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#1 Posted by DireDrill (2433 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1 : Abandoned Attilan

The first battle takes place in the Inhuman City of Attilan after the Event. Given that many Inhumans are above limits, they were spirited away leaving Attilan without much of its leadership and command crew. This left Attilan drifting through deep space. Over time its power reserves began draining leading to shutdown of non-critical systems. Only Life Support and Gravity are still running but not without their drawbacks. Life Support systems were left in Rain Storm Mode leading to parts of the city being flooded while Gravity was left on Moon Mode lowering gravity to Earth's Moon's Gravity.

Power can be restored if you choose to expend time doing so but it will take 1 Hour of Time to do so regardless of what powers and abilities you have.

Attilan's Computer can be hacked but given the limited power, you can't really do much beyond lower Gravity and change the weather.

There is 1 Set of 5 Space Suits in the otherwise empty Chamber of Devices.

Rules:

  • No BFR is allowed but if you can manage to push someone into space who can't survive in space, it will work as expected.
  • No Tele-BFR or Dismemberment
  • Win is by Death, Incapacitation, or KO
  • Each team gets 5 minutes prep and basic info about the enemy team. The Basic Info includes names, pictures, and abiities. Bought Equipment is not known until you engage it. Obviously, if you have the perks that grant you more prep or knowledge, you get that instead.
  • The First Team Listed starts in the Old City while the Second Team Listed starts in the Prison. Fear not Second Team, you don't have to break out. :)
  • Bought Items are listed in Parentheses.

@dredeuced

  • Blink - (Phoenix Fragment, 1 T-sphere, Golden Finger, Reversing Mirror, Wushan Geyser)
  • Alita - Tuned Rifle, Pistol, Damascus Blade, Fireflies ,Missile Bees, Arachnos, Laser Bugs, Lice Probes, Mono-Molecular Filament grappling hook, Smoke Grenades (Amazon Armory, 2 T-Spheres, 10 Talismans(sans Horse and Dog), Hoduku Mouse, Golden Tiger Claws)
  • Zazie - Exo-Arms, Non-Electromagnetic Bullets, Zanber KZ90 (10mm Rifle with Grenade Launcher and Combat blade), Multi-Stack Shotgun, Two Pistols, Mono-Molecular filament Net Trap, Frag Grenades, Thermite Grenades, Smoke Grenades, Hovering smart-fuse missiles, Land Mines, Demolition Cable, Blast Shield, Magnum loaded with Osmium Bullets, Berserker Corruption Bullets, Berserker Neutralizing bullets, Plastic Explosive Ammo and Ceramic Combat Knife (Amazon Armory, 2 T-Spheres, Pym Particles, Snake Talisman, Pig Talisman, Dog Talisman, Mind Reader Conch)
  • Zealot -Kusar Blades, Automatic Rifle (Soul Sword and Eldritch Armor, 3 T-Spheres, Shard of Lightning, Kuzusu Atom, 10 Talismans)
  • Nemesis - Creation Blades(Quantum Bands, 2 T-Spheres, Crystal Glasses, Shadow of Fear, Horse Talisman)

Achievements:

  • Girl Power
  • Meek Inherit Earth

vs.

@thedarklordpandamonium

  • 616 Blink
  • Superior Spider-man - Pellets, Stealth Suit and Glider
  • Kenji Uedo
  • Subject Delta

90 T - Spheres

Cosmic Ring

Banking 5 High Tier Points, 5 Mid Tier Points, and 2 Low Tier Points

Achievements:

  • One Hand Tied
  • Absolute Power
  • Meek Inherit Earth
  • I Am The Law
#2 Posted by dondave (33366 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be good

#3 Posted by Dredeuced (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium I figure I'll let you spend your banked points before either of us go into prep and strategy.

#4 Posted by Dextersinister (5674 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium I figure I'll let you spend your banked points before either of us go into prep and strategy.

TDLP won't be back until the 16th. I was confused on why he signed up for this.

Online
#5 Posted by Dredeuced (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: Oh, uh...I'd rather not post an argument in case he comes back earlier and uses his banked points to counter it, though. Bleh.

#6 Posted by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

TDLP won't be back until the 16th.

Ha! The 16th?? That's a week from now! Well @Dredeuced, I suppose you auto-win this round.

Too bad though, that you can't use that sh!&load of gear that you gave your team. I mean- 31 standard items and 30 bought items!?!? What the hell do you need that many toys for? xP

#7 Edited by DireDrill (2433 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: Really? Do you know where he is? If this is true I may have to DQ him.

@dredeuced: If he is indeed gone till the 16th, would you be amenable to me subbing in with my team?

#8 Posted by Dextersinister (5674 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill: He had to go abroad on a family emergency

Online
#9 Edited by Dredeuced (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill: I suppose. Though you kind of have an info advantage (I doubt you'll be picking an iron man armor knowing what you know :P)

@jokergeist: Better safe than sorry. Plus, it's actually Zazie's standard gear. You can see her carrying everything!

Her entire role is "has lots of crazy gear." On top of typical superhuman stats being a cyborg gives ya.

#10 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

denied. banked points will remain banked for this round.

strategy?

set up the tspheres, teleport your team with blink into cosmic ringradius where they are warped dead.

#11 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: my phone got stolen so I'm using opera. which doesn't let me post images. so here is a link to a previous battle where I posted some of blinks awesomeness

www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/ffst-r1-thedarklordpandamonium-vs-theonetaichou-vo-1462071/

sorry

#12 Edited by Dredeuced (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium said:

denied. banked points will remain banked for this round.

strategy?

set up the tspheres, teleport your team with blink into cosmic ringradius where they are warped dead.

If you're not going to spend your banked points then I don't think it's legal to spend them after you've set a strategy.

Anyhow, every single character on my team has a T-Mask. The main power of the T-Mask is invisibility to technology, so your T-spheres shouldn't be able to find my team to execute your usage of the cosmic ring(t-spheres have shown only typical mechanical sensors).

That said, would Blink be capable of using the Cosmic Ring to the degree it takes to kill a Phoenix empowered being like my Blink? The Cosmic Ring isn't an instant solve it to anything in its radius. Thankfully, I have other ways to counter it -- with Full Knowledge on how your Cosmic Ring works and Nemesis' Crystal Glasses. Using the Crystal Glasses allows her to know your team's exact next move via seeing the future:

Skip to 8:02, it specifically provides precognition of an opponent's action before they even attempt it. It would be very easy for Nemesis to arrange my team to stay a little over 15 feet away from each other in an equidistant manner. Blink attempting to warp in and cosmic ring my team to death not only lacks reliable means to be employed thanks to the T-masks, but would quickly be sniffed out. Even if you could successfully eliminate a single person, Blink would be kill in kind by anyone on my team -- if she teleported near Nemesis then she'd get a creation blade to the sternum, which has shown itself very capable of neutralizing powerful reality warpers (majestic vs tao). With the Quantum Bands defending her (She has experience in conjuring protective fields and constructs with her stealth suit systems so this should be quite natural to her) it shouldn't be too difficult.

Zazie could also use her Pym Particles to grow herself to massively larger than 15 feet. She might lose a foot to the cosmic ring, but she could return fire and kill Blink quite effectively while she warps said part of Zazie away.

Alita herself has Chi, which gives her molecular awareness in a 15 meter radius and precognition on her own. Thanks to her massively superior reaction time to Blink, Blink would teleport in, Alita would be alerted by her Chi, and she'd counter by killing Blink in any number of ways -- with the combination of the Amazon Armory's Sandals of Hermes and the Rabbit Talisman's speed boost (the Rabbit Talisman has shown to be able to boost things that are faster than supersonic, like space shuttles, before) Alita could quite easily blitz Blink before she could think if she tried to teleport in and solo Alita.

Zealot's probably my most susceptible member to the strategy, as she can't grow herself outside of the Ring's radius nor does she have precognition like Alita and Nemesis. If Blink did show up, she could probably activate the Shard of Lightning, which has a near teleport type effect, to escape the radius (which she should be aware of thanks to Full Knowledge). From the 15+ feet away, she could use the Kuzusu Atom to destroy Blink.

Now, moving aside from countering the strategy itself, I also think it's questionable that 616 Blink would cold bloodedly teleport in and attempt to kill 5 people as soon as she could. I mainly bring this up because I don't see how you get the I Am The Law perk with either Subject Delta (Stone cold good guy in the canon) or Blink, who hardly classifies as an Anti Hero (scared hero at best), or Kenji, who's only ever been on the X-men/Hope's side before his death despite his darker inclinations. If anyone who isn't a straight goodie two shoes counts as an anti hero then I dunno. I guess I'll have to get @diredrill to clarify if your team qualifies as 4 anti-heroes. I didn't think you could get both Meek Inherit the Earth AND I Am The Law. The two perks seem inherently contradictory.

#13 Posted by DireDrill (2433 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Potentially, you could qualify for all 3 of the morality awards if you had the space and the right characters. Why do you think I limited achievements to 4.

#14 Posted by Dredeuced (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Potentially, you could qualify for all 3 of the morality awards if you had the space and the right characters. Why do you think I limited achievements to 4.

I didn't think you could say someone is both a hero and an anti-hero at the same time, though. Does someone qualify as a villain if they've ever done something bad or what?

#15 Posted by DireDrill (2433 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Characters are not always of a single classification. Let's take Magneto for example. In his early life, he was very much so a good guy but later in life he did become a villain and now he seems to be functioning much more like an Anti-Hero. Then there are characters who are only one thing. Superman is a hero all the time. Lobo is an anti-hero all the time. Darkseid is bad guy all the time. Like I said, I was willing to be quite lenient in how the achievements were applied. Esquire qualified for both Ex-Men and More Like Professor SuX and that is clearly contradictory. Backflip qualified for We Built It and Absolute Power despite those being somewhat contradictory. I only didn't qualify Blink for Boom Headshot! because she has really no markmanship feats.

#16 Edited by Dredeuced (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill: Right, but I don't get how 616 Blink was ever an Anti Hero. Same with Kenji. I suppose Subject Delta could apply, but only if you think he can be both his good and evil versions at the same time (since Bioshock's whole deal is binary evil or good choices and you pick one).

Superior Spider-man would count for Hero and Villain thanks to being Doc Ock as well as Spider-man, but is he also an anti-hero? Does he intentionally go at odds with normal heroes to accomplish his goals? He just seems to have a big brother motif going on while trying to eliminate Parker from his mind. If anyone who's a hero and has killed someone qualifies to Anti-Hero then I guess I misunderstood your definition for it.

#17 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced:

1) I don't feel like I need to use my banked points this round, so I'll use them next round. That's okay, right? @diredrill: Yes?

2) 616 Blink was blatantly a villain at one point, but gradually went over to the hero side. Kenji has always been kind of a Kaiba. An anti-hero is basically a hero without good qualities. Same with Spock and Subject Delta. Thus I get all of the perks; Morals Off (which addresses the issue with Blink, even though that's not actually an issue since saying she wouldn't kill your team is like saying she wouldn't fight, which she has done a lot) full knowledge (which does stuff that I'll get to) and the double effectiveness which I'll need to ask diredrill about.

Diredrill: As for double effectiveness, does that apply to everything? That is to say, can Blink teleport say twice as fast or something like that?

Now on to the meat of the debate.

Firstly -you have T-Spheres, not T-Masks. They are not the same thing. T-Masks control T-Spheres via nanotech; T-Spheres can't become T-Masks.

Moreover even if you do have T-Masks...somehow, T-Spheres and T-Masks are of the same tech and user. T-Masks can't block T-Sphere detection, because otherwise it would be impossible for the T-Spheres to go to him as they wouldn't be able to see him. Your members are controlling their T-Spheres by voice, as opposed to Mr T's neural interface through his mask.

Thus, my T-Spheres will spread out and instantly find your team.

Now, as for Blink's role here -she's not going to be teleporting into your team, she's going to be teleporting your team into the radius of the Cosmic Ring, as I said. Proof that she can do this:

Here she teleports the Cheesecake decoy robot to their location because she knows where it is; once your team has been detected via T-Sphere, she will teleport them into the 15-foot radius of the Cosmic Ring.

Now, the Cosmic Ring has the same power as the Cosmic Cube, unlike the Phoenix Fragment which is much less than the Phoenix Force. Proof of this can be found in Super Adaptoid's battle vs Kubik; Super Adaptoid had a fragment of the Cosmic Ring which was called the Cosmic Ring, and Kubik was a sentient Cube. However, as soon as Kubik was in his range, Super Adaptoid, who is basically a boss, mimicked the Cube's power and immediately banished Kubik - which would be impossible if the fragment was not as powerful as the Cube.

Now for my attack against your team:

1) Blink teleports in the other Blink who is more of a threat, into the Cosmic Ring's radius, which has an Ultimate Nullifier, Nullifier (nullifies powers, duh) a non-teleport field, a Ragnarok or two, super-weapons, Bleeding Edge suits...you get the idea. Basically, her powers are nullified and she's killed by the ultimate weapon.

2) Blink teleports to the chamber which she locates via my army of T-Spheres, gets the suits, and teleports back where my team will put them on.

3) Blink teleports everyone else into a Supernova, Black Hole, Ultimate Nullifier, Forge's power nullifier, Ragnaroks, a Pym field, etc etc etc. Nothing can escape a black hole -I'd say even light, but according to Hawking's famous treatise (which is intrinsically flawed because he forgets about atom-sized black holes when accounting for the irregularities in gravitational pull but I DIGRESS) black holes pull in everything, and the latest model of string theory supports this. As I have full knowledge, the methods are not important; they'll just be killed by their weakness if they have any or generically if they don't.

There are two ways you can get out of this:

1) Prove that your characters could beat a Cosmic Cube

or

2) Escape being teleported into the radius of my attacks

As for 1, it's pretty much a lost cause. I've already proved that my Cosmic Ring is equal to a Cosmic Cube vs the Super Adaptoid vs Kubik battle where it shows that the Cosmic Ring just has a smaller effect radius. Your Phoenix Fragment Blink is nothing before the might of a Cosmic Cube in the hands of the inventine genius that the Superior Spiderman is. If your team has a telepathic threat, my team will know and Kenji Uedo will provide them with his telepathic immunity flesh implants, etc, etc...

Here he states that his constructs dissolve away from him when disconnected. This was true when he first gained his powers but at this point in time he's actually lying to them as the constructs remained in them as stated in a much later issue when he took over Utopia utilizing the knowledge he had gained scrutinizing No-Girls brain when she was connected to him to become incredibly skilled with his version of mind control.

2 is also a lost cause. Not only have I shown that T-Spheres cannot become T-Masks and thus you have no T-Masks, but also that T-Spheres have to be able to detect T-Masks because they often read Mr. Terrific in their scans and have to in order to detect him for him to control them. Now even if, say, one of your characters has a blanket electromagnetic pulse thingummy or whatever, Kenji can still put out tons of his flesh-flies to see your team.

Your move.

#18 Edited by dondave (33366 posts) - - Show Bio

When does voting start?

#19 Edited by Dredeuced (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium:

1) I don't feel like I need to use my banked points this round, so I'll use them next round. That's okay, right? @diredrill: Yes?

Okay? I'm pretty sure if you use them this round, they go back to being banked points next round. I guess I'll suffer the disrespect, though.

2) 616 Blink was blatantly a villain at one point, but gradually went over to the hero side. Kenji has always been kind of a Kaiba. An anti-hero is basically a hero without good qualities. Same with Spock and Subject Delta. Thus I get all of the perks; Morals Off (which addresses the issue with Blink, even though that's not actually an issue since saying she wouldn't kill your team is like saying she wouldn't fight, which she has done a lot) full knowledge (which does stuff that I'll get to) and the double effectiveness which I'll need to ask diredrill about.

Subject Delta was a deep sea diver who ingratiated himself with Rapture before Andrew Ryan had him turned into a Big Daddy for political reasons. He was never a bad guy. You can play him as a bad guy in the game, but the canon has him being a good guy as I'm aware. Blink was definitely a bad guy turned good guy, but that's not an anti-hero. Like I said, anyone who ruthlessly kills people at some point in their career doesn't seem to qualify as an anti-hero to me -- every single one of my characters has ruthlessly killed people and most of them have done bad stuff but they're all definitively on the good guy's side of things in their respective universes.

I wouldn't argue you having the all heroes perk because Subject Delta and Kenji are nothing but good guys (even if Delta kills people and Kenji is morally disturbed). Kenji's nothing like an anti-hero because he's rarely, if ever, at odds with heroes for his own morally ambiguous reasons. He's aligned with heroes while being morally ambiguous. That said, I will continue to argue you as if you have all the perks listed -- I only brought it up AFTER I stated counters because I thought it was weird how your team was constructed.

Heck I'm not even sure if Superior Spider-man is an anti-hero. He went from full time villain to full time hero with evil, but repressed, inclinations who's only beat up bad guys.

Firstly -you have T-Spheres, not T-Masks. They are not the same thing. T-Masks control T-Spheres via nanotech; T-Spheres can't become T-Masks.

Erm:

T-masks are specifically T-spheres. If they weren't I would've never bought them. Even in the thread, Diredrill pointed out how you could buy the T-spheres perk to make your team invisible to technology when someone was arguing about ways to counter the Amazo perk, so he clearly even put them in the tournament with the knowledge that they'd be doing exactly what I'm saying they do.

