#1 Posted by Owie (3616 posts) - - Show Bio

Beat my team of 7 female all-star hand-to-hand fighters.

--Your team must be all male, and have 7 members at most.

--They cannot have any physical stats above peak human (you may select characters who are normally above peak human and just limit them to that level).

--They may not have offensive powers.

--They may have non-offensive powers (for example, radar sense, photographic reflexes, etc.), except no healing factors or spite-style powers like time-travel. Telepathy may only be used to read minds, nothing else.

--Only standard weapons, such as swords, staffs, nunchucks, shields, etc., are allowed. No ranged weapons. No other special equipment (utility belts, Wolverine's claws, Cap's shield, etc.).

--No Karate Kid.

Morals off, not bloodlusted. Battle takes place on a field hockey field, starting at 20'. Win by KO, death, or incapacitation. No prep.

My team: Cass Cain (two katanas), Lady Shiva (pre-52, kusari-gama), Finesse (two katanas), Gamora (limited to peak human, two katanas), Mantis (no powers, two katanas), Red Sonja (limited to peak human, longsword and shield), Wonder Woman (pre-52 despite the picture, limited to peak human, longsword and shield, does not have lasso, bracelets etc.).

Cass Cain
Lady Shiva
Finesse
Gamora
Mantis
Red Sonja
Wonder Woman

#2 Posted by sandiego008 (3283 posts) - - Show Bio

Man you are calling me on my own ground of women character teams, yet you took my bread and butters. I'll challenge your all women team w/ my all women team.

Zealot

Nemesis

Domino

Ravenger

Big Barda

echo

Agent Helix

Just re-read and saw it was male only for us. Soooo here is my male list.

Puck (his shortness may provide problems)

Spiderman (after kung fu training and spider senses are back)

Guts

Snake Eyes

Iron fist ( I hate I'm using him)

Ian nottingham

Midnighter

(okay midnighter is cheap ... if not him then why not throw in the champion for good measure)

#3 Posted by Owie (3616 posts) - - Show Bio

Man you are calling me on my own ground of women character teams, yet you took my bread and butters. I'll challenge your all women team w/ my all women team.

Zealot

Nemesis

Domino

Ravenger

Big Barda

echo

Agent Helix

Just re-read and saw it was male only for us. Soooo here is my male list.

Puck (his shortness may provide problems)

Spiderman (after kung fu training and spider senses are back)

Guts

Snake Eyes

Iron fist ( I hate I'm using him)

Ian nottingham

Midnighter

(okay midnighter is cheap ... if not him then why not throw in the champion for good measure)

Ah, I actually hadn't noticed you'd been making female-themed threads recently!

Remember, all characters are limited to peak human abilities at max, and no special weapons.

Your women's team is pretty solid. I guess I'll accept Domino's luck powers. I'd never heard of Agent Helix before, pretty cool character.

I think Wonder Woman would beat Big Barda. Finesse might edge Echo, but let's call that a draw. If we put Agent Helix against Cass Cain, that would be a good match. Hard for me to call since I haven't actually seen her in action, but I would think in a way that Cass might have the advantage, in that Helix's ability (as far as I understand it) is more about understanding the battlefield situation, while Cass' is reading and predicting the opponent's actions. Cass also has more experience against superhumans and top-level humans than Helix would get. Red Sonja against Ravager, that's a good battle and could potentially go either way; I'd guess Sonja's a better fighter but Rose has her precog. Zealot against Lady Shiva, again I don't read Wildstorm, but her reputation is certainly extremely high and I could buy a win from Zealot or stalemate. Nemesis against Gamora, I think I'll take Gamora, just because my impression is that Nemesis is not quite at Zealot's level, again I could be wrong. Gamora also has tons of feats of taking out ridiculously-strong characters with nerve strikes. Domino vs Mantis, I think Mantis is the far superior fighter, and has beaten all kinds of superpowered opponents, including teams, or characters like Karnak with his special powers. Domino's luck could give her the edge, but I think she has lost to characters like Deadpool (?) and if so, Mantis would take her out too.

So while it's hard for me to say for sure, I think maybe I take a slight majority of the matchups, or we stalemate.

When it comes to the men, I think your team has a harder time, mostly because of their lack of powers. But you've got some cool characters on there.

So let me try these matchups, which are semi-arbitrary:

Lady Shiva vs Iron Fist: Since Fist can't use his chi other than to amp his abilities to peak human stats, I think Shiva still wins this one. But it's certainly arguable.

Guts vs Red Sonja: Not knowing the character, I can't say for sure, but from what I read I could certainly imagine a stalemate, and could be argued into a win for Guts. He definitely sounds tough, and born from a hanging corpse?! Craziness!

Cass Cain vs Midnighter: Midnighter would probably take this. But if we sub in Champion, I think Cass wins. I've never been impressed with his actual skills whatever their reputation.

Gamora vs Snake Eyes: I think Gamora might take it simply from a greater breadth of experience against all kinds of villains. But I could see an argument for Snake Eyes.

Finesse vs Spider-Man: Finesse can pick up whatever skills Pete has, and already has more skills beyond that. With no super-agility, I don't think his spidey sense will be of as much help to him as usual. He's not used to fighting with no powers, and I don't think he'd adapt well. Finesse would win this.

Mantis vs Puck: Mantis will definitely win. With no powers, he's a good fighter, but not at these ladies' level.

Wonder Woman vs Ian Nottingham: Again, I don't know the character, but Wonder Woman is often considered one of the most skilled combatants in DC, and has actually been without powers a few times, so she wouldn't be so thrown off as Spidey. I think WW could win this.

So I think I have a few sure wins. Other than that, hard for me to say. What do you think? Great teams though, love the range of characters.

#4 Edited by Stompa (1256 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright here i go:

Marvel Ares (on peak human stats with his battle axe)

Punisher (Combat knife and brass knuckles for the other hand)

Mr. X (two katanas)

Majestics (peak human stats and two swords....the guy is still a kherubim warlord afterall)

Bruce Lee ( two nunchucks)

Taskmaster (sword and shield)

Lobo (peak human stats, chain with hook)

I can´t really explain how they would win but this is a great battle and i think it would be tons of fun to watch these machos fight your all woman team. :-)

#5 Edited by Owie (3616 posts) - - Show Bio

@stompa said:

Alright here i go:

Marvel Ares (on peak human stats with his battle axe)

Punisher (Combat knife and brass knuckles for the other hand)

Mr. X (two katanas)

Majestics (peak human stats and two swords....the guy is still a kherubim warlord afterall)

Bruce Lee ( two nunchucks)

Taskmaster (sword and shield)

Lobo (peak human stats, chain with hook)

I can´t really explain how they would win but this is a great battle and i think it would be tons of fun to watch these machos fight your all woman team. :-)

OK, fun team also! And solid fighters too.

Let's see how this goes (in my mind). I'll make some random match-ups.

Cass Cain vs Mr. X: I'm no expert on Mr. X. Based on what I know, I'm guessing a slight edge for Cassie, but I could be argued into the other direction.

Lady Shiva vs Bruce Lee: I was going to say Shiva because I was thinking of the real guy, but taking his movies into account I don't know, maybe a draw. To a degree her weapons may be slightly more useful.

Finesse vs Taskmaster: While I think she had the upper hand in their previous fight, I think Tasky would probably win through greater experience.

Gamora vs Majestic: I could see it going either way. I haven't read any of his comics directly (I feel like I've been saying this a lot!) but I know he has a pretty unbeatable rep. Still I kind of feel Gamora may have an edge in this high-skill/low-strength style of fighting.

Red Sonja vs Ares: Pretty even match-up, I could see it go either way.

Wonder Woman vs Lobo: I think WW would take this, I don't tend to see Lobo as highly skilled so much as he is a brawler who relies on his powers.

Mantis vs Punisher: stomp in favor of Mantis.

