Battle of the Week VOTING: Cyclops vs. Nightwing & Robin

Scott is significantly older than Nightwing and has appeared in nearly twice as many issues.

Current Nightwing is only like 22 years old according to the database here.

As I said, if pre-New 52 feats are applicable, then it's debatable. Grayson was around 8-10 years old when he began his intensive training and crime fighting with Batman (pre 52). And he continued his training and crime fighting well into his 20's.

this is really quite hilarious, a 9 year with no prep is going to get 1 shot, nightwing is not daredevil no matter how hard you all try to convince yourselves, daredevil is basically a precog, night wing is not... and no matter how you cut it, cylcops will never have the level of fanboyism that the batman and his family attract

Hmm... they only mention their gear, so it's debatable. I hope it isn't New 52 Nightwing, because I know none of his new feats :/

@surfingthehighway: lol Yeah, I'm kind of torn on which way his skill set is supposed to lie.

I don't know about getting 1-shot because he is quick and agile, and might use his gadgets while under cover. That being said, I just cannot (for some reason) imagine Damian fighting with Cyclops hand-to-hand. If he were 15 or older then maybe I'd buy it. But 9 YEARS OLD?

This is what Damian Wayne would look like:

Cyclops. The introvert leader of the Xmens is a battle tactician with an unmatched 3D spatial sense and an uncanny accuracy with a built-in weapon that can shatter a tank.
No chance for the two bat-guys. They will be knocked-out very fast.

Any good marksman can shoot someone out of the air yes. That is kind of my point, if they are going to be flipping around and jumping over things like they normally do, they are just going to get shot.

If they close into hand and hand, which is probably going to be their plan, as Nightwing is very talented in HtH, Scott is no slouch and also he could easily just shoot them in point blank range.

I give D&D a fair chance, they could pull out 3 or 4 out of 10.

we need the Cyclops crew to show up, too may batfanatics out today who as always prove immune to logic, no 9 year old is a factor in this fight, and no human can stand up to an optic blast

Yes. Clearly it is humanly impossible to dodge cyclops optic blasts. I mean when bullseye tried to dodge his shots he clearly failed.

IN all seriousness if you think one side wins thats fine, but this isn't a stomp....

Agreed

Agreed

@jashro44: Stop using examples that prove your point!

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!! WHY DONT U MAKE ME!!!!

@jashro44: I just realized how strong Bullseye must be to be able to lug around an adamantium skeleton with no physical powers and then be able to dodge optic blasts. Yowza

I really didn't want to get involved in this thread, but I feel like the dynamic duo of Dick Grayson and Damian Wayne is being underestimated. Heck, Nightwing alone would give Scott problems but add in Damian and Cyclops is going to have hell on his hands.

For starters, why do people keep using the logic that since Cyclops defeated Wolverine, he automatically defeats anyone you think less of? ABC logic doesnt work here for multiple reasons. One, there of two opponents this time around. Two, both have different fighting styles than Logan. Three, Both Dick and Damian are much more versatile than Logan and have various ways of taking Scott out. Four.... Know what? I'll stop there and get to the point.

Cyclops is going to have a much harder time keeping up with two opponents rather than one. Both are arguably more skilled than Scott and possess a great deal of cooperation. Also add in the fact that Dick is arguably more stealthy than Wolverine. (Yes I'm bringing him back up since that's the only person people like to bring up.) Dick has even snuck up on Bruce before, and Bruce is a character who tends to think very fondly of his environment.

Let's also factor in that neither side has knowledge of each other. In other words, Cyclops could actually predict Logan's movement to some degree. However, now he's dealing with two extremely acrobatic beings who aren't just going to sit there and soak damage. No. There going to dance around Cyclops throwing batatangs, shooting grappling hooks, throw flash grenades, etc. And he won't be prepared for a single thing. I mean seriously. Wouldn't some knockout has be sufficient enough?

And going back to what I said about neither side being knowledgeable about each other, Cyclops is going to be very hesitant in the battle. He's not going to go full visor or spam optic blast, no, he's going to not try and harm the kid or the guy he knows nothing about. However, from Dick and Damain's point of view, Cyclops might look like some lunatic spamming lasers and destroying property and will therefore see him as some sort of villain. (Ergo that wouldn't be to hesitant on taking him out.) I don't see why a quick staff to the face wouldn't take Cyclops out.

