#1 Edited by nickzambuto (11423 posts) - - Show Bio

An abandoned city, plagued by an army of monsters.

Simple enough?

Each monster is a 2 tonner with speed and agility to match; they are completely mindless and bloodthirsty.

All combatants have been infected. Unfortunately, each team only has one antidote. It is your mission to find the opposing team, and steal their antidote to cure you and your partner. Teams start on opposite ends of the city, and have five hours to get their hands on their enemies serum.

Meanwhile, the monsters are still running rampant. Good luck.

Contestants and their team as follows.

NickZ

Leon Scott Kennedy - Blacktail, Riot Gun, Semi-Automatic Rifle, Chicago Typewriter, Flash Bangs, Combat Knife, RPG

Nathan Drake - .45 Defender, Moss 12, AK-47, Grenades, M32 Hammer, Riot Shield

Nolan Batman: Second Batsuit, Batarangs, Explosives Launcher, Utility Belt

RDJ Sherlock Holmes: Twin Canes, Shock Baton

#2 Posted by Esquire (3742 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Remember Nick, you said Bruce could have his Sonar Vision, too.

#3 Posted by nickzambuto (11423 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@nickzambuto: Remember Nick, you said Bruce could have his Sonar Vision, too.

That's just built into the cowl, which goes along with "Second Batsuit"

That's why I didn't put it directly in the OP.

#4 Posted by Esquire (3742 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@Esquire said:

@nickzambuto: Remember Nick, you said Bruce could have his Sonar Vision, too.

That's just built into the cowl, which goes along with "Second Batsuit"

That's why I didn't put it directly in the OP.

Just making sure, in case you tried to pull a fast one. I'm covering all my bases with you this time, sir!

#5 Posted by nickzambuto (11423 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@nickzambuto said:

@Esquire said:

@nickzambuto: Remember Nick, you said Bruce could have his Sonar Vision, too.

That's just built into the cowl, which goes along with "Second Batsuit"

That's why I didn't put it directly in the OP.

Just making sure, in case you tried to pull a fast one. I'm covering all my bases with you this time, sir!

Hopefully you don't completely abandon this match like you did Vamp vs Daken.

#6 Posted by XImpossibruX (5029 posts) - - Show Bio

Nathan Drake............

NickZ you better have a helluva argument for this guy, because i've seen Drake get trashed so many times in Lara Croft vs Nathan Drake debates.

#7 Posted by Esquire (3742 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@Esquire said:

@nickzambuto said:

@Esquire said:

@nickzambuto: Remember Nick, you said Bruce could have his Sonar Vision, too.

That's just built into the cowl, which goes along with "Second Batsuit"

That's why I didn't put it directly in the OP.

Just making sure, in case you tried to pull a fast one. I'm covering all my bases with you this time, sir!

Hopefully you don't completely abandon this match like you did Vamp vs Daken.

Wait, it was my turn? I don't remember getting a pm. I'll have to get back to that one. But first, prepare yourself for my awesome powers of debate with low-tier movie characters!

#8 Posted by Esquire (3742 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Okay, so the scenario has us start at opposite ends of the city, and we have to find each other. Luckily, I have Batman's sonar cowl, so I can find you with ease. And with his grapple gun and cape, we can traverse the city effectively, as well.

Once they've mounted the rooftop, they'll start moving towards your team while Sherlock and Bruce formulate a plan. Sherlock has uncanny predictive capabilities, and movie Bruce, while not in comics Bats level, has made some very elaborate plans in the past. With their intellects combined, they'l be able to figure out where your team is going to go. Then, using Batman's timed explosive launcher, they can set up a trap. They'll use the explosives to knock down a building between your team members, cutting them off from each other. Drake has never fought a stealthy enemy, so he'll have no answer to Batman. With the darkness of the city in the OP, Bruce has plenty of places to exercise his stealth prowess, and he can one-shot Drake from behind, like he has to numerous characters throughout the films.

Leon will be more difficult, but with smoke bombs and flashbangs employed to distract him and Sherlock's brilliance in knowing where to throw them, they'll be able to distract him long enough for either one of them to engage him in h2h. Both are formidable at close range, and with their weaponry they can dominate. With the two of them together, Leon will go down hard.

#9 Posted by nickzambuto (11423 posts) - - Show Bio

@XImpossibruX said:

Nathan Drake............

NickZ you better have a helluva argument for this guy, because i've seen Drake get trashed so many times in Lara Croft vs Nathan Drake debates.

