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#301 Edited by RBT (4120 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: Dark Knight Returns Part 2. Superman was sucked dry by the nuclear missile. In ep. Frogs of War 1(omniverse) NRG was able to get out of his suit without help of any outer agent. If he gets out, he can be a problem. None of Supes attack will affect him. His freezing breath will merely slow him down(since he can heat up to millions of celcius).

And Chromastone CAN beat Clark. Chromastone absorbs energy and fires it in different forms(sometimes laser, sometimes simply conc. solar beam..) He can easily manipulate solar beam to red sun radiation. Then defeating Superman will be a child's play(not really). Also if you've seen Vengeance of Vilgax, you'd know that Diamond head defeated Vilgax very easily and that Vilgax took had power of Ultimos and other most powerful 9 heroes in him, who by the way looked pretty powerful. Vilgax was able to defeat 60 ft grown Humagosaur in mere seconds. He was

almost

as powerful as Darksied himself. And Diamond head finished him off in less than a minute.

Another alien which can most definitely defeat Superman is Gravattack. He is Graviton and more powerful since he doesn't have the limitations of being human. He is durable as he was able to shrug off some mighty blows before Ben figured out his powers. He can keep applying pressure(actually force) on Superman until he breaks literally or make him feather light. Its hard to fight when you are getting blown away by the wind.

Clockwork can also defeat Superman. Superman, very slowly, but ages. So yeah Clockwork can kill him.

@allstarsuperman About alien X. Serena and Bellicus are proud. According to them, they are the ultimate power being(which they are). They don't actually care about who's good and who's evil(AF episode Ben=X+2- They denied to wipe Incursians out of existence when they had destroyed a planet and goint to destroy earth.) Ben hurt their ego and they recklessly let him manipulate them. Also in UA episode Forge of Creation Paradox hinted that Ben will be able to use Alien X without any difficulty.

#302 Posted by Juiceboks (7964 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt In that instance he was deprived of sunlight and the nuke just drained his reserves. But regardless that's a movie. In the recent comics he's taken much much worse. NRG wont be able to do anything to Clark as well. He cant drain him fast enough to deplete his reserves, nor can he hit him with any attacks as he'll just dodge them.

Maybe if Superman hits him with heat vision the whole time. If he does what he normally does then Chromastone gets shattered very easily before he has a chance to drain anything. He has also has a limit to how much he can drain and has been overloaded before. I have seen it and that wasn't that much of a battle to be honest. Someone who was taking what everyone else, including the Plumbers, was throwing his way prior to being defeated in 30 seconds like that was pretty anticlimactic. Regardless, Vilgax was nowhere NEAR Darkseids level of power. He never did anything that would put him above say Kalibak. His laser beams only looked like DS Omega beams because how they zigzagged to catch that XLR8 girl. They didn't display the same level of power as the Omega Beams though. If Ben goes Diamondhead then Superman dodges everything he throws at him and beats him into submission. Not that hitting him with his constructs would do any damage anyway.

If Gravattack can exert a gravitational force greater than a black hole then maybe he could have a chance. But he cant. So he doesn't. He gets blitzed or lobotomized with heat vision. Clockwork is pretty fragile. One hit and he's down. He also has to be able to hit him with the aging beam. He's pretty slow so he stands very little chance. Even he could hit him, Superman Prime survived for 15,000 years and still didn't show any sign of old age. I don't think aging him would work.

#303 Posted by KMART4455 (1290 posts) - - Show Bio

Ben stands no chance.. even if he could get dna of creatures in the DCU.. Superman still wins almost all of those battles.

#304 Posted by RBT (4120 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: When exactly was Chromastone 'overloaded'? There are only two instances when he's hurt with any kind of energy. Once in AF when that Forever Knight was trying to kill the dragon and CHromastone was very close. Another was in 1st ep of UA where he was affected by electricty. Both the times, he's not expecting the attack. He's made of living crystal and is indestructible. He's able to absorb some very high power, high tech gun DNAliens created to bust open the capsules in which the big green aliens were locked.(ep. Unearthed). And DNAliens are into high tech stuff. He can be broken by physical force, but to do so Superman will have to reach him. Chromastone was able to fly to Petrosapien's homeland from Earth in mere minutes. He very well can dodge Superman. All while absorbing solar radiation and firing red sun radiation. And don't say that Superman will dodge it. Its radiation. It'll reach superman, reduce his strength to that of a human and Chromastone will do the rest.

What's saying that Gravattack cannot exert force greater than a black hole. Like I said he's more powerful and durable than Graviton(marvel), him being a human. And Graviton was able to pin down whole Fantastic Four, Thor, Hercules, Hulk. Nemor and many other superheroes(just giving you an idea what gravity power is capable of.) Superman won't be able to move. Also if Superman fires his heat vision at him, he'll simply deviate them. Enough gravity can bend rays as well(black hole pulling light is an example). And heat vision is a kind of ray. So Gravattack will keep crushing Superman until all his bones are broken, meanwhile devaiting and dodging all his other attacks(heat vision, ice breath). Gravattack is pretty agile too.

#305 Edited by Juiceboks (7964 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt He was overloaded in The Enemy of Frenemy episode of Ultimate Alien when Ben tries to absorb the energy in Charmcasters engine. He gets almost immediately K.Oed. He has a limit to how much he can absorb. He's not indestructible either as VIlgax pounded him into pieces. Travel speed doesn't equal combat speed. Thor can fly in multiples of the speed of light but he cant react at the same speeds. There's nothing to suggest that Chromastone is able to move anywhere near as fast as SuperQuoteman. He gets blitzed or overloaded. And Superman can in fact dodge it because he shoots it out as a beam composed of radioactive energy not a wave. Even he did let it reach him it would take a long time to drain Clark as he's powered by the sun and constantly replenishing himself because of it.

