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#1 Posted by brainiac 1.0 (4150 posts) - - Show Bio
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Nobody is holding back.  Beta Ray Bill has his hammer.  Who wins and why.
#2 Posted by Nitric (948 posts) - - Show Bio

Beta Ray Bill Wins, For All The Advantages He Has Over Bizzaro.

#3 Posted by King Saturn (223812 posts) - - Show Bio
Well if Bizarro is actually going at Beta Ray Bill at full force he could beat Beta Ray Bill but it wont be easy.  Bizarro is faster and stronger physically than Beta Ray Bill though I am not sure if BIzarro can withstand the power Beta Ray Bill through the force of his hammer... I wont say Bizarro wins here but this is a close fight.
#4 Posted by The_Martian (36980 posts) - - Show Bio
brainiac 1.0 said:
"Nobody is holding back.  Beta Ray Bill has his hammer.  Who wins and why."

First I wanted to say this makes me sound really awsome:P

Second Beta Ray Bills only chance is that Bizzaro is an idiot. I'm not sure thats enough though.
#5 Posted by Ace High (625 posts) - - Show Bio

Beta Ray has been Thor twice. Once with the hammer once without. He hit Galactus hard enough to dent his armour and beat thumped his herald at the time (Stardust). He definately isn't lacking in power compared to Bizarro. That coupled with the fact that Bizarro is an idiot means that Beta Ray would thump him to.

#6 Posted by King Saturn (223812 posts) - - Show Bio
Ace High said:
"Beta Ray has been Thor twice. Once with the hammer once without. He hit Galactus hard enough to dent his armour and beat thumped his herald at the time (Stardust). He definately isn't lacking in power compared to Bizarro. That coupled with the fact that Bizarro is an idiot means that Beta Ray would thump him to.
"
Beta Ray Bill has the advantage of power with the hammer. Without the hammer he is in trouble against Bizarro... if Bizarro actually pulls his head out of his azz for the fight.  Beta Ray Bill cant physically match up with BIzarro without the hammer...
#7 Posted by Ace High (625 posts) - - Show Bio

I meant Thor had his hammer and then didn't. The first time they fought Beta Ray beat him and took the hammer and became the Beta Ray in the picture. Then Odin said well you can only have the hammer if you beat Thor again in a un armed fight and he did. Then he got given Stormbreaker as a result and Thor kept his own hammer. If he can beat Thor then I am pretty sure he can take Bizarro. How many people do you know that can do this?

How many mortals indeed.

























































#8 Posted by King Saturn (223812 posts) - - Show Bio
I dont know if Thor is as physically as strong and fast as Bizarro without the Hammer...
#9 Posted by Ace High (625 posts) - - Show Bio

I didn't say he was I am just saying that Beta Ray Bill was on Thor's level even before he got his hammer.

#10 Posted by zee crusher (8997 posts) - - Show Bio

King Saturn said:

"I dont know if Thor is as physically as strong and fast as Bizarro without the Hammer...
"

@ king Satun: You do realize Thors hammer doesn't even amp up his strength. When he broke the adamntium allow cables wrapped around him he needed no hammer. When he used his finger to guaged another uru hammer from a uru boulder he obviously didn't have his hammer. When he broke unbreakable chains while brain washed by loki he used his bare hands. Lastly when he pulled the midgard serpent by line it had bo hands on that line. The only thing the hammer does is amplify his blast. Thor doesn't need the hammer to be strong he is naturally strong.


You guys are serious about this?? Beta ray bill is stronger Then Thor. Bizzaro is stronger then superman. Thor is stronger then superman. If beta ray bill is stronger then Thor who is stronger then Superman he has the advantage in strength.

In speed where the hell are you guys getting this speed from?? When will bizzaro be smart enough to use his speed. His idea of all out if just keep hitting till you get tired not let me use my blitzing ability. If we say he will blitz then we might as well say beta ray bill has the ultimate nulifier. 

Plus with out his hammer you guys seem to be forgetting he beat Thor who has those many years of training. Beta ray bill does't need his hammer in this type of fight he would only use fist as it is unless he wants to kill him. With or with out his hammer it be no problem.

#11 Posted by King Saturn (223812 posts) - - Show Bio
Ace High said:
"I didn't say he was I am just saying that Beta Ray Bill was on Thor's level even before he got his hammer.
"
Ah Very Well

zee crusher said:
"

King Saturn said:

"I dont know if Thor is as physically as strong and fast as Bizarro without the Hammer...
"

@ king Satun: You do realize Thors hammer doesn't even amp up his strength. When he broke the adamntium allow cables wrapped around him he needed no hammer. When he used his finger to guaged another uru hammer from a uru boulder he obviously didn't have his hammer. When he broke unbreakable chains while brain washed by loki he used his bare hands. Lastly when he pulled the midgard serpent by line it had bo hands on that line. The only thing the hammer does is amplify his blast. Thor doesn't need the hammer to be strong he is naturally strong.


