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#1 Edited by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

Broken Bludhaven:

The Semi Final Battle takes place in the Bludhaven after Chemo's big boom. The area is filled with radiation and toxic chemicals and is a generally awful place to be. The area is devoid of all life and due to the containment field, you cannot leave the area regardless of powers.

Chemo's Heart lies at the center of the map, obtaining it will allow you to reduce the radiation around your team. Getting to it will be difficult because it is emitting radiation at doses that will kill an unprotected human in half a second.

Rules:

  • No BFR is allowed but if you can manage to put a relatively unprotected person into the toxic goo it will function as you might expect.
  • No Tele-BFR or Dismemberment
  • Win is by Death, Incapacitation, or KO
  • Each team gets 5 minutes prep and basic info about the enemy team. The Basic Info includes names, pictures, and abiities. Bought Equipment is not known until you engage it. Obviously, if you have the perks that grant you more prep or knowledge, you get that instead.
  • The First Team Listed starts on the left while the Second Team Listed starts on the right.
  • Bought Items are listed in Parentheses. 2nd round items are listed in the second set of parentheses. 3rd round items are listed in the third set of parentheses.

@higorm

  • Bane - Venom Mask, Assault Rifle (Battle Computer, 10 T-Spheres, Old Power Forcefield and Taser, Streamsword) (Insider Suit, Webshooter) (2 S.P.I.N. Tech Darts, Crystal Glasses, Reversing Mirror, Eye of Dashi)
  • Gorgon - (Phoenix Fragment, Phoenix Blade) (Webshooter) (2 S.P.I.N. Tech Darts, Ninja Sash, Kuzusu Atom)
  • Omega Red - (Rage of Kratos: Golden Fleece, Oathstone, Blades of Exile, Southern Cross' Cane) (Webshooter) (2 S.P.I.N. Tech Darts, Sapphire Dragon, Disintegration, Matter Rearrangement, Vortex, and Impact Rings)
  • Mr. Negative - (Soulsword and Armor) (Talismans, Webshooter) (2 S.P.I.N. Tech Darts, Shadow Slicer, Shroud of Shadows, Shadow of Fear, Mento-Intensifier and Darkness Ring)
  • Spider Woman (Veranke) - (Amulet of Isis) (Webshooter) (10 Rings of the Mandarin, 2 S.P.I.N. Tech Darts, Shard of Lightning, Ice, Flame, Lightning, and Light Rings)

Achievements:

  • Evil Always Wins
  • Absolute Power

vs.

@dredeuced

  • Blink - (Phoenix Fragment, 1 T-sphere, Golden Finger, Reversing Mirror, Wushan Geyser) (Emperor Scorpion, Shard of Lightning, Crystal Glasses, Serpent's Tail)
  • Alita - Tuned Rifle, Pistol, Damascus Blade, Fireflies ,Missile Bees, Arachnos, Laser Bugs, Lice Probes, Mono-Molecular Filament grappling hook, Smoke Grenades (Amazon Armory, 2 T-Spheres, 10 Talismans, Hoduku Mouse, Golden Tiger Claws) (Tactigon) (Moonstone, Reversing Mirror)
  • Zazie - Exo-Arms, Non-Electromagnetic Bullets, Zanber KZ90 (10mm Rifle with Grenade Launcher and Combat blade), Multi-Stack Shotgun, Two Pistols, Mono-Molecular filament Net Trap, Frag Grenades, Thermite Grenades, Smoke Grenades, Hovering smart-fuse missiles, Land Mines, Demolition Cable, Blast Shield, Magnum loaded with Osmium Bullets, Berserker Corruption Bullets, Berserker Neutralizing bullets, Plastic Explosive Ammo and Ceramic Combat Knife (Amazon Armory, 2 T-Spheres, Pym Particles, Snake Talisman, Pig Talisman, Dog Talisman, Mind Reader Conch) (Moonstone, Adamantium Ammunition)
  • Zealot -Kusar Blades, Automatic Rifle (Soul Sword and Eldritch Armor, 3 T-Spheres, Shard of Lightning, Kuzusu Atom, 10 Talismans) (Staff of One) (Emperor Scorpion, Crystal Glasses, Serpent's Tail)
  • Nemesis - Creation Blades (Quantum Bands, 2 T-Spheres, Crystal Glasses, Shadow of Fear, Horse Talisman) (Emperor Scorpion, Sapphire Dragon, Reversing Mirror)
  • The Helmet of Jong, Two Ton Tunic, Third Arm Sash, Golden Tiger Claws, Ring of Nine Dragons, Fist of Tebigong, Shroud of Shadows, Shard of Lightning, Ruby of Ramses, Glove of Jisaku, and Heart of Jong

Achievements:

  • Girl Power
  • Meek Inherit Earth
#2 Edited by Dredeuced (5833 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm I figure I'll let you go first since you've got the extra hour of prep. My team will basically just go over the full knowledge on your team with the 5 minutes and prepare to open up with their Shen Gong Wu.

edit: Oh also I well spend my banked point on Adamantium Ammo for Zazie.

#3 Posted by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced:

I am going to edit that change into the OP.

#4 Posted by HigorM (4227 posts) - - Show Bio
#5 Posted by HigorM (4227 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: If you need any extra info about my team just ask okay? I will go straight up to my strategy..

#6 Posted by i_like_swords (17333 posts) - - Show Bio

As requested, bump.

Online
#7 Posted by Dredeuced (5833 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm said:

@dredeuced: If you need any extra info about my team just ask okay? I will go straight up to my strategy..

I'll ask if something arises.

#8 Edited by HigorM (4227 posts) - - Show Bio

Without further ado..

Let's get to what really matters!

@dredeuced sorry for the delay

PS: can you give me some info about Zazie and Alita?

___________________________

TEAM @higorm

  • Bane - Venom Mask, Assault Rifle (Battle Computer, 10 T-Spheres, Old Power Forcefield and Taser, Streamsword) (Insider Suit, Webshooter) (2 S.P.I.N. Tech Darts, Crystal Glasses, Reversing Mirror, Eye of Dashi)
  • Gorgon - (Phoenix Fragment, Phoenix Blade) (Webshooter) (2 S.P.I.N. Tech Darts, Ninja Sash, Kuzusu Atom)
  • Omega Red - (Rage of Kratos: Golden Fleece, Oathstone, Blades of Exile, Southern Cross' Cane) (Webshooter) (2 S.P.I.N. Tech Darts, Sapphire Dragon, Disintegration, Matter Rearrangement, Vortex, and Impact Rings)
  • Mr. Negative - (Soulsword and Armor) (Talismans, Webshooter) (2 S.P.I.N. Tech Darts, Shadow Slicer, Shroud of Shadows, Shadow of Fear, Mento-Intensifier and Darkness Ring)
  • Spider Woman (Veranke) - (Amulet of Isis) (Webshooter) (10 Rings of the Mandarin, 2 S.P.I.N. Tech Darts, Shard of Lightning, Ice, Flame, Lightning, and Light Rings)

Achievements:

  • Evil Always Wins - Choosing only villains earns you 1 Hour of Prep.
  • Absolute Power - Choosing only genetically empowered people earns you 5 shots of MGH that will double the effectiveness of your powers.

Team Chimistry

You may think that my team could have some problems to work together. since they´re all villains without morals. The thing is that all of them worked alongside other evil characters without any problem. Bane already manage to work a plan that lead him to take over Gotham after the events of Knight Fall when he succeeded to release all criminals from the prison and later broke the Batman. Gorgon was HYDRA and HAND servant, Omega Red have always worked following orders, and Spider-Woman tooked part to fight heroes during the Secret Invsion.

Initial Considerations

So my team will use the 1 hour for preparation and build a solid game plan to defeat the enemy team, with Bane being responsible for this task, he will use the battle computer to get all the info he needs from the enemies, and the and the Crystal Glasses Shen Gong Wu leaving the team prepared to counteract any attack your team may utilize, therefore there are no surprises you can bring to the table, even the special items, since the device and the Crystal Glasses gives that kind of info too. You may also note that I have more time to properly use those items for my advantage.

1 HOUR FOR PREP

So we have time to prepare ourselves to this sanguinary fight. But while your team have 5 minutes, my team have the same 5 minutes plus 1 more hour thanks to the achievement. That would mean nothing if I didn´t have a genius level and extremely experienced character on my team which is Bane, the man who broke the Bat. So I got a considerable time scheme a game plan to defeat the enemy team, but not only that, I have ways to use it successfully since Bane is one of the most cunning and disciplined minds within the DC universe. He strongly focuses on his goals without any obsessive tendencies clouding his judgments. With his coordinated mindset, Bane was also capable of deducing Batman's identity with little support or investigation. All that without special items to increase his capabilities to unimaginable levels. Bane also has a photographic memory, capable of easily studying and fully reading and understanding the actions and the physical movements of another individual. But this is not all about Bane, he is a key character for sure but his teammates are as important as he is since they possess unique capabilities that will help the team win this battle.

This 1 hour will be enough time for my team members to use activate their items as well as make combinations with them, which leads me to the items usage explanation:

BANE

Considering that:

Each team gets 5 minutes prep and basic info about the enemy team. The Basic Info includes names, pictures, and abiities. Bought Equipment is not known until you engage it. Obviously, if you have the perks that grant you more prep or knowledge, you get that instead.

Will use the battle computer to complement the information given by the OP, since with this device, he is able to:

So this is a clear advantage for me no matter what.

But I don´t stop there, beyond this awesome device, I have an equally awesome item, which is the Shen Gong Wu Crystal Glasses:

The Crystal Glasses are a Shen Gong Wu that allows the wearer to see into the future, near or distant. They show the future as long as are worn.

So with the combination of a Battle Computer + Crystal Glasses, Bane is able to get full knowledge about the enemy team. So we are equally matched in that department, since you have the achievement:

Meek Inherit Earth – Choosing only heroes earns you Full Knowledge on the opposing team.

So that achievement doesn´t give you an advantage since I have means to get full knowledge too.

Next, Bane will activate the Old Power Forcefield, Taser as well as wield the Streamsword, which combined gives Bane 100+ tons strength, but not only that as we can see below:

Old Power Abilities

The Old Power is a potent source of energy that can be tapped into by an alien race called, The Shadow People. The Old Power boosts the following abilities: strength, durability, healing along with many others if wielded properly. Old power also allows the wielder to be able to manipulate the earth. As well as granting them these abilities, the Old Power can turn them into a "Stone"-form were their body is literally transformed into stone and grants them an incredible boost in strength and durability, changing someone about as strong as Captain America (who can lift 1200 lbs.) and boosting their strength to 100 tons. In an issue of Incredible Hulks, Skaar managed to boost his strength (from about 100 tons) to 100 trillion tons - the equvialent of 200 quadrillion pounds. After someone who has used the Old Power dies, they can use the energy of the planet they died on to temporarily come back to life, in a fashion that their body becomes composed of stone and they have a small electric field surrounding them. Skaar was recently killed, but came back a few panels later completely reformed from stone, so it is presumed such a process can be permanent.

So with this items Bane possess 100+ tons strength, durability, healing and earth manipulation.

I´m not saying that Bane will be at Skaar´s level, because the Old power booster Skaar from 100 tons to about 100 trillion tons, I´m just saying Bane can reach 100+ tons since he possess 2-3 tons with the Venom, plus the MGH shot can double that to 4-5 tons, so with the Old Power he can reach 100+ tons.

Old Power Forcefield and Taser

Bruce Banner's personal shield that he uses to protect him from the dangers all around him. It absorbs both Gamma Radiation and Old Power. Banner's personal shields give him the following:

-Force Field: Protection against both Physical and Energy attacks.

-Energy Absorption: The shield has ability to absorb energy. Absorbed Energy can be redirected into the force field, raising that ability score by +1cs above it's maximum ability for 4 rounds or until the 400 points of energy has been depleted.

-Strength Augmentation: Can redirected the protective shields to temporarily augment his Strength.

He can also expand it to cover his team members:

A great example of what the Old Power Taser can do:

The Streamsword is an an ancient weapon vested with the Old Power.

Insider Suit + Eye of Dashi (Shen Gong Wu)

Bane will use the Eye of Dashi to create an unlimited source of energy to the suit, since it requires energy to recharge the power supply. But that´s not a problem anymore.

Built with a different appearance than the traditional Batsuit, the Insider uniform enables the wearer to mimic a selection of super-abilities through the use of high-powered technology, although the suit's power is limited; requiring a recharge-time after the usage of each ability. So that means I don´t need to recharge so Bane can use all his new super power abilities whenever he want to.

Insider Suit info:

While agile enough for gymnastic manoeuvres, the suit has enough armour to protect the wearer from sword strikes or even take the brunt of a missile blast. The suit can recharge its power supply by either plugging into an external power source or by absorbing energy that is being directed upon it. The suit also enables a direct link to a JLA teleporter, enabling the wearer to hack into the Justice League's teleportation system and teleport anywhere on the planet, although this, too, uses power.

Other abilities include: ability to trace frequencies, and selection of optical visions for infrared to movement tracking and normal.

"Super-Power" Abilities

Spectral Mode: Designed for ideal night operation through night vision lenses and light and sound dampening technology.

Speed Force Mode: Inspired by the Flash, the suit gives the wearer limited access to the Speed Force, accelerating their movements beyond human speed.

Heat Vision Mode: Inspired by the Kryptonian ability, the suit expels a concentrated beam of heat from the eye lenses, although a larger blast can be expelled through the helmet's central "eye" also.

Will Power Mode: Inspired by the Green Lantern rings, the suit possesses a finger-mounted energy weapon that mimics an Oan power ring's ability to fire a concentrated blast of energy at an opponent.

Camouflage Mode: Inspired by the Martian Manhunter, the suit enables the wearer to turn invisible for a set period of time.

Veritas Mode: Inspired by Wonder Woman's Lasso of Truth, the suit possesses a filament cord that is lined with tactile sensors enabling it to act as a polygraph machine to descern if the individual trapped within it is telling the truth. Like Wonder Girl's lasso, the wearer can also send an electric shock down the cord to shock the entrapped individual.

Flight Mode: A standard ability amongst meta-class superheroes, the suit possesses the power of flight through the manipulation of gravity and magnetic forces.

Teleportation:3-meter radius and carrying other individuals away.

Eye of Dashi:

It released bolts of electricity and generated unlimited power into a desired object.

T- SPHERES:

Bane can and will controle them mentally to protect himself and his teammates from all kinds of danger, like energy, physhical and other attacks, since he can create force fields with them:

But the most important, considering this environment, the T-Mask protects the user against chemicals. (JSA All-Stars #7)

Bane will use the T-Spheres to create advanced T-Masks since Mr. Terrific's T-mask is actually one of his T-Spheres:

This devices are capable of the following:

T-Spheres: floating robotic spheres can do many things including project holographic images, create laser grids, serve as cameras, link with outside data networks, allowing him to fly by bearing his weight, self-destruct, generate powerful electrical charges,and strike as flying projectile weapons. They respond to his mental and vocal commands.

T-Mask: He is invisible to all forms of electronic detection. This ability is tied to nanotechnology woven into his specially designed "T-Mask" (which is molecular-bonded to his face and can disappear at will) and costume. Mr. Terrific was apparently the only super-hero whom the OMACs could not detect. His mask also protects his face from chemicals and relays mental commands to his T-Spheres by detecting the subtle movements on his face. The mask works in conjunction with an ear piece to acts as a communications system. Through his mask, Holt can change instantaneously into costume and back again.

Holt's mask also doubles as a encephalic broadcaster, picking up aggregate thought-waves, allowing him to communicate with his T-Spheres and even project a speaking hologram of himself, even if he is injured or too weak to speak.

The T-Spheres have multiple function,like create the same neural dampening field tha prevent Michael being mind controlled and apply to a large area:

T-Mask can see the all Eletormagnetic Spectrum, so there´s no place to hide here:

GORGON

Will use the Ninja Sash to make two doubles of himself:

Main Objectives

  • Protect the team from telephatic assaults.
  • Seek to combat Blink since she also possess a Phoenix Fragment.
  • Use the 2 SPIN tech darts in the middle of the battle to depower the enemy.

About the S.P.I.N Tech:

The Super Power Inhibiting Nanobot Technology is used by the Initiative to depower heroes and villain alike who don't comply with the SHRA.

Capabilities

The S.P.I.N. Tech are nanobots developed by Iron Man that is used to depower individuals with superpowers and also disable technology-based individuals such as War Machine. The nanobots are loaded to a adamantium-tipped tranquilizer shots and can be fired in any firearm. The tech can also be DNA-specific to a certain target to prevent friendly-fire and can be remotely shut down which means that those shot be the nanobots can regain their powers back. When Iron Man had worries about the effect of the nanobots on the Hulk, it could mean that the S.P.I.N. tech is not effective to superhumans that can increase their powers.

  • Will combine the Kuzusu Atom with his own phoenix power through the phoenix blade to astoundingly increase his attack power output.

The Phoenix Blade:

Powers

While in it original state the blade could channel the entire might of the Phoenix Force, allowing it to cut through all form of matter and produce a large explosion while doing this its power was diminished once the Phoenix Force left its host, however a portion of it survived. With this portion the blade constantly glows blue and has the power to cut through many materials yet not the same level it once could, as shown no one else other than the descendants of Rook'shir can hold the blade and even Polaris while trying to lift the blade with her powers was repealed back.

Gorgon should have no problem wielding the blade, in fact, he is already possess swordsmaship skills, and the blade open the users mind to all those who had previously carried it, as well as taught him how to use it. Korvus, without a phoenix fragment, using just his own notwithstanding skill, with the blade, easily bested Havok, Polaris, Nightcrawler and Warpath combined.

#9 Posted by HigorM (4227 posts) - - Show Bio

Continuing.. (I will edit this again later)

Omega Red

Will use the Oath Stone of Orkos: Given to Kratos by Orkos, this item has the power to create a clone of its wielder, so he can make a copy of himself, so by my count you have so far instead of 5, a total of 8 enemies to deal with, my original five plus 2 Gorgon and 1 Omega Red copy. This means you are numeric outmatched from the beginning (point for me :P)

Once again he will start to release his death spores all over the place, affecting anyone who comes close unguarded. After that, they will be ready to engage anyone in a fight using the tentacles to life drain the enemy. They can also telekinectic powers to protect themselves. Remember that death spores aren´t regular gases.

Mr. Negative

Mister Negative can generate and control the Darkforce, manifesting it as the photographic negative of black electrical energy. He uses this unique form of Darkforce for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to: Shapeshifting, Object Empowerment, Person Empowerment/Healing Touch, Person Empowerment/Corrupting Touch. His Dark powers are stronger then even since the Soulsword/Eldrich Armor and Talismans greatly increases his powers.

Spider Woman (Veranke)

is there to give some backup to her team using both her spider-woman powers as well as the new ones from the amulet of isis. So she can fly and from the sky generating great amounts of eletrical discharges through a combination of both venom blasts and lightning bolts, as well as using powerfull wind bursts to push the enemies off their balance. She can also make use of her pheromones to compromise enemies who may be close to her or even away since she can manipulate the wind to make it reach the enemy.

#10 Edited by Dredeuced (5833 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

Team Chimistry

You may think that my team could have some problems to work together. since they´re all villains without morals. The thing is that all of them worked alongside other evil characters without any problem. Bane already manage to work a plan that lead him to take over Gotham after the events of Knight Fall when he succeeded to release all criminals from the prison and later broke the Batman. Gorgon was HYDRA and HAND servant, Omega Red have always worked following orders, and Spider-Woman tooked part to fight heroes during the Secret Invsion.

I have no problems with your team's chemistry. Teams of villains happen all the time and practically everyone on your team has worked as a team before. Similarly with my team, only my team's morals line up a little more cleanly.

Initial Considerations

So my team will use the 1 hour for preparation and build a solid game plan to defeat the enemy team, with Bane being responsible for this task, he will use the battle computer to get all the info he needs from the enemies, and the and the Crystal Glasses Shen Gong Wu leaving the team prepared to counteract any attack your team may utilize, therefore there are no surprises you can bring to the table, even the special items, since the device and the Crystal Glasses gives that kind of info too. You may also note that I have more time to properly use those items for my advantage.

This is a stretch. The Crystal Glasses can and have been countered by the Reversing Mirror, of which I have 3. When you attempt to see the future, the reversing mirror will give your Bane the opposite future, GREATLY surprising him. Hell, the Staff of One itself is an incredibly versatile magical artifact that allows you to cast nearly any type of single word spell one time. Zealot is well versed in magical usage and could merely say "Deceive" to counter your Glasses' foresight. I'd also like to point out that my team has 3 crystal glasses of their own, though they might not use them if they see the Reversing Mirror come into play -- a bit of knowledge my team is fully aware of thanks to the Full Knowledge perk.

The time of the prep doesn't matter so long as what I do wouldn't take more than 5 minutes. And it won't.

1 HOUR FOR PREP

So we have time to prepare ourselves to this sanguinary fight. But while your team have 5 minutes, my team have the same 5 minutes plus 1 more hour thanks to the achievement. That would mean nothing if I didn´t have a genius level and extremely experienced character on my team which is Bane, the man who broke the Bat. So I got a considerable time scheme a game plan to defeat the enemy team, but not only that, I have ways to use it successfully since Bane is one of the most cunning and disciplined minds within the DC universe. He strongly focuses on his goals without any obsessive tendencies clouding his judgments. With his coordinated mindset, Bane was also capable of deducing Batman's identity with little support or investigation. All that without special items to increase his capabilities to unimaginable levels. Bane also has a photographic memory, capable of easily studying and fully reading and understanding the actions and the physical movements of another individual. But this is not all about Bane, he is a key character for sure but his teammates are as important as he is since they possess unique capabilities that will help the team win this battle.

This 1 hour will be enough time for my team members to use activate their items as well as make combinations with them, which leads me to the items usage explanation:

I'd like to point out that it doesn't matter how cunning and disciplined Bane is -- the plans still have to come from you. It's never been a winning strategy to go into a battle and say "My character is incredibly smart and would find a way to win." Zazie, Nemesis, and Zealot are all super geniuses in combat but pointing out the latter twos' thousands of years of experience is only pertinent if I can apply it to the situation.

As for prep, my team will assemble Mala Mala Jong using this list of items:

  • The Helmet of Jong, Two Ton Tunic, Third Arm Sash, Golden Tiger Claws, Ring of Nine Dragons, Fist of Tebigong, Kuzusu Atom, Shroud of Shadows, Shard of Lightning, Ruby of Ramses, Glove of Jisaku, and Heart of Jong

as seen here at 7:00 :

It only takes a few seconds to come to life and form. It will then use the Ring of Nine dragons to split itself up into 4 copies. 9:22:

My team has 3 emperor scorpions. Zealot will be the one to control the Mala Mala Jongs. Check 13:30 of the above video to see how it gives complete control.

Each Jong will have a shard of lightning which grant lightspeed movement, the golden tiger which grant teleportation, the Shroud of Shadows which allow invisibility, the Kuzusu Atom which is like the Eye of Dashi mentioned in your post, only much more destructive, and the Glove of Jisaku -- which is very important, as it will allow each Jong to steal your shen gong wu during the fight. While you may be able to reversing mirror one of the gloves, I doubt you can stop all four from jacking your Wu.

Nemesis will use her Emperor Scorpion to control the Sapphire Dragon:

The Sapphire Dragon is an evil magic dragon that turns anything it breathes on into a sapphire zombie. It has one noted weakness to soot, though I don't believe anyone on your team has soot projection as one of their powers. Nemesis will also give her second Creation Blade to Alita.

Thirdly, while you don't have it listed, you definitively have an emperor scorpion of your own considering you have a shen gong wu list. Blink will use my third Scorpion to counter any attempt your team tries to use their scorpion against my Shen Gong Wu. While this isn't necessarily part of prep, it felt pertinent to mention it during this part.

Considering that:

Each team gets 5 minutes prep and basic info about the enemy team. The Basic Info includes names, pictures, and abiities. Bought Equipment is not known until you engage it. Obviously, if you have the perks that grant you more prep or knowledge, you get that instead.

Will use the battle computer to complement the information given by the OP, since with this device, he is able to:

So this is a clear advantage for me no matter what.

You shouldn't say things like "No matter what," -- especially when it won't work. As you might be able to tell from the name, the Battle Computer uses technology to scan its opponents, determine its abilities, and play out scenarios in which you can win. Thankfully, all five members of my team have a T-Mask, which allows them complete protection from any technological scanning -- much like your battle computer. My team will also put 4 T-Masks on my Jongs, just for insurance against your tech, as everyone on my team has superior flight and firepower to the spheres in the other gear and it'd be nice to cover the bases on my prep.

