Battle of the Week: Robin vs. Raphael

@comicstooge:

How is Alopex fighting fodder ninja all that impressive? Damian was doing that since infancy. If you wanna compare fodder, the fodder Damian fights know every fighting style on Earth, would've beaten a Talon (had they known it had a healing factor)

Show these characters using every fighting style on Earth in any given feat. The whole every fighting style on Earth thing really doesn't mean anything, without feats to back it. Alopex was fighting these ninjas completely blind folded, and the fodder you're speaking of, do not have feats to show they are above a foot soldier. Foot Soldier are bullet timers, and have been shown to have super speed.

Fighting Shredder isn't too praiseworthy. He literally let her get strikes in. Considering Damian has done similar against freaking Batman and also Dick Grayson I'd say that's a little more impressive.

Fighting Shredder isn't praiseworthy??? What????????????????

He didn't let her get strikes in, he allowed her to live for her brief spurt of rebellion. That is amazing impressive. On the other had, Batman was completely letting Damian take shots at him. Alopex's feat against Shredder should not be low balled.

And sure, catching up to vehicles is impressive, but they've also struggled to keep up with Foot Ninja on occasions, have they not? You're acting like the Turtles are all Spiderman, when their physicals are hardly above enhanced human range and nothing Damian hasn't seen before.

That just shows that the humans in the IDW universe are generally above what is seen in DC, it does not take away from other characters. Also, the turtle's are more similar to Spider-Man, then they are a normal human. In fact, they are very comparable to classic Spider-Man.

Here's some Spider-Man level acrobatics and jumping strength:

Damian's not pulling off something that would take even a fraction of this much strength.

Or how about pushing over a gigantic statue with only three of the turtle's pushing.

Go back and look at the bottom of the scan, where you can see how tiny the turtles are in comparison to the stone statue. This is easily all of a 50 ton statue, and only three of them were pushing.

And I'd love to see Damian do something even close to this:

Throwing a foot soldier through a very tall window, across a very long distance, and the body only stops moving because it hits Shredder. This is well beyond hardly enhanced.

In any case, Casey Jones was also dodging lazers. From that, you get a sense that a normal human can keep up with the Turtles.

That's a good feat for Casey Jones, doesn't mean that it's a bad feat for the turtles. Yet, Damian doesn't have feats consistent with this, where the Turtles have a huge amount of them and it took them 10 times less issue appearances to get more and better feats then Damian.

For the record, the arrow in question was from a Talon and he caught it while not even looking it nor paying attention (he was focused on the soldiers and their strategy) :

Then provide some feats for this nameless Talon if that compares to Karai. I'm not saying he doesn't have feats, but I'd like to see them if there is anything even noteworthy about saying a Talon did it.

Here's what Karai can do with an arrow:

Karai

Archery

Gallery

• Here she is able to shoot a phone out of a hand from a mile away before landing a kill shot. This is archery that rivals Green Arrow and Hawkeye!

Gallery

• Fighting Leo and Raph on top of two vehicles moving at high speeds. She kicks Raph in mid-air, and follows up by shooting an arrow to take out April's van's tires.
• This is also a nice skill feat for Raph too, showing him possuming by allowing Karai to kick him, and let him throw a tracer mounted shuriken, all while Karai thinks it's part of his fighting. He also does this while jumping between two high speed vehicles.

• Karai uses an arrow to get the turtle's attention. Her incredible accuracy lets her put an arrow right next to Donny's head without actually hitting his head.

• Shoots a tranquilizer dart into the back of Leo's neck. This small spot is the only spot where the dart could penetrate Leo's skin when shooting from behind him (because of the shell).

• Karai shoots an arrow into Donny's Gravity Gauntlet destroying it.

• Karai does an acrobatic flip to dodge arrows while returning kill shots with her own bow at the same time.

That's just a few feats for Karai, there are more of her all shooting with perfect accuracy, but here's what happens when she shoots multiple arrows in the same shot at Raph and Leo.

They slice up every arrow shot, and Raph even tanks one by twisting his body after the arrows are in mid-flight to put his shell into one of them. Dodging nameless characters =/= dodging highly skilled marksman.

But that's not the only marksman he's dodged. He's even dodged none other then the Ghostbusters. And while they may not seem like the greatest of marksman, they've come a long ways since their first catch of Slimer. They've taken down every manner of ghost and spiritual being you can think of with proton packs, yet Raph is diving between the streams.

