Battle of the Week: Lady Shiva vs. X-23

Its Paige a WWE wrestler.

@wardog2alpha:

It is pretty awesome huh... I pay the 69.99 yearly fee and save myself about 40 dollars... the only ones I can't seem to find so far are some Incredible hulk one's

see thats my point...

No, because Cassandra is a product of David Cain's philosophy of 'genes+selective training=best living weapon'. And it worked, because it was his (one of the deadliest assasins around) and Shiva's genes and his selective training. Laura otoh was only half Logan's genetic material and had to make do with a sensei no one has never heard of.

Laura had it worse because the Facility actively tried to keep her inhuman and unfeeling, by adding Kimura, the trigger scent and that thing with the puppy.

Also, you are lising Laura against people who rely heavily on a metahuman ability just to keep them going while they tend to hack and stab away at whatever they happen to be fighting till it stops moving.

Meanwhile I am still wating for Laura to be put up against an opponent that isn't just relying on being insanely durable to prove how good she actually is at martial arts. Besides the point of the scan was to show how Shiva could get an incapacitating blow in against an opponent that happens to fight in a similar fashion as Laura.

I would like you to prove the bolded part, because as I recall, the only time Steve and Laura have ever come to blows was ended immediately when he jumped out of a helicopter and landed shield first on top of her. Secondly, I dont recall any of the 'Logans' being mentioned as stronger than Steve to any meaningful amount. Logan is stronger because of the adamantium he has to carry around, but the others are not.

And the big problem there is that Deathstroke, for all his boosts and physical edges, is barely above Batman when it comes to skill (which he has admitted to himself) Shiva is above Batman by a good margin.

And again, being a martial artist (in comics) often means the user is able to overcome most standard metahuman abilites through them either to incapacitate the adversary by either avoiding their attacks, throwing them or simply knowing when and where to strike. Laura has yet to over come Kimura and her low level of superhuman strength and invulnurability without resorting to the enviroment, hence why the vast majority of their fights has ended up like this:

And when push comes to shove, would you serious back Kimura if she was faced with someone like Iron Fist or Shang-Chi... because thats the kind of level Shiva is on.

@serrure: DON'T LET MY AVY FOOL YOU!! I AM A THREAT!!

@god_spawn: right

@serrure:

OH IT'S ON!

@god_spawn: stupid school deciding to block some stuff and not block others... oh well

he really took it to those tree's didnt he

@serrure:

See they were under the influence of pheromones. But I wonder how Remy felt about this?

@outside_85:

the scan you posted,, you kind of forgot to post the rest... x23 was fighting many people and snuck up on her and she cut her hand off and beat her in the next issue.... btw kimura has unbreakable skin and low level super which shiva is not,, and kimura is also x23's handler so she knows her extremely well...kimura hits harder too...

@nukea6:

Because Gorilla Grodd is a master martial artist, right? It was pretty clear that Lady Shiva wasn't herself in Superman/Batman #3. Batman even says it. Based on the fact, she scared off Croc with one hand and defeated a hi-tech cyborg ninja with just Escrima sticks put her at a level above Batman.

What? Gorila Grodd martial artist? What? You misunderstood my point. Shiva still had her skills and stats as Batman himself (you know, the guy who fought her) stated. How dos your opinion change that? She scared of Killer Croc with one hand? Hmm, well, let's just forget that Croc is a huge jobber, but if we go by that way, then Bats has one-shotted Croc. Bruce one-shotted a huge robot made out of metal as well. BTW, what feats does Bronze Tiger have other than hype?

Hell, Batman had to run and use gadgets to fight Cassandra Cain when they were affected by a drug that made them bloodlusted. Cassandra had no trouble defeating him and Shiva always gives her a good fight. Bronze Tiger, a martial artist Bats has never beaten, acknowledges Shiva as his superior.

So that makes her Bruce's superior? Well, if that's so, then time for some ABC logic: Karate Kid (this is someone's H2H skills who far exceeds that of Shiva's) aknowledged Bruce as skilled and he wanted to teach from him, therefore Bruce is automatically Lady Shiva's superior due to a massive chunk of the great thing called: ABC logic.