Moreover even if you do have T-Masks...somehow, T-Spheres and T-Masks are of the same tech and user. T-Masks can't block T-Sphere detection, because otherwise it would be impossible for the T-Spheres to go to him as they wouldn't be able to see him. Your members are controlling their T-Spheres by voice, as opposed to Mr T's neural interface through his mask.

Terrific controls the t-spheres mentally or by voice command. They follow his orders whether they can see him or not. I can provide scans of this if you want, too(he commands them to do things from his 9th dimensional lab while he's in the normal world). I've got all 8 issues of Terrific's solo on hand. Terrific's defining power is his tech's ability to make him invisible to tech. The T-spheres have never shown greater scanning capability than normal high tech gear -- they've got your typical radar/sonar and they can see all wavelengths of the electromagnetic spectrum. That should not get around the T-Mask invisibility.

Thus, my T-Spheres will spread out and instantly find your team.

We're in a pretty big arena. Even if your T-spheres could find my team, it'd hardly be instant. Unless you've got a travel time/wide area scanning feat for me. The best I've ever seen is Terrific disabling city wide telepathy by pre-emptively setting up his spheres across the city.

Now, as for Blink's role here -she's not going to be teleporting into your team, she's going to be teleporting your team into the radius of the Cosmic Ring, as I said. Proof that she can do this:

Here she teleports the Cheesecake decoy robot to their location because she knows where it is; once your team has been detected via T-Sphere, she will teleport them into the 15-foot radius of the Cosmic Ring.

Okay, first, you're posting literally a single panel out of a page completely out of context. I can't even tell what's going on or if what you're claiming's true. Who cuts out the entire page of a feat?

Secondly, can 616 Blink teleport people she can't see? Can she do it to people she can only see through a computer monitor(I'm assuming you're using the t-mask interface to interact with your t-sphere scanners)? Does she just have to know where they generally are to teleport them? You're making quite the egregious claim -- AoA Blink is generally 616's superior when it comes to teleporting and while she can teleport to places she can't see, she can't teleport things she can't see to her.

Now, the Cosmic Ring has the same power as the Cosmic Cube, unlike the Phoenix Fragment which is much less than the Phoenix Force. Proof of this can be found in Super Adaptoid's battle vs Kubik; Super Adaptoid had a fragment of the Cosmic Ring which was called the Cosmic Ring, and Kubik was a sentient Cube. However, as soon as Kubik was in his range, Super Adaptoid, who is basically a boss, mimicked the Cube's power and immediately banished Kubik - which would be impossible if the fragment was not as powerful as the Cube.

Ok, let's not get carried away here with incorrect correlations. There's a LOT of different Cosmic Cube beings who all vastly differ in power. Kubik and Molecule Man are both Cosmic Cube beings, but by Kubik's own statements he pales in comparison to Owen in both effective and potential power. Being able to "banish" someone also doesn't imply some inherent level of power. Blink could teleport Juggernaut but she's hardly his equal in power. You can't just assume all Cosmic Cube feats apply to both Kubik and the Ring when cosmic cubes and cosmic cube beings operate vastly differently from each otther.

I also don't get your little snipe at the Phoenix Fragment. Every single one of the Phoenix Five could overpower the entirety of the Avengers with the exception of Scarlet Witch (megaversal reality warping) and Hope ( who was phoenix empowered herself). The fragment was rated above the Cosmic Ring for a reason in this tourney -- world wide level telepathy, practical invulnerability and a general beyond marvel-earth stat pump is a pretty big deal. You put Cosmic Ring Blink vs Phoenix Fragment Blink and the Phoenix Fragment one mind rapes the cosmic ring user quite handily.

1) Blink teleports in the other Blink who is more of a threat, into the Cosmic Ring's radius, which has an Ultimate Nullifier, Nullifier (nullifies powers, duh) a non-teleport field, a Ragnarok or two, super-weapons, Bleeding Edge suits...you get the idea. Basically, her powers are nullified and she's killed by the ultimate weapon.

I may not be as well versed on the Cosmic Ring as you but....ultimate nullifier? Nuh uh. The Cosmic Ring has defineable limits -- if it was truly unbridled reality warping in a 15 foot radius then you could just create 20 ultimate nullifiers and hand them out to the rest of your team and ultimate nullify the battle easily from within your 15 foot square. But it can't do that because, as far as I'm aware, the cosmic ring doesn't have anything even close to those level of feats. You can't just use the words "reality warp" and say you win. I'm questioning the veracity of your claims in regards to the ring, frankly.

Anyhow, bleeding edge suits and ragnarok shouldn't even harm someone with the Phoenix Fragment. Iron Man couldn't deal with any of the Phoenix Five himself during the entire AvX arc despite sitting there and prepping for days on end in his lab and at K'un L'un.

Also, I mean, my Blink can golden finger your Blink upon being teleported there (Golden Finger freezes whoever it's pointed at in time) and teleport herself away. We can play dueling teleporters if you want but it seems rather silly.

2) Blink teleports to the chamber which she locates via my army of T-Spheres, gets the suits, and teleports back where my team will put them on.

Am I missing something here? What suits? If I knew there were objectives besides restoring power to the city I'd have commented on them. My team's got the ability to move all 5 of its members at lightspeed reaction speed(shard of lightning) and can teleport just as well as yours.

3) Blink teleports everyone else into a Supernova, Black Hole, Ultimate Nullifier, Forge's power nullifier, Ragnaroks, a Pym field, etc etc etc. Nothing can escape a black hole -I'd say even light, but according to Hawking's famous treatise (which is intrinsically flawed because he forgets about atom-sized black holes when accounting for the irregularities in gravitational pull but I DIGRESS) black holes pull in everything, and the latest model of string theory supports this. As I have full knowledge, the methods are not important; they'll just be killed by their weakness if they have any or generically if they don't.

Okay, see, we both have teleporters. This isn't an effective means of strategy because we also both have full knowledge. As a matter of fact, thanks to the Crystal Glasses and the Shard of Lightning, my team has lightspeed reaction time and precognition. Before your T-sphere's ever reach my team, we could just do this:

So, before your T-spheres ever leave from your starting area, my team can all move increase their speed to lightspeed and use our Blink to teleport to yours. Disarm you of your cosmic ring, teleport your Blink somewhere out of the way, whatever.

Oh, how will I find you? Well, the Phoenix Fragment gives world level telepathy. The P5 literally used it to teleport to all super villain crime scenes during AvX to take them out at will. If that wasn't enough, Nemesis has the Crystal Glasses, which tell us your next moves before you do them. If your move was to shoot T-spheres out en masse from your starting position then...that'd give your starting position away.

I'd also like you to show me the Cosmic Ring creating a Black Hole or a Supernova or an Ultimate Nullifier. If it can create a multiversal, 16 cost(unbuyable in this tournament as a joke by diredrill's own statement) artifact and use it at will then there's something shady going on here. Unless you're saying she teleports my team to a nearby Black Hole, in which case...what nearby Black Hole? I don't believe 616 Blink even has the Earth -> Moon teleportation feat AoA blink has.

None of my team has a specific weakness. We do have someone with weapons that specifically take out reality warpers, though(Majestic vs Tao with the power of 3 reality warpers, Majestic was using Nemesis' blades).

1) Prove that your characters could beat a Cosmic Cube

I've contested this a number of ways. I mean, with the Beyonder's power (a cosmic cube being) Peter Parker warped the entire universe to his whim and beat up Galactus to sate his ego and lived an entire fulfilled life in like a microsecond. Saying something is equal to a cosmic cube is like saying something is equal to a planet. Mercury is a planet -- but so is Jupiter. These things differ. My characters might not be able to beat a real cosmic cube, but they could move at light speed and gut the user with Creation Blades which specifically have feats of disabling reality warpers. As I'm aware, the Cosmic Ring does nothing for your character's reaction time, does it? Quite the easy blitz when you teleport Nemesis in with her Light Speed, Creation Blades, and precognition thanks to the Crystal Glasses.

Then, while still moving at light speed, she'll kill everyone else on your team who seems to be in close proximity with those very blades. It's not like any of your gear can stop Creation Blades.

2) Escape being teleported into the radius of my attacks

This would be quite easy with T-masks and the Crystal Glasses(could use them to avoid the T-spheres as precognition would let my team know where the Spheres are coming from and where they're scanning). Your whole plan seems to be using technology to scout and then abusing teleportation + cosmic ring. The rest of your team seems almost trivial in addition to it. Thankfully, my team is well equipped to deal with technology and teleportation.

As for 1, it's pretty much a lost cause. I've already proved that my Cosmic Ring is equal to a Cosmic Cube vs the Super Adaptoid vs Kubik battle where it shows that the Cosmic Ring just has a smaller effect radius. Your Phoenix Fragment Blink is nothing before the might of a Cosmic Cube in the hands of the inventine genius that the Superior Spiderman is.

I still question if Blink can teleport things she can't see the entire distance of the battlefield. I also question your interpretation of the Kubik vs Super Adaptoid fight. I also feel like I should mock your "might of the cosmic cube" statement. Phoenix Fragment gives me other distinct advantages, that's why it costs more.

If your team has a telepathic threat, my team will know and Kenji Uedo will provide them with his telepathic immunity flesh implants, etc, etc...

Here he states that his constructs dissolve away from him when disconnected. This was true when he first gained his powers but at this point in time he's actually lying to them as the constructs remained in them as stated in a much later issue when he took over Utopia utilizing the knowledge he had gained scrutinizing No-Girls brain when she was connected to him to become incredibly skilled with his version of mind control.

Nemesis has Empathy and Alita has Chi/Kizashi (precognition and weakness exploitation), but, well, Blink has a Phoenix Fragment. Kenji himself points out he can only do it to a degree -- I believe it'd be safe to say that degree is far less than someone with a Phoenix Fragment, so this should be moot.

2 is also a lost cause. Not only have I shown that T-Spheres cannot become T-Masks

Sure showed me. All that showing you did. This is actually kind of my problem with the presented arguments -- a lot of big claims, but not a lot of show behind the bluster.

Now even if, say, one of your characters has a blanket electromagnetic pulse thingummy or whatever

This wouldn't even work, EMPs don't stop Holt's tech, as far as I'm aware. Not that it matters.

Kenji can still put out tons of his flesh-flies to see your team.

So does he just...shoot out flesh worms that go scurrying around the entire arena? Travel time feats? Attillan is a pretty enormous city. I mean Alita's got something similar with her lice probes:

But I hardly would expect them to cover the whole city in any reasonable amount of time and find your team-- though they can cover an entire small battlefield before Alita falls to the ground during a fight, so they are actually pretty dang fast. Niftily enough, they are specifically designed to search out hidden stuff and mark it for Alita, so Kenji's little flesh bits would be scouted by Alita's tech and then she'd send out some missile bees to clean them up:

Not the hardest thing to counter, really.

I mean I can post a pretty simplified argument with my gear if you want. My team shares the Shard of Lightning at the start of the fight, allowing lightspeed perception and combat speed. Blink teleports my team to your team (identified the location with Phoenix TP) and my team slaughters yours in the Shard of Lightning duration.

#20 Posted by DireDrill (2433 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: Banked points can be spent during any round so can continue saving them if you choose.

Absolute Power makes your powers twice as effective so if they can teleport a person once every 2 minutes then they would be able to teleport 2 people once every minute.

T-Spheres have always been a means of creating T-Masks.

I do like how you are using my argument against Backflip though. I am curious to how you will respond to Dredeuced's counter.

Ultimate Nullifiers are a tech that are more powerful than Cosmic Cubes, it makes little sense that you could conjure something more powerful than a cosmic cube.

#21 Edited by Dextersinister (5674 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Normally I wouldn't say anything but I just happen to be using Kenji in another tournament. He is saying to a degree because at that point in time his theory has gone untested, the person they are going up against is a telepathic god child still in the womb who has possessed an entire hospital and then begins to draw thousands more in from the city, it's raw power is burning out the people it's using as protection as it fears being born. The child lost it's powers when it was born until it regains them when it hits puberty.

When he is more experienced he outright says that telepaths cannot enter which is how he was able to enslave Utopia over time despite being on an island with them and literally attached to one for months.

Online
#22 Edited by Dredeuced (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister said:

@dredeuced: Normally I wouldn't say anything but I just happen to be using Kenji in another tournament. He is saying to a degree because at that point in time his theory has gone untested, the person they are going up against is a telepathic god child still in the womb who has possessed an entire hospital and then begins to draw thousands more in from the city, it's raw power is burning out the people it's using as protection as it fears being born. The child lost it's powers when it was born until it regains them when it hits puberty.

When he is more experienced he outright says that telepaths cannot enter which is how he was able to enslave Utopia over time despite being on an island with them and literally attached to one for months.

And Professor Xavier couldn't do crap to P5 hosts. Phoenix Fragment Blink should be aware of his team as soon as the fight starts so it's irrelevant to me what his feats are, since his team doesn't come into the fight with the tendrils popped in the backs of their heads.

That said, this is TDLP's argument to make, not yours.

#23 Posted by DireDrill (2433 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: @dredeuced: Did a little bit of research into Kenji and it looks like he is technoorganic in nature. This makes him immune to telepathy in the same way that every other pure technoorganic being is. He isn't offering any real telepathic immunity, he is just assimilating them and turning them into drones like a Phalanx does.

#24 Posted by Dredeuced (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill: This does not stop my Blink from telepathically recognizing the other members of his team at the start of the fight, though. It's a moot point that doesn't affect my counter.

#25 Posted by DireDrill (2433 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: I wasn't really trying to make any real point just clarifying information. It is still up to you and DLP on how you use that information.

#26 Posted by Dextersinister (5674 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: @dredeuced: Did a little bit of research into Kenji and it looks like he is technoorganic in nature. This makes him immune to telepathy in the same way that every other pure technoorganic being is. He isn't offering any real telepathic immunity, he is just assimilating them and turning them into drones like a Phalanx does.

His nature isn't relevant to how he offers protection you can't just see a word and assume that's how it works, that's pretty shoddy research. He has much greater control over his own mind as it is spread through his entire body which allows him to alter his own though patterns. When a piece of him is in physical contact with someone else's mind he can alter that as well although that wouldn't be allowed in this tournament.

Online
#27 Posted by DireDrill (2433 posts) - - Show Bio

Techno-organic is techno-organic. He wouldn't have been given that classification if he didn't fit all the rules of techno-organics. Techno-organic beings like Warlock, or Bastion, or Magus, or Ultron, are immune to telepathy and can turn people into drones who are also immune to telepathy. Douglock, Bastion's human minions, Selene's resurrected mutants, Ultron's selects were all immune to telepathy and allowed for autonomy insofar as the main host allowed it.

#28 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced:

@diredrill

:

Since diredrill hasn't said I don't qualify for the perks and I'm satisfied that I qualify for them, that part of the debate is dropped. Also Diredrill I constantly use little bits of your tourney vs backflip as its basically the only instance of anyone using the Cosmic Ring.

Moving on.

Point 1 - T-Spheres

Well, you called my bluff. But you didn't successfully respond to the second point, that T-Spheres have to be able to find T-Masks. The same exact tech is used in both of them, the same sensors, etc, and Mr Terrific shows up in the T-Spheres scans. T-Spheres can find T-Masks, T-Masks can detect T-Spheres. But it seems like you already knew this as you planned the rest of your counter assuming that my T-Spheres would be spreading out.

Point 2 - Phoenix Force

As Diredrill has already said and @dextersinister kindly pointed out after I pointed the scan, Kenji is a techno-organic being, and, as I said, will make the rest of my team immune to telepathy or scanning and give them a techno-organic link. They will not show up in scans and cannot be scanned for as Kenji does like all the time, thus your Blink cannot find my team or my T-Spheres. But of course, Nemesis should already know this.

Point 3 - Blink vs Blink

So as we already have figured out, your Blink has no idea where my Blink is. My Blink, however, does.

Firstly, by the T-Spheres. The logic of this goes unrefuted except for your 'all bluster no claim' argument; they are the same tech and the T-Spheres regularly scan Mr. T. My T-Spheres will spread out relatively quickly, and considering there are 90 of them, will find you.

But, of course, at lightspeed, surely your team can cover the entire battlefield quicker, right?

Not so.

My ace in the hole here is the 'Absolute Power' perk; I get 5 shots of power doubling.

And guess what?

I intend to use all 5 shots on Blink, thus multiplying her teleport speed which is already, y'know, ridiculous, by 32. And guess what?

She happens to already have reactions and teleport speeds at, well, lightspeed. She's teleported Selene's army across the entire US multiple times, much larger than Attilan, so she can easily manage this. During Necrosha she had basically mastered teleporting, and teleported a bunch of cannon fodder to her at Selene's side to Selene could absorb them; she couldn't see them, but she teleported them to her because she knew where they were. The difference between AoA Blink and 616 Blink as far as I'm aware is that AoA Blink is an accomplished acrobatist; for the purposes of this, AoA Blink and 616 Blink would cancel each other out, if 616 Blink weren't 32 times faster.

For example, here: http://www.craveonline.com/comics/previews/176758-blink-returns-in-new-mutants-34 and here http://thepullbox.com/2011/11/19/pullbox-preview-new-mutants-35-the-hunt-for-blink/

She teleports lightning in order to destroy falling rocks and teleports someone out of the way of energy that previously none of the mutants could dodge, presumably because it was lightning or something to that effect. In New Mutants, she's basically become AoA's equal -acrobatic and with incredible reflexes. She teleports at about the same speed as AoA Blink, or close enough that you'll never be able to argue your team going at 'lightning-speed' will catch up to someone going at 32x lightning speed.