But I don´t stop there, beyond this awesome device, I have an equally awesome item, which is the Shen Gong Wu Crystal Glasses:

The Crystal Glasses are a Shen Gong Wu that allows the wearer to see into the future, near or distant. They show the future as long as are worn.

So with the combination of a Battle Computer + Crystal Glasses, Bane is able to get full knowledge about the enemy team. So we are equally matched in that department, since you have the achievement:

Secondly, while I have already addressed two counters to the Glasses (reversing mirrors, counter spells) I would like to point out that the Glasses don't give you any specific information about my gear. They tell you the future, but that's hardly full knowledge.

For instance, if you foresaw Zealot using the Staff of One, it'd literally be useless -- the Staff of One can never cast the same spell twice. Seeing the future and seeing the Staff cast a specific spell will give you literally no knowledge about what else it is capable of. Another example is the Tactigon, which shapes itself into an effective weapon based on the enemy, meaning it never has to be the same weapon twice. There's a dozen more instances on my team where an item's versatility would make it so the Glasses clearly don't give full knowledge, even if they prevent one member of your team from being surprised -- assuming you ignore the counters I already issued.

I mean, I've got 3 Crystal Glasses, you can't expect me to not have thought of a counter for a piece of gear I hold in such high regard.

Meek Inherit Earth – Choosing only heroes earns you Full Knowledge on the opposing team.

So that achievement doesn´t give you an advantage since I have means to get full knowledge too.

I will contest it clearly does give me an advantage. I don't have to rely on counterable gear to give me information.

Next, Bane will activate the Old Power Forcefield, Taser as well as wield the Streamsword, which combined gives Bane 100+ tons strength, but not only that as we can see below:

Old Power Abilities

So with this items Bane possess 100+ tons strength, durability, healing and earth manipulation.

100 ton strength, durability, and regen, you say? Well let's compare it to each of my members stat buffs:

Blink: Phoenix Fragment has telekinetically overpowered Thor and granted relative immunity to all damage the Avengers could perform.

Alita: Amazon Armory provides a 10x strength increase and Alita's base strength is in the 15 tons range, as seen here:

So she matches up when it comes to raw power. Toss in the Moonstone which grants a significant strength increase (around 50 tonner). No matter which way you do the math, she's well over a 100 tonner.

When it comes to durability, she also has the Dog Talisman which grants her immortality, and the Hodoku Mouse, which can fix any object -- thankfully, Alita is a cyborg, so her whole body is an object that is repairable from non lethal damage by the mouse, giving her infinite cyborg-esque regen when combined with the Talisman. And finally, the Moonstone grants the ability to phase one's self intangible. Combined with Alita's molecular senses and her own inherent precognition(since I believe you can counter her crystal glasses), any attack that goes her away can be avoided with intangibility if regen, immortality, and super strength and durability aren't enough.

Zazie is also around a15 tonner (She can carry and fight with 10 tons of gear attached to her with no drop in efficacy) who has the Amazon Armory. She also comes equipped with the Pym Particles, which easily increase Pym's strength well over 100 fold. So that's 15(base) x 10armory x 100(pym particles) for somewhere around 15,000ton range when she fully increases her size via Particles. So she massively dwarfs anything resembling 100 tons. She, too, has a Moonstone and can go intangible at will and buff her already sky high stats. I don't quite want to apply the 50ish ton increase. Oh, and my second Dog Talisman.

It's basically like combining Wonder Woman, Moonstone, and Giant Man's durability all with a cyborg body at its base combined with Dog Talismans for immortality. Safe to say, both are absurdly stat enhanced. This also ignores the speed boosts these items give.

Zealot sadly does not have any major stat increases besides the Talismans, which do allow supersonic flight and roughly 10 tonner strength. Thankfully, she's more of my utility mage character. She can use the Staff of One to magically disable your own magical gear, or the Eldritch Blade to disable anything magical as well -- which is made even easier by the fact that she can become intangible with the Serpent's tail and move at Light speed with the Shard of Lightning.

Old Power Forcefield and Taser

Bruce Banner's personal shield that he uses to protect him from the dangers all around him. It absorbs both Gamma Radiation and Old Power. Banner's personal shields give him the following:

-Force Field: Protection against both Physical and Energy attacks.

-Energy Absorption: The shield has ability to absorb energy. Absorbed Energy can be redirected into the force field, raising that ability score by +1cs above it's maximum ability for 4 rounds or until the 400 points of energy has been depleted.

-Strength Augmentation: Can redirected the protective shields to temporarily augment his Strength.

He can also expand it to cover his team members:

This part's a little different and why I saved Nemesis for last. Nemesis has the Quantum Bands which allow absolutely absurd levels of energy manipulation. It's tanked blasts from guys who were meant to fight celestials before. While it's not technically a strength increase, the energy control allows something akin to empowered strikes that put her well above any of your typical 100 tonners -- not that she'd need to outmuscle anyone considering her Creation Blade will cut through any forcefield and durability.

As part of the annihilators, Quasar would frequently shield his teammates with his bands so the sharing is there -- though he never had to touch them to do it and I'd wager the Bands have significantly higher range. I think with the Bands, my team have a significant team wide support tool

A great example of what the Old Power Taser can do:

It can...completely fail to hurt Hercules? Okay. 2 of my characters are superior to Wonder Woman (zazie and alita), one of them is similar to Quasar, one of them is a phoenix host. All of these are more durable than herc so I'd imagine it'd be a useless attack, especially when my team is chock full of intangibility and, hell, Nemesis could just absorb the energy with her bands.

Bane will use the Eye of Dashi to create an unlimited source of energy to the suit, since it requires energy to recharge the power supply. But that´s not a problem anymore.

Built with a different appearance than the traditional Batsuit, the Insider uniform enables the wearer to mimic a selection of super-abilities through the use of high-powered technology, although the suit's power is limited; requiring a recharge-time after the usage of each ability. So that means I don´t need to recharge so Bane can use all his new super power abilities whenever he want to.

...Would this work? The Eye of Dashi has to be activated. Was there an episode of Xiaolin Showdown where Jack used it as an energy source? It sounds familiar but I'm not sure that's doable to the extent you're saying. It is an interesting idea, to say the least.

That said, good luck using the suit against my team. If you're in the suit, the only way to see people is through the suit's sensors, which my entire team will be invisible to thanks to T-masks. This combined with my disabling of the crystal glasses would make Bane effectively blind in the fight.

T- SPHERES:

Bane can and will controle them mentally to protect himself and his teammates from all kinds of danger, like energy, physhical and other attacks, since he can create force fields with them:

But the most important, considering this environment, the T-Mask protects the user against chemicals. (JSA All-Stars #7)

Bane will use the T-Spheres to create advanced T-Masks since Mr. Terrific's T-mask is actually one of his T-Spheres:

The T-Spheres have multiple function,like create the same neural dampening field tha prevent Michael being mind controlled and apply to a large area:

T-Mask can see the all Eletormagnetic Spectrum, so there´s no place to hide here:

The T-spheres forcefield capabilities aren't greatly tested. While they're strong enough to stop stuff like a car or destroy a tank, that's rather weak compared to my team. The only time I've seen the T-sphere do anything to a high durability opponent was when Terrific detonated on Captain Marvel and Black Adam, which merely knocked them back, and when he had like 20 of them shock Captain Nazi into submission -- a number you don't have and a relatively useless tactic against people who can go intangible or just destroy the spheres when they come at them. The alternate vision modes would be useless against a team equipped with T-masks.

I mean, touching on that, my entire team has t-spheres, too. This is all recreatable by my team so it's hardly an advantage. I'd even like to say that I think Nemesis, Zealot, Alita, and Zazie are all probably superior tech users to everyone on your team, considering two of them are made of future tech and Zealot and Nemesis have been dealing with superior Kheran tech for thousands of years, so they'd probably make use of the 1 month training more efficiently with them.

GORGON

Will use the Ninja Sash to make two doubles of himself:

Main Objectives

  • Protect the team from telephatic assaults.
  • Seek to combat Blink since she also possess a Phoenix Fragment.
  • Use the 2 SPIN tech darts in the middle of the battle to depower the enemy.

I'm gonna make a judgement call and say you probably can't duplicate the power of the Phoenix with a Shen Gong Wu. While I myself am using a duplication shen gong wu, I've only done it to other shen gong wu (otherwise I would've used the ring of nine dragons to make 9 Phoenix Fragment Blinks, which would be absurdly OP) which is something I can show it doing in the show itself. I'm pretty sure you're using a literally featless trading card item that only exists as a trading card, so we don't even know the mechanics of how it doubles things.

I mean you'd still have a second Gorgon and hell, it can probably duplicate any magical gear you have like the blade or the atom to go with it, but if we're allowed to dupe high tier items then I'm altering my prep to make 9 Phoenix Fragment Blinks who will absolutely crush your team. I think we can both agree that no one should be duping Phoenix Fragments.

Finally, yeah, I think that Gorgon and Blink kind of cancel each other out with the Phoenix Fragments. When Colossus and Magik had a falling out with the fragments they mutually KO'd each other and lost their phoenix powers.

The Spin Tech darts will be largely useless. The only person it'd even majorly affect would be Blink, as Zazie and Alita's bodies are cybernetic and my two Kherans would only lose a modest amount of strength and durability. Secondly, I mean, they're not particularly fast and can be destroyed mid air rather easily by basically anyone on my team.

Hell, Blink could possible just teleport the darts mid air to hit anyone on your team. She's literally teleported poison into someone's blood stream before (though that would be banned). This would be greatly more effective on your team, because, well, everyone on your team has a cancellable ability via SPIN because you have the Absolute Power perk.

Powers

While in it original state the blade could channel the entire might of the Phoenix Force, allowing it to cut through all form of matter and produce a large explosion while doing this its power was diminished once the Phoenix Force left its host, however a portion of it survived. With this portion the blade constantly glows blue and has the power to cut through many materials yet not the same level it once could, as shown no one else other than the descendants of Rook'shir can hold the blade and even Polaris while trying to lift the blade with her powers was repealed back.

Gorgon should have no problem wielding the blade, in fact, he is already possess swordsmaship skills, and the blade open the users mind to all those who had previously carried it, as well as taught him how to use it. Korvus, without a phoenix fragment, using just his own notwithstanding skill, with the blade, easily bested Havok, Polaris, Nightcrawler and Warpath combined.

Neato, so it's like a worse version of the Creation Blades. My team has two master swordsmen (Nemesis and Alita) with a blade that can kill super reality warpers and actually cut through anything. Either of them could kill/disable Gorgon if they get a hit in considering what it did to Tao, and Nemesis could interrupt his fight with Blink and stand up to his energy projection and telepathy thanks to the Quantum Bands (Which has had very good showings vs the Phoenix).

Omega Red

Will use the Oath Stone of Orkos: Given to Kratos by Orkos, this item has the power to create a clone of its wielder, so he can make a copy of himself, so by my count you have so far instead of 5, a total of 8 enemies to deal with, my original five plus 2 Gorgon and 1 Omega Red copy. This means you are numeric outmatched from the beginning (point for me :P)

Neat. You're dealing with 4 lightspeed Mala Mala Jongs and a Sapphire Dragon. That looks like 10 vs 8 by my count. I've already pointed out the veracity and efficacy of cloning Gorgon.

Frankly, raw numbers has never been a convincing argument to me. 50 bees isn't very effective against 10 wasps

Once again he will start to release his death spores all over the place, affecting anyone who comes close unguarded. After that, they will be ready to engage anyone in a fight using the tentacles to life drain the enemy. They can also telekinectic powers to protect themselves. Remember that death spores aren´t regular gases.

Go into more detail about this. I mean two of my members are freakin' cyborgs so I doubt it'd work on them, I doubt they'd get through Nemesis' shields, Zealot is moving at lightspeed and intangible, and can use the Staff of One to pull a "cure" or "immune" vs the spores on if necessary, and Blink has literally 1/5th of infinite life energy. I'm skeptical about how they'd get around my teams defenses.

Mr. Negative

Mister Negative can generate and control the Darkforce, manifesting it as the photographic negative of black electrical energy. He uses this unique form of Darkforce for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to:Shapeshifting, Object Empowerment, Person Empowerment/Healing Touch, Person Empowerment/Corrupting Touch. His Dark powers are stronger then even since the Soulsword/Eldrich Armor andTalismans greatly increases his powers.

Ok. Apply it to the fight. How would he use this power to do things to my team?

Spider Woman (Veranke)

is there to give some backup to her team using both her spider-woman powers as well as the new ones from the amulet of isis. So she can fly and from the sky generating great amounts of eletrical discharges through a combination of both venom blasts and lightning bolts, as well as using powerfull wind bursts to push the enemies off their balance. She can also make use of her pheromones to compromise enemies who may be close to her or even away since she can manipulate the wind to make it reach the enemy.

T-Masks prevent people from jacking or affecting Holt's mind automatically. With foreknowledge about this ability I don't think using Pheromones will be greatly effective on my team.

Finally, I'd like to address the map itself. My team should be relatively fine in the irradiated environment -- radiation should have minimal to no effect on my two cyborgs, Nemesis has shielding and can manipulate the radiation away from my team rather easily, Zealot has intangibility and Blink is, well, a Phoenix Fragment host who should be largely unaffected by the radiation. My team should have little to no need to disable the radiation but...how is your team dealing with it? Bane's Insider Suit should probably protect him and obviously Gorgon wouldn't be affected. But Negative, Omega, and Spider Woman have no such inherent defense.

Anyhow, I know this post has been pretty long so I'm gonna make a second post to determine what my team does. This was more about me countering your plans than enacting my own aside from my prep usage.

#11 Edited by Dredeuced (5833 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm

While I went into great detail about Zazie's defenses in response to your team's attacks, let me bring out her offensive weapons. Zazie will use the Snake Talisman to turn invisible to sight, and will then use the Pym Particles to grow to 100 feet, effectively increasing her size and everything on her's size by 20 fold. The now invisible to tech and sight giant robot will begin firing on your team with her adamantium ammo like so:

That's one gun firing 10,000 rounds a second of adamantium ammo which, by all reason, should tear straight through everyone on your team not named Gorgon. She also can fire her Zanber (rifle) and two pistols at the same time using her Exo Arms:

So it's actually much, much more than 10,000 rounds a second of invisible ammo firing at your team. I'd like to also point out how Zazie is an absurd shot. She's literally shot bullets out of the air before from point blank range while facing away from it:

She was able to consistently tag Rakan there (the guy literally spitting her bullet back at her) who sees bullets as incredibly slow. She can fire a huge, nearly undodgeable barrage of bullets that are 20x size thanks to Pym Particles with one arm, lay down supressing fire with her rifle on the other, and snipe accurately with her two main arms using her favored pistols.

Alita's job will be to use one of Nemesis' blades and her superior speed compared to your team to slice them to pieces. Thankfully, Alita is a shoe in in nearly any fight thanks to her Chi and Kizashi, which gives her molecular awareness, precognition of her opponent's next move, AND tells her the weakest point of an opponent's defense to exploit:

The first scan points out how it inherently deciphers weakness, the second scan gives basic info on it, the third shows her literal awareness of all things on the molecular level, 4th and 5th point out she has Kizashi and that Kizashi will tell you an opponent's next attack.

I'd like to clarify that this is nothing akin to telepathy -- the giant robot guy in scans 2 and 5 was named Den and he was literally a robot -- no brain to use telepathy on, but he can still use chi and alita later used her improved chi to beat him. It's an learned, nearly metaphysical skill. Combine weakness exploitation with a blade that cuts through anything, Superspeed from the Sandals of Hermes and Rabbit Talisman, and the cue to go all out thanks to her insane durability and precognition + intangibility combo, and anyone she sets her sights on would be in trouble with the possible exception of Gorgon and even he would need to be wary of the Creation Blade.

I'd like to note that I know your team has the Shard of Lightning and can go group lightspeed, as does mine (mine actually has 3, just in case you reversing mirror one of them) so I'd like to think our lightspeed advantage is rendered a net zero and we're effectively fighting at normal speed relative to each other, where I believe Alita has a major advantage.

I actually detailed how Nemesis would look to use her Bands to shield my team and herself and would try to take out Gorgon with it. With the Quantum Bands providing Telepathy immunity and shielding from any telekinetic attacks, I think she has a good shot at it.

Zealot is my designated Anti-Magic magic user. Her job is to disable or counter your magical artifact usage with a combination of greatly enhanced speed, intangibility and two items: Eldritch Sword and Staff of One. The Eldritch sword can disable any magical power or device it hits, which would allow me to get around stuff like your Talismans' immortality or your Shen Gong Wu's defenses or attacks. The Staff of One doubles up on this purpose, as it, in the hands of Nico, has dealt with magical threats time and time again, and it give Zealot the benefit of ranged anti magic capabilities. She could use a nearly infinite number of one word command spells such as "Negate" "Disable" "Stop" "No" "Immune" "Reverse" "Disable" -- the list goes on, all magical spells that can protect, disable or redirect your abilities, particularly your magic ones. It also can do things like literally bring her back to life with a simple "help" as seen in Avengers Arena where an effectively dead Nico was brought back to life and amped to extreme levels (and proceeded to completely own Darkhawk). I could go get scans if you need (I own the issue but I don't have a scanner, so I'd have to go find them on the internet which shouldn't be too hard, but unnecessary if you can take my word for it).

Finally, Blink can tele BFR some of your gear if she ever gets a hit in and obviously provides the counterpart to your Phoenix Fragment's telekinesis and Telepathy. Thankfully, only your Phoenix Host seems to stand a chance at harming Blink in a one on one fight while my team has 3 members (alita, nemesis, and Blink) who can presumably get a hit in and take out Gorgon thanks to Quantum Bands and Creation Blades.

My Mala Mala Jongs and Sapphire Dragon will mainly be used as distractions to handle any excess numbers you have while I take out your core members.

#12 Edited by HigorM (4227 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced great counters so far but I didn´t even posted my Main Strategy, that was just my opening post, but considering that it would be too long for the other characters, let´s just apply it on the strategy..

Note¹: Gorgon is making two doubles of himself without the items of course, as previously enlightened with @diredrill

Note²: I would like to ask @diredrill about the Mala Mala Jong since it requires a condition to happen:

"Every 1000 years, when the planets of the Solar System line up, the Shen Gong Wu start to fly and join to form Mala Mala Jong and then it looks for the Ring of Nine Dragons to create the Fearsome Four."

If this is allowed that´s alright, but it seems to want to push too much that 1000 years just happen in this battle..

Main Strategy

Let´s focus on the OP rules for one second:

  • Each team gets 5 minutes prep and basic info about the enemy team. The Basic Info includes names, pictures, and abiities. Bought Equipment is not known until you engage it. Obviously, if you have the perks that grant you more prep or knowledge, you get that instead.

Okay so we both start in equal conditions. We both know about each other condition. Point.

You have Full Knowledge while I have 1 more hour for prep.

That being said and established, I would like to start saying this.:

  • Bane already knows who the enemy is (names, pictures and abilities).
  • Bane is in the possession of these 3 Shen Gong Wu: Eye of Dashi, Reversing Mirror and Crystal Glasses .
  • Your team have measly 5 minutes to work a plan against my team, and despite having outstanding experienced characters such as Zealot, you can´t compare it against genius level intelect character such as Bane who already proved his strategic mind against someone called Batman.
  • So during the preparation time, Bane is not going to try to use the Crystal Glasses locate your team or scan anything with the battle computer, since he knows your team may or may not have ways to counter him with items. The Battle Computer gives him the ability to work through a million different scenarios, so he will use this ability to run all the items possibilities your team could have. Remember that we have access to the same items list so also considering that Bane possess a photographic memory, so combined with the BC and the previous battle experience and 1 month of training with the bought Shen Gong Wu he can e aware of your team items even without seeing them.
  • Bane can also use the Reversing Mirror during the 5 minutes of prep to insure that your team won´t be able to see or predict anything, you just know our items but not what we´re gonna do with them, and sincerely, 5 minutes aren´t enough when you don´t have a prep master on your team, not when we´re talking about a fight of this magnitude.
  • After the initial 5 minutes, Bane will start to assemble, organize and coordinate his team to use there items, combination and all that.

Still talking about the Shen Gong Wu, Gorgon is in possession of the Kazusu Atom, which combined with the Reversing Mirror gives the ability to create anything, including another Shen Gong Wu, so we are again evenly matched since I can create the Shen Gong Wu I want and most important, I have extra time to do that.

Kazusu Atom - can disintegrate anything, even a Shen Gong Wu. It is considered one of the most dangerous Shen Wu Gong, but when worn on the reverse mirror is able to build anything, even another Shen Wu Go.

The Radiation "Issue"

Okay so you questioned me about how Mr. Negative, Omega Red and Veranke would deal with the radiation of the place.

Let´s get back to the OP again:

The Semi Final Battle takes place in the Bludhaven after Chemo's big boom. The area is filled with radiation and toxic chemicals and is a generally awful place to be. The area is devoid of all life and due to the containment field, you cannot leave the area regardless of powers.

Chemo's Heart lies at the center of the map, obtaining it will allow you to reduce the radiation around your team. Getting to it will be difficult because it is emitting radiation at doses that will kill an unprotected human in half a second.

So the OP is clear to say that unprotected humans would die in half a second if they get near to the Chemo´s Heart, so that means the specific location emits more radiation then the rest of the map, and my team have no intention to go there, even if we need to be there my team have ways to be protected against toxic, chemicals and radiation.

  • All my team members are protected with T-Masks, that means they are protected against chemicals as already posted earlier.
  • Omega Red can protect himself using the Matter-Rearranger Ring - This Ring allows him to manipulate the atomic and molecular structures of matter, so he can rearrange costume to work as a protection against the radiation
  • Mr. Negative, despite his inherent powers, is using all 10 talismans, including Horse (healing) and Dog (Imortality). Also, remember that the soulsword gives him the ability to cast spells so he can just use magic to protect himself and others if needed.
  • Bane, during the prep time, knowing that the team would have to face this awful environment, can create specific protection against toxic, chemicals and radiation using the combination of Reversing Mirror and Kazusu Atom.

Now I believe that we can both agree that radiation is not a problem here..

Quantum Bands, are they that good? Let´s find out

They are great and all but unfortunately for you they possess weaknesses/limitations, and fortunately I can explore those.

  1. Worthiness: Similar to the hammer of Thor ( Mjolnir), a bearer of the Quantum-Bands must to be worthy. As the Quantum-Bands are tied to the station of the Protector of the Universe, the bands seem to require a calm mind lacking ‘killer instinct’ to learn to use them to their fullest potential. A bearer with the intent to commit acts of depravity and destruction will quickly find himself losing control of the energy output of the bands until they disintegrate him.
  2. Magic: The Bands cannot absorb it or resist it. However, an enchanted physical object will only be as strong as the object itself would otherwise be. Therefore, Thor's hammer (Mjolnir) will simply not shatter Quasar's forcefield like glass. Fortunately, magicians have no control over the energies he manipulates so, it evens out.
  3. Extradimensional energy: Quasar is susceptible to all persons using Darkforce. The Q-bands cannot create constructs to hold or resist darkforce energy. The Darkforce penetrates his energy like it wasn't even there. Also entities from the Negative-Zone (such as Annihilus) can corrupt the bands if wearing them.
  4. Psionic energy: A psionic blast will cut through any quantum constructs like paper mache'. Fortunately, most psionic manipulators are susceptible to the energies of the Quantum-Bands, so it evens out.
  5. Matter manipulation: Foes who manipulate matter, psionically or otherwise, the Quantum Bands cannot effect their powers. They deal with energy, not matter. The Molecule Man, Sersi, Phoenix, Her, and theSilver Surfer, among others, affect matter in a way that a bearer of the Q-bands cannot. However, Her, Sersi, and the Silver Surfer use cosmic energy to power their matter manipulation abilities and therefore a practiced bearer could affect the energy source, but not the ability itself.

I would say that 1, 2 and 4 are debatable, since you can argue that Nemesis is worth os using the quantum bands, I can´t control the magic energy my magician manipulates and the Quantum Bands worked against the Phoenix before.

But, as for the 3 and 5, especially 3, the Extradimensional Energy (Darkforce), you can´t argue, since the Quantum Bands have no answer for it. That leads me to Mr. Negative.

Mr. Negative: Back to the shadows of hell!

Martin Li inherent powers is Darkforce manipulation, like said before, but his power is enhanced by the Absolute Power perk which doubles it´s effectiveness

The thing is that here he possess the Talismans and the Soulsword + Eldrich Armor , allowing him to greatly increase his powers to unimaginable levels.