You guys are serious about this?? Beta ray bill is stronger Then Thor. Bizzaro is stronger then superman. Thor is stronger then superman. If beta ray bill is stronger then Thor who is stronger then Superman he has the advantage in strength.

In speed where the hell are you guys getting this speed from?? When will bizzaro be smart enough to use his speed. His idea of all out if just keep hitting till you get tired not let me use my blitzing ability. If we say he will blitz then we might as well say beta ray bill has the ultimate nulifier. 

Plus with out his hammer you guys seem to be forgetting he beat Thor who has those many years of training. Beta ray bill does't need his hammer in this type of fight he would only use fist as it is unless he wants to kill him. With or with out his hammer it be no problem.

"
Bizarro has the raw ability of Superman in essence.  Like I said in an earlier post, if Bizarro can pull his head out of his azz fir the fight Beta Ray Bill is in trouble.  Otherwise Bizarro wont be able to utilize the abilities that he will need to win here.  But as far as who is stronger. Well... I will just leave that alone for now.

#12 Posted by Vance Astro (91113 posts) - - Show Bio

Beta Ray Bill.

Moderator
#13 Posted by zee crusher (8997 posts) - - Show Bio
King Saturn said:
"Ace High said:
"I didn't say he was I am just saying that Beta Ray Bill was on Thor's level even before he got his hammer.
"
Ah Very Well

zee crusher said:
"

King Saturn said:

"I dont know if Thor is as physically as strong and fast as Bizarro without the Hammer...
"

@ king Satun: You do realize Thors hammer doesn't even amp up his strength. When he broke the adamntium allow cables wrapped around him he needed no hammer. When he used his finger to guaged another uru hammer from a uru boulder he obviously didn't have his hammer. When he broke unbreakable chains while brain washed by loki he used his bare hands. Lastly when he pulled the midgard serpent by line it had bo hands on that line. The only thing the hammer does is amplify his blast. Thor doesn't need the hammer to be strong he is naturally strong.


You guys are serious about this?? Beta ray bill is stronger Then Thor. Bizzaro is stronger then superman. Thor is stronger then superman. If beta ray bill is stronger then Thor who is stronger then Superman he has the advantage in strength.

In speed where the hell are you guys getting this speed from?? When will bizzaro be smart enough to use his speed. His idea of all out if just keep hitting till you get tired not let me use my blitzing ability. If we say he will blitz then we might as well say beta ray bill has the ultimate nulifier. 

Plus with out his hammer you guys seem to be forgetting he beat Thor who has those many years of training. Beta ray bill does't need his hammer in this type of fight he would only use fist as it is unless he wants to kill him. With or with out his hammer it be no problem.

"
Bizarro has the raw ability of Superman in essence.  Like I said in an earlier post, if Bizarro can pull his head out of his azz fir the fight Beta Ray Bill is in trouble.  Otherwise Bizarro wont be able to utilize the abilities that he will need to win here.  But as far as who is stronger. Well... I will just leave that alone for now.

"

Thats true but bizzaro being as dumb as he is this fight won't be any different. If he were to turn normal and be smart he'd be superman and this would be a superman not holding back vs brb.
#14 Posted by Vance Astro (91113 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
"Beta Ray Bill."

Moderator
#15 Posted by the creator (8560 posts) - - Show Bio

Bizzaro wins in a straight forward sluggathon.

#16 Posted by Ace High (625 posts) - - Show Bio

Really? Against someone that can crack Galactus' shell with sheer force alone? I mean in the JLA/Avengers story Thor and Superman were roughly evens and Beta Ray Bill is stronger than Thor. After he cracked Galactus' shell he beats Stardust then she unleashes a hell beast named Astaroth that was imprisoned by Galactus who Stardust states is near his level of power and then he beats him/she/it as well. I mean Bizzaro is "meant to be" as strong as Superman but everytime I seen him he catches a beat down.

#17 Posted by zee crusher (8997 posts) - - Show Bio
Ace High said:
"Really? Against someone that can crack Galactus' shell with sheer force alone? I mean in the JLA/Avengers story Thor and Superman were roughly evens and Beta Ray Bill is stronger than Thor. After he cracked Galactus' shell he beats Stardust then she unleashes a hell beast named Astaroth that was imprisoned by Galactus who Stardust states is near his level of power and then he beats him/she/it as well. I mean Bizzaro is "meant to be" as strong as Superman but everytime I seen him he catches a beat down.
"
See your right. Creator doesn't know comic book characters as well and probably can't give a good explantion here so don't believe him. Bizzaro loses here he's to dumb an not strong enough if he can't beat superman how does he expect to beat beta ray bill who is stronger then Thor. Thor is stronger then superman. Simple as that.
#18 Posted by Gottheit (3473 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh, I gotta go with Horseface here. Frankly, Both characters I like immensely, but honestly, Bizzaro holding back and Bizzaro actually using intelligence in the fight is two different things. Frankly, I don't know much about Bizarro, though. Does he know how to fight, or does he just throw his fists around?