Oh, and by the way, lightning speed isn't light speed, it's significantly less.

Lightning actually goes at variable speeds, because it is not just light, but electron plasma moving through charged air. Its can depend on air conditions, but the typical lightning bolt moves at 224,000 mph -- or about 3,700 miles per second.

However, the light you see from the lightning obviously travels at the speed of light, which is roughly 670 million mph, or 186,000 miles per second.

Sooo unless you prove otherwise I'm going to have to assume that your 'shard of lightning' makes your characters move as fast as...well, lightning which is about 1/60th the speed of light. (yes, I did hear the character statement. character statements are biased. the jacks have never been able to do a ton of stuff before timing out) Blink already teleports far faster than that, redirecting tons of lightning in New Mutants, so that's hardly a win-all, and multiplying that reaction speed by 32 means she can easily teleport your characters away from each other or into my Cosmic Ring before they even have a chance.

(oh, and I could just create a small cold field barrier with my Cosmic Ring, stopping your entire team where I can pick them off)

But @diredrill does using the 5 power shots on Spidey affect the Cosmic Ring's powers? Can I use them at any time? Because I could just have Spidey absorb the Cosmic Ring powers like Thanos did and then go from there. Because if I can, then 15 x 2^5=480 foot radius of reality warping.

But even if I can't, I still get a 15 foot radius sphere, or roughly 706 square footage. Considering the average person takes up about 3 square feet being generous, 706-12 for my team gives me 694.

Well, unfortunately for you, as I get 5 minutes prep, I can stop time and create an army of Ragnaroks, Thor clone-robots which possess the exact same powers as Thor. Kind of like how Crusader created a bunch of Skrull women to lounge on him 24/7. How do I do this? Well, Peter Parker has already seen and observed for quite a while Ragnarok in the Civil War storyline, and Superior Spiderman has all his memories. Having had a month to practice, it should be simplicity in itself for the inventive genius to be able to create one, considering the Cosmic Ring often makes machinery that the user's mind cannot comprehend (case in point Freedom Ring making guns which he has no idea how they operate).

694/3 happens to be about 200.

That's right -200 Thor clones. Which you already agreed I could make.

If you'd like to debate about whether or not 200 Thor clones can beat your five, well, I can do that, but for the time being I'll just leave this here:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/109250/2339219-1608652-thor_vs_quicksilver_01_super.jpg

Faster than your team

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/109250/2339222-1627807-red_hulk_vs_thor_11_super.jpg

Faster than light

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/4844/chaoswarthor1007008.jpg

Shrugging off incredible bursts of energy.

While you may point out that the Phoenix Five bested Thor on numerous occasions, now there are 200 Thors against your one Phoenix Fragment Blink.

And even if that Phoenix Fragment Blink can beat 200 Thors, Dark Phoenix (all 5) was beaten by reality warping (Scarlet Witch), and guess what? I happen to have a reality-warping artifact!

Now on to your point about the Cosmic Ring having variable power: The shard that the Shaper of Worlds had and the shard that Freedom Ring had (i.e. the Cosmic Ring) as Kubik removed the shard that Shaper of Worlds had and cast it onto earth, where Freedom Ring found it. Kubik is basically the 'standard' Cosmic Cube, whereas Molecule Man lately is quite overboard though I don't keep track of those things. However, when I mean 'banished' I don't mean 'teleported away' I mean 'banished to another dimension never to return again ever because I got in the first blow'. After the Shaper of Worlds shuts down and the banish command resets, Kubik returns, and, striking first, beats the sliver of the Cosmic Cube.

THAT is how it went. The Cosmic Ring and Kubik, a Cosmic Cube, were equal in power -the Cosmic Ring simply had less area of effect.

Now for Phoenix Force vs Cosmic Cube:

Unfortunately, your main strength -mind-rape- is completely gone thanks to Kenji's techno-organic nature. Techno-organic beings have never been susceptible to telepathy, and that doesn't change for the Phoenix Force, it's a rule of continuity. Moreover

Here he is controlling the population of Utopia including Magneto with a very potent form of mind control that he was able to develop after studying Hopes effect on the brain, No-Girls brain which was literally inside his body, getting the idea after she used his powers to control Cyclops. (creds to Dex) Not saying this will do anything, but...just food for thought.

Thus, it's my universal reality warping, 200+ Thor clones with the same powers, and 32x the same speed of light vs your...oh, telekinesis?

Don't make me laugh, Blink can dodge Dark Phoenix's telekinetic blasts. She can just pick up Superior Spiderman and do the same as he reality-warps the hell out of her. Thor is massively ftl.

Now, as for my 'reality-warping' feats:

The Super Adaptoid vs Kubik battle tactic which I basically nabbed from Diredrill because I'm too much of a schmuck to read anything about Cosmic Cubes shows that the Cosmic Ring has the same power as a standard Cosmic Cube. Thus, extreme cases notwithstanding, I can use just about any Cosmic Cube feat.

*evil grin*

According to Mephisto, Cosmic Cube beings are actually less powerful than a Cosmic Cube in the right hands, because they have limitations. That's why they might say they're dust next to celestials or eternity, because they put limits on themselves. But when those limitations are taken away, well...

Kubik reality warped an entire universe away, so Spock can remove anything in my 760-odd square feet

Thanos used a Cosmic Cube to usurp Eternity's position and become an omnipotent, so Spock can control anything in my 760-odd square feet

Red Skull used a Cosmic Cube to cause an entire island to sink

A villageman who found it made himself rich beyond imagination just with a thought

Thanos absorbs the energies of the cube like I plan on Spock doing, becoming nigh-omnipotent

He also killed the Elders of the Universe

Red Skull uses it to blast apart mountains and/or people into mountains and/or make them see mirages and/or fire nukes at people

The Shaper of Worlds over time took out two-thirds of the Andromeda Galaxy and easily terraformed planets

Reed Richards took away the Power Cosmic from Doom, so Spock can take away all your powers as soon as Blink teleports them in or, god forbid, they actually try to attack me (though they wouldn't because Nemesis would know Spock would just think in the cold field)

Ringmaster (who had the ring) gives the heroes he's fighting (Spider Man and some other doofus) heart attacks, and then shoots them out of cannons.

Crusader made himself into a human and back again.

~ANYHOW TO SUM THINGS UP~

-200 Ragnaroks are created via time bubble and Spock having observed them. They can only function within the Cosmic Ring bubble, but that's alright. They are massively FTL and faster than all of dred's team, and dred's team has to come within the bubble to attack me. My team will be shielded within the bubble while dred's team is being constantly attacked by blasts of energy that destroy mountains and the like; there is also a cold field perimeter so Dred's team will be frozen in place if they attempt to enter

-Dred's team does not move at the speed of light, only at the speed of lightning which is 1/60 the speed of light roughly

-T-Spheres can get past T-Masks because they are the same exact tech and T-Spheres sense T-Mask'd Mr. Terrific ALL THE TIME. Add to this Kenji Uedo's flesh flies which he can create a huge quantity of and then send flying off to scout around thus letting Blink sense Dred's team

-5 Absolute Power Shots go either to Blink, making her 32x reflexes 32x faster 32x range etc or to Spock after he absorbs the Cosmic Ring as Thanos did, giving him 32x range so 480 radius omnipotency

-Phoenix Force Fragment is irrelevant due to Kenji Uedo's techno-organic nature and him implanting things in people's brains; Dred's Blink cannot scan or mentally influence my team and is left only with telekinetic beams which my (TDLP) Blink dodges all the time

And I'm ready for votes, BTW. (=

#29 Posted by DireDrill (2433 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium:

Not to put too much a damper on your plans, but 5 shots of MGH would kill pretty much anyone.

I also just indicated that Kenji was techno-organic how that information is used by both of you is up to you.

#30 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill: aw c'mon what

you could have said that when you made it a perk

Wait, is that your ruling or is that something that exists? 'cuz I don't recall MGH actually hurting people's systems...

okay so then the ruling thing alright.

#31 Edited by DireDrill (2433 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: I did go over that with Esquire. MGH is like adrenaline for humans, it will help you out but too much of it will overload your system. I thought it was indicated well enough in the Perk description that each of your team members get 1 shot.

#32 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill: You said '5 shots of MGH'

I thought 'x32 powers yay'

If you had meant each team member you prolly should have said 'each team member gets a shot'

Okay I'll leave it up to dredeuced to debate that MGH will kill them. But can Spock absorb the Cosmic Ring thus making him omnipotent in the 15-foot radius and then use all the MGH, nullifying the bad effect with his omnipotency?

#33 Posted by DireDrill (2433 posts) - - Show Bio
#34 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill: Choosing only genetically empowered people earns you 5 shots of MGH that will double the effectiveness of your powers.

The way most people would read it, a shot will double the effectiveness of your powers.

Anyhow, could you please desist with the 'technically's and just perhaps give me a straight 'yes' or 'no'?

#35 Posted by DireDrill (2433 posts) - - Show Bio
#36 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill: Balls.

Well that...makes things more difficult. So I just have a shot left over since I got 5 and I have 4 members? Or can I use that shot on Blink?

#37 Posted by DireDrill (2433 posts) - - Show Bio
#38 Edited by Dredeuced (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium:

Point 1 - T-Spheres

Well, you called my bluff. But you didn't successfully respond to the second point, that T-Spheres have to be able to find T-Masks. The same exact tech is used in both of them, the same sensors, etc, and Mr Terrific shows up in the T-Spheres scans. T-Spheres can find T-Masks, T-Masks can detect T-Spheres. But it seems like you already knew this as you planned the rest of your counter assuming that my T-Spheres would be spreading out

This isn't how it works, though. Terrific's T-spheres are on the same network and interact with each other. I believe it's safe to assume that our separate T-spheres are not all on the same network. There's no reason to believe that my team's invisibility to technology is overridden by your T-spheres when they've only shown basic technological scanning ability, considering we're not interfaced with each other. Maybe if you could hack my T-Spheres like Digitus did, but I don't believe anyone on your team is a good hacker (unlike mine).

I "assumed" your t-spheres would be spreading out because you said they are the things locating my team. It's not really assumption, it's an acknowledgement of your maneuver.

Point 2 - Phoenix Force

As Diredrill has already said and @dextersinister kindly pointed out after I pointed the scan, Kenji is a techno-organic being, and, as I said, will make the rest of my team immune to telepathy or scanning and give them a techno-organic link. They will not show up in scans and cannot be scanned for as Kenji does like all the time, thus your Blink cannot find my team or my T-Spheres. But of course, Nemesis should already know this.

I mean, if you really want to get technical with this, the Phoenix Fragment users don't have to use telepathy to know things. They're connected to an cosmic being with infinite knowledge. Blink can literally just ask the Phoenix for information that we don't have and it will be given:

So between Phoenix's wealth of knowledge and the Crystal Glasses precognition and knowledge of all your actions, I think it's quite safe to say my team would be aware of your starting position.

Nemesis wouldn't be the only one to know this, by the by. My team has full knowledge. It's not like you can surprise me with telepathy immunity, I was just skeptical of Kenji giving telepathy immunity of beings who can easily scan the mind of Charles Xavier as if he had no telepathic defenses of his own.

Point 3 - Blink vs Blink

So as we already have figured out, your Blink has no idea where my Blink is. My Blink, however, does.

I think you've got it reversed. Your argument with the T-Spheres doesn't make sense and the Phoenix Host has more tools than telepathy.

Firstly, by the T-Spheres. The logic of this goes unrefuted except for your 'all bluster no claim' argument; they are the same tech and the T-Spheres regularly scan Mr. T. My T-Spheres will spread out relatively quickly, and considering there are 90 of them, will find you.

It's bluster because you made stuff up and asserted it as fact. I suppose it's my duty to correct you on my own gear when the misinterpretations arise, though it's kind of sketchy when we both have a particular piece of gear.

T-Spheres don't regularly scan Mr. Terrific. They do his bidding because they're on the same network as his neural link. Your T-spheres are not on the same neural link as mine, that'd be nonsensical.

I don't see how they'd find me so easily, either. Large city and whatnot. My team instantly knows yours location and can teleport there before you T-spheres move out, anyhow.

But, of course, at lightspeed, surely your team can cover the entire battlefield quicker, right?

Not so.

My ace in the hole here is the 'Absolute Power' perk; I get 5 shots of power doubling.

And guess what?

I intend to use all 5 shots on Blink, thus multiplying her teleport speed which is already, y'know, ridiculous, by 32. And guess what?

She happens to already have reactions and teleport speeds at, well, lightspeed. She's teleported Selene's army across the entire US multiple times, much larger than Attilan, so she can easily manage this. During Necrosha she had basically mastered teleporting, and teleported a bunch of cannon fodder to her at Selene's side to Selene could absorb them; she couldn't see them, but she teleported them to her because she knew where they were. The difference between AoA Blink and 616 Blink as far as I'm aware is that AoA Blink is an accomplished acrobatist; for the purposes of this, AoA Blink and 616 Blink would cancel each other out, if 616 Blink weren't 32 times faster.

You are dodging my argument and misrepresenting it at the same time. I did not say my team runs across the battlefield at light speed. I said my team uses the shard of lightning to increase their perceptions to lightspeed, then uses Blink's/The Phoenix's teleportation to teleport to your team and kill them before the shard of lightning duration has ended. The shard of lightning only works for brief flashes so it'd fade before my team could cover the whole battlefield on foot, anyhow. But they can enact this plan faster than your T-spheres can cover the entire city to find my team -- which in and of itself doesn't make sense because my team would be invisible to their tech.

I don't even care that you can't shoot 5 shots of genetics juice into Blink -- teleporting is teleporting. Blink's teleporting has always been instantaneous to the location, there's no travel time to be increased. This is bloviation.

She teleports lightning in order to destroy falling rocks and teleports someone out of the way of energy that previously none of the mutants could dodge, presumably because it was lightning or something to that effect. In New Mutants, she's basically become AoA's equal -acrobatic and with incredible reflexes. She teleports at about the same speed as AoA Blink, or close enough that you'll never be able to argue your team going at 'lightning-speed' will catch up to someone going at 32x lightning speed.

These are incorrect claims. Nothing there really puts her on par with AoA Blink's skills in hand to hand. Not that it matters because Phoenix Fragment Blink won't be fighting her hand to hand anyhow.

Oh, and by the way, lightning speed isn't light speed, it's significantly less.

Lightning actually goes at variable speeds, because it is not just light, but electron plasma moving through charged air. Its can depend on air conditions, but the typical lightning bolt moves at 224,000 mph -- or about 3,700 miles per second.

However, the light you see from the lightning obviously travels at the speed of light, which is roughly 670 million mph, or 186,000 miles per second.

Sooo unless you prove otherwise I'm going to have to assume that your 'shard of lightning' makes your characters move as fast as...well, lightning which is about 1/60th the speed of light. (yes, I did hear the character statement. character statements are biased. the jacks have never been able to do a ton of stuff before timing out) Blink already teleports far faster than that, redirecting tons of lightning in New Mutants, so that's hardly a win-all, and multiplying that reaction speed by 32 means she can easily teleport your characters away from each other or into my Cosmic Ring before they even have a chance.

I'm assuming you didn't watch my videos, then. The Shard of Lightning is not named as such because it allows you to move at the speed of lightning. It is named the Shard of Lightning because it allows you to move at the speed of light -- but this effect only lasts for as long is it takes a lightning bolt to strike, thus only allowing brief spurts of light speed. It is specifically stated to allow the user to move at lightspeed. You should not be misrepresenting my statements or my items abilities if you didn't go to the trouble of watching a 22 second video I posted for your benefit to understand how it works. Jack didn't state anything, by the way, he merely used the tool itself. Master Fung did. Master Fung gets his information from, well, the scrolls that identify the Shen Gong Wu and what they do. He's literally never been wrong before.

Teleportation is not combat speed. Being able to teleport faster than light does not give you faster than light reflexes or combat speed, which the shard of lightning allows my team. This is, once again, pure nonsense. Your T-Spheres also could not reach my team faster than they could use the shard of lightning and teleport to your team.

But even if I can't, I still get a 15 foot radius sphere, or roughly 706 square footage. Considering the average person takes up about 3 square feet being generous, 706-12 for my team gives me 694.

Well, unfortunately for you, as I get 5 minutes prep, I can stop time and create an army of Ragnaroks, Thor clone-robots which possess the exact same powers as Thor. Kind of like how Crusader created a bunch of Skrull women to lounge on him 24/7. How do I do this? Well, Peter Parker has already seen and observed for quite a while Ragnarok in the Civil War storyline, and Superior Spiderman has all his memories. Having had a month to practice, it should be simplicity in itself for the inventive genius to be able to create one, considering the Cosmic Ring often makes machinery that the user's mind cannot comprehend (case in point Freedom Ring making guns which he has no idea how they operate).

694/3 happens to be about 200.

That's right -200 Thor clones. Which you already agreed I could make.

If you'd like to debate about whether or not 200 Thor clones can beat your five, well, I can do that, but for the time being I'll just leave this here:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/109250/2339219-1608652-thor_vs_quicksilver_01_super.jpg

Faster than your team

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/109250/2339222-1627807-red_hulk_vs_thor_11_super.jpg

Faster than light

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/4844/chaoswarthor1007008.jpg

Shrugging off incredible bursts of energy.

While you may point out that the Phoenix Five bested Thor on numerous occasions, now there are 200 Thors against your one Phoenix Fragment Blink.