#6 Posted by tparks (4305 posts) - - Show Bio

1.) Iron Fist

2.) Taskmaster (sword and shield)

3.) Moon Knight (staff) (peak human, no lunar super strength)

4.) Drax (two adamantium knives) (current Drax, no energy projection or flight)

5.) Daredevil (Billy Club)

6.) Karnak (reduced to peak human)

7.) Ronan the Accuser (Universal Weapon, but can only be used as a hammer)

Online
#7 Edited by Theorder14 (1348 posts) - - Show Bio

Iron Fist (no chi)

Nightwing ( 2 Escrima sticks)

Yasuri Shichika ( peak human,h2h)

Connor Hawke (peak human,h2h)

Shang Chi (staff)

Taskmaster (sword)

Kenichi (h2h)

#8 Posted by Stompa (1256 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie said:

@stompa said:

Alright here i go:

Marvel Ares (on peak human stats with his battle axe)

Punisher (Combat knife and brass knuckles for the other hand)

Mr. X (two katanas)

Majestics (peak human stats and two swords....the guy is still a kherubim warlord afterall)

Bruce Lee ( two nunchucks)

Taskmaster (sword and shield)

Lobo (peak human stats, chain with hook)

I can´t really explain how they would win but this is a great battle and i think it would be tons of fun to watch these machos fight your all woman team. :-)

OK, fun team also! And solid fighters too.

Let's see how this goes (in my mind). I'll make some random match-ups.

Cass Cain vs Mr. X: I'm no expert on Mr. X. Based on what I know, I'm guessing a slight edge for Cassie, but I could be argued into the other direction.

Lady Shiva vs Bruce Lee: I was going to say Shiva because I was thinking of the real guy, but taking his movies into account I don't know, maybe a draw. To a degree her weapons may be slightly more useful.

Finesse vs Taskmaster: While I think she had the upper hand in their previous fight, I think Tasky would probably win through greater experience.

Gamora vs Majestic: I could see it going either way. I haven't read any of his comics directly (I feel like I've been saying this a lot!) but I know he has a pretty unbeatable rep. Still I kind of feel Gamora may have an edge in this high-skill/low-strength style of fighting.

Red Sonja vs Ares: Pretty even match-up, I could see it go either way.

Wonder Woman vs Lobo: I think WW would take this, I don't tend to see Lobo as highly skilled so much as he is a brawler who relies on his powers.

Mantis vs Punisher: stomp in favor of Mantis.

I choose Punisher and Lobo mainly not for their skill (although Castle has some) but due to the fact they can tons of pain and it dosen´t slow them down (i think Lobo enjoys pain to a degree) any of your team would have a hard time to take them and especially keep them down. I think they would hold their own until the fights the other men would win are decided and then it´s two on one.

#9 Edited by Strider92 (16080 posts) - - Show Bio

This team could pull it off:

  1. Taskmaster (UDON Version)
  2. Backlash
  3. Storm Shadow
  4. Deathstroke (Pre-52)
  5. Prince Of Orphans
  6. Kharn The Betrayer
  7. Batman 1M

#10 Posted by Stompa (1256 posts) - - Show Bio

This team could pull it off:

  1. Taskmaster (UDON Version)
  2. Black Panther (Pre-KoD)
  3. Storm Shadow
  4. Deathstroke (Pre-52)
  5. Prince Of Orphans
  6. Kharn The Betrayer
  7. Batman 1M

Kharn on peak human stats would be a lot less impressive i guess especially without his special equipment. And isn´t PoO´s misting not a bit too powerful....because if not i just would have said MadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadroxMadrox.

#11 Edited by Strider92 (16080 posts) - - Show Bio

@stompa: I should have specified that all the characters there are peak human and don't have any of their superpowers.

Kharn is actually a very skillful hand to hand fighter one of the best in 40k in fact. In Chosen of Kharn he took out a Terminator Lord and a Possessed Marine that was ripping apart Khorne Beserkers with just his hand to hand skills because he was stripped of his armor and weapons. The World Eaters are known for excelling in all forms of close quarter fighting be it armed or unarmed. When they are trained as Space Marine's they get trained in every single martial art available to the 41st century (thats a LOT of different fighting styles some of them Alien). Kharn is 10thousand years old and has fought nearly every type of fighting style in the 40k-verse he has a lot experience (beyond what is humanly possible to achieve) and LOT of different styles.

#12 Posted by Stompa (1256 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: alright i really didn´t want to lowball Kharn i just thought he takes a lot more advantage of his equipment (for example his power armor for durability) compared to let´s say Shang Chi when he uses a weapon. But you sure are right he dosen´t depend to 100% on that to bea a mean ass.

#13 Posted by Owie (3616 posts) - - Show Bio

@stompa said:

I choose Punisher and Lobo mainly not for their skill (although Castle has some) but due to the fact they can tons of pain and it doesn´t slow them down (i think Lobo enjoys pain to a degree) any of your team would have a hard time to take them and especially keep them down. I think they would hold their own until the fights the other men would win are decided and then it´s two on one.

That's reasonable, but this is a morals-off battle. Given the match-ups I used, in any case, Mantis and WW could easily just kill Punisher and Lobo by snapping their necks. Both the women could literally dance around those guys. I don't think pain tolerance would even come into it.

Geez lots of responses all of a sudden. I'm about to go out of town, I'll reply to everyone else in detail tonight or maybe tomorrow night, sorry!

#14 Edited by reikai (4088 posts) - - Show Bio

Shin Natsume w/Reiki (restricted from offensive chi abilities) from Tenjou Tenge

Heihachi Mishima (Tekken)

Lee Shioon (The Breaker)

Baki Hanma (Grappler Baki)

Jubei Yagyu (Ninja Scroll/Resurrection)

Yoichi Karasuma (Asu no Yoichi) (restricted from offensive abilities)

Figure Four (BAA) (restricted from offensive abilities)

#15 Posted by sandiego008 (3283 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: ahhh I haven't been making them, but whenever people say "beat my team" I try to beat it using all female characters so I thought I'd try it here as well.

WW vs Big Barda - I'll give you this one.

Agent Helix vs Cass - Cass should take this

Zealot vs Lady Shiva - Going Zealot

Red Sonja vs Ravenger - I would argue stalemate ... but sonja may take majority. Precog is my argument for ravenger and sonja's lack of healing factor ... but damn can sonja fight.

Nemesis vs Gamora - I would argue Nemesis b/c although gamora is highly downplayed here in comicvine Nemesis is at peak level and has had a ton of training along w/ zealot. The difference is gamora now loses her str/speed/ agility so I feel nemesis has a chance to make up for that.

For my mens team you stomp i just put together a bunch of oddballs. Oh and yes mantis stomps domino unless there is some miracle, I actually consider mantis a contender for top H2H in marvel universe, def top 5.

#16 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

Shura no Toki

Hei - no powers

Claire Stanfield

Scar

Solid Snake

Grahad Mills

#17 Posted by Owie (3616 posts) - - Show Bio
@tparks said:

1.) Iron Fist

2.) Taskmaster (sword and shield)

3.) Moon Knight (staff) (peak human, no lunar super strength)

4.) Drax (two adamantium knives) (current Drax, no energy projection or flight)

5.) Daredevil (Billy Club)

6.) Karnak (reduced to peak human)

7.) Ronan the Accuser (Universal Weapon, but can only be used as a hammer)

I'll beat your team fairly solidly. Most of your team doesn't have the fighting skill necessary to compete at this level.

Mantis vs Karnak: she has beaten him in the past

Finesse vs Taskmaster: as I said for another poster, although Finesse was winning against Taskmaster in their only fight, I think Taskmaster would really win due to greater experience

Lady Shiva vs Daredevil: Lady Shiva wins decisively

Cass Cain vs Iron Fist: Cass wins after a tough battle

Gamora vs Moon Knight: Gamora wins decisively

Red Sonja vs Ronan (reduced to human strength/durability): Red Sonja wins. Ronan is not a particularly skilled fighter.

