Ben Kenobi & Ben Skywalker vs Count Dooku(RoTS) & Darth Maul

EU Feats Included DUH!

A New Hope Ben.

Maul has regular legs and is in his CW's Prime.

Uncle and Nephew take on 2 Siths. Battle takes place on the Death Star. Starting distance 5 yards. Standard Equipment and power levels.

No Prep or help. Round 1 Morals On. Round 2 Morals Off.

This is somewhat a mismatch in favor of team 2... Team 2 takes the lead in dueling and significantly overshadow team 1 in TK. And Dooku still has Lightning.

Anyone got feats for Ben Skywalker? Because it looks like Team 2 curbstomps.

@intrepid37: I don't feel like racing through sources for feats, but he has comparable speed. The issue is that he is relatively inexperienced, so his dueling is the worst here.

ANH Obi Wan is way weaksauce.

As a duelist he contended perfectly fine against ANH Vader, although the latter isn't in his prime. So I suppose he is an inferior duelist to Dooku but almost equal to Maul, if not entirely equal. Unfortunately he appears to be quite lacking in TK feats.

@intrepid37: @shootingnova: I remember seeing somewhere of Ben Skywalker reacting to mutiple non-force sensitives enemies all at once as if in slow motion while seeing a door shutting down and a droid discharging it's blaster. IIRC. Also in the ANH Novelization Ben was able to discharge his lightsaber and cut, that guy who was bothering Luke in the bar's, arm off in a second's time of the guy taking out his weapon and reacting to his dismembered limb . Even though Old Ben has lacking TK feats I would assume Skywalker's TK feats still would slightly surpass Maul's. I'm not sure about that though. But that's unlikely. I'll agree team 2 takes it.

Shootingnova basicly summed it up perfectly. Team 2 should take the vast majority.

That being said, I'm glad Ben Skywalker is getting some battle forum play, he's one of my favorite Jedi.

@earthquake_2123: He has seen the world in slow-motion, which is just about universal among noted Force-sensitives. I believe he has also outran missiles, but that's Ventress speed at best and Dooku is still faster.

And you said this is Clone Wars Maul, who has manipulated Republic shuttles, collapsed parts of caves, destroyed droids with ease, regularly choked Obi-Wan, etc.

@dccomicsrule2011: I like Ben also. You think he'll ever be Luke level? I would like to see him take the mantle of Super Jedi in the Star Wars Universe. @shootingnova: I fully agree. Thanks for the input. Most threads I make only get two bumps lol.

@earthquake_2123: Any time.

Frankly I don't see Ben being as powerful as Luke (if you're referencing NJO Luke). Ever. He could be almost as powerful as Obi-Wan, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go.

This thread could be closer if you made it RotS Obi-Wan and RotJ Luke.

Team 2, absolutely.

Team 2

Obi-wan was able to basically stalemate a Vader who was more powerful than the one he fought on Mustafar.. so i would actually argue that ANH Obi-Wan is at least equal to Dooku and is superior to Maul. The problem is i don't think Ben Skywalker can contend with either of those two as a swordsman, maybe he is close in raw force power, as he is a Skywalker, but he hasn't shown anything that convinces me he can hold his own for too long against duelists of their caliber. Team 2 takes this 8/10, mostly because Skywalker is not on the level of the other 3 combatants, and obviously Old Ben cannot defeat both Maul and Dooku.

Old Ben Kenobi, is nothing like Dooku. Dooku's makashi style creates economic movements and this is no disadvantage of him. But both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's styles are gives them handicap.

And Vader become slower than RotS Anakin. Not weaker but slower, so Ben could hold Vader for 3 or 5 minutes and he has no chance to win against more experienced Vader, but against RotS Anakin he would fail quickly.

@erkan12: Vader at the time of ANH has speed that is easily comparable to his RotS speed, I would argue that it was equal. Not to mention that Vader had perfected a brutal and efficient form that more than made up for what little, if any, he lost where dueling is concerned, while also being leagues stronger physically and more powerful than in RotS. As for Kenobi in this era, I didn't say he was similar to Dooku but that they were comparable in skill. Don't let A New Hope's choreography fool you, Ben and Vader were as proficient as ever with a lightsaber. I even tend to believe that Kenobi was better than ever at this time, that is, if we follow the pattern set by other Jedi that they get better with age.

@kingjedi

Ben absolutely not in his prime at ANH. His prime was RotS. Maybe even at TPM, he may better than ANH, he lost his acrobatic movements and agility. It is not about choreography, these quotes from ANH ;

Ben : I need your help, Luke. She needs your help. I'm getting too old for this sort of thing.

Vader : Your powers are weak, old man.