There is nothing Gravattack has done to suggest he can exert gravity at a level equal to a black hole. Redirecting some missiles is great..but not indicative of a power level that high. How do you know he's more powerful than Graviton? What did you base that off of? If we go by feats then Graviton is a lot more powerful than Gravattack. Hell Franklin levitated an island. What has Gravattack done to rival that? Him being a human has absolutely nothing to do with their power levels. Mad Jim Jaspers is a human and he's more powerful than Galactus. Franklin Richards is a human and his power rivals the Celestials. Gravattack is certainly not agile I don't know what you based that off of. He and every other member of his species are basically rocky planets..not exactly boasts speed and agility does it? To deviate the rays he has to display a gravitational pull sufficient to do so which he has not. Heat rays are not the same as light rays too by the way. Supermans heat vision can burn hotter than the sun so I don't know how he's gonna survive that.

#306 Edited by ShadoVvlite (820 posts) - - Show Bio

I might go with Ben here (but I may be wrong) with-

-Ultimate Bigchill- Able to go intangible and subzero freeze Superman's internals.

-Clockwork- Able to manipulate time and age Superman. (it has been stated by Ben10,000 he can control time)

-Heatblast- I guess he can by going supernova. Quick question, has Superman ever shown durability to supernova attacks?

-Alien X- I know this is a non-factor to most people, but I'm just putting this out here. If Ben did use him, Superman won't be able to harm him in anyway possible, ergo Ben has all the time he needs to convince the two celestials to cooperate.

#307 Posted by AllStarSuperman (20298 posts) - - Show Bio

I might go with Ben here (but I may be wrong) with-

-Ultimate Bigchill- Able to go intangible and subzero freeze Superman's internals.

This is possible, because the plasma could take away superman's solar charge.

-Clockwork- Able to manipulate time and age Superman. (it has been stated by Ben10,000 he can control time)

Clockwork, Ben 10,000 could win with this, Ben 10,000 can control time. He could stop time and cover Superman in a timeray. but superman is immortal so that might not work. theres absolutely no way normal Ben is beating superman with this alien.

-Heatblast- I guess he can by going supernova. Quick question, has Superman ever shown durability to supernova attacks?

heatblast gets froze. hes been put out by fire extiusghers. and superman has taken a supernova before.

-Alien X- I know this is a non-factor to most people, but I'm just putting this out here. If Ben did use him, Superman won't be able to harm him in anyway possible, ergo Ben has all the time he needs to convince the two celestials to cooperate.

Ben could NEVER convice those heads to erase superman from reality. the heads would realize superman is a good guy and would not delete him. enough said...

#308 Edited by ShadoVvlite (820 posts) - - Show Bio

@allstarsuperman: Hey! You were on the other Superman vs Ben thread. Good to see you again! lol. ^.^

-Agree.

-Hmm.. What if Clockwork reversed time on Superman?

-Can argue- But that was when he was younger, now his pyrokinetic power exceeds his youth heatblast.

-Agree- Was just putting it out there.

#309 Edited by AllStarSuperman (20298 posts) - - Show Bio

@shadovvlite: thanks both this and Ben 10 UA vs New 52 Superman, keep getting bumped. the longer the new 52 superman gets feats the littler I see ben winning at all

#310 Edited by RBT (4120 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks:

Ok. So Chromastone can be overloaded. Why is this even the point? He has to absorb sunlight. That won't overload him. And I pointed out his speed because I wanted to say that he can dodge Superman's attack. Yes, he can be hurt by Supes punches, but he's too quick to let SUperman land any blows.And even if Superman does hits him twice or thrice, its not like he is not durable. He's taken on Highbreeds before and held his ground. And even if Superman shatters him like Vilgax did(which Ben won't let happen, since now he can fly), omnitrix will restore him into Diamondhead. He can again transform and continue. He can dodge Supes freezing breath as well. He can refract heat vision through him. All while throwing red sun radiation at Supes. Some are bound to hit him once and then. About Superman regaining his powers from Yellow sun radiation. He looses his powers to red sun radiation almost immedietly. But it takes some time for him to regain his powers by yellow sun radiation. All Chromastone needs is a second of powerless Supes and he'll be roasted.

We've seen very less of Gravattack. He's not shown any limitations till now. So we don't know if he can crush Superman..yet. But what about making him feather light? How will Superman cope when slowest of wind will hit him like a planet?

@allstarsuperman I think you didn't read my last post. The heads, Serena and Bellicus, don't care about good and evil. If they did they would've helped Ben. They were ignorant to Incursians when they had destroyed a planet and were going to destroy earth. They didn't even deactivate that ray gun. And they tried to vaporize Paradox, even though he was a good guy, just because he was a time traveller. They had some arrangement for him to not come 500 light years near them. So, if Ben transforms into Alien X, his body(indestructible) will freeze in and Ben will have ALL the time to convince them to turn Supes into a chicken or whatever. He's already used them 3 times(Dam, turning into Swampfire, restoring Universe). Also Paradox, in ep. Forge of CVraetion, hinted that Ben will be able to use Alien X smoothly.