Batman has created his own styles and he reckognizes any style he sees. He has been trained in some techniques which makes him a top tier and maybe superior to Shiva. Such as this (from Gotham Knight White And Black #1):

He did it with his bare foot, BTW. The tree-busting kicks are out of skill and not strenght. This instance pretty much confirms it.

@god_spawn: ehh Rogue is still allot better than Emma

Gallery

even when she was alive Cycke was cheating on her

total buster if you ask me

Actually, Tim Drake is the smartest of all Robins, even Batman himself stated that he will eventually surpass him.

And Tim's wins over Lady Shiva involve prep...he beat her once when he injected himself with a speed-enhancing drugg that, according to himself, made everything else around him seem to be stopped in time, and Shiva still holded her own!

And he beat her once by poisoning a few chocolates that Shiva later eated, and even drugged, Shiva still broke 3 of his ribs, and didn't got touched, and she only "lost" due to passing out, due to the druggs effects.

In my opinion, Lady Shiva looked better than Tim, on Tim's "wins".

Better fighters than Lady Shiva? lol, that one i have to see, please tell me who they are.

Lady Shiva didn't lost to Prometheus, she never even faced him to begin with, she lost to a guy called Chad Graham, who was using Prometheus helmet, on the old Birds Of Prey series, which doesn't really prove anything, since different people, think differently.

Besides, Prometheus stomped Batman, when he solo'ed the Justice League.

@outside_85 said:

@nukea6 said:

Actually it's both origins and skill. In her origin stories, she became a master assassin before reaching the age of 10 and surpassed Wolverine in her Weapon X training. She's a pretty smart fighter having figuring out to disable Lady Deathstrike (who has healing) and managed to defeat Wolverine (sure he was holding back but she still figured how to lessen his healing factor). She even stalemated Daken and got the better of Spider-Man. Lady Shiva is nothing new to her.

No, because Cassandra is a product of David Cain's philosophy of 'genes+selective training=best living weapon'. And it worked, because it was his (one of the deadliest assasins around) and Shiva's genes and his selective training. Laura otoh was only half Logan's genetic material and had to make do with a sensei no one has never heard of.

Laura had it worse because the Facility actively tried to keep her inhuman and unfeeling, by adding Kimura, the trigger scent and that thing with the puppy.

Also, you are lising Laura against people who rely heavily on a metahuman ability just to keep them going while they tend to hack and stab away at whatever they happen to be fighting till it stops moving.

@senglord said:

@outside_85: on the Hush scan. Good example of Shiva's reflexes against a moderately skilled opponent.

The big issue is that Laura has speed and reflexes above Captain America. And the internet would bleed if we opened up about the physicals of Spade and Steve.

This is close to Shiva vs Deathstroke in terms of speed, durability, and damage output. Critical difference would be that Spade can resist body reading.

Meanwhile I am still wating for Laura to be put up against an opponent that isn't just relying on being insanely durable to prove how good she actually is at martial arts. Besides the point of the scan was to show how Shiva could get an incapacitating blow in against an opponent that happens to fight in a similar fashion as Laura.

I would like you to prove the bolded part, because as I recall, the only time Steve and Laura have ever come to blows was ended immediately when he jumped out of a helicopter and landed shield first on top of her. Secondly, I dont recall any of the 'Logans' being mentioned as stronger than Steve to any meaningful amount. Logan is stronger because of the adamantium he has to carry around, but the others are not.

And the big problem there is that Deathstroke, for all his boosts and physical edges, is barely above Batman when it comes to skill (which he has admitted to himself) Shiva is above Batman by a good margin.

And again, being a martial artist (in comics) often means the user is able to overcome most standard metahuman abilites through them either to incapacitate the adversary by either avoiding their attacks, throwing them or simply knowing when and where to strike. Laura has yet to over come Kimura and her low level of superhuman strength and invulnurability without resorting to the enviroment, hence why the vast majority of their fights has ended up like this:

And when push comes to shove, would you serious back Kimura if she was faced with someone like Iron Fist or Shang-Chi... because thats the kind of level Shiva is on.

Only half of Wolverine's genetic material yet she's able to handle characters on Deathstroke's level. Not someone I would call inferior to Cassandra Cain.

And FYI, the only reason she can't beat Kimura is because her skin is impenetrable. There is literally nothing X-23 can do to stop her. It took Emma Frost to beat her because she's not immune to telepathy.

