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#51 Posted by Dredeuced (5717 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium:

Can we agree that Spock can at least do what Kubik did?

Maybe? It depends on which Kubik feat you want to use.

It's been a really long time since Necrosha too, and there aren't enough scans out there for me to be satisfied either. I remember Selene being like 'more souls' and then that scan of a ton of people increasing Genosha's population -it is hypothetically possible that Blink just teleported to them and then back, though. Hmm...I'll try to dig up the scans.


Fair enough, I'll leave you to it. Try not to forget the other obstacles in the way of the strategy beyond line of sight, though.

I need to read the new 52. So does the cold field not work at all on anyone going light speed? That seems off, since according to @diredrill it's put in to counter the shard of lightning and amazo's light-speed capabilities.

Reality warp! Cold field at the edge of the bubble. I'm sure it slows them down; the logic of it slowing down molecules and reducing speed is...pretty good.

The Cold Gun has only been used by Barry Allen in New 52, and he was using it while powerless (Flash #19). Cold's gun has also never stopped Wally when Wally was giving it a real effort in Pre-52, as I showed. If that was Diredrill's intended counter to anyone who could pull light speed maneuvers then he made a mistake.

But hey, let's assume that WAS what Diredrill intended. I'll go along with the Cold Field preventing my team from blitzing one of your members (presumably Doc Ock). I don't like setting my plan when it can be overturned by a ruling, so I'll assume the it's ruled against me to make my argument a little more sturdy. Blink, during the Shard of Lightning duration, uses her teleportation powers to teleport a creation blade into Doc Ock's body. This will remove his reality warping powers (as it did to Tao when he had the power of 3 reality warpers) and, well, probably kill him. There, Cold Field circumvented. My team DOES have the Crystal Glasses and a telepathy link, so this wouldn't be hard to know of or execute.

Blink's actually pretty much never been hit in New Mutants as I can remember though I've only read 6 issues. Her only weakness is that she's useless unless someone fires at her -which nobody does because they're not dumb and mainly recurring villains.

She's been hit in other comics, though. It's not like she's a new character. AoA blink has redirected Hyperion's laser vision (which is definitively light speed) and I would never claim that she has light speed reactions.

This has been mostly done to death -I have the same power WITHIN THE RADIUS. You have never refuted the logic of the Super Adaptoid vs Kubik fight and you will never be able to. It proves that my Cosmic Ring is equal to Kubik, and the Mephisto scan proves Kubik and all other cosmic cube beings (reece and the beyonder are really weird and IDK about them) are equal in power.

I'm not refuting the logic of what happened in the Kubik fight, I'm refuting your statements that you have extrapolated from that showing. I've refuted the premise that you, with the cosmic ring, can recreate any feat from any person who has ever had a Cosmic Cube because you started scan dumping a bunch of cosmic cube feats to show things that you could do. Many of which were not true because those feats were not limited to 15 feet.

Reece and Beyonder are just examples that cosmic cube beings and cosmic cube users are not all equal. Reed with a Cosmic Cube does not have the same feats as Thanos with a Cosmic Cube, for instance. And neither were limited to feats that could be contained within 15 feet.

Might I remind you, when Kubik had his limits off he reality-warped away an entire UNIVERSE?

Oh, did Kubik have his limits off for the Super Adaptoid fight? I'm sure your guy can warp away the universe...well, atleast 15 radial feet of one.

For all intents and purposes this is a standard Cosmic Cube, so I can use Reed's feat of taking away the Power Cosmic.


Sure, whatever, I'm tired of arguing it. You can take away the power cosmic of someone within 15 feet of you.

You didn't answer the Phoenix Fragment vs Magus extrapolation.


It's not an extrapolation because Magus' cosmic cubes were not limited to 15 feet. That's why it's not directly applicable to this situation. That's why you stating "Well Cosmic Cube > Phoenix Fragment" matters because it's not taking into account the context of our fight. It's binary logic with little to no critical thinking of the actual application of our gear. That's why I said just comparing our high tier artifacts to determine who's better is farcical.

For all intents and purposes, I am omnipotent within my 15 foot by 15 foot bubble -I


No you are not. If you were, then you could grant your character omniscience. If you were, you could create infinity gauntlets and distribute them to your team. Reality warping is not synonymous with omnipotent. There's a clear distinction that you have ignored despite me bringing it up several times. Reality warpers have, many times over, been defeated by lesser powers and ingenuity, and many of them didn't have a 15 foot limiter on their powers.

I have chosen the best possible user of the Cosmic Ring so that I have 200 copies of Thor with me

I can't remember if you responded to me when I brought it up and I don't feel like going through our entire argument again -- did you ever respond to the fact that I pointed out that current Superior Spider-man does NOT have Peter Parker's memories anymore?

That said, I've addressed the Thor Clones a multitude of times and have said I'll leave the judgement of that situation up to the voters.

chosen Kenji Uedo to make everyone immune to telepathy

A strategy I have acknowledged and moved away from. Are you just listing things to make your post longer at this point?

chosen a teleporter to teleport a team into my bubble if they are unwilling,


I have addressed this so many times I've lost count. Just bringing up stuff you've said before that I have countered isn't a new argument. Blink can't teleport my team at will into your bubble.

And I don't believe the Shard of Lightning applies to thrown objects, so those Creation Blades are out.

Why would I have to throw my creation blades? I mean I just assumed my team could gut your dude during the Shard of Lightning but you brought up the cold field, we had a little rapport about it, and I have since worked around it.

Shard of Lightning allows you to still use your gear. Jack can even communicate with the other person in its duration -- use a hammer and nail to pin someone to the ground.

#52 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium:

Can we agree that Spock can at least do what Kubik did?

Maybe? It depends on which Kubik feat you want to use.

I'm looking. Some of Super Adaptoid's feats seem out of the window (such as copying the nega-bands which as you said defeats the point of the tourney), and most of Kubik's feats are against other beings. The 'sub-particle resonance disruptor effect', though not actually real, would probably be something that split apart quarks. As for speed, actually, I can't believe I didn't realize that Kubik was waaaay above light speed, traveling galaxies in a second.

So Spock can buzz around in his little sphere quite a lot. And probably do super-blasts that would take your team out.

It's been a really long time since Necrosha too, and there aren't enough scans out there for me to be satisfied either. I remember Selene being like 'more souls' and then that scan of a ton of people increasing Genosha's population -it is hypothetically possible that Blink just teleported to them and then back, though. Hmm...I'll try to dig up the scans.

Fair enough, I'll leave you to it. Try not to forget the other obstacles in the way of the strategy beyond line of sight, though.

I gave up, I can't find any scans of Necrosha for the life of me that confirm without a doubt that Blink did this. Of course, in issue 1 of Age of Apocalypse there's that Mutant Cheesecake scan I posted (actually yours, by the way, i looked up agent cheesecake and found someone who was only in 616 so I assumed it was mine) that shows that probably both Blinks can do it.

I need to read the new 52. So does the cold field not work at all on anyone going light speed? That seems off, since according to @diredrill it's put in to counter the shard of lightning and amazo's light-speed capabilities.

Reality warp! Cold field at the edge of the bubble. I'm sure it slows them down; the logic of it slowing down molecules and reducing speed is...pretty good.

The Cold Gun has only been used by Barry Allen in New 52, and he was using it while powerless (Flash #19). Cold's gun has also never stopped Wally when Wally was giving it a real effort in Pre-52, as I showed. If that was Diredrill's intended counter to anyone who could pull light speed maneuvers then he made a mistake.

But hey, let's assume that WAS what Diredrill intended. I'll go along with the Cold Field preventing my team from blitzing one of your members (presumably Doc Ock). I don't like setting my plan when it can be overturned by a ruling, so I'll assume the it's ruled against me to make my argument a little more sturdy. Blink, during the Shard of Lightning duration, uses her teleportation powers to teleport a creation blade into Doc Ock's body. This will remove his reality warping powers (as it did to Tao when he had the power of 3 reality warpers) and, well, probably kill him. There, Cold Field circumvented. My team DOES have the Crystal Glasses and a telepathy link, so this wouldn't be hard to know of or execute.

*blink(lol)s* Hm, okay. So the cold field stops your super-speed...does that mean my Ragnaroks can go ham on you now.

As for the creation blades -Freedom Ring and Ringmaster stopped bullets from coming into the field, so can Spock? I think? Of course firing a bullet isn't the same as teleporting something directly into someone's brain, but @diredrill also made the point that you can't use equipment from another character when I told him about my hilarious plan to loot-kill with the Saint of Killers' gun. Though assuming you can, I'd think a simple anti-teleport barrier could be put up around my team (not like we haven't assumed it's there for a while).

Blink's actually pretty much never been hit in New Mutants as I can remember though I've only read 6 issues. Her only weakness is that she's useless unless someone fires at her -which nobody does because they're not dumb and mainly recurring villains.

She's been hit in other comics, though. It's not like she's a new character. AoA blink has redirected Hyperion's laser vision (which is definitively light speed) and I would never claim that she has light speed reactions.

She's received a power-up in New Mutants, though, so that's the latest version and the one I'm going by. Pretty sure Exiles Blink lost her memory at one point and got hit, but you're not using that instance. Though, curious, why wouldn't you say she has light-speed reactions? (I use AoA blink a lot too)

This has been mostly done to death -I have the same power WITHIN THE RADIUS. You have never refuted the logic of the Super Adaptoid vs Kubik fight and you will never be able to. It proves that my Cosmic Ring is equal to Kubik, and the Mephisto scan proves Kubik and all other cosmic cube beings (reece and the beyonder are really weird and IDK about them) are equal in power.