Have you played Uncharted?! Look up "epic" in the dictionary and you'll see a picture of Nathan Drake. Trust me, I got this ;D

#10 Edited by nickzambuto (11423 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, so the scenario has us start at opposite ends of the city, and we have to find each other. Luckily, I have Batman's sonar cowl, so I can find you with ease.

Not that simple. Batman's cowl has never shown any range capabilities, enemies need to be within sight to be detected, and 5 miles is a bit of a stretch.

And with his grapple gun and cape, we can traverse the city effectively, as well.

Nolan Batman can barely glide on his own, you hitch Sherlock up with him and they're not getting off the ground. Unless you're thinking Mr. Holmes is just gonna walk? That's fine with me too, now I can just take you on one at a time B)

Then, using Batman's timed explosive launcher, they can set up a trap. They'll use the explosives to knock down a building between your team members, cutting them off from each other.

Has the explosive launcher shown sufficient power to completely collapse an entire building?

Either way, that's not a realistic strategy. If Leon and Nate see a building coming down on them, they're not going to run in opposite directions to get away; neither needs a genius IQ to just run in the same direction as the other (not saying Leon and Nate aren't two smart dudes, but we'll get into that later)

Common sense states that we're not going to be split up. Realistically, the collapsed building will do nothing more than alert my guys that the enemy is near. Either way though, I'll carry on with your strategy for the sake of debate.

Drake has never fought a stealthy enemy, so he'll have no answer to Batman.

False. Drake is perfectly adept at sneaking and tailing enemies. He may not of gone against other stealth users himself, but he has enough stealth experience himself to make Batman work for that sneak attack.

He's literally breathing down the enemies neck without them realizing it. He can snap a guard's neck two feet away from his buddy without alerting anyone. Drake is completely silent in his approach, giving the enemy nothing to see and nothing to hear. Not saying he'll sneak up on Batman, his sonar vision makes that almost impossible. But against Sherlock? Mr. Homles is a gonner.

With no knowledge, it's a 50-50 chance of whether Nate is paired against Batman or Sherlock. Assuming it's Batman, as you're strategy desires, I believe Nathan can still pull it out. From a gameplay perspective, the entire point of Uncharted is "get thrown into impossible situation, then make it possible"

Nathan has plenty of environment awareness (not getting shot a single time while taking on an entire army solo takes some good instincts) so I don't believe Batman is getting the drop on him. He might be able to close in and bring it hand to hand, but that's not enough to win against Nate, who easily takes down dozens of enemies at a time with just his bare hands. In terms of numbers, Nolan Batman isn't in Drake's league. He's only ever beaten a handful of enemies at a time, and almost always has stealth on his side when doing so. When it comes to H2H, Batman may be a superior martial artist, but sometimes experience and natural ability can take it, which is something Nate has.

The explorer is more than capable of separating himself from Batman, and once he gets a bit of range, that AK is going to work.

Leon will be more difficult, but with smoke bombs and flashbangs employed to distract him and Sherlock's brilliance in knowing where to throw them, they'll be able to distract him long enough for either one of them to engage him in h2h.

Assuming you're implying Batman will provide Sherlock with the smoke bombs and flashbangs, I must ask, has the Dark Knight ever shown to be in possession of such gadgets in the films? Because I don't recall.

Both are formidable at close range, and with their weaponry they can dominate. With the two of them together, Leon will go down hard.

The two won't be together, one of them has to go after Drake. Like I've said, it makes no sense for Leon and Nate to be separated by a collapsed building. Even if we assume they both go derpy for a minute and end up on opposite sides, what's to stop them from just climbing over? I mean come on, platforming is one of Uncharted's core gameplay mechanics; if anything it's what Nate is known for most.

So after fighting off an army, destroying a couple attack choppers, tanking a train crash, and getting shot in the stomach, Nate is still fine enough to do that, then take down a whole platoon of soldiers and trudge miles through the mountains before finally passing out.

Boss.

In any case, we'll assume Sherlock is the one who fights Leon while Bats is duking it out with Drake. Leon has gotten over things a lot worse than some smoke and light. Compared to Sherlock, he has a massive stat advantage, probably just as big a skill advantage, and most definitely a whomping gear advantage. It's a Tommy Gun and RPG going up against a walking stick. Leon can be pretty sneaky too when he needs to be, and I don't think Sherlock can say the same. He's a master of disguise, but that won't do much in this scenario.