Also this video shows some tips about TPM Maul vs. Ben,

TPM Maul vs. ANH Vader ;

@erkan12: So what..? He still won against an amped Maul. Vader may not be as acrobatic but he did not lose agility, look up some things he did during the Purge, I dont have time to find these scans right now. Also you completely lost me when you claimed TPM Obi-Wan was perhaps prime Obi-Wan..

@erkan12: Your quotes prove nothing, your video proves nothing, and I lold @TPM obi being prime

Who says it was ''amped'' , i read the comic, there is no part saying that.

Yes Vader won against TPM Maul, but hardly and he get serious damages.

And i didn't say, TPM Obi-Wan was prime, i said maybe better than ANH Old Ben Kenobi... RotS was Kenobi's prime.

@imboredletsdebate

Read again what i said. And learn something about SW.

@erkan12: I apologize if I misunderstood. I do fully disagree that TPM Obi-Wan was better than ANH Obi-Wan,TPM Obi-Wan probably couldn't last more than a minute against Vader. Like I said, following the pattern set by other Jedi, they get better with age, also he fought a more powerful Vader to, arguably, an impasse. These two points lead me to believe that ANH Ben was at least as, if not more powerful than his RotS counterpart. Also the Maul doppelganger was ressurected in a dark side nexus. I doubt he would even have any effect outside of Kalakar VI, though that last part might be a tad bit speculative.

@kingjedi: It was noted in the ANH Novel that Ben and Vader said they were "a shell of their former self" so neither were as powerful as their RoTS counter parts. A NOOOO way is Vader as fast as Anakin who was doing stuff like out running missiles, encompassing his entire body in light with his saber and being seen as if he were in multiple places at once. Here is link to one his speed and TK feats just scroll down. http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/ahsoka-tano-vs-starkiller-vs-anakin-skywalker-1525362/ ANH Vader's best speed and Force TK feats are far below Padawan Anakin let alone Jedi Knight Anakin. You are a bit misinformed. Also Vader didn't master every form in ANH. He was used to use a strictly Djem So offensive and fast/mobile style of fight but since he lost a lot of that speed and mobility due to his cybernetics so he had to incorporate The other six forms of light saber combat a more complete focused and less flashy style to make up for the suit hampering his movement. I do agree Vader could be physically stronger and a lot more durable due to his suit. But I could argue that Anakin and Vader have about the same strength feats physically, but as I said before RotS Anakin>>>AHN Vader in speed and force prowess.(not to say Vader wasn't powerful) Vader didn't reach his RoTS prime in the power department until the RoTJ timeline and even then he was much behind Anakin in speed and slightly offensive force powers. Vaders best TK are tossing around Tie Fighters with some effort and 300 meter ships. Anakin best TIPPING a resisting Conquer Class-Dreadnaught filled with Droids with some effort. That thing was said to be able destroy the planet.

@kingjedi: Here's a quote from the RoTS Novel "…you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory…" -Sidious

I'm well aware of what these jedi were shown doing in Tartakovsky's Clone Wars, but these are all exaggerated showings, which are also not canon any longer thanks to The Clone Wars CGI series. Also If you want to start pulling things from the novelizations from over 30 years ago we can, and you will see things that you would laugh at continuity wise. As for the RotS novel quote; sure, but that was directly after receiving his cybernetics, he had clearly grown and adjusted in the years to follow. I also never said he mastered every lightsaber form, not sure where that came from.. As for comparing Vader and Anakin, Vader is easily, quite clearly far physically stronger than Anakin, that is something that has been stated a few times before. Vader lifts people off the ground with one hand and crushes their necks killing them instantly. It is also said that he has the strength to crush his lightsaber within his hand. I am not misinformed... though I am well-read. As for speed, it seems you may be slightly misinformed on the abilities Vader develops and the feats he accomplishes in the time between RotS and ANH. Vader was taking on full rebel outposts alone and things of that magnitude, dealing with incomprehensible amounts of blaster fire. At another point he takes on 5 Jedi masters, 2 jedi knights and a padawan all at once. Also here is a quote on Vader's speed from Ferus Olin in ''The Last of the Jedi: Secret Weapon": "It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart". This, coming from a Jedi who was a contemporary of Anakin's at the temple, one who had seen him up close and personal, often along with his master, working with Obi-Wan and Anakin. Olin had personally seen all the notable Jedi of that era in action. I stand by my argument that the speed difference, if any, is negligible.

@earthquake_2123: Vaders best TK are tossing around Tie Fighters with some effort and 300 meter ships

Really? To my knowledge, Vader has tossed around Y-wings and V-wings, but those are nowhere near 300 meters, only about 20 meters.

As for comparing Vader and Anakin, Vader is easily, quite clearly far physically stronger than Anakin, that is something that has been stated a few times before. Vader lifts people off the ground with one hand and crushes their necks killing them instantly.

Good for him. Anakin hit his own lightsaber onto Ventress' lightsaber with so much force that the stone floor beneath them cracked.