Also, Superman is NOT immortal. He ages. Very slowly, but he does. All Ben has to do is cover him in time ray and wait...and dodge his heat visions. Also he's made of some kind of metal, so he can take some of his heat visions. Freezing breath won't work as he can melt the ice in fraction of second(time power!)

@shadovvlite You're right. Ultimate Big Chill can do it. Heat blast won't though. Alien X FTW!

So, here I've mentioned 5 aliens that can beat Supes. I've 2 more circum. which are very plausible. So Ben STOMPS!

#311 Posted by Juiceboks (7964 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt Dude..okay

Chromastone is not..I repeat..Is NOT as fast as Superman just because he can fly. He's slow when fighting. If he was that fast he would speedblitz atleast one person. He hasn't. He's not even XLR8 fast which is still slower than Superman so no he will not be dodging his blows that he can throw at near light speeds. How do you dodge freeze breath? Unless you can move faster than light(and even then its unlikely) you aint avoiding anything like that. If Vilgax can destroy him pretty easily then Superman should be able to do it even easier especially since he can punch faster than Vilgax. Heat Vision will overload him if he tries to absorb it that's the point. If that happens then he gets K.Oed and the fight is over. The transformation happened once and has never happened since that one episode so its not a given it will happen here. If it does then Superman will have an easier time fighting a foe that can literally do nothing to him. Diamondhead and Chromastone both get smashed because theyre slow compared to him and they can only absorb or reflect so much energy before they get overloaded.

Gravattack hasn't shown any power of that level so you cant assume he can because he hasn't tried. There's nothing to suggest he could. We've seen enough of him to not assume he can do something like that. If he makes Superman light as feather..the man can fly. He flies out of range and blitzes him because Gravattack is not going to be able to dodge something like that. Gravattacks gravity powers will not do him much good so he gets knocked out very quickly.

And about Alien X..thats a huge gamble. One that Ben is probably not going to resort to. Even if he does, like someone else already said he has to convince the two entities to help him. That could take centuries to convince even one of them since Superman is a hero and isn't endangering anyone(which Paradox was due to messing with the time stream). So he basically takes himself out of the fight so Clark can just leave or put him in the Fortress of Solitude for a lampstand or a paper weight. The fight is over and Superman just got a new piece of furniture for free. Sounds like a win to me.

#312 Posted by RBT (4120 posts) - - Show Bio

@Juiceboks If he's not fast enough,how did he get from earth to Petrosapien's planet in minutes?Also he won't ABSORB heat vision, he'll refract them(ep. The Gauntlet).Even if he's caught in ice,it won't take him a second to get out.He can fire from his whole body.MOA confirmed that omnitrix can restore any dead alien to the closest DNA in database.So, Ben is immortal.

When its about life and death, Ben will gamble. Supes will have a new furniture till it wakes and kills him.Ben wins.

U Big Chill?Clockwork?

#313 Posted by Juiceboks (7964 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt

How do you know how far away the Petrosapien planet was? How do you know it was only a few minutes? Watching Chromastone fly for hours would be boring so they could've sped up the time. We don't know and there's no reason to suggest he can move at lightspeeds else he would be a lot faster on land. He's not so he's nowhere near as fast as Superman who's speed has been quantified on several occasions. Even if it did take him a second to break out, Superman can react in between microseconds so he would still be shattered. He's not immortal. He ages as a normal human so he will die eventually. He can be killed and he has been K.Oed many times before. All he would have to do is knock him out and Ben is done.

Who says its a battle to the death? If it is then Superman wins even easier since he wont waste time letting him transform and blitz him before he has a chance to think of an alien. If it's not a battle to the death then Ben will not resort to Alien X because he has no reason to. What are the chances of him turning into Alien X right off the bat even if it was a death battle? Very very unlikely. If he does then he takes himself out of the fight therefore Superman has won. The clock wont stop for Alien X if it takes him forever to do anything so the fight ends right then and there.

Ult Big Chill probably wont work as Superman has been exposed to both extremely low and Extremely high temperatures before with little effect from either of them. If he tries to freeze him from the inside he can just raise his body temp. Superman could also just dodge Big Chill and whatever he throws at him.

Clockwork is slow. And fragile. One hit and he's out. You cant zap what you cant see.

#314 Posted by ShadoVvlite (820 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: I'm not saying Ben could win, he might have a chance, but I'm just pointing this out for Ultimate Bigchill and Clockwork...

-I said this in another Ben vs Super thread before, but, I agree Big Chill would not be able to do anything since he simply creates freezing vapor, BUT this is Ultimate Big Chill who creates plasma that "absorbs" all heat in its surrounding in order to freeze. (Totally two different things)

- Now for Clockwork, it has been stated by Ben 10,000, that he can manipulate time, not just shooting time rays.

#315 Posted by Shikarenji (1688 posts) - - Show Bio

could be an interesting match if ben gets a chance to scan supes dna . Then he could go unltimate kryptonian

#316 Posted by YoungJustice (6684 posts) - - Show Bio

If Ben ever stops thinking that Humongasour is his best alien; he could win.

Ghostfreak could do some damage if morals off, but honestly, a morals off Ben could do a lot of damage, but then...Superman would probably blitz him..

#317 Posted by DangerousLoki (715 posts) - - Show Bio

Thing is. Ben is human. Superman is near or above lightspeed depending on what source you refrence. Unless Ben starts off on the other side of the universe, Superman can reach him pretty swiftly. Superman is smart enough to be able to recognize the omnitrix as a weapon from there, there is a number of options he has.