To top it off, he has the insane speed, to dive in front of Splinter, when the insanely strong superhuman Bebop throws a piece of granite at Splinter, after it's already been thrown, and the brick is only inches from Splinter's head. His speed is enough to push Splinter out of the way before he gets hit. This is a speed I have yet to see Damian match.

Raph can get thrown hundreds of feet and survive (he landed in a chicken coop which you could argue broke his fall) and get put through steel doors?

You have any idea how flimsy chicken wire is, and a thin wood backing needed to hold it up? You really think that chicken wire saved their lives? Come on man. There's no way to downplay this feat, without it being simply low balling. It's not like this is an exceptional feat for Raph, he consistently tanks this type of damage throughout the entire series, heck all the turtles do.

Just look at Bebop and Rocksteady

For fun they collapse giant multistory buildings....from the inside....all while laughing about it.

They also have the strength to KO a human with a playful flick of the finger, and send someone flying hundreds of feet, through several walls, and finally through the entire building with a playful punch that was not even meant to hurt the guy.

Throw characters hundreds of feet through the air with ease.

Yet look what happens when Rocksteady takes a full swing at Raph with a sledge hammer!

Nothing. Seriously nothing. He's right back in it. He even goes onto fight Dark Leo immediately after this happens, and wins! If you still think Damian's punches are going to do anything, then I don't know what to say after this.

But that's not all. He's even tanked attacks from Slash, who is a giant mutated slashing turtle, who left claw marks in April's van big enough that it covers half of her can.

The guy has the strength to one-hit KO the superhuman Hun:

Which Hun is able to tank attacks that lift him several feet in the air from a home run swing from a base ball bat with zero injury.

Or having a base ball bat break on you because it was swung so hard, yet taking no damage at all, same with escrima sticks to the sensitive area behind knees.

Even rifle bullets and a sucker spear to the back.

Yet one punch from Slash is an instant KO on him. Which is not hard to believe as Slash can easily knock gigantic holes into thick steel walls with nothing but his head.

Even though Slash has an immense amount of super strength, and claws that can slash through steel, Raph tanks his attacks.

And even gets back up, just before having Donnie thrown at him from across the room.

He's only slow getting back up for a second, but then is right back into the attack, and even dodging attacks.

So I REALLY don't see how Damian's strength is enough to do really anything here.

I'll give you a challenge. Find a feat of Raph being hurt by someone with Damien's strength. I'll wait. In fact, I'll wait a very long time, because I've read these comics so many times now, and have never seen it happen, that's why I know Damien can't do it.

He doesn't need to hold his breath, considering Damian carries a gasmask as standard. Given the thickness and area the smoke spread over and the fact Damian would be attacking him while he's blind, I'd say Raph would have trouble navigating through it, while Damian will have no issue.

Does he carry one as standard? Because I've never seen a single scan of him wearing a gas mask. I'm sure he has used one, but it's probably been few and far between, few and far between isn't quite standard equipment. Or is it stated that it's standard somewhere? I've also only seen him use gas like once or twice anyways. It doesn't seem like a go to move for him.

Raph might be able to tank a few exploding pellets, but lucky for Damian, he has plenty.

Raph can tank plenty of those, but he can just dodge them all day long too. To my knowledge, Damian doesn't have any impressive throwing feats, so there is no reason to think he would ever tag Raph.

Nothing I saw from Raph or Alopex indicates that much skill. Fighting Rocksteady or Mousers or a gang of thugs is nothing like fighting Damian. The only character worth mentioning that Raph has beat is Aloplex and her best combat feat is beating fodder and hitting a guy who was laughing off her every attack and stomped her the minute he started trying. He's not more skilled than Damian, let alone Jason.

I haven't really seen anything that screams skill for Damian besides a few name dropping feats, without any real substance to them, as compared to Raph actually knocking out a skilled character with super human stats.

But Raph has fought and got the better of Shredder with his brothers and even delivered the final superhuman kick to end the fight.

While sure, the fight ends here, and Raph had help, and Shredder would probably have shown him what he's about after this if it didn't end, but I can't even imagine Damian even being alive at this part of the fight while trying to fight against Shredder. I also don't see a kick from Damian causing a body to fly into a wall and leave a crater mark.

And Raph has also beat Dark Leo handily. While Dark Leo was never quite as dangerous as morals on Leo, he still was more skilled and had better stats then Damian, yet Raph beat him.