I see the duo of Dick and Damian taking this seven out of ten times in my opinion.

we need the Cyclops crew to show up, too may batfanatics out today who as always prove immune to logic, no 9 year old is a factor in this fight, and no human can stand up to an optic blast

@jashro44 said:

@killraven4334 said:

we need the Cyclops crew to show up, too may batfanatics out today who as always prove immune to logic, no 9 year old is a factor in this fight, and no human can stand up to an optic blast

Yes. Clearly it is humanly impossible to dodge cyclops optic blasts. I mean when bullseye tried to dodge his shots he clearly failed.

I got three letters for you. PIS

@nosoamazing: "You guys should really stop using ABC logic. I'm just gonna use it because you use it too".

I'm sorry, but there are some flaws in your argument, other than this failed attempt at logic.

Firstly, Scott is EXTREMELY well aware of his surrroundings. It is a cholateral part of his mutant ability. It has been stated by many viners that he just can't be snuck upon.

Secondly, I refuse to accept that a 9 year old is more skilled than the X-Men's only field leader. At most, Damian may have been training for 4 years (provided a 5 year old can actually grasp the concept of training, since Waynes' blood isn't magical). Scott has been training for at least 20 (in comic book years) half a day, every day. Not to mention the X-Men have the danger room, which prepares them for the gloomiest of situations (which include sentinels and meta-humans such as The Juggernaut, Omega Red or Magneto).

Don't get me wrong, Grayson is a heck of a fighter and acrobat, it is Damian who I consider is being totally overrated (most of his feats are complete PIS, like his fight with Deathstroke in Son of the Batman which was an absolute disaster).

Oh, and provided Cyclops can indeed tag them (I'm not certain he could) they'd be knocked out at the very first hit.

@surfingthehighway:

Wait. What? How am I using ABC logic? Heck, how is my logic flawed at all? You literally only picked out one flaw.

Dude it's a freaking comic. Real world logic doesn't apply. Damian was literally made to be a top notch assassin. He recalls climbing mountains after breaking his legs at only four! And what does having twenty plus years of training have to do with anything? Damian has simply been shown to be more skilled than Scott.

There are other ways to take Scott out, so stealth doesn't really mean much. It simply provides cover and hiding spots for the team. How is Damian overrated? It's just consistent with his character. And tell me when Cyclops starts blasting nine years olds with optic blast.

@nosoamazing: You said people should really stop comparing Nightwing and Wolverine and then went ahead and compared the two stating, and I quote: "Yes I'm bringing him back up since that's the only person people like to bring up".

That's just the thing with Damian, everything he does is ridiculous to my eyes... I would buy it all up if he were Superman's son, but seeing that he's not meta-human in anyway, I just have a hard time digesting it.

About Cyclops not firing his blasts at a kid, you'll notice that I didn't point that out as a flaw. I agree with that and doubt Cyclops would fire at him carelessly (I stated that same thing in the first page of this debate). I think he would eventually fire (after seeing what he's capable of) but with just enough force to knock him out.

I guess this isn't the fight for me. When it comes to Damian I just cannot suspend my disbelief. I feel people just accept what he does because he's Batman's son.

agreed, everything damian does is PIS, hes a fricken human 9 year old

@killraven4334: I'm new to this, so I'm not sure "PIS" is supposed to mean, but he's been consistently depicted as being a pretty bad ass little kid brought up to be the best killer in the world. I'm pretty "meh" on some stuff with Damien, but I'm not going to disregard his abilities when he's also fighting against a guy whose eyes are a portal to some sort of extra dimensional space.