I'm not refuting the logic of what happened in the Kubik fight, I'm refuting your statements that you have extrapolated from that showing. I've refuted the premise that you, with the cosmic ring, can recreate any feat from any person who has ever had a Cosmic Cube because you started scan dumping a bunch of cosmic cube feats to show things that you could do. Many of which were not true because those feats were not limited to 15 feet.

Reece and Beyonder are just examples that cosmic cube beings and cosmic cube users are not all equal. Reed with a Cosmic Cube does not have the same feats as Thanos with a Cosmic Cube, for instance. And neither were limited to feats that could be contained within 15 feet.

Reece and Beyonder notwithstanding, the cosmic cube beings seem to be equal in power. Reed and Thanos don't have the same feats because they weren't the same people and didn't use it for the same purposes.

Might I remind you, when Kubik had his limits off he reality-warped away an entire UNIVERSE?

Oh, did Kubik have his limits off for the Super Adaptoid fight? I'm sure your guy can warp away the universe...well, atleast 15 radial feet of one.

Well it wasn't really so much of a fight as it was 'Super Adaptoid uses Cosmic Ring'. And later it was just 'Kubik attacks'. Alright, so if he can warp away the universe, what's stopping him from just warping away everything but him, thus leaving him, y'know, the winner?

For all intents and purposes this is a standard Cosmic Cube, so I can use Reed's feat of taking away the Power Cosmic.

Sure, whatever, I'm tired of arguing it. You can take away the power cosmic of someone within 15 feet of you.

You didn't answer the Phoenix Fragment vs Magus extrapolation.

It's not an extrapolation because Magus' cosmic cubes were not limited to 15 feet. That's why it's not directly applicable to this situation. That's why you stating "Well Cosmic Cube > Phoenix Fragment" matters because it's not taking into account the context of our fight. It's binary logic with little to no critical thinking of the actual application of our gear. That's why I said just comparing our high tier artifacts to determine who's better is farcical.

Okay, since Blink is in the radius of the cosmic cube in order to initiate her attack, it DOES matter.

For all intents and purposes, I am omnipotent within my 15 foot by 15 foot bubble -I

No you are not. If you were, then you could grant your character omniscience. If you were, you could create infinity gauntlets and distribute them to your team. Reality warping is not synonymous with omnipotent. There's a clear distinction that you have ignored despite me bringing it up several times. Reality warpers have, many times over, been defeated by lesser powers and ingenuity, and many of them didn't have a 15 foot limiter on their powers.

Ah, I appear to have looked over this. Kubik removed a UNIVERSE-Spock can literally just remove your team.

I have chosen the best possible user of the Cosmic Ring so that I have 200 copies of Thor with me

I can't remember if you responded to me when I brought it up and I don't feel like going through our entire argument again -- did you ever respond to the fact that I pointed out that current Superior Spider-man does NOT have Peter Parker's memories anymore?

Yes. It's an ongoing character struggle and a month is enough to bring back Parker's ghost and take it away again -it's likely to be the focus of the series and multiple interviews hint at Parker coming back, this time not in corporeal form. Somehow. If it was a month from when the battle started, Spock'd still have those memories if I'm thinking correctly.

That said, I've addressed the Thor Clones a multitude of times and have said I'll leave the judgement of that situation up to the voters.

As am I. Our voters are pretty good.

chosen Kenji Uedo to make everyone immune to telepathy

A strategy I have acknowledged and moved away from. Are you just listing things to make your post longer at this point?

chosen a teleporter to teleport a team into my bubble if they are unwilling,

I have addressed this so many times I've lost count. Just bringing up stuff you've said before that I have countered isn't a new argument. Blink can't teleport my team at will into your bubble.

Actually I was addressing your little snipe on my inability to put a team together.

And I don't believe the Shard of Lightning applies to thrown objects, so those Creation Blades are out.

Why would I have to throw my creation blades? I mean I just assumed my team could gut your dude during the Shard of Lightning but you brought up the cold field, we had a little rapport about it, and I have since worked around it.

Shard of Lightning allows you to still use your gear. Jack can even communicate with the other person in its duration -- use a hammer and nail to pin someone to the ground.

Didn't you say 'throw creation blades'?

#53 Posted by LeeSensei (385 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

@thedarklordpandamonium:

Can we agree that Spock can at least do what Kubik did?

Maybe? It depends on which Kubik feat you want to use.

I'm looking. Some of Super Adaptoid's feats seem out of the window (such as copying the nega-bands which as you said defeats the point of the tourney), and most of Kubik's feats are against other beings. The 'sub-particle resonance disruptor effect', though not actually real, would probably be something that split apart quarks. As for speed, actually, I can't believe I didn't realize that Kubik was waaaay above light speed, traveling galaxies in a second.

So Spock can buzz around in his little sphere quite a lot. And probably do super-blasts that would take your team out.

It's been a really long time since Necrosha too, and there aren't enough scans out there for me to be satisfied either. I remember Selene being like 'more souls' and then that scan of a ton of people increasing Genosha's population -it is hypothetically possible that Blink just teleported to them and then back, though. Hmm...I'll try to dig up the scans.

Fair enough, I'll leave you to it. Try not to forget the other obstacles in the way of the strategy beyond line of sight, though.

I gave up, I can't find any scans of Necrosha for the life of me that confirm without a doubt that Blink did this. Of course, in issue 1 of Age of Apocalypse there's that Mutant Cheesecake scan I posted (actually yours, by the way, i looked up agent cheesecake and found someone who was only in 616 so I assumed it was mine) that shows that probably both Blinks can do it.

I need to read the new 52. So does the cold field not work at all on anyone going light speed? That seems off, since according to @diredrill it's put in to counter the shard of lightning and amazo's light-speed capabilities.

Reality warp! Cold field at the edge of the bubble. I'm sure it slows them down; the logic of it slowing down molecules and reducing speed is...pretty good.

The Cold Gun has only been used by Barry Allen in New 52, and he was using it while powerless (Flash #19). Cold's gun has also never stopped Wally when Wally was giving it a real effort in Pre-52, as I showed. If that was Diredrill's intended counter to anyone who could pull light speed maneuvers then he made a mistake.

But hey, let's assume that WAS what Diredrill intended. I'll go along with the Cold Field preventing my team from blitzing one of your members (presumably Doc Ock). I don't like setting my plan when it can be overturned by a ruling, so I'll assume the it's ruled against me to make my argument a little more sturdy. Blink, during the Shard of Lightning duration, uses her teleportation powers to teleport a creation blade into Doc Ock's body. This will remove his reality warping powers (as it did to Tao when he had the power of 3 reality warpers) and, well, probably kill him. There, Cold Field circumvented. My team DOES have the Crystal Glasses and a telepathy link, so this wouldn't be hard to know of or execute.

*blink(lol)s* Hm, okay. So the cold field stops your super-speed...does that mean my Ragnaroks can go ham on you now.

As for the creation blades -Freedom Ring and Ringmaster stopped bullets from coming into the field, so can Spock? I think? Of course firing a bullet isn't the same as teleporting something directly into someone's brain, but @diredrill also made the point that you can't use equipment from another character when I told him about my hilarious plan to loot-kill with the Saint of Killers' gun. Though assuming you can, I'd think a simple anti-teleport barrier could be put up around my team (not like we haven't assumed it's there for a while).

Blink's actually pretty much never been hit in New Mutants as I can remember though I've only read 6 issues. Her only weakness is that she's useless unless someone fires at her -which nobody does because they're not dumb and mainly recurring villains.

She's been hit in other comics, though. It's not like she's a new character. AoA blink has redirected Hyperion's laser vision (which is definitively light speed) and I would never claim that she has light speed reactions.

She's received a power-up in New Mutants, though, so that's the latest version and the one I'm going by. Pretty sure Exiles Blink lost her memory at one point and got hit, but you're not using that instance. Though, curious, why wouldn't you say she has light-speed reactions? (I use AoA blink a lot too)

This has been mostly done to death -I have the same power WITHIN THE RADIUS. You have never refuted the logic of the Super Adaptoid vs Kubik fight and you will never be able to. It proves that my Cosmic Ring is equal to Kubik, and the Mephisto scan proves Kubik and all other cosmic cube beings (reece and the beyonder are really weird and IDK about them) are equal in power.

I'm not refuting the logic of what happened in the Kubik fight, I'm refuting your statements that you have extrapolated from that showing. I've refuted the premise that you, with the cosmic ring, can recreate any feat from any person who has ever had a Cosmic Cube because you started scan dumping a bunch of cosmic cube feats to show things that you could do. Many of which were not true because those feats were not limited to 15 feet.

Reece and Beyonder are just examples that cosmic cube beings and cosmic cube users are not all equal. Reed with a Cosmic Cube does not have the same feats as Thanos with a Cosmic Cube, for instance. And neither were limited to feats that could be contained within 15 feet.

Reece and Beyonder notwithstanding, the cosmic cube beings seem to be equal in power. Reed and Thanos don't have the same feats because they weren't the same people and didn't use it for the same purposes.

Might I remind you, when Kubik had his limits off he reality-warped away an entire UNIVERSE?

Oh, did Kubik have his limits off for the Super Adaptoid fight? I'm sure your guy can warp away the universe...well, atleast 15 radial feet of one.