Wonder Woman vs Drax: Wonder Woman wins after a decent fight. Drax is a nice idea, and could potentially beat a lot of street level fighters, but not most of the people on my team.

Iron Fist (no chi)

Nightwing ( 2 Escrima sticks)

Yasuri Shichika ( peak human,h2h)

Connor Hawke (peak human,h2h)

Shang Chi (staff)

Taskmaster (sword)

Kenichi (h2h)

I know nothing about anime/manga, so I can't comment on Yashuri or Kenichi. Otherwise, here's how I see it:

Lady Shiva beats Iron Fist after a good fight.

Cass Cain beats Nightwing decisively.

Mantis beats Shang Chi.

Finesse loses to Taskmaster (I probably shouldn't have used her !)

Gamora probably beats Connor Hawke in a decent fight.

Leaving Wonder Woman and Red Sonja to take on Yashuri and Kenichi, and I have no idea how that goes down.

This team could pull it off:

  1. Taskmaster (UDON Version)
  2. Backlash
  3. Storm Shadow
  4. Deathstroke (Pre-52)
  5. Prince Of Orphans
  6. Kharn The Betrayer
  7. Batman 1M

I think you're could be right, although I have a chance, at least in initial matchups. I'm not familiar with them all, but based on what I've just read I could reasonably believe that your team stalemates, or wins or loses after a good fight.

Taskmaster beats Finesse.

Deathstroke CAN beat Cass, although I don't know if he would take a majority, especially when reduced to peak human and no healing factor.

Storm Shadow is awesome, I'm not sure if he would necessarily beat anyone on my team though. But I could believe he could beat Red Sonja.

Batman 1000000 beats Lady Shiva.

Kharn could possibly beat Gamora. Or not. I don't know.

Prince of Orphans could potentially beat Wonder Woman.

Backlash against Mantis. Again I don't know him, but he seems very impressive. But I'd say Mantis has a chance.

In the end, Batman 1 million probably cleans up. I'd be interested in hearing what you think about these or any other specific matchups.

@reikai: @nerx: I'm sorry, I know nothing about manga or video game characters so I really can't comment.

@owie: ahhh I haven't been making them, but whenever people say "beat my team" I try to beat it using all female characters so I thought I'd try it here as well.

WW vs Big Barda - I'll give you this one.

Agent Helix vs Cass - Cass should take this

Zealot vs Lady Shiva - Going Zealot

Red Sonja vs Ravenger - I would argue stalemate ... but sonja may take majority. Precog is my argument for ravenger and sonja's lack of healing factor ... but damn can sonja fight.

Nemesis vs Gamora - I would argue Nemesis b/c although gamora is highly downplayed here in comicvine Nemesis is at peak level and has had a ton of training along w/ zealot. The difference is gamora now loses her str/speed/ agility so I feel nemesis has a chance to make up for that.

For my mens team you stomp i just put together a bunch of oddballs. Oh and yes mantis stomps domino unless there is some miracle, I actually consider mantis a contender for top H2H in marvel universe, def top 5.

Oh ok cool. Actually I've tried to do that sometimes too. I can buy Zealot and potentially Nemesis. But in Nemesis/Gamora, they'll both be peak, so they're even on that score. And stalemate between Ravager and Sonja sounds fine to me too. I agree, Mantis is at least top 5 in Marvel.

#18 Edited by reikai (4088 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: I'm sorry, I know nothing about manga or video game characters so I really can't comment.

They're all remarkable martial artists and/or swordsman. A number of which I cannot display on the forums due to their graphic nature and extreme violence of the scenes. ie; Jubei turning an alleyway full of shinobi into eviscerated body parts in a matter of seconds.

Yoichi is much tamer and was more a Harem anime than most other things, though still martial arts related. He was skilled as such the wind-pressure from one of his strikes was enough to knock a man off their feet and send them tumbling several meters away. A blow to the neck area that never connected. And he was using a boken (aka wooden sword).

Heihachi is more self-explanatory from Tekken. He may be old, but his toughness is legendary and he's an absolute beast of a fighter. Most of the top 10 fighters in Tekken all seem to stem from the Mishima or Kazama bloodlines. Heihachi alone would break so many of these fighters.

#19 Edited by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio
#20 Edited by BataTest (292 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce Wayne(Batman Gauntlets)

Richard Dragon (nun-chucks)

David Alleyne(w. Powers kung fu spear)

Artemis(Sword & shield)

Ra's al Ghul(sword)

Bulls-eye (chain whip)

Shang-Chi (Three-Section Staffs)

#21 Edited by Owie (3616 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai: I appreciate the info. I'll have to take your word on it but I do know that in general manga feats seem to be on a different level than western comics. I do wonder, however, how they/their feats would stand if reduced to true human levels. Whether they're supposed to be human level or not, clearly being able to create wind effects through movement, or create that giant energy blast when clashing together like in the video, are superhuman-level feats.

@nerx said:

@owie: http://www.comicvine.com/solid-snake/4005-45828/forums/solid-snake-respect-thread-725340/

Solid snake is a videogame character with a comic book (non-manga) appearance arguably a match for bats/cap

Thanks for the link. I've also read some of his battle threads. I can imagine that he could potentially take a win here. Although again he has to be reduced to peak human, and Nickzambuto certainly makes the argument that he is actually superhuman. Plus I'd say that most of my characters are above Cap and Batman. But again I could at least potentially see him winning.

@batatest said:

Bruce Wayne(Batman Gauntlets)

Richard Dragon (nun-chucks)

David Alleyne(w. Powers kung fu spear)

Artemis(Sword & shield)

Ra's al Ghul(sword)

Bulls-eye (chain whip)

Shang-Chi (Three-Section Staffs)

Nice team. I assume that when you say Bulls-eye, you mean Lester and not one of the minor characters who use the same name except they use a hyphen?

I'd say Richard Dragon and Lady Shiva are more or less evenly matched. To a degree I'd say her body-language technique would give her the edge, but probably not enough to make a real argument in favor of her. And she has a bit more reach with the chain from her kusari-gama. But, call it a draw.

Wonder Woman and Artemis are also pretty much even. I could imagine giving Artemis a slight edge since she is more used to fighting at a lower strength level, but again I'd basically call it a draw.

Finesse vs Prodigy. Cool idea. I didn't realize his power could copy skills in addition to powers. Again, looks basically like a draw. I could see an argument where he has a possible advantage due to the fact that his power copies someone's skills all at once, whereas Finesse copies someone's skills by watching them move by move.

Cass Cain vs Batman. I'm personally of the opinion that Cass would win a fight under these conditions. Her katanas also give her an advantage over his gauntlets here. It's obviously a debatable topic.

Mantis vs Shang-chi: I think Mantis would take this. Not easily, but ultimately. I was interested to see, however, that Shang-chi has been in the Avengers recently. I haven't really been following him in recent years and I'm glad to see they're giving him a chance to rack up some real feats against actual bad guys.

Gamora vs R'as al Ghul: Basically the same as the above. I think Gamora would ultimately take this. She's defeated superhumans on a regular basis.

Red Sonja vs Bullseye. This is a kind of weird match-up and could spark some unpredictable outcomes. And the chain whip probably would work well in combination with his skills, and gives him the range advantage. But generally speaking I think Red Sonja would beat him in hand to hand, and I think she could potentially grab on his whip and keep him from using it. Now if it were under other circumstances, and he had throwing weapons, then I'd go with him.

#22 Posted by reikai (4088 posts) - - Show Bio

In the Tekken vid that wasn't an energy blast. That would be considered a Shock Wave. The concussive force of their fists clashing was so powerful it created a shockwave that shattered the wood and windows of that entire level of the pagoda castle and knocked Ling Xiaoyu out of it and down the rooftops.

Of the three fighting, Heihachi is the only one who doesn't have the Devil Gene, which was why he had no aura. But he's still considerably strong. As things are though, you often can't separate someone's skill and ability and reduce them to a "human" level since that level is not strictly clear.