  1. He can catch the hand that the omnitrix isn't on and fly him up into the atmosphere until he passed out before he can activate it.
  2. Fire heat vision as hot as the sun at the device and I'm pretty sure the omnitrix would be able to survive that
  3. Freeze the omnitrix on his wrist where he can't activate.
  4. Use his super speed to strike various pressure points that incapacitate Ben before he can use the omnitrix.

Etc. Unless Ben gets prep which allows him to transform the battle starts then he's kind of toast.

#318 Edited by RBT (4120 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks:

I re-watched Secret of Chromastone to see if there were any time breaks between taking off of Chromastone and him reaching Petropia. There was none. So, it did take Chromastone a few minutes to reach Petropia. And about how I know how far away Petropia is, its definitely not in India. Its not a planet of our solar system, so it way far away than Pluto. And about why Chromastone never speedblitz anyone- Ben didn't know he could fly. He knew that in Secret of Chromastone and used it only a few times after it. He NEVER fought anyone who could fly after that using that form. And about Superman taking even less than a second to shatter him- he is not that easy to break. He has taken quite a dew punches from Vilgax(the guy who took down a full grown Humangosaur in one blow. Humangasaur who when using least of his power(9ft) can lift a minimum of 81000 tons) in the SOC and he was no where near shattered. He was shattered by his sword which was not ordinary. A sword which can fire up, absorb all the energy Chromastone threw. It was probably magical he took from someone he defeated. Tetrax also commented that Chromastone can do a lot more than fly. Also Ben chose him over Humagasaur to fight Dragon when he didn't even know he could fly. So, he is not gonna shatter like a glass by a couple of punches from Supes. Also, for the millionth time- He won't ABSORB the heat vision. He will let it pass through his body harmlessly like he did in the episode The Gauntlet(Alien Force.)

Believe me, Ben will transform into Alien X. He transformed into Alien X even though Azmuth said it was a bad idea to defeat Aggregor. Superman is a bigger threat than Aggregor. He'll definitely transform. And now that he's used them successfully once more, he'll have more confidence in it. Fight is not over until one of them accepts defeat or one takes the other down. When Ben transform to Alien X, he actually is preparing to attack Superman. And Superman cannot do a thing to stop him. He can smash him with Jupiter, call Batman, or watherever, Alien X's body is INDESTRUCTIBLE. They are the ultimate power(which Aggregor was after). Ben will convince Serena and Bellicus(who I say once again, doesn't give a damn that Supes is a good guy. They were reluctant to stop universe from being wiped out of existance. They certainly won't care about last son of krypton) SO Ben will convince them. And ultimately he'll win.

How can you dodge something you can't see? Ultimate big chill can go intangible and invisible. Superman's power is from the solar energy inside his cell's protoplasm. U Big Chill sucks just that plasma energy to sub freeze objects. Superman will die.

Like @shadovvlite meantioned- Clockwork can manipulate time in more ways than just shooting a time ray. He was able reverse time for him to see what happened once. He most probably can do it with future.

@dangerousloki Aaand we're back to that. Supes will kill him before he transforms! Okay, when I say Batman vs someone without prep, I don't mean Bruce wayne in a meeting. I mean Batman with his Batsuit, with his utility belt. When I say GL vs someone without prep, you won't argue that his ring is dischared and his opponent kills him. So, when I say Ben vs Clark without prep, I mean Ben doesn't have any special gear like Kryptonite or a gun that can emit red sun radition(that would be cool though). Ben gets to activate his omnitrix and then fight starts. Otherwise this whole discussion will be pointless. So don't come up with what supes can do BEFORE Ben transform. Lets see what he can do AFTER. Not much actually.

@youngjustice Its not 10 year old Ben. He's got brains.

#319 Posted by Perpetr8rMike (590 posts) - - Show Bio

Ben Ten wins this and pretty easily. DC fans tend to believe that Superman has no weakness (He was shot in the head by a Kryptonite bullet and was just fine minutes later.. screw Kryptonite as a weakness) So they like to believe that nothing can ever hurt him and that he is unto a god himself capable of Soloing Specter and The Presence by simply existing.. they tend to wank over this a lot.

Alien X makes this a moot point anyway Alien X only needs 2 out of 3 to agree. Ben can simply get Bellicus (The wrath one) to agree that Superman is a threat and pop he is gone for good.

#320 Posted by TifaLockhart (14043 posts) - - Show Bio

Again with the DC ranting.

#321 Posted by Juiceboks (7964 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt Im going to say this again. FLIGHT speed DOES NOT equal COMBAT speed. If he can fly fast it doesn't mean he fights at the same speed. He's never done anything to suggest he can dodge something going at near lightspeeds so don't say he can when he never has. It doesn't matter if he's never fought a flying foe if he hasn't displayed any super speed in combat then he's not fast enough to dodge Superman plain and simple. How do you know Humongasaur can lift exactly that much? Even if he could that doesn't put him or Vilgax at any where near Supermans strength level so the point is moot. Superman is a lot stronger than Vilgax so he should destroy Chromastone even faster especially since he can throw punches quicker thus adding more force behind them. The sword isn't magical there isn't any evidence of that. Vilgax has never used magic before. The sword is most likely composed of a very durable metal seeing all the stuff it did. All of which Superman could do by the way. If he lets it pass through him then the sheer heat will probably melt him. He can make the beams hotter than the sun so Ben will still feel that.

