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#1 Posted by lordraiden (7013 posts) - - Show Bio

Can Pre-Retcon Beyonder defeat the likes of the archangels Lucifer and Michael (w/demiurgic power from the vertigo universe) with the presence fully backing them? Can Lucifer trick beyonder from his omnipotence as was done to him during the first secret wars?

                                                       

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#2 Posted by King Saturn (224025 posts) - - Show Bio
Lucifer is a Master Manipulator... if the issue is can Lucifer trick Beyonder out of his Omnipotent Powers... then yes he could do it... but in an all out fight... Beyonder would kill both Lucifer and Micheal...
#3 Posted by lordraiden (7013 posts) - - Show Bio
King Saturn said:
"Lucifer is a Master Manipulator... if the issue is can Lucifer trick Beyonder out of his Omnipotent Powers... then yes he could do it... but in an all out fight... Beyonder would kill both Lucifer and Micheal...
"

I honestly don't think it'd be that easy! These would be the only pair I personally think who have enough firepower of their own to not get obliterated outright, and as you stated, it's just a matter of how long it takes for Lucifer to start manipulating Beyonder.
#4 Posted by King Saturn (224025 posts) - - Show Bio
lordraiden said:
"King Saturn said:
"Lucifer is a Master Manipulator... if the issue is can Lucifer trick Beyonder out of his Omnipotent Powers... then yes he could do it... but in an all out fight... Beyonder would kill both Lucifer and Micheal...
"

I honestly don't think it'd be that easy! These would be the only pair I personally think who have enough firepower of their own to not get obliterated outright, and as you stated, it's just a matter of how long it takes for Lucifer to start manipulating Beyonder."
I dont think it would be easy either... but Lucifer is Lucifer... he is the Master of Manipulation... he should be able to trick Beyonder out of his powers... but if  it did  come down to an all out battle Lucifer and Michael would lose... I just dont think they equal up to what Beyonder was capable of during the Secret Wars... 
#5 Posted by lordraiden (7013 posts) - - Show Bio
King Saturn said:
"lordraiden said:
"King Saturn said:
"Lucifer is a Master Manipulator... if the issue is can Lucifer trick Beyonder out of his Omnipotent Powers... then yes he could do it... but in an all out fight... Beyonder would kill both Lucifer and Micheal...
"

I honestly don't think it'd be that easy! These would be the only pair I personally think who have enough firepower of their own to not get obliterated outright, and as you stated, it's just a matter of how long it takes for Lucifer to start manipulating Beyonder."
I dont think it would be easy either... but Lucifer is Lucifer... he is the Master of Manipulation... he should be able to trick Beyonder out of his powers... but if  it did  come down to an all out battle Lucifer and Michael would lose... I just dont think they equal up to what Beyonder was capable of during the Secret Wars...  "

Hmmm, but do you have anything to prove that, or is that just your opinion on how youu see the Beyonder? Don't forget, Lucifer already rebelled against the presence (and obviously lost) of his reality, now, after more than a millinea, you have Lucifer, who's alot more powerfull and wiser, backed by his brother, Michael with his demoguic power and their presence backing them! So, i'm not saying Beyonder can't do it, but his powers and himself will be put to the test :-)
#6 Posted by King Saturn (224025 posts) - - Show Bio
lordraiden said:
"King Saturn said:
"lordraiden said:
"King Saturn said:
"Lucifer is a Master Manipulator... if the issue is can Lucifer trick Beyonder out of his Omnipotent Powers... then yes he could do it... but in an all out fight... Beyonder would kill both Lucifer and Micheal...
"

I honestly don't think it'd be that easy! These would be the only pair I personally think who have enough firepower of their own to not get obliterated outright, and as you stated, it's just a matter of how long it takes for Lucifer to start manipulating Beyonder."
I dont think it would be easy either... but Lucifer is Lucifer... he is the Master of Manipulation... he should be able to trick Beyonder out of his powers... but if  it did  come down to an all out battle Lucifer and Michael would lose... I just dont think they equal up to what Beyonder was capable of during the Secret Wars...  "

Hmmm, but do you have anything to prove that, or is that just your opinion on how youu see the Beyonder? Don't forget, Lucifer already rebelled against the presence (and obviously lost) of his reality, now, after more than a millinea, you have Lucifer, who's alot more powerfull and wiser, backed by his brother, Michael with his demoguic power and their presence backing them! So, i'm not saying Beyonder can't do it, but his powers and himself will be put to the test :-)"
Classic Beyonder's power is above The Living Tribunal... he basically is The Presence when you think about it... and even though Lucifer and Micheal are Virtual Omnipotent beings... they are not beyond the Boundaries of Reality of there Actualities in the DC/Vertigo Universe... but Classic Beyonder is



