Best of the best in a h2h fight

Team 1:

Lady Shiva, Cassandra Cain, Richard Dragon, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Batman and Deathstroke.

Team 2:

Iron Fist, Captain America, Winter Soldier, Daredevil, Wolverine, Shang Chi and Elektra.

Rules:

• No gear at all.
• No super powers at all. The only ones that are excluded from this are: Cap's SSS, Daredevil's super-senses, and Deathstroke's physical enhancements.
• Everybody is bloodlusted. Fight to the death.
• Takes place in a gladiator's arena, with a huge croud watching and cheering.
• DC characters are Pre-Flashpoint. Marvel are standard 616.

Team 1.

Daredevil is useless here.

team 2

@precrisisbardock daredevil is not useless here

Jason Todd solos

Define what is necessary powers...

Team 1..Richard Dragon, Batman, Lady Shiva and Cain just make me laugh at team 2's chances.

you also did not list which unvierse

@allstarsuperman: beat me to it

Team 1, though I don't think anyone's useless here.

@rpgesus: yes he is

Environment nullifies him

Hahaha no karate kid huh? To cheap?

@the_red_viper: why is cap and WS here??? where is tchalla? and say taskmaster or mantis?

@precrisisbardock: daredevil is useless??Uh no...

DC.

Cap could solo

Team 2. Shiva sucks, and Stroke isn't as good at h2h.

Marvel probably

Without gear speed is kind of lopsided in marvels favour with only cass and mayybe drakon in the same league as the likes of shang chi, daredevil and elektra

Danny might have soloed were it not for the depowering. we dont know how good he is without his chi

@precrisisbardock: Matt has spent most of his life mastering his senses. He regularly walks around the hussle and bussle of NYC without collapsing in agony, I don't think a cheering crowd would really affect him.

To be more specific Matt murdock regularly takes on hordes of gunmen firing at him simulteneously without having this screw up his senses

I doubt a cheering crowd would affect him anymore than the 100 yakuza with the guns or the prison fight with kingpin and bullseye shooting

@thegrayghost: Dragon is above drakon tho... If he is allowing pre new 52 then shiva is the most skilled on the dc side with danny being the most skilled on marvel...

Drakon is just speed and if its equalized then he has no feats to be in this fight... His good showings are all speed related... So this thread is not the best of the best in my opinion as I don't believe bucky belongs here either....

@thegrayghost: dude I love that feat 107 weapon wielding yakuza all taken down in under I think 5 minutes that one Cop was just amazed

@lerizador said:

Necessary powers are things that without a character would be useless. Like DD's senses (without them he's just a blind guy).

And thanks for reminding me, I'll add versions.

No. He's too high up in terms of pure skill and there's nobody I can think of that's even remotely close to his level. He tussles with Kryptonians using nothing but pure skill and reflexes.

Shiva is probably the best martial artist in DC, not counting KK. She most certainly does not suck.

Drakon's not "just speed", he's also good enough to humiliate Connor Hawke and Mia on a daily routine. Even if he is "just speed", then he's still fast enough to catch 7 arrows fired at him simultaniously by Connor. It actually insulted him that Connor even tried. It's better than bullet-timing.

No he could not. Even with his super powers he can't even hope to solo this team, and he doesn't have them for this fight. Please read OP.

@the_red_viper: Current Shiva hasn't done anything impressive. She's a weak link on her team.

@the_red_viper: drakon has never did anything without it being speed tho,, which you equalized.. He has only done anything to connor a few times and everything was speed related... His skill has never really been on display

Add T'challa and Taskmaster and take out Bucky and Elektra to make this close.

As it stands, it's Cass, Bruce, Shiva, and Richie vs James and Danny.

Daredevil is a better fighter than Deathstroke and can give good fights to everybody else at least

@the_red_viper: Rogers doesn't have "super powers," unless I'm missing something. He's only enhanced to peak Human perfection (what a Human could potentially be at their highest). If we take the Super Soldier Serum out of him, which would depower him, then he'd return to his scrawny, short self and thus be the first person taken out. In the case that this isn't happening, my apologies.

I know. This is why I put in the OP that it's Pre-Flashpoint. Read it again.

Where did I say I equalized speed? All I said was that no super powers are involved (unless a character is utterly useless without that power, like DD's super senses). Anything achieved by skill and training alone still stands. Which means Drakon still has his speed, which means he's probably the fastest fighter in this match (or maybe it's Elektra. She's scary fast too). Regardless, he's shown skill too.

So no, speed isn't equalized, please read the OP all the way through.

Saying that Cap is only "peak human" is like saying that Flash is only lightspeed. Peak Human is most definitely not the definition for someone who dodges bullets because he can "see faster". So yeah, the SSS is out of play. Then again it doesn't mean Steve is an underweight kid like he was before the SSS, he's just as big/strong/fast as he would have been with all his training and experience if he didn't have the SSS. Which is pretty decent.