@newecho: Let me say I dont see how Laura fighting many opponents or Kimura sneaking up on her matters, if Laura is a top tier martial artist as many here seem to claim, she would have noticed... like so many of the best fighters can deal with scores of opponents coming from all sides even when they are blind. Btw, it was Laura who cut her own hand off because Kimura is into 50 Shades of Adamantium.

As for her strength and durability... well thats just the same talent set that Killer Croc has; physically stronger than anyone in Gotham but Bane, and a highly durable hide... and look where that got him when he faced Shiva. And Linda Danvers has far more in both than Croc and she couldn't take Shiva either.

I haven't seen her deal with the likes of the Taskmaster or Captain America, so I'll wait for that to be proven. FYI none of the Weapon X products are on Deathstroke's level when it comes to skill, body count maybe, but not skill.

That Kimura's skin is unbreakable is only relevant as long as you try to stab her, which doesn't make her a huge problem for a good martial artist.

@outside_85: again she is Laura's handler,,, she knows her inside and out and knows how to use her and x-23 is imitimated because of abuse by kimura... and I when I said she I meant laura cut her own hand off... she has a win over logan using only skill and she has stalemated daken multiple times using skill... She is skilled but not as skilled as Sandra so basically all that needs to be proven is that she has skill and that skill alone will not win the fight for sandra which has been proven...

@captain_batman_ftw said:

@nukea6:

Because Gorilla Grodd is a master martial artist, right? It was pretty clear that Lady Shiva wasn't herself in Superman/Batman #3. Batman even says it. Based on the fact, she scared off Croc with one hand and defeated a hi-tech cyborg ninja with just Escrima sticks put her at a level above Batman.

What? Gorila Grodd martial artist? What? You misunderstood my point. Shiva still had her skills and stats as Batman himself (you know, the guy who fought her) stated. How dos your opinion change that? She scared of Killer Croc with one hand? Hmm, well, let's just forget that Croc is a huge jobber, but if we go by that way, then Bats has one-shotted Croc. Bruce one-shotted a huge robot made out of metal as well. BTW, what feats does Bronze Tiger have other than hype?

Hell, Batman had to run and use gadgets to fight Cassandra Cain when they were affected by a drug that made them bloodlusted. Cassandra had no trouble defeating him and Shiva always gives her a good fight. Bronze Tiger, a martial artist Bats has never beaten, acknowledges Shiva as his superior.

So that makes her Bruce's superior? Well, if that's so, then time for some ABC logic: Karate Kid (this is someone's H2H skills who far exceeds that of Shiva's) aknowledged Bruce as skilled and he wanted to teach from him, therefore Bruce is automatically Lady Shiva's superior due to a massive chunk of the great thing called: ABC logic.

Batman has created his own styles and he reckognizes any style he sees. He has been trained in some techniques which makes him a top tier and maybe superior to Shiva. Such as this (from Gotham Knight White And Black #1):

He did it with his bare foot, BTW. The tree-busting kicks are out of skill and not strenght. This instance pretty much confirms it.

1. Nowhere has Batman stated Shiva had her skills and power. Stop making garbage up just to make your Batgod look superior. She and a bunch of villains were mind-controlled by Gorilla Grodd which is why Batman said they acted different (as said in a scan posted in this thread).

2. That form of Killer Croc was post-Hush where Batman struggled to stop him

3. Batman one-shotting a robot is non-canon (as it's from a Tarzan crossover) like the Black & White scan you posted.

4. When Cassandra Cain lost her body-reading ability, she went to Batman who told her it would take years to get it back. She decided to go to Shiva and she regains her lost ability within a day. You can find this Puckett's Batgirl run and that's proof enough on how Shiva is beyond Batman's martial arts abilities.

5. As for Karate Kid, that's PIS especially since the guy is capable of ridiculous feats such as taking down a bloodlusted Daxamite and chopping off the arm of an alien that was too much for Supergirl to handle. Batman can't even handle a bloodlusted Superman on his own.

@outside_85:

wolverine >> slade in skill... deadpool is comparable in skill but that is more debateable.... so I don't know where you were going with that... btw the kimura thing,, its not like she just kicks Laura's butt or anything... she can't be physically harmed at least not by the non bricks of marvel but her mind is open which is the way she gets beat...