If they didn't care about the universes existence then why would they care about one Kryptonian? If they didn't care then that's more reason to believe they wouldn't help him. Theyre very stubborn and him convincing the two to destroy one person who bears no threat to anyone other than Ben is not going to happen. Yea he did use Alien X against Aggregor, but he had no choice as he already tried other aliens on him beforehand. He doesn't know anything about Superman so why would he use Alien X before using other aliens? If he transforms then Superman can win via BFR. He throws him into the sun or Phantom Zone. Now has he won? Yes. Theyre not fighting anymore at that point.

Intangibility and invisibility are two different things. He still has to consciously become intangible so Superman can blitz him before he thinks of doing that. Also Superman can go intangible as well by vibrating his body so it would cancel out Big Chill's intangibility. That's literally what happened in the show. He's not beating Superman if both parties are seriously fighting.

It doesn't matter if he can control time, Clockwork is still laughably slow. His reaction time is nothing special so he gets blitzed before he can do anything.

#322 Posted by YoungJustice (6684 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Not really, Ben tends to go for the "cool" aliens rather then the ones that can help him.

It is very likely that he would go Humongasour instead of Ghostfreak.

#323 Posted by Juiceboks (7964 posts) - - Show Bio

@perpetr8rmike See the problem with that is..there are only two entities and they both have to agree. Youre also exaggerating about the whole Superman soloes thing. If anyone really believes he can beat the Spectre then theyre greatly delusional. So how does Ben win this easily? I'm curious to hear what you can come up with.

#324 Edited by MotownLion (1 posts) - - Show Bio

Is this a joke?

#325 Edited by Perpetr8rMike (590 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: Ben makes the third, he is the Tie breaker. They normally vote opposite to one another, Ben is the deciding vote. So 2/3 is all thats needed

#326 Posted by Juiceboks (7964 posts) - - Show Bio

@perpetr8rmike They actually both have to agree to help him. If one does and the other doesn't then they don't do anything to the best of my knowledge. But regardless, he still has to convince atleast one to help which isn't easy if feasible at all in this scenario. They didn't help him during the Highbreed invasion so why would they help him now?

#327 Posted by Perpetr8rMike (590 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: Yes because Bellicus the voice of Aggression and Rage would be all so willing to let the big blue Boyscout beat him up.
Serena is the voice of Love and Compassion.. and they both still wanted to destroy Paradox (An ally of Bens no less)

So why wouldn't they just decide to ride themselves of this little pest attacking them. Do you consider it for extended periods of time before swatting a fly?

Their biggest weakness is wanting to attend to matters of the past first. Hell the first time we see them they are still debating if they should save the dinosaurs.. so their like 65 million years behind the curb. But that doesn't mean they cannot focus on the here and now. We see this in Omniverse.

So Yes Ben Ten as Alien X UberCurbStompofDeath to Superman

#328 Posted by GrandSymbiote94 (11539 posts) - - Show Bio

If Ben tries turns into Alien X, Supes BFRs him to the sun.

#329 Posted by Tohoma (1380 posts) - - Show Bio

Those advocating a win for Ben 10 does he have an answer to supes speed blitz? In all actuality supes is fast enough to put Ben down before he could transform.

#330 Edited by Perpetr8rMike (590 posts) - - Show Bio

@grandsymbiote94: And this would do what exactly.. He can survive in the sun and just come back.

@tohoma: And as the OP stated in a later post he considers this fight starting with Ben already transformed.

#331 Edited by Juiceboks (7964 posts) - - Show Bio

@perpetr8rmike Bellicus isn't some trigger happy being of rage who thirsts for death and destruction. He opted not to do away with the dinosaurs(even though they were long extinct). He's aggressive yet logical. It's more likely he would consider not helping because its not worth his time and would probably deem Superman insignificant. The reason they did what they did to Paradox was because he actually posed a threat to the time stream because of all the jumping around between time periods he does. Superman poses no threat to anyone innocent(especially not them) so they have no reason to do away with him just because Ben wants to kill him. So Alien X is really a gamble and not one Ben would immediately turn to in a fight against an opponent he knows nothing about. He even states he doesn't like using him so why would he go straight for him as opposed to anyone else that doesn't have a huge drawback?

#332 Posted by Perpetr8rMike (590 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: I agree with the Paradox thing, and yes he was a threat to them and must stay 1000 light years away from Alien X's race. However. Why wouldn't he turn into his most powerful foe when he is fighting a foe that is obviously much stronger then anything his others can do. Also he seems to be able to manipulate them as well by wounding their pride. Alien X is Omnipotent so Superman couldn't even hurt him if he did turn into him but he could use it to find out things he might need to know. So its a safety thing, his watch does Time out after awhile. But like I said he can also just point out that "Hey if Superman kills me you won't have a tie breaker." Which they don't want happening either. And if they think Superman is insignificant then why not do what Ben asks.

#333 Posted by HereComesTheBoom_Headshot (321 posts) - - Show Bio

@vrakmul said:

No, just no. While Superman won't kill Ben, as it would be against everything he stands for he will most certainly put him down.

Correct.

Ben is simply too weak to take on Superman in any alien form. Alien X may be able to deliver some damage if the personalities were to agree to a plan and go through with it, but even then, it's almost unlikely it would happen as Superman, not only being stronger, faster, and more durable, would come in close and backhand him.