Well it wasn't really so much of a fight as it was 'Super Adaptoid uses Cosmic Ring'. And later it was just 'Kubik attacks'. Alright, so if he can warp away the universe, what's stopping him from just warping away everything but him, thus leaving him, y'know, the winner?

For all intents and purposes this is a standard Cosmic Cube, so I can use Reed's feat of taking away the Power Cosmic.

Sure, whatever, I'm tired of arguing it. You can take away the power cosmic of someone within 15 feet of you.

You didn't answer the Phoenix Fragment vs Magus extrapolation.

It's not an extrapolation because Magus' cosmic cubes were not limited to 15 feet. That's why it's not directly applicable to this situation. That's why you stating "Well Cosmic Cube > Phoenix Fragment" matters because it's not taking into account the context of our fight. It's binary logic with little to no critical thinking of the actual application of our gear. That's why I said just comparing our high tier artifacts to determine who's better is farcical.

Okay, since Blink is in the radius of the cosmic cube in order to initiate her attack, it DOES matter.

For all intents and purposes, I am omnipotent within my 15 foot by 15 foot bubble -I

No you are not. If you were, then you could grant your character omniscience. If you were, you could create infinity gauntlets and distribute them to your team. Reality warping is not synonymous with omnipotent. There's a clear distinction that you have ignored despite me bringing it up several times. Reality warpers have, many times over, been defeated by lesser powers and ingenuity, and many of them didn't have a 15 foot limiter on their powers.

Ah, I appear to have looked over this. Kubik removed a UNIVERSE-Spock can literally just remove your team.

I have chosen the best possible user of the Cosmic Ring so that I have 200 copies of Thor with me

I can't remember if you responded to me when I brought it up and I don't feel like going through our entire argument again -- did you ever respond to the fact that I pointed out that current Superior Spider-man does NOT have Peter Parker's memories anymore?

Yes. It's an ongoing character struggle and a month is enough to bring back Parker's ghost and take it away again -it's likely to be the focus of the series and multiple interviews hint at Parker coming back, this time not in corporeal form. Somehow. If it was a month from when the battle started, Spock'd still have those memories if I'm thinking correctly.

That said, I've addressed the Thor Clones a multitude of times and have said I'll leave the judgement of that situation up to the voters.

As am I. Our voters are pretty good.

chosen Kenji Uedo to make everyone immune to telepathy

A strategy I have acknowledged and moved away from. Are you just listing things to make your post longer at this point?

chosen a teleporter to teleport a team into my bubble if they are unwilling,

I have addressed this so many times I've lost count. Just bringing up stuff you've said before that I have countered isn't a new argument. Blink can't teleport my team at will into your bubble.

Actually I was addressing your little snipe on my inability to put a team together.

And I don't believe the Shard of Lightning applies to thrown objects, so those Creation Blades are out.

Why would I have to throw my creation blades? I mean I just assumed my team could gut your dude during the Shard of Lightning but you brought up the cold field, we had a little rapport about it, and I have since worked around it.

Shard of Lightning allows you to still use your gear. Jack can even communicate with the other person in its duration -- use a hammer and nail to pin someone to the ground.

Didn't you say 'throw creation blades'?

1. Thor is above FTL.

2. Hercules is Hypersonic (reactions).

#54 Posted by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Absolute Zero slows down light. Light travels at Light Speed so thus anything traveling at Light Speed would be slowed down when attempting to traverse his field. Snart, a surprisingly moral villain, often holds back which is why some of his feats are less than impressive.

#55 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@leesensei: D'aw. I love ya, kid, but you can't vote here.

@diredrill @dredeuced: Yep, the Cold Gun is basically a ruling weapon. Though I'm sure you can show me without a doubt that it wouldn't be able to create a field that slows down anything going at light speed, it's a ruling weapon. Thus Absolute Zero would slow light speed as well.

#56 Edited by Dredeuced (5717 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill said:

@dredeuced: Absolute Zero slows down light. Light travels at Light Speed so thus anything traveling at Light Speed would be slowed down when attempting to traverse his field. Snart, a surprisingly moral villain, often holds back which is why some of his feats are less than impressive.

Howso? I mean, freezing things causes their density to increase which would slow the speed of light, but Cold has always said that Absolute Zero prevents molecular movement. Light isn't molecular movement.

Snart does not tend to hold back against the Flashes. He went at Barry bloodlusted because he blamed Flash for his Sister's death, and Barry, while limited to well below light speed, still beat him.

@thedarklordpandamonium said:

I'm looking. Some of Super Adaptoid's feats seem out of the window (such as copying the nega-bands which as you said defeats the point of the tourney), and most of Kubik's feats are against other beings. The 'sub-particle resonance disruptor effect', though not actually real, would probably be something that split apart quarks. As for speed, actually, I can't believe I didn't realize that Kubik was waaaay above light speed, traveling galaxies in a second.

So Spock can buzz around in his little sphere quite a lot. And probably do super-blasts that would take your team out.

One day, you will learn that travel speed is not combat speed. It is not reaction speed. It is not operational speed in any such sense.

I gave up, I can't find any scans of Necrosha for the life of me that confirm without a doubt that Blink did this. Of course, in issue 1 of Age of Apocalypse there's that Mutant Cheesecake scan I posted (actually yours, by the way, i looked up agent cheesecake and found someone who was only in 616 so I assumed it was mine) that shows that probably both Blinks can do it.

I've read a lot of Exiles and I can't remember a time where Blink teleported someone she couldn't see or wasn't in close proximity to. At range she's always had to use her teledaggers.

*blink(lol)s* Hm, okay. So the cold field stops your super-speed...does that mean my Ragnaroks can go ham on you now.

Only if my characters enter the field, which is limited to a few feet. Thankfully, my team has two forms of precognition and a Telepathic link to share information. Hell, Alita would be able to sense your cold field even if we didn't have knowledge of it on hand, as her Chi gives her awareness on the molecular level:

15 meters, too, well out of the range of your cold field. Unless you can project your cold field over the entire arena (Something Snart's never done) then no, my team won't be slowed down.

As for the creation blades -Freedom Ring and Ringmaster stopped bullets from coming into the field, so can Spock? I think? Of course firing a bullet isn't the same as teleporting something directly into someone's brain, but @diredrill also made the point that you can't use equipment from another character when I told him about my hilarious plan to loot-kill with the Saint of Killers' gun. Though assuming you can, I'd think a simple anti-teleport barrier could be put up around my team (not like we haven't assumed it's there for a while).

The creation blades aren't someone else's equipment. They're Nemesis' equipment. Why wouldn't Blink be able to teleport them? It's not like Nemesis wouldn't let my team kill a reality warper by borrowing one of her two blades.

Why would you have an anti teleportation field for Blink's powers when you have specifically stated your team's goal is to teleport my team into your ring's range? Isn't that a bit contradictory? I mean, you can't even say it's different kinds of teleportation considering they have the exact same power, AoA Blink's just more experienced with better feats.

She's received a power-up in New Mutants, though, so that's the latest version and the one I'm going by. Pretty sure Exiles Blink lost her memory at one point and got hit, but you're not using that instance. Though, curious, why wouldn't you say she has light-speed reactions? (I use AoA blink a lot too)

Because if they had light speed reactions then the entire world would be frozen in time to them. They just pre-empt the attacks. They'd literally be untaggable by practically anyone below herald level in the marvel universe if they had lightspeed reactions -- which obviously isn't the case.

Reece and Beyonder notwithstanding, the cosmic cube beings seem to be equal in power. Reed and Thanos don't have the same feats because they weren't the same people and didn't use it for the same purposes.

I think it's just a case of Marvel's cosmic artifact inconsistency. Cosmic Cubes, Infinity Gems, Starbrands, all other mess of stuff that has inconsistent showings and feats.

Well it wasn't really so much of a fight as it was 'Super Adaptoid uses Cosmic Ring'. And later it was just 'Kubik attacks'. Alright, so if he can warp away the universe, what's stopping him from just warping away everything but him, thus leaving him, y'know, the winner?

The 15 foot radius and a swords that kill reality warpers and distorts their abilities. If you actually think you can warp away the entire universe with the cosmic ring then I think you bought it for the wrong purposes.

Okay, since Blink is in the radius of the cosmic cube in order to initiate her attack, it DOES matter.

Why do you make this assumption? Blink doesn't have to be within the Ring's radius to teleport the creation blade into him. I've made it quite clear that my team stays clear of your ring's radius, which should be quite easy thanks to their super speed and precognition.

Ah, I appear to have looked over this. Kubik removed a UNIVERSE-Spock can literally just remove your team.

Is this how you expect to win the tournament? Walk into every thread, point out you have the 8 point Cosmic Ring and state "Spider-man warps the universe and everything in it but himself to nothing because Kubik did, and my ABC logic of the Kubik Adaptoid fight says he can, I win!"

I'm telling you right now, that isn't gonna fly here and it isn't gonna fly anywhere else. You're way overshooting what the Cosmic Ring can do.

Yes. It's an ongoing character struggle and a month is enough to bring back Parker's ghost and take it away again -it's likely to be the focus of the series and multiple interviews hint at Parker coming back, this time not in corporeal form. Somehow. If it was a month from when the battle started, Spock'd still have those memories if I'm thinking correctly.

As of now, the only thing in 616 with Peter's memories is the little golden octobug. Spock made a great effort to remove every trace of Parker's mind from his own because it kept thwarting him.