Not only that, but Damian doesn't need extra lives to instantaneously pick up techniques (not only that, but the move he was learning is more advanced than any move known by anyone in TMNT):

Since when is training longer a bad thing? Especially when it is under the tutelage of Splinter. Come on now, no need to low ball. Training is really not that big of a deal when it comes to feats anyways, as it's not a feat, it's just training. If the training is not put to use, it doesn't really mean anything. It needs to be backed up by feats in combat to really hold much water.

In terms of agility, I did not see Raph run on any walls. Just because one Turtle has shown something, that doesn't mean they can all do it. In comparison, Damian can fight entire groups without hitting the ground:

Because of one single scan of Raph laser dodging, but not being on the wall, you think his feats are less? What about the other dozen scans of him showing better reaction times then Damian? While the jumping on heads is pretty cool, and definitely shows some athleticism, I don't see that being very applicable to a fight with anyone with even a tiny bit of skill, and actually shows Damian's recklessness. How does jumping on heads benefit him? Raph could just grab someone trying to jump on his head like that, and throw him with his superhuman strength like so:

Or like this:

Or maybe like this:

Damian's just a little guy too. I bet Raph could chuck him pretty far.

I actually doubt Raph would be throwing him, this was before Raph's ninja training was ingrained in him again, but it still shows that jumping into Raph's grasp is a very bad idea. If Raph gets a chance to test Damian's strength, it's an instant game over. The more likely scenario would be Raph simply KO'ing him instead.

I seriously don't see Damian taking any wins here. The gap in physicals is just way too much, and I still have yet to see Damian beat a character with the skill of Raph. I haven't even seen Damian beat a character with lesser physicals, but similar skill as Raph. Raph should take this 10/10 IMHO, after seeing what's been shown so far.

Raph wins this I think, probably 6/10, but he could get to a 7. I think that the turtle is on a par with Damian in both skill in combat and arrogance but the strength level of then mutant s not enough to give him the win either. We have seen Damian beat stronger opponents and to a 10 year old boy, most opponents would be stronger to certain degree. Damian is skilled at evading attacks just as Raphael is, the turtle's big advantage in this fight i believe is durability. The natural armour that the turtles are blessed with makes it easier for them to fight as there are large areas of their bodies that can take any punishment attackers can give out. This allows them to focus less on defence and more on attack.

On top of the durability, Raph also has more training due to the fact that he is 5 or 6 years older than Damian, although if the quantity of training is more value than the quality of it, and who has recieved the more quality training is hard to say as both Splinter and the al Ghuls and Batman would all be providing excellent tutelage.

@tparks: Nice argument, filled every hole there. Near the end when you talk about the pointlessness of Robin trying to run on Raph's head I honestly saw Raph doing to Damian what Hulk did to Loki(puny bird) or just putting him over his knee and giving him a good spanking. I often think the Turtles physical stats and skills are underrated, they are seriously baddass and should be way to much for any street level fighter to handle. When it comes down to it I see Raph as the Heretic (similar size and durability but way more skill) Damian has shown he doesn't go down without a fight but it is still futile. Maybe the fight should have been Heretic(technically it is still Damian) against Raph.

Lol! :D

;)

lmao

@tearofthedragon:

Yeah, if the Turtles are almost as powerful as Spider-Man this should have been a fight between Heretic and Raphael or Raphael and Damian in the suit he wore during Inc -

I love how people say silly things like "Raphbhas shown me little to no skill" when he was trained by Splinter since a baby in various Martial Arts, and drawn with great acrobatics wih his attacks. Yeah, no skill on Damien's level even though Damien has done exactly the same.

Raphael.

@randomsid: @sightlessreality: I know it isn't the same but there was this scene from a movie(Don't remember the name) in which a person jumped and rolled over the other person and took his two guns which were attached to his pants(Kind of like the way cowboys attach theirs).When I read this article, I was thinking of a situation and this scene came to my mind and I knew that Robin could pull this off.

@maxschreck said:

@tearofthedragon:

Yeah, if the Turtles are almost as powerful as Spider-Man this should have been a fight between Heretic and Raphael or Raphael and Damian in the suit he wore during Inc -

They aren't almost as powerful as Spider-Man. They're clearly above human, but there's a pretty big gap between humans and Spider-Man.

@k4tzm4n: I haven't actually said they are, that was someone else. I would put them nearer Cap but maybe a little stronger. But definitely too much for Damian when combined with their skill and experience.