For one, quicksilver isn't faster than most of my team thanks to Quantum Bands, Phoenix Fragment, Amazonian Armory (Sandals of Hermes > Quicksilver) and the Rabbit Talisman (which can boost things that are already supersonic higher, as shown when it increased the speed of a space ship significantly). Also, Thor, nor any clones of Thor, are capable of lightspeed combat speed. Thor's much more consistent showings are hypersonic reaction speeds (sometimes slower) with lightspeed TRAVEL speed, and only with Mjolnir.

Next, oh boy. You're going to use tech against me. I love tech. You know why I love tech?

While most of my team guts your team while they're frozen in time relative to mine thanks to the shard, Zazie will shoot every one of your Thor bots with Berserker rounds. This turns any tech into a living, mindless crazy killing machine and greatly amps its speed and destructive power.

Thankfully, she comes equipped with ammo that instakills berserker tech:

Good luck blowing all your prep on making autonomous machines. Your machines, thankfully, are not the beneficiaries of full knowledge and would quite reasonably tank what appears to be normal bullets. With your team dead during the Shard of lightning duration, these guys are easy cleanup. Though the math seems to be cleaned up with Diredrill's response to your perk usage, I'd like to say that, frankly, using machines isn't the greatest plan vs a Phoenix user:

Not to mention that Zealot has the Kusar blades and Nemesis has the Creation Blades, which would carve through all your robots.

I'd also like to touch on this:

Well, Peter Parker has already seen and observed for quite a while Ragnarok in the Civil War storyline, and Superior Spiderman has all his memories.

Not anymore. Doc Ock erased all of Peter's memories from his mind recently. He did it because Peter's latent feelings and emotions were interfering with his work. I could scan Superior Spider-Man #10 if you want me to prove it.

Oh, one final enormous nail in the coffin for this strategy, my team has T-masks. Making a giant army of robots would result in you having a giant army of guys who can't sense my team in any way. So, like I said, once my team is done gutting yours the robots will by child's play for a plethora of reasons.

Now on to your point about the Cosmic Ring having variable power: The shard that the Shaper of Worlds had and the shard that Freedom Ring had (i.e. the Cosmic Ring) as Kubik removed the shard that Shaper of Worlds had and cast it onto earth, where Freedom Ring found it. Kubik is basically the 'standard' Cosmic Cube, whereas Molecule Man lately is quite overboard though I don't keep track of those things. However, when I mean 'banished' I don't mean 'teleported away' I mean 'banished to another dimension never to return again ever because I got in the first blow'. After the Shaper of Worlds shuts down and the banish command resets, Kubik returns, and, striking first, beats the sliver of the Cosmic Cube.

THAT is how it went. The Cosmic Ring and Kubik, a Cosmic Cube, were equal in power -the Cosmic Ring simply had less area of effect.

My point was that you don't get to use every single Cosmic Cube feat that's ever happened because a Ring user beat Kubik. Kubik's own feats and abilities pale in comparison to feats of literally dozens of other Cosmic Cube users and beings. If you truly were as powerful as any cosmic cube being then you could just create Galactus with the ring (like how Peter did with the Beyonder's powers) and it'd be one sided. You can't actually do this because it's outside the realm of the Ring's abilities. Warping reality in a 15 foot radius is also rather moot as you still haven't demonstrated Blink being able to teleport people she can't see.

Unfortunately, your main strength -mind-rape- is completely gone thanks to Kenji's techno-organic nature. Techno-organic beings have never been susceptible to telepathy, and that doesn't change for the Phoenix Force, it's a rule of continuity. Moreover

Erm, I'd say my main strength of the Fragment is having someone who can handwave Thor away like a child, unbridled telekinesis, practical invulnerability to most forms of damage, extreme energy projection, unbridled knowledge, and, yes, world level telepathy.

That said, I will concede that Telepathy will not work on your team just to move this along faster. We've got too many dangling points and it's not particularly relevant.

Thus, it's my universal reality warping, 200+ Thor clones with the same powers, and 32x the same speed of light vs your...oh, telekinesis?

Don't make me laugh, Blink can dodge Dark Phoenix's telekinetic blasts.

This is AoA Blink. From Exiles #4. Sorry, you don't get to use my character's feats for your character. Not to mention A: Dark Phoenix was taking her lightly B: has different feats than the Phoenix Five and C: Has never demonstrated lightspeed combat speed, such as my team.

Thor is massively ftl.

Mjolnir is massively FTL. In travel speed. Thor has never had anything resembling lightspeed combat speed. You are making the chronic mistake of equalizing travel speed with operational speed, and they are vastly different.

The Super Adaptoid vs Kubik battle tactic which I basically nabbed from Diredrill because I'm too much of a schmuck to read anything about Cosmic Cubes shows that the Cosmic Ring has the same power as a standard Cosmic Cube. Thus, extreme cases notwithstanding, I can use just about any Cosmic Cube feat.

No, you can't. If you could use any cosmic cube feat then you could use Molecule Man and Beyonder's feats, in which case I'd spit on the point counting system. I don't really care if you took your ideas from someone else, that doesn't make your points or statements valid. It doesn't help that you don't seem to have actually read the issues referenced or the context behind them for your argument, though.

According to Mephisto, Cosmic Cube beings are actually less powerful than a Cosmic Cube in the right hands, because they have limitations.

Mephisto's an idiot, then. Peter Parker warped the entire universe to his whim in a microsecond when he had Beyonder's powers. Let's not even get into Owen Reece's accomplishments. Sorry to say, you are not allowed to do as much.

ubik reality warped an entire universe away, so Spock can remove anything in my 760-odd square feet

Thanos used a Cosmic Cube to usurp Eternity's position and become an omnipotent, so Spock can control anything in my 760-odd square feet

Red Skull used a Cosmic Cube to cause an entire island to sink

A villageman who found it made himself rich beyond imagination just with a thought

Thanos absorbs the energies of the cube like I plan on Spock doing, becoming nigh-omnipotent

He also killed the Elders of the Universe

Red Skull uses it to blast apart mountains and/or people into mountains and/or make them see mirages and/or fire nukes at people

The Shaper of Worlds over time took out two-thirds of the Andromeda Galaxy and easily terraformed planets

Reed Richards took away the Power Cosmic from Doom, so Spock can take away all your powers as soon as Blink teleports them in or, god forbid, they actually try to attack me (though they wouldn't because Nemesis would know Spock would just think in the cold field)

Ringmaster (who had the ring) gives the heroes he's fighting (Spider Man and some other doofus) heart attacks, and then shoots them out of cannons.

Crusader made himself into a human and back again.

You can't do all of these things, though. You are specifically limited by the radius. Not to mention that there's absolutely no reason a drug would allow you to increase the powers of a device when it's designed to enhance genetic powers. I feel like you're pulling massive reach with all of this stuff and practically none of it makes sense.

~ANYHOW TO SUM THINGS UP~

I probably should've just skipped to this part, but I'm a glutton for big posts.

-200 Ragnaroks are created via time bubble and Spock having observed them. They can only function within the Cosmic Ring bubble, but that's alright. They are massively FTL and faster than all of dred's team, and dred's team has to come within the bubble to attack me. My team will be shielded within the bubble while dred's team is being constantly attacked by blasts of energy that destroy mountains and the like; there is also a cold field perimeter so Dred's team will be frozen in place if they attempt to enter

Most of this has all been addressed but, hell, one more time for fun. Machines can't see my team. Thor is not massively FTL in combat speed and never has been, nor are robots that are meant to be clones of him. Spock doesn't have Peter's memories anymore. Your team doesn't have light speed reactions. My team is aware of the cold field (full knowledge + crystal glasses) and could kill its user with Phoenix Telekinesis. That said, Cold's cold field has been circumvented by someone who was moving fast enough plenty of times (the Flash) -- and Flash doesn't need to move at lightspeed to do so, so my team would be able to bust through it anyhow.

-Dred's team does not move at the speed of light, only at the speed of lightning which is 1/60 the speed of light roughly

It was a 22 second video, man. I wasn't asking much.

-T-Spheres can get past T-Masks because they are the same exact tech and T-Spheres sense T-Mask'd Mr. Terrific ALL THE TIME. Add to this Kenji Uedo's flesh flies which he can create a huge quantity of and then send flying off to scout around thus letting Blink sense Dred's team

Countered the flesh flies, countered the t-sphere thing.

-5 Absolute Power Shots go either to Blink, making her 32x reflexes 32x faster 32x range etc or to Spock after he absorbs the Cosmic Ring as Thanos did, giving him 32x range so 480 radius omnipotency

I seriously have no idea how you came to the conclusion that a drug would increase the power of a cosmic artifact. What did you do, inject MGH into a ring? The hell?

-Phoenix Force Fragment is irrelevant due to Kenji Uedo's techno-organic nature and him implanting things in people's brains; Dred's Blink cannot scan or mentally influence my team and is left only with telekinetic beams which my (TDLP) Blink dodges all the time

You have, to quite a great degree, lowballed something that costs 2 more points than your beloved Cosmic Ring. Its versatility is much greater than you give it credit for and a user of the Phoenix power doesn't NEED telepathy to know things. "Telekinetic Beams" aren't even a thing the Phoenix Five have ever used -- their telekinesis has always been invisible and instantaneous and you used feats from MY Blink's run in Exiles, not yours.

You've still completely failed to show your Blink being able to teleport people she can't see. If she could do this, why does she throw her teledaggers in the link you posted? For those who've forgotten, here's his link:

Fifth picture

You know why? Because she can't. No version of Blink can. It's a strategy that makes no sense and has deep, multi-layered flaws from start to finish. You've both misrepresented your team's combat speed by equating travel speed and teleportation to legitimate lightspeed operational speed and misrepresented your perks, powers, and gear as well as mine. I'm unsatisfied with your counter to Shard of Lightning + Teleport butchery. I'm confused by your use of the MGH, which itself makes little to no sense. I'm curious about your ignoring of my team's clear precognition from the Crystal Glasses, and I'm incredulous to your observation of the T-spheres. You make these boisterous claims about Mr. Terrific and how his T-spheres work despite the fact that you admitted to lying about how they work in the first place to discredit me, playing it off as me calling your "bluff." Well I've called your bluff again.

And I'm ready for votes, BTW. (=

Go for it. I believe we're both voters, so we either recuse ourselves from voting or just say we vote for ourselves and let the other 3 play tiebreaker. It's quite fortuitous that we matched up while both being judges. I leave it in the hands of @diredrill @esquire and @jokergeist unless you want to amend some things in the debate. I'm quite content with the way things turned out.

#39 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced:

Here's my ending post. And I believe dex is a voter, as he voted previously. But anyhow.

1) T-Spheres

Mostly irrelevant so I'm not going to touch on this much, but you seem to be mis-understanding a basic rule of technology. As in, 'there is no reason for technology that is exactly the same to be superior to itself'. Though I've only dabbled in nanotech so far, I do understand that most of our morphing capabilities (like T-Sphere to T-Mask) in the field have much the same limits. There is no way that the T-Mask could be superior than the T-Sphere when they are made of the same exact stuff. But again it's irrelevant.

2) AoA Blink finding my team

Your Phoenix feat literally just looks like someone finding info about someone, which both of us have due to the Full Knowledge Perk. So I'm going to disregard this as the Phoenix isn't omniscient.

3) Shard of Lightning

Edited my post after watching the episode of Xaolin Showdown with the Shard of Lightning in it, mate.

4) Ragnaroks vs Your Team

I like how you attempt to discredit my 'Thor is faster than light' feats by saying 'Thor isn't faster than light'. That's totally going to fly.

More Thor FTL feats:

Now we all know Thor has stopped bullets and energy beams by spinning Mjolnir around. (btw as for your berserker bullets:

Here, with FTB speed, he deflects two bullets with a single swing way back in

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...ed03aJIM100.jpg

Here, he blocks a single bullet with the head of Mjolnir before whirling it to create a field in

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rspeed13246.jpg)

And it's been argued that he has to do that because he's not fast enough to block them traditionally with Mjolnir or bat them away. After all, he'd require faster than bullet ("FTB") and faster than light ("FTL") combat speed reflexes to do so. However, these next scans should dispel ANY doubt whether he does possess FTB or FTL combat speed reflexes since he deflects bullets and energy blasts by moving or swinging Mjolnir once rather than by spinning Mjolnir.

As for FTL reactions that can be measured in nanoseconds (light travels one foot per nanosecond), he's swung and swatted away Blastaar's energy blasts in

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rspeed15270.jpg

Far from a one-off FTL feat, he does the same to Mole Man's energy blaster shot in

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...wo-In-One96.jpg

Here, Enchantress shoots a blast at Captain America and Thor reacts with FTL speed to cut off the energy blast in mid-flight, from

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...eed17bMCP44.jpg

Phoenix shoots a telepathic blast at a groggy Thor at the moment Thor's arms are at his side. AFTER the shot is fired and already traveling at him, Thor raises his arms and reflects it back with Mjolnir. Telepathy being instantaneous traditionally (as noted in the narration), we can assume for the sake of argument that it was only traveling at light-speed, making this another FTL feat, from

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rspeed18428.jpg

Anyhow, as the Ragnaroks are FTL and faster than your team, they could just move around until they bump into your team and then proceed to pummel the existence out of them.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength24281.jpg

Here, he simply flexes and breaks apart an Olympian metal harness

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...Avengers282.jpg

And with seemingly less effort, he flexes and snaps adamantium alloy cables like they were nothing

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength28309.jpg

Does this look familiar? Twenty years later, Thor literally re-performs his feat of lifting a metal railway and sustaining the weight of a passing train as it races by

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength30319.jpg

Onto pure pushing and lifting feats. Early on, Thor pushes over the Leaning Tower of Pisa with his finger

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rStrength07.jpg

And large numbers already are quantified as Thor leg presses millions of tons of rock onto the Destroyer

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...gth12JIM119.jpg

After the villain, Graviton, finds his powers uncontrollable, he compresses an entire floating city into a sphere, and Thor, along with several other Avengers, find themselves supporting and then heaving millions of tons of weight into the Atlantic

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...Avengers159.jpg

Thor tows the small island, Hydrobase, into New York harbor

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...Avengers301.jpg

Thor closes a chasm of a "million tons of earth" over Loki, from

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...tAvengers55.jpg

Here Thor crushes a force-field of the Power Cosmic (amped by Loki's power) that keeps him from Mjolnir

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...ength15SS04.jpg

Thor's punching power is also legendary. The narrator quantifies it as being able to shatter a small mountain

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...gth09JIM108.jpg

Here, Thor destroys another of Silver Surfer's force-fields with a single strike

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rStrength16.jpg

Indeed, his punch is so powerful that combined with a punch of equal strength, it is capable of actually closing dimensional rifts

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...Avengers100.jpg

Thor's able to one-shot top-tier foes like Namor (in the driving rain) with his punches

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...3Invaders33.jpg

He's also one-shotted classic Abomination with a single blow

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength17178.jpg

And enchanted inanimate objects like a colossal faerie door have been felled by a single punch

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength34347.jpg

As for pure collateral damage, a single punch met with the same force has leveled a countryside

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength33338.jpg

And with repeated blows? Thor and Red Norvell literally wreck Asgard with their fist-fight and almost deafen Heimdall

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength41476.jpg

Thor's strength is recognized by many of the powerhouses in Marvel. Wonderman concedes that Thor has superior strength

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...Avengers181.jpg

Adam Warlock acknowledges that Thor is one of the "physically most powerful beings in the universe,"

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...nityWatch23.jpg

And apparently, this isn't hyperbole. Here, Thor literally matches a Savage Hulk's strength in a grappling contest for an entire hour

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...Defenders10.jpg

His stamina allows him to fight Mephisto's Lost Legion for hours on end

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...tamina01205.jpg

Here, he stalemates immortal Hercules in a contest of arm-wrestling (hercules lifts a million tons)

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength21222.jpg

Thor resists a force "as though half a planet" were bearing down on him

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength14140.jpg

Thor resists the gravimetric pull akin to "that of a neutron star" and busts out

Not that hard since they have like 200 of them and your team has to touch one in order to attack my team.

Oh, and guess what? Ragnarok's not even fully a cyborg; he also is half-Asgardian, and thus even if you somehow prove that you can get past 200 Ragnaroks (800 now actually that my MGH shot factored in) who move faster than you and just have to touch you to kill you, he can still see with eyes composed of DNA, which T-Masks do nothing to. So, uh, checkmate there!

Now for the Cosmic Cube part, which you countered terribly:

1) Your main response was 'you can't use molecule man or beyonder stuff', none of which I posted or am using because I know they're all weird

2) I literally said 'within a radius' for every single one of those omnipotency things

3) You clearly didn't read the part where I said 'Parker absorbs the Cosmic Ring like Thanos Did'. Then MGH...doubles his powers. Though that's not really necessary considering he's omnipotent in a 15-square-foot radius and you have to physically beat him.

4) Half your argument is 'the phoenix fragment costs more'. Because of two reasons; it has telepathy which is now nothing and it has a larger range which is also now...nothing. Your Phoenix Fragment is 1/5 of the Phoenix Force against my Cosmic Cube power in a 30-foot radius (never countered the super adaptoid arg beyond bringing in molecule man, and then conceded it); it's like putting the Phoenix Force against 5 Cosmic Cubes. Oh wait -Magus! Magus' feats with the 5 cosmic cubes faaar outweigh the Phoenix Force's feats; he was on par with the IG and created his own UNIVERSE. Thus Cosmic Ring outweighs Phoenix Fragment.

