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#51 Posted by Chibi_cute (4523 posts) - - Show Bio

Even the mighty shenron is pretty scared of bills when he saw him.

#52 Posted by DeathHero61 (6107 posts) - - Show Bio

Powerscaling can properly be used in this situation, bills beated the living shit out of gohan and full power goku who based on the majinn buu arc would destroy buu.

#53 Posted by Frozen (12930 posts) - - Show Bio

Bills. Not even the more powerful Kid Buu would stand much of a chance here.

#54 Posted by Stupid_People (1248 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

Bills. Not even the more powerful Kid Buu would stand much of a chance here.

That post is both true and false.

Bills. Yes.

Kid Buu > Buuhan? Keep dreaming.

#55 Posted by Dewin50 (387 posts) - - Show Bio

Wasn't it stated somewhere that Bills was stronger then Vegeto? And Vegeto stomps Buuhan soo.... Abc Logic <3

#56 Posted by Frozen (12930 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

Bills. Not even the more powerful Kid Buu would stand much of a chance here.

That post is both true and false.

Bills. Yes.

Kid Buu > Buuhan? Keep dreaming.

I meant Kidd Buu > Super Buu. The English dub clearly tells us that the Kid Buu incarnation was more powerful than Super Buu.

#57 Posted by Stupid_People (1248 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@stupid_people said:

@frozen said:

Bills. Not even the more powerful Kid Buu would stand much of a chance here.

That post is both true and false.

Bills. Yes.

Kid Buu > Buuhan? Keep dreaming.

I meant Kidd Buu > Super Buu. The English dub clearly tells us that the Kid Buu incarnation was more powerful than Super Buu.

"More Dangerous". Go ahead and look again.

#58 Posted by MetalGOD (378 posts) - - Show Bio

Bills destroys buu...

#59 Posted by Frozen (12930 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@stupid_people said:

@frozen said:

Bills. Not even the more powerful Kid Buu would stand much of a chance here.

That post is both true and false.

Bills. Yes.

Kid Buu > Buuhan? Keep dreaming.

I meant Kidd Buu > Super Buu. The English dub clearly tells us that the Kid Buu incarnation was more powerful than Super Buu.

"More Dangerous". Go ahead and look again.

Throughout the Buu saga it was heavily emphasized that he was more powerful than Super Buu, the younger he got the stronger he became. There isn't much more to it, there has been some debate that he was less powerful but it doesn't add up - the Kidd Buu incarnation was more powerful physically and caused more danger.

#60 Edited by Jgames (1682 posts) - - Show Bio

If we using the anime buuhan, he might win due to the fact he was universe level, destroying all of reality if it wasn't for vegito, but cannon buu losed

#61 Edited by Stupid_People (1248 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: I like how none of that isn't opinion and has any weight in a debate.

He was stated to be more "dangerous" because he would just blow up planets without a thought. Which is exactly what he did, unlike Super Buu who liked a challenge.

#62 Posted by Anime2114 (538 posts) - - Show Bio

Bills 100%>Bills 70%>SSJGGoku 100%>SSJG Goku 80%>>>SSJ Vegito>>>Buuhan

#63 Edited by Frozen (12930 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: I like how none of that isn't opinion and has any weight in a debate.

He was stated to be more "dangerous" because he would just blow up planets without a thought. Which is exactly what he did, unlike Super Buu who liked a challenge.

I never said that. I said that 'there isn't much more to it' - there isn't much more to what I can say really, it was emphasized enough in DBZ as it is. Kid Buu was able to fight at faster speeds and fought SSJ3 Goku. Super Buu may have been more composed, but that doesn't mean he is more powerful than Kid Buu.

#64 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9601 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen:

Kid Buu is not stronger than Super Buu. Super Buu would mutilate kid buu. Go read the manga, because the anime completely screws up an important look at their power difference. In the manga, Goku was afraid to fight Super Buu with Vegetas help even though he also had access to ssj3. However, neither Goku or vegetal had any qualms over taking kid buu on alone...they even played rock/paper/scissors to see who would go first. But, in the manga they completely screw this up by making ssj3 Goku take an buutenks.....

Also, Bills should win but not as easily as what everyone is saying. Buuhan is the second strongest character in the dbz main series. The beating Bills gave ssj3 Goku, is no worse than the one Buuhan would give. There is no exact multiplier for how much stronger Buu gets post-absorbtion so we don't know how much stronger Buuhan is compared to Mystic Gohan. All we do know is that Gohan went from stomping super buu to being stomped after super buu absorbed the much weaker ssj 3 gotenks. And then he goes an absorbs the strongest non-fused character to become buuhan. He, like vejito, was alone in his power class so we have no one to compare him too. Who's to say that he couldn't stomp all the Z-fighters similar to how Bills did? And I don't recall Bills being confirmed stronger than Vegito...ever. But anyways, Bills wins.