We have power lifters who can lift over 800lbs. But we have martial artist who may not be able to lift 100lbs who can break a dozen concrete bricks with their hand through skill. Martial Art discipline can enable people to do things that're seemingly super-human through mental focus.

#23 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

Mister X

Batman

Batman 1000000

Deathstroke

Daredevil

Black Panther(limited to peak human enchanced by the herb)

Richard Dragon

See it's that easy.My team are all males,with non offensive powers and limited to peak human stats.And they they still kick the crap out of any martial arts team someone can build.

#24 Posted by CaptainDoeo (789 posts) - - Show Bio

Taskmaster (Sword & Shield)

Starkiller (no force, two katanas)

Captain America (Shield)

Midnighter (staff)

Deathstroke (staff)

Daredevil (billy clubs)

Bullseye (twin daggers)

#25 Posted by DaAwesome2 (266 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman, Storm Shadow, Snake Eyes, Sensei, Richard Dragon, Taskmaster, Cap.

#26 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: he's like them in a way that he can take down seemingly tougher opponents with wit and grit

#27 Edited by AllStarSuperman (19907 posts) - - Show Bio

Snake Eyes

Storm Shadow

Raizo (ninja assassin)

Yang (the warriors way)

Midnighter

Taskmaster

Prometheus

#28 Posted by Owie (3616 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx said:

@owie: he's like them in a way that he can take down seemingly tougher opponents with wit and grit

Gotcha.

@reikai said:

In the Tekken vid that wasn't an energy blast. That would be considered a Shock Wave. The concussive force of their fists clashing was so powerful it created a shockwave that shattered the wood and windows of that entire level of the pagoda castle and knocked Ling Xiaoyu out of it and down the rooftops.

Of the three fighting, Heihachi is the only one who doesn't have the Devil Gene, which was why he had no aura. But he's still considerably strong. As things are though, you often can't separate someone's skill and ability and reduce them to a "human" level since that level is not strictly clear.

We have power lifters who can lift over 800lbs. But we have martial artist who may not be able to lift 100lbs who can break a dozen concrete bricks with their hand through skill. Martial Art discipline can enable people to do things that're seemingly super-human through mental focus.

Shock wave, energy blast, either way it's the result of force beyond normal human capacity.

It may not be clear exactly what's human and what's not, especially in comics, but making shock waves, and knocking people down with wind generated by your movements, is not standard human. I'm very familiar with actual martial arts, and I have a pretty open mind as to what can be accomplished through skill and dedication, but shockwaves and wind generation are past human and past comic human. I'm not saying your team wouldn't win, I'm just saying that skill can't do everything.

@stronger said:

Mister X

Batman

Batman 1000000

Deathstroke

Daredevil

Black Panther(limited to peak human enchanced by the herb)

Richard Dragon

See it's that easy.My team are all males,with non offensive powers and limited to peak human stats.And they they still kick the crap out of any martial arts team someone can build.

Well, it's not a question of whether it's hard, although there are only so many characters out there that can fit the bill, it's whether you can do it creatively. But yes, your team would do fairly well.

Here's how I see it.

Shiva/Richard Dragon: stalemate

Cass/Deathstroke: could go either way. With Deathstroke's reduced stats, I give a slight majority to Cass.

Gamora/Mister X: Could go either way. Possible majority to X.

Mantis/Black Panther: Mantis in a long fight.

Red Sonja/Batman 1 million: Batman 1 million wins clearly.

Finesse/Daredevil: This could potentially go either way. Finesse is going to have picked up way more skills than DD based on all the people she's around, but I'd give it to DD based on experience.

Wonder Woman/Batman: This is a very arguable fight, but I can see WW winning this.

Taskmaster (Sword & Shield)

Starkiller (no force, two katanas)

Captain America (Shield)

Midnighter (staff)

Deathstroke (staff)

Daredevil (billy clubs)

Bullseye (twin daggers)

Taskmasker vs Finesse: Taskmaster will win through experience.

Cap vs Mantis: I'm giving this to Mantis.

Midnighter vs Shiva: Midnighter

Deathstroke vs Cass: again I'll give Cass a slight majority

Daredevil vs Wonder Woman: Wonder Woman.

Bullseye vs Finesse: I could see Finesse winning this actually.

Starkiller vs Red Sonja: I don't know Starkiller well enough, but I would guess this could go either way, probably with a slight advantage to Starkiller. Nice choice, a lot of Jedi/Sith would do well in this thread.

Batman, Storm Shadow, Snake Eyes, Sensei, Richard Dragon, Taskmaster, Cap.

Batman vs Red Sonja, I'm going with Sonja but it's arguable.

Storm Shadow vs Gamora, Debatable, but I think slight majority to Gamora. Although I was looking at some good Stormshadow stuff the other day. Eh, could go either way.

Snake Eyes vs Cass, slight majority to Cass

Richard Dragon vs Shiva, stalemate

Taskmaster vs Finesse, Tasky wins

Cap vs Wonder Woman, I'm saying WW in slight majority

Sensei vs Mantis: either way, maybe advantage to Mantis

Snake Eyes

Storm Shadow

Raizo (ninja assassin)

Yang (the warriors way)

Midnighter

Taskmaster

Prometheus

I haven't seen the movies with Raizo or Yang.

Without going into specific matchups again, I think Snakes and Storm Shadow are potentially beatable but only by my best people. Tasky will beat Finesse, Midnighter will win against anyone. I don't know much about Prometheus but it seems like he could beat just about anyone--although, I'm not sure how he'd do without his tech, my impression is he might not have all those skills without his helmet. Very solid team.

#29 Edited by AllStarSuperman (19907 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie said:
@allstarsuperman said:

Snake Eyes

Storm Shadow

Raizo (ninja assassin)

Yang (the warriors way)

Midnighter

Taskmaster

Prometheus

I haven't seen the movies with Raizo or Yang.

Without going into specific matchups again, I think Snakes and Storm Shadow are potentially beatable but only by my best people. Tasky will beat Finesse, Midnighter will win against anyone. I don't know much about Prometheus but it seems like he could beat just about anyone--although, I'm not sure how he'd do without his tech, my impression is he might not have all those skills without his helmet. Very solid team.

Well heres some of Yang's fights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us6y1ac8R_E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY1DI66feRg

those were awesome, but this next one is just like the ending of Kick-Ass!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU0C7rXFhx8

Now Raizo is like superfast, has incredible pain tolerance, and can regenerate if he consintrates:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt9R_DaXJQU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU5k5eKxgK8&feature=player_embedded

#30 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie:

@stronger said:

Mister X

Batman

Batman 1000000

Deathstroke

Daredevil

Black Panther(limited to peak human enchanced by the herb)

Richard Dragon

See it's that easy.My team are all males,with non offensive powers and limited to peak human stats.And they they still kick the crap out of any martial arts team someone can build.

Well, it's not a question of whether it's hard, although there are only so many characters out there that can fit the bill, it's whether you can do it creatively. But yes, your team would do fairly well.

Here's how I see it.

Shiva/Richard Dragon: stalemate

Cass/Deathstroke: could go either way. With Deathstroke's reduced stats, I give a slight majority to Cass.

Gamora/Mister X: Could go either way. Possible majority to X.

Mantis/Black Panther: Mantis in a long fight.

Red Sonja/Batman 1 million: Batman 1 million wins clearly.

Finesse/Daredevil: This could potentially go either way. Finesse is going to have picked up way more skills than DD based on all the people she's around, but I'd give it to DD based on experience.

Wonder Woman/Batman: This is a very arguable fight, but I can see WW winning this.

1.Dragon has already beaten Shiva in Chuck Dixon's miniseries,if we consider them canon.

2.Deathstroke is enhanced.But in a peak human level.Similar to Captain America.So I don't think Cass would take the majority of their matches.

3.Well it's not even debatable Mister X would lose any martial arts match up without PIS or CIS or any version of plot.Mister X can only be beaten if his telepathy is blocked,something very rare to see.IMO Mister X would win any of the character you chose straight 101 unarmed combat.