It's close, but I think that this fight goes to Raphael. He trumps Robin on physical stats (though I feel as though some people may be exaggerating his capabilities) and is at least on par with his skill, if not better. Robin is better equipped and likely smarter and a better tactician, but people are discounting some of Raph's gear. He's been shown to carry shuriken and other throwing weapons, making the separation they start at less of a factor. Can Raph hit Robin? Probably not. But, he can put enough pressure on him to close the distance, where he can hit him.

Both characters are used to fighting as a team, but both also have experience at lone combat particularly given that this is IDW Raphael who was separated from his brothers for a considerable amount of time in the beginning. I feel, in general, Damian fights lower-tier foes in terms of skill, while Raph is more used to fighting higher level combatants. Where Raph is fighting the Foot, Damian's beating up simple thugs, the likes of which the Foot have been shown to be able to stomp. This doesn't diminish Damian's capabilities, but it does make Raph more used to tougher foes.

So, as I said, Raphael takes this fight, but not easily. He'd probably start off going easy on Damian until the kid did something to prove that he shouldn't and then it would devolve into something of a brawl with Damian liking trying to break contact and Raphael doggedly pursuing.

I was responding to their post, not yours ;)

No, Mirage doesn't count. Different continuity.

Thanks, but the credit goes to the community. I had a poll with 10 suggestions and more than 50% sided with Raph!

Raphael has the slim advantage. Damian will do what he has to do to win, but I feel like Raphael is naturally more aggressive. Damian and Raphael both have a lot of experience, and have both been trained since babies, but Raphael is older and is still being trained. So that means that he has more experience.

Raphael is also more durable due to his healing factor. The healing factor is not very strong, but it has to be useful for something. In the end Raphael has better overall stats than Damian Wayne. Raphael wins 7.5/10.

Please do Emiko Queen ._.

@k4tzm4n: My apologies. It's funny, I voted for Raph as I really wanted to see a turtle in the battles section but I do think it is a bit of a mismatch.

I feel pretty comfortable saying Raphael will win an H2H fight. I see his stats as being somewhat superhuman. Someone earlier described them as being about (classic) Deathstroke level, and I think that's about right. Maybe a 1 tonner, with agility that is very impressive but isn't necessarily anything that hasn't been matched by very agile humans like Daredevil or Captain America. I think his durability is where he really has an advantage. I don't buy that he can't be hurt by human strikes, but he can certainly tank hits that are superhuman, so Damian would really have to work to hurt him. Damian's only real shot is his tech. And this is where the battle gets difficult to decide.

They're 100 feet apart. They could go stealth-mode right away, and both of them would be pretty good at it. But would they actually do that? They both see an odd opponent. A turtle and a kid. I'm not sure, given their mutual impatience, that they wouldn't just rush in anyway. Damian could throw some bombs/gas/etc at him, but he's kind of arrogant, he may just try to take him on in H2H right off the bat. In which case he'll find he's at a disadvantage.

So Damian may break off at that point and try to get some distance and go for his tech then. He is a pretty strategic guy when necessary, and definitely smarter than Raphael. But by then it may be too late. Raph has fought a lot of opponents with tech before, so he has the chance to dodge it and or just deal with the hits. Damian could certainly eke out some wins at this point but I think Raph will probably take a reasonable majority.

Having just said all that, I want to add a couple scans to give context.

First, Raphael's durability and other physicals do not put him totally out of Damian's reach. Here he is caught by a handful of Foot ninjas without a lot of trouble.

(I can also post some scans of Damian being caught by some streetlevel fodder and thrown in the back of an ambulance in almost the exact same way, by the way. I'm not posting this to lowball Raphael, just to show that he is not out of reach to fight normal humans.)

But then again right after that he breaks out of his ropes, kicks out the ambulance door, and jumps a huge distance down into some water without being hurt. All of which is beyond normal humans, even comic humans, I would say. So this sequence, taken all together, gives some highs and lows to his superhuman qualities.

Also, as I was searching through my Damian issues, I came across this, which hasn't been posted yet. I think it shows a nice level of skill and agility, despite having just gone through some pretty harrowing stuff (having his body taken over by Talia and Deathstroke, being under the influence of Joker poison, and having been beaten up by a bunch of dudes and thrown in back of the aforementioned ambulance). He catches an arrow, selectively targets an arrow into a guy's hand, dodges a flamethrower, and shoots an arrow in its tank while flipping backwards.