#65 Edited by Frozen (12930 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen:

Kid Buu is not stronger than Super Buu. Super Buu would mutilate kid buu. Go read the manga, because the anime completely screws up an important look at their power difference. In the manga, Goku was afraid to fight Super Buu with Vegetas help even though he also had access to ssj3. However, neither Goku or vegetal had any qualms over taking kid buu on alone...they even played rock/paper/scissors to see who would go first. But, in the manga they completely screw this up by making ssj3 Goku take an buutenks.....

Honestly, I haven't read any DBZ manga, so my bad on that. But the English dub emphasized Kid Buu's superiority. Which version are you accounting for though? The cartoon shows that Kid Buu is more powerful while the Manga implies Super Buu is more powerful, does this necessarily mean that only one version can be right?

#66 Edited by reaverlation (15616 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: The Manga is the original source. The Manga supersedes everything else DB/Z related and is the thing to use when debating DB/Z as the anime isn't as accurate 100% from the original source.

#67 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9601 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

@frozen:

Kid Buu is not stronger than Super Buu. Super Buu would mutilate kid buu. Go read the manga, because the anime completely screws up an important look at their power difference. In the manga, Goku was afraid to fight Super Buu with Vegetas help even though he also had access to ssj3. However, neither Goku or vegetal had any qualms over taking kid buu on alone...they even played rock/paper/scissors to see who would go first. But, in the manga they completely screw this up by making ssj3 Goku take an buutenks.....

Honestly, I haven't read any DBZ manga, so my bad on that. But the English dub emphasized Kid Buu's superiority. Which version are you accounting for though? The cartoon shows that Kid Buu is more powerful while the Manga implies Super Buu is more powerful, does this necessarily mean that only one version can be right?

Yeah, the english dub did seem to make kid buu out as the strongest (even though it makes no sense) but, unless its specifically stated, the most canon version takes precedence (the manga). I take the manga over the anime since its easier to debate and actually has less inconsistencies.

#68 Posted by Anime2114 (538 posts) - - Show Bio

This fight is like Buuhan vs Cell or Cell vs Frieza. It's an easy win for Bills. AT said SSJG Goku equaled 60% of Bills, and at just 80%, Goku said it was a level of power he didn't know could exist.

#69 Posted by Frozen (12930 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: The Manga is the original source. The Manga supersedes everything else DB/Z related and is the thing to use when debating DB/Z as the anime isn't as accurate 100% from the original source.

Fair enough.

@frozen said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

@frozen:

Kid Buu is not stronger than Super Buu. Super Buu would mutilate kid buu. Go read the manga, because the anime completely screws up an important look at their power difference. In the manga, Goku was afraid to fight Super Buu with Vegetas help even though he also had access to ssj3. However, neither Goku or vegetal had any qualms over taking kid buu on alone...they even played rock/paper/scissors to see who would go first. But, in the manga they completely screw this up by making ssj3 Goku take an buutenks.....

Honestly, I haven't read any DBZ manga, so my bad on that. But the English dub emphasized Kid Buu's superiority. Which version are you accounting for though? The cartoon shows that Kid Buu is more powerful while the Manga implies Super Buu is more powerful, does this necessarily mean that only one version can be right?

Yeah, the english dub did seem to make kid buu out as the strongest (even though it makes no sense) but, unless its specifically stated, the most canon version takes precedence (the manga). I take the manga over the anime since its easier to debate and actually has less inconsistencies.

It definitely did, it emphasized that the younger he became the more powerful (or dangerous). Was it ever specifically stated in the manga that Kid Buu is the weaker incarnation?

#70 Posted by Anime2114 (538 posts) - - Show Bio

It was stated that the Kai's weakened him and that he was the most dangerous.

#71 Edited by Stupid_People (1248 posts) - - Show Bio

It was stated that the Kai's weakened him and that he was the most dangerous.

The Kai's didnt weaken him. The Grand Supreme Kai did that. His kind nature and physique clouded Buu's mind and Body and didnt allow him to access his full power or his dangerous mind.

#72 Edited by buttersdaman000 (9601 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

Yeah, the english dub did seem to make kid buu out as the strongest (even though it makes no sense) but, unless its specifically stated, the most canon version takes precedence (the manga). I take the manga over the anime since its easier to debate and actually has less inconsistencies.

It definitely did, it emphasized that the younger he became the more powerful (or dangerous). Was it ever specifically stated in the manga that Kid Buu is the weaker incarnation?

I think in the manga it was stated that he was crazier and a lot more dangerous. There was no exact, specific statement that kid buu is weaker but all signs point to it.