@newecho: Kimura is a thug that only used brute force to keep Laura down, perfectly exemplified by the glimpses we've had of the two in the past.

And again, you resort to people who far too often rely entirely on their healing factor rather than skill. Thats not going to convince me of anything.

@outside_85:

do you read the comics?....or just scans? not implying anything but kimura isn't just a "thug",, especially to laura... wolverine >> shiva,, and him having a healing factor and ademantium skeleton actually makes him harder to beat....so your logic is a little flawed for me....I like Sandra better too but not sure how she wins random with no prior knowledge fight...

@newecho: If the healing factor is all that matters to you in this case, you can explain to me why Logan asked Iron Fist not to use his hands when they two practiced against one another?

@nukea6:

Nowhere has Batman stated Shiva had her skills and power. Stop making garbage up just to make your Batgod look superior. She and a bunch of villains were mind-controlled by Gorilla Grodd which is why Batman said they acted different (as said in a scan posted in this thread).

Batgod? Really? Are you that angry at Batman? If you can't have a civil debate, then just GTFO! I haven't shown anything that makes me a fanboy, but the fact that you bring up the 'Batgod' concept is pretty damn funny.

I'm not making up garbage, Batman pretty much says that regardless of wether or not she's mind-controlled, the question always lingers... Do you know what regardless means in this context? Probably not, but you should try and read it properly cause in this context, regardless means that it doesn't matter wether or not she is mind-controlled, she still have the same physical stats and skills. If that's to much for your brain to take, then try to ignore it.

That form of Killer Croc was post-Hush where Batman struggled to stop him

I'm aware of the Hush instance, but I'm not even talking about that one, I'm talking about what New 52 Batman did.

Batman one-shotting a robot is non-canon (as it's from a Tarzan crossover) like the Black & White scan you posted.

Tarzan crossover...? What are you talking about? I'm talking about the instance from the Batwing series where Batman one-shotted a huge robot. Can you prove that the Black And White is non-canon? I haven't heard anything about that yet. Still, he kicked down trees with each of his feet individually in Year One.

When Cassandra Cain lost her body-reading ability, she went to Batman who told her it would take years to get it back. She decided to go to Shiva and she regains her lost ability within a day. You can find this Puckett's Batgirl run and that's proof enough on how Shiva is beyond Batman's martial arts abilities.

What...? No, the body-reading thing is something Shiva individually has learned, it doesn't have anything with martial arts to do, if it does, then name me one martial art that includes that. Please, I'll be waiting. Seriously though. You're not making any sense. Body-reading is something else.

As for Karate Kid, that's PIS especially since the guy is capable of ridiculous feats such as taking down a bloodlusted Daxamite and chopping off the arm of an alien that was too much for Supergirl to handle. Batman can't even handle a bloodlusted Superman on his own.

Do you have problems reading? I clearly said this:

Karate Kid (this is someone's H2H skills who far exceeds that of Shiva's) aknowledged Bruce as skilled and he wanted to teach from him

I never said that he defeated Karate Kid, nor did I say anything like that. I didn't even say that he did good against him. What I said was that Karate Kid acknoledged him for his H2H skills and wanted to teach from him. Of course KK could one-shot Batman. Jesus Christ.

@outside_85:

What are you talking about? the healing factor isn't all that matters but you are disregarding characters as having no skill just because they have a healing factor.. But yet some how slade has more skill than any weapon x participant because he is the only one who uses skill and has a healing factor?? Wolverine is one of the elites in all of comics when it is regarding skill,,, now his history he has to be retaught and yada yada yada no reason to get into that,, but we know if he is fighting at his best he is elite level.... so I don't get your relying on HF as a reason for not having skill,,, that is flawed logic.... It should be harder to beat someone whom is elite level in skill and has one of the better healing factors in comics and not to mention that whole skeleton thing... btw danny beats wolvie and shiva so bringing him into the conversation doesn't really matter...

Lady Shiva is more skilled than Batman, because Batman himself + alot of other characters have said so on multiple ocasions, and because their feats say so as well.

