#1 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

Just know: I am not doing this battle biasly. I believe it's possible for Phoenix to win, however I have seen nothing that says she can. After debate after debate and feat after feat, I thought this would be a good battle.

Dark Phoenix

No prep.

Morals off, bloodlust on.

Battle takes place on Bedlam Pulsar

Battle ends in existence wipe

Who wins?

#2 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 need feats.

Phoenix wins.

#3 Posted by VeganDiet (1066 posts) - - Show Bio

Feats for team 1?

#4 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

I have a few feats, I am collecting them.

#5 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

#6 Posted by Roddy010 (5246 posts) - - Show Bio

From what I've researched. Phoenix should take this freely.

#7 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

I would like your input.

#8 Posted by HBKTimHBK (5242 posts) - - Show Bio

*researches*

Dark Phoenix wins..

#9 Posted by MorganFreeman (446 posts) - - Show Bio

Someone mentioned the Bedlam Spirits being omnipotent not too long ago. Doesn't that really give the team the victory on paper? I know Dark Phoenix is nothing to be scoffed at but omnipotence is omnipotence. Unless this is what I like to call Odin Omnipotence, which is where Thor calls Odin omnipotent when he isn't actually omnipotent and is just exceptionally powerful.

#10 Edited by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

@MorganFreeman said:

Someone mentioned the Bedlam Spirits being omnipotent not too long ago. Doesn't that really give the team the victory on paper? I know Dark Phoenix is nothing to be scoffed at but omnipotence is omnipotence. Unless this is what I like to call Odin Omnipotence, which is where Thor calls Odin omnipotent when he isn't actually omnipotent and is just exceptionally powerful.

I would like insight from a few more people who are knowledgeable about the Bedlam Spirits instead of people who looked at Wikias to determine Bedlam spirits lose.

#11 Posted by MorganFreeman (446 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn said:

@MorganFreeman said:

Someone mentioned the Bedlam Spirits being omnipotent not too long ago. Doesn't that really give the team the victory on paper? I know Dark Phoenix is nothing to be scoffed at but omnipotence is omnipotence. Unless this is what I like to call Odin Omnipotence, which is where Thor calls Odin omnipotent when he isn't actually omnipotent and is just exceptionally powerful.

I would like insight from a few more people who are knowledgeable about the Bedlam Spirits instead of people who looked at Wikias to determine Bedlam spirits lose.

The person I'm referencing is ShootingNova, who in my one month of viewing the Battles section came off as a man who did more than glance at a wiki page for an opinion. Care to weigh in?

#12 Posted by JediXMan (30584 posts) - - Show Bio

@MorganFreeman said:

Someone mentioned the Bedlam Spirits being omnipotent not too long ago. Doesn't that really give the team the victory on paper? I know Dark Phoenix is nothing to be scoffed at but omnipotence is omnipotence. Unless this is what I like to call Odin Omnipotence, which is where Thor calls Odin omnipotent when he isn't actually omnipotent and is just exceptionally powerful.

The caption in the comic called them omnipotent (note: the caption is the narration, not an in-universe perspective, if memory serves). That said, they could well be omnipotent. But they are childlike and lack the control necessary. Dark Phoenix will take the battle seriously; Bedlam Spirits will treat it like a game. So due to that, I say Phoenix. That and the Bedlam Spirits never did anything to prove their omnipotence.

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#13 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

@MorganFreeman said:

Someone mentioned the Bedlam Spirits being omnipotent not too long ago. Doesn't that really give the team the victory on paper? I know Dark Phoenix is nothing to be scoffed at but omnipotence is omnipotence. Unless this is what I like to call Odin Omnipotence, which is where Thor calls Odin omnipotent when he isn't actually omnipotent and is just exceptionally powerful.

The caption in the comic called them omnipotent (note: the caption is the narration, not an in-universe perspective, if memory serves). That said, they could well be omnipo

tent. But they are childlike and lack the control necessary. Dark Phoenix will take the battle seriously; Bedlam Spirits will treat it like a game. So due to that, I say Phoenix. That and the Bedlam Spirits never did anything to prove their omnipotence.

#14 Posted by JediXMan (30584 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn:

I stand by my statement.

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#15 Posted by MorganFreeman (446 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: That covers the Bedlam Spirits vs Dark Phoenix but how do you think The Ones will factor into things? As cruel as this might sound, I remember an episode of that Clone Wars cartoon they appeared in but I remember very little of it as that series was... not great, in my opinion. They were powerful, that much I can recall. Not sure how they rank overall among Force users like, say, post EU Luke or Sidious though.

#16 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

I would like a few more users to comment before I say Phoenix wins for sure.