Didn't you say 'throw creation blades'?

I did say she'd shoot them into Spock, though that's probably a poor choice of words. I didn't even know you had a cold field at the time because you hadn't brought it up. Forgive me for my mistake, though my characters are not privy to my faults thanks to the precognition and full knowledge. I did later amend it to teleporting because I pre-empted Diredrill's ruling, because I don't like having my strategy foiled by judgement scenarios, so I pulled a maneuver that would not be subject to Diredrill's rulings on gear.

#57 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

@diredrill said:

@dredeuced: Absolute Zero slows down light. Light travels at Light Speed so thus anything traveling at Light Speed would be slowed down when attempting to traverse his field. Snart, a surprisingly moral villain, often holds back which is why some of his feats are less than impressive.

Howso? I mean, freezing things causes their density to increase which would slow the speed of light, but Cold has always said that Absolute Zero prevents molecular movement. Light isn't molecular movement.

Snart does not tend to hold back against the Flashes. He went at Barry bloodlusted because he blamed Flash for his Sister's death, and Barry, while limited to well below light speed, still beat him.

@thedarklordpandamonium said:

I'm looking. Some of Super Adaptoid's feats seem out of the window (such as copying the nega-bands which as you said defeats the point of the tourney), and most of Kubik's feats are against other beings. The 'sub-particle resonance disruptor effect', though not actually real, would probably be something that split apart quarks. As for speed, actually, I can't believe I didn't realize that Kubik was waaaay above light speed, traveling galaxies in a second.

So Spock can buzz around in his little sphere quite a lot. And probably do super-blasts that would take your team out.

One day, you will learn that travel speed is not combat speed. It is not reaction speed. It is not operational speed in any such sense.

Er-hm. Kay. Do the words 'light speed tackle' mean much to you? Considering the Ragnaroks can see you, they can just light-speed-tackle you, ramming into you.

I gave up, I can't find any scans of Necrosha for the life of me that confirm without a doubt that Blink did this. Of course, in issue 1 of Age of Apocalypse there's that Mutant Cheesecake scan I posted (actually yours, by the way, i looked up agent cheesecake and found someone who was only in 616 so I assumed it was mine) that shows that probably both Blinks can do it.

I've read a lot of Exiles and I can't remember a time where Blink teleported someone she couldn't see or wasn't in close proximity to. At range she's always had to use her teledaggers.

Not Exiles, the Astonishing X-Men from Age of Apocalypse, Issue #1. If you have it, that'd be great.

*blink(lol)s* Hm, okay. So the cold field stops your super-speed...does that mean my Ragnaroks can go ham on you now.

Only if my characters enter the field, which is limited to a few feet. Thankfully, my team has two forms of precognition and a Telepathic link to share information. Hell, Alita would be able to sense your cold field even if we didn't have knowledge of it on hand, as her Chi gives her awareness on the molecular level:

15 meters, too, well out of the range of your cold field. Unless you can project your cold field over the entire arena (Something Snart's never done) then no, my team won't be slowed down.

You realize your team will have to attack me, right? And Spock's projecting that field over the entire 15 meters.

As for the creation blades -Freedom Ring and Ringmaster stopped bullets from coming into the field, so can Spock? I think? Of course firing a bullet isn't the same as teleporting something directly into someone's brain, but @diredrill also made the point that you can't use equipment from another character when I told him about my hilarious plan to loot-kill with the Saint of Killers' gun. Though assuming you can, I'd think a simple anti-teleport barrier could be put up around my team (not like we haven't assumed it's there for a while).

The creation blades aren't someone else's equipment. They're Nemesis' equipment. Why wouldn't Blink be able to teleport them? It's not like Nemesis wouldn't let my team kill a reality warper by borrowing one of her two blades.

Ah, thought it was bought equipment. Point taken.

Why would you have an anti teleportation field for Blink's powers when you have specifically stated your team's goal is to teleport my team into your ring's range? Isn't that a bit contradictory? I mean, you can't even say it's different kinds of teleportation considering they have the exact same power, AoA Blink's just more experienced with better feats.

An anti-teleportation barrier OUTSIDE of the cold field. (well inside.)

Map:

I actually was originally going to say it was different kinds of teleportation based on 616 Blink being able to teleport people without looking at them based off of Necrosha, but as Astonishing X-Men #1 from Age of Apocalypse and the scan I posted of Mutant Cheesecake shows, Blink has the same powers. Luckily my team would know this instead of me just figuring out, and the strategy geniuses that Spock and Kenji are would probably be like 'y'know, we're kind of impenetrable within our field...why don't we just put up an anti-teleport field all the way up until the cold field we're going to put up? that'll work.'

So I'm expecting you to counter this with your crystal glasses.

She's received a power-up in New Mutants, though, so that's the latest version and the one I'm going by. Pretty sure Exiles Blink lost her memory at one point and got hit, but you're not using that instance. Though, curious, why wouldn't you say she has light-speed reactions? (I use AoA blink a lot too)

Because if they had light speed reactions then the entire world would be frozen in time to them. They just pre-empt the attacks. They'd literally be untaggable by practically anyone below herald level in the marvel universe if they had lightspeed reactions -- which obviously isn't the case.

You realize even the Flash and Superman get tagged sometimes, right? It's called 'low showings' -every story with Flash or Supes in it would be boring if the writers didn't slow them down. Same with Zoom.

Reece and Beyonder notwithstanding, the cosmic cube beings seem to be equal in power. Reed and Thanos don't have the same feats because they weren't the same people and didn't use it for the same purposes.

I think it's just a case of Marvel's cosmic artifact inconsistency. Cosmic Cubes, Infinity Gems, Starbrands, all other mess of stuff that has inconsistent showings and feats.

Well, no. I mean, they both did exactly what they put their mind to, Reed just wasn't really interested in taking over the universe.

Well it wasn't really so much of a fight as it was 'Super Adaptoid uses Cosmic Ring'. And later it was just 'Kubik attacks'. Alright, so if he can warp away the universe, what's stopping him from just warping away everything but him, thus leaving him, y'know, the winner?

The 15 foot radius and a swords that kill reality warpers and distorts their abilities. If you actually think you can warp away the entire universe with the cosmic ring then I think you bought it for the wrong purposes.

Okay, since Blink is in the radius of the cosmic cube in order to initiate her attack, it DOES matter.

Why do you make this assumption? Blink doesn't have to be within the Ring's radius to teleport the creation blade into him. I've made it quite clear that my team stays clear of your ring's radius, which should be quite easy thanks to their super speed and precognition.

Ah, I appear to have looked over this. Kubik removed a UNIVERSE-Spock can literally just remove your team.

Is this how you expect to win the tournament? Walk into every thread, point out you have the 8 point Cosmic Ring and state "Spider-man warps the universe and everything in it but himself to nothing because Kubik did, and my ABC logic of the Kubik Adaptoid fight says he can, I win!"

I'm telling you right now, that isn't gonna fly here and it isn't gonna fly anywhere else. You're way overshooting what the Cosmic Ring can do.

Actually, my logic is 'The Kubik Adaptoid fight shows that the Cosmic Ring is equal in power to a Cosmic Cube, but with size limitations. Put together with Kenji Uedo's telepathic immunity to my entire team, Blink's ability to teleport your team to my location if she knows where they are, along with my army of T-Spheres and Kenji's insect familiars to help her know where they are based on Necrosha, and Subject Delta's ability to use his drill-arm to block any and all projectiles coming through a portal (like the ones Blink makes) and Spock's ability to create Ragnaroks, Cold Fields, and etc due to his genius nature and Peter Parker's memories, gives me an unbeatable strategy. I am immune to telepathic assault, invulnerable within my 15-foot radius, have the ability to stop any and all speedblitzers/projectiles, have an army of Thors, and can port your team into my sphere (literally) of influence with Blink. Thus I win.'

I mean, you haven't ACTUALLY said why this logic was wrong. The Cosmic Ring is equal to the Cosmic Cube in terms of power, and Kubik DID remove the universe except for himself, so the Cosmic Ring COULD remove the universe in the 15x15 area except for Parker. My team members complement each other perfectly to give me an unbeatable strat (in my eyes); isn't that...y'know, what the IDEAL TEAM is?

Yes. It's an ongoing character struggle and a month is enough to bring back Parker's ghost and take it away again -it's likely to be the focus of the series and multiple interviews hint at Parker coming back, this time not in corporeal form. Somehow. If it was a month from when the battle started, Spock'd still have those memories if I'm thinking correctly.

As of now, the only thing in 616 with Peter's memories is the little golden octobug. Spock made a great effort to remove every trace of Parker's mind from his own because it kept thwarting him.

Right, well, doesn't actually refute my points, but I'll keep that in mind.

Didn't you say 'throw creation blades'?

I did say she'd shoot them into Spock, though that's probably a poor choice of words. I didn't even know you had a cold field at the time because you hadn't brought it up. Forgive me for my mistake, though my characters are not privy to my faults thanks to the precognition and full knowledge. I did later amend it to teleporting because I pre-empted Diredrill's ruling, because I don't like having my strategy foiled by judgement scenarios, so I pulled a maneuver that would not be subject to Diredrill's rulings on gear.

Ah. Yes.

#58 Posted by Dredeuced (5717 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium:

Not Exiles, the Astonishing X-Men from Age of Apocalypse, Issue #1. If you have it, that'd be great.

I don't. Exiles picks up after AoA and I haven't even read the earlier Exiles.

