I guess... but Mephisto has never been greater than Lucifer... neither has Death... or at least some Text would have you to believe that
lmao "
The problem is the Lucifer can only be directly compared to DC's embodiment of Death, and he is above it. However, Marvel's personification of Death (IMO) is far above DC version.
I guess... but Mephisto has never been greater than Lucifer... neither has Death... or at least some Text would have you to believe that
lmao "
The problem is the Lucifer can only be directly compared to DC's embodiment of Death, and he is above it. However, Marvel's personification of Death (IMO) is far above DC version. "
how do you figure Death in the MU is greater than Lucifer Morningstar ? If anything I would say they were equal at best... and even that could be a stretch
I guess... but Mephisto has never been greater than Lucifer... neither has Death... or at least some Text would have you to believe that
lmao "
The problem is the Lucifer can only be directly compared to DC's embodiment of Death, and he is above it. However, Marvel's personification of Death (IMO) is far above DC version. "
how do you figure Death in the MU is greater than Lucifer Morningstar ? If anything I would say they were equal at best... and even that could be a stretch "
I would put Lucifer higher than even DU Death, let alone MU. But when was Beelzebub an aspect of the Morningstar?
I guess... but Mephisto has never been greater than Lucifer... neither has Death... or at least some Text would have you to believe that
lmao "
The problem is the Lucifer can only be directly compared to DC's embodiment of Death, and he is above it. However, Marvel's personification of Death (IMO) is far above DC version. "
how do you figure Death in the MU is greater than Lucifer Morningstar ? If anything I would say they were equal at best... and even that could be a stretch "
I would put Lucifer higher than even DU Death, let alone MU. But when was Beelzebub an aspect of the Morningstar? "
Beelzebub always has been an aspect of Lucifer... he may not be totally as powerful as Lucifer... but he is still an aspect of him... even if he does look like a Giant Fly
@King Saturn:He was part of Lucifer's triumvirate (along with Azazel). Never seen anything to indicate he is an aspect of him (unless that was stated in Carey's Lucifer series, which I haven't read yet). And the triumvirate was just a distracton from Lucifer's behalf, to have other demons fight with each other, instead of conspire against him.
" @King Saturn:He was part of Lucifer's triumvirate (along with Azazel). Never seen anything to indicate he is an aspect of him (unless that was stated in Carey's Lucifer series, which I haven't read yet). And the triumvirate was just a distracton from Lucifer's behalf, to have other demons fight with each other, instead of conspire against him. "
well I was using multiple other texts to come to the conclusion of Beelzebub being an aspect of Lucifer not just comics...
" @King Saturn:He was part of Lucifer's triumvirate (along with Azazel). Never seen anything to indicate he is an aspect of him (unless that was stated in Carey's Lucifer series, which I haven't read yet). And the triumvirate was just a distracton from Lucifer's behalf, to have other demons fight with each other, instead of conspire against him. "
well I was using multiple other texts to come to the conclusion of Beelzebub being an aspect of Lucifer not just comics... "
Ah, because in the comics, Lucifer is as independent as it gets; no other demon even comes close to rival his power. And the pic in the OP was from Sandman# 4.So, I assumed it was that Beelzebub. Generally speaking, Beelzebub is even a synonym for the Devil.
" @King Saturn:He was part of Lucifer's triumvirate (along with Azazel). Never seen anything to indicate he is an aspect of him (unless that was stated in Carey's Lucifer series, which I haven't read yet). And the triumvirate was just a distracton from Lucifer's behalf, to have other demons fight with each other, instead of conspire against him. "
well I was using multiple other texts to come to the conclusion of Beelzebub being an aspect of Lucifer not just comics... "
Ah, because in the comics, Lucifer is as independent as it gets; no other demon even comes close to rival his power. And the pic in the OP was from Sandman# 4.So, I assumed it was that Beelzebub. Generally speaking, Beelzebub is even a synonym for the Devil. "
You are Correct... but Lucifer Morningstar technically is still Satan... well in a sense he is
" @King Saturn:Wasn't the First of the Fallen, the Devil in the DCU? "
Thats Correct... but who do you think the First of the Fallen is ? Its Lucifer Morningstar... lol
The very concept of the name First of the Fallen explains it all... Lucifer was the First to Fall from Heaven... then 3 million or so Angels and Cheribums fell with him
" @King Saturn:Wasn't the First of the Fallen, the Devil in the DCU? "
Thats Correct... but who do you think the First of the Fallen is ? Its Lucifer Morningstar... lol
The very concept of the name First of the Fallen explains it all... Lucifer was the First to Fall from Heaven... then 3 million or so Angels and Cheribums fell with him
lol "
When Lucifer fell, TFOTF was waiting for him in Hell...Let me get the scan.