4.About Mantis and Black Panther,I am not sure.Although Black Panther plenty of feats against some of the greatest martial artists like Wolverine,Deadpool and Captain America etc,Mantis is possibly the second greatest martial artist in the whole MU.I give a very slight majority to Mantis like 5.5-6/10 in a long fight.

5.This is not even debatable.Batman stomps IMO.

6.Well Daredevil has previously beaten Taskmaster,so I don't think it's going to be that hard for him to beat her too.Daredevil in a good fight.

7.Batman stomps.Please provide me with some scans indicating that Wonder Woman could even beat Tim Drake.And I want scans.Not theories about how much time WW has spent on training cause that's useless.I want feats of her beating someone equally skilled to Tim Drake.If you you'd like to debate on that of course.

The way I see it,even if your team can pull of some wins,in the end,my boys will prevail.

You are free to debate with me on any occasion any time you want,my friend.....

#31 Posted by Owie (3616 posts) - - Show Bio

Well heres some of Yang's fights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us6y1ac8R_E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY1DI66feRg

those were awesome, but this next one is just like the ending of Kick-Ass!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU0C7rXFhx8

Now Raizo is like superfast, has incredible pain tolerance, and can regenerate if he consintrates:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt9R_DaXJQU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU5k5eKxgK8&feature=player_embedded

Sweet! Little bit o' blood spurting there, eh?

@stronger said:

@owie:

@stronger said:

Mister X

Batman

Batman 1000000

Deathstroke

Daredevil

Black Panther(limited to peak human enchanced by the herb)

Richard Dragon

See it's that easy.My team are all males,with non offensive powers and limited to peak human stats.And they they still kick the crap out of any martial arts team someone can build.

Well, it's not a question of whether it's hard, although there are only so many characters out there that can fit the bill, it's whether you can do it creatively. But yes, your team would do fairly well.

Here's how I see it.

Shiva/Richard Dragon: stalemate

Cass/Deathstroke: could go either way. With Deathstroke's reduced stats, I give a slight majority to Cass.

Gamora/Mister X: Could go either way. Possible majority to X.

Mantis/Black Panther: Mantis in a long fight.

Red Sonja/Batman 1 million: Batman 1 million wins clearly.

Finesse/Daredevil: This could potentially go either way. Finesse is going to have picked up way more skills than DD based on all the people she's around, but I'd give it to DD based on experience.

Wonder Woman/Batman: This is a very arguable fight, but I can see WW winning this.

1.Dragon has already beaten Shiva in Chuck Dixon's miniseries,if we consider them canon.

2.Deathstroke is enhanced.But in a peak human level.Similar to Captain America.So I don't think Cass would take the majority of their matches.

3.Well it's not even debatable Mister X would lose any martial arts match up without PIS or CIS or any version of plot.Mister X can only be beaten if his telepathy is blocked,something very rare to see.IMO Mister X would win any of the character you chose straight 101 unarmed combat.

4.About Mantis and Black Panther,I am not sure.Although Black Panther plenty of feats against some of the greatest martial artists like Wolverine,Deadpool and Captain America etc,Mantis is possibly the second greatest martial artist in the whole MU.I give a very slight majority to Mantis like 5.5-6/10 in a long fight.

5.This is not even debatable.Batman stomps IMO.

6.Well Daredevil has previously beaten Taskmaster,so I don't think it's going to be that hard for him to beat her too.Daredevil in a good fight.

7.Batman stomps.Please provide me with some scans indicating that Wonder Woman could even beat Tim Drake.And I want scans.Not theories about how much time WW has spent on training cause that's useless.I want feats of her beating someone equally skilled to Tim Drake.If you you'd like to debate on that of course.

The way I see it,even if your team can pull of some wins,in the end,my boys will prevail.

You are free to debate with me on any occasion any time you want,my friend.....

1. Yes, although many don't consider them canon, and in general most people consider them more or less equal. There's not enough discernable skill difference to make a realistic choice of one over the other.

2. Deathstroke has had enough trouble with her even at his normal stats, and stated that he can only do so by getting in her mind. Now that she's had that experience, she'll be ready for that. And, when he's dropped down to this level from his normal stats, I don't think he'll take the majority.

3. It's not that he can't be beaten, it's that it's very hard to do.

4. That's what I'm saying too.

5. I already said that.

6. Yes. Although this fight is a bit different than his comics fights against Tasky, in that here she is surrounded by some of the greatest fighters in both universes, so she would pick up stuff way past what Tasky had in the comics. But still like I said I think DD would probably win.

7. Right, Wonder Woman has never fought anyone who is as skilled as Tim Drake. Never ever. Nope, she just never fights anyone with any skills at all. Gosh how could I have ever come to such a silly conclusion.

Look, obviously it's a debatable point. There are some people on one side of that argument, and some on the other. But when you say dumb stuff like that, you don't exactly make people interested in having a debate with you.

In the end I do think your team would win due to Batman 1 million.

#32 Posted by HyperViper97 (1342 posts) - - Show Bio

You want an all dude team?

Batman

Bruce lee w/ nunchucks

Peak human lobo with chain thingy

The rock

The end

#33 Edited by AllStarSuperman (19907 posts) - - Show Bio

You want an all dude team?

Batman

Bruce lee w/ nunchucks

Peak human lobo with chain thingy

The rock

The end

Batman is the only one who stands a chance! Bruce Lee and The Rock are real and there skills to not compare to comic characters. And Lobo is not that great a fighter compared to Lady Shiva.

@owie said:

@allstarsuperman said:

Well heres some of Yang's fights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us6y1ac8R_E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY1DI66feRg

those were awesome, but this next one is just like the ending of Kick-Ass!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU0C7rXFhx8

Now Raizo is like superfast, has incredible pain tolerance, and can regenerate if he consintrates:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt9R_DaXJQU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU5k5eKxgK8&feature=player_embedded

Sweet! Little bit o' blood spurting there, eh?

yes, I watched GI Joe Retaliation and nobody got stabbed in the movie. so I decided to watch some awesome ninja movies.

#34 Posted by Sherlock (7232 posts) - - Show Bio

Link-Sword/Shield

Mr X-Dual Katanas

Chase Young-Unarmed (No that does not mean he has no arms)

Claire Stanfield-Unarmed

Mystique-Dual knives

King Bradley-Four Sabres

Daredevil-Billy Clubs

I think my team takes yours personally but the fight would be pretty freaking awesome

#35 Edited by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie said:
@stronger said:

@owie:

@stronger said:

Mister X

Batman

Batman 1000000

Deathstroke

Daredevil

Black Panther(limited to peak human enchanced by the herb)

Richard Dragon

See it's that easy.My team are all males,with non offensive powers and limited to peak human stats.And they they still kick the crap out of any martial arts team someone can build.

Well, it's not a question of whether it's hard, although there are only so many characters out there that can fit the bill, it's whether you can do it creatively. But yes, your team would do fairly well.

Here's how I see it.

Shiva/Richard Dragon: stalemate

Cass/Deathstroke: could go either way. With Deathstroke's reduced stats, I give a slight majority to Cass.

Gamora/Mister X: Could go either way. Possible majority to X.

Mantis/Black Panther: Mantis in a long fight.

Red Sonja/Batman 1 million: Batman 1 million wins clearly.

Finesse/Daredevil: This could potentially go either way. Finesse is going to have picked up way more skills than DD based on all the people she's around, but I'd give it to DD based on experience.

Wonder Woman/Batman: This is a very arguable fight, but I can see WW winning this.

1.Dragon has already beaten Shiva in Chuck Dixon's miniseries,if we consider them canon.

2.Deathstroke is enhanced.But in a peak human level.Similar to Captain America.So I don't think Cass would take the majority of their matches.

3.Well it's not even debatable Mister X would lose any martial arts match up without PIS or CIS or any version of plot.Mister X can only be beaten if his telepathy is blocked,something very rare to see.IMO Mister X would win any of the character you chose straight 101 unarmed combat.