#19 Posted by zee crusher (8997 posts) - - Show Bio
Gottheit said:
"Oh, I gotta go with Horseface here. Frankly, Both characters I like immensely, but honestly, Bizzaro holding back and Bizzaro actually using intelligence in the fight is two different things. Frankly, I don't know much about Bizarro, though. Does he know how to fight, or does he just throw his fists around?
"
Exactly. For some odd reason people think bizzaro will grow int in this fight and even blitz. If that was the case wouldn't this be dark superman vs BRB and he'd still lose.  Your right all he does know how to do is throw fist around it won't help much against a guy who could hit you with enough force to kill fenris wolf.
#20 Posted by Gottheit (3473 posts) - - Show Bio

But, I mean, I'm not well versed enough in either combatant. Zee, has Beta Ray been taught how to fight? Like, does he understand the various martial arts of fighting with his hammer, or does he just zap people and swing it around? I need details, man.

#21 Posted by zee crusher (8997 posts) - - Show Bio
Gottheit said:
"But, I mean, I'm not well versed enough in either combatant. Zee, has Beta Ray been taught how to fight? Like, does he understand the various martial arts of fighting with his hammer, or does he just zap people and swing it around? I need details, man.
"

Simple beta ray bill is like wolverine. He was a vicious fighter and chosen for and experiement that amped him up. Hs fighter skills are so good on his first encounter with Thor he beat him. Second encounter now watched by odin he beat Thor  again. Thor has thousands of years of fighting. If beta ray bill can beat Thor with no hammer it can be assumed he does as well. He is stronger but still he doesn't just zap he's been known to use his hands in battle and hammer. But for some odd reason people have the idea him and Thor need there hammer for there amazing strength.

As for bizzaro he's a stronger but very very dumber version of superman.
#22 Posted by Gottheit (3473 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm. Let's pretend that Bizzaro and Beta Ray Bill are at the same strength and speed, because if we try and get into a whole, "No, BRB's stronger because," nothing is going to be solved, because no one will ever be square on who between Thor and Supes is stronger, and I imagine that would go out to people who are made to be just like Thor and Supes. So, just for the sake of argument, let's pretend. Pretend, that in terms of strength, and speed, and reflexes, Bizarro and BRB are the same. Ok? What I think this will come down to is Beta Ray Bill simply for the reason that Beta would think, and maneuver, and...crap. I just realized I don't know where they are fighting. Is this an aerial battle?

#23 Posted by zee crusher (8997 posts) - - Show Bio
Gottheit said:
"Hmm. Let's pretend that Bizzaro and Beta Ray Bill are at the same strength and speed, because if we try and get into a whole, "No, BRB's stronger because," nothing is going to be solved, because no one will ever be square on who between Thor and Supes is stronger, and I imagine that would go out to people who are made to be just like Thor and Supes. So, just for the sake of argument, let's pretend. Pretend, that in terms of strength, and speed, and reflexes, Bizarro and BRB are the same. Ok? What I think this will come down to is Beta Ray Bill simply for the reason that Beta would think, and maneuver, and...crap. I just realized I don't know where they are fighting. Is this an aerial battle?
"

Chances are it may not be arieal. If this battle is the way you say it is I'd still give it to brb. Mostly because bizzaro won't dodge the hits but will try and get in as many as possible. BRB will have ever use his warrior skills and probably if he gets the chance show him how a godblast feels like.
#24 Posted by the creator (8560 posts) - - Show Bio
"Ace High said:
"Really? Against someone that can crack Galactus' shell with sheer force alone? I mean in the JLA/Avengers story Thor and Superman were roughly evens and Beta Ray Bill is stronger than Thor. After he cracked Galactus' shell he beats Stardust then she unleashes a hell beast named Astaroth that was imprisoned by Galactus who Stardust states is near his level of power and then he beats him/she/it as well. I mean Bizzaro is "meant to be" as strong as Superman but everytime I seen him he catches a beat down.
"
Other beings have been shown to crack and shatter Galactus's armour. It's primary function is not protyection but to help in his energy absorption when he feeds on planets (regulating the energy flow I think).

In the Avengers/JLA crossover, no matter what anyone else says one fact is clear, Superman beat Thor. They were not the same and that was refelcted in the comment made by Superman (power dials going up to 11)
Could Bizzaro do the same or repeat this feat against BRB. Yes I think so as the fight shown in that crossover was a straight forward sluggathon, with limited tactical thinking from both sides. Yes, the minds of some of the combatants were being influenced but the victory still holds.

I have the mini series you refer to but I question if in the final confrontation that Astaroth had her /it's full power when it assumed the final form for the combat.