" @King Saturn:Wasn't the First of the Fallen, the Devil in the DCU? "
Thats Correct... but who do you think the First of the Fallen is ? Its Lucifer Morningstar... lol
The very concept of the name First of the Fallen explains it all... Lucifer was the First to Fall from Heaven... then 3 million or so Angels and Cheribums fell with him
lol "
When Lucifer fell, TFOTF was waiting for him in Hell...Let me get the scan. "
what comic is this from ? And this concept here brings a lot of questions to the table... if The First of the Fallen and Lucifer are different entities... how can one be greater than the other when technically they both served the same purpose to God the Father when they resided with him in Heaven ?
@King Saturn:It's Hellblazer # 59. And I doubt if TFOTF is anywhere near Lucifer's league...Had he been, he wouldn't wait for Lucifer to quit, to seize power... Besides, he was an idiot. He was killed by the scheming of bloody Constantine and the pretty demoness you see in the scan, for God's sake...For all we know, Lucifer cannot die...And even though I can't recall where TFOTF says it exactly, but he admits that, " the angel " (as he sarcastically calls Lucifer), was far stronger than him.
" @King Saturn:It's Hellblazer # 59. And I doubt if TFOTF is anywhere near Lucifer's league...Had he been, he wouldn't wait for Lucifer to quit, to seize power... Besides, he was an idiot. He was killed by the scheming of bloody Constantine and the pretty demoness you see in the scan, for God's sake...For all we know, Lucifer cannot die...And even though I can't recall where TFOTF says it exactly, but he admits that, " the angel " (as he sarcastically calls Lucifer), was far stronger than him. "
hmmm... I guess I can deal with this... but it sort of doesnt make any sense... unless TFOTF wasnt actually an archangel when he was in Heaven but how could that be... but maybe thats more of my bibical knowledge talking other than the comics
" @King Saturn:It's Hellblazer # 59. And I doubt if TFOTF is anywhere near Lucifer's league...Had he been, he wouldn't wait for Lucifer to quit, to seize power... Besides, he was an idiot. He was killed by the scheming of bloody Constantine and the pretty demoness you see in the scan, for God's sake...For all we know, Lucifer cannot die...And even though I can't recall where TFOTF says it exactly, but he admits that, " the angel " (as he sarcastically calls Lucifer), was far stronger than him. "
hmmm... I guess I can deal with this... but it sort of doesnt make any sense... unless TFOTF wasnt actually an archangel when he was in Heaven but how could that be... but maybe thats more of my bibical knowledge talking other than the comics "
Well, technically, the only reason TFOTF was created, was because Garth Ennis didn't want to use Lucifer, who had already quit from Hell - it was bound to cause confusion. And TFOTF was never an angel. He existed as God's "conscience", a voice to tell God how wonderful the things he created were (that's how TFOTF puts it). When he objected to something God did, He simply banished him from Heaven (or the Silver City, or whatever it's called).
" @King Saturn:It's Hellblazer # 59. And I doubt if TFOTF is anywhere near Lucifer's league...Had he been, he wouldn't wait for Lucifer to quit, to seize power... Besides, he was an idiot. He was killed by the scheming of bloody Constantine and the pretty demoness you see in the scan, for God's sake...For all we know, Lucifer cannot die...And even though I can't recall where TFOTF says it exactly, but he admits that, " the angel " (as he sarcastically calls Lucifer), was far stronger than him. "
hmmm... I guess I can deal with this... but it sort of doesnt make any sense... unless TFOTF wasnt actually an archangel when he was in Heaven but how could that be... but maybe thats more of my bibical knowledge talking other than the comics "
Well, technically, the only reason TFOTF was created, was because Garth Ennis didn't want to use Lucifer, who had already quit from Hell - it was bound to cause confusion. And TFOTF was never an angel. He existed as God's "conscience", a voice to tell God how wonderful the things he created were (that's how TFOTF puts it). When he objected to something God did, He simply banished him from Heaven (or the Silver City, or whatever it's called). "
well thats interesting...
but what does this mean for Beelzebub ? Since he is considered the King of Hell ?