any time a nine year old with no actual super powers or phsycial enhancements can fight grown men this is pure plot induced stupidity, it has no basis in the established universe and in the new 52 damanian is beating people he has absolutely no basis to beat, he has less than 10 years of life and at 9 years old is at best the physical equal of a preteen because he has not developed any muscle mass that comes with puberty. The only way damian can do what he does is based on plot, and the stupidity that comes with it. We accept an amount of fantasy because these are comics, but damian breaks even these down because he has no powers and we are to somehow invent reasons for a barely trained 9 year old to do the things he does simply because he is batmans son. This is plot stupidity at its worst. Basically when there is absolutely no believable reason for why a character can do the things he does, because even the accepted reasons of random powers, mutations, ect are not used, nor is extensive training, and the person in question is far inferior in skill and ability. At most damian has 5 years of training, and can maybe lift his own weight, which I doubt considering he hasn't hit puberty, without plot armor, he has nothing to fall back on, as he has no reason for any of his supposed feats to be seen as anything other than jobbing...

@killraven4334: Except that's how he's been consistently depicted in every appearance of his, near as I can tell. Not just in certain plots in specific storylines. It's not a one off deal and to ignore is doing a great disservice to the character.

The last vote I had to admit that, yes, Wolverine can indeed dodge optic blasts, as it's not a one time power he developed or an idiot ball that was given to Cyke. There's enough history there for me to go, "Yeah, that can happen," and just accept it. We simply can't pick and choose what abilities and skills to believe a character has based on our own perspective. If Damien were shown to be like this in only certain stories or under certain writers, there might be something there, but it's happened and we have to deal with it.

Bullseye is not the only human to ever dodge an optic blast so....

@jashro44: It really doesn't seem that hard to do, after looking around a bit. They move fast, but aren't lasers, and so don't move at the speed of light.

Well its been said a few times that they move at the speed of light. The problem could just be cyclops. All though its also been said the servers in his visor don't open up at light speed and that might allow other people to dodge it.

Really? huh I was under the impression that they move really fast, but not quite that speed. It could come down to the visor or him, yeah.

That scan is kinda PISy dude, I mean look at where the beams are hitting, there not even striking where Bullseye was before he dodged, it's like he wouldn't even need to dodge because the beams are just hitting next to him like Cyclops is trying to miss on purpose. Even when Bullseye is standing still to fire an arrow Cyclops is still hitting the floor near him, now I'm pretty sure a skilled marksman like Cyke could hit a dude when he's standing still.

Also has Bullseye any other agility feats to support this scan?

@lunacyde: Scott is really not that older than Dick. maybe 2 or at most 3 years age difference

@lensnart: While it is dubious that Bullseye could dodge that many blasts out in the open, he is the extremely agile. Still, I do agree that that particular instance is hard to accept.

@meatwadf: Yeah and something I just noticed look at the trajectories of the blasts where the heck is Cyclops shooting from haha

Sons of bat

@lensnart: As much as I am arguing against Cyke this time, I'm calling shenanigans on Bullseye there.

I think this will mostly be a battle of the tacticians. When i read Batman and Damien was alive he was pretty headstrong. He'll probably run out and try to beat cyclops in H2H and get a optic blast to the face. Then Cyclops and Nightwing will have a epic clash of plans and backup plans.

Edit: Does Nightwing even have the same tactical brilliance of his Pre 52 counterpart? If he doesn't Cyclops would probably set him in a postion where he couldn't possibly miss.

There is an actual explanation for that. When a marksman shoots at a really fast target you don't get good results by just shooting where they currently are. A skilled marksman can also anticipate where the target is, and shoot there. This is how punisher managed to shoot burn out for example who was a mach 2 speedster, and he was using pistol bullets IIRC which are slower than mach 2. Same concept applies here. Cyclops tried to shoot where he thought bullseye was going to move but he guessed wrongly. Anticipating where your target is going to end up is a key skill all marksmen have. This is why people like daredevil, wolverine, and spider-man just whiz through fodder, but have a harder time dodging sustained fire from cyclops, bullseye and punisher.