~Final Conclusion Post~

~Combat~

Ragnaroks are half-Asgardian and can see your team as soon as they are ported in/port in. Either that or they'll just wave their arms around until they hit one of your team-mates when they are slowed through the cold field (they'll have to go through it due to me putting up an anti-teleport zone) as even the Flash is slowed going through it. The bullet thing relies on them not blocking it which is idiotic. I posted many scans of Thor having FTL reactions and proved how that wasn't related to Mjolnir. Your 5 minutes of prep are not going to let Nemesis give you an entire map of how each Ragnarok is going to move, that's ridiculous. Blink has reacted to lightning and other lightspeed energy attacks many times before, and her doubled speed puts her above your lightspeed team (scans from New Mutant). I have no idea what exactly the tele-daggers are as they never actually come into play in the rest of the series where Blink portals lightning and energy attacks, as per the scans, tons of time. As for her teleporting people she can't see, she does this at the end of Necrosha where she teleports the zombie army to her side for Selene to absorb. (as for Spock erasing Peter, we all know Ghost Parker's going to come back. it's an ongoing character struggle and pretty much the focus of the series, and if he erased all of Parker's memories there would be some inconsistencies such as not knowing how to use some of the tech. he mostly erased Parker's personality as far as I could tell though I was never that clear on the whole thing. Say it was a month ago, when that didn't happen, when Spock started training with the Cosmic Ring, and he knows about Ragnarok. Say it's a month from now, and the character struggle will go on and Spock will probably get Peter's memories back.)

~Cosmic Cube vs Phoenix Fragment~

Your argument to this was 'you can't use this because of the radius' and 'molecule man and beyonder are out' despite me not using feats from molecule man or beyonder and me factoring in the radius. Even though Diredrill already said the shot would work on the Radius due to Parker absorbing it and then using the shot, you basically just said 'I don't think you can do this'. Other than that, the Cosmic Cube feats clearly outweigh your telekinetic feats of the Phoenix Fragment, which you haven't actually posted any of and now it's the end of the flipping debate.

@esquire @diredrill @dextersinister @jokergeist Ready for votes.

#40 Edited by Dredeuced (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium:

1) T-Spheres

Mostly irrelevant so I'm not going to touch on this much, but you seem to be mis-understanding a basic rule of technology. As in, 'there is no reason for technology that is exactly the same to be superior to itself'. Though I've only dabbled in nanotech so far, I do understand that most of our morphing capabilities (like T-Sphere to T-Mask) in the field have much the same limits. There is no way that the T-Mask could be superior than the T-Sphere when they are made of the same exact stuff. But again it's irrelevant.

My technology is not superior to yours. There's just no proof or reasoning that Holt has equipped his T-spheres with scanning measures that can get around his invisibility to technology -- and I'm not sure why he'd ever need to since he's the only one with said ability. The T-spheres have only ever shown standard mechanical scanning tools. It's not irrelevant because your entire strategy starts off with "My T-spheres find your team and then," It's actually incredibly relevant if the first brick in your house crumbles.

2) AoA Blink finding my team

Your Phoenix feat literally just looks like someone finding info about someone, which both of us have due to the Full Knowledge Perk. So I'm going to disregard this as the Phoenix isn't omniscient.

Do you need context behind this? Sinister put an idea in hope's head, causing her to doubt. The Phoenix Five sussed out the information without using telepathy by merely asking the cosmic entity. While it's not omniscient, it's hardly as if where your team is located in a city is cosmically guarded knowledge.

Feel free to disregard it, it's not an actual counter.

3) Shard of Lightning

Edited my post after watching the episode of Xaolin Showdown with the Shard of Lightning in it, mate.

There were five hours inbetween our posts. I should not be obligated to reread your original post after I make my argument. Everything I addressed was directly in your post and editting it out at some indeterminant point doesn't change the issue.

4) Ragnaroks vs Your Team

I like how you attempt to discredit my 'Thor is faster than light' feats by saying 'Thor isn't faster than light'. That's totally going to fly.

Of course I'm discrediting Thor being faster than light in combat speed. He's not. The dude struggles to keep up with street levelers a lot of the time. Mjolnir is, but he is not.

More Thor FTL feats:

Now we all know Thor has stopped bullets and energy beams by spinning Mjolnir around. (btw as for your berserker bullets:

If your robot hits the berserker bullet (not sure how with you all frozen in time relative to my team) then they'd still infect you. They assimilate whatever they hit.

Here, with FTB speed, he deflects two bullets with a single swing way back in

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...ed03aJIM100.jpg

Irrelevant vs lightspeed, which my team is moving at.

Here, he blocks a single bullet with the head of Mjolnir before whirling it to create a field in

Again, irrelevant. Street levelers can do this. As a matter of fact, everyone on my team except Blink can do this casually WITHOUT gear. That doesn't mean they can stop someone who's shooting bullets while they're moving at lightspeed.

And it's been argued that he has to do that because he's not fast enough to block them traditionally with Mjolnir or bat them away. After all, he'd require faster than bullet ("FTB") and faster than light ("FTL") combat speed reflexes to do so. However, these next scans should dispel ANY doubt whether he does possess FTB or FTL combat speed reflexes since he deflects bullets and energy blasts by moving or swinging Mjolnir once rather than by spinning Mjolnir.

I have never contested that Thor can hit bullets. I even specifically said he's usually hypersonic in reaction unless he's brawling. I will contest faster than light, though, to my dying breath. Thor's a freaking lumox. PS: Swinging Mjolnir faster than light does not give him faster than light reactions. Mjolnir is obviously faster than light, I pointed out as much.

As for FTL reactions that can be measured in nanoseconds (light travels one foot per nanosecond), he's swung and swatted away Blastaar's energy blasts in

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rspeed15270.jpg

Far from a one-off FTL feat, he does the same to Mole Man's energy blaster shot in

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...wo-In-One96.jpg

Here, Enchantress shoots a blast at Captain America and Thor reacts with FTL speed to cut off the energy blast in mid-flight, from

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...eed17bMCP44.jpg

Phoenix shoots a telepathic blast at a groggy Thor at the moment Thor's arms are at his side. AFTER the shot is fired and already traveling at him, Thor raises his arms and reflects it back with Mjolnir. Telepathy being instantaneous traditionally (as noted in the narration), we can assume for the sake of argument that it was only traveling at light-speed, making this another FTL feat, from

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rspeed18428.jpg

So, is anything that's depicted as an energy blast faster than light? Because anyone who's ever dodged a blaster or blocked one has FTL Speeds, then. Captain America's blocked more energy blasts with his shield than I can count. Characters on my team have dodged energy blasts. That doesn't give them FTL reaction speed and most certainly not ftl combat speed. Quicksilver specifically is faster than Thor in combat speed and he's only hypersonic -- thor can get around this with AOE attacks, but scale this up 872,000 times and I'd say there's difficulty.

If you want, I can post Thor getting blitzed by 10 different street levelers, from captain america to Mongoose. If it's up to the voters to decide if Thor is FTL then I'm fairly confident that I'll win out in this debate because it's a laughable claim.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength24281.jpg

Here, he simply flexes and breaks apart an Olympian metal harness

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...Avengers282.jpg

And with seemingly less effort, he flexes and snaps adamantium alloy cables like they were nothing

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength28309.jpg

Does this look familiar? Twenty years later, Thor literally re-performs his feat of lifting a metal railway and sustaining the weight of a passing train as it races by

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength30319.jpg

Onto pure pushing and lifting feats. Early on, Thor pushes over the Leaning Tower of Pisa with his finger

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rStrength07.jpg

And large numbers already are quantified as Thor leg presses millions of tons of rock onto the Destroyer

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...gth12JIM119.jpg

After the villain, Graviton, finds his powers uncontrollable, he compresses an entire floating city into a sphere, and Thor, along with several other Avengers, find themselves supporting and then heaving millions of tons of weight into the Atlantic

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...Avengers159.jpg

Thor tows the small island, Hydrobase, into New York harbor

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...Avengers301.jpg

Thor closes a chasm of a "million tons of earth" over Loki, from

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...tAvengers55.jpg

Here Thor crushes a force-field of the Power Cosmic (amped by Loki's power) that keeps him from Mjolnir

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...ength15SS04.jpg

Thor's punching power is also legendary. The narrator quantifies it as being able to shatter a small mountain

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...gth09JIM108.jpg

Here, Thor destroys another of Silver Surfer's force-fields with a single strike

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rStrength16.jpg

Indeed, his punch is so powerful that combined with a punch of equal strength, it is capable of actually closing dimensional rifts

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...Avengers100.jpg

Thor's able to one-shot top-tier foes like Namor (in the driving rain) with his punches

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...3Invaders33.jpg

He's also one-shotted classic Abomination with a single blow

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength17178.jpg

And enchanted inanimate objects like a colossal faerie door have been felled by a single punch

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength34347.jpg

As for pure collateral damage, a single punch met with the same force has leveled a countryside

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength33338.jpg

And with repeated blows? Thor and Red Norvell literally wreck Asgard with their fist-fight and almost deafen Heimdall

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength41476.jpg

Thor's strength is recognized by many of the powerhouses in Marvel. Wonderman concedes that Thor has superior strength

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...Avengers181.jpg

Adam Warlock acknowledges that Thor is one of the "physically most powerful beings in the universe,"

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...nityWatch23.jpg

And apparently, this isn't hyperbole. Here, Thor literally matches a Savage Hulk's strength in a grappling contest for an entire hour

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...Defenders10.jpg

His stamina allows him to fight Mephisto's Lost Legion for hours on end

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...tamina01205.jpg

Here, he stalemates immortal Hercules in a contest of arm-wrestling (hercules lifts a million tons)

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength21222.jpg

Thor resists a force "as though half a planet" were bearing down on him

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength14140.jpg

Thor resists the gravimetric pull akin to "that of a neutron star" and busts out

Ah, good, a scan dump. A weak debate tactic where you just say "look at what my character can do!" without applying any of the feats to a fight.

As great as Thor is, he is helpless against anyone with a Phoenix Fragment.

I need not point out the plethora of other times he was manhandled by anyone on the P5. They'd be telekinetically neutralized and teleported away by Blink at will, considering they'd struggle to even harm her. Nemesis can use the Quantum Bands to straight drain them (Quasar has done such to Beta Ray Bill before). There's no reason the berserker cells wouldn't work on them, especially considering you're outright stating they're going to try to hit the bullets -- the worst possible tactic.

I'd also like to point out that the things you're making aren't actually equivalent to Thor. I don't believe they ever came equipped with Skyfather level artifacts, did they?

Oh, and guess what? Ragnarok's not even fully a cyborg; he also is half-Asgardian, and thus even if you somehow prove that you can get past 200 Ragnaroks (800 now actually that my MGH shot factored in) who move faster than you and just have to touch you to kill you, he can still see with eyes composed of DNA, which T-Masks do nothing to. So, uh, checkmate there!

You are the one who called them robots. Proof that their eyes aren't robotic? Not that it'd matter considering they're frozen in time but, hell, I'll be generous and let you atleast try to justify your argument.

Now for the Cosmic Cube part, which you countered terribly:

1) Your main response was 'you can't use molecule man or beyonder stuff', none of which I posted or am using because I know they're all weird

"they're weird" is not a counter argument. What one being does with the power of a cosmic cube is not the implications for what any other being can do. The many different cosmic cube users and beings prove this. You said you can use any and every cosmic cube feat -- you posted Thanos supplanting Eternity. While this is probably just you parading a useless scan to try to impress, it's not relevant. Almost all of these feats of yours involved someone affecting things on a grander scale than what the Cosmic Ring can do.

2) I literally said 'within a radius' for every single one of those omnipotency things

It's not actual omnipotency and you've attempted to cheese the radius ridiculously, which brings us to:

3) You clearly didn't read the part where I said 'Parker absorbs the Cosmic Ring like Thanos Did'. Then MGH...doubles his powers. Though that's not really necessary considering he's omnipotent in a 15-square-foot radius and you have to physically beat him.

I did read it. Now let me reiterate myself. The Cosmic Ring is not a genetic power. It is not something thats power can be increased by injecting a hormone into one's system. What you're saying makes absolutely no sense. It is literally a cosmic device, you can't take a shot from a human made drug to double it's power. It's beyond asinine.

4) Half your argument is 'the phoenix fragment costs more'. Because of two reasons; it has telepathy which is now nothing and it has a larger range which is also now...nothing.

I don't see how not being limited to a 15 foot radius isn't a massive advantage. I would like to ask @diredrill if it's allowable that you can use a freaking synthesized drug to double the power of a cosmic artifact. I think it's flat out insane but if you want to contest this as much as possible, let the tourney runner decide.

Your Phoenix Fragment is 1/5 of the Phoenix Force against my Cosmic Cube power in a 30-foot radius (never countered the super adaptoid arg beyond bringing in molecule man, and then conceded it); it's like putting the Phoenix Force against 5 Cosmic Cubes. Oh wait -Magus! Magus' feats with the 5 cosmic cubes faaar outweigh the Phoenix Force's feats; he was on par with the IG and created his own UNIVERSE. Thus Cosmic Ring outweighs Phoenix Fragment.

This isn't really an argument. I've only used feats from the P5 when they were all separated. It's not like putting the phoenix force against 5 cosmic cubes because 5 cosmic cubes aren't limited to a 15 foot radius. This extrapolation makes absolutely no sense.

~Final Conclusion Post And The Last Post By Either Of Us~

Do you get to decide this? I don't think you get to decide this. You first try to cut me off by calling for votes before I respond, then when I do respond and agree that we can vote if you want, you make another response and say that you get to make the last post. This is disingenuous.

Anyhow, I adressed everything in your final statements already, sometimes multiple times. My "final conclusion" is your team can't find mine, you still have yet to show Blink teleporting something she can't see, which is crucial to your strategy (and, hilariously, a topic you dropped). You've backtracked into creating a bunch of Thor clones with your prep which will be generally ineffectual. Your reality warper thankfully has a counter with my team's creation blades, your every strategy is sussed out by the crystal glasses, and your team's combat speed is sluggish, bordering on non-existent compared to mine. You've also essentially wrote off every character on your team. Subject Delta has been brought up by no one but me, you completely dropped Blink as a topic when I called you out on how you were using her abilities, and Kenji seems only pertinent to give you telepathy immunity. Your plan has been reduced(heh) to "Spiderman solos your team with the cosmic ring." I find that unlikely.

#41 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Well I was going by you posting first, so me posting last, but re-reading actually I posted first technically (though that was just me saying 'hi sorry guys i can't post anything here's a little blurb' but it does count if you want it to), so sorry! You can have that last post. Shall we agree not to post anything else until votes are done? Mmm?

#42 Edited by Dredeuced (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: I've never been one to tell someone to stop debating. If you've got a problem with anything I've brought then keep responding until it's time to vote. I won't stop responding to anything new you bring up. I suppose that makes us less beneficiary of the winner's perks but I'd rather flesh out the debate more than get a specific reward.

#43 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: damn winner's perks fast $&^$% ARGH I JUST SAW THAT

I AM GOING TO PUNCH A SQUIRREL IN THE FACE

WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT DIREDRILL

q.q

i wanted those 3 high tier points man. i wanted 'em. Well either one of us gets the 9 mid-tier points, so it's okay either way i suppose.

#44 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium:

1) T-Spheres

Mostly irrelevant so I'm not going to touch on this much, but you seem to be mis-understanding a basic rule of technology. As in, 'there is no reason for technology that is exactly the same to be superior to itself'. Though I've only dabbled in nanotech so far, I do understand that most of our morphing capabilities (like T-Sphere to T-Mask) in the field have much the same limits. There is no way that the T-Mask could be superior than the T-Sphere when they are made of the same exact stuff. But again it's irrelevant.

My technology is not superior to yours. There's just no proof or reasoning that Holt has equipped his T-spheres with scanning measures that can get around his invisibility to technology -- and I'm not sure why he'd ever need to since he's the only one with said ability. The T-spheres have only ever shown standard mechanical scanning tools. It's not irrelevant because your entire strategy starts off with "My T-spheres find your team and then," It's actually incredibly relevant if the first brick in your house crumbles.

Er but you're teleporting at my team.

2) AoA Blink finding my team

Your Phoenix feat literally just looks like someone finding info about someone, which both of us have due to the Full Knowledge Perk. So I'm going to disregard this as the Phoenix isn't omniscient.

Do you need context behind this? Sinister put an idea in hope's head, causing her to doubt. The Phoenix Five sussed out the information without using telepathy by merely asking the cosmic entity. While it's not omniscient, it's hardly as if where your team is located in a city is cosmically guarded knowledge.

Feel free to disregard it, it's not an actual counter.

I actually don't know why I'm countering this since I've been going off the assumption that your team is teleporting in. This doesn't matter; your team will get to my team somehow.

3) Shard of Lightning

Edited my post after watching the episode of Xaolin Showdown with the Shard of Lightning in it, mate.

There were five hours inbetween our posts. I should not be obligated to reread your original post after I make my argument. Everything I addressed was directly in your post and editting it out at some indeterminant point doesn't change the issue.

...Sorry? I mean I edited it like ten minutes after or so. But this isn't relevant either.

4) Ragnaroks vs Your Team

I like how you attempt to discredit my 'Thor is faster than light' feats by saying 'Thor isn't faster than light'. That's totally going to fly.