Lady Shiva has done better than Batman has, against everyone that they have both faced:

- Cassandra Cain - Lady Shiva defeated Cass twice, although both instances have context (Cass didn't had her Body-Reading in the first fight, and on their second fight, Cass wantted to die) and she managed to held her own on 3 other fights that she had against Cass, all 3 with Cass on her peak! and all 5 instances, in Hand-to-Hand battles, all happened on Cassandra Batgirl series...Batman only beat Cass when she didn't had her Body-Reading, with Cass on her peak, the best that Batman ever did, was stallemating her once, it was on Batgirl #50 - Tough Love but in order to do that, Batman used Gear + Gadgets + Dirty Tactic's, he even blew up an entire bridge, and in the end it was still a stallemate.

- David Cain - As a teenager and while being pregnant, Lady Shiva stomped him, on his prime...Batman stallemated a older David Cain, during the No Man's Land story arc, and beat him on Bruce Wayne: Fugitive

- Bronze Tiger - As a teenager Lady Shiva was shown oneshotting Bronze Tiger, on his prime, in a flash-back, and on the present, a older Bronze Tiger admitted to Cass, that only the entire League Of Assassins together at the same time, could've taken down Lady Shiva, and they only did it because she wasn't as good as she is in the present...against Bronze Tiger, Batman has one stallemate and one loss.

- Richard Dragon - Lady Shiva defeated him and killed him on his own series Richard Dragon...the best that Batman ever did, was stallemating him.

- Killer Croc - Lady Shiva has humilliated him once (i posted the scans on this thread)...while Batman has had trouble against him, here and there.

- Dick Grayson - Lady Shiva has stomped Dick Grayson on the 3 encounters that they had, in the Pre-New-52 continuity she oneshotted him as Nightwing, before she started fighting Conner Hawke, and in the New 52 she stomped him once against him as Robin, on Nightwing #0 - Perpetual Motion, and she stomped him again, this time against him as Nightwing, on Nightwing #14 - Die for Me...Batman's encounters with Dick Grayson favor Batman greatly, yes, and they should, but he has also gave him trouble, here and there, for instances, they stallemated on Nightwing #30 - Setting Son.

- Catwoman - Lady Shiva has stomped Catwoman 1-on-1 once, and she stomped Catwoman + Black Canary + Huntress, once on the old Birds Of Prey series...Batman has trouble with Catwoman here and there, because he holds back on her, sure, but the fact is, Catwoman has never even touched Lady Shiva.

The only exception it's Prometheus, and even him its a forced exemple, because Batman and Lady Shiva faced different people wearing the same helmet. Besides, Lady Shiva has one loss, and Batman has one loss and one win, but he faced him 2 times, while Lady Shiva only faced him once, and they both have lost their first fight against him.

Also, in 1-on-1 fair Hand-to-Hand fights, all they have its stallemates.

And on top of that, you have Batman himself + alot of other people stating and/or implying that Lady Shiva is the best fighter in the world, multiple times.

1. I'm actually a Batman fan. Consider him my favorite comic character even. I just don't have such a ridiculous hard-on over him that I consider him superior. And it's funny how you want to talk about civil when you're doing the opposite right now.

2. New 52 is irrelevant when that version of Batman is different from the one in Post-Flashpoint. You know we're using Post-Flashpoint Lady Shiva, right? I also don't read Batwing.

3. Kick down trees? That's really supposed to be impressive? Almost every fictional martial artist can do that. Hell, Cassandra busts through brick walls.

4. Body-reading is still a technique which Batman lacks.

5. Doesn't change the fact the Karate Kid example is pretty bad especially considering the fact that Lady Shiva has better combat feats than Batman (excluding the gadgets). You can clearly see Cassandra defeating him while bloodlusted in the Pucket run while Shiva has always gave her an extended fight. Batman always falls in a fair fight with Deathstroke while Cassandra at least stalemated him.

@captain_batman_ftw: When cain went and was scouting for talent, he discovered Sandra and her sister and noticed she could read you like a book,,, at that time it was going to be a meta ability and it eventually has been down played and became a skill especially since cass came along... Cass went to Sandra because bats didn't read opponents like she did so Sandra could teach her which is why as soon as she went to her,, she basically figured it out... @bat_girl_cc will know more about it... but it is a skill not a meta ability...