As for Bizarro being a strong as Superman, that may be a miassumption. Bizarro would have been as strong as Superman when he was copied. However, Superman has gone through several power upgrades over the years and as Bizarro and Superman are distinct beings, when ones gets a power up, it does not follow that the other one will.

zee crusher said:
"See your right. Creator doesn't know comic book characters as well and probably can't give a good explantion here so don't believe him. Bizzaro loses here he's to dumb an not strong enough if he can't beat superman how does he expect to beat beta ray bill who is stronger then Thor. Thor is stronger then superman. Simple as that.
"

If you chose to pick fights as a result of you nasty little remarks then you will get what you deserve. So don't moan to other viners when the targets of your comments and slander retaliate.

If you have nothing constructive to say, please say nothing.

If your arguments cannot withstand people asking questions about them (like where you got your info from) then your arguments are not strong enough to be the truth.

You are like Bizzaro in some ways - limited intelligence and barrels in to things.

When you have been reading comics for almost 30 years then you can have an argument with me about knowing characters. Until then keep your petty little lies to yourself. i for one am tired of them.

As for your comment on Thor being stronger than Superman, Thor already lost to Superman in a published comic. Grow up and get over it already.
Marvel and DC both published that comic and it's official.


Gottheit said:
"Hmm. Let's pretend that Bizzaro and Beta Ray Bill are at the same strength and speed, because if we try and get into a whole, "No, BRB's stronger because," nothing is going to be solved, because no one will ever be square on who between Thor and Supes is stronger, and I imagine that would go out to people who are made to be just like Thor and Supes. So, just for the sake of argument, let's pretend. Pretend, that in terms of strength, and speed, and reflexes, Bizarro and BRB are the same. Ok? What I think this will come down to is Beta Ray Bill simply for the reason that Beta would think, and maneuver, and...crap. I just realized I don't know where they are fighting. Is this an aerial battle?
"
But that is usually the crux of the matter. When you compare characters from different companies, you need to know their respective power levels. As they have not faught each other you then rely on the feats they have performed to compare and contrast each other.

As it is they are not the same in power, durability or speed. Yes, BRB is smarter and will think tactically. Will this give him the win. It could, in this instance but I would still favour Bizarro for the win.

#25 Posted by Ace High (625 posts) - - Show Bio

If Bizarro was smarter then I'd say this would be a closer fight, but if you read his fights with Thor and Stardust etc then he is a very tactically minded thinker when he fights. If he gets a good slap from Bizarro unless it puts him down straight away, which I doubt, BRB won't sit around trading blows with the guy.

#26 Posted by the creator (8560 posts) - - Show Bio
Ace High said:
"If Bizarro was smarter then I'd say this would be a closer fight, but if you read his fights with Thor and Stardust etc then he is a very tactically minded thinker when he fights. If he gets a good slap from Bizarro unless it puts him down straight away, which I doubt, BRB won't sit around trading blows with the guy.
"
And that's why it would again come back to the argument of power levels.

Just imagine for a moment that Bizzaro is that damn powerful, that a punch from him is like being hit with all the force of a 1000 nuclear bombs, all focussed in to area of his fist.

Can any hero from marvel really withstand that kind of power (based on all their appearances - not just isolated ones) ?

The debate over Bizarro's strength vs any Marvel character can keep on going round and round. The only way to see the truth is to be objective when analysing the presented evidence.
#27 Posted by Ace High (625 posts) - - Show Bio

Well from the presented evidence Superman couldn't put Thor down with one punch so I doubt Bizarro would be able to put BRB down with one punch. Then BRB would be able to gauge the guys ability and formulate a plan. Thats what it boils down to really, is that Bizarro just isn't smart enough to win this.

#28 Posted by Desilation (14585 posts) - - Show Bio

wow this could be a good fight come to think of it

#29 Posted by the creator (8560 posts) - - Show Bio
Ace High said:
"Well from the presented evidence Superman couldn't put Thor down with one punch so I doubt Bizarro would be able to put BRB down with one punch. Then BRB would be able to gauge the guys ability and formulate a plan. Thats what it boils down to really, is that Bizarro just isn't smart enough to win this.
"
Could it be that Superman did what he always does - hold his strength back ?

Bizzaro won't do that.
#30 Posted by Ace High (625 posts) - - Show Bio

Well now we are getting into hypotheticals. You could say he was holding back, but concurrently you could say that he realised how hench Thor was when he put him though a building at the end of issue 1 and realised that holding back isn't gonna cut it. Also at the end of the fight Superman seems pretty dang tired which wouldn't really happen unless he was exerting himself and seeing as the fate of his universe was at stake I doubt he would have held back knowing that everything he loves and holds dear to him would have vanished in a Krona shaped abyss.

#31 Posted by Gottheit (3473 posts) - - Show Bio

Hypothetically, that is...

