False Equivalency. WW & Supergirl have comparable superpowers. Lady Shiva and X23 are only comparable physically: strength and speed. Durability, Healing, Stamina, Weapons, are all massively in favor of X23.
@lukehero: Ok so maybe the lazy remark was a bit much but you can't blame me. Since most people here just Screaming "HF HF HF" like that the only deciding factor here. It not like Lady Shiva does not have experience, skills, and Body reading on her side but let not forget that "HF HF HF". but Like it said, popularity contest, meh.
False Equivalency. WW & Supergirl have comparable superpowers. Lady Shiva and X23 are only comparable physically: strength and speed. Durability, Healing, Stamina, Weapons, are all massively in favor of X23.
@jestersmiles: Point it there was no purpose in you posting that WW vs Supergirl scan hitting at some comparison of how experience would play out in the battle of X23 & Shiva.
I originally thought this was too close to call, but after reconsidering I believe X-23 takes. Shiva is amazing, but I just don't think she has the damage output to put X-23 down. Remember that Laura was trained as an assassin her whole life, perfecting a fighting style that utilized both her adamantium claws, and Healing Factor. While Lady Shiva still outclasses her in the skill department, I don't think its enough to compensate for X-23's enhancements.
The only way I could see Lady Shiva winning here is with a nerve pinch or decapitation, both of which have been proven to work on Healing Factors. Another great matchup, @k4tzm4n! Side Note: I like your new avatar, Mikey is my favorite TMNT :)
@lukehero: i gotta say this: Adamantium or not swords can break swords which is the reason you never take the hit on the blade you block punches by either sideslapping or letting the opponents blade slide down yours. X-23 aint cutting no ones swords.
I'll go with Shiva on this one because unlike Batman (whom I voted against when he fought Laura), she doesn't have any compunction against outright killing her opponent if the opportunity presents itself and the assailant is worthy of it.
While Laura is indeed skilled, as she has demonstrated on numerous occasions, she (like Logan) relies heavily on her healing factor and her blades to get her through a lot of her fights.
I originally thought this was too close to call, but after reconsidering I believe X-23 takes. Shiva is amazing, but I just don't think she has the damage output to put X-23 down. Remember that Laura was trained as an assassin her whole life, perfecting a fighting style that utilized both her adamantium claws, and Healing Factor. While Lady Shiva still outclasses her in the skill department, I don't think its enough to compensate for X-23's enhancements.
The only way I could see Lady Shiva winning here is with a nerve pinch, which has been proven to work on Healing Factors. Another great matchup, @k4tzm4n! Side Note: I like your new avatar, Mikey is my favorite TMNT :)
I think you forget that Shiva can simply choose to break Laura's bones, they may heal back in place in a moment or three, but the point is that Shiva could break Laura's neck like Kimura did and call it a day. (Think everyone can agree that Kimura is not exactly a high ranking martial artist or have a particularly huge amount of superhuman strength)
@outside_85: MMM, great point. But, if she did break all her bones Laura could get really mad and go berserk. Still, X-23 has a better chance in my OP.
@outside_85: MMM, great point. But, if she did break all her bones Laura could get really mad and go berserk. Still, X-23 has a better chance in my OP.
Well, she can be as berserk as she likes, but she isn't going to be doing anything with a broken neck :) Besides there's no trigger scent to set her off.
Gotta hand it to X 23. Shiva has the skill, but she remains an un enhanced human. Laura can fight for much longer and obviously can heal from grievous injury. I could see Shiva getting drained after a dragged out fight. Shivas best bet would be to take Laura out quickly, but because of the girl's physiology quick is not going to be easy. But to keep it simple let's review the facts. In most polls we've determined Logan most likely kills Batman(no prep) in a fight. Laura can hold her own against Logan and has done the same with Daken who has beaten Logan before. Now Shiva has lost to Batman(batman/superman public enemies comic). So putting it all together Laura can hang with Bats and might just come out on top. So Lady Shiva would be less of an issue than him. Still would be a tough fight but I think Laura can take it.
@jashro44: occured to me that breaking the neck of someone with an adamantium skeleton, might be impossible, not sure though.
Problem is though that Laura doesn't have an admantium skeleton, they only coated her claws because they wanted her to grow to adulthood before giving her the rest (or she would have been a 16 year old forever).
Gotta hand it to X 23. Shiva has the skill, but she remains an un enhanced human. Laura can fight for much longer and obviously can heal from grievous injury. I could see Shiva getting drained after a dragged out fight. Shivas best bet would be to take Laura out quickly, but because of the girl's physiology quick is not going to be easy. But to keep it simple let's review the facts. In most polls we've determined Logan most likely kills Batman(no prep) in a fight. Laura can hold her own against Logan and has done the same with Daken who has beaten Logan before. Now Shiva has lost to Batman(batman/superman public enemies comic). So putting it all together Laura can hang with Bats and might just come out on top. So Lady Shiva would be less of an issue than him. Still would be a tough fight but I think Laura can take it.
Bit of a faulty logic at work here.