The Soulsword gives him the folllow abilities:

The strengths and extents of Illyana's SoulSword were never fully revealed. Her Soulsword did though show a number of very specific magical attributes and abilities that included the follow:

Grants Leadership of Limbo:

He who own/wields the Soulsword is granted leadership or dominion over Limbo, though the full power of the sword could only be accessed by Illyana.

Disruption of Magic & Breaking of Spells:

This includes its very lethal nature to that of magical beings.

Soul Absorption.

Sword Summoning:

Granting the owner of the sword to place and store it in absolute nothingness and allowing the own to retrieve from whence its place with ease.

Teleportation Disc's:

As a result of the SoulSword being forge from as piece of Illyana's soul, it would wields the ability to create teleportation stepping disc's. Thus allowing the current owner the same ability.

Dimensional Manipulation:

The ruler of Limbo can mentally manipulate the physical appearance of Limbo, allowing it to look/appear as they wish it to.

Augment Magical Powers:

Whom ever holds or owns the sword is granted increased magical strength.

Spellcasting:

When holding the Soulsword, it grants the hold the ability to cast or produce magic, even if they do not have the ability to do so.

Summoning of Mystical Eldrich Armor:

It was revealed by Dr. Doom that the mystical armor that manifests on the individual that wields the Soulsword is actually a magical armor provided to any who rule Limbo.

Super Strength:

When wearing the mystical armor, Illyana displayed a increase in her own personal strength. Shown when she did battle with her, one time, servant S'ym. During the Inferno invasion the two did battle. Illyana would easily grab S'ym and throw him yards away from her with only one arm.

The Soulsword is unable to harm beings of non-magical or cosmic origin but for unknown reasons, the Soulsword can physically injure Kitty Pryde, alias Shadowcat, even when she is using her phasing power to become intangible. Pryde, The Beyonder, Amanda Sefton, and Karma are to date the only other known beings besides Magik who are capable of wielding the Soulsword effectively. When Pryde does so, Magik's armor begins to appear on Pryde's body. Moreover, when the Beyonder once freed Illyana from the influence of her Darksoul, Pryde gained the ability to produce and wield the Soulsword. Illyana later took the Darksoul influence back upon herself in order that she could again wield the Soulsword to save Pryde's life from a demon. The reason for the mystical connection between Illyana Rasputin and Kitty Pryde, each of whom is the others best friend, is unknown but some believe it is because of the time Illyana spent in Limbo with an alternate version of Kitty Pryde.

I will highlight the most important:

Disruption of Magic & Breaking of Spells:

This includes its very lethal nature to that of magical beings.

That´s why your Magic based items such as Staff of One won´t work against me.

Augment Magical Powers:

Whom ever holds or owns the sword is granted increased magical strength.

We conclude that the Talismans (magic based) will be magically augmented by the Soulsword, which means that they will be more effective by all means.

Remember:

The Talisman Powers: Might and magic!

In season 3 both Daolon Wong and the Dark Hand manage to break into Section 13 and attempt to steal the Talismans. However, Jackie fires a powerful laser cannon at the bag of Talismans, intending to destroy them forever and put an end to Daolon Wong's plan. However, he learned the hard way that although the Talismans can be destroyed, their magical powers are invulnerable. As a result, the powers were scattered to the winds to possess the noble descendants of the original Zodiac animals; as their original containers were destroyed, they have to seek a substitute. So instead of ending the Talisman quest for good, Jackie started it all over again (much to his chagrin).

Note that Mr. Negative is using all 10 talismans infused on the Eldrich armor, so he can access their augmented powers as well as protect them from external threat.

Considering the powers of all 10 talismans, Mr. Negative possess:

  • Super Speed, Invisibility, Intangiility, Levitation, Telekinesis, Super Strength and Durability, Pyrokinesis, Animation, Animal Shapeshifting, Healing, Imortality, Optical Blasts and Balance.

In top of all that, you can add the Darkness Ring - This Ring allows him to create an area of darkness, presumably using Darkforce energy to do so.

Finally the 3 Shadow Shen Gong Wu: Shadow Slicer, Shroud of Shadows, Shadow of Fear. These 3 combined allow him to:

  • Hide in plain sight: The Shroud of Shadows is a cover in gray tones that gives the power of invisibility to the user.
  • Manipulate shadows: The Shadow Slicer can make holograms user to confuse the enemy and disappear after approaching someone.
  • Bring to live enemies worst fears: Shadow of Fear is a statue shaped Crow Bronze, which is the greatest fear of the enemy come true and can be used to enter the dreams of the enemies while they are sleeping.

* He also have a Mento-Intensifier but I will explain it later..

#13 Edited by Dredeuced (5833 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm

@dredeuced great counters so far but I didn´t even posted my Main Strategy, that was just my opening post, but considering that it would be too long for the other characters, let´s just apply it on the strategy..

Fair enough. Sorry about being kind of late with this response, I've only been able to get on the vine for about 10 to 15 minutes at a time for the last couple of days. Off we go!

Note¹: Gorgon is making two doubles of himself without the items of course, as previously enlightened with @diredrill

Note²: I would like to ask @diredrill about the Mala Mala Jong since it requires a condition to happen:

"Every 1000 years, when the planets of the Solar System line up, the Shen Gong Wu start to fly and join to form Mala Mala Jong and then it looks for the Ring of Nine Dragons to create the Fearsome Four."

If this is allowed that´s alright, but it seems to want to push too much that 1000 years just happen in this battle..

That's fine on Gorgon. I'd never have a problem with you adding a street level dude to the mix.

On the Mala Mala Jong thing -- the "once every 1000 years" event was all the Shen Gong Wu coming to life on their own and forming Mala Mala Jong by themselves. As I showed in my first video, if you have the Heart of Jong, you can cause Mala Mala Jong to rise by himself. From that moment on, the only complication would be giving it the Shen Gong Wu I want it to use, like the Ring of Nine Dragons.

That being said and established, I would like to start saying this.:

  • Bane already knows who the enemy is (names, pictures and abilities).
  • Bane is in the possession of these 3 Shen Gong Wu: Eye of Dashi, Reversing Mirror and Crystal Glasses .
  • Your team have measly 5 minutes to work a plan against my team, and despite having outstanding experienced characters such as Zealot, you can´t compare it against genius level intelect character such as Bane who already proved his strategic mind against someone called Batman.

Gotta call your bluff on this one. Bane is not a superior tactical mind to either Nemesis or Zealot, who both have literally hundreds of years of training in arguably the greatest military training ground in the universe in the Sisterhood. Matching wits with Batman is not some outstanding feat -- many a street leveler has gotten the better of him in planning and fighting. Bane's strategic machination was "make Batman fight all of his villains then beat him up." While an effective plan, it is A: not relevant to the fight B: hardly a way to defeat anyone on my team C: not a great enough feat to give you a shoe in victory. Bane needed several days to set his big anti-batman plan in motion and Batman had zero preparation. You've got 1 hour and every single one of my member's are much more dangerous than Batman even if you took away every single piece of gear they've got. I'd like to know how Bane could prep around stuff like Alita's precognition, molecular awareness, and weakness exploitation abilities or Nemesis' empathy.

  • So during the preparation time, Bane is not going to try to use the Crystal Glasses locate your team or scan anything with the battle computer, since he knows your team may or may not have ways to counter him with items. The Battle Computer gives him the ability to work through a million different scenarios, so he will use this ability to run all the items possibilities your team could have. Remember that we have access to the same items list so also considering that Bane possess a photographic memory, so combined with the BC and the previous battle experience and 1 month of training with the bought Shen Gong Wu he can e aware of your team items even without seeing them.

The Battle Computer has to scan my team to be able to calculate their abilities and come up with an outcome for a fight, a situation you can't induce during prep time. I'm also going to have to call you out on saying you use the Crystal Glasses to gain full knowledge of my team when:

  • Bane can also use the Reversing Mirror during the 5 minutes of prep to insure that your team won´t be able to see or predict anything, you just know our items but not what we´re gonna do with them, and sincerely, 5 minutes aren´t enough when you don´t have a prep master on your team, not when we´re talking about a fight of this magnitude.

So you're saying that you can use the Crystal Glasses, but stop me from using my Crystal Glasses with a reversing mirror, when I have my own reversing mirrors? This is direct contradiction. Not to mention the fact that you can't fool my team with the reversing mirror because we have full knowledge of your gear while you do not have full knowledge of my gear. If this scenario plays out, your Bane unwittingly uses the Crystal Glasses against my team, not knowing they have a Reversing Mirror. He is given false info by my team who, thanks to having a reversing mirror and full knowledge, know not to use our Crystal Glasses and know to counter yours.

Frankly, I believe we should both ditch this. I don't think it's reasonable for our teams to use items to interact with each other during prep in the first place. It clutters the scenario and takes away from the actual fight.

Finally, saying "Your team doesn't have a prep master" is pointless. Pointing out how strategically gifted your character is has literally no bearing if you yourself cannot come up with a strategy. This is not a comic book and you do not have the benefit of a comic writer to create the prep scenario for Bane. You have to create the scenario and use Bane's strategic genius as a way to justify it.

Still talking about the Shen Gong Wu, Gorgon is in possession of the Kazusu Atom, which combined with the Reversing Mirror gives the ability to create anything, including another Shen Gong Wu, so we are again evenly matched since I can create the Shen Gong Wu I want and most important, I have extra time to do that.

Ok, no, this is a gross misrepresentation of how it works. The Reversing Mirror wouldn't let you create anything, it'd just reverse the effects of it destroying something by repairing it at most. Also, the Kuzusu Atom lacks the feats to truly disintegrate anything -- you're committing a no limits fallacy.

  • All my team members are protected with T-Masks, that means they are protected against chemicals as already posted earlier.

T-Masks do not protect someone from radiation. As a matter of fact, T-masks are possible susceptible to being fried by such. Radiation =/= airborne toxins or chemicals.

  • Omega Red can protect himself using the Matter-Rearranger Ring - This Ring allows him to manipulate the atomic and molecular structures of matter, so he can rearrange costume to work as a protection against the radiation

Radiation is not necessarily matter, though. Gamma Radiation is just a wavelength of EM light, for instance. I'm A: Not sure there's matter for you to rearrange with the ring and B: doubtful Omega Red is skilled enough to protect himself from a specific kind of radiation...he's not the brightest X-man villain. Finally, he'd basically have to completely occupy himself with using the ring to defend himself since the Madarin rings take direct activation and control to use.

  • Mr. Negative, despite his inherent powers, is using all 10 talismans, including Horse (healing) and Dog (Imortality). Also, remember that the soulsword gives him the ability to cast spells so he can just use magic to protect himself and others if needed.

Horse and Dog work just fine. No issues with Mr. Negative being in trouble, though I will say the Dog and Horse have failed to remove pain from someone so he still might be feeling a lot of burning while standing in the radiation. "casting spells" is kind of a loose explanation.

  • Bane, during the prep time, knowing that the team would have to face this awful environment, can create specific protection against toxic, chemicals and radiation using the combination of Reversing Mirror and Kazusu Atom.

For one, you've got Bane doing a lot of stuff on his own during this prep time. Secondly, I've kind of shot down the "create anything" mechanic you pulled out of thin air. Third, it's not toxic chemicals.

Quantum Bands, are they that good? Let´s find out

They are great and all but unfortunately for you they possess weaknesses/limitations, and fortunately I can explore those.

  1. Worthiness: Similar to the hammer of Thor ( Mjolnir), a bearer of the Quantum-Bands must to be worthy. As the Quantum-Bands are tied to the station of the Protector of the Universe, the bands seem to require a calm mind lacking ‘killer instinct’ to learn to use them to their fullest potential. A bearer with the intent to commit acts of depravity and destruction will quickly find himself losing control of the energy output of the bands until they disintegrate him.
  2. Magic: The Bands cannot absorb it or resist it. However, an enchanted physical object will only be as strong as the object itself would otherwise be. Therefore, Thor's hammer (Mjolnir) will simply not shatter Quasar's forcefield like glass. Fortunately, magicians have no control over the energies he manipulates so, it evens out.
  3. Extradimensional energy: Quasar is susceptible to all persons using Darkforce. The Q-bands cannot create constructs to hold or resist darkforce energy. The Darkforce penetrates his energy like it wasn't even there. Also entities from the Negative-Zone (such as Annihilus) can corrupt the bands if wearing them.
  4. Psionic energy: A psionic blast will cut through any quantum constructs like paper mache'. Fortunately, most psionic manipulators are susceptible to the energies of the Quantum-Bands, so it evens out.
  5. Matter manipulation: Foes who manipulate matter, psionically or otherwise, the Quantum Bands cannot effect their powers. They deal with energy, not matter. The Molecule Man, Sersi, Phoenix, Her, and theSilver Surfer, among others, affect matter in a way that a bearer of the Q-bands cannot. However, Her, Sersi, and the Silver Surfer use cosmic energy to power their matter manipulation abilities and therefore a practiced bearer could affect the energy source, but not the ability itself.

I would say that 1, 2 and 4 are debatable, since you can argue that Nemesis is worth os using the quantum bands, I can´t control the magic energy my magician manipulates and the Quantum Bands worked against the Phoenix before.

1: The Quantum Bands can and have been used by people who have killed and have attempted to kill before. As a matter of fact, Phyla Vell is probably the second most known user of the Bands and she's done as much, and is the reason I could use the perk on them. Nemesis is at the very least a noble person (I can give you her entire solo series if you want proof on this one) so while she obviously wouldn't be the protector's first choice like Vaughn, she's quite certainly suitable.

2: Excuse me? If the Bands can't absorb or resist it then how did he tap into BRB's powers during the annihilators run to make a shield for them all?

3: Yep.

4: This is patently untrue. I can straight give you scans of Wendell redirecting Phoenix's psionic blasts.

5: I guess this is true to an extent, but he's fought and affected basically everyone on that lists' powers.

Mr. Negative: Back to the shadows of hell!

Martin Li inherent powers is Darkforce manipulation, like said before, but his power is enhanced by the Absolute Power perk which doubles it´s effectiveness

The thing is that here he possess the Talismans and the Soulsword + Eldrich Armor , allowing him to greatly increase his powers to unimaginable levels.

Doubling his power? Isn't his Darkforce manipulation purely melee range? Unless you expect to be getting close to Nemesis I'd hardly call it relevant. And even if you did get close, she still has a creation blade to take your guy out. The Creation Blades have handled far greater powers than the Talismans, so it'd be quite effective.

Secondly, why would the talismans and soulsword increase his powers to unimagineable levels? They're quite imaginable. I also don't believe they'd have any effect on his base powers, which you seem to be implying. In any case--

The Soulsword gives him the folllow abilities:

The strengths and extents of Illyana's SoulSword were never fully revealed. Her Soulsword did though show a number of very specific magical attributes and abilities that included the follow:

I will highlight the most important:

Disruption of Magic & Breaking of Spells:

This includes its very lethal nature to that of magical beings.

That´s why your Magic based items such as Staff of One won´t work against me.

Augment Magical Powers:

Whom ever holds or owns the sword is granted increased magical strength.

We conclude that the Talismans (magic based) will be magically augmented by the Soulsword, which means that they will be more effective by all means.

The Talisman Powers: Might and magic!

In season 3 both Daolon Wong and the Dark Hand manage to break into Section 13 and attempt to steal the Talismans. However, Jackie fires a powerful laser cannon at the bag of Talismans, intending to destroy them forever and put an end to Daolon Wong's plan. However, he learned the hard way that although the Talismans can be destroyed, their magical powers are invulnerable. As a result, the powers were scattered to the winds to possess the noble descendants of the original Zodiac animals; as their original containers were destroyed, they have to seek a substitute. So instead of ending the Talisman quest for good, Jackie started it all over again (much to his chagrin).

Note that Mr. Negative is using all 10 talismans infused on the Eldrich armor, so he can access their augmented powers as well as protect them from external threat.

Considering the powers of all 10 talismans, Mr. Negative possess:

  • Super Speed, Invisibility, Intangiility, Levitation, Telekinesis, Super Strength and Durability, Pyrokinesis, Animation, Animal Shapeshifting, Healing, Imortality, Optical Blasts and Balance.

In top of all that, you can add the Darkness Ring - This Ring allows him to create an area of darkness, presumably using Darkforce energy to do so.

Finally the 3 Shadow Shen Gong Wu: Shadow Slicer, Shroud of Shadows, Shadow of Fear. These 3 combined allow him to:

  • Hide in plain sight: The Shroud of Shadows is a cover in gray tones that gives the power of invisibility to the user.
  • Manipulate shadows: The Shadow Slicer can make holograms user to confuse the enemy and disappear after approaching someone.
  • Bring to live enemies worst fears: Shadow of Fear is a statue shaped Crow Bronze, which is the greatest fear of the enemy come true and can be used to enter the dreams of the enemies while they are sleeping.

Is this conjecture? I mean Zealot has the same setup (soulsword and talismans) and even more gear to boot, and she's got the Staff of One which the Soul Sword amps, and I'd take the Staff of One over the talismans any day thanks to its versatility.

Also "The Staff of One won't work against me," well certainly not, I'm not using the Staff of One against you. I'm using it against your team. Only one of your members has the Soul Sword, the other four are quite susceptible. The fun thing is, Zealot is the one using the Staff of One and she ALSO has the Soul Sword. So not only is she aware that spells are less effective on Negative, she knows exactly to what degree because she's also well practiced with the exact same gear he has. If you put the two of them in the fight against each other then it's Zealot's superior base gear (Kusar Blades) and superior bought gear (Staff of One and every item Negative has) vs Negative's amped darkforce powers. Zealot's a greatly superior fighter to him with superior inherent stats.

Not to mention Zealot actually has a long history of using magic in her earlier Wildcats days before having her magical powers forcefully taken from her. She's got Negative trumped in every which way and can counter his magic with the Soul Sword and overpower him with the amped Staff of One.

It was quite the long post to merely indicate that I have all of your gear and then some, on a more suited character, who has full knowledge of your gear that you don't have of mine, who can further amp her extra gear moreso. So for all the blovation of ehanced talismans with the Soul Sword, think of enhanced talismans AND the Staff of One with the Soul Sword. Not to mention Zealot's an awfully good swordswoman to boot, since it still is a sword.

I mean this still also doesn't save him from Zazie's invisible barrage. Not dying isn't gonna stop you from getting pasted by that much super sized ammo coming your way and if he's left in any way vulnerable then Zealot could easily pop up with her Superspeed, disable his magical protection, and let him die or finish him off.

#14 Posted by HigorM (4227 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay I´ll do my best to organize this so we can facilitate the insight and understanding of the judges and the viners of course..

Let´s start.

Gotta call your bluff on this one. Bane is not a superior tactical mind to either Nemesis or Zealot, who both have literally hundreds of years of training in arguably the greatest military training ground in the universe in the Sisterhood. Matching wits with Batman is not some outstanding feat -- many a street leveler has gotten the better of him in planning and fighting. Bane's strategic machination was "make Batman fight all of his villains then beat him up." While an effective plan, it is A: not relevant to the fight B: hardly a way to defeat anyone on my team C: not a great enough feat to give you a shoe in victory. Bane needed several days to set his big anti-batman plan in motion and Batman had zero preparation. You've got 1 hour and every single one of my member's are much more dangerous than Batman even if you took away every single piece of gear they've got. I'd like to know how Bane could prep around stuff like Alita's precognition, molecular awareness, and weakness exploitation abilities or Nemesis' empathy.

Having hundreds of years of training doesn´t grant you superior tactical mind. They´re 2 completely different things. Wonder Woman is a far more experienced character than Batman, but that does not mean she is superior or even equal to him in terms of tactics. Batman is the master of prep masters, and Bane was able to break him using his genius level intelect. Few characters were able to do that to him, street level or not. I´m not applying his Night Fall strategy in this particular battle, of course, but showing that Bane is qualified to leader this group of supervillains and make good use of the time for preparation to come up with a solid plan to defeat the enemy.

Your characters may be more dangerous than Batman considering their stats but I was not refering to this characteristic, I was refering to the strategic capability, so in that area Batman is ridiculous more capable than all your team members together.

Bane was able to do all that mess in Gotham City using mostly his mind. Here he possess not only his mind but several items which greatly increases his capability, turning him even more dangerous.

I will post this great CV video that perfectly resumes Bane..

http://www.comicvine.com/videos/3-minute-expert-who-is-bane/2300-1425/

@dredeuced:

The Battle Computer has to scan my team to be able to calculate their abilities and come up with an outcome for a fight, a situation you can't induce during prep time. I'm also going to have to call you out on saying you use the Crystal Glasses to gain full knowledge of my team when:

I don´t need to see your team face-to-face. The OP gives me names, pictures and abilities. So that´s already induced on the prep time. We´re also given access to the items list. So Bane, with the Battle Computer, can process a millions scenarios considering your characters name/picture/abilities to be able to predict which kind of item your team may have. He can be aware of all items since he already saw those items before, the job is to combined them with your team considering mostly their abilities.

Also, Gorgon can access the infinite knowledge of the Phoenix to get any information the team needs, and he doesn´t even have to use telepathy for that matter. As explained here:

@dredeuced:

So you're saying that you can use the Crystal Glasses, but stop me from using my Crystal Glasses with a reversing mirror, when I have my own reversing mirrors? This is direct contradiction. Not to mention the fact that you can't fool my team with the reversing mirror because we have full knowledge of your gear while you do not have full knowledge of my gear. If this scenario plays out, your Bane unwittingly uses the Crystal Glasses against my team, not knowing they have a Reversing Mirror. He is given false info by my team who, thanks to having a reversing mirror and full knowledge, know not to use our Crystal Glasses and know to counter yours.

Frankly, I believe we should both ditch this. I don't think it's reasonable for our teams to use items to interact with each other during prep in the first place. It clutters the scenario and takes away from the actual fight.

Finally, saying "Your team doesn't have a prep master" is pointless. Pointing out how strategically gifted your character is has literally no bearing if you yourself cannot come up with a strategy. This is not a comic book and you do not have the benefit of a comic writer to create the prep scenario for Bane. You have to create the scenario and use Bane's strategic genius as a way to justify it.

I´m saying that Bane will use the reversing mirror during the initial 5 minutes of prep, something we both have. But after the 5 minutes, your team will no longer have time to preparation, while my team will be given one extra hour. You have full knowledge on my team but you don´t know what we are going to do.

I´ve already explained that even without a full knowledge perk, my team possess ways to get to it using their new powers and abilities given by the items. I´ve also explained that Bane won´t use the Crystal during the initial 5 minutes of prep to avoid being fulled by a fake future. Bane is smart enough to realize that the enemy may have a reversing mirror since he himself possess one.

I believe that´s the whole point of the prep time, use infor/knowledge and resources to build a plan to work against the enemy. That´s avaiable for me and I will use it in the best way I can, specially when I have a prep master on my team.

I agree that I must create a scenario where I can use Bane strategic genius mind, but first I need to make clear that he is capable of doing so. I never said that my team will automatically win just because he possess superior intelect than your whole team. The strategy is being posted, you will see :)

@dredeuced:

Ok, no, this is a gross misrepresentation of how it works. The Reversing Mirror wouldn't let you create anything, it'd just reverse the effects of it destroying something by repairing it at most. Also, the Kuzusu Atom lacks the feats to truly disintegrate anything -- you're committing a no limits fallacy.

It looks like you´re not reading it properly, because I never said that the Reversing Mirror has the ability to create anything, I was pretty clear stabilishing that if you make a combination of the Reversing Mirror plus Kuzusu Atom you can create anything, even another Shen Gong Wu.

Kuzusu Atom:

When this Shen Gong Wu was activated, it allowed the user to vaporize anything or anybody at will. When being used, the bulb like part at the end of the Wu opened up to fire the beam. It was considered one of the most deadly Wu due to its ability.

Reversing Mirror:

When this Shen Gong Wu was activated, it allowed the user to reverse the power of anything that was directed towards it, even Shen Gong Wu. It could also reverse other effects not directly aimed at it as well. Any Shen-Gong-Wu-based attacks that were directed at the holder of the Reversing Mirror would be bounced back at the attacker by the mirror's magic. The Reversing Mirror also had the ability to change the effects of Shen Gong Wu used with it.

@dredeuced:

T-Masks do not protect someone from radiation. As a matter of fact, T-masks are possible susceptible to being fried by such. Radiation =/= airborne toxins or chemicals.

Once again, you are misunderstanding what I´m clearly saying. I never said the T-Mask protects it´s user from radiation. I said that they protect against CHEMICALS. I even gave the issue source.