You realize your team will have to attack me, right? And Spock's projecting that field over the entire 15 meters.

15 meters does not equal 15 feet. Her molecular awareness has a much higher range than your cold field.

Ah, thought it was bought equipment. Point taken.

In the original post, the first stuff is gear they come with naturally, the bought stuff is in the parentheses and comes second.

An anti-teleportation barrier OUTSIDE of the cold field. (well inside.)

Map:

I actually was originally going to say it was different kinds of teleportation based on 616 Blink being able to teleport people without looking at them based off of Necrosha, but as Astonishing X-Men #1 from Age of Apocalypse and the scan I posted of Mutant Cheesecake shows, Blink has the same powers. Luckily my team would know this instead of me just figuring out, and the strategy geniuses that Spock and Kenji are would probably be like 'y'know, we're kind of impenetrable within our field...why don't we just put up an anti-teleport field all the way up until the cold field we're going to put up? that'll work.'


...Is the rest of your team inside the cold field? You realize that would kill them, right? and also slow them down to absolute zero? Only the guy using the Cold Gun is immune to its effects (They actually aren't, Snart's got a special costume that prevents him from killing himself, but I believe Diredrill ruled that the cold gun wouldn't kill its own user when it was brought up).

Also, if there is a barrier that prevents teleportation, how does your Blink teleport things inside of it?

Also I still don't know what the mutant cheesecake scan shows. It's literally a single, tiny panel ripped from a page completely out of context.

So I'm expecting you to counter this with your crystal glasses.


Handy, aren't they? Not to mention Alita's Chi. Her chi is literally the ability identify something's weakness and focus efforts on the weakest point of it.

You realize even the Flash and Superman get tagged sometimes, right? It's called 'low showings' -every story with Flash or Supes in it would be boring if the writers didn't slow them down. Same with Zoom.

If you are comparing Blink to The Flash then I believe there's a really, really big disconnect, here. It's not low showings if your characters are consistently street level, which all of ours are.

Well, no. I mean, they both did exactly what they put their mind to, Reed just wasn't really interested in taking over the universe.

Cosmic Cubes have failed before, though. They aren't actually omnipotence incarnate as you seem to believe.

Actually, my logic is 'The Kubik Adaptoid fight shows that the Cosmic Ring is equal in power to a Cosmic Cube, but with size limitations.

Equal in power to Kubik, apparently a limited Kubik considering he gets unlimited later.

Put together with Kenji Uedo's telepathic immunity to my entire team, Blink's ability to teleport your team to my location if she knows where they are, along with my army of T-Spheres and Kenji's insect familiars to help her know where they are based on Necrosha, and Subject Delta's ability to use his drill-arm to block any and all projectiles coming through a portal (like the ones Blink makes) and Spock's ability to create Ragnaroks, Cold Fields, and etc due to his genius nature and Peter Parker's memories, gives me an unbeatable strategy. I am immune to telepathic assault, invulnerable within my 15-foot radius, have the ability to stop any and all speedblitzers/projectiles, have an army of Thors, and can port your team into my sphere (literally) of influence with Blink. Thus I win.'

Kenji's insect familiars, again, have been addressed. Alita has "familiars" of her own that specifically seek out hidden traps and the like and blow them up. I thought you dropped the Blink Necrosha thing due to lack of context and knowledge of the scan you provided, but you're referencing it again. We've gone over the T-spheres thing -- you ended up dropping it, much like the Blink feat, so I assumed you had no actual counter because you never gave me a feat with the Spheres. But, hey, you bring it up again I'll shoot it down again.

Subject Delta trying to block a creation blade would end with his drill getting sliced to pieces. They literally cut through anything. They kill reality warpers. And they wouldn't even be projectiles, just teleporting inside of your reality warper. The Cold Fields only project a few feet, the Ragnaroks are apparently...building a wall of themselves to protect you, or something? I don't know.

Blink can't port anyone without throwing her daggers. That's why she has them. There's literally no point in the decade+ showings of her throwing the daggers to teleport things at a distance if seh didn't have to. Doc doesn't have Peter Parker's memories.

It's amazing how often you repeat these things but, hey, try something again and again until it works...what do they call that? It's like one of those blow up punching clown toys.

Also pfft at being invincible with the ring. The Ring changes hands like a dozen times and no one's ever been invincible with it. Half the time the dude's finger just gets it cut off. If the Cosmic Ring granted you utter true invincibility then why would anyone ever buy another artifact? Once again you bloviate your gear.

I mean, you haven't ACTUALLY said why this logic was wrong.

Well this sure as hell ain't true. That's all I've been doing.

The Cosmic Ring is equal to the Cosmic Cube in terms of power, and Kubik DID remove the universe except for himself, so the Cosmic Ring COULD remove the universe in the 15x15 area except for Parker. My team members complement each other perfectly to give me an unbeatable strat (in my eyes); isn't that...y'know, what the IDEAL TEAM is?

An ideal team wouldn't have a completely useless member. Your ideal team is saying that anyone with Blink + Cosmic Ring = I win every round. It's not the unflappable strategy you seem to think it is.

I don't think my team is unbeatable, but I do think I've riposted most everyone of your strategies effectively.

Right, well, doesn't actually refute my points, but I'll keep that in mind.


If your plan is to use Peter Parker's memories to do something then it does refute your plan, because Spock intentionally got rid of them.

#59 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

@thedarklordpandamonium:

Not Exiles, the Astonishing X-Men from Age of Apocalypse, Issue #1. If you have it, that'd be great.

I don't. Exiles picks up after AoA and I haven't even read the earlier Exiles.

Really? :o They're quite great.

You realize your team will have to attack me, right? And Spock's projecting that field over the entire 15 meters.

15 meters does not equal 15 feet. Her molecular awareness has a much higher range than your cold field.

damn americans

Ah, thought it was bought equipment. Point taken.

In the original post, the first stuff is gear they come with naturally, the bought stuff is in the parentheses and comes second.

that makes SO MUCH MORE SENSE

An anti-teleportation barrier OUTSIDE of the cold field. (well inside.)

Map:

I actually was originally going to say it was different kinds of teleportation based on 616 Blink being able to teleport people without looking at them based off of Necrosha, but as Astonishing X-Men #1 from Age of Apocalypse and the scan I posted of Mutant Cheesecake shows, Blink has the same powers. Luckily my team would know this instead of me just figuring out, and the strategy geniuses that Spock and Kenji are would probably be like 'y'know, we're kind of impenetrable within our field...why don't we just put up an anti-teleport field all the way up until the cold field we're going to put up? that'll work.'

...Is the rest of your team inside the cold field? You realize that would kill them, right? and also slow them down to absolute zero? Only the guy using the Cold Gun is immune to its effects (They actually aren't, Snart's got a special costume that prevents him from killing himself, but I believe Diredrill ruled that the cold gun wouldn't kill its own user when it was brought up).

Also, if there is a barrier that prevents teleportation, how does your Blink teleport things inside of it?

Also I still don't know what the mutant cheesecake scan shows. It's literally a single, tiny panel ripped from a page completely out of context.

Er, the cold field is supposed to be like a ring around their position, as its purpose was basically so that Diredrill could get rid of light-speeders and it stops anyone who goes through it cold (lol). And as the teleport thing, I already said why I thought they were different due to the whole...yeah. You get it. But my team members don't, and they'd put one up.

I'm going to try and get a copy of Astonishing X-Men #1 in Age of Apocalypse so I can look at that feat better. Of course, it's...not really my point to defend, as its a strength for you.

So I'm expecting you to counter this with your crystal glasses.

Handy, aren't they? Not to mention Alita's Chi. Her chi is literally the ability identify something's weakness and focus efforts on the weakest point of it.

That was a prod for you to post a new plan. Clearly you know not to go through the cold field...

You realize even the Flash and Superman get tagged sometimes, right? It's called 'low showings' -every story with Flash or Supes in it would be boring if the writers didn't slow them down. Same with Zoom.

If you are comparing Blink to The Flash then I believe there's a really, really big disconnect, here. It's not low showings if your characters are consistently street level, which all of ours are.

I'll leave it up to the voters.

Well, no. I mean, they both did exactly what they put their mind to, Reed just wasn't really interested in taking over the universe.

Cosmic Cubes have failed before, though. They aren't actually omnipotence incarnate as you seem to believe.

Yeah, that's true.

Actually, my logic is 'The Kubik Adaptoid fight shows that the Cosmic Ring is equal in power to a Cosmic Cube, but with size limitations.

Equal in power to Kubik, apparently a limited Kubik considering he gets unlimited later.

Put together with Kenji Uedo's telepathic immunity to my entire team, Blink's ability to teleport your team to my location if she knows where they are, along with my army of T-Spheres and Kenji's insect familiars to help her know where they are based on Necrosha, and Subject Delta's ability to use his drill-arm to block any and all projectiles coming through a portal (like the ones Blink makes) and Spock's ability to create Ragnaroks, Cold Fields, and etc due to his genius nature and Peter Parker's memories, gives me an unbeatable strategy. I am immune to telepathic assault, invulnerable within my 15-foot radius, have the ability to stop any and all speedblitzers/projectiles, have an army of Thors, and can port your team into my sphere (literally) of influence with Blink. Thus I win.'