Of course I'm discrediting Thor being faster than light in combat speed. He's not. The dude struggles to keep up with street levelers a lot of the time. Mjolnir is, but he is not.

M'kay, see, you're doing the whole 'I'm disagreeing with you' thing.

More Thor FTL feats:

Now we all know Thor has stopped bullets and energy beams by spinning Mjolnir around. (btw as for your berserker bullets:

If your robot hits the berserker bullet (not sure how with you all frozen in time relative to my team) then they'd still infect you. They assimilate whatever they hit.

Except Ragnarok's not frozen...

Here, with FTB speed, he deflects two bullets with a single swing way back in

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...ed03aJIM100.jpg

Irrelevant vs lightspeed, which my team is moving at.

I know, I was saying that Ragnarok is going to dodge, which was your initial assumption.

Here, he blocks a single bullet with the head of Mjolnir before whirling it to create a field in

Again, irrelevant. Street levelers can do this. As a matter of fact, everyone on my team except Blink can do this casually WITHOUT gear. That doesn't mean they can stop someone who's shooting bullets while they're moving at lightspeed.

And it's been argued that he has to do that because he's not fast enough to block them traditionally with Mjolnir or bat them away. After all, he'd require faster than bullet ("FTB") and faster than light ("FTL") combat speed reflexes to do so. However, these next scans should dispel ANY doubt whether he does possess FTB or FTL combat speed reflexes since he deflects bullets and energy blasts by moving or swinging Mjolnir once rather than by spinning Mjolnir.

I have never contested that Thor can hit bullets. I even specifically said he's usually hypersonic in reaction unless he's brawling. I will contest faster than light, though, to my dying breath. Thor's a freaking lumox. PS: Swinging Mjolnir faster than light does not give him faster than light reactions. Mjolnir is obviously faster than light, I pointed out as much.

I like how you made the argument I pre-empted a response too. That's nice.

As for FTL reactions that can be measured in nanoseconds (light travels one foot per nanosecond), he's swung and swatted away Blastaar's energy blasts in

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rspeed15270.jpg

Far from a one-off FTL feat, he does the same to Mole Man's energy blaster shot in

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...wo-In-One96.jpg

Here, Enchantress shoots a blast at Captain America and Thor reacts with FTL speed to cut off the energy blast in mid-flight, from

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...eed17bMCP44.jpg

Phoenix shoots a telepathic blast at a groggy Thor at the moment Thor's arms are at his side. AFTER the shot is fired and already traveling at him, Thor raises his arms and reflects it back with Mjolnir. Telepathy being instantaneous traditionally (as noted in the narration), we can assume for the sake of argument that it was only traveling at light-speed, making this another FTL feat, from

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rspeed18428.jpg

So, is anything that's depicted as an energy blast faster than light? Because anyone who's ever dodged a blaster or blocked one has FTL Speeds, then. Captain America's blocked more energy blasts with his shield than I can count. Characters on my team have dodged energy blasts. That doesn't give them FTL reaction speed and most certainly not ftl combat speed. Quicksilver specifically is faster than Thor in combat speed and he's only hypersonic -- thor can get around this with AOE attacks, but scale this up 872,000 times and I'd say there's difficulty.

If you want, I can post Thor getting blitzed by 10 different street levelers, from captain america to Mongoose. If it's up to the voters to decide if Thor is FTL then I'm fairly confident that I'll win out in this debate because it's a laughable claim.

A laughable claim that I just posted quite a bit of evidence for. The telepathy was instant, btw, as in light-speed, so yeah there ya go. Blastaar's energy blasts are specifically FTL as he lives in the Negative Zone and thus they disrupt molecular structure by something something planck lengths science physics. Yeah I don't quite get it either. Anyhow Enchantress' blasts are light speed via her chronokinesis as far as I can tell (though nobody can ever really tell with Loki and I have no idea whether or not this is before or after her depower) and Mole-Man is, uh, moleman.

Anyhow here's more evidence.

catching up to and then outrunning Ego the living planet while Ego was in hyperspace.

i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/Thor%20Respect/AST02-007.jpg

i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/Thor%20Respect/AST02-008.jpg

i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/Thor%20Respect/AST02-009.jpg

I’m not sure how fast Ego is in Hyperspace besides 5,000 times faster than light but Thor must have been going at least twice the speed of Ego to get ahead of him.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/109250/2339226-ThorSuperspeed08144.jpg

oh looks its ftl mjolnir and thor blocking it

*claps*

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength24281.jpg

Here, he simply flexes and breaks apart an Olympian metal harness

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...Avengers282.jpg

And with seemingly less effort, he flexes and snaps adamantium alloy cables like they were nothing

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength28309.jpg

Does this look familiar? Twenty years later, Thor literally re-performs his feat of lifting a metal railway and sustaining the weight of a passing train as it races by

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength30319.jpg

Onto pure pushing and lifting feats. Early on, Thor pushes over the Leaning Tower of Pisa with his finger

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rStrength07.jpg

And large numbers already are quantified as Thor leg presses millions of tons of rock onto the Destroyer

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...gth12JIM119.jpg

After the villain, Graviton, finds his powers uncontrollable, he compresses an entire floating city into a sphere, and Thor, along with several other Avengers, find themselves supporting and then heaving millions of tons of weight into the Atlantic

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...Avengers159.jpg

Thor tows the small island, Hydrobase, into New York harbor

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...Avengers301.jpg

Thor closes a chasm of a "million tons of earth" over Loki, from

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...tAvengers55.jpg

Here Thor crushes a force-field of the Power Cosmic (amped by Loki's power) that keeps him from Mjolnir

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...ength15SS04.jpg

Thor's punching power is also legendary. The narrator quantifies it as being able to shatter a small mountain

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...gth09JIM108.jpg

Here, Thor destroys another of Silver Surfer's force-fields with a single strike

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rStrength16.jpg

Indeed, his punch is so powerful that combined with a punch of equal strength, it is capable of actually closing dimensional rifts

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...Avengers100.jpg

Thor's able to one-shot top-tier foes like Namor (in the driving rain) with his punches

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...3Invaders33.jpg

He's also one-shotted classic Abomination with a single blow

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength17178.jpg

And enchanted inanimate objects like a colossal faerie door have been felled by a single punch

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength34347.jpg

As for pure collateral damage, a single punch met with the same force has leveled a countryside

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength33338.jpg

And with repeated blows? Thor and Red Norvell literally wreck Asgard with their fist-fight and almost deafen Heimdall

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength41476.jpg

Thor's strength is recognized by many of the powerhouses in Marvel. Wonderman concedes that Thor has superior strength

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...Avengers181.jpg

Adam Warlock acknowledges that Thor is one of the "physically most powerful beings in the universe,"

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...nityWatch23.jpg

And apparently, this isn't hyperbole. Here, Thor literally matches a Savage Hulk's strength in a grappling contest for an entire hour

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...Defenders10.jpg

His stamina allows him to fight Mephisto's Lost Legion for hours on end

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...tamina01205.jpg

Here, he stalemates immortal Hercules in a contest of arm-wrestling (hercules lifts a million tons)

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength21222.jpg

Thor resists a force "as though half a planet" were bearing down on him

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...rength14140.jpg

Thor resists the gravimetric pull akin to "that of a neutron star" and busts out

Ah, good, a scan dump. A weak debate tactic where you just say "look at what my character can do!" without applying any of the feats to a fight.

As great as Thor is, he is helpless against anyone with a Phoenix Fragment.

I need not point out the plethora of other times he was manhandled by anyone on the P5. They'd be telekinetically neutralized and teleported away by Blink at will, considering they'd struggle to even harm her. Nemesis can use the Quantum Bands to straight drain them (Quasar has done such to Beta Ray Bill before). There's no reason the berserker cells wouldn't work on them, especially considering you're outright stating they're going to try to hit the bullets -- the worst possible tactic.

I'd also like to point out that the things you're making aren't actually equivalent to Thor. I don't believe they ever came equipped with Skyfather level artifacts, did they?

Oh, and guess what? Ragnarok's not even fully a cyborg; he also is half-Asgardian, and thus even if you somehow prove that you can get past 200 Ragnaroks (800 now actually that my MGH shot factored in) who move faster than you and just have to touch you to kill you, he can still see with eyes composed of DNA, which T-Masks do nothing to. So, uh, checkmate there!

You are the one who called them robots. Proof that their eyes aren't robotic? Not that it'd matter considering they're frozen in time but, hell, I'll be generous and let you atleast try to justify your argument.

Now for the Cosmic Cube part, which you countered terribly:

1) Your main response was 'you can't use molecule man or beyonder stuff', none of which I posted or am using because I know they're all weird

"they're weird" is not a counter argument. What one being does with the power of a cosmic cube is not the implications for what any other being can do. The many different cosmic cube users and beings prove this. You said you can use any and every cosmic cube feat -- you posted Thanos supplanting Eternity. While this is probably just you parading a useless scan to try to impress, it's not relevant. Almost all of these feats of yours involved someone affecting things on a grander scale than what the Cosmic Ring can do.

You keep saying 'on a grander scale than what the Cosmic Ring can do' despite not having countered the Super Adaptoid vs Kubik argument except for bringing up Molecule Man and Beyonder who range wildly in their backstories in terms of Cosmic Cube beings. The Cosmic Ring has already proved equal to Kubik, who is a standard Cosmic Cube being.

2) I literally said 'within a radius' for every single one of those omnipotency things

It's not actual omnipotency and you've attempted to cheese the radius ridiculously, which brings us to:

3) You clearly didn't read the part where I said 'Parker absorbs the Cosmic Ring like Thanos Did'. Then MGH...doubles his powers. Though that's not really necessary considering he's omnipotent in a 15-square-foot radius and you have to physically beat him.

I did read it. Now let me reiterate myself. The Cosmic Ring is not a genetic power. It is not something thats power can be increased by injecting a hormone into one's system. What you're saying makes absolutely no sense. It is literally a cosmic device, you can't take a shot from a human made drug to double it's power. It's beyond asinine.

4) Half your argument is 'the phoenix fragment costs more'. Because of two reasons; it has telepathy which is now nothing and it has a larger range which is also now...nothing.

I don't see how not being limited to a 15 foot radius isn't a massive advantage. I would like to ask @diredrill if it's allowable that you can use a freaking synthesized drug to double the power of a cosmic artifact. I think it's flat out insane but if you want to contest this as much as possible, let the tourney runner decide.

Your Phoenix Fragment is 1/5 of the Phoenix Force against my Cosmic Cube power in a 30-foot radius (never countered the super adaptoid arg beyond bringing in molecule man, and then conceded it); it's like putting the Phoenix Force against 5 Cosmic Cubes. Oh wait -Magus! Magus' feats with the 5 cosmic cubes faaar outweigh the Phoenix Force's feats; he was on par with the IG and created his own UNIVERSE. Thus Cosmic Ring outweighs Phoenix Fragment.

This isn't really an argument. I've only used feats from the P5 when they were all separated. It's not like putting the phoenix force against 5 cosmic cubes because 5 cosmic cubes aren't limited to a 15 foot radius. This extrapolation makes absolutely no sense.

*sigh*

Alright here we go.

A Phoenix Fragment = 1/5P

Cosmic Ring = C

I am contesting that (C>.2P)

We already know that (5C>P)

Thus if we divide by five, we get

(5C>P)/5=(C>.2P)

Get it?

~Final Conclusion Post And The Last Post By Either Of Us~

Do you get to decide this? I don't think you get to decide this. You first try to cut me off by calling for votes before I respond, then when I do respond and agree that we can vote if you want, you make another response and say that you get to make the last post. This is disingenuous.

Anyhow, I adressed everything in your final statements already, sometimes multiple times. My "final conclusion" is your team can't find mine, you still have yet to show Blink teleporting something she can't see, which is crucial to your strategy (and, hilariously, a topic you dropped). You've backtracked into creating a bunch of Thor clones with your prep which will be generally ineffectual. Your reality warper thankfully has a counter with my team's creation blades, your every strategy is sussed out by the crystal glasses, and your team's combat speed is sluggish, bordering on non-existent compared to mine. You've also essentially wrote off every character on your team. Subject Delta has been brought up by no one but me, you completely dropped Blink as a topic when I called you out on how you were using her abilities, and Kenji seems only pertinent to give you telepathy immunity. Your plan has been reduced(heh) to "Spiderman solos your team with the cosmic ring." I find that unlikely.

Okay here's Blink:

teleporting a million zombies into Genosha for Selene's resurrection before being like 'oh snap selene is overloading'.

She is, clearly, right beside Selene when this happens.

That'd be Blink teleporting an army she can't see.

I've got like a dozen FTL reactionary and transit feats for Thor, all of which Ragnarok possesses, and there are 200 of them. I've also got feats of him doing things that would completely STOMP the Phoenix considering he's as immune to telepathy as everyone else considering y'know half-asgardian and techno-organic kenji yeah and that leaves you with only your telekinetic beams. The Super Adaptoid vs Kubik as well as the Magus vs Phoenix case prove that the Cosmic Ring is more powerful than the Phoenix within that range. You dropped the point about the cold field always slowing people (flash had to go six times the speed of light to get past it as i remember and was slowed to human speed) and after about three seconds of them trying to get through a wall of ragnaroks the light-speed wears off and they get dunked beyond belief. Also I showed multiple scans of Blink re-directing lightning and light-speed beams, and those reactions are DOUBLED!

Also Subject Delta really isn't necessary, I would have happily settled for 3 members if it was allowed, you're right.

#45 Posted by DireDrill (2433 posts) - - Show Bio
#46 Edited by Dredeuced (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium:

Er but you're teleporting at my team.

Indeed, but you're persisting that my team teleports into a range where you can easily dispose of us with the cosmic ring. By using the T-spheres to identify where my team is. Blink needs to know where things are relative to each other to teleport them (She's asked for directions many times before so she can accurately teleport to a destination).

I actually don't know why I'm countering this since I've been going off the assumption that your team is teleporting in. This doesn't matter; your team will get to my team somehow.

There is a very large difference in my team teleporting to yours in a surprise attack with lightspeed combat speed and your team teleporting mine in against their will into the radius of a powerful artifact.

...Sorry? I mean I edited it like ten minutes after or so. But this isn't relevant either.

Then what I quoted was already edited and your "but I edited!" remark makes no sense. I only copy and pasted your own statements, five hours after, to respond. I didn't even read your post 10 minutes after you made it so I never saw it pre edit. That means you still made all those incorrect assumptions about the Shard of Lightning.

M'kay, see, you're doing the whole 'I'm disagreeing with you' thing.

It's like we're having a debate, or something.

Except Ragnarok's not frozen...

Relative to my team, they are.

I know, I was saying that Ragnarok is going to dodge, which was your initial assumption.

They are not going to dodge faster than light bullets. My team and their gear are all moving at relative lightspeeds.

I like how you made the argument I pre-empted a response too. That's nice.

Am I not supposed to? Pre-emption of arguments to save time is fairly typical.

A laughable claim that I just posted quite a bit of evidence for. The telepathy was instant, btw, as in light-speed, so yeah there ya go.

Lightspeed isn't instant and telepathy, especially "blasts" have no proof of being lightspeed.

Blastaar's energy blasts are specifically FTL as he lives in the Negative Zone and thus they disrupt molecular structure by something something planck lengths science physics. Yeah I don't quite get it either.

...Proof? I'd love to see a comic from the 70s talk about planck length physics, considering that's when the Blastaar scan is from.

Anyhow Enchantress' blasts are light speed via her chronokinesis as far as I can tell (though nobody can ever really tell with Loki and I have no idea whether or not this is before or after her depower) and Mole-Man is, uh, moleman.

All unconvincing and without proof. Chronokinesis allows you to stop time or move through it at will, not make energy/magic blasts FTL all the time. Enchantress's blasts have been reacted to, dodged, and blocked by basically every Avenger on the roster before. Unless you think Hawkeye or Captain America have FTL reflexes then this is hardly the case.

There might be some instance of Classic Thor demonstrating something akin to FTL reactions, but for the past 20-30 years he has far more often and far more consistently struggled with dodging, reacting to, and dealing with anything hypersonic. Ragnarok appeared earliest in, what, 2006? Are you really going to attribute old, no longer relevant, massively outdated classic Thor feats to it? How the hell did Hercules beat it, then? Herc's not even hypersonic. If it really had FTL reflexes, how is it constantly hit, damaged, and beaten by foes who aren't even as fast as Quicksilver?

That's my point, you're reaching to pull on every Thor feat you can, ignoring the past 20-30 years of more consistent writing where Thor isn't particularly fast in combat. Neither is Ragnarok and I think it's laughable to assume that the robot can keep up with people moving at light speed. Not to mention that it doesn't even have mjolnir, which is responsible for most of even Classic Thor's ftl feats, and all of modern Thor's FTL travel feats.

catching up to and then outrunning Ego the living planet while Ego was in hyperspace.

i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/Thor%20Respect/AST02-007.jpg

i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/Thor%20Respect/AST02-008.jpg

i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/Thor%20Respect/AST02-009.jpg

I’m not sure how fast Ego is in Hyperspace besides 5,000 times faster than light but Thor must have been going at least twice the speed of Ego to get ahead of him.