@dredeuced:

Radiation is not necessarily matter, though. Gamma Radiation is just a wavelength of EM light, for instance. I'm A: Not sure there's matter for you to rearrange with the ring and B: doubtful Omega Red is skilled enough to protect himself from a specific kind of radiation...he's not the brightest X-man villain. Finally, he'd basically have to completely occupy himself with using the ring to defend himself since the Madarin rings take direct activation and control to use.

Over again, I never said Omega Red would be rearranging radiation. I have to say that once more I was perfectly clear stating that he would use the Matter Rearrangement Ring to modify his costume to work as a protection against toxic, chemicals and radiation. He´s not going to spend the whole fight trying to rearrange radiation.

@dredeuced:

Horse and Dog work just fine. No issues with Mr. Negative being in trouble, though I will say the Dog and Horse have failed to remove pain from someone so he still might be feeling a lot of burning while standing in the radiation. "casting spells" is kind of a loose explanation.

There´s no such thing as loose explanation, specially when we´re talking about Magic. The Eldrich armor itself grants him magical protection, the sword gives him the ability to cast spells:

  • Spell casting: When holding the Soulsword, it grants the hold the ability to cast or produce magic, even if they do not have the ability to do so.
  • Summoning of Mystical Eldrich Armor: It was revealed by Dr. Doom that the mystical armor that manifests on the individual that wields the Soulsword is actually a magical armor provided to any who rule Limbo.

So the armor can resist inside of Limbo but can´t protect the host inside Broken Bludhaven?

Also, you should read again:

Chemo's Heart lies at the center of the map, obtaining it will allow you to reduce the radiation around your team. Getting to it will be difficult because it is emitting radiation at doses that will kill an unprotected human in half a second.

So the OP is clear to say that unprotected humans would die in half a second if they get near to the Chemo´s Heart, so that means the specific location emits more radiation then the rest of the map, and my team have no intention to go there, even if we need to be there my team have ways to be protected against toxic, chemicals and radiation, as already explained.

@dredeuced:

For one, you've got Bane doing a lot of stuff on his own during this prep time. Secondly, I've kind of shot down the "create anything" mechanic you pulled out of thin air. Third, it's not toxic chemicals.

He´s not doing all by himself, he´s being assisted by his teammates. Most of all, he is well capable of doing "a lot of things", specially with those items.

You´re far from being able to shot down anything here. The Shen Gong wu combination is quite possible and he will use it.

Toxic, chemicals, radiation, I´ve made protection for all of those, so it doesn´t really matter..

*I will proceed in the next post..*

#15 Edited by HigorM (4227 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced:

1: The Quantum Bands can and have been used by people who have killed and have attempted to kill before. As a matter of fact, Phyla Vell is probably the second most known user of the Bands and she's done as much, and is the reason I could use the perk on them. Nemesis is at the very least a noble person (I can give you her entire solo series if you want proof on this one) so while she obviously wouldn't be the protector's first choice like Vaughn, she's quite certainly suitable.

2: Excuse me? If the Bands can't absorb or resist it then how did he tap into BRB's powers during the annihilators run to make a shield for them all?

3: Yep.

4: This is patently untrue. I can straight give you scans of Wendell redirecting Phoenix's psionic blasts.

5: I guess this is true to an extent, but he's fought and affected basically everyone on that lists' powers.

We should focus on 3 since you agreed with it and the others are self explanatory. The fact is that Quantum Bands bearers can´t deal with Darkforce, and that´s something Mr. Negative possess in abundance.

@dredeuced:

Doubling his power? Isn't his Darkforce manipulation purely melee range? Unless you expect to be getting close to Nemesis I'd hardly call it relevant. And even if you did get close, she still has a creation blade to take your guy out. The Creation Blades have handled far greater powers than the Talismans, so it'd be quite effective.

Secondly, why would the talismans and soulsword increase his powers to unimagineable levels? They're quite imaginable. I also don't believe they'd have any effect on his base powers, which you seem to be implying. In any case--

  • Mr. Negative powers at base levels are powerfull enough to corrupt beings like Spider-Man and The Hood. Yes, they are melee range at base levels, but here his powers are greatly increased.
  • The Absolute Power perk already doubled the effectiveness of his powers:Absolute Power - Choosing only genetically empowered people earns you 5 shots of MGH that will double the effectiveness of your powers.
  • The 10 magic based talismans gives Mr. Negative the follow powers: Super Speed, Invisibility, Intangiility, Levitation, Telekinesis, Super Strength and Durability, Pyrokinesis, Animation, Animal Shapeshifting, Healing, Imortality, Optical Blasts and Balance. This combined allow him to move at superspeeds while invisible and intangible, using optical blasts imbued with Dark energy.
  • The Soulsword grants him magical augmentation. So the powers of the talismans are boosted.
  • He is also using the The Darkness Ring - allows him to create an area of darkness, using Darkforce energy to do so.
  • Finally, he possess 3 magical based Shadow Shen Gong Wu: Shadow Slicer, Shroud of Shadows, Shadow of Fear, which are also intensified due to the Soulsword.

So yeah, Mr. Negative powers are more than double, he possess ways to use Darkforce against Nemesis at close, mid or long distance, he can fire optical dark energy blasts while invisible, intangible and moving at super speeds. He can use the Corrupting Touch to turn Nemesis into one of his lackeys. The corrupting touch was strong enough to corrupt beings of Spider-Man level.

I will give some info about Mr. Negative´s capabilities without enhancements:

During an encounter in The Amazing Spider-Man #621, Mr. Negative displays a degree of superhuman strength high enough to send Spider-Man flying through two buildings with a single blow. Mr. Negative also demonstrates superhuman reflexes during his battle with the Hood, dodging bullets or cutting them in half with his sword. He also has to power to charge up knives and swords with black electrical energy, and he can corrupt people he touches in the same manner, bringing them under his control. A corrupted person's clothes change their colors to their photographic negatives, and all who are corrupted praise their new master with proclamations like "Mr. Negative was never born, so he is ever living," or "He is attached to nothing, thus he is one with all." It's shown his corruption is more effective the more good the affected person was before his conversion: White Dragon, a villain himself, gained vastly increased stamina and endurance, but was still easily dispatched (interestingly, his clothes reverted to normal once he was killed). Conversely, Spider-Man, a hero in every respect, was corrupted into a spiteful and angry villain, despising every value he held dear (even his Uncle Ben's memory) and no more above killing.

Inner Demons

Mister Negative is often accompanied by several henchmen, known as his Inner Demons, who wear Dragon-style masks and use high tech electrified versions of swords, knuckles and various other oriental weaponry such as gun staffs and Nunchakus. They are able to regenerate from even the most lethal wounds within a matter of seconds, as they've been shown almost immediately recovering from impalement, gunshots to the head, and even getting torn apart or decapitated. It has been implied that the Inner Demons can be killed under the right circumstances: at one point, Anti-Venom claims to have killed some of them, possibly by suffocation, which he later notes to be an effective tactic against them. Mr. Negative also orders the murder of two Inner Demons who have failed him.

That also means that my entire team can be further enhanced via Darkforce energy, something Mr. Negative vastly possess.

So from all that we can conclude that Mr. Negative have ways to corrupt almost your entire team (except for Blink due to the phoenix fragment).

Darkforce is also something that your team doesn´t have an answer for, especially Nemesis who is in possession of an item that is highly susceptible to this kind of energy.

He possess enough Darkforce output to use his powers on the entire vicinity, corrupting anyone who may be within his range, since he can corrupt objects, anyone standing in the ground should be corrupted. He can cover the entire place with Darkness and than proceed to the corrupting strategy, Nemesis should be the first to be turn into one of his lackays.

#16 Posted by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: @higorm: Good stuff so far. Just a quick notice I will be opening voting on Monday so please get any posts you want made.

#17 Posted by Dredeuced (5833 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

Having hundreds of years of training doesn´t grant you superior tactical mind. They´re 2 completely different things. Wonder Woman is a far more experienced character than Batman, but that does not mean she is superior or even equal to him in terms of tactics. Batman is the master of prep masters, and Bane was able to break him using his genius level intelect. Few characters were able to do that to him, street level or not. I´m not applying his Night Fall strategy in this particular battle, of course, but showing that Bane is qualified to leader this group of supervillains and make good use of the time for preparation to come up with a solid plan to defeat the enemy.

Your characters may be more dangerous than Batman considering their stats but I was not refering to this characteristic, I was refering to the strategic capability, so in that area Batman is ridiculous more capable than all your team members together.

Whoooa, shots fired. Slow down there, buddy. Zazie's literally the greatest strategic fighter in BAA and head soldier of the Martian forces. In every single one of her fights she was amazingly outmatched and restricted in the gear she was allowed and won completely through on the spot tactical thinking.

I needn't need to point out how Zealot's got literally decades of showings as a team leader and strategist to go along with hundreds of years of experience. Nemesis formulated a plan that completely disabled the Authority (including Midnighter) while infiltrating their super ship and getting info out of it during Revelations. I shouldn't have to vouch for her tactical mind considering she has a much greater success rate than Bane.

For however great Bane's tactical mind is, he fails, and fails far more often than he succeeds in his plans. If you really want to call me out on this you might want to take a little introspection on your own character.

Frankly, all of that said, a team doesn't need a leader to be good. It doesn't need someone calling the shots and expecting the members to follow along perfectly when the entire team is capable.

Bane was able to do all that mess in Gotham City using mostly his mind. Here he possess not only his mind but several items which greatly increases his capability, turning him even more dangerous.

I will post this great CV video that perfectly resumes Bane..

Literally every single Batman villain has thrown Gotham into a mess. Gotham is a mess from one of Batman's rogues 99% of the time. This isn't impressive. For every showing of Bane's planning I can show you him stumbling into a fight stupidly and getting his venom cut off and having his ass handed to him because he didn't think the situation through.

I'm not sure how many times you're going to say "And he has items to make him better." Yes, everyone on our teams have items that make them better. It doesn't bear repeating.

I don´t need to see your team face-to-face. The OP gives me names, pictures and abilities. So that´s already induced on the prep time. We´re also given access to the items list. So Bane, with the Battle Computer, can process a millions scenarios considering your characters name/picture/abilities to be able to predict which kind of item your team may have. He can be aware of all items since he already saw those items before, the job is to combined them with your team considering mostly their abilities.

Also, Gorgon can access the infinite knowledge of the Phoenix to get any information the team needs, and he doesn´t even have to use telepathy for that matter. As explained here:

Glad to see you using my scan there. The infinite knowledge of the Phoenix isn't necessarily infinite. While I myself have used that, I used it only to gain very basic knowledge. Anything implying full knowledge on the enemy team is asking too much, and I'd imagine it'd have no knowledge regarding things that AREN'T in the Marvel universe. Now I do have a decent bit of Marvel gear with the Tactigon, Quantum Bands, Staff of One, Pym Particles, Ammunition, my own Fragment and Blink, but the Phoenix's "infinite" knowledge shouldn't stretch to stuff like characters and items from entirely different universes that it is unfamiliar with.

I'll actually use Diredrill's precedent of only allowing the Shen Gong Wu combo of the Eagle Scope + Fountain of Hui to give full knowledge of the xiaolin showdown universe to back this up, as well.

That said, a couple of these items, it's irrelevant what you know about them. Both the Tactigon and Staff of One, for instance, do something different every fight (the Tactigon adapts to its opponent, the Staff of One uses a different spell everytime), and some things having knowledge of them is irrelevant (Adamantium Ammunition, Pym Particles).

I´m saying that Bane will use the reversing mirror during the initial 5 minutes of prep, something we both have. But after the 5 minutes, your team will no longer have time to preparation, while my team will be given one extra hour. You have full knowledge on my team but you don´t know what we are going to do.

This is why I think interacting with each other during the prep is folly. We have no clue where we're prepping, what time our preps coincide, what my team is doing during the extra hour of prep you have. If my team sets up the Reversing Mirror Guard during our prep, what gives you the right to say you get around it just because you have more time?

I´ve already explained that even without a full knowledge perk, my team possess ways to get to it using their new powers and abilities given by the items. I´ve also explained that Bane won´t use the Crystal during the initial 5 minutes of prep to avoid being fulled by a fake future. Bane is smart enough to realize that the enemy may have a reversing mirror since he himself possess one.

and I'm saying your methods don't justify full knowledge. You're applying false dichotomies to our equivalent gear. Bane isn't smart enough to be clairvoyant about what gear the enemy has -- this would require true blue clairvoyance. Thankfully, I don't have to jump through a dozen hoops, grasp at straws, and change my prep around every post to obtain full knowledge

I believe that´s the whole point of the prep time, use infor/knowledge and resources to build a plan to work against the enemy. That´s avaiable for me and I will use it in the best way I can, specially when I have a prep master on my team.

I personally don't think we should be allowed to use our items against each other during our prep. You shouldn't be able to use the crystal glasses on my team because we're not interacting yet. You shouldn't be able to ask the Phoenix to delve into my team's secrets because we aren't interacting yet.

Also, you can stop repeating "I have a prep master on my team." It is, and continues to be, irrelevant. Unless he can use his prep to create special gear (an issue we'll touch on in a bit), a guy who preps entirely around street level fights shouldn't be able to project his expertise into fights between godlike beings like we have.

I agree that I must create a scenario where I can use Bane strategic genius mind, but first I need to make clear that he is capable of doing so. I never said that my team will automatically win just because he possess superior intelect than your whole team. The strategy is being posted, you will see :)

That's not true, actually. You can come up with an idea and so long as your team isn't composed of 5 mentally invalid beings, it isn't a stretch for them to come up with said plans. Any pernicious usage of gear can be covered by the practice we have with it.

t looks like you´re not reading it properly, because I never said that the Reversing Mirror has the ability to create anything, I was pretty clear stabilishing that if you make a combination of the Reversing Mirror plus Kuzusu Atom you can create anything, even another Shen Gong Wu.

Kuzusu Atom:

When this Shen Gong Wu was activated, it allowed the user to vaporize anything or anybody at will. When being used, the bulb like part at the end of the Wu opened up to fire the beam. It was considered one of the most deadly Wu due to its ability.

Reversing Mirror:

When this Shen Gong Wu was activated, it allowed the user to reverse the power of anything that was directed towards it, even Shen Gong Wu. It could also reverse other effects not directly aimed at it as well. Any Shen-Gong-Wu-based attacks that were directed at the holder of the Reversing Mirror would be bounced back at the attacker by the mirror's magic. The Reversing Mirror also had the ability to change the effects of Shen Gong Wu used with it.


Actually, I did read it. I don't think you get how the Kuzusu atom works. If it vaporizes something, then what's the reversing of vaporizing? Solidifying? So you'd shoot the mirror with the atom, it'd bounce the beam off to, let's say a stone wall. You'd make that stone wall solidfy instead of vaporize, because that's what the opposite of vaporize is. This is a reach on the gears abilities and something the show has never shown it can do. When you use the atom, you don't go "I think that rock should vaporize," reverse it, then have a rock magically appear. It's a stretch for you to try to come up with gear on the fly and it makes no sense. Not to mention saying the Atom can destroy anything (and thus create anything) is straight no limits fallacy. If the Atom can TRULY destroy anything, then the Reversing Mirror would be overpowered and destroyed when you try to use the Atom's power on it.

The idea that you can sit there with a Shen Gong Wu assembly line is patently ridiculous. Shen Gong Wu were only created by a some magical super monk from the past, not each other.

Once again, you are misunderstanding what I´m clearly saying. I never said the T-Mask protects it´s user from radiation. I said that they protect against CHEMICALS. I even gave the issue source.

Like what? I can show you that Terrific still has his sense of smell with the T-Mask on, if you want:

So he clearly still gets a whiff of any harmful chemicals. That said, saying someone's immune to the chemicals does not duly solve the radiation problem.

Over again, I never said Omega Red would be rearranging radiation. I have to say that once more I was perfectly clear stating that he would use the Matter Rearrangement Ring to modify his costume to work as a protection against toxic, chemicals and radiation. He´s not going to spend the whole fight trying to rearrange radiation.

Fair enough. This would greatly limit his ability to use his own death spores and whips, though.

There´s no such thing as loose explanation, specially when we´re talking about Magic. The Eldrich armor itself grants him magical protection, the sword gives him the ability to cast spells:

  • Spell casting: When holding the Soulsword, it grants the hold the ability to cast or produce magic, even if they do not have the ability to do so.
  • Summoning of Mystical Eldrich Armor: It was revealed by Dr. Doom that the mystical armor that manifests on the individual that wields the Soulsword is actually a magical armor provided to any who rule Limbo.

So the armor can resist inside of Limbo but can´t protect the host inside Broken Bludhaven?

Limbo? You mean that thing the entirety of Cyclops' X-men spent like 3 issues in with no problem? The thing Magik tossed the entirety of the Avengers into? The biggest threats in limbo are the demons and junk running around, not the caustic environment, considering how many people walk in and out of it (hell Magik carries people through it as her base power).

Magical Armor that only covers part of your body should not automatically protect you from radiation.

Also, you should read again:

Chemo's Heart lies at the center of the map, obtaining it will allow you to reduce the radiation around your team. Getting to it will be difficult because it is emitting radiation at doses that will kill an unprotected human in half a second.

So the OP is clear to say that unprotected humans would die in half a second if they get near to the Chemo´s Heart, so that means the specific location emits more radiation then the rest of the map, and my team have no intention to go there, even if we need to be there my team have ways to be protected against toxic, chemicals and radiation, as already explained.

Dude, you pull this "Can you read?" junk again and I'll stop playing nice. Everytime someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they failed to read something, okay? Seriously.

I clearly read the OP, considering I was the only one to address it and had to prompt you to do it. I didn't say your characters were unprotected humans -- I did say that no matter who they are it will harm/debilitate them if you don't come up with satisfactory reasons as to why they shrug it off and continue the fight as usual.

I'm questioning your protection. There's nothing wrong with applying the battle scenario to your characters as well as mine.

The Shen Gong wu combination is quite possible and he will use it.

Prove it. Your very own wording doesn't make sense, it was never done in the show, it's something a month of training would give no knowledge of, considering they've existed for hundreds of years in the Xiaolin Universe without people discovering the combination (despite the fact that they've discovered stuff like literal omnipotence with the Shen Gong Wu). It is something you made up, on the fly, with characters who are inexperienced with the gear, that has no factual bearing or showings. It's your word vs mine and I'm not attempting to make stuff up.

#18 Edited by Dredeuced (5833 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

We should focus on 3 since you agreed with it and the others are self explanatory. The fact is that Quantum Bands bearers can´t deal with Darkforce, and that´s something Mr. Negative possess in abundance.

I wouldn't call what Negative does an abundance. He's one of the lowest tier darkforce users around. That's why he's even a street leveler.

  • Mr. Negative powers at base levels are powerfull enough to corrupt beings like Spider-Man and The Hood. Yes, they are melee range at base levels, but here his powers are greatly increased.
  • The Absolute Power perk already doubled the effectiveness of his powers:Absolute Power - Choosing only genetically empowered people earns you 5 shots of MGH that will double the effectiveness of your powers.
  • The 10 magic based talismans gives Mr. Negative the follow powers: Super Speed, Invisibility, Intangiility, Levitation, Telekinesis, Super Strength and Durability, Pyrokinesis, Animation, Animal Shapeshifting, Healing, Imortality, Optical Blasts and Balance. This combined allow him to move at superspeeds while invisible and intangible, using optical blasts imbued with Dark energy.
  • The Soulsword grants him magical augmentation. So the powers of the talismans are boosted.
  • He is also using the The Darkness Ring - allows him to create an area of darkness, using Darkforce energy to do so.
  • Finally, he possess 3 magical based Shadow Shen Gong Wu: Shadow Slicer, Shroud of Shadows, Shadow of Fear, which are also intensified due to the Soulsword.

Everyone and their mother has corrupted Spider-man, to be fair.

Secondly, why could he imbue optical blasts with dark energy? That's now how the Pig Talisman works. It's just heat vision.

Doubling his range effectively goes from, like, 3 feet to 6 feet I guess?

Having a big list of lower tier magical items doesn't make his darkforce powers better. I don't even get why he'd be able to magically augment his darkforce powers with the Eldritch Sword. The Darkforce isn't magical, is it? It's just another dimension/energy source kind of thing. I know Negative's imparted the Darkforce onto melee weapons before, but that's just generally his range with it anyhow.

So yeah, Mr. Negative powers are more than double, he possess ways to use Darkforce against Nemesis at close, mid or long distance, he can fire optical dark energy blasts while invisible, intangible and moving at super speeds. He can use the Corrupting Touch to turn Nemesis into one of his lackeys. The corrupting touch was strong enough to corrupt beings of Spider-Man level.

You'd be hardpressed to hide from/surprise someone with the Crystal Glasses and her own Empathy, which allows her to feel negative intent towards her which, I mean, your guy's name is Mister Negative.

So invisibility and superspeed are hardly a problem

There's no long range showings of Negative's darkforce abilities, even if you double the range that'd still leave him in Nemesis' kill zone.

If he tries to corrupting touch Nemesis, he'll literally be instakilled by the creation blade. I don't care how magically amped you are, the Creation Blades kill super high tier reality warpers (Tao with the power of 3 different reality warpers), it'll kill you through your talismans. Not to mention Zealot is making it her goal to disable your magical character, as is her specialty.

During an encounter in The Amazing Spider-Man #621, Mr. Negative displays a degree of superhuman strength high enough to send Spider-Man flying through two buildings with a single blow. Mr. Negative also demonstrates superhuman reflexes during his battle with the Hood, dodging bullets or cutting them in half with his sword. He also has to power to charge up knives and swords with black electrical energy, and he can corrupt people he touches in the same manner, bringing them under his control. A corrupted person's clothes change their colors to their photographic negatives, and all who are corrupted praise their new master with proclamations like "Mr. Negative was never born, so he is ever living," or "He is attached to nothing, thus he is one with all." It's shown his corruption is more effective the more good the affected person was before his conversion: White Dragon, a villain himself, gained vastly increased stamina and endurance, but was still easily dispatched (interestingly, his clothes reverted to normal once he was killed). Conversely, Spider-Man, a hero in every respect, was corrupted into a spiteful and angry villain, despising every value he held dear (even his Uncle Ben's memory) and no more above killing.

Are you just quoting wikis or something? Like I said, getting in melee range to touch and corrupt someone is unlikely to work and Spider-man, in his thousands of appearances, gets turned evil more times than I can count.

hat also means that my entire team can be further enhanced via Darkforce energy, something Mr. Negative vastly possess.

So from all that we can conclude that Mr. Negative have ways to corrupt almost your entire team (except for Blink due to the phoenix fragment).

Darkforce is also something that your team doesn´t have an answer for, especially Nemesis who is in possession of an item that is highly susceptible to this kind of energy.

He possess enough Darkforce output to use his powers on the entire vicinity, corrupting anyone who may be within his range, since he can corrupt objects, anyone standing in the ground should be corrupted. He can cover the entire place with Darkness and than proceed to the corrupting strategy, Nemesis should be the first to be turn into one of his lackays.

What do you mean my team doesn't have an answer for? You're parading all this magical enhancement to his powers while I've got a literal walking anti magic fighter in Zealot who is specifically gunning for Negative. A quick "deconstruct" from Zealot and, for all his regen, Negative is in a useless pile on the ground for hours. To cancel out your darkforce, all she'd have to do is say "Lightforce" -- as Nico has said the opposite of a power's name to cancel it many a time.

Negative can't just go "I win, everyone's under my control." For one, again, even doubling his range is very limited. Not to mention my team can, you know, respond to his assaults considering they have full knowledge of all his capabilities thanks to the perk. You're not just gonna stroll in and deal with everything. Hell, how's he even getting past the absurd barrage of adamantium ammo coming his way? Eldritch armor and Talismans or not, a single 20x size bullet hitting him will literally send him flying for hundreds of meters -- I'd like to point out that the rabbit talisman, while granting superspeed, specifically does not increase reaction time, and this attack I've shown Zazie doing has caught people who are massively faster and have much greater reaction time than Negative (Rakan sees bullets in slow motion, he can literally knock several of them out of the air with his fingers at the same time and catch and redirect them with a hoola hoop like device).

With you having already ceded against it working against Blink, the last member of my team who's not proactively doing something about it is Alita. And frankly, trying to come at Alita, even with superspeed and invisibility, will spell an instant put down for Negative. She's got precognition, a specific power that allows her to see your weakness, and the ability to sense him on the molecular level, making any speedy, invisible attacks plain as day. Thankfully, Negative shouldn't know anything about this and would rush blinding into a phasing Alita who could blast him with a Tactigon. The Tactigon's weakness exploitation combined with Alita's own powers will quite easily outpace your defenses (it has one shotted far higher durability beings).

Frankly, if Negative and your team's goal is to send him in and try to corrupt my team, he'll fail quite horridly. I don't think he has a single good interaction with anyone on my team.