First of all, Batman in the Superman/Batman book noted that Shiva wasn't moving with the same speed as she normally does, which turned out be because she was being controlled by Gorilla Grodd. At all other times Shiva walks all over pretty much everyone that gets in front of her.
Secondly, Laura can hang with Logan and vise versa only because of their healing factors that allow them to make the two dozen adamantium coated blades less of an issue. Since Shiva doesn't have a bladed weapon (and never seems to use any kind of weapon), she is as always going to rely on striking at pressure points.
@outside_85: but he has superhuman strength.. I dont understand (@_@)
Superman and Zod (and Faora for that matter) had in Man of Steel near identical levels of strength and durability, the only thing the yellow sun appeared to do was heighten their senses (the sensory overload Superman used against Zod and Faora in Smallville), the power of flight and heatvision.
Superman's and other Kryptonians durability and strength have always followed one another with the same degrees as they are in normal humans. Hence why for Superman it as as difficult to break another kryptonians neck as it is for one human to break another's. My point is that Superman was untrained in combat, while Zod was stuck with lack of experience with his new powers, but still it ended with Zod's death.
Laura and Shiva are for all intents and purposes running on human-levels of strength and have human levels of durability, what makes Shiva bleed, makes Laura bleed, only Laura heal the injury. If anything, Shiva has a slight edge in strength due to her being an adult while Laura is still growing and they are both in the same business.
The way Shiva wins this (if she does) is by KO or incap, both of wich are well within her capabilities to accomplish, since the Facility through Kimura nearly made it into a sport to do both through brute force.
H2H combat: Shiva is a much better fighter. The people who Shiva have bested are simply more formidable fighters that the people who Laura has beaten. I shouldn't have to go down the list.
Durability: Of course Laura takes this due to her healing factor but I see people saying that Shiva couldn't get past her adamantium skeleton... Laura's skeleton isn't adamantium, just her claws. Her bones can (and fighting against Shiva) will be broken. She'll just heal very quickly. Also healing factor doesn't prevent your ass from being knocked the hell out! We've all seen Wolverine get laid out flat a few times!
Mentality: Shiva takes this in spades. As battle tested as Laura is, Shiva is a true master assassin. That means reading your opponent in a matter of seconds and finding out their weaknesses. Then using those physical or mental weaknesses as a weapon. Shiva's ability to read an opponents movements and mindset is rivaled only by her daughter. Shiva would be able to read this mentally unstable teenager like an open book.
Experience: Shiva again. The rules to this battle say that it is a one on one duel in the middle of a dojo with an arsenal of melee weapons at her disposal. This is like putting Aquaman in the middle of the pacific or Reed Richards in the Baxter Building. There is literally nothing that Laura could do in that type of setting that Shiva has not seen before.
@outside_85: Ahh, I guess that's probably true. Ah, plus you know Batman before he was opposed to killing swung by and kicked a guy's neck 360 in a cover. Still pretty hard, especially since it takes you being in a vulnerable or awkward position to do it.
@outside_85: Ahh, I guess that's probably true. Ah, plus you know Batman before he was opposed to killing swung by and kicked a guy's neck 360 in a cover. Still pretty hard, especially since it takes you being in a vulnerable or awkward position to do it.
people forget there was a time where Batman went full Punisher (actually i think Punisher is based off this batman) and carried a gun to kill the criminals he beat
@outside_85: Ahh, I guess that's probably true. Ah, plus you know Batman before he was opposed to killing swung by and kicked a guy's neck 360 in a cover. Still pretty hard, especially since it takes you being in a vulnerable or awkward position to do it.
people forget there was a time where Batman went full Punisher (actually i think Punisher is based off this batman) and carried a gun to kill the criminals he beat
That would be the Batman 666 version... which was Damian. (Or, if you like, Jason Todd during Battle for the Cowl).
Not really seeing how Shiva gets past X23's healing factor. I'd love to see some arguments on how'd she do it tho....pressure points perhaps?
Well sabretooth for example was recently dropped by Daken when daken slit his throat. As has been mentioned shiva can just rip the throat out completely (IIRC its not hard to do that if you know what your doing). Or snapping her neck could probably incapacitate X-23. Unless people have something to prove otherwise.
shiva just can't do all that. it's not like x23 is just going to stand there and let her. if that's her only chance then it's safe to say that x has this in the bag.
@god_spawn: @laflux: Ugh I had responses for you both but the Vine ate my sh*t and since I only have my phone to work with I don't feel like retyping :(...
Not really seeing how Shiva gets past X23's healing factor. I'd love to see some arguments on how'd she do it tho....pressure points perhaps?
Well sabretooth for example was recently dropped by Daken when daken slit his throat. As has been mentioned shiva can just rip the throat out completely (IIRC its not hard to do that if you know what your doing). Or snapping her neck could probably incapacitate X-23. Unless people have something to prove otherwise.
shiva just can't do all that. it's not like x23 is just going to stand there and let her. if that's her only chance then it's safe to say that x has this in the bag.