4.About Mantis and Black Panther,I am not sure.Although Black Panther plenty of feats against some of the greatest martial artists like Wolverine,Deadpool and Captain America etc,Mantis is possibly the second greatest martial artist in the whole MU.I give a very slight majority to Mantis like 5.5-6/10 in a long fight.

5.This is not even debatable.Batman stomps IMO.

6.Well Daredevil has previously beaten Taskmaster,so I don't think it's going to be that hard for him to beat her too.Daredevil in a good fight.

7.Batman stomps.Please provide me with some scans indicating that Wonder Woman could even beat Tim Drake.And I want scans.Not theories about how much time WW has spent on training cause that's useless.I want feats of her beating someone equally skilled to Tim Drake.If you you'd like to debate on that of course.

The way I see it,even if your team can pull of some wins,in the end,my boys will prevail.

You are free to debate with me on any occasion any time you want,my friend.....

1. Yes, although many don't consider them canon, and in general most people consider them more or less equal. There's not enough discernable skill difference to make a realistic choice of one over the other.

2. Deathstroke has had enough trouble with her even at his normal stats, and stated that he can only do so by getting in her mind. Now that she's had that experience, she'll be ready for that. And, when he's dropped down to this level from his normal stats, I don't think he'll take the majority.

3. It's not that he can't be beaten, it's that it's very hard to do.

4. That's what I'm saying too.

5. I already said that.

6. Yes. Although this fight is a bit different than his comics fights against Tasky, in that here she is surrounded by some of the greatest fighters in both universes, so she would pick up stuff way past what Tasky had in the comics. But still like I said I think DD would probably win.

7. Right, Wonder Woman has never fought anyone who is as skilled as Tim Drake. Never ever. Nope, she just never fights anyone with any skills at all. Gosh how could I have ever come to such a silly conclusion.

Look, obviously it's a debatable point. There are some people on one side of that argument, and some on the other. But when you say dumb stuff like that, you don't exactly make people interested in having a debate with you.

In the end I do think your team would win due to Batman 1 million.

1.If we consider them canon,Richard has this after a good fight.If not,i 'd have to give it to Shiva due to more feats.

2.Deathstroke 's normal stats are the same like Captain America's.I don't see why it's different now.

3.Mister X can only be beaten via PIS (like the fight with Iron Fist) or something blocks his telepathy,like Wolverine when he went beserk and nearly killed him.I don't see how Gamora is going to achieve that.

4.It would be nice of you to stop writing ironic stuff and post some Wonder Woman h2h feats already that are comparable to Batman's.

#36 Posted by SSJLozza (1528 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie:

Sub Zero

Scorpion

Ryu

Batman

Liu Kang

Akuma- retains his ability to go intangible since that is defensive.

Richard Dragon

All that are above peak human limited to peak human and all powers swiped.

#37 Edited by mrtrevorguy (1198 posts) - - Show Bio

Taskmaster (2 knives)

Batman (brass knuckles)

De-powered Herculed (sword and shield)

Captain America

Ip man (movie version)

DareDevil (with billy clubs)

Black Panther (before power up)

#38 Posted by Owie (3616 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger said:

@owie said:
.Dragon has already beaten Shiva in Chuck Dixon's miniseries,if we consider them canon.

2.Deathstroke is enhanced.But in a peak human level.Similar to Captain America.So I don't think Cass would take the majority of their matches.

3.Well it's not even debatable Mister X would lose any martial arts match up without PIS or CIS or any version of plot.Mister X can only be beaten if his telepathy is blocked,something very rare to see.IMO Mister X would win any of the character you chose straight 101 unarmed combat.

4.About Mantis and Black Panther,I am not sure.Although Black Panther plenty of feats against some of the greatest martial artists like Wolverine,Deadpool and Captain America etc,Mantis is possibly the second greatest martial artist in the whole MU.I give a very slight majority to Mantis like 5.5-6/10 in a long fight.

5.This is not even debatable.Batman stomps IMO.

6.Well Daredevil has previously beaten Taskmaster,so I don't think it's going to be that hard for him to beat her too.Daredevil in a good fight.

7.Batman stomps.Please provide me with some scans indicating that Wonder Woman could even beat Tim Drake.And I want scans.Not theories about how much time WW has spent on training cause that's useless.I want feats of her beating someone equally skilled to Tim Drake.If you you'd like to debate on that of course.

The way I see it,even if your team can pull of some wins,in the end,my boys will prevail.

You are free to debate with me on any occasion any time you want,my friend.....

1. Yes, although many don't consider them canon, and in general most people consider them more or less equal. There's not enough discernable skill difference to make a realistic choice of one over the other.

2. Deathstroke has had enough trouble with her even at his normal stats, and stated that he can only do so by getting in her mind. Now that she's had that experience, she'll be ready for that. And, when he's dropped down to this level from his normal stats, I don't think he'll take the majority.

3. It's not that he can't be beaten, it's that it's very hard to do.

4. That's what I'm saying too.

5. I already said that.

6. Yes. Although this fight is a bit different than his comics fights against Tasky, in that here she is surrounded by some of the greatest fighters in both universes, so she would pick up stuff way past what Tasky had in the comics. But still like I said I think DD would probably win.

7. Right, Wonder Woman has never fought anyone who is as skilled as Tim Drake. Never ever. Nope, she just never fights anyone with any skills at all. Gosh how could I have ever come to such a silly conclusion.

Look, obviously it's a debatable point. There are some people on one side of that argument, and some on the other. But when you say dumb stuff like that, you don't exactly make people interested in having a debate with you.

In the end I do think your team would win due to Batman 1 million.

1.If we consider them canon,Richard has this after a good fight.If not,i 'd have to give it to Shiva due to more feats.

2.Deathstroke 's normal stats are the same like Captain America's.I don't see why it's different now.

3.Mister X can only be beaten via PIS (like the fight with Iron Fist) or something blocks his telepathy,like Wolverine when he went beserk and nearly killed him.I don't see how Gamora is going to achieve that.

4.It would be nice of you to stop writing ironic stuff and post some Wonder Woman h2h feats already that are comparable to Batman's.

Deathstroke's stats are slightly superhuman. Not as much as, say, Spider-Man's, but above Cap's. What's the phrase? As strong as ten men? He's ripped open steel doors and whatnot. Plus here he doesn't get his healing factor. He is allowed to keep his super-brain though.

I'll stop being ironic if you aren't condescending about her. Saying she doesn't have the track record to beat Tim Drake is silly and doesn't make people think you're interested in an actual conversation. I've got no vault of WW scans, so that's all there is to that. But all I need to do is point out that Batman said she's the best melee fighter in the world. And while people like to argue about what "melee" means exactly (is it a melee if there are no weapons?), this battle here is certainly a melee, WW's got a sword and shield. So if you don't want to count that, you need a reason to discount it (besides the good old "we don't believe anything the characters say," a popular choice). Was he lying or disingenuous for some reason? Probably not, since he was talking to himself. Does he just not know what he's talking about? If not, then that only diminishes his own abilities, because if he doesn't know what it takes to be the best melee fighter, then he's not a good melee fighter himself. Myself, I think he wouldn't have said it unless he meant it, and I think he's a reputable source, and we should believe what he says.

If you want skilled opponents she's fought, you've got repeat enemies like Artemis (the Amazon) and Ares (the god). In the New 52 (although the character in this thread is pre-52), you've got her being trained by Ares as one of his best students. Throughout her history, you've got her blocking bullets and arrows and whatnot--obviously partly due to her superhuman speed, but this is also a skill feat; you need skill to put your wrists in the right place at the right time every split second. If you can block scores of arrows or swords, you can block punches too.

Actually, I just looked up some feat threads. This one collects many of them: training Black Canary, Black Canary commenting on her fighting style, beating the JLA blindfolded (if if that is PIS), more blindfolded fighting including when she was retrained by I-Ching when she was depowered.