So anyway...it would be a decent fight. A lot of it balances on when Damian would try to use his gear.

I'm not sure, given their mutual impatience, that they wouldn't just rush in anyway. Damian could throw some bombs/gas/etc at him, but he's kind of arrogant, he may just try to take him on in H2H right off the bat. In which case he'll find he's at a disadvantage.

A lot of people seem to forget that rushing into battle without thinking is something Damian only did when he was beginning as Robin in the old continuity. He quickly learned to be more cunning. A good example of this is an issue of Superman/Batman in which he allows himself to be captured by Killer Croc, just to get a good opportunity to catch him off guard. More recently he has been depicted as someone who fights quite tactical when facing stonger opponents. Even before Batman trained him he took on Man-Bats enhanced with Venom and won ( Batman and Robin #0). In the second Batman and Robin Annual Bruce learns that Damian managed to defeat Tusk, a super strong villain that gave him quite a beating during his first fight with him (, sadly its not shown how he did it). And in Secret Origins #4 he was again shown battling Killer Croc, and this time defeated him only using a taser.

If Damian is outclassed in close combat or can´t take out Raphael with explosives and batarangs he´ll change his tactic. Perhaps he will use the fact that he is a kid to get the Ninja Turtle to drop his guard, which would give Damian an opportunity to use knock out gas or the technique he learned from Nobody in Batman and Robin.

@tearofthedragon: Thanks!

I don't have time for a full-blown post, but I'll try to get my point across as well as possible:

The main reason this is a good fight, is Raphael is NOT going to go full bore on a kid. He'll slowly ramp up, but he'll never go all out. That is something that could cost him. The only thing that makes Raph unique against the various metas and mutants that Damian has fought is the combination of his physicals with his skill. Now while Raph isn't as skilled a fighter as Leo, he is as good a fighter because he makes up for it with a focused rage coupled with greater physicality.

Now neither's tactics are unique to the other. Damian and Raph are both ninjas, and a majority of Damian's gear from batarangs to smoke bombs are nothing special to Raph and nothing he hasn't encountered from skilled superhuman ninjas. Now before someone says the whole "Damian fodderizes ninjas" thing, Raph does too...but none of the named characters in the TMNT-verse are jobbers. There are no Killer Crocs or Man-Bats. All are legit threats, and capable fighters from Karai to Alopex to Shredder. While Damian is stealthier than Raph, Raph's own stealth is commendable.

Gear obviously is an advantage to Damian, and if he quickly goes to something like sleeping gas an argument could be made from him ending the fight quickly. As stated above though, I don't see most of Damian's gear being too much more than a fleeting distraction.

Physicals obviously go to Raph, but Damian does have commendable and even comparable speed to the superhuman turtle.

Mindset is important here because both have flaws. Damian is prone to ego and taunting, which can cost him the fight, and Raph can be prone to fits of rage making him sloppy (although he's gotten better at focusing that rage, it stills happens occasionally). But then there's the factor of Damian being a kid, which buys him time during the fight to take Raph out before he really turns up the volume against Damian some and actually goes for a win and not just avoiding hurting the kid.

It's closer than it would seem, but I'd give Raph 6-7/10 in an interesting mix of ninja tactics and furious fisticuffs.

Interesting. Why do you say that?

I think he's trying to get comment of the week. :P

LOL. Probably.

Damnnn!!!!! Dope match but Raphael takes this one. Raphael is more skilled and experienced then Robin.

Robin vs. Raphael. Were it any OTHER Robin, I would back my man Raph any day. Raphael is not so much as a superhero but a warrior and unlike the more namby pamby Robins such as Dick Grayson, Tim Drake, or Steph Brown; he has and is far more willing to kill. And he has the physical skills to do so as well.

Jason Todd has the killer mojo working for him, but he seems to rely more on technology like guns and explosives to do his dirty work and I feel that Raph would be able to overcome him when it got down to hand-to-hand combat.

On the other hand, Damian is far more violent and brutal than Grayson, Drake, or Brown and trumps Todd in skill and cunning. But can he overcome a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle? Particularly the Master of the Sais and Sarcasm? I think that he has a better than decent chance.

I do think that this is a great match-up with similar skills and ruthlessness in both characters! For myself, I have always felt that in many of these match-ups; people seem to underestimate that some characters are always a bit more vicious, a bit more willing to go the extra mile which compensates for say a lack of raw power or skill as unlike their opponent, the more ruthless individual would be more willing to go for a more lethal or aggressive blow.