#19 Edited by HigorM (4227 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

Whoooa, shots fired. Slow down there, buddy. Zazie's literally the greatest strategic fighter in BAA and head soldier of the Martian forces. In every single one of her fights she was amazingly outmatched and restricted in the gear she was allowed and won completely through on the spot tactical thinking.

I needn't need to point out how Zealot's got literally decades of showings as a team leader and strategist to go along with hundreds of years of experience. Nemesis formulated a plan that completely disabled the Authority (including Midnighter) while infiltrating their super ship and getting info out of it during Revelations. I shouldn't have to vouch for her tactical mind considering she has a much greater success rate than Bane.

For however great Bane's tactical mind is, he fails, and fails far more often than he succeeds in his plans. If you really want to call me out on this you might want to take a little introspection on your own character.

Frankly, all of that said, a team doesn't need a leader to be good. It doesn't need someone calling the shots and expecting the members to follow along perfectly when the entire team is capable.

I´m not doubting about your team capabilities, you put Bane´s in question so I was just defending him.

While your team is composed of heroes, Bane is a villain, threfore it´s obvious that he will not always succeed. That doesn´t change the fact he is more than capable to lead his team towards victory.

A team doesn´t need a leader to be good, but they becomes better with a good leader. Take Cap. America and the Avengers for example.

Bane isn´t just a leader, he possess a gifted mind along with years of experience.

In Bane of the Demon, Ra's al Ghul says that Bane "has a mind equal to the greatest he has known". In prison, he taught himself various scientific disciplines equal to the level of understanding of leading experts in those fields. He knows six active languages and at least two additional arcane and dead ones. The Bane of the Demon storyline reveals that he has a photographic memory. Within one year, he is able to deduce Batman's secret identity.

In prison, Bane also invented his own form of calisthenics, meditation, and a fighting style that he uses against other well-known martial arts fighters within the DC Universe. Bane creator Chuck Dixon's early tales portray Bane as a very calm, centered warrior akin to the Bruce Lee; in as much that he draws strength through calm meditation, and the spiritual energy of the "very rock of Peña Dura". Dixon imbued Bane with an almost supernatural quality when he explained that Bane triumphed in all of his prison fights by employing these abilities, while his opponents had only rage and greed to propel them. Multiple scenes in "Vengeance of Bane" explore this aspect when it explains that Bane's mastery of meditation techniques "made time and space playthings to him". A subsequent scene that reinforces this ability comes when Bird first comes to Bane for help, because he heard from other inmates that Bane has "magic... the kind that allows him to travel beyond the prison walls.

Literally every single Batman villain has thrown Gotham into a mess. Gotham is a mess from one of Batman's rogues 99% of the time. This isn't impressive. For every showing of Bane's planning I can show you him stumbling into a fight stupidly and getting his venom cut off and having his ass handed to him because he didn't think the situation through.

I'm not sure how many times you're going to say "And he has items to make him better." Yes, everyone on our teams have items that make them better. It doesn't bear repeating.

That´s not correct. You´re making falses sentences to underestimate Bane´s capability. Batman possess a vast list of rogues and just a few of them were able to smite Batman the way he did. Also, you can´t compare this situation to a random fight he may have lost. You should take into account the context of the fight. Like said before, he´s a villain so he´s not going to win every single time.

About the Venom:

Usage of Venom enhances his physical abilities, including his strength and healing process, to superhuman levels. Although Bane had sworn off using Venom in Vengeance of Bane II in 1995, and his character is actually written as having kept that promise to himself, it is still not uncommon for artists to draw Bane as still wearing the tube leading from his old wrist device to the back of his head, as well as almost all media adaptations of the character show him actively using the Venom compound. Writer Gail Simone explained these lapses in the continuity of Bane's appearance in an issue of Secret Six, in which Deadshot remarked that Bane merely kept his old Venom equipment with him out of habit, even though Bane states that he would sooner die than use it again.

I can and will say as many times as I deems necessary, especially when I got an adversary trying to downplay him all the time. As for the items, I was referring myself to Bane and how the items would enhance his already great mind.

Glad to see you using my scan there. The infinite knowledge of the Phoenix isn't necessarily infinite. While I myself have used that, I used it only to gain very basic knowledge. Anything implying full knowledge on the enemy team is asking too much, and I'd imagine it'd have no knowledge regarding things that AREN'T in the Marvel universe. Now I do have a decent bit of Marvel gear with the Tactigon, Quantum Bands, Staff of One, Pym Particles, Ammunition, my own Fragment and Blink, but the Phoenix's "infinite" knowledge shouldn't stretch to stuff like characters and items from entirely different universes that it is unfamiliar with.

I'll actually use Diredrill's precedent of only allowing the Shen Gong Wu combo of the Eagle Scope + Fountain of Hui to give full knowledge of the xiaolin showdown universe to back this up, as well.

That said, a couple of these items, it's irrelevant what you know about them. Both the Tactigon and Staff of One, for instance, do something different every fight (the Tactigon adapts to its opponent, the Staff of One uses a different spell everytime), and some things having knowledge of them is irrelevant (Adamantium Ammunition, Pym Particles).

I didn't know you were the writer of this saga to make it your scan, sorry. We already have basic knowledge, I´m not going to use the Phoenix for that, but to gain full knowledge of whoever stands against it´s host in the other side, of course from the same marvel universe, also including the items from the same universe.

Tell me about it, that´s the reason I gave up to use that combo.

The Tactigon is a great weapon but doesn´t give you insta-kill with the right specific weakness of the enemy, unless you give me proof of that, and the Staff of One can be countered with the Souldsword so that´s pretty much irrelevant.

This is why I think interacting with each other during the prep is folly. We have no clue where we're prepping, what time our preps coincide, what my team is doing during the extra hour of prep you have. If my team sets up the Reversing Mirror Guard during our prep, what gives you the right to say you get around it just because you have more time?

What are you talking about ? Doesn't matter where the prep time is gonna happen, both teams knows they´re going to fight each other, both team knows where they are going to fight and most important:

The initial 5 minutes for prep coincide at same time, that´s more than obvious. They start at equal conditions, so the clock start ticking at the same time for both team, what you´re going to do with your initial 5 minutes is irrelevant for me since my team possess one extra hour. Your team is not going to do a single move during my extra hour since that´s a perk only I possess in this battle. As already explained, Bane is using the Reversing Mirror during the OP mutual 5 minutes for prep, so doesn´t matter if you´re using it too or not. I believe I´m safe to say that my team is assured to do whatever they want during the extra hour because your team can´t do nothing about it.

and I'm saying your methods don't justify full knowledge. You're applying false dichotomies to our equivalent gear. Bane isn't smart enough to be clairvoyant about what gear the enemy has -- this would require true blue clairvoyance. Thankfully, I don't have to jump through a dozen hoops, grasp at straws, and change my prep around every post to obtain full knowledge

Our gear aren´t 100% equivalent. Bane is smart enough to do it. He can use Crystal Glassess to know about all your existing Shen Gong Wu. The Phoenix can give him all necessary knowledge among the Marvel Universe. The other items can be discovered through the use of the battle computer as already explained, since Bane possess photographic memory so he has saved all avaiable items to be bought.

I personally don't think we should be allowed to use our items against each other during our prep. You shouldn't be able to use the crystal glasses on my team because we're not interacting yet. You shouldn't be able to ask the Phoenix to delve into my team's secrets because we aren't interacting yet.

Also, you can stop repeating "I have a prep master on my team." It is, and continues to be, irrelevant. Unless he can use his prep to create special gear (an issue we'll touch on in a bit), a guy who preps entirely around street level fights shouldn't be able to project his expertise into fights between godlike beings like we have.

I believe we should so YES WE CAN! Unless @diredrill says otherwise. The Crystal Glasses The Crystal Glasses are a Shen Gong Wu that allows the wearer to see into the future, near or distant. They show the future as long as are worn. So it would be ilogical to have them with I can´t use them to see upcoming danger. So doesn´t matter if we´re not seeing each other yet, that´s the whole point of having that specific Shen Gong Wu.

That´s far from being irrelevant, I don´t care if you think it is since it´s up to the judges to make that decision. I don´t see why Bane can´t prep for godlike beings since he´s one of those beings. That makes no sense. Our characters are all street level based without the items. In top of that, Bane has faced powerhouses before since he was a member of the Secret Society of Super Villains, Secret Six, Suicide Squad, etc

That's not true, actually. You can come up with an idea and so long as your team isn't composed of 5 mentally invalid beings, it isn't a stretch for them to come up with said plans. Any pernicious usage of gear can be covered by the practice we have with it.

There´s a limit for that, you can´t expect a character do something he´s not use to do on a regular basis, that would be ask too much. That´s why I took care to estabilish Bane´s capabilities first.

Actually, I did read it. I don't think you get how the Kuzusu atom works. If it vaporizes something, then what's the reversing of vaporizing? Solidifying? So you'd shoot the mirror with the atom, it'd bounce the beam off to, let's say a stone wall. You'd make that stone wall solidfy instead of vaporize, because that's what the opposite of vaporize is. This is a reach on the gears abilities and something the show has never shown it can do. When you use the atom, you don't go "I think that rock should vaporize," reverse it, then have a rock magically appear. It's a stretch for you to try to come up with gear on the fly and it makes no sense. Not to mention saying the Atom can destroy anything (and thus create anything) is straight no limits fallacy. If the Atom can TRULY destroy anything, then the Reversing Mirror would be overpowered and destroyed when you try to use the Atom's power on it.

The idea that you can sit there with a Shen Gong Wu assembly line is patently ridiculous. Shen Gong Wu were only created by a some magical super monk from the past, not each other.

Doesn´t look like you read it tho. I get how it works, but you´re reluctant to see what I see and what actually happened.

Kuzusu Atom:

Ability

When this Shen Gong Wu was activated, it allowed the user to vaporize anything or anybody at will. When being used, the bulb like part at the end of the Wu opened up to fire the beam. It was considered one of the most deadly Wu due to its ability.

History

In its first appearance in "Chucky Choo", it was used to vaporize the bag of fake Wu.

Hannibal Roy Bean used the Kuzusu Atom again in "Time After Time: Part II" to destroy the Sands of Time, preventing Omi from using it. This displayed that excluding the fake Wu, the Atom is very well capable of destroying actual Wu.

So the Kuzusu Atom has already been able to destroy another Shen Gong Wu. So with the combination of Reversing Mirror what we have the ability to create another Shen Gong Wu. If it was able to destroy, it can create too. What is the antonym of destroying? CREATE.

Like what? I can show you that Terrific still has his sense of smell with the T-Mask on, if you want:

So he clearly still gets a whiff of any harmful chemicals. That said, saying someone's immune to the chemicals does not duly solve the radiation problem.

You´re using New 52 feats while I´ve used and posted the issue number from the reference of T-Mask chemicals protection. I believe we can both use either Pre or New 52 feats. Even then that scans doesn´t prove he was suffering due to the air condition.

Fair enough. This would greatly limit his ability to use his own death spores and whips, though.

It´s not going to limit anything, he will modify the costume to prevent him from radiation, that´s it.

Limbo? You mean that thing the entirety of Cyclops' X-men spent like 3 issues in with no problem? The thing Magik tossed the entirety of the Avengers into? The biggest threats in limbo are the demons and junk running around, not the caustic environment, considering how many people walk in and out of it (hell Magik carries people through it as her base power).

Magical Armor that only covers part of your body should not automatically protect you from radiation.

That´s debatable, but he got not only the armor but also the sword to cast spells using arcane symbols to protect himself and the whole team if necessary, that´s not an issue.

Dude, you pull this "Can you read?" junk again and I'll stop playing nice. Everytime someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they failed to read something, okay? Seriously.

I clearly read the OP, considering I was the only one to address it and had to prompt you to do it. I didn't say your characters were unprotected humans -- I did say that no matter who they are it will harm/debilitate them if you don't come up with satisfactory reasons as to why they shrug it off and continue the fight as usual.

I'm questioning your protection. There's nothing wrong with applying the battle scenario to your characters as well as mine.

Wow, shit just got real? Come at me bro!

Yeah It really looks like you failed to read, not the OP itself but other instances like the "radiation rearrangement". And when you question protection, since the OP refers to the ones near to Chemo´s Heart, a place my team has no intend to being around.

You don´t get extra points for being "The One Who Adrressed The OP" come on.. I never call it because I´ve judged it unnecessary, but when you start pointing it against my team I had to make a move. My team is not unprotected so there´s no reason to waste time with it. So, just move on.

Prove it. Your very own wording doesn't make sense, it was never done in the show, it's something a month of training would give no knowledge of, considering they've existed for hundreds of years in the Xiaolin Universe without people discovering the combination (despite the fact that they've discovered stuff like literal omnipotence with the Shen Gong Wu). It is something you made up, on the fly, with characters who are inexperienced with the gear, that has no factual bearing or showings. It's your word vs mine and I'm not attempting to make stuff up.

I dit it already, but I will facilitate the comprehension for you:

  • It´s clear that the Kuzusu Atom destroyed a Shen Gong Wu in Time After Time: Part II
  • It´s clear that the Reversing Mirror allow the user to reverse the power of anything that was directed towards it, even Shen Gong Wu.
  • So the combination of these two allows Bane to create another Shen Gong Wu.

Video for reference: 08:06

*I will run progress in the next post*

#20 Edited by Dredeuced (5833 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

I´m not doubting about your team capabilities

Haha what was this then:

Your characters may be more dangerous than Batman considering their stats but I was not refering to this characteristic, I was refering to the strategic capability, so in that area Batman is ridiculous more capable than all your team members together.

That's exactly what you were doing. This was after you tried to say how being the top members of the Coda Sisterhood doesn't qualify them to be tactically sound.

While your team is composed of heroes, Bane is a villain, threfore it´s obvious that he will not always succeed. That doesn´t change the fact he is more than capable to lead his team towards victory.

That's actually exactly what it means. That's sort of the rap you get when you pick villains -- they have decades of consistent failures in situations where they had the prep advantage. I wouldn't trust my team in the hands of a guy with a very negative winrate.

A team doesn´t need a leader to be good, but they becomes better with a good leader. Take Cap. America and the Avengers for example.

Psh, Avengers have done fine without cap before. It's not like Cap made Thor better at beating up Void or whatever, if you catch my drift. Cap is usually quite irrelevant when cosmic forces show up, and that's what we're dealing with.

Bane isn´t just a leader, he possess a gifted mind along with years of experience.

I mean, do I have to point out how Nemesis was one of the quickest learners in the Coda? Or how Zealot was it's top practitioner? A brilliant mind doesn't compare to a brilliant mind with much, much more honing in a superior environment.

That´s not correct. You´re making falses sentences to underestimate Bane´s capability. Batman possess a vast list of rogues and just a few of them were able to smite Batman the way he did. Also, you can´t compare this situation to a random fight he may have lost. You should take into account the context of the fight. Like said before, he´s a villain so he´s not going to win every single time.

About the Venom:

Usage of Venom enhances his physical abilities, including his strength and healing process, to superhuman levels. Although Bane had sworn off using Venom in Vengeance of Bane II in 1995, and his character is actually written as having kept that promise to himself, it is still not uncommon for artists to draw Bane as still wearing the tube leading from his old wrist device to the back of his head, as well as almost all media adaptations of the character show him actively using the Venom compound. Writer Gail Simone explained these lapses in the continuity of Bane's appearance in an issue of Secret Six, in which Deadshot remarked that Bane merely kept his old Venom equipment with him out of habit, even though Bane states that he would sooner die than use it again.

I can and will say as many times as I deems necessary, especially when I got an adversary trying to downplay him all the time. As for the items, I was referring myself to Bane and how the items would enhance his already great mind.

I will certainly downplay Bane's credentials as a prep master when he more often fails than succeeds, and fails against street levelers. He isn't a great leader, he is completely inexperienced in dealing with powers of this magnitude (of which none of my team are) and he fails time and time again. Quoting wikis about just how dang smart he is sometimes doesn't make up for his countless failings to Batman -- a 0 prep Batman who wasn't juggling cosmic weapons.

I didn't know you were the writer of this saga to make it your scan, sorry. We already have basic knowledge, I´m not going to use the Phoenix for that, but to gain full knowledge of whoever stands against it´s host in the other side, of course from the same marvel universe, also including the items from the same universe.

No need to get snide about it, bro. I don't MIND you using my scan(I said scan, not comic. I did make the scan, I never said I made the comic), I was just pointing it out as a bit of pride for me considering I did the research on it. I mean, I know it's the scan I made and you got it from my match with TDLP because it's got the exact same resolution and cut off (which I used so it wouldn't be too big/too hard to read). Honestly, I just used it to get info on my opponent's starting location, I think you're overstretching an underutilized feat.

The Tactigon is a great weapon but doesn´t give you insta-kill with the right specific weakness of the enemy, unless you give me proof of that, and the Staff of One can be countered with the Souldsword so that´s pretty much irrelevant.

It isn't an instakill, but it will specifically tailor itself to harm an enemy through their defenses, stacked up with Alita's own precognition and weakness insight. Anyone who isn't sporting high tier durability like Gorgon would be duly disabled. If someone's immortal, it can shoot them with a stunning field (like it did Ultimo) to disable them for the majority of the fight. I don't HAVE to kill your immortal guys to make them unimportant in the fight. Tactigon might as well be named the versatility gun.

Our gear aren´t 100% equivalent. Bane is smart enough to do it. He can use Crystal Glassess to know about all your existing Shen Gong Wu. The Phoenix can give him all necessary knowledge among the Marvel Universe. The other items can be discovered through the use of the battle computer as already explained, since Bane possess photographic memory so he has saved all avaiable items to be bought.

This is nonsense. How smart Bane is has nothing to do with whether he knows my team has a reversing mirror or not, or whether we get the same amount of prep as you do. He would literally have to be naturally clairvoyant without the Crystal Glasses to know that my team can counter the Crystal Glasses. He doesn't just get to know what gear works and doesn't work for his prep. He can't use the battle computer to figure out what items my team has because the Battle Computer A: has to scan things to determine what they do B: doesn't have any info on what gear my team has to run out of combat calculations and C: how is the battle computer going to find out what gear I have?

You're right, though. Our gear is not 100% equivalent. I basically have most of your gear and then some. I've just doubled up on SGW/Talismans while you got rings and the computer (which I've pointed out is literally useless against a team with T-masks).

I believe we should so YES WE CAN! Unless @diredrill says otherwise. The Crystal Glasses The Crystal Glasses are a Shen Gong Wu that allows the wearer to see into the future, near or distant. They show the future as long as are worn. So it would be ilogical to have them with I can´t use them to see upcoming danger. So doesn´t matter if we´re not seeing each other yet, that´s the whole point of having that specific Shen Gong Wu.

That´s far from being irrelevant, I don´t care if you think it is since it´s up to the judges to make that decision. I don´t see why Bane can´t prep for godlike beings since he´s one of those beings. That makes no sense. Our characters are all street level based without the items. In top of that, Bane has faced powerhouses before since he was a member of the Secret Society of Super Villains, Secret Six, Suicide Squad, etc

I mean I'm one of the judges but whatevs. My main problem with you using the crystal glasses is you specifically said I couldn't use my 3 pairs against you because you had the reversing mirror, but you can use yours against me when I have 2 reversing mirrors. I've got the same gear in duplicates but you can somehow use yours better than me. It's a double standard merely to benefit yourself.

Speaking of Shen Gong Wu, you know I have 4 Mala Mala Jongs with the Gloves of Jisaku, right? The Gloves steal opponent's shen gong wu. Coming into the fight you're going to start losing most of your gear (I won't be able to use it, sadly, rules are rules) that you're relying on.

There´s a limit for that, you can´t expect a character do something he´s not use to do on a regular basis, that would be ask too much. That´s why I took care to estabilish Bane´s capabilities first.

I mean, his capabilities are losing to Batman most of the time. Hell he's lost to Nightwing before, too. Bane's track record/capabilities aren't the most touted in the comic universe.

Atleast Zealot and Nemesis can fight Midnighter to a standstill for awhile, lol.

So the Kuzusu Atom has already been able to destroy another Shen Gong Wu. So with the combination of Reversing Mirror what we have the ability to create another Shen Gong Wu. If it was able to destroy, it can create too. What is the antonym of destroying? CREATE.

Could you please stop copy pasting the same text over and over? It floods the thread with info the judges are already aware of.

And like I said, you specifically used the word vaporize. What's the antonym of vaporize? solidify! Not to mention you keep harping about it destroying shen gong wu, but ignore that if it's powerful enough to destroy SGW, why wouldn't it destroy the reversing mirror? There's so many holes in the idea (not the least of which is it makes no sense) that I can't believe you're still relying on it.

You´re using New 52 feats while I´ve used and posted the issue number from the reference of T-Mask chemicals protection. I believe we can both use either Pre or New 52 feats. Even then that scans doesn´t prove he was suffering due to the air condition.

I mean sure, I don't care too much. That said it'd only protect you from inhaled chemicals and anything that lands on your face. They'd still burn your skin and such and the radiation was always the more dangerous part and the part I focused on.

Yeah It really looks like you failed to read, not the OP itself but other instances like the "radiation rearrangement". And when you question protection, since the OP refers to the ones near to Chemo´s Heart, a place my team has no intend to being around.

No, it specifically says the entire area is flooded. The heart is where you go to turn down the radiation levels so it's more hospitable. But go ahead and keep going "I GUESS SOMEONE DIDN'T READ" over and over and over. Belittling me won't help your case.

You don´t get extra points for being "The One Who Adrressed The OP" come on.. I never call it because I´ve judged it unnecessary, but when you start pointing it against my team I had to make a move. My team is not unprotected so there´s no reason to waste time with it. So, just move on.

...How is the battlefield unnecessary? You kidding me with that? You were just going to ignore a gigantic hazardous environment like it was no big deal for the entire fight? Suit yourself, that's a terrible plan. You needed to explain why your team doesn't roast away in seconds to the radiation or the Judges would've easily said "Higorm never addressed the radiation" etc. You don't just ignore major tenants of the combat. That's like say "I never addressed your argument because I thought my team wins without me having to justify it."

I dit it already, but I will facilitate the comprehension for you:

  • It´s clear that the Kuzusu Atom destroyed a Shen Gong Wu in Time After Time: Part II
  • It´s clear that the Reversing Mirror allow the user to reverse the power of anything that was directed towards it, even Shen Gong Wu.
  • So the combination of these two allows Bane to create another Shen Gong Wu.

No, it vaporizes them in your own text. The Atom also has to have a target. It doesn't destroy something out of nothingness. It's a baseless statement that was never shown in the show that has the following problems:

  • The Kuzusu atom is not activated by intent. It doesn't magically sense that you want to destroy a specific thing -- it's point and shoot. For it to be able to create something, you'd have to go "I want to destroy the Fist of Tebigong," shoot the mirror, have it reverse the effect and hit something, and create it. That's not how it works. It just indiscriminately destroys without mental prompt. Even if it did the opposite of destroy to "create," something, there's no way for you to control what it creates. It doesn't follow orders, it's not sentient.
  • The Kuzusu Atom specifically is shown to destroy wu. Shooting your own wu with it is an enormous risk because there's no telling if the Atom or Mirror will win out in the exchange -- Bane would be taking a gamble on gear he knows practically nothing about. He doesn't have the Wu scrolls that the monks do to get the precise wording to play the semantics like you're trying. That Bane would intentionally shoot his own gear with something that atomizes things is an absurd leap of faith
  • The creation of Shen Gong Wu implies an inherent understanding of how the Wu work that Bane does not possess. Only Dashi does. There's no reason to think that Bane would know how to create other wu...unless he had the Fountain + Eagle combo to give him infinite knowledge of the Xiaolin Showdown Universe. Come to think of it, that might've been a good way to abuse what Diredrill allowed. Too late, I guess.
  • The Reversing Mirror does not precisely reverse things exactly how you'd like. Almost everytime the monks used it, they didn't know exactly how the reversing effect was going to go until it happened. And they had far more working knowledge than Bane did with the gear
  • Creating infinite wu with effectively 2/10ths of the emperor scorpion subverts the rules. That's like someone using the Matter Rearranger on the Mandarin rings to say "I make infinite mandarin rings," or the cosmic ring to make infinite Quantum Bands or GL rings or something. Duplicative effects are allowable in limited numbers (like how you used the sash or I used the ring of nine dragons or any other number of duping abilities in the tournament), but not infinite recreation of gear.

PS: if you're going to show a 22 minute video to back up your argument, atleast point out which part of the video you are specifying supports your argument.