#334 Posted by Perpetr8rMike (590 posts) - - Show Bio
#335 Posted by HereComesTheBoom_Headshot (321 posts) - - Show Bio
#336 Posted by Juiceboks (7964 posts) - - Show Bio

@perpetr8rmike Assuming that Ben knows all about Superman before the fight starts. All he would tell from looking at him is that he looks strong and maybe can fly. Two powers that Ben has had experience dealing with. What he wont know is how strong Superman is and how fast he can move(along with heat vision, freeze breath etc). Knowing only those two things he wouldn't go straight for Alien X. And once he does realize how powerful Superman is..then its already too late. If Ben does actually go straight for X then how does he make a case for himself? What's he gonna say that will convince them that Ben needs them to kill him? Superman bears no danger to anything significant so they would more than likely deem it unnecessary and tell him not to bother them with something so insignificant. Remember they are constantly debating on things so its not like they don't have anything else to do. If Ben says that he will die then they will ask him to make a case. They will probably question him with things like, " Can he cross galaxies in seconds?" or "Could he decimate the cosmos on a whim?" To which Ben would have no answer other than, " He's pretty strong". Because he doesn't know anything about him. And if he tries to lie then I think they would see through that and would be even more unwilling to help.

#337 Posted by RBT (4120 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboksName one character who can fly at near light speed and fights like a sloth. I'm not saying that Cstone can throw punches as fast as Supes. No, he can't. But he's fast enough to dodge most of his punches. Also, Supes won't go too close to him, as closer he gets, more will be the chances of betting hit by his red sun radiation.

In ep. Video Games Humagasaur lifted Washington Tower which weighs almost 82k tons. That was when he was 9ft tall. And he can go more than that since he was not tired at all after that. Just imagine what a full grown Hsaur can do. And he's taken down in one punch by Vilgax. Same Vilgax punched Chromastone many times and he's not even fighting back. If sword wasn't magical then explain how it could fire up, grow rock all over it, absorb energy an all that. Vilgax never practiced magic, but maybe one of the 10 heroes he defeated did. He found the sword handy and kept it. Even if sword was not magical, it was pretty serious alien tech.

No they don't care about a kryptonian. Just like they didn't care about the dam that broke. Just like they didn't care about earth going to be blown or universe getting wiped out of existance. But they still did all those things. And Ben don't have to convince both of hem. His safer and quicker choice will be trying to convince Bellicus. He's more impulsive and anger-ridden. He's proud. So he probably won't like the fact that there is someone out there trying to throw alien x's body into sun or phantom zone. And even if Supes does manage to throw ALIEN X's body into phantom zone, fight won't be over. Ben still is preparing for the attack. If you are fighting with someone using an AK47 and you stop to reload, battle doesn't end there. If your opponent kills you or knocks you out while you're reloading THEN you loose. When Ben is convincing Bellicus, he's reloading. If Supes kills him during this(which is impossible), then he wins. Otherwise, wait for Alien X to mave a move and then attack. He probably won't live long after seeing Alien X move anyway. About Ben transforming into ALIEN X arguement. Ok, he doesn't transform into ALIEN X direct away, just like Supes doesn't just blitz away any opponent with his heat vision. Say ben transforms into Hsaur at first, realises Supes is too strong for this form, changes to U Way Big or something and finally he's in similar situation like one when he was with Aggregor. And before you say that what if Supes kill him when he's Hsau or some other alien, Ben will come back. Like I said omnitrix has a protection feature. If Ben dies while in ANY alien form, he'll comeback into the closest DNA alien. Omnitrix is completely indestructible. Superman can fire all heat vision he wants, he won't be able to melt that thing. Why would Ult. Big Chill turn tangible again. Once he turns intangilbe,which he will within a picosecond or two after his transformation. Even if SUpes manage to hit him once or twice by his heat vision while he's turning intangible, it won't kill U Big Chill. Big Chills, who are very less powerful compared to U Big Chill lives on a freaking sun. Superman needs to do more than just one or two heat vision shots to destroy him.

Same goes with ghost freak. He can turn invisible and posses Supes. AND about your argument that GF won't be able to catch Supes to posses him, we're forgetting that GF has telekenitic powers as well. He can stop or slow Superman down enough to possses him. The make pull his own insides out. Game over.

#338 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio

Can't resist: Ben scans krytonian DNA and proceeds to fight supes for a while. Then ,when they both are badly hurt, goes waybig and beats him. :D

#339 Posted by RBT (4120 posts) - - Show Bio

Is this a joke?

Not really. No.

@perpetr8rmike They actually both have to agree to help him. If one does and the other doesn't then they don't do anything to the best of my knowledge. But regardless, he still has to convince atleast one to help which isn't easy if feasible at all in this scenario. They didn't help him during the Highbreed invasion so why would they help him now?

No only one have to agree with Ben. That's why they called Ben a tie breaker. I mean if they both had to agree, how could Ben be tie-breaker? They didn't help Ben during Highbreed invasion because Ben never turned into Alien X during invasion.

If Ben tries turns into Alien X, Supes BFRs him to the sun.

And Alien X comes back without so much as a sun burn on his body.

@tohoma said:

Those advocating a win for Ben 10 does he have an answer to supes speed blitz? In all actuality supes is fast enough to put Ben down before he could transform.

Read earlier arguments. Ben transforms, then battle begins.

@perpetr8rmike Bellicus isn't some trigger happy being of rage who thirsts for death and destruction. He opted not to do away with the dinosaurs(even though they were long extinct). He's aggressive yet logical. It's more likely he would consider not helping because its not worth his time and would probably deem Superman insignificant. The reason they did what they did to Paradox was because he actually posed a threat to the time stream because of all the jumping around between time periods he does. Superman poses no threat to anyone innocent(especially not them) so they have no reason to do away with him just because Ben wants to kill him. So Alien X is really a gamble and not one Ben would immediately turn to in a fight against an opponent he knows nothing about. He even states he doesn't like using him so why would he go straight for him as opposed to anyone else that doesn't have a huge drawback?