To be blunt, Leon beats Sherlock because he has every conceivable advantage possible.

#11 Posted by Esquire (3742 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

Not that simple. Batman's cowl has never shown any range capabilities, enemies need to be within sight to be detected, and 5 miles is a bit of a stretch.

He and Lucius located Joker out of the entire city of Gotham. That not enough range for you?

Nolan Batman can barely glide on his own, you hitch Sherlock up with him and they're not getting off the ground. Unless you're thinking Mr. Holmes is just gonna walk? That's fine with me too, now I can just take you on one at a time

He jumps from the building at 1:22 and blasts through the window at 2:00, and he was still gliding just fine until he tucked his wings to smash through the window. So he can glide for a confirmed 40 seconds, and he looks to be able to go a lot longer. That seems like a lot better than "barely gliding on his own" to me. Even if you add Sherlock's weight, they'll be able to go building to building just fine.

Has the explosive launcher shown sufficient power to completely collapse an entire building?

Upon reexamining the appearances, each explosive is powerful enough to blow straight through a steel I-Pillar. So with enough of them, maybe. But since Bats has never used more than 10 at a time, he probably doesn't have enough to do so. So I'll reevaluate. Bats and Sherlock will use the explosives as a distraction, exploding the enviroment around our characters. Shrapnel should take a chunk out of them, and it'll allow Bats to use flashbangs and batarangs to sow more confusion among your team. He'll then be able to sneak up on them without issue, and Sherlock will be able to use the distraction to close the distance at an opportune moment.

Drake is perfectly adept at sneaking and tailing enemies. He may not of gone against other stealth users himself, but he has enough stealth experience himself to make Batman work for that sneak attack.

He has, however, never fought anyone who tried to sneak up on him. Batman's sonar vision will make any of Drake's attempts at stealth useless, and the only person to ever detect a stealthed Batman was Bane, who had been trained by the same people. Bruce was even able to get the drop on Ra's during the stealth evaluation in Begins. He's disappeared on Gordon and plenty of goons, and in the clip above he's able to disappear even while people are shooting at him and attack from behind.

He's literally breathing down the enemies neck without them realizing it. He can snap a guard's neck two feet away from his buddy without alerting anyone. Drake is completely silent in his approach, giving the enemy nothing to see and nothing to hear. Not saying he'll sneak up on Batman, but against Sherlock? Mr. Homles is a gonner.

Sherlock's main 'power' is how observant he is. He smelled the assassin in the rafters when he was talking to Simza the fortune-teller, and he's able to detect uncanny amounts of detail in his first scene with Mycroft, including the sent of his shaving lotion, and the scene where he first meets Watson's future wife. He is also able to discover men following Irene at the beginning of the second movie, so with his incredible attention to detail, he'll have no problem noticing a man trying to snap his neck.

Nathan has plenty of environment awareness (not getting shot a single time while taking on an entire army solo takes some good instincts) so I don't believe Batman is getting the drop on him.

Enviromental awareness? Is that why half the scenes in all three games begin with enemies bursting into whatever room he occupies and him cursing in surprise and scrambling for cover? The only times he's ready in advance is when the idiot goons shout loud enough for him to hear them. And not only does he get shot in gameplay, he gets shot in cutscenes, too. Remember the train at the start of Uncharted 2? He has a bullethole in his side. Because Flynn shot him.

He might be able to close in and bring it hand to hand, but that's not enough to win against Nate, who easily takes down dozens of enemies at a time with just his bare hands. In terms of numbers, Nolan Batman isn't in Drake's league. He's only ever beaten a handful of enemies at a time, and almost always has stealth on his side when doing so. When it comes to H2H, Batman may be a superior martial artist, but sometimes experience and natural ability can take it, which is something Nate has.

The most enemies Nate has ever fought h2h is the bar scene at the beginning of the third game. He never engages more than three at a time, if I recall, and even in you play it perfectly he still gets beat in an thrown through walls during the cutscenes. Contrast that to Batman's first appearance, when he breaks up the drug shipment at the docks. He beats down around a dozen goons without getting tagged, and that's after stealth-KOing four others. He also dominated 3 League of Shadows ninjas at once at the end of Begins, so he can take it to trained fighters as well.

Also, when it comes to durability, Nate is nothing impressive. If he doesn't have time to heal, he can only take around three punches from a standard goon. If you want cutscene confirmation, late in U2 he and Flynn have to cross a chasm to trigger a bridge, which lets Lazarevich cross. If you try to hit Flynn during that scene, a cutscene triggers where he'll knock you down with one punch. If you try this three times, even with time to heal in between, you get killed. Three punches.