#21 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12392 posts) - - Show Bio

damn, already looks like a blowout

#22 Edited by HigorM (4227 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Thank you for being so courteous and respectful to wait I finish my second post, to considering that you even titled yourself as "one of the judges".

I'll finish posting the second post and then continue this "back and forth"

I thought that I didn´t need to ask but, can you wait until I finish my posts ?

#23 Edited by Dredeuced (5833 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm said:

@dredeuced: Thank you for being so courteous and respectful to wait I finish my second post, to considering that you even titled yourself as "one of the judges".

I'll finish posting the second post and then continue this "back and forth"

I thought that I didn´t need to ask but, can you wait until I finish my posts ?

I don't get why you need to split your posts into two to finish them. I rarely get the full time to sit down for an hour and respond to your stuff in full. I saw the notification and responded.

You made a snide remark about the judges so I was snide back about being a judge. I obviously recuse myself from voting in my own battles (I mean I know you've read my battles before) but I get to be snarky when I get snarked. :P

#24 Edited by HigorM (4227 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

I don't get why you need to split your posts into two to finish them. I rarely get the full time to sit down for an hour and respond to your stuff in full. I saw the notification and responded.

You made a snide remark about the judges so I was snide back about being a judge. I obviously recuse myself from voting in my own battles (I mean I know you've read my battles before) but I get to be snarky when I get snarked. :P

I split in two posts because your last counter was also splited in two posts, so I was doing the same thing until I got interrupted. Spliting in two posts facilitates the comprehension..

Snide remark? Can you please point me where I made a false remark about the judges?

You´re not a judge here, in this particular battle, so I don´t know what are you talking about..

Since you refused to answer my question about posting respect, I will proceed in the way I´ve always been and try to keep this civilized and organized, but you can act the way you want.

#25 Edited by Dredeuced (5833 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm said:

@dredeuced said:

I don't get why you need to split your posts into two to finish them. I rarely get the full time to sit down for an hour and respond to your stuff in full. I saw the notification and responded.

You made a snide remark about the judges so I was snide back about being a judge. I obviously recuse myself from voting in my own battles (I mean I know you've read my battles before) but I get to be snarky when I get snarked. :P

I split in two posts because your last counter was also splited in two posts, so I was doing the same thing until I got interrupted. Spliting in two posts facilitates the comprehension..

Snide remark? Can you please point me where I made a false remark about the judges?

You´re not a judge here, in this particular battle, so I don´t know what are you talking about..

Since you refused to answer my question about posting respect, I will proceed in the way I´ve always been and try to keep this civilized and organized, but you can act the way you want.

You started the two posts thing(with the "here's my prep and gear, here's my strategy" split up). I didn't get it then and I don't get it now. I've never made two posts back to back before unless I had to follow up on something to get a confirmation from the tourney runner or something.

Making two posts for every time we exchange words needlessly fluffs the post count in this thread and has the negative side effect of pushing us to page two faster.

Look dude, this isn't an issue of respect. You're the one who sends me PMs to get me to respond because I don't answer as soon as you post. I had the limited opportunity of being able to respond in a timely manner, don't throw a fit because I did. You can keep saying what you were going to say and I will respond in kind, it shouldn't affect what you were going to respond to my second post with, anyhow.

Snide doesn't mean false. It means snide. You brushed aside my statement by saying "well I guess we'll just let the judges decide," which doesn't solve the issue at hand. That's why it's snide. Yes, of course the judges will decide. That's what they do.

#26 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12392 posts) - - Show Bio

wow, sore loser already .... voting might as well open.

#27 Edited by HigorM (4227 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: I´ve always acted like that, separating posts according to the subject, to make it easy for me to handle and for the Viners to see.

I also split in two posts because I don´t want to leave a very long post every time.

It´s about respect and character. I´ve sent you one single PM saying "your move" after 2 days since my last post, considering you were active on these two days. In the way put it, it´s looks like I send PM to you every day to rush your answers, and that´s not true at all. I can prove if needed.

Snide means false too, so I interpreted this way. If I don´t agree with you and you don´t agree with me about a topic we can say that we agree in disagree, so since we have judges to decide the matter, we should let them decide it. That doesn´t mean I will "solve" every issue with this premise.

#28 Posted by HigorM (4227 posts) - - Show Bio
#29 Edited by Dredeuced (5833 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm said:

@dredeuced: I´ve always acted like that, separating posts according to the subject, to make it easy for me to handle and for the Viners to see.

I also split in two posts because I don´t want to leave a very long post every time.

It´s about respect and character. I´ve sent you one single PM saying "your move" after 2 days since my last post, considering you were active on these two days. In the way put it, it´s looks like I send PM to you every day to rush your answers, and that´s not true at all. I can prove if needed.

Snide means false too, so I interpreted this way. If I don´t agree with you and you don´t agree with me about a topic we can say that we agree in disagree, so since we have judges to decide the matter, we should let them decide it. That doesn´t mean I will "solve" every issue with this premise.

I don't like the "let the judges decide" when your entire course of action is dictated by something. If the judges go "well I don't think that works" then your entire argument crumbles from the bottom up. It's always superior for us to come to a conclusion on these things, especially something as specific as our characters effectively commencing intel warfare against each other during prep.

Yes, the "Your move" PM happened once, but it still means points out you want me to respond to you quickly. Don't get pissy over the fact that I got a tag, went to the post, and broke it down point by point to respond. It has nothing to do with whether I respect you or think anything about your character, I was just freaking responding to a battle thread. Jesus I can't believe how big of a deal you're making this. Stop being upset and just make your next post.

#30 Posted by HigorM (4227 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't like the "let the judges decide" when your entire course of action is dictated by something. If the judges go "well I don't think that works" then your entire argument crumbles from the bottom up. It's always superior for us to come to a conclusion on these things, especially something as specific as our characters effectively commencing intel warfare against each other during prep.

Yes, the "Your move" PM happened once, but it still means points out you want me to respond to you quickly. Don't get pissy over the fact that I got a tag, went to the post, and broke it down point by point to respond. It has nothing to do with whether I respect you or think anything about your character, I was just freaking responding to a battle thread. Jesus I can't believe how big of a deal you're making this.

If the judges decide my arguments and dabate wasn´t solid enough to pull the win than I will admit my defeat, that´s part of the game, but once again, that´s up to the judges to decide. If you got an issue about it you should ask Diredrill for clarification like I did, instead of complaining, I´m not going to waste my time with you arguing about that.

Doesn´t means I wanted to make you respond quickly, it means that I´ve reached my posting limit and it´s up to you make a move, It´s a friendly gesture if you see the whole picture, what´s the issue about it? Letting you know it´s your turn? I´ve seen people doing that since I got here and this is the first time someone get so snappy about it..

Remember that I just asked if you could please wait my posts until you start to counter, that was all, and you never responded the answer, but start to point out multiple issues.

#31 Edited by Dredeuced (5833 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm said:

@dredeuced said:

I don't like the "let the judges decide" when your entire course of action is dictated by something. If the judges go "well I don't think that works" then your entire argument crumbles from the bottom up. It's always superior for us to come to a conclusion on these things, especially something as specific as our characters effectively commencing intel warfare against each other during prep.

Yes, the "Your move" PM happened once, but it still means points out you want me to respond to you quickly. Don't get pissy over the fact that I got a tag, went to the post, and broke it down point by point to respond. It has nothing to do with whether I respect you or think anything about your character, I was just freaking responding to a battle thread. Jesus I can't believe how big of a deal you're making this.

If the judges decide my arguments and dabate wasn´t solid enough to pull the win than I will admit my defeat, that´s part of the game, but once again, that´s up to the judges to decide. If you got an issue about it you should ask Diredrill for clarification like I did, instead of complaining, I´m not going to waste my time with you arguing about that.

Doesn´t means I wanted to make you respond quickly, it means that I´ve reached my posting limit and it´s up to you make a move, It´s a friendly gesture if you see the whole picture, what´s the issue about it? Letting you know it´s your turn? I´ve seen people doing that since I got here and this is the first time someone get so snappy about it..

Remember that I just asked if you could please wait my posts until you start to counter, that was all, and you never responded the answer, but start to point out multiple issues.

Just keep it to a battle and stop making everything so damn personal. You did this in our freaking PM when I made a joke and now you're turning this thread into some stupid drama that I can't be assed to deal with. I'm not responding to another post like this unless it actually has to freaking do with our thread, okay? I'm literally ignoring everything you say to me from here on out unless it has 100% to do with the battle at hand and not my respect for you or the order in which we're allowed to post. Respond to this with another "but do you respect me and will you let me post 20 times in a row before responding" thing for all I care, I'm done until we actually stop this horrible derail.

#32 Edited by HigorM (4227 posts) - - Show Bio

I literally just asked you to post. I've got nothing to respond to because I've already responded to all your actual posts regarding the actual battle we are having.

I'm gonna respond whenever I have time to respond and see you post. If you want to make a second post after I erspond to your first one I'll respond to the second one, then you can go about responding to both the posts I make since that's what you were going to do anyhow. Me posting before you make a second post literally changes nothing and I'm seriously 100% baffled as to why you're being a gigantic loon about it.

I guess we should stop right here since you began with the offenses, frankly that´s not a conduct of a "judge". I don´t want you to get flagged so it is better that we stop here and get back to the battle itself.

#33 Edited by HigorM (4227 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced:

I wouldn't call what Negative does an abundance. He's one of the lowest tier darkforce users around. That's why he's even a street leveler.

I would, because he possess it in abundance, he got it as intrinsic powers, plus MGH augmentation, and items boost. He´s the only Darkforce user around here. All our characters are street levelers so your point is moot.

Everyone and their mother has corrupted Spider-man, to be fair.

Secondly, why could he imbue optical blasts with dark energy? That's now how the Pig Talisman works. It's just heat vision.

Doubling his range effectively goes from, like, 3 feet to 6 feet I guess?

Having a big list of lower tier magical items doesn't make his darkforce powers better. I don't even get why he'd be able to magically augment his darkforce powers with the Eldritch Sword. The Darkforce isn't magical, is it? It's just another dimension/energy source kind of thing. I know Negative's imparted the Darkforce onto melee weapons before, but that's just generally his range with it anyhow.

Unfortunately that´s another false sentence, fortunately we have knowledgeable and experienced JUDGES to realize that.

He can imbue his optical blasts with dark energy because he is made of it. It´s not just heat vision. Why shouldn´t he be able to do that?

You´re not getting it. Mr. Negative possess the Darkness Ring, which allows him to cover the area with darkness, so there´s not place your team can hide from his range. The Mandarin Ring gives him range.

The Soulsword augments magic. Both Talismans and Shen Gong Wu are magic based, therefore they are boosted. So with them Mr. Negative gains power to exponentially use his Darkforce powers to corrupt the enemies, and doesn´t matter how good they are, they will be bring to the dark side!

- corrupting Shang Chi:

You'd be hardpressed to hide from/surprise someone with the Crystal Glasses and her own Empathy, which allows her to feel negative intent towards her which, I mean, your guy's name is Mister Negative.

I don´t think she will have time to use it in the middle of the battle, but if that´s what you want, be my guest. Mr. Negative will be prepared anyway.

So invisibility and superspeed are hardly a problem

There's no long range showings of Negative's darkforce abilities, even if you double the range that'd still leave him in Nemesis' kill zone.

If he tries to corrupting touch Nemesis, he'll literally be instakilled by the creation blade. I don't care how magically amped you are, the Creation Blades kill super high tier reality warpers (Tao with the power of 3 different reality warpers), it'll kill you through your talismans. Not to mention Zealot is making it her goal to disable your magical character, as is her specialty.

The talismans give him more than invisibility and superspeed. He also possess intangibility. Also, he can use the soulsword to fight Nemesis if needed, he can even corrupt the creation blades and thus Nemesis due to the extent.

Mr. Negative isn´t a reality warper so that feat is irrelevant. Not to mention that Nemesis will be greatly affected by the darkforce since she is using the quantum bands.

He will become invisibile and intangible to difficult enemy strike, than he will manipulate the entire area with the Darkforce ring, making the place suitable for his enemies to be manipulated. He will also use the Shadow Slicer to make holograms of himself to confuse the enemy and disappear after approaching someone, and than complete with the Shadow of Fear to bring the greatest fear of the enemy. This should be enough for him to open a point of vulnerability to strike Nemesis and take her down.

What do you mean my team doesn't have an answer for? You're parading all this magical enhancement to his powers while I've got a literal walking anti magic fighter in Zealot who is specifically gunning for Negative. A quick "deconstruct" from Zealot and, for all his regen, Negative is in a useless pile on the ground for hours. To cancel out your darkforce, all she'd have to do is say "Lightforce" -- as Nico has said the opposite of a power's name to cancel it many a time.

Anti-Magic fighter? So my team will let Zealot free to attack Mr. Negative? I don´t think so, she will be engaged in a fight before she even think about him. Even if she manage to engage him first in a fight, all her magic prowess will be useless since Mr. Negative possess a weapon that disrupts magic energies.

Also, Mr. Negative is also made by light. That´s why his name is negative, he possess both dark and light force within. So I would like to see Zealot say Lightforce and boost him even more.

Both the Martin Li and Mr. Negative personas are the result of experimental drug tests done by Maggia chemist Simon Marshall, the same tests that powered Cloak and Dagger. However, unlike the two heroes, who were each given a power over light and dark, the gang member was given both a light and dark side. As such, Mr. Negative considers himself an embodiment of evil and darkness and both of his personas view the balance of good and evil as a necessary part of the universe. The two halves, while fully aware of one another's existence, take no steps to interfere with one another, with the Martin Li persona even taking such drastic steps as allowing his dark side to corrupt May Parker to keep it a secret.

Negative can't just go "I win, everyone's under my control." For one, again, even doubling his range is very limited. Not to mention my team can, you know, respond to his assaults considering they have full knowledge of all his capabilities thanks to the perk. You're not just gonna stroll in and deal with everything. Hell, how's he even getting past the absurd barrage of adamantium ammo coming his way? Eldritch armor and Talismans or not, a single 20x size bullet hitting him will literally send him flying for hundreds of meters -- I'd like to point out that the rabbit talisman, while granting superspeed, specifically does not increase reaction time, and this attack I've shown Zazie doing has caught people who are massively faster and have much greater reaction time than Negative (Rakan sees bullets in slow motion, he can literally knock several of them out of the air with his fingers at the same time and catch and redirect them with a hoola hoop like device).

Of course not, but his range is unlimited thanks to the Darkforce ring, so all he need to do is use his powers to corrupt the enemies. His teammates can ensure that the enemy team will be too busy to realize Mr. Negative´s intention. One thing is too know the enemy and their weapon, the other is to know what the enemy is going to do with such weapon, and that´s something your team doesn´t know.

Adamantium ammo? Are you freakin kidding me? Mr. Negative can redirect all that back to you anytime he wants using teleportation discs:

The combination of rabbit talisman (super speed) and Rooster (levitation) makes him able to achieve supersonic flight speeds. Also, Mr. Negative at base levels already possess bullet time reaction, since he was able to dodge and cut in half with his sword a bullet fired by The Hood:

With you having already ceded against it working against Blink, the last member of my team who's not proactively doing something about it is Alita. And frankly, trying to come at Alita, even with superspeed and invisibility, will spell an instant put down for Negative. She's got precognition, a specific power that allows her to see your weakness, and the ability to sense him on the molecular level, making any speedy, invisible attacks plain as day. Thankfully, Negative shouldn't know anything about this and would rush blinding into a phasing Alita who could blast him with a Tactigon. The Tactigon's weakness exploitation combined with Alita's own powers will quite easily outpace your defenses (it has one shotted far higher durability beings).

Frankly, if Negative and your team's goal is to send him in and try to corrupt my team, he'll fail quite horridly. I don't think he has a single good interaction with anyone on my team.

I don´t really know if it would work but it would be a waste of time to try it, and too dangerous too, so no.. Excuse me if I am wrong but as far as I´m concerned, precognition gives you a picture of the future and not knowledge about the enemy weakness, unless you have ways to prove it. But even than, Negative is going for Nemesis since she is a real threat with the Quantum Bands, and he is the most qualified to take her down with Darkforce. Also, this is not just about durability, Mr. Negative is far more versatile than that, all his new powers combined with his own turns him pratically unbeatable, as already explained above, he was never born so he can never die.

#37 Edited by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: @higorm: Wow some stuff went down here! I am sorry, I was at work during all this, I might have been able to mediate, maybe. I hope that I can resolve the issues at hand.

Prep:

Prep is for planning, swapping equipment, and generally getting things worked out. You cannot directly interact with your foes. The Crystal Glasses and Phoenix Googling would work.

Kuzusu Atom + Reversing Mirror:

These are the words that will be used when determining how the Reversing Mirror effects things because they come directly from the Scroll. It clearly says Vaporize here and the opposite of Vaporize is Condense. So for the purposes of this thread, the Reversing Mirror empowered Kuzusu Atom would condense objects making them more dense/organized. For example, you fire it at a lump of coal and you get a diamond.

#38 Edited by Dredeuced (5833 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

I would, because he possess it in abundance, he got it as intrinsic powers, plus MGH augmentation, and items boost. He´s the only Darkforce user around here. All our characters are street levelers so your point is moot.

My point is not moot. If a street leveler's worth of the power is what you've got then it can't be too astronomical or abundant. I've pointed out why, even with the MGH, he isn't getting a lot of it.

Unfortunately that´s another false sentence, fortunately we have knowledgeable and experienced JUDGES to realize that.

Don't pander.

He can imbue his optical blasts with dark energy because he is made of it. It´s not just heat vision. Why shouldn´t he be able to do that?

That's not how the talismans work, though. They don't shoot a part of your body, they just shoot magical eye beams. Why would they carry the darkforce? Has he ever imparted his Darkforce onto an energy beam before? The most I've seen him do is impart it onto a sword.

You´re not getting it. Mr. Negative possess the Darkness Ring, which allows him to cover the area with darkness, so there´s not place your team can hide from his range. The Mandarin Ring gives him range.

There is a difference between darkness and the darkforce. Making an area dark does not extend the range or projection of his darkforce manipulation abilities, does it? I believe the Mandarin ring using darkforce was a rumor/myth, not something it actually does. His ring's just called "Nightbringer." Even still, his corruppting touch is a touch. I don't think he's ever shown the power worked as anything beyond a touch, has he? Doubling 0 range is still 0, even if you double its efficacy. My point is, touching Nemesis won't work because she's got two forms of precognition, massive superspeed from the Quantum Bands, and a sword that will kill negative no matter how many magical enhancements he has.

The Soulsword augments magic. Both Talismans and Shen Gong Wu are magic based, therefore they are boosted. So with them Mr. Negative gains power to exponentially use his Darkforce powers to corrupt the enemies, and doesn´t matter how good they are, they will be bring to the dark side!

Right, my specific point is that Zealot has the soul sword as well. All of her magical abilities are amped to the same degree Negative's are. Even moreso because she is a more experienced user of magic from her Wildcats vol 1 days and she's got a more powerful individual artifact (Staff of One) than the Wu or Talismans, on top of her own set of those pieces of gear. Whatever magical defenses the Eldritch Sword gives you, Zealot's magical offense should supersede because of the eldritch sword + staff of one combo.

Secondly, are Mister Negative's powers magical in nature? How is having the soulsword, an object that enhances magic, allowing him to exponentially increase his darkforce powers? Careful how you answer this one.

I don´t think she will have time to use it in the middle of the battle, but if that´s what you want, be my guest. Mr. Negative will be prepared anyway.

What do you mean she won't have the time to use it? She uses it automatically. It's like Spider-Sense. How will Mr. Negative be prepared?

The talismans give him more than invisibility and superspeed. He also possess intangibility. Also, he can use the soulsword to fight Nemesis if needed, he can even corrupt the creation blades and thus Nemesis due to the extent.

Which talisman gives intangibility? Because none of them do, as I'm aware. It's why I had to get Moonstones and the Serpent's tail for Zealot, Zazie and Alita.

He cannot corrupt the Creation Blades. That is well and truly well beyond his scope of ability to do. Universal level reality warpers can't do things to the creation blades, a guy who manipulate the darkforce at a low level is doing jack nothing.

Mr. Negative isn´t a reality warper so that feat is irrelevant. Not to mention that Nemesis will be greatly affected by the darkforce since she is using the quantum bands.

Tao's powers were true blue creation control. He overpowered a very powerful mage known as Voodoo upon gaining his powers:

Despite previously knowing nothing about magic. There's no type of defense that Tao did not have, yet the creation blades sullied his powers. If it can hurt a guy who had mastered every aspect of creation far beyond the levels of power we're handling, then it can hurt a guy who's got an eldritch sword and talismans that are limited in their capacity.

The Quantum Bands don't make you more susceptible to the Darkforce, they just can't manipulate its energy. Like I said, if Negative wants to get in range of Nemesis to try to push his advantage, he risks having the deadliest sword in comics deal with him.

He will become invisibile and intangible to difficult enemy strike, than he will manipulate the entire area with the Darkforce ring, making the place suitable for his enemies to be manipulated. He will also use the Shadow Slicer to make holograms of himself to confuse the enemy and disappear after approaching someone, and than complete with the Shadow of Fear to bring the greatest fear of the enemy. This should be enough for him to open a point of vulnerability to strike Nemesis and take her down.

Holograms cannot confuse anyone on my team thanks to their enhanced senses. All of them have either precognition, crystal glasses, molecular awareness, or Blink's Phoenix Fragment.. The Shadow of Fear has limited range and if you attempt to use it on Nemesis, she will use her reversing mirror. This will turn the Shadow of Fear back on Negative, or inspire my team instead of causing them fear, whichever works for you.

If you really, really want me to counter you making things dark with the Mandarin ring then I will have Zealot, whose job I've made it to keep your more magically oriented Negative in check, cast a "light" spell of with the Staff of One. Happy? I didn't think it a necessary conclusion but I'd rather not leave the dangling issue.

Anti-Magic fighter? So my team will let Zealot free to attack Mr. Negative? I don´t think so, she will be engaged in a fight before she even think about him. Even if she manage to engage him first in a fight, all her magic prowess will be useless since Mr. Negative possess a weapon that disrupts magic energies.

Is that so? You've only had Negative and Bane do stuff so far. Veranke and Omega Red have been noticeably absent from the festivities and it seems we're content to have Gorgon and Blink do things telepathically. Your team will have their hands full dealing with mine, as well, as my team has generally superior speed to your other members thanks to Amazon Armories and/or Talismans on everyone but Blink who has the Fragment and Nemesis who has the Bands for superspeed. Heck, while you listed all the gear Bane has, I think I did a very good job pointing out how nearly everyone on my team has him beat in stats -- if he went one on one with Alita or Nemesis or Zazie, he's well and truly outmatched, as well. I think my speed advantage clearly lets me choose my matchups. You've also made it a prerogative to have Negative try to exploit his darkforce advantage on Nemesis, meaning he has to close in on my team to attack her, bringing him to Zealot, not the other way around.

You have a weapon that disrupts magical energies? I have a weapon that disrupts magical energies! We've been over this before, Zealot can match your Eldritch Sword with hers and counter it moreso with the Staff of One and here greater experience with magic from her history.

Also, Mr. Negative is also made by light. That´s why his name is negative, he possess both dark and light force within. So I would like to see Zealot say Lightforce and boost him even more.

Mr. Negative doesn't get more powerful when things are bright outside. There's no reason to think magical illumination makes him stronger.

Of course not, but his range is unlimited thanks to the Darkforce ring, so all he need to do is use his powers to corrupt the enemies.

I would like verification that the Nightbringer ring is actually darkforce. I'd also like confirmation that his corrupting touch can increase its range beyond, well, corrupting touch's range because of it.

His teammates can ensure that the enemy team will be too busy to realize Mr. Negative´s intention. One thing is too know the enemy and their weapon, the other is to know what the enemy is going to do with such weapon, and that´s something your team doesn´t know.

How? Because you say so? What's to stop Alita from walking all over either Omega or Veranke? She massively outclasses either of them and Nemesis handed her a creation blade. That + the tactigon + her double superspeed from the armory and talismans makes it so that, should one of your two free dudes actually try to pull something, they get handily taken out.

Tell me how Spider-Woman or Omega Red deal with a tactigon shot to the grill or a creation blade through the sternum from someone whose hundreds to thousands of times faster than them, has precognition, and also has a 100 foot high artillery unit in Zazie firing invisible giant bullets at them.

Adamantium ammo? Are you freakin kidding me? Mr. Negative can redirect all that back to you anytime he wants using teleportation discs:

This is a scan of magic redirecting one bullet. Now show me the scan of her redirecting 10,000 a second. Now show me her redirecting 10,000 invisible bullets a second from someone with much better marksmanship than a mook. Now make all those bullets x20 in size. Then you'll have an argument. Until then, Negative and the rest of your team are getting plastered. One teleport disc does not stop thousand upon thousands of giant bullets.