@King Saturn:Well, that means Beelzebub (in the comics at least) is far less than both. Considering that Azazel (the third of the Triumvirate) was easily incapacitated by Morpheus (to be fair though, the fight was in the Dreaming - Morpheus is invincible there -I still think he could take him though), and that Beelzebub should be around the same level, I would assume Thanos has a good shot. Hell, even John Constantine has managed to outsmart the ruler of Hell and his brothers...And no matter how much I like John, he is no Thanos...
" @King Saturn:Well, that means Beelzebub (in the comics at least) is far less than both. Considering that Azazel (the third of the Triumvirate) was easily incapacitated by Morpheus (to be fair though, the fight was in the Dreaming - Morpheus is invincible there -I still think he could take him though), and that Beelzebub should be around the same level, I would assume Thanos has a good shot. Hell, even John Constantine has managed to outsmart the ruler of Hell and his brothers...And no matter how much I like John, he is no Thanos... "
why does Beelzebub have to be on par with Azazal ? Why cant he be greater ? And technically... The Spectre himself is lower than Lucifer in power... and he would not be able to beat Morpheus in his Dream Dimension either... and The Spectre has also been outsmarted by human on occasions ( well Batman at least )... so if these demons could have only half of The Spectre's power... Thanos is in trouble... no matter how stupid they seem
" @King Saturn:Well, that means Beelzebub (in the comics at least) is far less than both. Considering that Azazel (the third of the Triumvirate) was easily incapacitated by Morpheus (to be fair though, the fight was in the Dreaming - Morpheus is invincible there -I still think he could take him though), and that Beelzebub should be around the same level, I would assume Thanos has a good shot. Hell, even John Constantine has managed to outsmart the ruler of Hell and his brothers...And no matter how much I like John, he is no Thanos... "
why does Beelzebub have to be on par with Azazal ? Why cant he be greater ? And technically... The Spectre himself is lower than Lucifer in power... and he would not be able to beat Morpheus in his Dream Dimension either... and The Spectre has also been outsmarted by human on occasions ( well Batman at least )... so if these demons could have only half of The Spectre's power... Thanos is in trouble... no matter how stupid they seem "
why does Beelzebub have to be on par with Azazal ? Why cant he be greater ? - It was an assumption – if Beelzebub, or Azazel were not close in power, they wouldn’t have been chosen to be “equal” rulers of Hell. As to which one of the two is stronger, there really isn’t any objective measure to judge. And technically... The Spectre himself is lower than Lucifer in power - Correct.
and he would not be able to beat Morpheus in his Dream Dimension either.- against a severley weakended Dream, Dr Destiny was literally having a party in the Dreaming...I believe Spectre would put up quite a fight, before losing to the pale Robert Smith look alike... and The Spectre has also been outsmarted by human on occasions ( well Batman at least ) - I seem to have missed that... But I recently saw a ridiculous picture of Batman kicking the Spectre...
so if these demons could have only half of The Spectre's power - Doubtful. When the Spectre went to Hell (bounded to Jim Corrigan at the time), everyone was like “oh, s**t, let’s get out of here”.
As I said before - I am not sure. But I believe he has a shot.
" @King Saturn:Well, that means Beelzebub (in the comics at least) is far less than both. Considering that Azazel (the third of the Triumvirate) was easily incapacitated by Morpheus (to be fair though, the fight was in the Dreaming - Morpheus is invincible there -I still think he could take him though), and that Beelzebub should be around the same level, I would assume Thanos has a good shot. Hell, even John Constantine has managed to outsmart the ruler of Hell and his brothers...And no matter how much I like John, he is no Thanos... "
why does Beelzebub have to be on par with Azazal ? Why cant he be greater ? And technically... The Spectre himself is lower than Lucifer in power... and he would not be able to beat Morpheus in his Dream Dimension either... and The Spectre has also been outsmarted by human on occasions ( well Batman at least )... so if these demons could have only half of The Spectre's power... Thanos is in trouble... no matter how stupid they seem "
why does Beelzebub have to be on par with Azazal ? Why cant he be greater ? - It was an assumption – if Beelzebub, or Azazel were not close in power, they wouldn’t have been chosen to be “equal” rulers of Hell. As to which one of the two is stronger, there really isn’t any objective measure to judge. And technically... The Spectre himself is lower than Lucifer in power - Correct.
and he would not be able to beat Morpheus in his Dream Dimension either.- against a severley weakended Dream, Dr Destiny was literally having a party in the Dreaming...I believe Spectre would put up quite a fight, before losing to the pale Robert Smith look alike... and The Spectre has also been outsmarted by human on occasions ( well Batman at least ) - I seem to have missed that... But I recently saw a ridiculous picture of Batman kicking the Spectre...
so if these demons could have only half of The Spectre's power - Doubtful. When the Spectre went to Hell (bounded to Jim Corrigan at the time), everyone was like “oh, s**t, let’s get out of here”.