#73 Edited by Anime2114 (538 posts) - - Show Bio

It's implied throughout the series that Kai energy is harmful to Buu. In the official Viz translation Old Kai says the soulS, plural:

http://s868.photobucket.com/user/goku111397/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps74d91b34.jpg.html

And before that Babidi and Dabura say they can't use Supreme Kai or Kibito's energy:

http://s868.photobucket.com/user/goku111397/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps7a0c148b.jpg.html

#74 Posted by Frozen (12930 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

Yeah, the english dub did seem to make kid buu out as the strongest (even though it makes no sense) but, unless its specifically stated, the most canon version takes precedence (the manga). I take the manga over the anime since its easier to debate and actually has less inconsistencies.

It definitely did, it emphasized that the younger he became the more powerful (or dangerous). Was it ever specifically stated in the manga that Kid Buu is the weaker incarnation?

I think in the manga it was stated that he was crazier and a lot more dangerous. There was no exact, specific statement that kid buu is weaker but all signs point to it.

It is true that he is more dangerous, but why would he actually be weaker than Super Buu? Surely he evolves to become stronger than his past-selves (this is why I think the anime storywise may have done it better, or so it sounds). So both were afraid of Super Buu but not Kid Buu, was this a genuine concern or did they simply underestimate Kid Buu? I guess I should read up on the manga, were there any other signs that eluded to Kid Buu being weaker?

#75 Posted by Anime2114 (538 posts) - - Show Bio

The only other thing is Goku telling Vegeta they are to weak to beat him, however when Buu appears they only turn SSJ and Goku even says "We'll find an exit when we defeat you"

#76 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9601 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

@frozen said:

Yeah, the english dub did seem to make kid buu out as the strongest (even though it makes no sense) but, unless its specifically stated, the most canon version takes precedence (the manga). I take the manga over the anime since its easier to debate and actually has less inconsistencies.

It definitely did, it emphasized that the younger he became the more powerful (or dangerous). Was it ever specifically stated in the manga that Kid Buu is the weaker incarnation?

I think in the manga it was stated that he was crazier and a lot more dangerous. There was no exact, specific statement that kid buu is weaker but all signs point to it.

It is true that he is more dangerous, but why would he actually be weaker than Super Buu? Surely he evolves to become stronger than his past-selves (this is why I think the anime storywise may have done it better, or so it sounds). So both were afraid of Super Buu but not Kid Buu, was this a genuine concern or did they simply underestimate Kid Buu? I guess I should read up on the manga, were there any other signs that eluded to Kid Buu being weaker?

Well, Kid Buu is the original, crazy version of Buu. The Majin Buu that we're first introduced to is Kid buu after he absorbed the kais. He is a much more innocent version of buu, with a stronger good side and is roughly as strong as kid buu. Then, when Hercule and Bee are attacked the evil part of buu separates, and you have fat buu (majin buu just not evil), and evil buu, the gray skinny one. Then evil buu defeats and eats fat buu, resulting in super buu, the combined buus with a dominant, controlled evil side. He is much stronger than any of the previous buus due to containing a lot more power without any innocence to hold him back. And from there you get the other buus like buuhan. So, the anime actually screwed it up by making kid buu the strongest. And no, Goku and Vegeta legit did not want to face Super buu. It would have been suicide. They only faced kid buu because they could tell he was a lot weaker albeit more dangerous due to his craziness.

#77 Posted by reaverlation (15616 posts) - - Show Bio

@stupid_people: @frozen: @buttersdaman000: Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7

Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “

Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “

Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “

Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”

Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption[s]…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Quotes from the manga itself

#78 Edited by Frozen (12930 posts) - - Show Bio
#79 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9601 posts) - - Show Bio
#80 Edited by DbzFan0304 (38 posts) - - Show Bio

As shown above with the translations, Kibitoshin says "by going so far as to lower his power through absorption[s]" Plus, Goku and Vegeta hadn't planned on fighting Kid Buu, they told Kibitoshin not to worry because Buu couldn't get there and they would come up with a plan.

#81 Posted by LiquidNazo (361 posts) - - Show Bio
#82 Edited by thelocust619 (2231 posts) - - Show Bio

Look, guys...the percentages went exact but they'll give you an idea of what's going on here:

1. Original Buu (kid buu): 100%

2. Kid Buu + Northern Kai = Hulking Buu: 125%

3. Hulking Buu + Southern Kai =Fat Buu (suppressed by S. Kai): 75%

4. Fat Buu splits into Good (suppressed) and Evil (not suppressed). Evil + Good = Super Buu (not suppressed anymore) 150%