@the_red_viper: He is meta in speed,, and you said no super powers,, which I assumed you took deathstrokes and slades and TWS... Drakon is meta in speed....

By real-world definitions, yes. But it's not a super power. It was achieved by training and pure skill. It's like saying Green Arrow is meta in accuracy or that Batman is meta in intelligence.

@the_red_viper: Okay. Just to be clear, the SSS is removed, but he is exactly the same without it as he was with it?

@the_red_viper: i dont think that makes sense without the SSS he is just a scrawny kid with some training

No, he's exactly what he would have been if he didn't have the SSS in the first place but still trained, fought and exercised on a daily basis like he always does.

The SSS isn't what makes him look like a bodybuilder. It's all his training that does. Imagine him with all this training but without the SSS that makes him meta-human. In other words, in this fight he's actually just peak-human for a change.

@the_red_viper: but he is considered peak human with the SSS i dont see how you can make the assumption that someone that worked out and trained like cap would become that big, fast, strong and stuff. He was able to learn a lot of martial arts and tactics thru the SSS and gain so much muscle mass with the SSS as well

I don't know how this isn't meta??,, but ok if that is how its explained...Are you allowing slade and steve to use there speed?? Iron fist is also a hard one to not prove that he is using chi.. I always argue that he doesn't use his chi to enhance his skill.. I have to rethink it..

I still think cap and bucky should be replaced with more skilled guys tho... My gut is that the dc side has 4 of their top 5 guys in the fight and the marvel side is missing a couple of their more skilled fighters so I am thinking dc...

Y'know what, I see this is making things too complicated. I'll just add the SSS in again, lol. I'll edit the OP as to what characters are depowered.

Please do, because you had made it confusing. I have never seen or heard of Rogers looking similar to what you described without SSS being involved. The SSS is actually what made him look like a bodybuilder, by the way. >_o

@newecho said:

@the_red_viper said:

@newecho said:

@the_red_viper: He is meta in speed,, and you said no super powers,, which I assumed you took deathstrokes and slades and TWS... Drakon is meta in speed....

By real-world definitions, yes. But it's not a super power. It was achieved by training and pure skill. It's like saying Green Arrow is meta in accuracy or that Batman is meta in intelligence.

I don't know how this isn't meta??,, but ok if that is how its explained...Are you allowing slade and steve to use there speed?? Iron fist is also a hard one to not prove that he is using chi.. I always argue that he doesn't use his chi to enhance his skill.. I have to rethink it..

I still think cap and bucky should be replaced with more skilled guys tho... I have to rethink it... My gut is that the dc side has 4 of their top 5 guys in the fight and the marvel side is missing a couple of their more skilled fighters so I am thinking dc...

Again, meta-human by definition is super-human. If something was achieved by training alone without any external source being involved, it's not really super-human (not by comics' standarts anyway). That's why Drakon and Elektra and Shiva and all those guys still have their speeds.

And who do you think is mising from team 2? If any, then X-23 and Bullseye come to mind, but I think this team is nicely assembled as it is.

@the_red_viper: T'challa and mantis before her upgrades are the biggest omissions with taskmaster, x23, daken, ogun, and the gorgon all being > Cap and TWS in skill in my opinon...

@the_red_viper: and you took cap's sss ... He has hardly any feats at all without it... Yeah he has a couple fodder feats that come to mind.... and deathstroke is just as featless....

Read OP again. I edit it earlier.

Team 2.

Team 1 would win easly.

"

• No gear at all.
• No super powers at all. The only ones that are excluded from this are: Cap's SSS, Daredevil's super-senses, and Deathstroke's physical enhancements.
• Everybody is bloodlusted. Fight to the death.
• DC characters are Pre-Flashpoint. "

So, no chi-amps for either Iron Fist or Shang-Chi?...and no meta-human stats + healling-factor for Wolverine?

DC stomps hard.

"Laugh" it's a bit too much, but yeah it's pretty much this.

Wolverine needs his mutant enhancements. That, or remove his adamantium as there is no way he's lugging around 300 lbs of adamantium without his superhuman stats. (Not to mention the adamantium poisoning that will immediately weaken him and leave him debilitated).

Maybe make him bone Wolverine, peak human, no healing factor. Even then, Wolverine doesn't fight at the elite level without his healing factor. He's too used to having it and his style relies on it to a large degree (at least his "confidence" does).

Going team DC. Too filled with elite fighters that are used to depending on little save their skill.

But this is in no way a "stomp". Bat_Girl_CC throws that term around far too loosely.

Team 1. 7-8/10

No super powers/enhancements automatically means no Adamantium as well. Maybe I should have pointed that one out, but I figured it'd be obvious.

@laflux: not with a huge roaring crowd

@laflux: not with a roaring huge crowd