#32 Posted by Apparition (11349 posts) - - Show Bio
Ace High said:
"If Bizarro was smarter then I'd say this would be a closer fight, but if you read his fights with Thor and Stardust etc then he is a very tactically minded thinker when he fights. If he gets a good slap from Bizarro unless it puts him down straight away, which I doubt, BRB won't sit around trading blows with the guy.
"

that's one piece of presented evidence.  he said look at all of the evidence.  thor gets hurt by the wrecking crew.  and ulik.  the wrecking crew can all lift 10 tons maximum and ulik can lift 90 tons.  so how is it that when ulike is knocking thor around someone like superman couldn't knock him out?

Ace High
said:
"Well now we are getting into hypotheticals. You could say he was holding back, but concurrently you could say that he realised how hench Thor was when he put him though a building at the end of issue 1 and realised that holding back isn't gonna cut it. Also at the end of the fight Superman seems pretty dang tired which wouldn't really happen unless he was exerting himself and seeing as the fate of his universe was at stake I doubt he would have held back knowing that everything he loves and holds dear to him would have vanished in a Krona shaped abyss.
"

dont you think they could have leveled them out for that one story?  can you look beyond that story and at all the rest of their appearances?  once you do that you realise that they really are on different levels.
#33 Posted by Gottheit (3473 posts) - - Show Bio

App, thank you. You've been saying what I've been trying to say for a while. That Thor is just on a whole different level then Supes. A higher one.

#34 Posted by Apparition (11349 posts) - - Show Bio

only in your mind goth ;)

#35 Posted by Ace High (625 posts) - - Show Bio

Well you could, but seeing as its the only canon cross over I'd like to think that it holds some weight when we are talking about these battles. The fights with Thor and Stardust are actually two pieces of presented evidence but whatever. How about the time BRB took on Ego and messed him up, and Ego is on Galactus level. But it really isn't even needed seeing as the cross over is canon so Superman and Thor are on similar levels as are BRB and Thor and Bizarro is too dumb to win against someone with the myriad of powers that BRB has. He doesn't even need to fight him in a fist fight, he can just teleport him to limbo or something.

#36 Posted by Gottheit (3473 posts) - - Show Bio
#37 Posted by Apparition (11349 posts) - - Show Bio
Ace High said:
"Well you could, but seeing as its the only canon cross over I'd like to think that it holds some weight when we are talking about these battles. The fights with Thor and Stardust are actually two pieces of presented evidence but whatever. How about the time BRB took on Ego and messed him up, and Ego is on Galactus level. But it really isn't even needed seeing as the cross over is canon so Superman and Thor are on similar levels as are BRB and Thor and Bizarro is too dumb to win against someone with the myriad of powers that BRB has. He doesn't even need to fight him in a fist fight, he can just teleport him to limbo or something.
"

yeah but they're only on the same level to make it a better fight!  and i know people say ego is on galactus's level but what has ego ever really done?  isn't he always getting beaten by thor or a thor equivalent, who then goes on to have a tough time against the radioactive man, absorbing man, or the wrecking crew?  focusing on one or two specific fights you dont get the whole flavor of that character.  if i just looked at thor getting struggling against mongoose when thor was teamed up with spiderman then i'd say this guy wouldnt even know what to do when superman showed up.  if i look at just a couple of high end showings then it looks like he has a good shot at superman.  but you have to look at good and bad showings of both characters and figure out what are the real showings.

so in a fist fight i see bizarro winning.  brb can teleport bizarro away but if bizarro is smart enough to use his speed, then he can win.  i really dont care who wins, i'm just trying to show that superman and bizarroa are far stronger and durable then thor and brb are.
#38 Posted by Apparition (11349 posts) - - Show Bio
#39 Posted by Gottheit (3473 posts) - - Show Bio

You mean AWESOME VIDEO!

#40 Posted by Ace High (625 posts) - - Show Bio

Heh so by doing that your going against your own theories of focusing on a specific feat area and only taking the low end feats? In the JLA/Avengers comic Superman was having a tough time against Radioactive Man as well until The Vision saved his ass. Plus Bizarro isn't smart enough to use his speed, thats kinda the whole point.

#41 Posted by Apparition (11349 posts) - - Show Bio
Ace High said:
"Heh so by doing that your going against your own theories of focusing on a specific feat area and only taking the low end feats? In the JLA/Avengers comic Superman was having a tough time against Radioactive Man as well until The Vision saved his ass. Plus Bizarro isn't smart enough to use his speed, thats kinda the whole point.
"
no i'm using focusing on the low end feats to show you how you shouldnt just focus on the high end feats.  you have to go somewhere in between and when you do that superman's (bizarro's) in a higher class physically than thor (brb).

anytime you use a crossover you have to know that they are evening out the characters.  so if thor has a tough fime with radioactive man, then they will make superman have a tough time with him.  neither of them should though.  but to make matters worse for your argument the reason superman was having a tough time with radioactive man was because he was generating kryptonite radiation.  he was targeting one of superman's only true weaknesses.