It is also said that he has the strength to crush his lightsaber within his hand

Source?

@intrepid37: My bad it was V Wings and Y wings but I was talking about the ones shown here.

That show its self has a bunch of continuity eras lol and don't try to deny canon/lowball feats or stated facts to try to prove your unsubstantiated point. It doesn't make your argument. look better. Your second point is invalid because I didn't deny Vader grew after the years since he gained his cybernetics, I said that he didn't reach his RoTS prime until the RoTJ timeline. NOT in ANH because I said he and Ben stated that they were "shells of their former selves" that means he was not even close to as powerful as he use to be Pre-Suit. Your 3rd point...and? Anakin hit Dooku with the metaphorical force of a Meteor Strike shown here and speed feat shown here

Skywalker was all over him. The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker—Skywalker was getting stronger.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

"I'm a slow learner," Anakin replied coolly, and he came on then, so suddenly, so powerfully, his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light.

...Anakin worked the two blades in perfect harmony, spinning them over and about with blinding speed and precision.

--Taken from the Attack of the Clones novel

There isn't a strength feat(Force wise also) or speed feat you've shown that Anakin can't replicate or hasn't already surpassed. Anakin doing that and out running missiles, encasing himself in light, and being in multiple places in once PLUS tipping Concquer Class Dreadnaughts>>>>Vader speed blitzing a FEATLESS Roan. On top of that Anakin was doing this stuff at Padawan level lol. Face it Anakin Night or rookie>>>>>ANH Vader in speed and strength

As for speed, it seems you may be slightly misinformed on the abilities Vader develops and the feats he accomplishes in the time between RotS and ANH. Nooo..I know what he's capable of, you're just overestimating him. Show me more feats to back up this claim of yours

@earthquake_2123: Ben is awesome lol his girl friend is a sith! I doubt he will ever be as powerful as Luke though because of his lack of feats, although he should be at that level for many reasons like being Luke and Mara's son they are both extremely powerful in the force. That should make him naturally more power than he is.

@kingjedi: not mention only two of them where Jedi masters and it wasn't all once. Plus they were all FEATLESS.

@rainx20: Same thing could be said for everyone within the Skywalker lineage but that doesn't mean it's so. If so why isn't Lei as powerful as Luke?

Not to bump this without referencing the actual thread itself, but I do think it's already been settled. Instead, I wanted to clear some issues:

Vader is about as fast as Anakin, who would be faster by just about a negligible margin at best. Vader being able to throw his blade around his body to form a shield is about even with Anakin encompassing his body in the light of his blade, and Vader has moved fast enough to appear to teleport, generate afterimages, and move faster than Ferus Olin (who has deflected and dodged blaster bolts) could react. There should be an insignificant speed disparity between the two. Now, agility is certainly in Anakin's favor by a considerable margin, but that is not the same as speed.

Quite a bold claim, don't you think? This is particularly audacious, and I'm not sure what inspired you to think this. Vader has collapsed cathedrals, knocked down titanic trees, crushed colossal droids, and so on all before his prime. His feats are more than a match for moving a droid platform, if that was the feat you were referencing (since you posted a link to it).

As for Anakin as a whole, moving a Conqueror-class Destroyer rivals Vader's best TK feats. They are about even in this regard.

He is not physically stronger, but he is more durable.

Possibly, but not by the margin you are throwing it out to be.

He was never "much behind" Anakin in anything except for agility.

No, his best TK feats are collapsing cathedrals, crushing building-sized droids and knocking down gargantuan trees, all before his prime. He also hurled a small army of men, which I recall was done prior to being in his prime, and as it appears to have cost him little more than moderate effort.

@shootingnova: Thanks for the clear up, but I just realized this thread has strayed completely away from the OP lol. None of it has mention of Vader/Anakin in it.

@earthquake_2123: Well, I did say that the battle itself had already been decided. Team 2 wins every time.

Clearing some other things:

As of ANH, Vader was not more powerful than Anakin. The one Obi-Wan fought on Mustafar was emotionally conflicted and had reached a height of arrogance, which was why Obi-Wan defeated him, not by virtue of skill.

We know from sources such as Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force that Ben Kenobi had been slowed by age and lack of practice, and the latter also contributed to deteriorating dueling altogether.

Conversely, Dooku was never slowed by age thanks to his mastery of the Force. If anything, he remained as fit as a man half his age, according to himself.

As a duelist, Tyranus has defeated/stalemated Windu, defeated Obi-Wan, defeated AotC Anakin, stalemated Anakin during their duel on Tatooine, defeated him on Kadavo (although Anakin was uncomfortable wielding a lightwhip, of course), contended with Skywalker in every other scenario, contended with Yoda, defeated Grievous, stomped Ventress, stalemated Ventress and two of the best Nightsister bladesmen while drugged, beaten Sora Bulq and Tholme, and so on.