@newecho: I disregard them because on page, these characters (save Laura actually) show so very little in actual skill when they fight that they quite often leave a fight riddled with bulletholes, resembles a porcupine with all the swords and knives sticking out of them or with huge chuncks of flesh missing. Thats not the sign of someone who is highly skilled at fighting.

Because Slade can walk away from most fights he gets into without having lost anything more than a couple of drops of his own blood. He is good enough to avoid taking hits, that is the point.

No Logan is in the elite with sheer tanking, he's not even in the top ten when it comes skill, and it shows with the amount of damage he takes.

Actually in the fight I mentioned, Logan did actually win, but Danny could still hang with him pretty well without using his hands. If Danny would beat Shiva... actually I don't think he would, Shang-Chi is supposed to be no. 1 in Marvel Martial Arts, and Shiva killed DC's parallel to Danny: Richard Dragon (in case you dont know, Dragon was before Flashpoint the guy who trained just about everyone worth mentioning when it came to martial arts in DC)

Well to be fair, i've always cosidered it to be kinda of both...i mean, its not a meta abillity, in the sense that it makes you a meta-human, but its both a skill and a special abillity.

Anyway, Lady Shiva is more skilled than Batman, both by statements and feats, there's no nead to get all this technical, lol :)

I'm going with X-23.

Do you read marvel? because danny isn't Richard dragon's equivalent and saying shang chi is marvel's number one???? he has no feats and shang chi would be closer to Richard dragon's equivalent..I realize that some on panel discussions get this clouded ie black panther saying to luke cage shang chi's kung fu is better and even danny contemplating whether chi is better but chi has no feats. Logan not in the top ten in skill?? he has a winning record vs everyone including Danny minus black panther in marvel and I don't know anyone who wouldn't put logan top three or 4 in terms of pure skill....according to feats the top four would be in no particular order,,danny, tchalla, logan, and matt.... That's not including people like gamora and mantis.... and exactly why would danny not beat shiva? faster way stronger with punching power and not only that just as skilled....plus he has energy projections and knows styles that would fool body readers... yeah....I love Sandra but she isn't beating danny without severely nerfing him...

@newecho: no spiderman? He dances around wolverine like it's casual Friday.

@bat_girl_cc:

Lady Shiva is more skilled than Batman, because Batman himself + alot of other characters have said so on multiple ocasions, and because their feats say so as well.

Others have said so? Statements? Listen up everyone: Black Canary is officially a superior H2H combatant than Batman because Oracle said so. Is this true?

And on top of that, you have Batman himself + alot of other people stating and/or implying that Lady Shiva is the best fighter in the world, multiple times.

Staments everywhere.

You're still using ABC logic, because Lady Shiva has faced these people and done better, therefore she's better. Doesn't make sense at all, but if do choose that way, then Batman >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shiva. ABC logic won't work.

@nukea6

I'm actually a Batman fan. Consider him my favorite comic character even. I just don't have such a ridiculous hard-on over him that I consider him superior. And it's funny how you want to talk about civil when you're doing the opposite right now.

I'll admit it when Batman will lose (such as Black Panther, Wolverine, Spiderman etc...), so I don't know where you're getting this 'Batgod' image from. I was debating in a civil way until you began sprouting the Batgod BS.

New 52 is irrelevant when that version of Batman is different from the one in Post-Flashpoint. You know we're using Post-Flashpoint Lady Shiva, right? I also don't read Batwing.

New 52 is a continuation from post Crisis, so what's your point?

Kick down trees? That's really supposed to be impressive? Almost every fictional martial artist can do that. Hell, Cassandra busts through brick walls.

Kicking down trees is impressive for a human street leveller. Also, kind of funny how you say that 'every fictional martial artist can do it', when you say that Cassandra busts through brick walls. Let's not forget that people in real life busts through concrete plates.

Body-reading is still a technique which Batman lacks

LMFAO! Batman has body-reading himself.

Doesn't change the fact the Karate Kid example is pretty bad especially considering the fact that Lady Shiva has better combat feats than Batman (excluding the gadgets). You can clearly see Cassandra defeating him while bloodlusted in the Pucket run while Shiva has always gave her an extended fight. Batman always falls in a fair fight with Deathstroke while Cassandra at least stalemated him.

Sure. If it helps you sleep. Batman has beaten Deathstroke once and stalemated a stronger version once.