Kenji's insect familiars, again, have been addressed. Alita has "familiars" of her own that specifically seek out hidden traps and the like and blow them up. I thought you dropped the Blink Necrosha thing due to lack of context and knowledge of the scan you provided, but you're referencing it again. We've gone over the T-spheres thing -- you ended up dropping it, much like the Blink feat, so I assumed you had no actual counter because you never gave me a feat with the Spheres. But, hey, you bring it up again I'll shoot it down again.

Well I dropped it because your team was coming to me anyways; I needed Blink because, well, I can hardly say 'my team sits inside my super-bubble and waits for you to come to me', now can I?

Subject Delta trying to block a creation blade would end with his drill getting sliced to pieces. They literally cut through anything. They kill reality warpers. And they wouldn't even be projectiles, just teleporting inside of your reality warper. The Cold Fields only project a few feet, the Ragnaroks are apparently...building a wall of themselves to protect you, or something? I don't know.

Anti-teleport fields! Already said Spock and Kenji would realize this. Cold Fields being only a few feet doesn't mean much considering they'll, y'know, slow you a lot. The Ragnaroks are my army and will deal with your slowed team.

Blink can't port anyone without throwing her daggers. That's why she has them. There's literally no point in the decade+ showings of her throwing the daggers to teleport things at a distance if seh didn't have to. Doc doesn't have Peter Parker's memories.

*she

I am going to pick up a copy of Necrosha before the next round, but since you're teleporting to me anyways it doesn't matter. I've addressed the Doc point like thrice and am not doing it again.

It's amazing how often you repeat these things but, hey, try something again and again until it works...what do they call that? It's like one of those blow up punching clown toys.

You realize neither of us have said anything new for a while now? Literally this entire response could have come before my last and it wouldn't have mattered.

Also pfft at being invincible with the ring. The Ring changes hands like a dozen times and no one's ever been invincible with it. Half the time the dude's finger just gets it cut off. If the Cosmic Ring granted you utter true invincibility then why would anyone ever buy another artifact? Once again you bloviate your gear.

Weakness to telepathy, its user needs to be really good and have good reflexes and know a lot (which mine does), limited range (got blink for that and your team is coming to me). Notice, of course, that you haven't actually said anything to me being all 'I get Kubik's feats' and just laughed off the instances of him separating quarks (nobody knows how much energy this would take, but...a lot, probably) or removing the universe which I can do in my 15-foot radius sphere of influence. The reason their fingers get cut off is because 1) Freedom Ring had literally a day to practice and had no idea what the ring could do, 2) Punisher is a walking plot device, 3) Crusader Skrull didn't do anything but get chicks (though really, who wouldn't?) and 4) Super Adaptoid is a robot and was tricked into shutting itself down by Captain America, one of the Plot Device Trio along with Batman and Punisher.

I mean, you haven't ACTUALLY said why this logic was wrong.

Well this sure as hell ain't true. That's all I've been doing.

The Cosmic Ring is equal to the Cosmic Cube in terms of power, and Kubik DID remove the universe except for himself, so the Cosmic Ring COULD remove the universe in the 15x15 area except for Parker. My team members complement each other perfectly to give me an unbeatable strat (in my eyes); isn't that...y'know, what the IDEAL TEAM is?

An ideal team wouldn't have a completely useless member. Your ideal team is saying that anyone with Blink + Cosmic Ring = I win every round. It's not the unflappable strategy you seem to think it is.

Subject Delta happens to have a lot of uses that I've already brought up (mostly just his super-projecting-projectiles thing) and is my contingency plan if someone else has a Cosmic Ring, as he has a lot of versatility with his plasmids.

I don't think my team is unbeatable, but I do think I've riposted most everyone of your strategies effectively.

Right, well, doesn't actually refute my points, but I'll keep that in mind.

If your plan is to use Peter Parker's memories to do something then it does refute your plan, because Spock intentionally got rid of them.

Please read the counter. Please.

Of course, this is what you have to do to win:

1) Destroy the cold field, somehow getting past the barriers that have always blocked ranged attacks like bullets and webbing and Super Skrull-blasts

2) Get past FTL Thors and Spock who are just light-speed-tackling around so it's impossible; even if only their travel time is FTL you'd still lose

3) Get past FTL reactions Blink

4) Somehow beat Spock with the Phoenix Fragment, even though I can remove the universe and all that in my sphere of influence of the Ring and the Phoenix Force vs Magus w/5 cubes extrapolation shows it's more powerful

#60 Edited by Dredeuced (5717 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium:

Er, the cold field is supposed to be like a ring around their position, as its purpose was basically so that Diredrill could get rid of light-speeders and it stops anyone who goes through it cold (lol). And as the teleport thing, I already said why I thought they were different due to the whole...yeah. You get it. But my team members don't, and they'd put one up.

That's not how Cold's field works. It's not a single ring -- it projects an aura around him. That's why he needs the special gear that stops him from freezing himself to death.

You didn't really point out how they were different.

Nothing else is new.

I mean if you want a counter to Cold's gun then my team could just use heat projection from the Phoenix and the Dragon Talisman. Heatwave has always been able to cancel out Cold's gun with enough heat, just like wally has with friction. It's not the hardest obstacle to overcome if you're aware it's there (which we are, thanks to crystal glasses + alita's crazy senses).

#61 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

@thedarklordpandamonium:

Er, the cold field is supposed to be like a ring around their position, as its purpose was basically so that Diredrill could get rid of light-speeders and it stops anyone who goes through it cold (lol). And as the teleport thing, I already said why I thought they were different due to the whole...yeah. You get it. But my team members don't, and they'd put one up.

That's not how Cold's field works. It's not a single ring -- it projects an aura around him. That's why he needs the special gear that stops him from freezing himself to death.

You didn't really point out how they were different.

Nothing else is new.

I mean if you want a counter to Cold's gun then my team could just use heat projection from the Phoenix and the Dragon Talisman. Heatwave has always been able to cancel out Cold's gun with enough heat, just like wally has with friction. It's not the hardest obstacle to overcome if you're aware it's there (which we are, thanks to crystal glasses + alita's crazy senses).

@diredrill: Use ruling magic.

I pointed out that I thought they were different, thus an anti-teleportation barrier would have worked, backed up why I did, showed why I did was wrong, then showed that due to Full Knowledge my team wouldn't have this flaw and would know to put up an anti-teleportation barrier.

It's sad that all we have left to debate about is whether or not I can use a cold field to stop you from blitzing me, as we've just stopped debating everything else.

So you have 30 seconds, right? Shard of Lightning, instant teleport -how long do you reckon it would take to take out the cold field? Does Diredrill say it can be taken out? Does it take speed force friction to beat the cold field? Why won't the field that Kurtis Doyle uses to block bullets, Ringmaster to stop webs, and Crusader Skrull to stop the strength of Super-Skrull and its energy blasts just instantly just block this energy projection? (because currently Diredrill's cold gun seems to just be 'stahp blitz' instead of working as you, the admirable captain cold expert, know it does)

Also, how exactly does this happen?

(it should be hyperlinked to start at 17:44.)

How does the one Jack use Shard of Lightning, and then the other jack react? Am I missing something?

#62 Edited by Dredeuced (5717 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium:

I pointed out that I thought they were different, thus an anti-teleportation barrier would have worked, backed up why I did, showed why I did was wrong, then showed that due to Full Knowledge my team wouldn't have this flaw and would know to put up an anti-teleportation barrier.

It's sad that all we have left to debate about is whether or not I can use a cold field to stop you from blitzing me, as we've just stopped debating everything else.

So you have 30 seconds, right? Shard of Lightning, instant teleport -how long do you reckon it would take to take out the cold field? Does Diredrill say it can be taken out? Does it take speed force friction to beat the cold field? Why won't the field that Kurtis Doyle uses to block bullets, Ringmaster to stop webs, and Crusader Skrull to stop the strength of Super-Skrull and its energy blasts just instantly just block this energy projection? (because currently Diredrill's cold gun seems to just be 'stahp blitz' instead of working as you, the admirable captain cold expert, know it does)

You are misconstruing what I'm saying. I'm not saying the cold field can't be used to stop blitzes, I'm saying I can counter the Cold's gun. During the Rogue War, Cold and Heatwave squared off multiple times. In #221 alone they have like 4 different encounters. Heatwave cancelled out Cold's full blast gun multiple times. Here's some scans if you want em:

Just because you have an item meant to stop blitzes does not mean I'm not allowed to counter said item with powers that have been shown before to counter it. Speed Force friction isn't particularly special, just a way of producing heat to counter his field.

And yeah, you can mockingly call me the "admirable captain cold expert" but I don't think anyone's gonna hold it against me that I know a lot about a piece of gear in the tourney. I've seen practically every showing of Cold's gun post crisis, sorry if this bothers you that I didn't feign stupid and ignore my knowledge.

My team is projecting the heat at light speeds that you don't get to stop our blitz.

Also, how exactly does this happen?

(it should be hyperlinked to start at 17:44.)

How does the one Jack use Shard of Lightning, and then the other jack react? Am I missing something?

...? He didn't react to it. He used it to effectively teleport behind him and snap his head. When someone moves fast enough it appears to be nothing more than teleportation. I've given you the showing of how the Shard of Lightning works relative to its user. In real time, yes, it does appear that Jack is just teleporting relative to the people who don't have light speed reactions, there.

#63 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: I'm sorry, I wasn't being mocking when I said that. I do respect your knowledge, and I was just pointing out that diredrill seems to want the cold gun to function differently than it does.