#17 Posted by JediXMan (30584 posts) - - Show Bio

@MorganFreeman:

I have no idea. I've avoided TCW and anything affiliated like the plague. I myself have not seen the episode with the Ones yet. I might soon, but I don't know. I said I'd watch the series if the Palpatine vs Maul and Opress duel is done well, and it appears (based on the book) that it was / will be. I'll probably skip most of the series and just watch the "good" episodes, that included.

But as things stand, I know absolutely nothing about the Ones.

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#18 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

@MorganFreeman:

I have no idea. I've avoided TCW and anything affiliated like the plague. I myself have not seen the episode with the Ones yet. I might soon, but I don't know. I said I'd watch the series if the Palpatine vs Maul and Opress duel is done well, and it appears (based on the book) that it was / will be. I'll probably skip most of the series and just watch the "good" episodes, that included.

But as things stand, I know absolutely nothing about the Ones.

The next few episodes Sidious is shown dueling Opress and Savage.

2:37

#19 Posted by MorganFreeman (446 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: Do you think Silver watches the show? Maybe he can give a good idea of what The Ones can do.

#20 Posted by JediXMan (30584 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn:

I know it happens in season 5, but I don't remember which specific episode it is.

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#21 Posted by JediXMan (30584 posts) - - Show Bio

@MorganFreeman said:

@JediXMan: Do you think Silver watches the show? Maybe he can give a good idea of what The Ones can do.

He does. We've discussed it and its themes a few times.

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#22 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

@MorganFreeman: Well, omnipotence is omnipotence. Bedlam Spirits curbstomp.

The Ones themselves....... they're power levels aren't exactly determined precisely, but it appears only the Dagger of Mortis could kill any of the Ones (or weaken them to be affected by outside weaponry).

#23 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@MorganFreeman: Well, omnipotence is omnipotence. Bedlam Spirits curbstomp.

The Ones themselves....... they're power levels aren't exactly determined precisely, but it appears only the Dagger of Mortis could kill any of the Ones (or weaken them to be affected by outside weaponry).

What would the Bedlam spirits do to basically "curbstomp" her?

#24 Posted by JediXMan (30584 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@MorganFreeman: Well, omnipotence is omnipotence. Bedlam Spirits curbstomp.

The Ones themselves....... they're power levels aren't exactly determined precisely, but it appears only the Dagger of Mortis could kill any of the Ones (or weaken them to be affected by outside weaponry).

The Bedlam Spirits are "supposedly" omnipotent. As things stand, they haven't done much to earn that title. And they also lack the maturity and do not fully understand their own power.

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#25 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: An omnipotent being generally doesn't show much to stand to the title. Well, I guess since TOAA hasn't really done anything "omnipotent" (which would be impossible) he isn't?

As for the maturity point, its morals off for this fight.

#26 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn: We're going to have to discuss whether or not we would class them as omnipotent first. If yes, the answer is obvious.

#27 Posted by JediXMan (30584 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@JediXMan: An omnipotent being generally doesn't show much to stand to the title. Well, I guess since TOAA hasn't really done anything "omnipotent" (which would be impossible) he isn't?

As for the maturity point, its morals off for this fight.

That's a different scenario. We know what TOAA's place in the universe is. That and we have the word of many characters to establish it. The Bedlam Spirits only have one appearance, and the word "omnipotent" is used by the narrator - Alan Moore, who does tend to dramatize things.

Still, the only thing the Bedlam Spirits did was casually kill / revive Stormtroopers and accidentally send them through time. The accidentally part kinda makes me doubt their omnipotence - perhaps it's pure "omnipotence" without omniscience? But that still seems weird. If one is omnipotent, then they should be omniscient - doesn't go the other way. But again, that goes back to the maturity thing.

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#28 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: But we have nothing to prove it isn't omnipotence, just conjecture.

Again, the maturity matter is already solved - morals off.

#29 Posted by JediXMan (30584 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@JediXMan: But we have nothing to prove it isn't omnipotence, just conjecture.

Again, the maturity matter is already solved - morals off.

We have no proof that they are omnipotent, either. Comments by other characters - especially narrators - are always called into question. Note: this applies more to comics than novels.

I know. That was my reasoning as to why, if they were omnipotent, why they don't have omniscience.

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#30 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: I thought you were talking about "pure omnipotence". Well, omnipotence itself doesn't naturally come with omniscience, it's just many of the beings we know to be omnipotent are omniscient also.

#31 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

If I may ask, is this a caption or isn't this in a sourcebook?

#32 Edited by JediXMan (30584 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@JediXMan: I thought you were talking about "pure omnipotence". Well, omnipotence itself doesn't naturally come with omniscience, it's just many of the beings we know to be omnipotent are omniscient also.

If somebody is truly omnipotent - all powerful - then they are capable of granting themselves omniscience and omnipresence. That's why I mentioned maturity: the Bedlam Spirits lack the maturity and intelligence that would make them realize they could do that. Assuming they are omnipotent, they don't know the full extent of their power.