@jestersmiles:

oh yeah ,,, the app has every spidey comic minus six months out.... I just read the other story arc a few monthes back and he is my consistent reading package now...

@newecho: Well thnx for the info but I was talking about your marvel list of combantants. xD

@nukea6:

you have to forgive him,, he does think bats is super and can't accept the fact that he is just human... he doesn't mean any harm and really is harmless..

@jestersmiles:

haha you mean as in top for skill? he is above those guys when not holding back minus danny... Danny can speed his movements up fast enough to take spidey but it is close... Spidey is mid tier to me tho...

@newecho: cool. I love Spidey. One of the few Marvel Characters I like.

@jestersmiles:

read spider island,,, in that arc... chi teaches him the way of the spider which is an awesome fighting technique... And another reason why I say shang chi is Richard dragon's equilvalent ...He is the teacher of Marvel.. Read some Moon Knight(very surprised to how much I like him) and anything of the street level variety by brubaker( he gave us the winter soldier arc) and his run on dd was awesome..

• Not much, but the books appear to support what I am saying so theres that.
• I'll await a deeper explanation why the comparison between two guys that will their hands solid enough to break stone is off.
• If Shang-Chi had no feats, he wouldn't be anything compared to Dragon.
• Since he seems to have been quite heavily featured in recent events, I think you need to rediscover him. He seemed quite capable of taking down the robot minions from Infinity.
• Like I've said several times now, he's considered a great because of his healing factor not because he's as skilled as the rest of them.
• Feats are one thing, actual skill is another. Just in the mystical tinged world of Iron Fist there are 6 others that would blast your 3 others out of the water if it was just down to skill. And you say it yourself, you base it on feats, then leave out one MA's that can even cause Thanos trouble.
• Since when is he faster? What does it matter that he's stronger if he will never hit her? And here's the thing, in DC there is a big book of Martial Arts, Batman knows most of them (it seems). Shiva knows all of them, and considered it a source of entertainment to travel the world and beat the other masters to death with her bare hands.

I think you mean "Pre-Flashpoint", not "Post-Flashpoint".

Cause "Post" regards to "after", rather than "before", as it seems your implying in regards to Batman and Shiva.

@captain_batman_ftw: i am beginning to think you are either a troll or a moron... We are not using ABC to determine who would win but to determine who is more skilled and that requires more examples not just bats vs Shiva which bats wins since he is double in size and strength... She is a lot more skilled man...

Take this example i used to play chess semi pro (4th table in nationals in Serbia ranked 17th) but i would always beat #1 player because that was our playstyles and even so he is still A LOT better than i am.

@captain_batman_ftw:

I agree that feats > statements, but the point is that no matter how you want to look at it, Lady Shiva is more skilled than Batman.

" You're still using ABC logic, because Lady Shiva has faced these people and done better, therefore she's better. "

Yup, it's ABC logic, but it's also a direct comparison, and notice just how consistent it is.

" Doesn't make sense at all, but if do choose that way, then Batman >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shiva. "

?...i just proved the exact oposite (go see post number 426)

" ABC logic won't work. "

How do you want to look at it, then?...Batman and Lady Shiva have never defeated one another, without special circunstances.

" Let's not forget that people in real life busts through concrete plates. "

Lol, Cassandra's stricking-power feats are meta-human, she has K.O'ed meta-humans in one single hit...punched through bullet-proof-prison-glass, she has karate-choped a sword in half, she has punched through 3-inch-quartz, she as broke steel with one kick, etc.

" Batman has body-reading himself. "

No he doesn't, and he never had.

If you are good enough, and if you have experience enough, you can do it to a small degree, but Lady Shiva and Cassandra's Body-Reading are on a completely different level, they are special-abillities, not generic move-reading's.

" Batman has beaten Deathstroke once and stalemated a stronger version once. "

Batman's record against Deathstroke its 1-1-3 in Deathstroke's favor.

Side-Note: Batman is my all time second favourite character, but Lady Shiva is more skilled than him.

1. my interpretation of the comics and most peoples don't support that so I don't know what book you are referring to.