Were another TMNT facing Damien like Michelangelo or Donatello; I feel that they would underestimate him too much and would be annihilated before they could recover. Leonardo is iffy, but I think his sense of honor would be his downfall as Damian would take advantage of it.

Physically, I think Raphael dominates. He's stronger and has the reach advantage. Speed, I'm not sure which would be superior but I'm betting they're close. Finally, durability is something up in the air. The Turtles seem to be at least bulletproof on their shells and Damian is doubtless wearing some sort of kevlar and body armor; but as far as impact or knife proof? I think Damian's armor probably falls short there.

Next comes to skills. Again, they come close. Both were trained from childhood in combat. I think were it come down it; Raphael would exceed Damian in certain aspects in ninjitsu where Damian would be better and more broadly trained in a wider variety of skills like parachuting, deep sea diving, etc.; Damian would also be trained in a wider variety of hand-to-hand combat skills than Raph. Damian is trained on how to negate his disadvantages of size and proportionate strength and has gone up against metahumans to boot. I think that in this case; Raphael's physical superiority and experience would ultimately prove triumphant where it come down to a case of pure skill.

However, I think that Raphael has a number of disadvantages that Damian does not. First off, Raphael's weapons of choice; the sai are rather range limited unless he throws them. Then he's unarmed, so it's a last-ditch sort of tactic.

Damian has a utility belt and is armed with a number of throwing projectiles and weapons so he has a distance advantage. Next off, due to the fact that Raph tends to stay mostly underground in the sewers and stuff; I'm assuming that he is not as well equipped or knowledgeable about the environment above ground. Damian strikes me as the sort who is quite willing to hotwire a car and run his opponent down if he could do so; likewise he might turn a car into a firebomb.

Finally and most damning of all is Raphael's temper. He is the sort to lose his cool in the middle of battle particularly if egged on by Damian who will exploit this to the fullest. Against perhaps the most cunning and most vicious Robin of them all along with his skills? I'm afraid that Raphael is Turtle Soup.

WINNER: DAMIAN WAYNE!

IDW Turtles have strength and durability stats that would put them above peak human and into superhuman territory. That combined with skill and speed and I'm going to have to say Raph.

This is what came to my imagination when thinking about this fight.

[Raphael and Damian are already fighting]

Damian: You've got nice moves for a Turtle. Were you trained by somebody?

Raphael: Yeah by a master named Splinter.

Damian: Oh you mean the rat my master Batman just killed using his Bat-mouse trap.

Raphael: What?

Damian: Yeah I remember his last words being, "Please...don't make...my boys...turtle soup."

Raphael: NOOOO! [Stabs Damian in the heart with sai].

[Later Batman comes searching for his son and finds that Raphael has him impaled on both sai, and is rotating his corpse over a fire.]

Raphael: Mmmmmmm who knew rotisserie Robin could smell so good.

@tparks: I don't need a highlighted argument of the week when I can just post my argument in the comments like the Kool Kat I am. :P

Also you are doing a terrific job defending the tmnt. I think raphs got this.

Please guys, Raphael is NOT on Spidermans level, that's ridiculous. And as for this being a mismatch, I'm actually very tempted to vote too close to call for the first time.

There's little to no speed difference, Raph obviously has the strength and durability edge (but the durability advantage is not as much as some people think) and I would say Damian should have a slight skill advantage. Throw in Damians tech and definite tactical superiority and you've got a very close fight on your hands.

I don't think stealth will come in to play much considering how hot-headed and insulting they both are in a fight so the gaps going to be closed pretty quickly with Damian realizing during the fight that he's going to need to use some tech to make up for the strength advantage.

Without Leo or Donny to give direction, Raph is gonna be constantly trying to bring the fight in close and probably just dodging gear that gets thrown without trying to counter it tactically. This works fine for batarangs, and smoke grenades won't really affect him, but a flashbang or knock out grenade at the right time could be enough to give Damian a winning opening. Obviously he won't get caught out often by these projectiles, it's nothing he hasn't deal with before and for the 1 or 2 wins this might bring Damian, Raphaels strength and size would make up for it.

So I can't think what would seperate the two enough for one of them to claim a majority. Too close to call. Great match @k4tzm4n

Voting closes tomorrow. If you haven't voted, get on that. If you want to make sure a character wins, work to make it happen!

Please guys, Raphael is NOT on Spidermans level, that's ridiculous.