He probably liked Dianasaurs more than humans. That doesn't actually show his compassion and care towards them.

@juiceboks: I agree with the Paradox thing, and yes he was a threat to them and must stay 1000 light years away from Alien X's race. However. Why wouldn't he turn into his most powerful foe when he is fighting a foe that is obviously much stronger then anything his others can do. Also he seems to be able to manipulate them as well by wounding their pride. Alien X is Omnipotent so Superman couldn't even hurt him if he did turn into him but he could use it to find out things he might need to know. So its a safety thing, his watch does Time out after awhile. But like I said he can also just point out that "Hey if Superman kills me you won't have a tie breaker." Which they don't want happening either. And if they think Superman is insignificant then why not do what Ben asks.

That actually could work. Dang! Why didn't I come up with this?

@perpetr8rmike said:

@herecomestheboom_headshot: But could he damage Alien X?

Reasonably. Alien X isn't invincible.

Actually, he is. He's as invincible as one could get.

@perpetr8rmike Assuming that Ben knows all about Superman before the fight starts. All he would tell from looking at him is that he looks strong and maybe can fly. Two powers that Ben has had experience dealing with. What he wont know is how strong Superman is and how fast he can move(along with heat vision, freeze breath etc). Knowing only those two things he wouldn't go straight for Alien X. And once he does realize how powerful Superman is..then its already too late. If Ben does actually go straight for X then how does he make a case for himself? What's he gonna say that will convince them that Ben needs them to kill him? Superman bears no danger to anything significant so they would more than likely deem it unnecessary and tell him not to bother them with something so insignificant. Remember they are constantly debating on things so its not like they don't have anything else to do. If Ben says that he will die then they will ask him to make a case. They will probably question him with things like, " Can he cross galaxies in seconds?" or "Could he decimate the cosmos on a whim?" To which Ben would have no answer other than, " He's pretty strong". Because he doesn't know anything about him. And if he tries to lie then I think they would see through that and would be even more unwilling to help.

Serena and Bellicus are ultimate beings. They won't ask Ben those questions since they already would know the answers.

#340 Posted by GrandSymbiote94 (11539 posts) - - Show Bio

@grandsymbiote94: A

nd this would do what exactly.. He can survive in the sun and just come back.

@rbt said:

@grandsymbiote94 said:

If Ben tries turns into Alien X, Supes BFRs him to the sun.

And Alien X comes back without so much as a sun burn on his body.

I wasn't saying he would get burned or anything of the sort. BFR is a win condition and that's how Supes will win if Ben turns to Alien X. OP didn't say BFR wasn't an option. Also it would take Ben too long to convince to come back to earth, Supes will be sittin at the fortress of solitude chillin by the time Alien X comes back.

#341 Edited by RBT (4120 posts) - - Show Bio

@grandsymbiote94 said:

@perpetr8rmike said:

@grandsymbiote94: A

nd this would do what exactly.. He can survive in the sun and just come back.

@rbt said:

@grandsymbiote94 said:

If Ben tries turns into Alien X, Supes BFRs him to the sun.

And Alien X comes back without so much as a sun burn on his body.

I wasn't saying he would get burned or anything of the sort. BFR is a win condition and that's how Supes will win if Ben turns to Alien X. OP didn't say BFR wasn't an option. Also it would take Ben too long to convince to come back to earth, Supes will be sittin at the fortress of solitude chillin by the time Alien X comes back.

And kills him. BFR is a final condition. If someone can return from dead, they are not actually dead. So, if Alien X can come back from the sun, he's not actually BFR'd. And it has never taken Ben more than half hour(one ep.) to convince Alien X. And with the ways I mentioned above, it won't take him even that long. So, Supes can chill in FOS for his last 10 min. No one'll hold it against him.

#342 Posted by Juiceboks (7964 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt I never said he was as slow as a sloth. He's just never showed any super speed in combat. You cant prove that he has so you cant assume just because he can fly he can fight fast. That's not how that works. Thor can fly way faster than the speed of light but he can fight at supersonic speeds at most. He's been blitzed by Spider Man before. Super speed and flight are two different things. Most people on this site will tell you the exact same thing I'm saying and its a concept you should learn to grasp if you wish to debate properly. You just said he's not as fast Superman and then you said he's gonna dodge his punches? Only one part of that makes sense and I think you know which one. When has he ever emitted a certain type of radiation constantly in combat? One that he would have no reason to emit because he shouldn't know Supermans weakness.

I'm not gonna repeat myself on the Alien X argument just look at what I said right above you. He's not reloading so much as he is basically calling for a timeout in the middle of a fight. To which Superman can send him into the Phantom Zone or into orbit and be done with the fight. BFR is a valid way to win. Vilgax's sword was most likely alien tech as that would explain everything it did. Absorbing energy, cutting through a spaceship, alien tech is pretty prominent in the show so that's the most logical explanation. So yea..unless you can prove it was magic because Vilgax himself or Gwen said it was..it wasn't and theres no reason to assume so. Lifting the tower is impressive(link?)..but that doesn't put him at Supermans level of strength. Nor is it any reason to assume that him growing bigger will. Youre speculating a lot here. Strength doesn't always mean someone has to be as strong as you to knock you out. Hulk held up a mountain but has been knocked out by Doc Samson who(obviously) is not as strong as him. Vilgax knocking Humongasaur out is just more reason to say that Superman can do the exact same thing even easier. Vilgax is not stronger or faster than Superman. I dare you to try and prove that he is. If he goes Humongasaur then he gets knocked out and reverts to Ben. Fights done. Way Big? Knocked out and reverts to Ben. Ult Big Chill? blitzed via PUNCHING and reverts to an unconscious Ben. Big Chill doesn't live on the Sun that makes no sense. He lives on a half molten half frozen planet(which makes even less sense if you think about it). It doesn't matter much anyway as Superman can in fact make his heat vision hotter than sun. Not that he would need to in this scenario.