2. chi is the teacher of marvel much what dragon has became known for altho dragon beats chi due to feats in my opinion

3. chi has feats but when compared to the likes of panther, danny, and logan they are not as good or anywhere near as many

4. I will eventually get there : P

5. when logan needs to fight with skill he does,,, does he use his HF as a crutch? yes but so does cass use her body reading as a crutch and that certainly doesn't mean she isn't skilled

6. what 6 would beat them?? and I don't put gamora in the top ten because she is above street level as in she lifts like 70 tons and of course she could beat them minus danny....

7. Danny has this thing called chi,, he can manipulate it to where he can move faster than you can see and he summon all this energy into his fist and becomes a fist of iron capable of punching power in greater power than 100 tons...he can also project energy and drain energy and also heal himself... he has fought people with actual precog and beat them with just using his drunken style... he has mastered all martial arts including some mystical ones so no Sandra does not get to him without nerfing him...

@newecho:

1. Dunno which comics or what people you are referring to either.
2. In your opinion.
3. Because he has been mothballed for the last 20-30 years. And how many of those Logan/T'Challa feats could they still do if you took away their Adamantium and Vibranium trinkets?
4. :)
5. Body reading isn't a crutch, it's a specific skill the users had to learn. Logan on the other hand can depend on his HF to make sure he survives, nearly no matter what happens, thats why, if cornered, he can storm 20 guards with guns head on with no worry.
6. Gamora wasn't one of them, and I count her because she rare shows that kind of superhuman strength, she's all skill and always shows it. I dont know their names but they showed up right around Fear Itself, they are connected to that Kung-Fu city and the story was about the Monkey King.
7. Chi means lifeforce, if you aren't dead, you have it :) Danny just knows how to manipulate it. Also I wouldn't count on the mystical MA's Danny might know, because DC also has it's own super-secret art forms, so Shiva is in the same boat. (Dunno why drunke style would confuse a precog).

1. pretty much all marvel comics as of and up to 2011 lol...

2. n/a

3. a ton but they fight people with higher strength class and with healing factor so the trinkets and adamantium are just a part of their character,,, much like cass and shiva's body reading,, take a way that and how many feats do they have??

4. n/a

5. body reading is a crutch as evidence when she lost it... she was a shell of herself,, now Sandra does not depend on it as much as cass .... Logan uses his HF against fodder and bricks but when he fights someone with skill ie black panther, ogun, the gorgon, or any of those highly skilled opponents,,, he uses skill @jashro44 knows more about logan than do I tho and he can give way more examples

6. I know the arc you are talking about but they don't have many feats and couldn't be in their category without more showings... Gamora is still above street leveler and I agree she is Bad a when it comes to skill but she also don't fight mainstream people that often...

7. you are right,, chi means life force and he can control that but he also has the manipulation of shao lou the undying and can use that which is why he is the iron fist... he can go to super levels...shiva doesn't know any mystical ones that I know of but as far as I know she has mastered all so that isn' t really an issue for me : ).... the drunken style allows him to become unpredictable, he can fool body reading and move his muscles to where you think he is moving in a totally different direction.... :).. iron fist is the man.. altho I think right now he is nerfed...

X-23

Without repeating what Batgirl_CC has replied:

1. Batman himself has feared and respected Lady Shiva. She was even the first person he went to after Bane broke his back.

2. You want to deny this Batgod image yet you ignore the fact that Lady Shiva has better martial arts feats than Batman and made a lie about Batman having body-reading. If he was really that good, he wouldn't have fallen to Bane or have Catman put up a fighter longer than one panel.

3. A continuation with numerous alterations. Wonder Woman is arrogant and fights with a sword and buckler, Batman uses more advanced tech and is even more bitter than ever, Nightwing has body-reading, Darkseid gained power from killing gods, Cyborg has never been a Teen Titan, Red Robin is younger and not even the guy he once was, etc. etc. Really, the fact you can't even see this, destroys your credibility by a lot.

4. Batman has only beaten Deathstroke with unfair advantages (outside of non-canon things like the Son of Batman movie). Once was during a sneak attack and another was when he was backed by Robin and Nightwing. Dick as Batman was the one to stalemate him but even he was reeling after the fight while Deathstroke looked fine. And in case you're bringing up the New 52, it was pretty obvious that Deathstroke was nerfed and out of focus as the text boxes clearly suggest throughout the whole fight.