Yeah, the Scan Owie posted demonstrates pretty well that he is at best slightly above street level. I am glad this was made clear before voting closes, even though its not going to help Damian at this point.

So who will he fight next? While I love the character I don´t think he should face Emiko Queen next, she is too similar to Hit-Girl and hasn´t demonstrated any feats indicate that she could outclass Damian in combat as far as I remember.

A more interesting fight could be Damian vs Hawkeye, espacially since Damian is pretty good at fighting with bow and arrow himself.

Since when was slightly superhuman above street level?

Street level means that a character deals with and is threatened by things and people that operate in street level situations. Gangs, mobs, soldiers, and terrorists. Essentially; if the things that normal criminals can get access to can hurt and kill a character if they connect, then the character is street level.

The weapons and tools available in Marvel NYC make Spiderman street level, but a high street level.

Wolverine cannot die because of his HF, but he can still be seriously hurt by weapons that normal human criminals can purchase and build in Marvel.

The turtles' repeated problems and injuries from human characters like Shredder and Karai make it clear that they are street level by many definitions.

I voted for Robin. After reading many good arguments (in particular @snowymountain), I think Damian takes this due to his gagdet advantage, and his skills being more varried, as well as the psychological aspect. Only by a slight majority though, 6/10.

Thanks, I really should have written slightly superhuman instead above street level if your definition is correct.

@maxschreck: but Raphael wins for the above reasons.

Only 3 pages for a Bat character and a Ninja Turtle?

I guess if people aren't arguing about the definition of planet busting there's not much to talk about :)

Yeah, we went with this because it received the most support, by far, in the poll, but the turnout has been very disappointing.

Yeah, I continue to be mystified week to week with what is a popular debate and what isn't. I think it has to do with the number of high-end feats within a particular power level, and the range of their strategic options; that way people can argue endlessly about whether feat X would defeat character Y for sure, or whether feat X is in fact not valid at all. OK, then maybe feat Z, and so on. There are specific points whose efficacy and legitimacy can be debated. Here, the two of them are basically upper-mid-range fighters so there's not a lot of "this feat or set of skills clearly shows they're a winner"/"no you're totally wrong this shows why the other guy must be the winner" kind of stuff. They both have the capacity to win after a long fight, so it mostly comes down to a judgement call on their skills and character. Which doesn't mean it's not a good battle, it just doesn't get the back-and-forth arguments I guess. Too bad though.

That makes a lot of sense....hmmm.

I wonder if battles involving higher tier characters would tend to be busier on average for that very reason?

Only 3 pages? 0_o No more ninja turtles.

There's not really much to debate. :/

I think a lot of people voted for Raph to be in this match, who have not read the IDW series, but just think Ninja Turtles are cool from the cartoons and movies. It's a pretty easy win for Raph.

I kind of saw this coming, which is why I voted for Young Cyclops. Young Scott would win too, but I think there would be a little more to debate, assuming Damian has many ranged projectile dodging feats. Young Scott is kind of becoming a BA in his new ongoing though. I never thought I would get as into an X-Men comic as much as I am right now, although it's really more of a Star Jammers comic then an X-Men comic.

Raphael takes this 6 or 7 out 10 times.

@senglord:

Does he? No offense, but the Turtles power level seems to be really inconsistent. When I asked a friend who has read all the IDW Turtles comics who would win in this fight he sided with Damian right away, which surprised me since he really does not like the character. So the scan I talked about earlier is probably not the only one that proves that Damian has a good chance of winning this.

@tparks: Why do you think it's an easy win for Raph?

@k4tzm4n: Damien was introduced in 2006 and killed in 2013. The IDW series is as popular and loved because the title has a wide focus on all the characters. This is why characters that only appear on teams have few high end feats for battle threads*.

A character with 2-3 solo titles will have more high feats to compare with other opponents.

This assumes the two characters are on the same level.

Then again, Street level battles reach a decision after a page or two then flare up when a run includes feats that change the balance.

High tier battles are really an endless flame war over the validity of powersets and the most insane feats put on panel.

Mid tier fights are the ones that would be most dynamic. The powers would be front and center. There would be a more nuanced argument and debate, as both would have many instances of being dropped by weaker opponents without plot.

Raph has better strength, speed, durability, reaction times, skill, and has beaten better opponents. This is by a very significant margin too. He outclasses Damian way more then people thought Damian outclassed Hitgirl last week.

Damian would kill him.