That being said, I'm not actually using a cold gun, I'm generating a field with the molecular manipulation abilities of the Cosmic Ring that is absolute zero to stop your light-speed blitz which I know of due to full knowledge. According to diredrill, this is supposed to stop your blitz...somehow.

So can you burn away the actual cold field? Is that what the Flash is doing? Doesn't look like it, he's just running around and generating tornadoes. I'd like to see an instance of friction burning away the cold field -since, y'know, this would basically violate Diredrill's thing about this being the answer to blitzes.

#64 Edited by Dredeuced (5717 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: I didn't show Flash doing it. I mean I can show you Flash running through Cold's field before, if you want, I was just stating that heat generation cancels absolute zero fields as established with Cold's tech.

Phoenix Force users, if anything, produce lots of heat and I've got two pyrokinetics with the double talismans on my team.

edit: You seem to think I was trying to show you Flash making Tornados to cancel it -- that's not what I was doing. Heatwave is the other guy with a gun who's having a beam collision fight with Cold. He's got a souped up Flamethrower that works like a fire version of Cold's gun (he can create a "heat" field like cold can create a cold field). It burns at a couple thousand degrees and has, several times before, cancelled Cold and his absolute zero field. They've had a lot of spats.

#65 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

@thedarklordpandamonium: I didn't show Flash doing it. I mean I can show you Flash running through Cold's field before, if you want, I was just stating that heat generation cancels absolute zero fields as established with Cold's tech.

Phoenix Force users, if anything, produce lots of heat and I've got two pyrokinetics with the double talismans on my team.

But you said you were talking about destroying the gun. Those scans are destroying the gun, right?

And I still fail to see how those Phoenix Force users are going to be getting through the Cosmic Ring's outer shielding, which has always pretty much automatically blocked ranged attacks (kind of a plot device since the users are all melee but meh), as your argument is that they're going at light-speed.

Also as for the shard of lightning thing, Jack takes off the head of Cyborg Jack, who then uses the Shroud of Shadows -which is supposed to be impossible as Jack is using the Shard of Lightning to travel at light speed. What gives there?

#66 Edited by Dredeuced (5717 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium said:

@dredeuced said:

@thedarklordpandamonium: I didn't show Flash doing it. I mean I can show you Flash running through Cold's field before, if you want, I was just stating that heat generation cancels absolute zero fields as established with Cold's tech.

Phoenix Force users, if anything, produce lots of heat and I've got two pyrokinetics with the double talismans on my team.

But you said you were talking about destroying the gun. Those scans are destroying the gun, right?

And I still fail to see how those Phoenix Force users are going to be getting through the Cosmic Ring's outer shielding, which has always pretty much automatically blocked ranged attacks (kind of a plot device since the users are all melee but meh), as your argument is that they're going at light-speed.

Also as for the shard of lightning thing, Jack takes off the head of Cyborg Jack, who then uses the Shroud of Shadows -which is supposed to be impossible as Jack is using the Shard of Lightning to travel at light speed. What gives there?

I never said I was destroying the gun? I said I was countering the field.

The shard of lighting thing doesn't really need explanation? He used it to get a cheap shot on the Jackbot, then started gloating. He wasn't using it anymore because he's a cheesey cartoon villain.

The Ring does not automatically block anything. I'm pretty sure it takes direct conscious effort to use.

#67 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Alright. Well, don't have much to say to that except for what I already said. Off to work now.

#68 Posted by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: They have been able to use Bose Einstein Condensates Near Absolute Zero but not Absolute Zero) to reduce the speed of light to 38 MPH. You also have to remember that the Flash in addition to speed also has access to the Speed Force which allows for all sorts of "magic" effects. The Flash is poor meter stick for his field. If his field did not slow down lightspeeders how was he able to get a shot off on Zoom? That should be next to impossible without the field's effects.

#69 Edited by Dredeuced (5717 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill said:

@dredeuced: They have been able to use Bose Einstein Condensates Near Absolute Zero but not Absolute Zero) to reduce the speed of light to 38 MPH. You also have to remember that the Flash in addition to speed also has access to the Speed Force which allows for all sorts of "magic" effects. The Flash is poor meter stick for his field. If his field did not slow down lightspeeders how was he able to get a shot off on Zoom? That should be next to impossible without the field's effects.

Fair enough, but that's kind of what I said -- they run light through a material at near zero temperatures to slow it down. Temperature itself doesn't necessarily affect lightspeed (Light is just as fast in the relatively heatless vacuum of space)., though can I still counter it with Heat like has been done before during Flash vol 2?

#70 Edited by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Light when traveling through a medium is actually slower than when it is traveling through a vacuum. It is the medium that slows things down. His Cold Field would be useless in space for stopping the Flash but it is because they are in an atmosphere that it works. Whether or not counters will work is up to how convincing you are to the judges.

#71 Posted by Dredeuced (5717 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill: This was my original point exactly. Temperature's effect on a medium is what slows down light, not temperature in and of itself. I mean I'm just shooting the breeze on physics talk.

Hopefully I was convincing enough. I suppose I could scan dump a bunch of Cold showings vs Heatwave and Flash but three should be enough.

#72 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: @diredrill: If we're going to be REALLY technical, Absolute Zero also insta-kills anything living going through it via superconductivity on the iron in their bloodstream and superviscosity on their blood, shutting down their systems. Also, in physics absolute zero couldn't possibly do anything to light in an atmosphere:

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1999/02.18/light.html

The article y'all are thinking of requires the vacuum of space to function.

Diredrill, should you just say 'the cold gun creates an aura around the user that slows anything entering it to 38 mph' or something like that?

#73 Edited by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio
#74 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: @thedarklordpandamonium: Are you guys ready for voting?

we tagged all the voters last page...XD

and then when none were forthcoming we just kept going.

we're pretty much completely done now. it's just that nobody responded.

#75 Posted by Dredeuced (5717 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill: I have been for a little while, we kind of ended up repeating ourselves a lot.

@dredeuced: @diredrill: If we're going to be REALLY technical, Absolute Zero also insta-kills anything living going through it via superconductivity on the iron in their bloodstream and superviscosity on their blood, shutting down their systems. Also, in physics absolute zero couldn't possibly do anything to light in an atmosphere:

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1999/02.18/light.html

The article y'all are thinking of requires the vacuum of space to function.

Diredrill, should you just say 'the cold gun creates an aura around the user that slows anything entering it to 38 mph' or something like that?

It wouldn't stop anything. I mean, hell, Nemesis has the Quantum Bands to defend her and her team from the temperatures. Forcefields have easily resisted Cold's gun before, as well. I don't think it's the absolute blitz protection you're making it out to be, or that you're trying to get it ruled as.

#76 Posted by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio
#77 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: I know it's not what I'm making it out to be, but it was diredrill's answer to me pointing out all the ftl things that allowed for speedblitz -the cold gun.

esquire, jokergeist -if you want, I could compile a sort of impartial flow of the battle (think high-school debate, LD and parli and all that) of responses, arguments that were dropped and then picked up, etc.

#78 Posted by Dredeuced (5717 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: I'd prefer to let the battle sit as we've argued it now that we've agreed to go to votes. Esquire and Joker signed up to read the debates, no matter how long. :P

#79 Posted by Dredeuced (5717 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for Dredeuced. That guy is awesome.

#80 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm voting for thedarklordpandamonium. He's pretty chill.

#81 Posted by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

To @dredeuced and @thedarklordpandamonium, I think that you two should vote for EACH OTHER. That way the voting is still tied, but you get the feeling of generosity and brotherly love. <3

Anyway, I'll announce my vote soon. I need to get through all dis.

#82 Edited by Dredeuced (5717 posts) - - Show Bio

@jokergeist: I tried, I just couldn't bring myself to vote against Dredeuced. Far too handsome and talented and smart.

#83 Edited by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

Try harder! You just need to BELIEVE!

*sprinkles Pixie Dust on @dredeuced*

Think Happy Thoughts!

#84 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio
#86 Posted by MKF30 (11635 posts) - - Show Bio

Very entertaining always fun to read these kinds of topics.

#87 Edited by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

WHY IS THIS DEBATE SO GODDAMN LONG!? *faints*

.

.

.

*wakes up* OKAY. I'm ready to vote.

You guys are obviously unfamiliar with how the Cold Gun works. Luckily, I know what it does.

I'm not convinced that heat would break this.
  • As Cap. Cold stated, the cold gun is regularly used to slow down the Flash. TDLP won't get speed-blitz'd.
  • Kenji Uedo provides the team with telepathic immunity, so TP isn't a problem either.
  • DarkLord also put up anti-teleportation fields.. so Blink isn't a threat either.

So TDLP has a pretty secure defense here. I don't think Dred can touch him. His army of Thor-level Ragnaroks is simply overpowering... not to mention Blink and the T-Spheres poses a viable threat too.

Vote goes to @thedarklordpandamonium.

Sincerely,

#88 Edited by Dredeuced (5717 posts) - - Show Bio

@jokergeist I specifically pointed out that both Nemesis' Quantum bands could shield my team from practically any temperature and that Heatwave's flamethrower has specifically removed Cold's absolute zero, which my team can replicate with 2 Dragon Talismans and Phoenix's heat projection. But if that wasn't enough to convince you then I'll accept that. I just don't like the inclination that I didn't address something.

Also, you really shouldn't call me "unfamiliar" with the Cold Gun. I've read every appearance of the damn thing from the past 30 years -- that's how I knew how to counter it. That's, frankly, insulting.

#89 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio
#90 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

After reading through twice, I have to give my vote to @dredeuced .