In the clip above, Batman takes down all the enemies in one or two hits. So he has easily the power and skill to take Drake down even faster than Flynn did. Durability is nothing, and the Batsuit gives Bruce a major advantage as far as taking punishment.

The explorer is more than capable of separating himself from Batman, and once he gets a bit of range, that AK is going to work.

How can he separate himself? He has no quantifiable speed feats, and his running speed never seemed particularly impressive to me. Batman has his grapple gun and cape to cover distances quickly, and he moves around the docks extremely quickly, getting from well in front of the frightened henchmen to hanging behind him, in a matter of seconds. How is Drake going to seperate, even assuming he has time to try before Bruce KO's him from the shadows?

Assuming you're implying Batman will provide Sherlock with the smoke bombs and flashbangs, I must ask, has the Dark Knight ever shown to be in possession of such gadgets in the films? Because I don't recall.

Ra's tells him the uses of "explosive powders," and I know he tried to use a flashbang to distract Bane in their first encounter. He also has small explosives like the one he gave to Blake in TDKR. I feel like he used smoke grenades at some point in TDK or Begins, but I can't remember for sure. And he has that Bat-Attraction sonic device for distraction, as well.

We'll assume Sherlock is the one who fights Leon while Bats is duking it out with Drake. Leon has gotten over things a lot worse than some smoke and light. Compared to Sherlock, he has a massive stat advantage, probably just as big a skill advantage, and most definitely a whomping gear advantage. It's a Tommy Gun and RPG going up against a walking stick. Leon can be pretty sneaky too when he needs to be, and I don't think Sherlock can say the same. He's a master of disguise, but that won't do much in this scenario. To be blunt, Leon beats Sherlock because he has every conceivable advantage possible.

But Sherlock has a huge intelligence advantage, and when he's serious I'd argue the skill advantage. He has incredible movereading bordering on precog, even when faced with opponents he's never encountered before. He has impressive knowledge of the body's weakpoints, and he isn't afraid to do lasting damage. He'll have the opportunity to use flashbangs and the like to dictate the location and circumstances of the fight, and with his precog he'll be able to make things happen just the way he wants. I see the fight going something like this:

He shows the skill and willingness to ambush, and he uses the surprise advantage and knowledge of weakpoints to end the fight quickly. He's fought enemies with guns before, and he's skilled in disarming his opponents. When he gets serious, as he'll be here, he can flawlessly demolish an opponent in h2h. A final video: Fight starts at 1:22. It showcases his skill in disarming and the ease with which he can KO opponents, and he defeats someone shooting at him, as well.

And one final point: with the distractions, intelligence, and prediction allowing him to get the drop, he can use the Taser to one-shot Leon. It sent a huge brute of a man flying through a wall, so it can do some pretty decent damage to Kennedy.

#12 Posted by nickzambuto (11423 posts) - - Show Bio
He and Lucius located Joker out of the entire city of Gotham. That not enough range for you?

Lies. They found Joker using the City-Wide phone tap thingy. That's why Lucious resigned. The cowl-vision was only used when Batman got to the building.

He jumps from the building at 1:22 and blasts through the window at 2:00, and he was still gliding just fine until he tucked his wings to smash through the window. So he can glide for a confirmed 40 seconds, and he looks to be able to go a lot longer.

Batman needed to freefall for quite a bit before he gained the necessary velocity to glide correctly. Considering the buildings in OP are all about the same size minus the way back ones, and especially considering Bruce has an extra 200 pounds to heft around, gliding won't get you far.

He has, however, never fought anyone who tried to sneak up on him. Batman's sonar vision will make any of Drake's attempts at stealth useless, and the only person to ever detect a stealthed Batman was Bane, who had been trained by the same people.

Well by that, I can go right back around and say that Batman has never successfully snuck up on someone as good as Nathan Drake. He tried doing it to Bane, look where that got him.

In many ways, the League of Shadows are very similar to the Hermetic Order. And in others, the Order is actually superior. Secret occult organization forged centuries ago by Queen Elizabeth from number of select groups: The School of Night; The Hellfire Club; The British Occult Secret Service and the Order of the Golden Dawn. What with finding Ubar - Iram of the Pillars - and nearly taking over the planet, the Hermetic Order seems a bit more capable than the League.

Look how much that wrap sheet helped them out against Drake.