#7 Posted by lordraiden (7013 posts) - - Show Bio
King Saturn said:
"lordraiden said:
"King Saturn said:
"lordraiden said:
"King Saturn said:
"Lucifer is a Master Manipulator... if the issue is can Lucifer trick Beyonder out of his Omnipotent Powers... then yes he could do it... but in an all out fight... Beyonder would kill both Lucifer and Micheal...
"

I honestly don't think it'd be that easy! These would be the only pair I personally think who have enough firepower of their own to not get obliterated outright, and as you stated, it's just a matter of how long it takes for Lucifer to start manipulating Beyonder."
I dont think it would be easy either... but Lucifer is Lucifer... he is the Master of Manipulation... he should be able to trick Beyonder out of his powers... but if  it did  come down to an all out battle Lucifer and Michael would lose... I just dont think they equal up to what Beyonder was capable of during the Secret Wars...  "

Hmmm, but do you have anything to prove that, or is that just your opinion on how youu see the Beyonder? Don't forget, Lucifer already rebelled against the presence (and obviously lost) of his reality, now, after more than a millinea, you have Lucifer, who's alot more powerfull and wiser, backed by his brother, Michael with his demoguic power and their presence backing them! So, i'm not saying Beyonder can't do it, but his powers and himself will be put to the test :-)"
Classic Beyonder's power is above The Living Tribunal... he basically is The Presence when you think about it... and even though Lucifer and Micheal are Virtual Omnipotent beings... they are not beyond the Boundaries of Reality of there Actualities in the DC/Vertigo Universe... but Classic Beyonder is



"

True, but i'd put Lucifer & Michael  together above LT! (heck, i'd put them above LT on their own, as they're directly under the Presence! Well, Michael with his demurgic power definately)
#8 Posted by King Saturn (224025 posts) - - Show Bio
I dont know if Lucifer or Micheal are above the Living Tribunal... they basically have the same powers and sit in the same position in the repective actualities... but even if they were... Classic Molecule Man was above the Living Tribunal during the Secret Wars too... and he could not handle the Beyonder... now if Lucifer and Michael's combined powers probably could do something... but there is no guarantee for that
#9 Posted by lordraiden (7013 posts) - - Show Bio
King Saturn said:
"I dont know if Lucifer or Micheal are above the Living Tribunal... they basically have the same powers and sit in the same position in the repective actualities... but even if they were... Classic Molecule Man was above the Living Tribunal during the Secret Wars too... and he could not handle the Beyonder... now if Lucifer and Michael's combined powers probably could do something... but there is no guarantee for that
"

No, there never is a guarentee :-)
#10 Posted by chunjacktao (334 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer takes beyonder. 
 
Lucifer only second to god.
#11 Posted by GamorasBigDaddy (2818 posts) - - Show Bio
@chunjacktao said:
"Lucifer takes beyonder.  Lucifer only second to god. "

No he does'nt!  
He;s not even above LT, let alone PR Beyonder. 
 
Agree he has enough power to defeat both but like others said Lucifer's Manipulation could get them the win... 
 
GBD
#12 Edited by Pr_Beyonder (2440 posts) - - Show Bio

Remember Beyonder's(me) omniscient  so..he would  get tricked out of his powers without having a sure fire way of getting them back like he did with Dr. Doom.(Since  he knows past,present,and future:P)...but then again  that's my veiw of Lucifer's attempt of tricking Beyonder.
#13 Posted by SilverSentry (2481 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pr_Beyonder said:
" Remember Beyonder's omniscient  so..he would  get tricked out of his powers without having a sure fire way of getting them back like he did with Dr. Doom.(Since  he knows past,present,and future:P)...but then again  that's my veiw of Lucifer's attempt of tricking Beyonder. "
I think that sounds right it would take their combined power to stand from not getting destroyed based on what beyonder has done my opinion thought.
#14 Edited by Pr_Beyonder (2440 posts) - - Show Bio
@SilverSentry:
 Agreed but since this is Pre-recton Beyonder(me) I think it would also  depend if I decided to erase them from existance like that space armada  and death as an other example..or just play with  them like I  did with the Celestials
   

 
" I think that sounds right it would take their combined power to stand from not getting destroyed based on what beyonder has done my opinion thought."
    