Ben Kenobi stalemated Darth Vader, whose feats include defeating Celeste Morne, defeating Roan Shyrne, defeating Ferus Olin, defeating the Dark Woman, defeating five Jedi in simultaneity, and contending with an amped Maul. While impressive, these aren't feats on Dooku's level. Dooku surpasses Kenobi as a duelist, is stronger and faster, has significantly better telekinesis, and has Lightning which could be used in a close proximity.

@shootingnova: I never bought that Kenobi was slowed by age as he was only 57. I have read some of Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force, though I do not own it and I do remember it mentioning Ben being out of practice, but age shouldn't have really been a factor. Not saying you're incorrect just that it is something that I never was willing to accept. Another thing I dont buy is Anakin being so emotional and conflicted having negative influence on his abilities.. Yes of course he was but it is the same Anakin who ran through the Jedi temple with ease. Again, not saying you're wrong, just that I dont buy it. Lol not that that means much.

Also dooku remarked that Anakin and Obi-wan were both on his level when revealing their advanced swordsmanship after initially hustling him at the beginning of their duel on the Invisible Hand. So I think that Ben could have been around the same level as Dooku. Man this thread has gotten so off topic and messy.. Lol

Whether you accept it or not is irrelevant because it's canon. The truth is that age and lack of practice slowed his movements:

A generation later, Obi-Wan Kenobi would face Darth Vader once again. While Vader wanted revenge, Obi-Wan was focused on buying time for his friends - including Luke Skywalker. Their duel was careful and measured compared to their previous meeting. Obi-Wan's movements were slowed by age and lack of practice; Darth Vader - recalling the grievous injuries he suffered during their last encounter - fought his former Master with apprehension, while his cybernetic body reduced his actions. Ultimately, Obi-Wan deliberately dropped his defenses, and Darth Vader cut through him, but the Jedi Master mysteriously vanished into the Force.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

Again, this is irrelevant. Anakin was facing his best friend, somebody he regarded as not only a mentor, but a brother and father. Your opinion is noted, but the fact is that Anakin was torn and was not fighting to the best of his ability. For that matter, even Lucas said Anakin had also reached a height of arrogance. These were contributing factors to his defeat. Under normal circumstances, Anakin should have beaten Obi-Wan with some difficulty. He simply has better feats.

But even Sidious hadn't foreseen Anakin's defeat by Obi-Wan Kenobi on Mustafar.Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable.

Source: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

This was more to do with their transition between forms, rather than just pure skill, but then again, it was two of the most skilled members of the order attacking him in simultaneity. Dooku has more than sufficient feats to indicate he could certainly defeat Obi-Wan, but the fact that Obi-Wan was fighting together with Anakin (somebody who has almost defeated Dooku several times in the past) was a severe disadvantage. Dooku was more hindered by the fact that there were two opponents, but frankly, Anakin is the one posing the major threat here, considering his Djem So is the perfect counter for Dooku's Makashi. Had Kenobi been alone, Dooku would have certainly won.

Not sure why this would be so. Ben was stated to be slower and his dueling skill was stated to have deteriorated since RotS. Dooku has better dueling feats than Vader anyways, so dueling as an equal to Vader does not mean dueling as an equal to Dooku.

I've already addressed that - but it doesn't matter. The outcome of the thread was decided long ago. All I wanted to do was clear up some issues so as to not misinform the public.

@shootingnova: I was just sharing my opinions and concerns with what I felt were inconsistencies, not denying their existence in canon sources. Still with Vader and Obi-Wan in RotS, Obi-Wan was fighting his Brother/Son/Best Friend too. He pleaded with Yoda to go fight Anakin and let him fight the Emperor. They were both in a state of emotional turmoil. There was a point when both of them let go and finished the fight as true enemies. So I still dont think that had much influence on the duel.

@kingjedi: There is no inconsistency. Sources have told us that Old Ben Kenobi had deteriorated since RotS, and that's fact. There has never been stated otherwise.

As for Anakin and Obi-Wan, the issue is that Anakin was between the light and dark sides, as opposed to Obi-Wan who was resolutely within the realm of the Light Side. That, combined with his arrogance, led to his defeat. Every source mentioning the fight has reiterated that.

I repeat - Anakin's feats exceed Obi-Wan's. He should win in a regular encounter.

@shootingnova: I was not referring to inconsistency as in statements across sources. I was talking about inconsistency in "in-universe" logic. As for their dueling feats, i don't see how there is much of a difference there. To this point Obi-Wan had stalemated/defeated Maul, as a Padawan (though at that point was basically a Knight), he defeated Ventress a couple times, then late in the Clone Wars defeated both Darth Maul and Savage Opress together. He also dominated Grievous in the lightsaber portion of their fight.

Maul or Douku need to be taken out to make this more fair. Otherwise team 2 rather comfortably

This is just a mismatch.