This will be the last time I say it before leaving it off for the voters to decide. Travel speed is not combat speed, it is not reaction speed, and hyperspace travel feats in their own merit have no gauge of speed because they're USING hyperspace to get around not being able to travel fast enough in regular space. Everything about this statement does nothing to serve your point, unless your goal is to have all your Ragnaroks (who don't even HAVE Mjolnir so they can't do this) fly away as fast as possible.

This entire strategy also does nothing to save your team from being killed by mine during the shard of lightning duration, which was the entire premise. Having an army doesn't stop someone from putting a creation blade through your head.

oh looks its ftl mjolnir and thor blocking it

*claps*

Yes, Classic Thor, the shining beacon of consistency and --

Literally couldn't tag Mongoose and resorted to spinning around in a circle really fast. There's more like this -- both classic and modern Thor (and modern Thor is the one that Ragnarok is a copy of, as it has none of Classic Thor's feats) have struggled with street level characters with anything resembling high agility. Wolverine, Spider-man, Captain America, Black Panther -- you name a quick street leveler and they've boxed circles around lumbering old Thor.

You are attributing inconsistent 40 year old feats, with limited context, about a technically different character (Ragnarok does not have Mjolnir) and disregarding the other multiple decades of showings that definitively show that Thor does not fight anyone at light speeds. You assume blocking an energy blast makes someone FTL, which means every single marvel street leveler has FTL reflexes. It's an absurd premise. I'm done with this line of arguing and will let the voters decide, because we have argued ourselves into quite the ridiculous circle.

You keep saying 'on a grander scale than what the Cosmic Ring can do' despite not having countered the Super Adaptoid vs Kubik argument except for bringing up Molecule Man and Beyonder who range wildly in their backstories in terms of Cosmic Cube beings. The Cosmic Ring has already proved equal to Kubik, who is a standard Cosmic Cube being.

Then why are you using feats of Thanos supplanting Eternity with a cosmic cube? Why did you say you can use any cosmic cube feats because of one fight? My point was that you can't, and all the feats on a bigger scale than 15 radial feet are non-applicable to it.

Your argument is disingenuous and attempts to draw on feats that the artifact cannot recreate.

*sigh*

Alright here we go.

A Phoenix Fragment = 1/5P

Cosmic Ring = C

I am contesting that (C>.2P)

We already know that (5C>P)

Thus if we divide by five, we get

(5C>P)/5=(C>.2P)

Get it?

Is this facetious? My problem was not 2nd grade math. My problem was using second grade math to determine the outcome of our fight when the Cosmic Ring isn't actually as powerful as a cosmic cube because it has specific limits that the cube doesn't. Cosmic Cubes have infinite range. What's infinity scaled down to 15 feet? With limited feats? Because that's what you're arguing is > .2 of a Phoenix.

I also feel you're insulting my intelligence with this hackneyed argument, trying to make me appear dumber by going "Hey guys, Dredeuced can't multiply and divide by five!" This is a complete dodging of all my arguments and serves little to no purpose.

Okay here's Blink:

teleporting a million zombies into Genosha for Selene's resurrection before being like 'oh snap selene is overloading'.

She is, clearly, right beside Selene when this happens.

That'd be Blink teleporting an army she can't see.

She's looking at Genosha in that scan, though...? Also wasn't someone channelling her power during the Necrosha event? I haven't read it, admittedly, but I'm sure you have. Give me some context. That said she'd still have to know where my team is at to do this, a point I believe you've done a poor job at proving.

I've got like a dozen FTL reactionary and transit feats for Thor,

I'm sure you do, almost all of them are travel feats which has nothing to do with combat speed, and even more of them are just "he blocked an energy blast!" which has never and will never be an FTL feat, lest we start calling Spider-man and Black Panther FTL in combat speed.

all of which Ragnarok possesses and there are 200 of them.

Also false. Practically all of Thor's feats, even his classic ones, rely on Mjolnir. Something Ragnarok doesn't have. Unless you're saying you're using the Cosmic Ring to make 200 Mjolnirs. I'll call shenanigans on that, since that circumvents the buyouts in the thread considering how much Mjolnir costs. Maybe you could create mjolnirs that would disappear after leaving your radius, but if you're actually saying you can create anything you want in that 15 foot area, why aren't you just making some all the infinity gems and equipping everyone on your team with infinity gauntlets? You are omnipotent, after all!

Unless, well, you're talking from a dark and smelly place.

I've also got feats of him doing things that would completely STOMP the Phoenix considering he's as immune to telepathy as everyone else considering y'know half-asgardian and techno-organic kenji yeah and that leaves you with only your telekinetic beams

The Phoenix 5 trounced Thor, with Mjolnir, a multitude of times. I'll take actual showings of power more than your supposition and extrapolation of feats. He is neither fast enough, powerful enough, or tough enough to deal with a Phoenix Fragment user. It's plain as day.

The Super Adaptoid vs Kubik as well as the Magus vs Phoenix case prove that the Cosmic Ring is more powerful than the Phoenix within that range.

I never contested this, actually. My point was you're defeated by other means and that your range doesn't get increased by injecting yourself with drugs.

You dropped the point about the cold field always slowing people (flash had to go six times the speed of light to get past it as i remember and was slowed to human speed) and after about three seconds of them trying to get through a wall of ragnaroks the light-speed wears off and they get dunked beyond belief.

I didn't drop the point about the cold field. I specifically addressed it. Do not disingenuously misconstrue my argument. The Flash has never had to go light speed to get through the cold field, by the way. He's done it by going hypersonic. Here, check these out:

Wanna know when this fight happened? July of 1989, Flash #28 if you want to be precise. You want to know when the first time Wally went FTL post crisis? 1995. He dealt with Captain Cold a number of times inbetween these issues, too. You want to duel me when it comes to Flash knowledge than I'll be happy to oblige, Cold's gun doesn't stop people moving at light speed. It slows the Flash down when he operates in hypersonic speeds. This has been consistent, as when Wally goes all out later in his run, he quite easily disarms Mirror Master's light speed traps and casually busts through Cold's field.

after about three seconds of them trying to get through a wall of ragnaroks the light-speed wears off and they get dunked beyond belief.

Watch the video again:

That's not 3 seconds. That's well over 30 seconds, relative to Jack's perceptions when he uses it. My team also wouldn't have to go through a "wall" of anything. They can teleport via Blink. And even if they did, Blink could teleport all of your robots out of the way with plenty of time to spare for my team to blitz yours to death with our handy, anti-reality warper gear.

Also I showed multiple scans of Blink re-directing lightning and light-speed beams, and those reactions are DOUBLED!

Blink does not have light speed reactions. You've got to be kidding me with this point.

Also Subject Delta really isn't necessary, I would have happily settled for 3 members if it was allowed, you're right.

Pretty poor team construction, then.

#47 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium:

Er but you're teleporting at my team.

Indeed, but you're persisting that my team teleports into a range where you can easily dispose of us with the cosmic ring. By using the T-spheres to identify where my team is. Blink needs to know where things are relative to each other to teleport them (She's asked for directions many times before so she can accurately teleport to a destination).

I actually don't know why I'm countering this since I've been going off the assumption that your team is teleporting in. This doesn't matter; your team will get to my team somehow.

There is a very large difference in my team teleporting to yours in a surprise attack with lightspeed combat speed and your team teleporting mine in against their will into the radius of a powerful artifact.

...Sorry? I mean I edited it like ten minutes after or so. But this isn't relevant either.

Then what I quoted was already edited and your "but I edited!" remark makes no sense. I only copy and pasted your own statements, five hours after, to respond. I didn't even read your post 10 minutes after you made it so I never saw it pre edit. That means you still made all those incorrect assumptions about the Shard of Lightning.

M'kay, see, you're doing the whole 'I'm disagreeing with you' thing.

It's like we're having a debate, or something.

Except Ragnarok's not frozen...

Relative to my team, they are.

I know, I was saying that Ragnarok is going to dodge, which was your initial assumption.

They are not going to dodge faster than light bullets. My team and their gear are all moving at relative lightspeeds.

I like how you made the argument I pre-empted a response too. That's nice.

Am I not supposed to? Pre-emption of arguments to save time is fairly typical.

A laughable claim that I just posted quite a bit of evidence for. The telepathy was instant, btw, as in light-speed, so yeah there ya go.

Lightspeed isn't instant and telepathy, especially "blasts" have no proof of being lightspeed.

Blastaar's energy blasts are specifically FTL as he lives in the Negative Zone and thus they disrupt molecular structure by something something planck lengths science physics. Yeah I don't quite get it either.

...Proof? I'd love to see a comic from the 70s talk about planck length physics, considering that's when the Blastaar scan is from.

Anyhow Enchantress' blasts are light speed via her chronokinesis as far as I can tell (though nobody can ever really tell with Loki and I have no idea whether or not this is before or after her depower) and Mole-Man is, uh, moleman.

All unconvincing and without proof. Chronokinesis allows you to stop time or move through it at will, not make energy/magic blasts FTL all the time. Enchantress's blasts have been reacted to, dodged, and blocked by basically every Avenger on the roster before. Unless you think Hawkeye or Captain America have FTL reflexes then this is hardly the case.

There might be some instance of Classic Thor demonstrating something akin to FTL reactions, but for the past 20-30 years he has far more often and far more consistently struggled with dodging, reacting to, and dealing with anything hypersonic. Ragnarok appeared earliest in, what, 2006? Are you really going to attribute old, no longer relevant, massively outdated classic Thor feats to it? How the hell did Hercules beat it, then? Herc's not even hypersonic. If it really had FTL reflexes, how is it constantly hit, damaged, and beaten by foes who aren't even as fast as Quicksilver?

That's my point, you're reaching to pull on every Thor feat you can, ignoring the past 20-30 years of more consistent writing where Thor isn't particularly fast in combat. Neither is Ragnarok and I think it's laughable to assume that the robot can keep up with people moving at light speed. Not to mention that it doesn't even have mjolnir, which is responsible for most of even Classic Thor's ftl feats, and all of modern Thor's FTL travel feats.

catching up to and then outrunning Ego the living planet while Ego was in hyperspace.

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I’m not sure how fast Ego is in Hyperspace besides 5,000 times faster than light but Thor must have been going at least twice the speed of Ego to get ahead of him.

This will be the last time I say it before leaving it off for the voters to decide. Travel speed is not combat speed, it is not reaction speed, and hyperspace travel feats in their own merit have no gauge of speed because they're USING hyperspace to get around not being able to travel fast enough in regular space. Everything about this statement does nothing to serve your point, unless your goal is to have all your Ragnaroks (who don't even HAVE Mjolnir so they can't do this) fly away as fast as possible.

This entire strategy also does nothing to save your team from being killed by mine during the shard of lightning duration, which was the entire premise. Having an army doesn't stop someone from putting a creation blade through your head.

oh looks its ftl mjolnir and thor blocking it

*claps*

Yes, Classic Thor, the shining beacon of consistency and --

Literally couldn't tag Mongoose and resorted to spinning around in a circle really fast. There's more like this -- both classic and modern Thor (and modern Thor is the one that Ragnarok is a copy of, as it has none of Classic Thor's feats) have struggled with street level characters with anything resembling high agility. Wolverine, Spider-man, Captain America, Black Panther -- you name a quick street leveler and they've boxed circles around lumbering old Thor.

You are attributing inconsistent 40 year old feats, with limited context, about a technically different character (Ragnarok does not have Mjolnir) and disregarding the other multiple decades of showings that definitively show that Thor does not fight anyone at light speeds. You assume blocking an energy blast makes someone FTL, which means every single marvel street leveler has FTL reflexes. It's an absurd premise. I'm done with this line of arguing and will let the voters decide, because we have argued ourselves into quite the ridiculous circle.

Okay. So let's leave this issue for the voters decide. Every character has high feats and low feats.

You keep saying 'on a grander scale than what the Cosmic Ring can do' despite not having countered the Super Adaptoid vs Kubik argument except for bringing up Molecule Man and Beyonder who range wildly in their backstories in terms of Cosmic Cube beings. The Cosmic Ring has already proved equal to Kubik, who is a standard Cosmic Cube being.

Then why are you using feats of Thanos supplanting Eternity with a cosmic cube? Why did you say you can use any cosmic cube feats because of one fight? My point was that you can't, and all the feats on a bigger scale than 15 radial feet are non-applicable to it.

Your argument is disingenuous and attempts to draw on feats that the artifact cannot recreate.

I am using feats from "standard" cosmic cube beings. Hell, I even used one from Kubik HIMSELF! The Super Adaptoid vs Kubik fight, as I've said a million times, shows that in its radius, the Cosmic Cube and Cosmic Ring are equally powerful! Thus I get those effects IN THE RADIUS!

*sigh*

Alright here we go.

A Phoenix Fragment = 1/5P

Cosmic Ring = C

I am contesting that (C>.2P)

We already know that (5C>P)

Thus if we divide by five, we get

(5C>P)/5=(C>.2P)

Get it?

Is this facetious? My problem was not 2nd grade math. My problem was using second grade math to determine the outcome of our fight when the Cosmic Ring isn't actually as powerful as a cosmic cube because it has specific limits that the cube doesn't. Cosmic Cubes have infinite range. What's infinity scaled down to 15 feet? With limited feats? Because that's what you're arguing is > .2 of a Phoenix.

I also feel you're insulting my intelligence with this hackneyed argument, trying to make me appear dumber by going "Hey guys, Dredeuced can't multiply and divide by five!" This is a complete dodging of all my arguments and serves little to no purpose.

If you're going to determine power by division, infinity divided by 15 is still infinity. You said 'this extrapolation makes no sense' and 'i'm not using the phoenix force, only one member'. You said nothing about the cosmic ring vs cosmic cube. I am sorry if I misrepresent your argument.

Okay here's Blink:

teleporting a million zombies into Genosha for Selene's resurrection before being like 'oh snap selene is overloading'.

She is, clearly, right beside Selene when this happens.

That'd be Blink teleporting an army she can't see.

She's looking at Genosha in that scan, though...? Also wasn't someone channelling her power during the Necrosha event? I haven't read it, admittedly, but I'm sure you have. Give me some context. That said she'd still have to know where my team is at to do this, a point I believe you've done a poor job at proving.

Channeling her power? Erm...no, not as far as I remember. And that's not Blink (whoops, kay, yeah, probably seemed like that). That's someone else with generic telepathy being like 'oh snap a lot of souls'.

I've got like a dozen FTL reactionary and transit feats for Thor,

I'm sure you do, almost all of them are travel feats which has nothing to do with combat speed, and even more of them are just "he blocked an energy blast!" which has never and will never be an FTL feat, lest we start calling Spider-man and Black Panther FTL in combat speed.

all of which Ragnarok possesses and there are 200 of them.

Also false. Practically all of Thor's feats, even his classic ones, rely on Mjolnir. Something Ragnarok doesn't have. Unless you're saying you're using the Cosmic Ring to make 200 Mjolnirs. I'll call shenanigans on that, since that circumvents the buyouts in the thread considering how much Mjolnir costs. Maybe you could create mjolnirs that would disappear after leaving your radius, but if you're actually saying you can create anything you want in that 15 foot area, why aren't you just making some all the infinity gems and equipping everyone on your team with infinity gauntlets? You are omnipotent, after all!

Unless, well, you're talking from a dark and smelly place.

I've also got feats of him doing things that would completely STOMP the Phoenix considering he's as immune to telepathy as everyone else considering y'know half-asgardian and techno-organic kenji yeah and that leaves you with only your telekinetic beams

The Phoenix 5 trounced Thor, with Mjolnir, a multitude of times. I'll take actual showings of power more than your supposition and extrapolation of feats. He is neither fast enough, powerful enough, or tough enough to deal with a Phoenix Fragment user. It's plain as day.

The Super Adaptoid vs Kubik as well as the Magus vs Phoenix case prove that the Cosmic Ring is more powerful than the Phoenix within that range.

I never contested this, actually. My point was you're defeated by other means and that your range doesn't get increased by injecting yourself with drugs.

You dropped the point about the cold field always slowing people (flash had to go six times the speed of light to get past it as i remember and was slowed to human speed) and after about three seconds of them trying to get through a wall of ragnaroks the light-speed wears off and they get dunked beyond belief.

I didn't drop the point about the cold field. I specifically addressed it. Do not disingenuously misconstrue my argument. The Flash has never had to go light speed to get through the cold field, by the way. He's done it by going hypersonic. Here, check these out:

Wanna know when this fight happened? July of 1989, Flash #28 if you want to be precise. You want to know when the first time Wally went FTL post crisis? 1995. He dealt with Captain Cold a number of times inbetween these issues, too. You want to duel me when it comes to Flash knowledge than I'll be happy to oblige, Cold's gun doesn't stop people moving at light speed. It slows the Flash down when he operates in hypersonic speeds. This has been consistent, as when Wally goes all out later in his run, he quite easily disarms Mirror Master's light speed traps and casually busts through Cold's field.

I was talking about stuff from the New 52, which is the only one I've read. Sorry, I should have clarified that. Where, if I'm not mistaken, Captain Cold uses the cold field to...slow the Flash down to human speed.

after about three seconds of them trying to get through a wall of ragnaroks the light-speed wears off and they get dunked beyond belief.

Watch the video again:

That's not 3 seconds. That's well over 30 seconds, relative to Jack's perceptions when he uses it. My team also wouldn't have to go through a "wall" of anything. They can teleport via Blink. And even if they did, Blink could teleport all of your robots out of the way with plenty of time to spare for my team to blitz yours to death with our handy, anti-reality warper gear.