So no, he can't redirect "all" of that back at me. I'll give you four or five based on that scan. Now account for the other 9,995 a second and how the rest of your team survives. Remember, it looks something like this:

but 20x bigger and invisible.

The combination of rabbit talisman (super speed) and Rooster (levitation) makes him able to achieve supersonic flight speeds. Also, Mr. Negative at base levels already possess bullet time reaction, since he was able to dodge and cut in half with his sword a bullet fired by The Hood:

Bullets are still faster than that. Bullet time reactions won't save you from this attack, either. You or I can dodge someone throwing a small ball at us at 20mph, right? But neither you or I, despite our reflexes to react to it, can dodge someone throwing 10,000 as second, especially if each ball was the size of our fist. This is not an attack that is solved by bullet time reflexes. Rakan pictured above has reflexes enough to do this:

Yeah, catch a bullet with his teeth then throw it back fast enough that it had the same velocity as a futuristic pistol (These things take out armored cards and concrete walls in a couple of shots, mind you) And his only answer to this attack was hiding underground because it was completely undodgeable.

I will edit this later

I waited a few hours. Please don't be angry that I responded to your post. If you want to add anything, feel free to make another post and I will respond to it in kind. This is honestly what I should've said the first time rather than make an argument out of it and I apologize.

@diredrill

Prep is for planning, swapping equipment, and generally getting things worked out. You cannot directly interact with your foes. The Crystal Glasses and Phoenix Googling would work.

I have already conceded that his fragment would give him knowledge of my Marvel related gear, even if it's a stretch of the one feat. That said, if both our teams have the crystal glasses, that means they will both see the same basic future. Upon seeing the future with the crystal glasses, you are allowed to change it as the Xiaolin Monks did. That means, whatever future we both saw won't happen and we have to go about our battle as usual. That's the only way I can see us concluding the prep in a way that makes sense, atleast.

Now I will address this at HigorM. I already pointed out that even if he can see the future, that would not give him full knowledge of my gear and abilities. Being able to see Alita react to something with her precognition would not automatically tell you it's precognition, for instance, just that she has some sort of senses. Seeing someone get killed with the creation blades won't tell you that they're creation blades or that they have specific power negating effects that work on a fundamental level. Seeing Zazie execute her 10,000/second strategy while invisible doesn't mean he can ignore it -- he still needs to come up with a counter etc etc. They don't give full knowledge, merely a glimpse at what my team does with the items. Variable gear such as the Tactigon or Staff of One won't be confined to a single type of ability that can be countered.

Whatever insight he gets on my plans, I will have triply so as I have 3 people with the crystal glasses (Since he can't reversing mirror me, now) and full knowledge of his gear, abilities and weaknesses. That said, there hasn't been much of a plan -- he has had Negative do a lot of stuff, but Omega and Veranke seem to be standing around and Bane's entire purpose so far in this thread has been "Well he comes up with a plan because he's great at prepping," despite him not enacting any kind of plan yet -- listing his gear and the fact that he's very strong is nice, but it doesn't make him a good matchup for people who are much stronger, much faster, and have superior weaponry, and have a stone cold counter to his battle computer.

#39 Posted by HigorM (4227 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced:

That's exactly what you were doing. This was after you tried to say how being the top members of the Coda Sisterhood doesn't qualify them to be tactically sound.

No. I was not doubting them, I just said you can´t compare them with Batman, a character that is around for decades showing every issue why he is the best in this field, so your team members aren´t in the same level as he is.

That's actually exactly what it means. That's sort of the rap you get when you pick villains -- they have decades of consistent failures in situations where they had the prep advantage. I wouldn't trust my team in the hands of a guy with a very negative winrate.

Yes, but here it´s all about proving that your strategy can work despite their past showing, if we had to take what you said into account we doesn´t even need to waste our times debating since "villains always lose", this kind of thinking can´t be applied at tournament battles. Bane is very competent and capable, respected by both heroes and villains, so that´s why I choose him.

Psh, Avengers have done fine without cap before. It's not like Cap made Thor better at beating up Void or whatever, if you catch my drift. Cap is usually quite irrelevant when cosmic forces show up, and that's what we're dealing with.

Cap is far from being irrelevant, otherwise he wouldn´t be the leader of the Avengers, sorry but you´re quite wrong. The team acts better with him around, using his strategic mind to put every piece in it´s place so the whole team can reach the goal together as one.

I mean, do I have to point out how Nemesis was one of the quickest learners in the Coda? Or how Zealot was it's top practitioner? A brilliant mind doesn't compare to a brilliant mind with much, much more honing in a superior environment.

I don´t doubt that but Bane has more consistent showing in that department, and for me I do believe that Zealot is more to experience than planning. Bane was enough genius to take on a guy who was able to take on the JLA by himself so what he got is enough here since he got extra help from characters to special gear.

I will certainly downplay Bane's credentials as a prep master when he more often fails than succeeds, and fails against street levelers. He isn't a great leader, he is completely inexperienced in dealing with powers of this magnitude (of which none of my team are) and he fails time and time again. Quoting wikis about just how dang smart he is sometimes doesn't make up for his countless failings to Batman -- a 0 prep Batman who wasn't juggling cosmic weapons.

You´re taking random fights that had nothing to do with prep to justify your downplaing. Bane already proved himself to be a great leader, and also firmly established himself as ruler of Gotham's criminal underworld, with no challenge despite all Batman´s rogues gallery around. He was the leader of the Secret Six being responsible for member recruinting, something he did in the past too.

No need to get snide about it, bro. I don't MIND you using my scan(I said scan, not comic. I did make the scan, I never said I made the comic), I was just pointing it out as a bit of pride for me considering I did the research on it. I mean, I know it's the scan I made and you got it from my match with TDLP because it's got the exact same resolution and cut off (which I used so it wouldn't be too big/too hard to read). Honestly, I just used it to get info on my opponent's starting location, I think you're overstretching an underutilized feat.

Fair enough.

I believe i´m right to say that the Phoenix possess infinite knowledge around the marvel universe, so I will use that knowledge to obtain all the info I need about your marvel characters and what they are/were capable of doing. That´s part of the plan to be aware of the enemies capabilities since I don´t start with full knowledge, but have 1 hour to work this out.

It isn't an instakill, but it will specifically tailor itself to harm an enemy through their defenses, stacked up with Alita's own precognition and weakness insight. Anyone who isn't sporting high tier durability like Gorgon would be duly disabled. If someone's immortal, it can shoot them with a stunning field (like it did Ultimo) to disable them for the majority of the fight. I don't HAVE to kill your immortal guys to make them unimportant in the fight. Tactigon might as well be named the versatility gun.

Understood, but can you show me scans of what you´ve just said? Looks like this gun lacks of real demonstrations to be used like that specially in a fight of this magnitude, since the gun itself can be neutralized, considering that the Tactigon may be sentient, because when bonded with K.I.A. he revealed that the Tactigon has the ability to feel fear. So all Mr. Negative have to do is use the Shadow of Fear to bring to life it´s worst nightmare and your versatility gun is out of the game.

This is nonsense. How smart Bane is has nothing to do with whether he knows my team has a reversing mirror or not, or whether we get the same amount of prep as you do. He would literally have to be naturally clairvoyant without the Crystal Glasses to know that my team can counter the Crystal Glasses. He doesn't just get to know what gear works and doesn't work for his prep. He can't use the battle computer to figure out what items my team has because the Battle Computer A: has to scan things to determine what they do B: doesn't have any info on what gear my team has to run out of combat calculations and C: how is the battle computer going to find out what gear I have?

You're right, though. Our gear is not 100% equivalent. I basically have most of your gear and then some. I've just doubled up on SGW/Talismans while you got rings and the computer (which I've pointed out is literally useless against a team with T-masks).

I´m waiting for @diredrill response to talk about this.

I mean I'm one of the judges but whatevs. My main problem with you using the crystal glasses is you specifically said I couldn't use my 3 pairs against you because you had the reversing mirror, but you can use yours against me when I have 2 reversing mirrors. I've got the same gear in duplicates but you can somehow use yours better than me. It's a double standard merely to benefit yourself.

Speaking of Shen Gong Wu, you know I have 4 Mala Mala Jongs with the Gloves of Jisaku, right? The Gloves steal opponent's shen gong wu. Coming into the fight you're going to start losing most of your gear (I won't be able to use it, sadly, rules are rules) that you're relying on.

I was just putting on the table that my extra time for prep would give me advantages in the usage of the items, since I can protect the team from you during the initial five minutes and than work things out with the Shen Gong Wu by the next one hour that your team doesn´t have. Also, I had no intention to use Crystal Glasses during the battle since that would be waste of time because we won´t have time to do it, so that´s why I have prep time to use them properly.

I mean, his capabilities are losing to Batman most of the time. Hell he's lost to Nightwing before, too. Bane's track record/capabilities aren't the most touted in the comic universe.

Atleast Zealot and Nemesis can fight Midnighter to a standstill for awhile, lol.

Once again you´re bringing random fights that have nothing to do with prep capabilities. Show me when Bane lost to Nightwing before? Because Bane already trashed him like nothing..

There are other fights against Batman, Killer Croc and Azrael when Bane put him down with a single punch while off Venom..

Could you please stop copy pasting the same text over and over? It floods the thread with info the judges are already aware of.

And like I said, you specifically used the word vaporize. What's the antonym of vaporize? solidify! Not to mention you keep harping about it destroying shen gong wu, but ignore that if it's powerful enough to destroy SGW, why wouldn't it destroy the reversing mirror? There's so many holes in the idea (not the least of which is it makes no sense) that I can't believe you're still relying on it.

It´s not the same text I was just being didatic since it was looking like you don´t understood my premise. I don´t get why someone can use the Kuzusu Atom to make another Shen Gong Wu disappear but can´t use it in the same way to make it appear, that´s ilogical. It wouldn´t destroy the Reversing Mirrror because of it´s true nature to revert the effect..

I mean sure, I don't care too much. That said it'd only protect you from inhaled chemicals and anything that lands on your face. They'd still burn your skin and such and the radiation was always the more dangerous part and the part I focused on.

Okay but I never said it would be enough to protect from radiation, I was very clear saying it would protect against chemicals, that´s why I gave other forms to counter the radiation issue, that I never forget to approach since the issue first came to the table.

No, it specifically says the entire area is flooded. The heart is where you go to turn down the radiation levels so it's more hospitable. But go ahead and keep going "I GUESS SOMEONE DIDN'T READ" over and over and over. Belittling me won't help your case.

You´re wrong again, the entire area is flooded, yes, BUT, there´s a specific area that contains MORE radiation than the rest of the map, that specific area is called Chemos Heart:

Chemo's Heart lies at the center of the map, obtaining it will allow you to reduce the radiation around your team. Getting to it will be difficult because it is emitting radiation at doses that will kill an unprotected human in half a second.

I was not belittling you, I was just trying to make myself clear, since you're failing to understand the obvious. Maybe @diredrill can help us out here again to solve this new issue.

...How is the battlefield unnecessary? You kidding me with that? You were just going to ignore a gigantic hazardous environment like it was no big deal for the entire fight? Suit yourself, that's a terrible plan. You needed to explain why your team doesn't roast away in seconds to the radiation or the Judges would've easily said "Higorm never addressed the radiation" etc. You don't just ignore major tenants of the combat. That's like say "I never addressed your argument because I thought my team wins without me having to justify it."

I never said the battlefield was unnecessary, again, I said that the 'radiation issue" was a unnecessary discussion since both teams have ways to neutralize this problem considering their new godlike powers, so it would be irrational to waste time debating that, but I guess I was wrong.. so if you want to go there I´m fine. I don´t think the judges will give you the win just because of it but you can dream with that if you want no problem..

No, it vaporizes them in your own text. The Atom also has to have a target. It doesn't destroy something out of nothingness. It's a baseless statement that was never shown in the show that has the following problems:

PS: if you're going to show a 22 minute video to back up your argument, atleast point out which part of the video you are specifying supports your argument.

I never said it wouldnt have a target, Bane can make use of the extra prep time to work it out. I´ve proved that the Kuzusu Atom made another SGW disappear, also posted that the Reversing Mirror was able to reverse other SGW so why this combo isn´t legit? But I´m not going to discuss this anymore since @diredrill already stabilished that this combination is not an avaiable option, so let´s move on..

As for the video, I said I'd edit and edited, so that was just a matter of patience :)

#40 Posted by HigorM (4227 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced:

I waited a few hours. Please don't be angry that I responded to your post. If you want to add anything, feel free to make another post and I will respond to it in kind. This is honestly what I should've said the first time rather than make an argument out of it and I apologize.

No problem, I´m not angry, and I apologize too..

I will try to respond to your last post still today okay?

#41 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio
#42 Edited by Dredeuced (5833 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Can I respond yet? This is the last day before voting. I'm kind of confused on the situation, this is why I prefer to keep things to one post and not make 3 different posts to counter and reiterate.

#43 Posted by HigorM (4227 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Sure, sorry for the delay, I couldn´t get back here as soon as I wanted, so you can proceed if you want, I will post again later, but still before voting ok?

#44 Edited by Dredeuced (5833 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Alright, here's my final salvo I guess.

No. I was not doubting them, I just said you can´t compare them with Batman, a character that is around for decades showing every issue why he is the best in this field, so your team members aren´t in the same level as he is.

Why's that? Does Bane have the strategic and tactical aptitude to stall Midnighter for hours and later hand him defeat?

The infamous battle computer that plans every scenario a million times? The ultimate prep device? Countered. She literally has more combat experience than everyone in this fight combined if you exclude Nemesis. Hell she might have 10 times that amount. She deals with world conquering super beings on a daily basis. Doesn't compare to Batman? Batman doesn't compare to Midnighter.

Speaking of people who've dealt with Midnighter, Nemesis herself has invaded the authority, stolen their info, and gotten out scott clean before with the barest of prep:

Admittedly, she did have help from Savant and Backlash, but this was her plan and she executed it brilliantly. She played around their weaknesses and even got the upperhand on Midnighter in a fight while fighting 1 vs 2 or 3 (Depending on which point in the fight). I'd also like to say that having help probably isn't a negative -- we are in a team environment and being a good prepper around a team benefits more than a solo prepper for this scenario.

Now I know Bane's done some neat things like when he outplayed Batman, tired him out, and broke his back. But does that compare to completely duping the freaking Authority? I'd say not. I know he's become the leader of some super villain gangs before, but Nemesis is literally the Greek God of Vengeance from her exploits. Doesn't compare to Batman? Really?

Onto Zazie. Zazie's most prominent fight vs Rakan:

Against a massively superior opponent in a fight that goes on forever (this was only like 1/6th of the pages in the fight) when she had 0 knowledge of her opponent coming into the fight, she planned everything down to literally the last bullet. How well do you think Bane would fare with such odds with all of this prep you're touting? I don't mean to say put Bane vs Rakan, but under the same extenuating, high pressure circumstances, I think it's safe to say it's practically impossible for Bane to claim to have a superior tactical mind to the greatest tactical mind on her planet in Zazie. The same goes for batman, who you seem to think is so superior to my team. My team of characters who I believe you're not well versed in -- so it's hardly your call to make.

Alita has similar showings of beating stronger opponents through intuitive thinking, but it's less impressive because of her Chi giving her precognition and weakness exploitation so it's not worth going into as much. Needless to say, I'm not buying this "Bane's smarter than your team," point you've made.

I'd also like to say that Batman didn't take the JLA out by himself. For one, his plans failed. Secondly, Ras Al-Ghul was the one who took the plans, altered them to make them more deadly/effective, then enacted it with his superior resources. And he had a lot more than 1 hour.

Give Bane an hour of prep and he doesn't come close to repeating the same things Nemesis, Zazie and Zealot have done with mere seconds to come up with a plan. Their improvised strategies are better than his grandiose plans to take down Batman more often than not (accounting for his failures).

I believe i´m right to say that the Phoenix possess infinite knowledge around the marvel universe, so I will use that knowledge to obtain all the info I need about your marvel characters and what they are/were capable of doing. That´s part of the plan to be aware of the enemies capabilities since I don´t start with full knowledge, but have 1 hour to work this out.

I honestly kind of want to contest this. The Phoenix clearly doesn't give truly infinite knowledge because Mr Sinister, for instance, tricked the Phoenix 5 when they invaded his kingdom, and the Phoenix 5 didn't know where the Avengers had gone off to when they went to K'un-L'un. I believe the Phoenix can glean relevant information to a situation, but hell, Phoenix Jean has been tricked and confused so many times I think claiming infinite knowledge for any form of phoenix host is folly. Even when I used the feat I showed you, I only used it for very basic knowledge like my opponent's starting position on a map.

Like I said before, you're stretching a feat that doesn't have much explanation to how it worked to literal infinite knowledge. It's truly a no limits fallacy and abuses the spirit of what I meant when I used it as a feat.

Understood, but can you show me scans of what you´ve just said? Looks like this gun lacks of real demonstrations to be used like that specially in a fight of this magnitude, since the gun itself can be neutralized, considering that the Tactigon may be sentient, because when bonded with K.I.A. he revealed that the Tactigon has the ability to feel fear. So all Mr. Negative have to do is use the Shadow of Fear to bring to life it´s worst nightmare and your versatility gun is out of the game.

I do not have scans of the Tactigon, but its abilities and the way it one shotted ultimo are common knowledge.

I've already addressed the Shadow of Fear. Alita has precognition and the reversing mirror. If you try to shadow of fear her or her Tactigon, she will reverse the effect onto Mr. Negative and he will become fearful for his own life.

Once again you´re bringing random fights that have nothing to do with prep capabilities. Show me when Bane lost to Nightwing before? Because Bane already trashed him like nothing..

This one is my bad, I misremembered the showing. It was in Gotham Knights #34 and it was a battle simulation (though Batman's simulations are how he plans for and defeats guys like Bane as well, not for nothing).

My main point was, for all of his planning, Bane is not greatly accomplished as a preps genius and isn't clearly superior to my team when it comes to planning out a battle, especially dealing with high powered gear -- stuff everyone on my team deals with frequently.

You´re wrong again, the entire area is flooded, yes, BUT, there´s a specific area that contains MORE radiation than the rest of the map, that specific area is called Chemos Heart:

Chemo's Heart lies at the center of the map, obtaining it will allow you to reduce the radiation around your team. Getting to it will be difficult because it is emitting radiation at doses that will kill an unprotected human in half a second.

That the radiation is more deadly in the Heart doesn't mean it's a non factor outside of it. You're nitpicking and avoiding the spirit of my argument.

I never said the battlefield was unnecessary, again, I said that the 'radiation issue" was a unnecessary discussion since both teams have ways to neutralize this problem considering their new godlike powers, so it would be irrational to waste time debating that, but I guess I was wrong.. so if you want to go there I´m fine. I don´t think the judges will give you the win just because of it but you can dream with that if you want no problem..

The judges don't have to give me a win for one specific part of the argument. They evaluate the entire argument and judge the whole thing. The battlefield is part of the argument and it's not something to put aside. Some of your members aren't actually godlike in power so it's rather important to bring up in reference to them.

I never said it wouldnt have a target, Bane can make use of the extra prep time to work it out. I´ve proved that the Kuzusu Atom made another SGW disappear, also posted that the Reversing Mirror was able to reverse other SGW so why this combo isn´t legit? But I´m not going to discuss this anymore since @diredrill already stabilished that this combination is not an avaiable option, so let´s move on..

As for the video, I said I'd edit and edited, so that was just a matter of patience :)

All well and good to me, I excluded the parts of your post that had to deal with the Atom+Mirror thing.

My final little bit that isn't reactionary:

I believe I've no sold your combat computers with the T-Masks. While I respect Midnighter's feats and the computer itself, the main reason I never got one is because I knew cheap T-Masks would flood the tournament and render them moot. I've done as much here.

I have you outgunned in magical artifacts when you compare my SGW and Talismans list to yours if only through sheer numbers, and my misc artifacts like the Eldritch swords and my Staff of One. My main magical item user also has more experience dealing with magical gear.

Your most powerful member is Gorgon who is matched by my Blink. While practically no one on your team can even harm my Blink besides Gorgon, I have two members of my team besides Blink equipped with weapons that can definitively hurt him with the Creation Blades with Nemesis and Alita. They are also equipped with gear that allows them to stand up to him without getting OHKO'd in an attempt to bring him down with Nemesis' Quantum Bands (which have solid showings vs the full Phoenix) and Alita's decked loadout of Talismans, Amazon Armory, Moonstone (Phasing + Creation blade is a nasty combo) and here incredible base stats and skills like precognition and weakness exploitation.

While the Darkforce is a respectable counter to the Quantum Bands, the amount of Darkforce you can channel doesn't see too threatening relative to my team at large because it's restricted by Negative's own feats. While impressive feats for a street leveler, they're a bit lacking when my other characters step up to the plate.

While we've both talked about our big guns plenty (My Nemesis and Zealot to your Bane and Negative), I believe I've garnered a significant edge with my other members relative to yours. While we both seemed content to let Gorgon and Blink pseudo cancel each other out (though I did make note multiple times of how else I could deal with Gorgon), I feel like Zazie and Alita contribute a lot more to my forces, so far in this debate, than your Omega Red or Spider-Woman. Alita alone seems capable of soloing them and I still feel you haven't done much to effectively counter how Zazie's sending a tidal wave of super bullets at your team.

Finally, I think a lot of your strategies are reaches. The Atom+Mirror thing, even before overturned by Diredrill, seemed rather obtuse to me. The way you describe Negative using his darkforce in combination with his gear never seemed thoroughly explained or quantified. Your doting of Bane's prep skills lacked actual substance because, even if he's a good prepster, you can't rely on the hypothetical that he's better at coming up with a plan when you don't come up with a major plan yourself. Your goal seemed to be to tout your weapons and powers but nothing much beyond that.

That's it for my overly wordy analysis and final post. Good luck.

#45 Edited by HigorM (4227 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced:

My point is not moot. If a street leveler's worth of the power is what you've got then it can't be too astronomical or abundant. I've pointed out why, even with the MGH, he isn't getting a lot of it.

That´s incorrect. He possess in abundance because he showed it already, being able to corrupt several characters, from bad to good ones (Shang Chi, Spider-Man), while still manipulating his lackeys, the Inner Demons, also his showing against Eddie Brock, just one touch of him was enough to cause his cancerous cells to completely disappear, hence, the remains of the Venom symbiote fuse with Brock's white blood cells, causes him to become the Anti-Venom.

So if he was able to do all that at his normal levels, imagine what he can do with the effectiveness of his powers duplicated. Another thing, his corruption is more effective the more good the affected person was before his conversion, correct me if I´m wrong, but your team is composed of heroes/good characters so..

That's not how the talismans work, though. They don't shoot a part of your body, they just shoot magical eye beams. Why would they carry the darkforce? Has he ever imparted his Darkforce onto an energy beam before? The most I've seen him do is impart it onto a sword.

Darkforce isn´t part of Mr. Negative´s body, it´s part of his power, which is able to corrupt objects with black electrical energy so what is a talisman if not an object? The 10 talismans will be corrupted with darkforce, then mistically augmented through the SoulSword, so Mr. Negative can explored them in it´s magnitude. So the optical beam comes from inside, and all he has inside is Darkforce, so yes, he can shot a corrupting heat beam to tag your team members from distance.

There is a difference between darkness and the darkforce. Making an area dark does not extend the range or projection of his darkforce manipulation abilities, does it? I believe the Mandarin ring using darkforce was a rumor/myth, not something it actually does. His ring's just called "Nightbringer." Even still, his corruppting touch is a touch. I don't think he's ever shown the power worked as anything beyond a touch, has he? Doubling 0 range is still 0, even if you double its efficacy. My point is, touching Nemesis won't work because she's got two forms of precognition, massive superspeed from the Quantum Bands, and a sword that will kill negative no matter how many magical enhancements he has.

If they are different or not it doesn´t matter, since you use darkforce to create darkness. So Mr. Negative have both Darkforce and a Black Ring to extend his range of darkforce.

Right Hand - Little Finger - Black Light/Darkness Ring:

The ring can create an area of absolute darkness that absorb all light used within it. Although "black light" is a term used to refer to ultraviolet radiation, the darkness created by the ring is probably a form of the "darkforce" used by Cloak, Darkstar, and the Shroud. The gem is shaped like four tiny black-blue dots, arranged in a square shape in groups of two.