bizarro isnt smart enough to use his speed... that's like saying he isnt smart enough to fly or he isnt smart enough to use his strength.  its a base power of his.  i wouldnt be surprised if he was too dumb to fight slow.  that would be just as likely as him being too dumb to use his speed.  if you say that he cant put together a plan of attack or he cant figure out that most of thor's powers come from his hammer, then ok, but too dumb to use his speed?  that's insane.
#42 Posted by Apparition (11349 posts) - - Show Bio
Gottheit said:
"You mean AWESOME VIDEO!"

lol at least it's funny
#43 Posted by T.J. Magnum (27685 posts) - - Show Bio

Bizarro

#44 Posted by Ace High (625 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't honestly remember one time Bizarro has beaten someone using his speed. Whenever I seen him beat someone he hits them still they stay down, Wonder Woman, the Human Bomb etc etc. Anyways your talking in hypotheticals. If the crossover is canon then the feats are canon. Doesn't matter if they are "evening them out" (which I completely disagree with), the fact of the matter remains that in a canon event they were shown to be of similar power. If I was using Marvel vs DC as an example then fair dues it would be useless. But I am not.

#45 Posted by Apparition (11349 posts) - - Show Bio

ok then when have you seen a marvel character effortlessly throw something as heavy as an aircraft carrier?  that weighs 100,000 tons and black adam just casually threw one for miles.  when they moved a planet, it only took three of them to do it, superman, ww and martian manhunter.  you dont see marvel characters doing that.  i love marvel but the strength levels are different.  and knowing that they are different how is it that thor, who can be battered around by ben grimm when he could lift only 80 tons and ulik who can lift 90 (i'm staying away from the low end wrecking crew just for you ace!), can now take shots from people who can effortlessly toss 100,000 ton aircraft carriers?

#46 Posted by T.J. Magnum (27685 posts) - - Show Bio

you tell him app

#47 Posted by Ace High (625 posts) - - Show Bio

Well Gladiator lifted the Baxter Building thats 365,000 tons. Thor lifted the Midgard Serpent which is big enough to circle the Earth (The Creator did the maths I can't remember the numbers exactly but it was huuuge). I  ain't gonna sit and list every strength feat of a Marvel characters but I found a good website that lists pretty much all the Thor feats up to a point and his feats of strength include:

 A) In Thor-#94- with just a slight pressure from Thor’s little finger he toppled leaning Tower of Pisa;
 B) in Thor-#95, Thor easily ripped apart the door of a special constructed safe that could resist a Ton (2,000 lbs.) of TNT;
C) Thor sculpted a hammer from an Alien Tank by compressing together Tons of the Armor plating-Thor-#281, and tossed a Giant Alien Tank a significant distance as if were just a simple toy-Avengers-#219;
D) Thor towed away a broken Jetliner full of passengers by flying it out of the Celestial stronghold in South America-Thor-#284.
E) Thor, with his enormous strength, broke through wrap-around cables made of an alloy of Adamantiun-Thor-#309.
F) Thor lifted and balanced a 40 plus story Building along with Cranes on top of the Building-Thor-#391;
G) Thor towed the Entire Avengers Hydrobase-Avengers-#301,
H) Thor with his strength closed a fissure that he created in the Planets crust, and then he proceeded by sealing Loki in it under millions Tons of Earth with the might of his limb-Avengers West Coast-#55;
) Thor sent an Alien with such physical force that he went literally flying through Earth’s Orbit and straight outside our Solar System-JIM-#90;
J) Thor lifted the Midgard Serpent which girds the entire Earth and holds the Ocean in place-Thor-#272.

I mean you can see there some examples such as lifted a 40 story building, the Midgard Serpent I have already mentioned, using his little finger to knock over the leaning Tower of Pisa. So generally i'd agree with you that DC heroes are more powerful strength wise than Marvel ones but in some instanceses (Thor, Beta Ray Bill, Hercules etc etc) they are closer than people think. Plus this is just Thor's pure strength, this isn't even including Mjolnir that can smash mountain ranges in half.

(http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/archive/index.php/t-36947.html this is the website if you wanna check out the rest of the feats you gotta scroll down for a lil bit).

#48 Posted by the creator (8560 posts) - - Show Bio
Ace High said:
 
"
Well Gladiator lifted the Baxter Building thats 365,000 tons.
The Baxter Building is not as big as the Empire state at only 35 stories. I would estimate it's weight to be around the 100,000 tonnes mark. You will also note that Gladiator appeared to be straining when he did this as well - it was no casual lift.

Thor lifted the Midgard Serpent which is big enough to circle the Earth (The Creator did the maths I can't remember the numbers exactly but it was huuuge).
Actually, I only calculated the weight of around a 500 feet long section of the Serpent that Thor did lift in one of their battles. This feat was not that high when you comapre to of some of Thor's other feats.
 