 
 

#15 Edited by Pr_Beyonder (2440 posts) - - Show Bio

Im not sure if  I can do this but I have a really good reference of my feats to post.
#16 Posted by GT-Man (4054 posts) - - Show Bio

b
#17 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio
@chunjacktao said:
" Lucifer takes beyonder.  Lucifer only second to god. "

#18 Posted by bumnut (1789 posts) - - Show Bio
@Primmaster64 said:
" @chunjacktao said:
" Lucifer takes beyonder.  Lucifer only second to god. "
"

Well, there's Michael, who'm i'd consider second to God, so, there can only be one second.  I'd place Lucifer as third under the Presence.
#19 Posted by SilverSentry (2481 posts) - - Show Bio

But wasn't beyonder basically the only thing in his existence making him god in his own right. not to be misinterpreted

#20 Posted by capall (8278 posts) - - Show Bio

pre recton beyonder is omnipotent, having two nigh omnipotent beings won't be able to win here

#21 Posted by SilverSentry (2481 posts) - - Show Bio
@capall said:
" pre recton beyonder is omnipotent, having two nigh omnipotent beings won't be able to win here "
Exactly he wins unless he says they win or orders himself destroyed .
#22 Posted by chriskalaani (239 posts) - - Show Bio

if you think about it the combined power of lucifer and mike pretty much equals god. lucifer can create anything out of something and michael can create something out of nothing. this is basically the power of beyonder, he can do whatever he wants. its close but i say stalemate

#23 Edited by superboyprimeonejillion (22 posts) - - Show Bio

As a comment earlier said, Lucifer and Michael are merely nigh omnipotent. Pre-Retcon Beyonder is equal to TOAA. I don't see why The Beyonder can't make himself omniscient. Anyways, Beyonder stomps.

@chriskalaani said:

if you think about it the combined power of lucifer and mike pretty much equals god. lucifer can create anything out of something and michael can create something out of nothing. this is basically the power of beyonder, he can do whatever he wants. its close but i say stalemate

I'm afraid that can't apply here. Omnipotence is on a TOTALLY different scale than nigh omnipotence. You can't even comprehend the power of a completely limitless being. Anyways, it'd be nice if we could do simplify this to something such as (omnipotence = 1, nigh omnipotence = 5.) .5 + .5 = 1, but I'm afraid it's more complicated than that.

#24 Posted by AssertingValor (5391 posts) - - Show Bio

PR Beyonder should have minimal problem

#25 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordMaverick said:

PR Beyonder should have minimal problem

#26 Posted by Bo88gdan (4397 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@LordMaverick said:

PR Beyonder should have minimal problem

#27 Posted by protectyournose (908 posts) - - Show Bio

Which Michael is this?

#28 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

Beyonder wins...

#29 Posted by Guardian_of_Gravity (2979 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre retcon beyonder was absolutely omnipotent, the equal of the one above all. Lucifer and Micheal are on the Tribunal's level at best. Which effectively means that they give Beyonder their sunday best, do all of jack and squat, then get erased from existence when the all powerful disco dancer blinks.

#30 Edited by Rijehu (517 posts) - - Show Bio

Logic here is so flawed. Beyonder was not the ultimate being. The point of TOAA being TOAA is that he is INDEED THE ONE ABOVE ALL. Beyonder was just some insanely powerful guy from another realm of existence where he may have been the God THERE, but not in all of MU. He was millions of times more stronger than than the Multiverse combined, including abstracts and LT, which I still question. Even so, TOAA is INFINITELY more powerful than the all of existence in MU. That is the point of him being GOD. All of creation, all verses, even abstracts and LT, infinitely combined, multiplied an infinite amount of times, would still not be greater than TOAA because he is meant to be truly supreme.

Using the Logic of some people, I could just as easily say that Michael and Lucifer are equal to The Presence since they are LITERALLY his Power (Mikey) and his Will (Lucy). The two of them created creation itself. Individually, they are Nigh Omnipotent as Michael can not manipulate that which he creates from nothing, and Lucifer can not create from nothing, but can manipulate creation itself. Michael created all Cosmos, Dimensions, Time, Space, Matter, Anti-matter, Reality, Non-reality, Ideas, Concepts, and everything in between and beyond, with a gesture of his hands. Lucifer then willed ALL of creation into existence and gave shape to everything. As such, Michael's death would undo creation if the Demiurge was released. Together they are omnipotent in the aspect that they can literally do ANYTHING at that point. They can create Infinite Multiverses and because they created all abstracts, they are above even Death since she too was created by them. Even with the unlimited power they possess, Lucifer and Michael are still NOWHERE near the power of The Presence. Once again, TP is infinitely stronger that Creation, infinitely multiplied. Michael and Lucifer have God's power, just not his Power LEVEL. That means that they can do what God can do, just nowhere near the extent of which God can do it. Same with Beyonder and TOAA.