As I said before - I am not sure. But I believe he has a shot. "
so if these demons could have only half of The Spectre's power - Doubtful. When the Spectre went to Hell (bounded to Jim Corrigan at the time), everyone was like “oh, s**t, let’s get out of here”.
But how does this make any sense ? The Top Tier Demons of Hell essentially were at some point Angels or possibly Archangels before they fell... The Spectre's power originated from the Archangel Aztar... now unless these Demons feared that The Presence was heavily upon The Spectre with his power... technically... the Top Tier Demons should not fear The Spectre... or at least one that is Not Unbound
@King Saturn:Perhaps the Spectre's power was augmented specifically for his vengeful mission...But Beelzebub was never an Angel...Azazel probably was (it's still open to debate), but I'm no saying if I agree, or not, on that part...I just stated what happened when he went down there...
" @King Saturn:Perhaps the Spectre's power was augmented specifically for his vengeful mission...But Beelzebub was never an Angel...Azazel probably was (it's still open to debate), but I'm no saying if I agree, or not, on that part...I just stated what happened when he went down there...
"
in this scan... it seems that these are all Low Tier Demons who are running for their Lives... I dont see a Big Bug guy in the Pack... lol
and actually Beelzebub was an angel... according to some texts... he was on the order of a Cherubim.
in this scan... it seems that these are all Low Tier Demons who are running for their Lives... I dont see a Big Bug guy in the Pack... lol - Azmodus (enhanced with thousands human souls) good enough for you? That's why everyone's running...
and actually Beelzebub was an angel... according to some texts... he was on the order of a Cherubim.
Cherubim's are Angels... - I didn’t know that…I doubt that in the DCU he was an Angel though…And yes, I’ve heard about Cherubs before…hehe.
in this scan... it seems that these are all Low Tier Demons who are running for their Lives... I dont see a Big Bug guy in the Pack... lol - Azmodus (enhanced with thousands human souls) good enough for you? That's why everyone's running...
and actually Beelzebub was an angel... according to some texts... he was on the order of a Cherubim.
Cherubim's are Angels... - I didn’t know that…I doubt that in the DCU he was an Angel though…And yes, I’ve heard about Cherubs before…hehe. "
but was Azmodus a King of Hell ? Is he on par with the High Tier Demons ? I dont know...
and as far as what Beelzebub was the DCU... well I honestly dont know... this whole thread has been a learning experience... I thought the Biblical aspects were much stronger in the Vertigo Line than what has been shown here... oh well I guess
@King Saturn:The Spectre has stated that the first time they faced each other, it was a stalemate...But generally Azmodus needs human souls to even come close to rivaling Aztar...In the scan, he was in his prime, and in Hell and still lost. And actually, Azmodus was created after a mission from Lucifer Morningstar himself. Lucifer had gathered a demonic council to order his fellow demons to destroy the Spectre (he actually didn't care - he knew they would fail - he just didn't want them to conspire against him). One of them tried to corrupt it, instead...So, the human soul bonded to Aztar at the time fell indeed , and was then bonded with the demon herself...Thus, was Azmodus born. She wasn't a top tier demon but she wasn't powerless either...And as far as DC/Vertigo goes, Azazel was surely an Angel - he was seen as such in Gaiman's Murder Mysteries...Since Gaiman started all these with Lucifer, he should know better. Unfortunately, there isn't any reference to Beelzebub in that comic, just to make sure.
" @King Saturn:The Spectre has stated that the first time they faced each other, it was a stalemate...But generally Azmodus needs human souls to even come close to rivaling Aztar...In the scan, he was in his prime, and in Hell and still lost. And actually, Azmodus was created after a mission from Lucifer Morningstar himself. Lucifer had gathered a demonic council to order his fellow demons to destroy the Spectre (he actually didn't care - he knew they would fail - he just didn't want them to conspire against him). One of them tried to corrupt it, instead...So, the human soul bonded to Aztar at the time fell indeed , and was then bonded with the demon herself...Thus, was Azmodus born. She wasn't a top tier demon but she wasn't powerless either...And as far as DC/Vertigo goes, Azazel was surely an Angel - he was seen as such in Gaiman's Murder Mysteries...Since Gaiman started all these with Lucifer, he should know better. Unfortunately, there isn't any reference to Beelzebub in that comic, just to make sure. "
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