Also, Temujin pretty much confirmed that it was darkforce manipulation when he used the Ring to shut down Spot's powers for a chat.

Please understand that it´s actually and officially a Darkforce manipulation device, which can be used to control the abilities of Darkforce powered individuals, and it can also be used for dimension dump, something that has been used all of twice in the artifact's career: once by the Mandarin, and once by Temugin against Spot, as already exaplained.

Right, my specific point is that Zealot has the soul sword as well. All of her magical abilities are amped to the same degree Negative's are. Even moreso because she is a more experienced user of magic from her Wildcats vol 1 days and she's got a more powerful individual artifact (Staff of One) than the Wu or Talismans, on top of her own set of those pieces of gear. Whatever magical defenses the Eldritch Sword gives you, Zealot's magical offense should supersede because of the eldritch sword + staff of one combo.

Secondly, are Mister Negative's powers magical in nature? How is having the soulsword, an object that enhances magic, allowing him to exponentially increase his darkforce powers? Careful how you answer this one.

Can you show me or prove me that. I can´t see a reason to agree that her magical abilities are amped in the same way of Mr. Negative, since Martin Li doesn´t have innate magical abilities, but darkforce powers, so for him makes sense. I agree she will have more facility to learn how to use the SoulSword but that´s pretty much it, since my characters had 3 months to learn it, he should be fine. Also, she can´t strike Mr. Negative with magic since he possess a sword that disrupts magic, doesn´t matter how many other magical artefacts you may have, the Soulsword will disrupt them. In top of that, there´s a list of used spells that Zealot doesn´t have ways to be aware so if she repeat one of those the Staff won´t work properly.

I believe that I´ve already explained it, but I can do it again. I´ve already proved that Mr. Negative possess great darkforce output, further enhanced by the MGH shot. Most of his items are magic based, the Soulsword enhances magic, so since he can corrupt solid objects, he can merge them with darkforce and than use the Soulsword to amp them greatly enhancing their already great power.

What do you mean she won't have the time to use it? She uses it automatically. It's like Spider-Sense. How will Mr. Negative be prepared?

I´m just saying it might not work properly in the heat of the battle, I don´t remember anyone using it like that. Yes, he will be prepared since the team possess extra prep time and Crystal Glasses too.

Which talisman gives intangibility? Because none of them do, as I'm aware. It's why I had to get Moonstones and the Serpent's tail for Zealot, Zazie and Alita.

Sheep

First seen in "Project A, for Astral". Gives the user the power of Astral Projection, or the ability to eject the soul from the body and wander as a spirit. In this form, one is invisible, inaudible, and able to fly, pass through walls, and enter a person's dreams (where one can be seen and heard). Shendu was also able to possess Jade when both of their astral forms had left their bodies. It was first found in a crate on a train. Despite all of its uses, it is next to useless in a fight, as both Jackie Chan and Finn have stated at some point.

First used by Jade. The Sheep is the least commonly used Talisman.

It's also shown one can use the talisman to eject the souls of other people other than the holder as Daolon Wong demonstrates.

He cannot corrupt the Creation Blades. That is well and truly well beyond his scope of ability to do. Universal level reality warpers can't do things to the creation blades, a guy who manipulate the darkforce at a low level is doing jack nothing.

Tao's powers were true blue creation control. He overpowered a very powerful mage known as Voodoo upon gaining his powers

Well, unless you can prove me that the creation blades possess immunity to darkforce I will say that Mr. Negative can corrupt them. Also, Darkforce has nothing to do with reality warping so I don´t know why you keep using those feats, they are irrelevant.

Despite previously knowing nothing about magic. There's no type of defense that Tao did not have, yet the creation blades sullied his powers. If it can hurt a guy who had mastered every aspect of creation far beyond the levels of power we're handling, then it can hurt a guy who's got an eldritch sword and talismans that are limited in their capacity.

Even if that was true Mr. Negative doesn´t really have to corrupt the blades, his goal is Nemesis, that´s his expertise, to corrupt people. Also, he doesn´t even have to touch her directly, since she will be corrupted as well if she touches him, and we both know Nemesis doesn´t fights only with the swords, as already presented by one of your own scans, so he can extend the range to get her from distance and bring her to the dark side.

The Quantum Bands don't make you more susceptible to the Darkforce, they just can't manipulate its energy. Like I said, if Negative wants to get in range of Nemesis to try to push his advantage, he risks having the deadliest sword in comics deal with him.

I´ve posted this already but I will post again since this is from Quantum Bands comic vine bio:

  • Extradimensional energy: Quasar is susceptible to all persons using Darkforce. The Q-bands cannot create constructs to hold or resist darkforce energy. The Darkforce penetrates his energy like it wasn't even there. Also entities from the Negative-Zone (such as Annihilus) can corrupt the bands if wearing them.

It´s Nemesis who is in great danger here since her enemy possess the main weakness of her principal item, so she is the one who needs to take care the most.

Holograms cannot confuse anyone on my team thanks to their enhanced senses. All of them have either precognition, crystal glasses, molecular awareness, or Blink's Phoenix Fragment.. The Shadow of Fear has limited range and if you attempt to use it on Nemesis, she will use her reversing mirror. This will turn the Shadow of Fear back on Negative, or inspire my team instead of causing them fear, whichever works for you.

If you really, really want me to counter you making things dark with the Mandarin ring then I will have Zealot, whose job I've made it to keep your more magically oriented Negative in check, cast a "light" spell of with the Staff of One. Happy? I didn't think it a necessary conclusion but I'd rather not leave the dangling issue.

It´s not only for confuse but also distraction. Mr. Negative will use the Shadow of Fear against the sentient Tactigon because when bonded with K.I.A. he revealed that the Tactigon has the ability to feel fear. So he won´t bother waste his time against someone he alreay knows to have some sort of protection against it.

Like said before, casting a "Light" spell will only boost Mr. Negative even more since the Martin Li persona is the oposite of dark, that´s why he is able heal others instead of just corrupt. The combination of both Light and Dark allows him to do it, so you can´t do any harm to him using a lightforce beam or anything like that.

Is that so? You've only had Negative and Bane do stuff so far. Veranke and Omega Red have been noticeably absent from the festivities and it seems we're content to have Gorgon and Blink do things telepathically. Your team will have their hands full dealing with mine, as well, as my team has generally superior speed to your other members thanks to Amazon Armories and/or Talismans on everyone but Blink who has the Fragment and Nemesis who has the Bands for superspeed. Heck, while you listed all the gear Bane has, I think I did a very good job pointing out how nearly everyone on my team has him beat in stats -- if he went one on one with Alita or Nemesis or Zazie, he's well and truly outmatched, as well. I think my speed advantage clearly lets me choose my matchups. You've also made it a prerogative to have Negative try to exploit his darkforce advantage on Nemesis, meaning he has to close in on my team to attack her, bringing him to Zealot, not the other way around.

You have a weapon that disrupts magical energies? I have a weapon that disrupts magical energies! We've been over this before, Zealot can match your Eldritch Sword with hers and counter it moreso with the Staff of One and here greater experience with magic from her history.

I´ve already direct how all my team members will behave in this fight, with Omega Red and Veranke being the ones with less specifications but they still have it, they are not absent. Also, all the Omega Red and Gorgon copies can be further enhanced by Mr. Negative to become his Inner Demons, with boosted endurance and stamina, who are able to regenerate from even the most lethal wounds within a matter of seconds, as they've been shown almost immediately recovering from impalement, gunshots to the head, and even getting torn apart or decapitated.

Also, I don´t see those advantages you´re pointing since Gorgon starts evenly matched with Blink, but with a important advantage that is the Phoenix Sword, also, Bane possess the Speed Force thanks to the Insider Suit:

Speed Force Mode: Inspired by the Flash, the suit gives the wearer limited access to the Speed Force, accelerating their movements beyond human speed.

So, with the Eye of Dashi cover the energy supply limitation, Bane possess unlimited access to the Speed Force, which makes him faster than Alita, Zazie and maybe even Zealot since you can´t really compare Shard of Lighting with Speed Force, that´s why he can multi-task here. Veranke possess the Shard of Lighting as well as weather manipulation which includes wind and lightning so I believe I can say she can boost that item. Mr. Negative possess the combination of rabbit and rooster grants him super flight speed, but even great due to the Soulsword enhancement.

As already explained several times, Mr. Negative doesn´t need to come in close range to use his darkforce manipulation to corrupt your team, since he can use the Dark Ring to obtain the range he needs.

Zealot will be dealing with other threats so she won´t have time to go after Negative, and frankly that would be waste of their time since they can´t really hurt each other so.

Mr. Negative doesn't get more powerful when things are bright outside. There's no reason to think magical illumination makes him stronger.

That´s not going to work, all he needs to do is use the Dark Ring to bring darkness to the entire place and there goes the neighborhood. Also, she can´t prevent this from happen since the ring isn´t magic based, and on top of that, Martin Li can disrupt anything that may come from the Staff of One.

I would like verification that the Nightbringer ring is actually darkforce. I'd also like confirmation that his corrupting touch can increase its range beyond, well, corrupting touch's range because of it.

Just see above since I´ve cleary explained how it works, I will just edit this later to add the scans for more reference.

How? Because you say so? What's to stop Alita from walking all over either Omega or Veranke? She massively outclasses either of them and Nemesis handed her a creation blade. That + the tactigon + her double superspeed from the armory and talismans makes it so that, should one of your two free dudes actually try to pull something, they get handily taken out.

Tell me how Spider-Woman or Omega Red deal with a tactigon shot to the grill or a creation blade through the sternum from someone whose hundreds to thousands of times faster than them, has precognition, and also has a 100 foot high artillery unit in Zazie firing invisible giant bullets at them.

I can concede that Omega Red is the weak link but you´re gonna have to explain to me how exactly you´re gonna take him, since there is 2 other Omega Red and Gorgon working as Inner Demons to cover the team and perimeter using the Sapphire Dragon, and also consider that he possess great innate durability by his own, and the follow:

  • Southern Cross' Cane - grants telekinetic powers
  • Golden Fleece: A golden armlet which Kratos can use to reflect attacks and projectiles back at their sender (both physical and energy attacks)
  • Blades of Exile: A weapon similar to the Blades of Chaos and Athena's Blades from previous games. After the Blades of Athena become dulled when Kratos falls into the River Styx, Athena gives them to Kratos in order to regain his trust. Their magic power calls forth spears and shield of Kratos' exiled Spartan brothers, that protect him and damage his foes.
  • Right thumb: "Matter Rearranger Ring"- this ring can rearrange the shape of solid objects. It can be used on almost anything.
  • Right index finger: "Impact Beam Ring"- this ring can shoot out a force beam with concussive force.
  • Right middle finger: "Vortex Beam Ring"- this ring can create a vortex of air, which can be used offensively, defensively or simply as a means of transport.
  • Right ring finger: "Disintegration Beam Ring"- this ring can destroy all bonds of atoms and molecules of whatever it strikes. Unlike the other rings, it takes 20 minutes to recharge.

As for Veranke, she is using the Amulet of Isis, which grants superhuman strength, able to lift c. 35 tons. Increased longevity and resistence to harm, great mystical skills allowing her to manipulate the elemental forces of the universe. She can raise and protect the spirits of the dead. She has been able to restore fallen Gods to life . However she needed to join forces with other deities to bring back a God of Osiris' level.

She is also using the Shard of Lightining to move at light speeds, and the follow rings:

  • Left little finger: "Ice Blast Ring"- a ring which can shoot out intense cold rays at an enemy, cold enough to freeze that person solid.
  • Left middle finger: "Electro Blast Ring"- this ring can shoot out an unknown amount of electricity.
  • Left index finger: "Flame Blast Ring"- this ring can shoot out flames, in heat form or as infrared radiation.
  • Left thumb: "White Light Ring"- this ring can shoot out lasers, or on one occasion, create gravity strong enough that Iron Man buried himself by trying to walk forwards.

Also take into consideration the webshooters and SPIN tech darts they can use at any time in the middle of the battle.

This is a scan of magic redirecting one bullet. Now show me the scan of her redirecting 10,000 a second. Now show me her redirecting 10,000 invisible bullets a second from someone with much better marksmanship than a mook. Now make all those bullets x20 in size. Then you'll have an argument. Until then, Negative and the rest of your team are getting plastered. One teleport disc does not stop thousand upon thousands of giant bullets.

So no, he can't redirect "all" of that back at me. I'll give you four or five based on that scan. Now account for the other 9,995 a second and how the rest of your team survives. Remember, it looks something like this:

How about this?

So all those bullets means nothing considering that he can use the discs to teleport the bullets back to her with little to no effort.

He can also teleport your team members against each other in the middle of the battle to compromise their performance opening a weak spot for my team to explore and attack.

He can even bring hell to this fight against your team as a unexpected move so they can´t really respond to it properly.

In top of all that, my team possess superior psychic powers since Mr. Negative possess a Mento-Intensifier Ring, that magnifies the wearer's own psionic energy, allowing him to place one or more people under his mental control and to transmit orders to them mentally. So he can be really decisive here in the telepathic battle since Gorgon in possession of the Phoenix Blade will defeat Blink with the help of Mr. Negative.

#46 Edited by Dredeuced (5833 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Looks like we were making our posts at the same time. Here's a quick rebuttal, then, since voting hasn't opened:

Darkforce isn´t part of Mr. Negative´s body, it´s part of his power, which is able to corrupt objects with black electrical energy so what is a talisman if not an object? The 10 talismans will be corrupted with darkforce, then mistically augmented through the SoulSword, so Mr. Negative can explored them in it´s magnitude. So the optical beam comes from inside, and all he has inside is Darkforce, so yes, he can shot a corrupting heat beam to tag your team members from distance.

The Talisman is an object but the eye beams are not. Can Mr. Negative corrupt a laser beam from a gun he's holding? I doubt it. I've only ever seen him spread his power to physical objects.

The ring can create an area of absolute darkness that absorb all light used within it. Although "black light" is a term used to refer to ultraviolet radiation, the darkness created by the ring is probably a form of the "darkforce" used by Cloak, Darkstar, and the Shroud. The gem is shaped like four tiny black-blue dots, arranged in a square shape in groups of two.

Also, Temujin pretty much confirmed that it was darkforce manipulation when he used the Ring to shut down Spot's powers for a chat.

Please understand that it´s actually and officially a Darkforce manipulation device, which can be used to control the abilities of Darkforce powered individuals, and it can also be used for dimension dump, something that has been used all of twice in the artifact's career: once by the Mandarin, and once by Temugin against Spot, as already exaplained.

Like I said, it's one of those purely speculative things. That said, even if it is a Darkforce creator, it doesn't create the same thing Negative does (corruption and such). Darkforce powers interact differently depending on the user. Moreso, I did counter it even if everything you're saying is on the level so my bases should be covered.

Can you show me or prove me that. I can´t see a reason to agree that her magical abilities are amped in the same way of Mr. Negative, since Martin Li doesn´t have innate magical abilities, but darkforce powers, so for him makes sense. I agree she will have more facility to learn how to use the SoulSword but that´s pretty much it, since my characters had 3 months to learn it, he should be fine. Also, she can´t strike Mr. Negative with magic since he possess a sword that disrupts magic, doesn´t matter how many other magical artefacts you may have, the Soulsword will disrupt them. In top of that, there´s a list of used spells that Zealot doesn´t have ways to be aware so if she repeat one of those the Staff won´t work properly.

I believe that I´ve already explained it, but I can do it again. I´ve already proved that Mr. Negative possess great darkforce output, further enhanced by the MGH shot. Most of his items are magic based, the Soulsword enhances magic, so since he can corrupt solid objects, he can merge them with darkforce and than use the Soulsword to amp them greatly enhancing their already great power.

Proof that Zealot's good with magic? Sure:

She did a lot of magic in the early vol 1 wildcats days and, technically, she's been a magician much longer than she hasn't been (Thousands of years before WildCats started). She loses her magic to a soul lobotomy later which is why she didn't break the rules of the tourney.

My main point is Zealot has previous experience with magic that Negative does not, and more magical gear. Given the same amount of practice time, Zealot should be a superior user of her superior gear than Negative. The practice time is one of the relevant things in the tourney. You can't just assume Negative is just as good as her without a reason why.

I´ve already direct how all my team members will behave in this fight, with Omega Red and Veranke being the ones with less specifications but they still have it, they are not absent. Also, all the Omega Red and Gorgon copies can be further enhanced by Mr. Negative to become his Inner Demons, with boosted endurance and stamina, who are able to regenerate from even the most lethal wounds within a matter of seconds, as they've been shown almost immediately recovering from impalement, gunshots to the head, and even getting torn apart or decapitated.

The level to which Negative pumps mooks is irrelevant to my characters. Every single one of them would shred Negative's mook enhancements and they'd be trivial upgrades to either Red or Veranke. I also don't think Red and Veranke would be willing to subjugate themselves to negative for the tourney. Our characters are still in character.

Also, I don´t see those advantages you´re pointing since Gorgon starts evenly matched with Blink, but with a important advantage that is the Phoenix Sword, also, Bane possess the Speed Force thanks to the Insider Suit:

Speed Force Mode: Inspired by the Flash, the suit gives the wearer limited access to the Speed Force, accelerating their movements beyond human speed.

This is incorrect. Esquire has actually pointed this out atleast a dozen times on this forum in Insider Suit threads. It merely simulates speed force users, it doesn't actually access the Speed force.

So, with the Eye of Dashi cover the energy supply limitation, Bane possess unlimited access to the Speed Force, which makes him faster than Alita, Zazie and maybe even Zealot since you can´t really compare Shard of Lighting with Speed Force, that´s why he can multi-task here. Veranke possess the Shard of Lighting as well as weather manipulation which includes wind and lightning so I believe I can say she can boost that item. Mr. Negative possess the combination of rabbit and rooster grants him super flight speed, but even great due to the Soulsword enhancement.

I honestly don't think the Eye of Dashi produces enough energy to sate the Insider Suit nor does it constantly produce energy (all SGW need to be activated) to give it infinite energy.

Doubly so, anyone on my team can turn off your insider suit with an Emperor Scorpion. Relying on a SGW when I've got literally 7 people on my team who disbale SGW (4 Jongs with Jisaku Gloves and 3 Scorpion users) is a huge misplay. The rabbit on Negative still makes him slower than everyone on my team who either match his rabbit + soul sword (zealot) or have superior speed gear (Everyone else).

As already explained several times, Mr. Negative doesn´t need to come in close range to use his darkforce manipulation to corrupt your team, since he can use the Dark Ring to obtain the range he needs.

That's not how it works. Do you think if Negative got tossed into Cloak's cloak he'd have infinite corruption powers? Darkforce powers are channeled differently. I've, once again, already magically countered the dark ring anyhow so this is double bunk.

Zealot will be dealing with other threats so she won´t have time to go after Negative, and frankly that would be waste of their time since they can´t really hurt each other so.

Um, what? Since when do you decide who my characters deal with? Do you think Zealot's gonna be super preoccupied with your no show members like Veranke and Omega Red when Zazie and Alita are there? And Nemesis? This is not an argument. This is you plainly admitting you don't want Zealot interacting with Negative because it's a losing proposition. I specifically pointed out how Zealot is an anti-mage and you expect me to let you get by with her getting tangled up with your non magic users? Hardly!

That´s not going to work, all he needs to do is use the Dark Ring to bring darkness to the entire place and there goes the neighborhood. Also, she can´t prevent this from happen since the ring isn´t magic based, and on top of that, Martin Li can disrupt anything that may come from the Staff of One.

The ring doesn't have to be magic based for magic to be able to counter it. Martin Li can not overpower Zealot's enchanments when she's amped every bit as much as him, if not moreso, and more experienced with magic than he is.

I can concede that Omega Red is the weak link but you´re gonna have to explain to me how exactly you´re gonna take him, since there is 2 other Omega Red and Gorgon working as Inner Demons to cover the team and perimeter using the Sapphire Dragon, and also consider that he possess great innate durability by his own, and the follow:

  • Southern Cross' Cane - grants telekinetic powers
  • Golden Fleece: A golden armlet which Kratos can use to reflect attacks and projectiles back at their sender (both physical and energy attacks)
  • Blades of Exile: A weapon similar to the Blades of Chaos and Athena's Blades from previous games. After the Blades of Athena become dulled when Kratos falls into the River Styx, Athena gives them to Kratos in order to regain his trust. Their magic power calls forth spears and shield of Kratos' exiled Spartan brothers, that protect him and damage his foes.
  • Right thumb: "Matter Rearranger Ring"- this ring can rearrange the shape of solid objects. It can be used on almost anything.
  • Right index finger: "Impact Beam Ring"- this ring can shoot out a force beam with concussive force.
  • Right middle finger: "Vortex Beam Ring"- this ring can create a vortex of air, which can be used offensively, defensively or simply as a means of transport.
  • Right ring finger: "Disintegration Beam Ring"- this ring can destroy all bonds of atoms and molecules of whatever it strikes. Unlike the other rings, it takes 20 minutes to recharge.

As for Veranke, she is using the Amulet of Isis, which grants superhuman strength, able to lift c. 35 tons. Increased longevity and resistence to harm, great mystical skills allowing her to manipulate the elemental forces of the universe. She can raise and protect the spirits of the dead. She has been able to restore fallen Gods to life . However she needed to join forces with other deities to bring back a God of Osiris' level.

She is also using the Shard of Lightining to move at light speeds, and the follow rings:

  • Left little finger: "Ice Blast Ring"- a ring which can shoot out intense cold rays at an enemy, cold enough to freeze that person solid.
  • Left middle finger: "Electro Blast Ring"- this ring can shoot out an unknown amount of electricity.
  • Left index finger: "Flame Blast Ring"- this ring can shoot out flames, in heat form or as infrared radiation.
  • Left thumb: "White Light Ring"- this ring can shoot out lasers, or on one occasion, create gravity strong enough that Iron Man buried himself by trying to walk forwards.

Also take into consideration the webshooters and SPIN tech darts they can use at any time in the middle of the battle.

Having lots of weak links doesn't matter much. The clones attention can be taken up by my Jongs and Sapphire Dragon, frankly. They've all got Kuzusu Atom which should quite easily kill them if your earlier statements about the Atom mean much. Listing gear isn't a strategy.

Veranke's 35 tons is, well, not impressive. I already pointed out the massive strength differences when you were talking about bane having 100ton + strength.

SPIN has no effect on anyone on my team. I've got 6 shards of lightning (each Jong has one). Webshooters are hardly relevant. 3 of my members have phasing powers(alita zazie zealot), and the two who don't have massive energy projection(Blink Nemesis). It is a complete non factor.

How about this?

How about what? Do you seriously not get what I'm saying? 10,000 a second. And they'r all the size of your fist. And they're invisible. And they're coming from above you because she's super tall. No, this does not cut it and no, it does nothing to defend your other 4 members. Do I need to repost exactly what I said before? I'd rather not. There's a major diference between teleporting 10 people and about 20 bullets to teleporting 10,000 of them. Not to mention that Magik's feats and the Eldritch Sword feats are not interchangeable -- the Sword only accounts for 3/5s of Magik's powers and Li is obviously not as good with the powers as Magik is.

I'd also like to say, if Li is defending himself from the bullet storm, how is he executing your darkforce strategy? Can't do two things at once.

He can also teleport your team members against each other in the middle of the battle to compromise their performance opening a weak spot for my team to explore and attack.

He can even bring hell to this fight against your team as a unexpected move so they can´t really respond to it properly.

Dude, Zealot's got the exact same thing. This is irrelevant.

The teleporting even moreso considering I've got the best street level teleporting in the game with AoA Blink on my side. You are not out teleporting me.

In top of all that, my team possess superior psychic powers since Mr. Negative possess a Mento-Intensifier Ring, that magnifies the wearer's own psionic energy, allowing him to place one or more people under his mental control and to transmit orders to them mentally. So he can be really decisive here in the telepathic battle since Gorgon in possession of the Phoenix Blade will defeat Blink with the help of Mr. Negative.

5 T Masks. Automatically stop people from brain jacking you, especially tech. Feats:

Kind of like with the Battle Computer. T-Masks kind of make a lot of gear irrelevant.

Heck, later on, Brainstorm was controlling an entire city and Terrific was completely unaffected once he actually put his mask on. I'd say city wide mind control trumps the Mento Intensifier greatly.

#47 Posted by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio
#48 Posted by Dredeuced (5833 posts) - - Show Bio
#49 Edited by HigorM (4227 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill:

Crap, I didn´t get the chance to reply the last two posts..

Anyway, nice debate @dredeuced

#50 Edited by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

Not getting along very well? Play nice you two! Anyhow, @dredeuced gets my vote. I agree with most of his many counters and arguments.

Sincerely,