Now for the feats you mention below, A,B and I are all from much older comics and they came before the advent of editorial meetings and more consistent character planning took place - that helped to eliminate irregularities in power level and powers that each character possessed.
 A) In Thor-#94- with just a slight pressure from Thor’s little finger he toppled leaning Tower of Pisa;
This is not such a big strength feat. The tower is approx 185 feet high, has an estimated weight of 14500 tonnes and is already leaning at angle of approx 4 degrees. This comic was published long before any of the more modern (say 1990's onwads) work that has resulted in the buildings stability. Back then, the building's angle was growing due to thermal expansion of the rocks used in it's construction and the softer foundations used on one half of the foundations.
As long as the building is strong enough, the height of the building would act as a lever, amplifying the effects of the strength of the person pushing at the top.
Any person can apply a good 10% of the force that their arm can deliver if the finger is keep straight and in line with the arm.
That would mean that Thor should have been able to deliver at least 5,000 - 10,000 tonnes of force (my estimate) against the tower, that wuld be magnified by the tower acting a s a lever (and neatly sidestepping the fact that applying this force would collapse the structure).

This would only show Thor requirining strength in to the 100,000 tonne range.

B) in Thor-#95, Thor easily ripped apart the door of a special constructed safe that could resist a Ton (2,000 lbs.) of TNT;
More difficult to work out the physics of this one as was the explosive going to a shaped charge or a simple bomb. Obviously the shaped charge would be far more deadly to a lock/hinge or some other integral part of the safe. The application of a person's strength can thus be far more focussed than an unshaped explosion.

If the explosion was unfocussed, this would not then deliver the full force of the explosion, as the force would act over the entire area of the safe, rather than at focussed points as Thor's fingers would.
As I said the physics is hard. A 1 tonne of TNT explosion has a total energy output of 4184000000 Joules. That's a lot of energy but is small compared to a mini nuke. We know that Thor, using Mjolnir can destroy secondary adamantium shielding with repeated blows and it takes a mini nuke to pull off the same stunt. So I tend to think (without resorting ot the maths) that he could deform the safe enough to prise it open.

C) Thor sculpted a hammer from an Alien Tank by compressing together Tons of the Armor plating-Thor-#281, and tossed a Giant Alien Tank a significant distance as if were just a simple toy-Avengers-#219;
If he can around the 100,000 tonne mark, he can mould a hammer (but not super compress it) and could throw a 500 tonne tank (10 times bigger than our battle tanks) over several hundred feat.

D) Thor towed away a broken Jetliner full of passengers by flying it out of the Celestial stronghold in South America-Thor-#284.
A big jetliner, fully loaded, is around 400 tonnes so not much of a feat.

E) Thor, with his enormous strength, broke through wrap-around cables made of an alloy of Adamantiun-Thor-#309.
Was this only secondary adamantium ?

How thick were the cables as we may be able to estimate a breaking load.

F) Thor lifted and balanced a 40 plus story Building along with Cranes on top of the Building-Thor-#391;
If the Baxter building is around 100,000 tonnes, I don't see this being that much more (maybe 120,000 tonnes).

G) Thor towed the Entire Avengers Hydrobase-Avengers-#301,
That was towing across the water, wasn't it ?
I don't have figures for the weight of the base but I think that Wonderman (flying) and Sue Storm supported some of the weight of the base to stabilise it when it was driven up in to the air.
As far as strength feats go, Thor would need to exceed the friction and water drag to then get it moving. If it was against the current, that's a different matter.

H) Thor with his strength closed a fissure that he created in the Planets crust, and then he proceeded by sealing Loki in it under millions Tons of Earth with the might of his limb-Avengers West Coast-#55;
Can you describe how he sealed Loki in. Was it by moving large rocks in to place or simply just pulling the fissure together ?
If's it a fissure pull, then that would require a lot of strength, more than Thor normally shows in manner of his appearances. If it's just rocks then he would simply be moving large objects (say less than 100,000 tonnes) and in 10 such racks, he has moved 1,000,000 tonnes.

If he did move rocks, how big were they ?
The reason I ask is that a dense rock like Balsalt has a density of 3g/cm cubed, which means that a cubic meter weights in at 3 tonnes.

I) Thor sent an Alien with such physical force that he went literally flying through Earth’s Orbit and straight outside our Solar System-JIM-#90;
Now that is a very impressive feat of strength and again would require strength far beyond what Thor normally shows but as mentioned comes from a very old comic.

J) Thor lifted the Midgard Serpent which girds the entire Earth and holds the Ocean in place-Thor-#272.
Was this a flash back type of tale to the time he went on an adventure with Loki and they encountered the Frost Giants and in this same tale, Thor also drunk like half the worlds oceans (all this disguised by illusions) ?