Neither here nor their, I still don't see how they're omnipotent. I'd need more proof than just a claim at power to say that they are for certain.

PS: Ugh. Why am I not getting notifications when you reply to me?

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#33 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (17277 posts) - - Show Bio

Aren't the Spirits supposed to be omnipotent? Isn't it like putting Dp against Toaa? (which I'm pretty sure she loses)

Online
#34 Posted by MorganFreeman (446 posts) - - Show Bio

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

Aren't the Spirits supposed to be omnipotent? Isn't it like putting Dp against Toaa? (which I'm pretty sure she loses)

The difference is The One Above All has omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence where the Bedlam Spirits apparently only have omnipotence. Power without knowledge to utilize said power most efficiently, which makes JediX believe Dark Phoenix can beat them. Beyonder before his retcon was omnipotent but certainly not omniscient, to use a Marvel example.

And yes, Dark Phoenix loses to The One Above All. She's good but not that good.

#35 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

Im shocked your not on here defending Phoenix.

#36 Posted by Mythologico4 (288 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn: I'm pretty sure you aren't, you just wanted to put me in another thread, but I'm too lazy right now, sorry...

#37 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: The maturity thing isn't relevant anymore because morals are off...... LOL.

As for the no PM, I think it's because I can't post freely anymore, and now I just have to continuously copy, refresh, paste, rinse and repeat.

#38 Posted by HulkSlayerT1000 (1066 posts) - - Show Bio

Dark Phoenix.

#39 Posted by JediXMan (30584 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@JediXMan: The maturity thing isn't relevant anymore because morals are off...... LOL.

As for the no PM, I think it's because I can't post freely anymore, and now I just have to continuously copy, refresh, paste, rinse and repeat.

I wasn't talking about... never mind. I was talking about in general, not this battle.

Ah.

Still, I see no actual proof that they're omnipotent other than one vague reference. They don't have the feats to back it up.

Moderator
#40 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (17277 posts) - - Show Bio

@MorganFreeman said:

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

Aren't the Spirits supposed to be omnipotent? Isn't it like putting Dp against Toaa? (which I'm pretty sure she loses)

The difference is The One Above All has omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence where the Bedlam Spirits apparently only have omnipotence. Power without knowledge to utilize said power most efficiently, which makes JediX believe Dark Phoenix can beat them. Beyonder before his retcon was omnipotent but certainly not omniscient, to use a Marvel example.

And yes, Dark Phoenix loses to The One Above All. She's good but not that good.

But still, I don't think even Dp could take down an omnipotent.. The word is just... you know what I mean...

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#41 Posted by Mythologico4 (288 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova: @PrinceAragorn1:

The thing is that, just like @JediXMan: said, all we have here about them is vague reference about their "omnipotence"... In fact, we don't even know if this is true omnipotence since they seem to have no feats....

You can get several beeing that are called "omnipotent" like Celestials, Living Tribunal, Watchers..... In the end of the day, if you put them agaisn't a true omnipotent beeing like TOAA, they stand no chance at all....

If you take Living Tribunal, who is know for his supposed omnipotence and put him to battle Pre-Retcon Molecule Man... A majority of people agrees that MM wins....

What I'm trying to say is, among with a piece of text with the only evidence, we don't even know if they have true omnipotence, or if they are just called "omnipotent", but would be beaten by many no-omnipotent beeings...

#42 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (17277 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mythologico4: Hmm. Ok.

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#43 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mythologico4: Except we know the Living Tribunal is not omnipotent. We can't exactly say the same for the Bedlam Spirits. In any case, we should refrain from using them in fights due to their lack of known power.

#44 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@Mythologico4: Except we know the Living Tribunal is not omnipotent. We can't exactly say the same for the Bedlam Spirits. In any case, we should refrain from using them in fights due to their lack of known power.

It would be nice if a few more comics were made on them.

#45 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn: They were made a long time ago, and they don't blend in well with modern EU. And personally, I find them a bit..... dull. A bit unique but also a bit dull.

#46 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@MasterJohn: They were made a long time ago, and they don't blend in well with modern EU. And personally, I find them a bit..... dull. A bit unique but also a bit dull.

This means we'll never know the Bedlam's Spirits true potential? Well Disney is just great.

#47 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn: It depends. If modern EU is going to be respected by Disney, they won't be doing much to the Bedlam Spirits because those concepts as a whole are quite poor for today's version of EU. Remember that the Spirits were made a long time ago.

#48 Edited by darklordofthesith1 (34 posts) - - Show Bio

@masterjohn: any one alone of the team wins because the bedlam spirits are omnipotent and the ones can only be destroyed by a special dagger called the dagger of mortis nothing else can even damage them phoenix is no match