5. Super Buu + Gotenks = Buutenks: 175%

6. Buutenks + Piccolo = Buucolo: 185%

7. Buucolo + Gohan = Buuhan: 220%

9. Buuhan - [Piccolo, Gohan, Gotenks, Fat buu (Southern Kai + Northern Kai)]= kid buu: 100%

#83 Edited by reaverlation (15616 posts) - - Show Bio

@thelocust619: It was Southern Kai who turned Kid Buu into Buff Buu.Also Fat Buu varies as his power level increases the more he rages(From when he came out the ball to fighting SSJ3 Goku).Also Super Buu is still suppressed as well as Buff Buu=Super Buu unsuppressed. Also Buucollo should be stronger than Super Buu by a margin atomically small.The last one I don't understand as it looks like you're saying Buuhan=Kid Buu?Because that's completely off by a giant margin

#84 Posted by Limilicious (320 posts) - - Show Bio

@thelocust619: It was Southern Kai who turned Kid Buu into Buff Buu.Also Fat Buu varies as his power level increases the more he rages(From when he came out the ball to fighting SSJ3 Goku).Also Super Buu is still suppressed as well as Buff Buu=Super Buu unsuppressed. Also Buucollo should be stronger than Super Buu by a margin atomically small.The last one I don't understand as it looks like you're saying Buuhan=Kid Buu?Because that's completely off by a giant margin

This should be easier.

Buuhan (minus) [Piccolo, Gohan, Gotenks, Fat buu (Southern Kai + Northern Kai)] = kid buu: 100%

Percentage doesn't really matter as he's just trying to do a numerical graphical representation of the ups and downs of Buu. Though you are correct, Buucolo should be in between Super Buu and Buutenks rather than just adding Piccolo on top of Buutenks. I believe, so correct me if I am wrong, Buucolo kicked in because Piccolo>Goten+Trunks, which means the 25% buff from Gotenks disappears to like nothing.

#85 Posted by thelocust619 (2231 posts) - - Show Bio

@reaverlation: It was Southern Kai who turned Kid Buu into Buff Buu.Also Fat Buu varies as his power level increases the more he rages(From when he came out the ball to fighting SSJ3 Goku).Also Super Buu is still suppressed as well as Buff Buu=Super Buu unsuppressed. Also Buucollo should be stronger than Super Buu by a margin atomically small.The last one I don't understand as it looks like you're saying Buuhan=Kid Buu?Because that's completely off by a giant margin

.

No, I said Buuhan - everyone = kid buu

But regardless I was only throwing down a rough generalization so peeps who don't know can get the idea. Its hard to do it 100% accurate without a pie chart. However, yea Fat Buu can power up, he's suppressed. Basically any Buu that contains the fat kai is somewhat suppressed. I may have mixed up which kai did what but its Aight for remembering one-time characters after years lol like I said, I wasn't going for perfect. If you wanna edit it go ahead

#86 Edited by reaverlation (15616 posts) - - Show Bio

@thelocust619: Just fixing minor mistakes but nonetheless it showed some accurate power portrayals.Maybe @limilicious can help as this is my last post for a while as I won't be on CV(might post something once in a while though) :)

#87 Edited by thelocust619 (2231 posts) - - Show Bio

@limilicious: I might have mixed up when Piccolo got absorbed, but the only thing Buu really benefited from was his intelligence. Piccolo's last solid fight was against semi-perfect cell n he hasn't really shown much after that I recall, so the power increase from him was negligible. Gotenks was actually a greater increase, as SSJ3 Gotenks roughly = Super Buu, so that's basically a 2x power increase, then Piccolo who at that point is irrelevant power-wise, then Gohan who was even stronger than Buu. So by that point he was waaaaay in the green (>100%) even with the suppression handicap from N kai, supporting the Super Buu>kid buu case

#88 Posted by Limilicious (320 posts) - - Show Bio

@thelocust619: Yeah, I agree with what you're saying and that Super Buu > Kid Buu as well as how strong Gotenks and Gohan are. I think there was a slight misunderstanding. I was referring to what's in Buucolo that resulted in Buucolo. When I wrote Goten+Trunks, I literally meant Goten+Trunks and not Gotenks. When the fusion expired, Gotenks was split apart and became the two weaker counterparts. So inside Buucolo is actually Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo with Piccolo being arguably the strongest. Piccolo's last fight was against semi-perfect Cell, which was stronger than Android 18, which is arguably stronger or just as strong as the two kids.

So, Any Buu >>>>> Piccolo > Trunks > Goten. So you're right, any increase by Piccolo or Trunks or Goten (or all three) are negligible but it shouldn't be added on top of Buutenks. So for a non-accurate representation of the increases, it should be something like this instead:

5. Super Buu + Gotenks = Buutenks: 175%

6. Super Buu + Piccolo + Trunks + Goten = Buucolo: 155% (Dropping down in power level to just slightly above Super Buu and 5% is just a nice easy number but 0% is a better representation.)

#89 Edited by LiquidNazo (361 posts) - - Show Bio