I wasn't trying to make a case that bullseye is super agile, but bullseye does have some good acrobatic feats and he is a bullet timer (in shadow land he deflected a bullet back at a shooters head with a pair of handcuffs). With that said my point is, the comment @killraven4334 made about how "no humans have a chance against an optic blast" is wrong. Bullseye isn't the only human being to ever dodge an optic blast. If you google around you can find scans of wolverine, daredevil, etc, and lots of folks reacting to an optic blast in some shape way and form. Hell even storm has dodged the blasts before:

Now admittedly it may seem like I am low balling cyclops at the moment, and admittedly I am, but the point I am trying to get across is that humans can and have dodged cyclops optic blasts in the past. to say nightwing has no chance is either overestimating cyclops, or underestimating nightwing, I assumed killraven was doing the former so I countered with some low balling.

I think cyclops is a great shot, I just don't think its impossible to dodge his optic blasts or avoid them. Not when other human beings have done that.

@jashro44: I concede to ur superior logic my friend, that does kinda put into context and ur right nightwing probably could dodge one or two blasts, but I still think that scan is a lil fishy, I mean he couldn't hit him when he was standing still! haha but I don't doubt nightwing's ability to dodge cykes blasts

@hushofthewind: Dick is said to be 22/23 in the New 52 universe (if I'm not mistaken).

With all the crap he's been through, Cykes must be at least 35.

That's basically my opinion on the matter. It's not exactly easy, but there's plenty of precedents of non-powered or low-powered individuals dodging it, and not in a crazy way like Bullseye there.

@lensnart @jashro44 : The hard thing about aiming with a gun or bow is that you have to keep your body upright, your weapon completely still, align the aims, and then deal with the recoil (this last point doesn't apply to bows or small firearms). That's why shooting is an international competition.

Cyclops, however, only has to look directly at something to hit it. And if he sustains his fire then there is absolutely no way for him to miss (the same way you can follow something that moves really fast with your sight). That's why I have a hard time imagining him missing a target, his shots do not require upper strength and move at almost the speed of light (which means they are way faster than any bullet or arrow). He should only miss if and when he wants to.

Comics have shown otherwise though. I don't know maybe there is recoil when he fires an optic blast. Cyclops has missed many times. He's a good shot but he isn't perfect.

That may be the case, but it's a common enough occurrence for him to miss. He should only miss if he wants to, but his history does show it's more than possible. That doesn't detract from the fact he is an amazing shot, and has been known to hit people around corners he is barely aware of, and plenty of other crazy go nuts feats. lol

@meatwadf: @jashro44:

I agree I have been arguing according to what I find logic, and not according to what we often see in comics. However, if Cyclops sustains his blasts (not to mention wide-angle blasts) then they should be near impossible to dodge. Also, if we go by comic-book feats, then I have to say neither Dick nor Damian have dodged something that moves at the speed of light. If we assume that the speed of light is, I don't know, 4 times as fast as a bullet, then dodging optic blasts is gonna be 4 times as hard to D&D, who don't know what they're dealing with and haven't dealt with anything like this before.

The speed of light is a lot faster than a bullet.

With that said they don't need to be faster than light to dodge an optic blast. They just need to be faster than cyclops aim.

@jashro44: The speed of light is a lot faster than a bullet.

With that said they don't need to be faster than light to dodge an optic blast. They just need to be faster than cyclops aim.

__________

Considering Cykes' aim is his sight them that should be really hard to pull off. I wouldn't say they can't because they are extremely quick, I just think they will be worn off, or make a bad move, and eventually get hit. Cykes beams are considerably faster than bullets and his "ammo" is almost infinite.

I'm on the fence to the outcome of this, but can anyone think of cyclop's answer to a two pronged stealth attack from two different directions, as good as cyke is, he can't shoot in too different directions at the same time

People overestimate the effectiveness of Cover in a battle against Cyclops. For one...his optic blasts can obliterate anything in the area Dick and Damian try to hide behind...Like so:

for another...he doesn't need line of sight to hit them...his innate spatial awareness makes it easy for him to pull off shots like these:

@shawnbaby: Cyclops "Hay look! A nine year old kid and a guy I know nothing about! *Full optic blast* It's good thing I have morals and would never do such a thing.... Wait a minute.

@shawnbaby: That was part of my belief about him beating Wolverine. The car Logan is behind is just another weapon. This time, however, I feel D&D's stealth would make it very hard (if not impossible in Damien's case) to find in the terrain.