Lucifer and Michael are second to God, period. And that excuse about "They would be powerless in MU" is false because they embody God's Power and Will. It is embedded in everything they are. It is who they are. You can not separate them from Gods' power because they are instruments of his power. The power is one with them. They carry it wherever they go.

I can't speak for everyone but I have no reason to believe that Beyonder is more powerful than the Will and Power of The Presence, who as far as we know, is equal to TOAA, who is supreme to MU, including Beyonder. I'm not saying that the brothers stomp, but since there is no way to kill them outside of their own wishes, and even then both have come back from Death. I don't see Beyonder stomping either. People underestimate the brothers. Existing before creation is a pretty big feat if you ask me. Beyonder was God of his realm, but even I have not heard of him existing in nothingness. Yeah he killed Death of MU but that doesn't matter to beings who created Death. Yes he may destroy multiverses but that does not phase Lucifer or Michael, who made creation, which multiverses exist within. Lucifer even tanked a point blank creation ending blast without flinching. He was even capable of destroying the embodiment of Death without a potion might I add.

Beyonder is a beast, I give him that, but unless he is greater than The Presence's Absolute Power, and Absolute Will, I doubt if he stomps. I say stalemate at best. In plus Beyonder was a big nigh omnipotent idiot. Michael and definitely Lucifer is far beyond him in that department. Michael + Lucifer = Infinite Power to create, manipulate, and Destroy. Anything less than TRUE omnipotence has a serious fight on their hands.

#31 Posted by green_skaar (4415 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre retcon beyonder was absolutely omnipotent, the equal of the one above all. Lucifer and Micheal are on the Tribunal's level at best. Which effectively means that they give Beyonder their sunday best, do all of jack and squat, then get erased from existence when the all powerful disco dancer blinks.

#32 Posted by Baron_von_Santa (4280 posts) - - Show Bio

if the beyonder is omniscient, then he wins. if he is only omnipotent, then he loses.

#34 Posted by Baron_von_Santa (4280 posts) - - Show Bio

@blazinghell: someone said he is omniscient, though he did not show it. if your right, then lucifer wins easily, but Michael loses

#36 Posted by eternityx (2693 posts) - - Show Bio

Beyonder stomps

#37 Edited by Baron_von_Santa (4280 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternityx: he is omnipotent, but not omniscient. lucifer solo stomps with ease using not his power, but his mind. he knows they can not hope to defeat him straight on.

#38 Edited by eternityx (2693 posts) - - Show Bio
#39 Edited by Baron_von_Santa (4280 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternityx: just a simple sentence with absolutely nada feats to back it up. good job bro

#40 Edited by eternityx (2693 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternityx: just a simple sentence with absolutely nada feats to back it up. good job bro

He's omnipotent, so it's well within his power to blink him out of existence.

#41 Posted by Baron_von_Santa (4280 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternityx: but not omniscient. he is a powerful but dim witted person, and lucifer has tricked people far smarter than beyonder before.

#42 Posted by eternityx (2693 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternityx: but not omniscient. he is a powerful but dim witted person, and lucifer has tricked people far smarter than beyonder before.

He's omnipotent so he can just give himself omniscience. He doesn't need it though, you don't need to be omniscient to know how to blink.

#43 Posted by JwwProd (9139 posts) - - Show Bio

Beyonder.

#44 Posted by Baron_von_Santa (4280 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternityx: he got tricked by de doom, he gets melancholy, he gets angry... omniscient? i think not. Beyonder was even tinkering with the marvel universe was so that he could EXPERIENCE AND LEARN. Why would an omniscient being need experience? as @blazinghell so put it.

#45 Posted by OfficialRikudouSennin (631 posts) - - Show Bio

yeah Beyonder is Omniponent here

#46 Posted by eternityx (2693 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternityx: he got tricked by de doom, he gets melancholy, he gets angry... omniscient? i think not. Beyonder was even tinkering with the marvel universe was so that he could EXPERIENCE AND LEARN. Why would an omniscient being need experience? as @blazinghell so put it.

He did get tricked but that's because he wasn't in a battle against Doom like he is here against Lucifer.

#47 Edited by Baron_von_Santa (4280 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternityx: Lucifer has manipulated a demon sent to kill him into someone who would gladly sacrifice herself twice for him. and the get tricked part is a counter to your beyonder is omniscient post. if he got tricked, then he is not.

#48 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16721 posts) - - Show Bio

In a straight out fight, I'd say there's no clear answer to characters above LT.

Other than that, Lucifer can outsmart him, considering beyonder's lack of.. intelligence? So going with lucifer and michael.