His debate was far more consistent than TDLP, and had far fewer holes in it. Dredeuced forced TDLP to drop parts of his strategy, and backed up his claims with references and scans when necessary. Darklord vacillated a lot over what exactly he would and could do with his cosmic ring, and some of his claims were poorly backed up or not backed up at all. (Especially with regards to Blink, where of his two instances he admitted he couldn't totally remember the context for one, and the AoA one he was totally wrong about. I have the issue in front of me. She just opens a portal and falls through it, like every other instance of her teleporting.) I was convinced by Dredeuced's countering of the Cold Field (Heat projection and Quantum bands) and T-Spheres (T-Masks), and I was more convinced by his assessment of Thor's combat speed and how it related to the Ragnaroks. I was also put off by TDLP's repeated confusion of travel speed vs combat speed, and his argument that Ock could retrieve Peter's memories because TDLP himself is of the opinion that their return will be a plot point in the future.

On the whole, Dredeuced put together a more consistent, convincing, and professional debate, which is why I'm giving my vote to him.

#91 Posted by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Look, I didn't mean to insult you. It's that 50% of this debate was confusion about the Cold Gun. That's all ^.^ Cheer up

It was actually these scans that didn't convince me:

Heat canceled his ice beam, but it wasn't his cold field.

I didn't show Flash doing it. I mean I can show you Flash running through Cold's field before, if you want

It would've helped if you did

A Little Advice for Dred:

Lighten up. ^.^

"And yeah, you can mockingly call me the 'admirable captain cold expert'" —Dredeuced

"I also feel you're insulting my intelligence with this hackneyed argument" —Dredeuced

"I just don't like the inclination that I didn't address something." —Dredeuced

"That's, frankly, insulting." —Dredeuced

You're constantly assuming that someone is insulting you or mocking you, and getting all riled up about it. Don't take things personal.

Be like me, and take everything as a joke. See the funny side. Don't stress over anything :D

Sincerely,

#92 Posted by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn, I was hoping for Jokergeist and Esquire to agree so that I would not have to vote but alas.

DLP brought up interesting arguments but ultimately they were addressed and countered by Dred. The usage of the Shard of Lightning and Phoenix Blink to ultimately speedblitz his opponent was effectively the big determinant here. While the Cold Field does stop most people, Dred was able to provide a reasonable counter.

Ultimately, I would say that DLP needs to more effectively make use of his full team and gear and not rely upon a single strategy that could be countered like Dred was able to do here. Additionally, he should have used some of his banked points to shore up weaknesses his team may have had against Dred. Had he bought some Shen Gong Wu or any number of items he could have countered much of their use.

Vote goes to @dredeuced but @thedarklordpandamonium did a good job against such a strong team. The Girl Power Perk really allowed Dredeuced to build a powerful team that would have been difficult to beat especially with so limited a number of spent points.

Given that I was the tie breaker, I would like to thank both competitors for competing. @dredeuced is the winner. Dredeuced has earned 9 Mid Tier Points.

#93 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire @diredrill Thanks, though I don't agree with your 'single strategy' thing. Here's what I said last.

'Of course, this is what you have to do to win:

1) Destroy the cold field, somehow getting past the barriers that have always blocked ranged attacks like bullets and webbing and Super Skrull-blasts

2) Get past FTL Thors and Spock who are just light-speed-tackling around so it's impossible; even if only their travel time is FTL you'd still lose

3) Get past FTL reactions Blink

4) Somehow beat Spock with the Phoenix Fragment, even though I can remove the universe and all that in my sphere of influence of the Ring and the Phoenix Force vs Magus w/5 cubes extrapolation shows it's more powerful'

(this was in like my last post, at which point dred and i just got to discussing the cold field)

I had four requirements Dred had to fulfill. He never answered why he'd be able to destroy the barriers when nobody else has. He never answered the light-speed tackle, just saying that it was only travel time that Thor was showing (which a light speed tackle utilizes). He merely scoffed off multiple instances of Blink's FTL reactions, saying if it were the case she'd never be tagged. And he NEVER answer how he was going to kill Spock given the extrapolation and Kubik feats.

Esquire, I mentioned twice or thrice that even if it was just travel speed, in number 2 the light-speed tackle still would have stopped him cold. My reasoning for dropping the T-Sphere argument was that it was to get the other team to come to me, something dredeuced was doing anyways. I repeated myself THRICE on this. As for the Blink to Necrosha thing, I posted a scan of her at Selena's side, and then someone noticing the numbers in Genosha rising. I noted that it was possible Blink could have teleported there and back, but that it was more likely she just teleported them to her, and also that given she's opened portals she's NEVER been before (i.e. to genosha in the first place) it was highly likely she could.

My argument for Spock's memories was that, if he had started preparing a month before the tournament, at that point he'd still have the memories and would use them. It's as though the character suddenly became depowered or powered -if I were using Cable and he suddenly became God Cable, would I be using God Cable? Nope.

Diredrill, when I first looked at the match I outlined my strategy, and thought to myself 'I don't really see myself needing anything here'. I saw more difficult opponents that I could have used my banked points against. And, again, Crusader Skrull has used the Cosmic Ring's shields to block blasts equal to Super Skrull's power, a point I brought up.

As Jokergeist pointed out, Dredeuced never really countered my teleportation barrier getting rid of the Creation Blades and the fact that the Cosmic Ring in its radius is more powerful than the Phoenix Fragment with Kenji's telepathy blocking the Phoenix Fragment's worldwide-level telepathy.

Considering that I used 3 of the members of my team critically and regularly would have used the other one critically, whereas Dred used, well, 2, I felt that I had a better team composition, something we also argued about.

But if I didn't convince you, it didn't convince you. I am sorry to hear that.

And seriously dredeuced, you need to chill out.

#94 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio
#95 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

Esquire, I mentioned twice or thrice that even if it was just travel speed, in number 2 the light-speed tackle still would have stopped him cold.

But the point is that Thor doesn't consistently have the reflexes to attempt a "light speed tackle" before his lightspeed opponents would get by him. He can't think fast enough to react to opponents moving at much, much lower than light speed. There's a reason he never uses a light speed tackle or even a hypersonic tackle to hit Spider-Man or Mongoose or Wolverine or any of the other speedless characters he can't tag normally. It's not that he can't move fast enough in a straight line, it's that he can't accurately target where his opponents are when they're in motion, even those with far less than near-light operational speed. Light speed tackle doesn't address this issue.

My reasoning for dropping the T-Sphere argument was that it was to get the other team to come to me, something dredeuced was doing anyways.

I was just more convinced by the way Dredeuced countered your strategies. You both had to work around the other person's counters, but Dredeuced's counters seemed more effective to me. The fact that he negated your strategy with the T-Spheres was just one example of that. Although you did indeed work around the counter, the fact that he no-sold that particular point is a point in his favor. It makes sense in my head, I'm not sure I'm explaining myself very well.

As for the Blink to Necrosha thing, I posted a scan of her at Selena's side, and then someone noticing the numbers in Genosha rising. I noted that it was possible Blink could have teleported there and back, but that it was more likely she just teleported them to her, and also that given she's opened portals she's NEVER been before (i.e. to genosha in the first place) it was highly likely she could.

The only scan you posted of the Necrosha event was one that you later admitted did not contain Blink. Which scan had Blink at Selene's side? I just went through the debate again and I didn't see anything like that. Since all other showings of Blink and the very existence of her tele-daggers contradict her possessing this ability, and your only other evidence was a single panel that you misinterpreted, I couldn't bring myself to be convinced by that part of your argument.

My argument for Spock's memories was that, if he had started preparing a month before the tournament, at that point he'd still have the memories and would use them. It's as though the character suddenly became depowered or powered -if I were using Cable and he suddenly became God Cable, would I be using God Cable? Nope.

But the problem is that he removed the memories. They are no longer there for him to access. You never clarified how he would go about retrieving them, just saying that if he has a month then he can do it. If you'd explained why you felt that way, I may have been convinced.

On the whole, you made a very good debate with a very interesting team. In my subjective opinion, however, Dredeuced made the better argument. I know what it's like to be voted against and I wish you could move on to the next round as well, but I had to vote for one of you, and Dredeuced was a little sharper from my point of view. A very solid effort by both of you, though.

#96 Edited by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio
#97 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire:

Here were my four points by the end of the debate:

Of course, this is what you have to do to win:

1) Destroy the cold field, somehow getting past the barriers that have always blocked ranged attacks like bullets and webbing and Super Skrull-blasts

Dredeuced uses the Quantum Bands to negate temperature.

2) Get past FTL Thors and Spock who are just light-speed-tackling around so it's impossible; even if only their travel time is FTL you'd still lose

Dredeuced clarifies his no-Mjolnir argument to include this; the Ragnaroks can't go at light speed without Mjolnir.

3) Get past FTL reactions Blink

My anti-teleport barrier extends to her.

4) Somehow beat Spock with the Phoenix Fragment, even though I can remove the universe and all that in my sphere of influence of the Ring and the Phoenix Force vs Magus w/5 cubes extrapolation shows it's more powerful

Left relying on one insanely overpowered item which nobody could hope to beat (it's a lot more powerful than diredrill gives it credit for; I could make the SoK gun bullet zoom around me ad infinitum, cancel out any and all telepathy, or simply remove the piece of universe the power gem user is in. It's as powerful as Kubik, who punked the Beyonder)? Not the sign of a good debater.