In terms of numbers, Batman has never taken on anywhere near the amount of enemies Nate did during the bar scene in Uncharted 3.

Over a dozen men all coming at him at once, even getting put through a wall and falling a couple stories is just shrugged off.

Physically speaking, Nate has an overwhelming edge against Nolan Batman. Dodging a hailstorm of bullets from hundreds of shooters during the airport scene, outrunning a collapsing walkway as it's falling apart, throwing grenades back before they can explode, not getting shot a single time while carrying Jeff's half dead body through an army, seeing his enemies punches in almost slow motion; where do you get that he has no speed feats?

Watch the first few minutes, than skip to 6:25. Nate is a confirmed bullet dodger, only taking a bullet when Flinn caught him by surprise, and still having the endurance to survive a train crash, parkour out of the rubble, tank a couple explosions, and then stealth takedown an entire Military Combat Platoon without being spotted, while bleeding out.

Also, when it comes to durability, Nate is nothing impressive. If he doesn't have time to heal, he can only take around three punches from a standard goon. If you want cutscene confirmation, late in U2 he and Flynn have to cross a chasm to trigger a bridge, which lets Lazarevich cross. If you try to hit Flynn during that scene, a cutscene triggers where he'll knock you down with one punch. If you try this three times, even with time to heal in between, you get killed. Three punches.

If you wanna use game mechanics then Drake barely grunts at a point blank shotgun blast. He also has an advanced healing factor. Pretty sure I win.

If you wanna use canon cutscenes on the other hand... Nate still wins. Shrugging away a tank turret blast going off right underfoot, taking no damage from having his head slammed into a urinal by a 7 foot brute, walkling off a 5 story fall after slamming into a wall at 30 MPH, surviving for days in the desert with no food or water and still being fine enough to fight an army...

Speed - Check

Endurance - Check

Strength?

Nate can push a several ton SUV uphill, lift an airport garage door bare handed, and doesn't seem to have much trouble throwing his own body around in the platforming sections. What has Batman ever done?

In hand to hand combat, Nate has proven himself Bruce's better. That said - the treasure hunter doesn't even need to throw a punch. One moment of respite is all he needs, and he'll have a bead painted on Batman's chin before you can say "bang"

8:50

You say Batman will one shot Nate. Against a marksman of Drake's caliber, he'll need to do that if he wants to survive. But considering Nate's stealth feats are superior to Batman's, it'll prove challenging for the Dark Knight to accomplish that.

#13 Posted by nickzambuto (11423 posts) - - Show Bio
But Sherlock has a huge intelligence advantage, and when he's serious I'd argue the skill advantage. He has incredible movereading bordering on precog, even when faced with opponents he's never encountered before. I see the fight going something like this:

As impressive as beating up a fat drunk is, Sherlock's tactical ability has it's limits.

He's rarely if ever been shown fighting opponents who posses skill themselves. When faced with more than one opponent, he needed a moment to think up a plan. Three goons is all it took to pretty much beat the crap out of Sherlock, as was happening, and would of continued happening had the cops not distracted them. Logically, it goes both ways against a skilled opponent.

So we have Sherlock, who struggles with three goons. Then there's Leon, who kills four or five superpowered Ganadoes bare handed, while handcuffed.

In terms of stats, Leon has a massive edge. His reaction time is bordering on superhuman, his agility is almost a running gag, and he's close to Chris's equal in strength.

Just being comparable to Chris is one of the best strength feats a guy can have.

Notice as Chris tries to grab his pistol, Leon literally grabs his wrist and just shoves it back in the holster.

He stopped Chris's strike dead in it's tracks, and even broke the soldier's hold. As a Resident Evil fan, I personally don't want to say Leon is stronger than Chris. But as a debater, he has his own feats that make him damn close.

With no time to react, Leon can analyze the laser's paths, and predict the perfect way to maneuver his body, so as to just barely avoid contact. Then, he can execute that plan in real life, with perfect accuracy. He basically did the same thing Sherlock does when he plans out his fights.

Boss reflexes.

Read the above post first.

#14 Posted by Esquire (3742 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Lol, just found this again and realized you're trying to pass Leon Kennedy off as a "below street leveler." Riiiiiiight.

#15 Posted by nickzambuto (11423 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@nickzambuto: Lol, just found this again and realized you're trying to pass Leon Kennedy off as a "below street leveler." Riiiiiiight.

To be fair, I signed up with him before watching Damnation and playing RE6. At that point, he really was below street level.