Anti-apparition field. So you have 30 seconds to move, right? You have to get through a solid wall of Ragnaroks.

Also I showed multiple scans of Blink re-directing lightning and light-speed beams, and those reactions are DOUBLED!

Blink does not have light speed reactions. You've got to be kidding me with this point.

You're doing that thing again where you refute me with no actual evidence to my proof-backed-claims. Go back and look at the scans.

Also Subject Delta really isn't necessary, I would have happily settled for 3 members if it was allowed, you're right.

Pretty poor team construction, then.

I feel like the fact that we've literally just been going 'Creation Blades' 'Lightspeed' 'Phoenix Fragment' shows that you're only using two of your members here.

I'm more or less done here. The two main issues (the Blink thing has all but been dropped due to your team teleporting in and then going through the cold field to get to me) are:

1) Speed

You have 30 seconds to attack my team, according to the videos. I maintain that due to the cold fields which slow Flash in the new 52 who is going ftl to human speeds, you will be only going at human speeds. I maintain that due to my scans of Thor's high-end feats, he can go FTL. You maintain that due to your scans of Thor's low-end feats, he can go hypersonic, and that most of that is derived from Mjolnir. I counter with my argument that he is blocking with Mjolnir, not swinging it to access its speed as he does when he travels universes. I also maintain that Blink has close to light-speed reactions in 616 New Mutants; she often blocks lightning bolts and energy beams so fast nobody else can even see them and with the doubled powers of the drug, it's even better.

2) Cosmic Cube vs Phoenix Fragment

I maintain that due to the Super Adaptoid vs Kubik fight, the Cosmic Ring is of equal power to the Cosmic Cube in the 15 foot radius. As your team HAS to get to mine by going through the 15 foot radius via anti-apparition barriers, I can use the feats of standard cosmic cube beings being nigh-omnipotent with the Cosmic Cube, and use that in the 15 foot radius as the super adaptoid vs kubik fight shows. I also give the extrapolation of the Phoenix Force vs Magus w/5 Cosmic Cubes to show that, pound for pound, the Cosmic Cube is stronger than the Phoenix Fragment without Telepathy. You maintain that I can't use feats from all Cosmic Cube beings and that as the Cosmic Ring has a smaller range, it has smaller power.

I leave it up to @esquire @diredrill and @jokergeist to determine who wins.

#48 Posted by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll vote tomorrow. *yawn*

#49 Posted by Dredeuced (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium

I am using feats from "standard" cosmic cube beings. Hell, I even used one from Kubik HIMSELF! The Super Adaptoid vs Kubik fight, as I've said a million times, shows that in its radius, the Cosmic Cube and Cosmic Ring are equally powerful! Thus I get those effects IN THE RADIUS!

There's no such thing as a standard cosmic cube being, really. There's no median version to draw upon. I just don't get why you scan dumped so many cosmic cube feats, attempting to say your guy can do things like supplant Eternity.

If you're going to determine power by division, infinity divided by 15 is still infinity. You said 'this extrapolation makes no sense' and 'i'm not using the phoenix force, only one member'. You said nothing about the cosmic ring vs cosmic cube. I am sorry if I misrepresent your argument.

...When did I say I was dividing? I scaled it down to 15 feet. You can't make a 20x20x20 foot block of wood because it'd be too big for the ring's radius. That's why it's scaled down.

Only one member is necessary to access the knowledge of the phoenix, considering Emma did it.

Channeling her power? Erm...no, not as far as I remember. And that's not Blink (whoops, kay, yeah, probably seemed like that). That's someone else with generic telepathy being like 'oh snap a lot of souls'.


I dunno, pretty much every showing of both Blink and AoA blink requires line of sight to teleport something -- even if it's just to create a portal like blink did with Spider-man 2099 or against Evil Hyperion. Until I get some context and what Blink's actually doing, I'm not sure what to make of the Necrosha scans.

I was talking about stuff from the New 52, which is the only one I've read. Sorry, I should have clarified that. Where, if I'm not mistaken, Captain Cold uses the cold field to...slow the Flash down to human speed.

I'm also the resident expert on New-52 Flash. Captain Cold no longer has his gun in New-52 -- he used a device to ingratiate his cold powers into his body to make himself a meta-human. When he was fighting Barry, Barry was limited in his speed because he, at the time, believed that going too fast would cause giant holes in time to tear open and endanger people. He was holding back the entire fight until he no longer had a choice -- he amped up his speed, wrecked Cold, and saved a boat full of people, but opened a giant tear in time (courtesy of Turbine messing with the Speed Force) in doing so. Later on, when he expels Turbine from the Speed Force, he no longer has this restriction. Not only does he run into Cold again, he defeats both him and Heatwave effortlessly while ignoring Cold's field. New-52 Barry has not fought anyone at light speeds yet (though he has demonstrated light speed abilities). If you have any confusion over Captain Cold or The Flash I'd be happy to inform you. It's my subject of expertise in comics.

Anti-apparition field. So you have 30 seconds to move, right? You have to get through a solid wall of Ragnaroks.

Which would be incredibly easy because my team is teleporting. Solid walls have never been a problem for Blink before. Also everyone on my team can fly, so they could just...fly over your 200 ragnaroks if we were somehow unable to teleport past them to engage your normal team.

You're doing that thing again where you refute me with no actual evidence to my proof-backed-claims. Go back and look at the scans.


I do not need evidence to prove that someone dodging an energy blast doesn't make them light speed. Do you want me to show you blink getting tagged by street levelers? You are trying to say that anyone who has dodged or blocked an energy blast necessarily has lightspeed reactions and combat speed -- I believe the premise is absurd because it would make every street leveler in comics history a lightspeeder.

I feel like the fact that we've literally just been going 'Creation Blades' 'Lightspeed' 'Phoenix Fragment' shows that you're only using two of your members here.

I'm pretty sure I've brought up the abilities of my other members, such as Zealot's Kusar Blades, Alita's precognition, Zazie's extensive gear, and yes, Blink's fragment and Nemesis' blades.

1) Speed

You have 30 seconds to attack my team, according to the videos. I maintain that due to the cold fields which slow Flash in the new 52 who is going ftl to human speeds, you will be only going at human speeds. I maintain that due to my scans of Thor's high-end feats, he can go FTL. You maintain that due to your scans of Thor's low-end feats, he can go hypersonic, and that most of that is derived from Mjolnir. I counter with my argument that he is blocking with Mjolnir, not swinging it to access its speed as he does when he travels universes.

The Cold Field isn't particularly large when you set it defensively. New 52 Flash defeated Cold quite handily while not going lightspeed in the slightest, and he was limited by the plot at the time to boot. Only one of your members would be "defended" by it(cold's defensive field doesn't stretch more than a few feet from his body) and even then, it specifically cannot stop someone moving at light speed. It can barely stop someone moving hypersonic.

The Thor topic has been done to death. No one in their right mind should think Thor has light speed combat speed. Also:

I also maintain that Blink has close to light-speed reactions in 616 New Mutants; she often blocks lightning bolts and energy beams so fast nobody else can even see them and with the doubled powers of the drug, it's even better.

Seriously, Spider-man has dodged lightning bolts and energy beams. Batman has dodged lightning bolts and energy beams. Aunt May has dodged energy beams. There is absolutely no way Blink is lightspeed in reaction, if she were she wouldn't get punched so much.

2) Cosmic Cube vs Phoenix Fragment

I maintain that due to the Super Adaptoid vs Kubik fight, the Cosmic Ring is of equal power to the Cosmic Cube in the 15 foot radius. As your team HAS to get to mine by going through the 15 foot radius via anti-apparition barriers, I can use the feats of standard cosmic cube beings being nigh-omnipotent with the Cosmic Cube, and use that in the 15 foot radius as the super adaptoid vs kubik fight shows. I also give the extrapolation of the Phoenix Force vs Magus w/5 Cosmic Cubes to show that, pound for pound, the Cosmic Cube is stronger than the Phoenix Fragment without Telepathy. You maintain that I can't use feats from all Cosmic Cube beings and that as the Cosmic Ring has a smaller range, it has smaller power.

Yes, and my team blitzes yours with a weapon that has specifically defeated a high tier reality warper before. Hell, Blink could just shoot the creation blade at Doc ock during the shard of lightning duration telekinetically and poof, he's done.

Yes, having a smaller radius necessarily means a smaller power. You couldn't create a planet with the ring because the planet would be too big to be inside the radius. You can't create other high tier cosmic artifacts with the ring because it's never shown to do as much -- I assume you can't create other cosmic rings to give to your other members or other high tier artifacts because that would seemingly circumvent the premise of the tournament. It has limited reality warping in a limited area. It's a handy tool and you've done your best to abuse it but my team is equipped to handle it. This isn't just the Phoenix Fragment vs the Cosmic Ring, it's my team vs yours and my team comes with tools to further facilitate the Phoenix Fragment's abilities -- which I have brought up to contest you. This debate does not boil down to us comparing our high tier artifacts and saying who wins. That'd be banal and defeats the purpose of our actual team constructing and debate skills.

#50 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium

I am using feats from "standard" cosmic cube beings. Hell, I even used one from Kubik HIMSELF! The Super Adaptoid vs Kubik fight, as I've said a million times, shows that in its radius, the Cosmic Cube and Cosmic Ring are equally powerful! Thus I get those effects IN THE RADIUS!

There's no such thing as a standard cosmic cube being, really. There's no median version to draw upon. I just don't get why you scan dumped so many cosmic cube feats, attempting to say your guy can do things like supplant Eternity.

Can we agree that Spock can at least do what Kubik did?

If you're going to determine power by division, infinity divided by 15 is still infinity. You said 'this extrapolation makes no sense' and 'i'm not using the phoenix force, only one member'. You said nothing about the cosmic ring vs cosmic cube. I am sorry if I misrepresent your argument.

...When did I say I was dividing? I scaled it down to 15 feet. You can't make a 20x20x20 foot block of wood because it'd be too big for the ring's radius. That's why it's scaled down.

Only one member is necessary to access the knowledge of the phoenix, considering Emma did it.

Channeling her power? Erm...no, not as far as I remember. And that's not Blink (whoops, kay, yeah, probably seemed like that). That's someone else with generic telepathy being like 'oh snap a lot of souls'.

I dunno, pretty much every showing of both Blink and AoA blink requires line of sight to teleport something -- even if it's just to create a portal like blink did with Spider-man 2099 or against Evil Hyperion. Until I get some context and what Blink's actually doing, I'm not sure what to make of the Necrosha scans.

It's been a really long time since Necrosha too, and there aren't enough scans out there for me to be satisfied either. I remember Selene being like 'more souls' and then that scan of a ton of people increasing Genosha's population -it is hypothetically possible that Blink just teleported to them and then back, though. Hmm...I'll try to dig up the scans.

I was talking about stuff from the New 52, which is the only one I've read. Sorry, I should have clarified that. Where, if I'm not mistaken, Captain Cold uses the cold field to...slow the Flash down to human speed.

I'm also the resident expert on New-52 Flash. Captain Cold no longer has his gun in New-52 -- he used a device to ingratiate his cold powers into his body to make himself a meta-human. When he was fighting Barry, Barry was limited in his speed because he, at the time, believed that going too fast would cause giant holes in time to tear open and endanger people. He was holding back the entire fight until he no longer had a choice -- he amped up his speed, wrecked Cold, and saved a boat full of people, but opened a giant tear in time (courtesy of Turbine messing with the Speed Force) in doing so. Later on, when he expels Turbine from the Speed Force, he no longer has this restriction. Not only does he run into Cold again, he defeats both him and Heatwave effortlessly while ignoring Cold's field. New-52 Barry has not fought anyone at light speeds yet (though he has demonstrated light speed abilities). If you have any confusion over Captain Cold or The Flash I'd be happy to inform you. It's my subject of expertise in comics.

I need to read the new 52. So does the cold field not work at all on anyone going light speed? That seems off, since according to @diredrill it's put in to counter the shard of lightning and amazo's light-speed capabilities.

Anti-apparition field. So you have 30 seconds to move, right? You have to get through a solid wall of Ragnaroks.

Which would be incredibly easy because my team is teleporting. Solid walls have never been a problem for Blink before. Also everyone on my team can fly, so they could just...fly over your 200 ragnaroks if we were somehow unable to teleport past them to engage your normal team.

You're doing that thing again where you refute me with no actual evidence to my proof-backed-claims. Go back and look at the scans.

I do not need evidence to prove that someone dodging an energy blast doesn't make them light speed. Do you want me to show you blink getting tagged by street levelers? You are trying to say that anyone who has dodged or blocked an energy blast necessarily has lightspeed reactions and combat speed -- I believe the premise is absurd because it would make every street leveler in comics history a lightspeeder.

I feel like the fact that we've literally just been going 'Creation Blades' 'Lightspeed' 'Phoenix Fragment' shows that you're only using two of your members here.

I'm pretty sure I've brought up the abilities of my other members, such as Zealot's Kusar Blades, Alita's precognition, Zazie's extensive gear, and yes, Blink's fragment and Nemesis' blades.

1) Speed

You have 30 seconds to attack my team, according to the videos. I maintain that due to the cold fields which slow Flash in the new 52 who is going ftl to human speeds, you will be only going at human speeds. I maintain that due to my scans of Thor's high-end feats, he can go FTL. You maintain that due to your scans of Thor's low-end feats, he can go hypersonic, and that most of that is derived from Mjolnir. I counter with my argument that he is blocking with Mjolnir, not swinging it to access its speed as he does when he travels universes.

The Cold Field isn't particularly large when you set it defensively. New 52 Flash defeated Cold quite handily while not going lightspeed in the slightest, and he was limited by the plot at the time to boot. Only one of your members would be "defended" by it(cold's defensive field doesn't stretch more than a few feet from his body) and even then, it specifically cannot stop someone moving at light speed. It can barely stop someone moving hypersonic.

Reality warp! Cold field at the edge of the bubble. I'm sure it slows them down; the logic of it slowing down molecules and reducing speed is...pretty good.

The Thor topic has been done to death. No one in their right mind should think Thor has light speed combat speed. Also:

I also maintain that Blink has close to light-speed reactions in 616 New Mutants; she often blocks lightning bolts and energy beams so fast nobody else can even see them and with the doubled powers of the drug, it's even better.

Seriously, Spider-man has dodged lightning bolts and energy beams. Batman has dodged lightning bolts and energy beams. Aunt May has dodged energy beams. There is absolutely no way Blink is lightspeed in reaction, if she were she wouldn't get punched so much.

Blink's actually pretty much never been hit in New Mutants as I can remember though I've only read 6 issues. Her only weakness is that she's useless unless someone fires at her -which nobody does because they're not dumb and mainly recurring villains.

2) Cosmic Cube vs Phoenix Fragment

I maintain that due to the Super Adaptoid vs Kubik fight, the Cosmic Ring is of equal power to the Cosmic Cube in the 15 foot radius. As your team HAS to get to mine by going through the 15 foot radius via anti-apparition barriers, I can use the feats of standard cosmic cube beings being nigh-omnipotent with the Cosmic Cube, and use that in the 15 foot radius as the super adaptoid vs kubik fight shows. I also give the extrapolation of the Phoenix Force vs Magus w/5 Cosmic Cubes to show that, pound for pound, the Cosmic Cube is stronger than the Phoenix Fragment without Telepathy. You maintain that I can't use feats from all Cosmic Cube beings and that as the Cosmic Ring has a smaller range, it has smaller power.

Yes, and my team blitzes yours with a weapon that has specifically defeated a high tier reality warper before. Hell, Blink could just shoot the creation blade at Doc ock during the shard of lightning duration telekinetically and poof, he's done.

Yes, having a smaller radius necessarily means a smaller power. You couldn't create a planet with the ring because the planet would be too big to be inside the radius. You can't create other high tier cosmic artifacts with the ring because it's never shown to do as much -- I assume you can't create other cosmic rings to give to your other members or other high tier artifacts because that would seemingly circumvent the premise of the tournament. It has limited reality warping in a limited area. It's a handy tool and you've done your best to abuse it but my team is equipped to handle it. This isn't just the Phoenix Fragment vs the Cosmic Ring, it's my team vs yours and my team comes with tools to further facilitate the Phoenix Fragment's abilities -- which I have brought up to contest you. This debate does not boil down to us comparing our high tier artifacts and saying who wins. That'd be banal and defeats the purpose of our actual team constructing and debate skills.

This has been mostly done to death -I have the same power WITHIN THE RADIUS. You have never refuted the logic of the Super Adaptoid vs Kubik fight and you will never be able to. It proves that my Cosmic Ring is equal to Kubik, and the Mephisto scan proves Kubik and all other cosmic cube beings (reece and the beyonder are really weird and IDK about them) are equal in power. Might I remind you, when Kubik had his limits off he reality-warped away an entire UNIVERSE? For all intents and purposes this is a standard Cosmic Cube, so I can use Reed's feat of taking away the Power Cosmic. You didn't answer the Phoenix Fragment vs Magus extrapolation. For all intents and purposes, I am omnipotent within my 15 foot by 15 foot bubble -I have chosen the best possible user of the Cosmic Ring so that I have 200 copies of Thor with me, chosen Kenji Uedo to make everyone immune to telepathy, chosen a teleporter to teleport a team into my bubble if they are unwilling, etc etc etc. And I don't believe the Shard of Lightning applies to thrown objects, so those Creation Blades are out.

@diredrill:

Okay then. I don't appreciate you not answering me the first five times I asked if I could, but alright.