Plus here are two pages showing her sparring with Batman, coming off about equal.

Obviously she doesn't go around kung-fu-ing people often, so there's not a glut of scans of that. Obviously there are a million more Batman vs ninja fights than WW vs ninja fights. But she does do a lot of sword fighting, and that's what's she's doing in this thread. I'm personally confident in her skills in that arena. If you're not, I can understand that but I disagree.

Finally, if that doesn't convince you, her enemies also include the formidable Mouse Man, Paper Man, and Crimson Centipede!

#39 Posted by Owie (3616 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssjlozza said:

@owie:

Sub Zero

Scorpion

Ryu

Batman

Liu Kang

Akuma- retains his ability to go intangible since that is defensive.

Richard Dragon

All that are above peak human limited to peak human and all powers swiped.

As I mentioned to a few people before, I don't really know anything about video game characters so I can't comment (sorry), except for Richard Dragon who again I'll say stalemates Shiva. Intangibility is one of those "spite style" powers that the OP disallows.

Taskmaster (2 knives)

Batman (brass knuckles)

De-powered Herculed (sword and shield)

Captain America

Ip man (movie version)

DareDevil (with billy clubs)

Black Panther (before power up)

OK, solid team, but I think I win most of them. Tasky beats Finesse, who by this point I don't know why I put her in here. WW beats Herc in a close one, she's arguably more skilled and far more agile. Arguable, but that's my take on it (although I used to think the opposite). Shiva beats Batman. Red Sonja probably stalemates Cap. Mantis beats Black Panther. Cass beats DD. Gamora beats Ip Man, who let's not forget almost lost to a western boxer! :)

#40 Edited by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie:

I have also seen Cap breaking steel doors,and while he was injured.Despite the healing factor,I don't see hoe it changes things.

Again,as everybody else you bring up Batman's false statements.....

As I have said to other viners who did that again,statements are plain,superficial if they are not backed up with actual feats.It's useless to bring up because most of the times are false. For example,Superman said Batman is the most dangerous man on the planet.I can name at least five as or more dangerous than him.Batman also said Dick has surpassed him.Also unclear and false.Again,Batman said Shiva is the greatest martial artist ever.Well people like Karate Kid,Batman One Million,Cassandra Cain and Deathstroke are better. See,sentences cannot be taken seriously in the battle forums.I could possibly post like five more false sentences like them.

Well,Artemis has beaten her and she is a lot weaker than her.Wonder Woman is a 100 tonner and Artemis is like 15.That is really a bad showing.

Ares never went full power on Wonder Woman cause he 'd kill her and that was not his intention.In all their fights he held back a lot.

Do you know Black Canary beat her in a sparring match with bo stuffs?Anyway bringing up sparring matches is as pointless as bringing statements of other characters.During sparring,both combatants hold back.Wolverine beat the crap out of Iron Fist in a sparring match.As I said Black Canary also beat Wonder Woman in sparring.Wildcat also gave a good fight to Batman in their sparring matches,before he went down.When they fought for real,Batman one-shotted him unconcious.Also check out this:

See.Sparring is far from reality.Anyone who has been involved in a real fight knows that.

If you remember correctly,she beating the whole JLA team in a sparring match until Batman came and pressure pointed her.

Anyway,Martian Manhunter alone or Plastic Man would beat the crap out of her.It was just sparring.

I am not confident in Wonder Woman's skill cause noone can prove that Wonder Woman actually has the skill everyone is talking about.I casually see people portaying Wonder Woman like she is in the top ten of DC's martial artists.And noone has ever brought up any actual evidence that could point that.

I understand that liking a character that much usually makes people stating wrong things.I am a (Batman)fanboy too and maybe worse than anyone on this site,but when it comes to debating,I 'd like to put those things aside.

I could flood this thread with Batman martial arts feats if you 'd like.

#41 Posted by sinestro_GL (3050 posts) - - Show Bio

Chuck Norris

Batman

Morgan Freeman

#42 Edited by Owie (3616 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger: I just want to clear up a few things. One, I'm not even vaguely a Wonder Woman fanboy, I think the character is OK, and I like her recent series, but otherwise she's not that special to me. So I'm only arguing based on my own perception, and nothing else. In the case of Wonder Woman, as I already said, there aren't a ton of H2H feats of this kind, so we need to look at the other evidence and analyze that to come up with our best sense of the situation. Me, I take into account all that stuff about her Amazonian training, because that's the evidence that we have. You don't. Fair enough.

Two, clearly Batman has a voluminous, consistent set of impressive hand-to-hand feats. I like Batman a lot more than I like Wonder Woman, and respect his abilities. That said, it's not like he never loses.

Three, obviously sparring matches aren't the same as real fights. But in comics, they are often used to point out to readers how different characters match up in terms of skills.

Four, just because characters have said some silly things before doesn't mean everything they say is wrong. If we don't believe what they say, why should we believe what we see either? I take it as granted that what informed characters say is more or less the truth, because otherwise there's no reason to read comics. If you're saying straight out that it was a false statement--in effect calling PIS on a statement in the same way we call PIS on a visual feat--you need to a reason to say that. What data proves that he was making a false statement? If you want to look at some of those other statements, you can understand why the characters said them. Talking about Lady Shiva, for example, he's clearly talking about standard martial artists, and not bringing in metahumans or people from other time periods. At worst, those comments can be taken as general statements; maybe person X isn't the VERY best, but perhaps only ONE OF the best. Taken like this, the statements remain valid and useful. In this case, we can at the worst understand that Batman thinks Wonder Woman is one of the best melee fighters in the world. This statement on its own may not be enough to prove she can definitively beat him, but it sure does make it seem pretty reasonable that she can hang with him. All the sparring matches and fights I've seen between them more or less make them seem about equal in skill. Me, I've been giving a slight edge to her based on my own general impression. Heck, while discussing this I've seen more Batman/WW matches than I had before, and I'm honestly leaning more towards a draw now than I was before. If you go the other way, it's not like I can prove it to you, that's just your read on the hundreds of comics they've both been in. But my impression is that DC seems to think that Diana is at least of equal skill level as Batman, and that if they did ever magically put them in a situation where they fought like this, that Batman would not beat her.

#43 Edited by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie said:

@stronger: I just want to clear up a few things. One, I'm not even vaguely a Wonder Woman fanboy, I think the character is OK, and I like her recent series, but otherwise she's not that special to me. So I'm only arguing based on my own perception, and nothing else. In the case of Wonder Woman, as I already said, there aren't a ton of H2H feats of this kind, so we need to look at the other evidence and analyze that to come up with our best sense of the situation. Me, I take into account all that stuff about her Amazonian training, because that's the evidence that we have. You don't. Fair enough.

Two, clearly Batman has a voluminous, consistent set of impressive hand-to-hand feats. I like Batman a lot more than I like Wonder Woman, and respect his abilities. That said, it's not like he never loses.

Three, obviously sparring matches aren't the same as real fights. But in comics, they are often used to point out to readers how different characters match up in terms of skills.

Four, just because characters have said some silly things before doesn't mean everything they say is wrong. If we don't believe what they say, why should we believe what we see either? I take it as granted that what informed characters say is more or less the truth, because otherwise there's no reason to read comics. If you're saying straight out that it was a false statement--in effect calling PIS on a statement in the same way we call PIS on a visual feat--you need to a reason to say that. What data proves that he was making a false statement? If you want to look at some of those other statements, you can understand why the characters said them. Talking about Lady Shiva, for example, he's clearly talking about standard martial artists, and not bringing in metahumans or people from other time periods. At worst, those comments can be taken as general statements; maybe person X isn't the VERY best, but perhaps only ONE OF the best. Taken like this, the statements remain valid and useful. In this case, we can at the worst understand that Batman thinks Wonder Woman is one of the best melee fighters in the world. This statement on its own may not be enough to prove she can definitively beat him, but it sure does make it seem pretty reasonable that she can hang with him. All the sparring matches and fights I've seen between them more or less make them seem about equal in skill. Me, I've been giving a slight edge to her based on my own general impression. Heck, while discussing this I've seen more Batman/WW matches than I had before, and I'm honestly leaning more towards a draw now than I was before. If you go the other way, it's not like I can prove it to you, that's just your read on the hundreds of comics they've both been in. But my impression is that DC seems to think that Diana is at least of equal skill level as Batman, and that if they did ever magically put them in a situation where they fought like this, that Batman would not beat her.