I mean you can see there some examples such as lifted a 40 story building, the Midgard Serpent I have already mentioned, using his little finger to knock over the leaning Tower of Pisa. So generally i'd agree with you that DC heroes are more powerful strength wise than Marvel ones but in some instanceses (Thor, Beta Ray Bill, Hercules etc etc) they are closer than people think. Plus this is just Thor's pure strength, this isn't even including Mjolnir that can smash mountain ranges in half.
I have never doubted that Thor (and BRB) can deliver force only seen by a nuclear bomb but that is usually a lot less than that demonstrated by DC's top powerhouses.
"

#49 Posted by Ace High (625 posts) - - Show Bio

My point was that top tier Marvel heroes (such as Thor, Beta Ray Bill etc) are well above the 100 ton range. I mean your saying stuff like 120,000 tons isn't much more than the Baxter Building but the fact is its in the 100,000 ton range that DC fans like to throw around. But as I keep saying for as long as the JLA/Avengers story is canon and that depiction of their powers being similar is canon then BRB will beat Bizarro because they are roughly on the same level of power and BRB is helluva lot smarter with a vast amount more abilities that he can call on.

#50 Posted by the creator (8560 posts) - - Show Bio
Ace High said:
"My point was that top tier Marvel heroes (such as Thor, Beta Ray Bill etc) are well above the 100 ton range. I mean your saying stuff like 120,000 tons isn't much more than the Baxter Building but the fact is its in the 100,000 ton range that DC fans like to throw around. But as I keep saying for as long as the JLA/Avengers story is canon and that depiction of their powers being similar is canon then BRB will beat Bizarro because they are roughly on the same level of power and BRB is helluva lot smarter with a vast amount more abilities that he can call on.
"
The quote for DC Powerhouses being able to lift 100,000 tonnes seems to originate on Wikia and it is hugely inaccurate.
The exact quote from the DC Wikia project is

"While the exact magnitude of Superman's strength is unknown, it is generally accepted that Superman is sufficiently strong to lift 100,000 tons or more. The exact specfic range is unknown as Superman's strength, like his other powers, has fluctuated over time."

This is quite simply a massive pile of crap.
DC themselves stated that Superman was theorised to be able to lift the Great Pyramid of Egypt (6,000,000 tonnes) in the Who's Who comic (the DC version of OHOTMU) and this was when Superman was relaunched. How can the author of that Wikia page say that when DC's official stance has been something else in a published comic.
Subsequent to this, Superman has been steadily growing in power again and can perform far greater strength feats today.

To prove this point about the author really having no brain engaged, they make the following statement as well,

"Superman's cellular structure is more dense, resilient and biologically more effective than human tissue. Under natural Kryptonian conditions, does not seem to possess superhuman strength levels despite his enhanced cellular ability without constant exposure to yellow solar energy. Without such charging, his strength seems on par for a human of his height and weight who engages in regular physical activity. As an alien he possess several organs whose functions are not yet disclosed or understood but are believed to be part of and perhaps even the source of his biomatrix force field and reclamation aura. Superman's body also stores energy actively within his bio-cellular matrix as an energy pattern that is linked to his body's electromagnetic field. This energy powers most of Superman's electromagnetic capabilities such as flight and heat vision. It also supplements his physical strength by a factor of 12,000 times or so."

If you take 100,000 tonnes and divide it by 12,000, that gives you 8.33 tonnes.

Tell me how many normal men who are 6'3" and weight 235 lbs, can lift 8.33 tonnes ?
Wow, I hadn't realised the human race had got so strong all of a sudden.

Then to finally put the icing in the cake, the author then says further into the text on Super strength,

"Superman's normal strength levels are obviously in the multi-megaton range."

That really jives with the top comment.

Trusting many references on that site is like trusting to walk across a minefield.

There are thousands of references to not just Superman but other top tier DC powerhouses lifting so far in excess of 100,000 tonnes.
There also seem to be hundreds of instances of these same powerhouses performing feats that would have to at least be in the multi-million tonne range.
And finally there are also seems to be many instances of feats where the same powerhouses are in the multi-billion tonne and above ranges.

Examples include pushing moons out of orbit and throwing 100,000 tonne aircraft carriers hundreds of miles.

All I would say is that when you look at the regular occurences for both sets of characters, and put aside the massive ultra high feats and also the extremely poor feats (both usually when the writer is having a bad day), you tend to get a consistent picture of the characters that is more representative.

And when you look at that level, I tend to think that Bizarro is massively stronger than BRB, far more durable and also faster in reaction speed.

As for the JLA/Avengers storyline, both companies always want their respective champions to have a good showing. They both sat down and agreed that Superman would beat Thor but no doubt the conversations at the time ensured that the battle would be close. One companies heroes cannot be shown to be hugely inferior to anothers.
Do you remember what had to happen with the Flash while in the Marvel universe - he could not access the speed force. If he could, then Quicksilver had no chance to compete (as he discovered later on). How can a speedster, ho if we are being generous could run at say 20,000 mph and have reaction speed comensurate to this, compete with a being who can run at 669600000 mph ?

I think that a similar level of difference exists for BRB and Bizzaro.