Ben has never used TK with Ghostfreak before. Even if he did theres nothing to suggest his TK is strong enough to render someone who can move as fast and is as strong as Superman incapable of movement. Even saying it would slow him down is a stretch and again you are speculating.

#343 Posted by GrandSymbiote94 (11539 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

@grandsymbiote94 said:

@perpetr8rmike said:

@grandsymbiote94: A

nd this would do what exactly.. He can survive in the sun and just come back.

@rbt said:

@grandsymbiote94 said:

If Ben tries turns into Alien X, Supes BFRs him to the sun.

And Alien X comes back without so much as a sun burn on his body.

I wasn't saying he would get burned or anything of the sort. BFR is a win condition and that's how Supes will win if Ben turns to Alien X. OP didn't say BFR wasn't an option. Also it would take Ben too long to convince to come back to earth, Supes will be sittin at the fortress of solitude chillin by the time Alien X comes back.

And kills him. BFR is a final condition. If someone can return from dead, they are not actually dead. So, if Alien X can come back from the sun, he's not actually BFR'd. And it has never taken Ben more than half hour(one ep.) to convince Alien X. And with the ways I mentioned above, it won't take him even that long. So, Supes can chill in FOS for his last 10 min. No one'll hold it against him.

1. In the scenario I said that Supes will be home by the time Alien X comes back. When he leaves the battlefield after he BFRs Alien X the battle is over then and whe Alien X does come back a new battle starts up again. So technically Superman won this battle. :P

2. You never knew how long it took him to convince uuum (forgot names.) using show length compared to in show length is silly. That's like saying that in the Ben 10 movie everything that happened was only in a hour and 30 minute period which we all know that's wrong.

Also sorry for poor grammar.

#344 Posted by Perpetr8rMike (590 posts) - - Show Bio

I do so love how Superman fans think Superman can hit Lightspeed instantly. He has never been shown doing that he flies at a high speed and then increases his speed to Lightspeed over a distance. Even Flash is commonly depicted as running around the world to build up momentum for the IMP and he actually can accelerate to FTL instantly.
But I know Superman is faster then the Flash can stop time and remake the universe at will and all that nonsense you people believe. He still does not show it consistently.

And no if Superman flies the fight to the Sun and then runs away.. then he is FLEEING the battle and so he loses. But that does fit when he fights stronger foes to run to someone who could potentially help. Like he did when Cythonna was beating his ass he ran to the sun and Rao to get help.

If Superman attacked Alien X. Bellicus would simply agree to unmake him. Now I know there are some Fans who are saying "No he is a good guy so Bellicus wouldn't hurt him he would like him" but Bellicus is the embodiment of Anger and Aggression and if you punched him he will end you. I know you believe once Bellicus met Superman he would find Superman in his heart and accept him as his one personal lord and savior but.. just not happening.

#345 Posted by RBT (4120 posts) - - Show Bio

@grandsymbiote94 Supes can only defeat Alien X by BFRing him, KOing him or killing him. Throwing him into sun is like scoring first goal in soccer match and leaving the game. That's not how it works.

#346 Edited by Juiceboks (7964 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt What do humans have to do with a debate over the fate of dinosaurs? That shows he's a logical being who isn't all KILL KILL KILL everything like you made him out to be. He has fondness for certain life he's just usually aggressive when it comes to deciding upon courses of action. Omnipotence and omniscience are two different things. If they knew everything then why would they be debating over the fate of dinosaurs when they have been long gone extinct? The answer is they know a lot, but not everything and you cant prove they know about Superman. You really need to stop speculating.

#347 Posted by Kuzman123 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

This isnt even a match up....superman runs him over in 2 secs.

#348 Posted by GrandSymbiote94 (11539 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

@grandsymbiote94 Supes can only defeat Alien X by BFRing him, KOing him or killing him. Throwing him into sun is like scoring first goal in soccer match and leaving the game. That's not how it works.

Nice analogy. But what is Superman going to do wait? I'm pretty sure Alien X will be sitting in the sun for a long time, before he leaves. That's kinda the point I was getting at.

#349 Posted by GrandSymbiote94 (11539 posts) - - Show Bio

And no if Superman flies the fight to the Sun and then runs away.. then he is FLEEING the battle and so he loses. But that does fit when he fights stronger foes to run to someone who could potentially help. Like he did when Cythonna was beating his ass he ran to the sun and Rao to get help.

Idk if this part was addressed to me or not but, I meant throwing Alien X, not actually flying toward the sun. Also I'm not a fanboy, I just think Superman wins and giving my thought on how he could win.

#350 Posted by Perpetr8rMike (590 posts) - - Show Bio

@grandsymbiote94: Except he would have thrown them into the sun in an attempt to kill him. Which might just piss off Serena and Bellicus.