1.Well you know,we need actual fight scans that indicate she has beaten people equally skilled to Batman to even match with him.Batman has over a ton of them and people tend to forget that.Anyone can say anything he wants to say.And IMO DC writers made Batman say that to make Wonder Woman sound more badass or something.And anyway even if we could take into considaration what he said about her,it's not like he said he couldn't beat her h2h,you know.Well,as I said, we can't rely on mere statements on battle forums.Batman has trained under a lot of masters around the globe and mastered more than 100 martial arts styles.If it's quantity that matters,Batman has more.

2.Dude,I never said Batman never loses.I said that h2h combat is his area and can't lose to anyone,just cause of foolish statements.I can point you 5 people who could beat Batman in h2h in DC alone for sure.And I am not talking about Lady Shiva and Cassandra Cain..........

3.Sparring matches are just training and nothing more.Everyone holds back during sparring.And even if they didn't,Wonder Woman is like an 100 tonner and Batman is like a 500 kilos or something.

4.Statements aren't always false.We just can't consider them feats without being backed up by evidence.Let me take an example.Deathstroke said Batman was the best adversairy he ever faced.This statement is valid cause DS had serious injuries which he commented that it will take weeks for him to heal and right after that right after the fight,he was beaten by a guy who was tied up and had mediocre h2h skill.You see the difference?Wonder Woman has never done anything indicating she is Batman's equal.

Now,you are free to believe what you will.But here it's what you can prove.I have feats suggesting Batman would beat five peak human Wonder Women and I am not joking.Hell,I have feats of Nightwing better than those of WW.

Honesty,I don't give a crap about what DC wants to point out about Wonder Woman and Batman.I only continue this cause you seem like a guy who understands things and is capable to set an arguement the right way.

#44 Edited by sandiego008 (3283 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger: This debate has gone on before

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/no-powers-batman-vs-wonder-woman-523706/?page=1

and as you can see top posters on this forum are split. At best you will get a stalemate.

#45 Posted by Owie (3616 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger said:

@owie said:

@stronger: I just want to clear up a few things. One, I'm not even vaguely a Wonder Woman fanboy, I think the character is OK, and I like her recent series, but otherwise she's not that special to me. So I'm only arguing based on my own perception, and nothing else. In the case of Wonder Woman, as I already said, there aren't a ton of H2H feats of this kind, so we need to look at the other evidence and analyze that to come up with our best sense of the situation. Me, I take into account all that stuff about her Amazonian training, because that's the evidence that we have. You don't. Fair enough.

Two, clearly Batman has a voluminous, consistent set of impressive hand-to-hand feats. I like Batman a lot more than I like Wonder Woman, and respect his abilities. That said, it's not like he never loses.

Three, obviously sparring matches aren't the same as real fights. But in comics, they are often used to point out to readers how different characters match up in terms of skills.

Four, just because characters have said some silly things before doesn't mean everything they say is wrong. If we don't believe what they say, why should we believe what we see either? I take it as granted that what informed characters say is more or less the truth, because otherwise there's no reason to read comics. If you're saying straight out that it was a false statement--in effect calling PIS on a statement in the same way we call PIS on a visual feat--you need to a reason to say that. What data proves that he was making a false statement? If you want to look at some of those other statements, you can understand why the characters said them. Talking about Lady Shiva, for example, he's clearly talking about standard martial artists, and not bringing in metahumans or people from other time periods. At worst, those comments can be taken as general statements; maybe person X isn't the VERY best, but perhaps only ONE OF the best. Taken like this, the statements remain valid and useful. In this case, we can at the worst understand that Batman thinks Wonder Woman is one of the best melee fighters in the world. This statement on its own may not be enough to prove she can definitively beat him, but it sure does make it seem pretty reasonable that she can hang with him. All the sparring matches and fights I've seen between them more or less make them seem about equal in skill. Me, I've been giving a slight edge to her based on my own general impression. Heck, while discussing this I've seen more Batman/WW matches than I had before, and I'm honestly leaning more towards a draw now than I was before. If you go the other way, it's not like I can prove it to you, that's just your read on the hundreds of comics they've both been in. But my impression is that DC seems to think that Diana is at least of equal skill level as Batman, and that if they did ever magically put them in a situation where they fought like this, that Batman would not beat her.

1.Well you know,we need actual fight scans that indicate she has beaten people equally skilled to Batman to even match with him.Batman has over a ton of them and people tend to forget that.Anyone can say anything he wants to say.And IMO DC writers made Batman say that to make Wonder Woman sound more badass or something.And anyway even if we could take into considaration what he said about her,it's not like he said he couldn't beat her h2h,you know.Well,as I said, we can't rely on mere statements on battle forums.Batman has trained under a lot of masters around the globe and mastered more than 100 martial arts styles.If it's quantity that matters,Batman has more.

2.Dude,I never said Batman never loses.I said that h2h combat is his area and can't lose to anyone,just cause of foolish statements.I can point you 5 people who could beat Batman in h2h in DC alone for sure.And I am not talking about Lady Shiva and Cassandra Cain..........

3.Sparring matches are just training and nothing more.Everyone holds back during sparring.And even if they didn't,Wonder Woman is like an 100 tonner and Batman is like a 500 kilos or something.

4.Statements aren't always false.We just can't consider them feats without being backed up by evidence.Let me take an example.Deathstroke said Batman was the best adversairy he ever faced.This statement is valid cause DS had serious injuries which he commented that it will take weeks for him to heal and right after that right after the fight,he was beaten by a guy who was tied up and had mediocre h2h skill.You see the difference?Wonder Woman has never done anything indicating she is Batman's equal.

Now,you are free to believe what you will.But here it's what you can prove.I have feats suggesting Batman would beat five peak human Wonder Women and I am not joking.Hell,I have feats of Nightwing better than those of WW.

Honesty,I don't give a crap about what DC wants to point out about Wonder Woman and Batman.I only continue this cause you seem like a guy who understands things and is capable to set an arguement the right way.

I understand what you're saying, and I can appreciate your points, I just come at it from a different angle. I don't think we're going to get any farther than this.

#46 Edited by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@sandiego008 said:

@stronger: This debate has gone on before

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/no-powers-batman-vs-wonder-woman-523706/?page=1

and as you can see top posters on this forum are split. At best you will get a stalemate.

Top posters don't know a thing about Batman or they are either Wonder Woman fanboys.....If you want it that way....

Honestly I don't give a crap about what top posters think.Nobody can prove to me that Wonder Woman is a top fighter.If you have a case to make,then make it. Featwise,I wouldn't place Wonder Woman even in the top 20.

@owie: Whatever you want my friend.....

#47 Posted by Owie (3616 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger said:

@sandiego008 said:

@stronger: This debate has gone on before

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/no-powers-batman-vs-wonder-woman-523706/?page=1

and as you can see top posters on this forum are split. At best you will get a stalemate.

Top posters don't know a thing about Batman or they are either Wonder Woman fanboys.....If you want it that way....

Honestly I don't give a crap about what top posters think.Nobody can prove to me that Wonder Woman is a top fighter.If you have a case to make,then make it. Featwise,I wouldn't place Wonder Woman even in the top 20.

@owie: Whatever you want my friend.....

I don't understand why you feel the need to devalue your actual points by trying to put people down with empty, inaccurate stuff like that ("Top posters don't know a thing about Batman or they are either Wonder Woman fanboys"). It just makes people less likely to think you want an actual conversation.

#48 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: I can't find any other excuse to their answers.....