The thing is though that she can do it while Laura tries to attack her the same way Laura can normally dispatch several opponents at the same time. Kinda like she is doing this:
(Note Selina is using both arms and a foot while Shiva only needs one arm to keep her at bay)
@god_spawn: @laflux: Ugh I had responses for you both but the Vine ate my sh*t and since I only have my phone to work with I don't feel like retyping :(...
wait big G is commenting here... oh i so got dibs on this. Its been a while since ive had a good a** kicking
@god_spawn: I'd disagree since Deadpool has better healing and no adamantium but has been aced by Hulk and other high powered characters. Hell he's been splattered by cars. He's just able to pull himself back together.
But Deadpool also has his fair share of tanking powerhouse showings like tanking hits from Colossus, She-Hulk, Hercules, Moonstone, etc. Daken has tanked blasts from Cyclops and Thor, hits from an enraged Thing and Skaar. He has been within buildings exploding with little to no effect. Laura has been in the heart of explosions that took out large buildings only to come out incredibly burnt but conscious. Even Logan without his adamantium was tanking hits from Mr. Hyde and the Hulk. If it were just the adamantium then his kids shouldn't have inherited his damage soak. I know it doesn't really make sense when it's just super fast healing and the adamantium is a more legitimate option, but it isn't always the case in the comics. It's consistent enough and spread throughout quite a few characters.
to be fair Deadpool has also been turned into a puddle by Hulk. just throwing my 2 cents in there. If people like Hulk or Thing or Skaar were to put there full effort into their punch i cant imagine Daken or X-23 walking off from that. i think its Wolverine's adamantium is what really helps him in that matter.
While X-23 and Daken(who is FTL so he wont get tagged by Bricks) would most likely survive a hit like that i cant see them walking it off like Wolverine
@nukea6: Being conscious shortly after still counts as a loss by the rules of the fight. All Shiva has to do is temporarily KO or Incap X23 for the win. This is what is frustrating whenever someone with a healing factor comes up. The same thing happened with Deathstroke vs Deadpool. People were saying: "Well sure Deathstroke will probably kill him but Deadpool with get up in 15 minutes so Deadpool because lolz." Its as if they haven't bothered to read the rules of the fight.
Well good luck for Shiva because X-23 isn't slow. In fact, she's pretty much Marvel's version of Cassandra Cain down to the abusive childhood and training to become a weapon. And the fact she kept going with a headshot proves she can take mortal wounds pretty well.
@jestersmiles: I don't think its a popularity contest as I think Sandra is more popular.. I know I enjoy her a lot more than laura...but in a random scenario with no prior knowledge,, I don't see how she overcomes her obstacles... Ok we all agree that Sandra is more skilled but she isn't so far ahead of laura that gives her an auto Win..I think Laura is faster stat wise which I think nullifies the body reading that Sandra has in a random scenario... I believe Sandra will have no idea that she has healing factor but will deduce it rather quickly and empty her bag quicker which could lead to a mistake... She has no weapon that can not be cut in to by the claws of laura and to get laura knocked out... you will have dang near cut her head off... how likely is it that Sandra can beat her that much that she gets woosy enough that laura can be decapitated?? How quick does Sandra use the leopard blow? and does it even work on someone who tanks hits from 20 plus tonners with ease?? Can Sandra not get touched at all? We know lots of lesser characters hit Sandra and and put Sandra through good fights..Whats to stop x23 from sacrificing herself to get a kill shot on sandra?? I just don't think skill wins this for Sandra I guess... I do believe that with prior knowledge the fight would be different tho...
Not really seeing how Shiva gets past X23's healing factor. I'd love to see some arguments on how'd she do it tho....pressure points perhaps?
Well sabretooth for example was recently dropped by Daken when daken slit his throat. As has been mentioned shiva can just rip the throat out completely (IIRC its not hard to do that if you know what your doing). Or snapping her neck could probably incapacitate X-23. Unless people have something to prove otherwise.
shiva just can't do all that. it's not like x23 is just going to stand there and let her. if that's her only chance then it's safe to say that x has this in the bag.
The thing is though that she can do it while Laura tries to attack her the same way Laura can normally dispatch several opponents at the same time. Kinda like she is doing this:
(Note Selina is using both arms and a foot while Shiva only needs one arm to keep her at bay)
also, keep in mind selina has claws, just to point out the fact that Sandra knows how to work around it
Laura >>>>>> selena..... and laura is way faster too as in she is low level super human in speed... Laura is also a master in lots of martial arts styles while selena is just adept and can hold her own....Besides lesser skilled peeps such as huntress and tim drake give her great fights and hit her consistently..
@newecho: of course it a popularity contest , all internet polls basically boil down to that. Don't see how anyone could say other wise. Even if Laura not that well known, they see her and immediately think of Wolverine and vote for her. Lady Shiva is in no way more popular, pretty sure the Casual fans don't even know she consider part of batman rogue gallery.....
Laura is in no way faster than Shiva, at best they very close but in no way is Laura faster. Laura has no way to get by Shiva body reading , as for weapons there swords around the dojo which shiva can use effectively with getting them broken.
Durability not going help getting your neck snap or decapitation, which should be enough to K.O Laura.
I say it for the last time
All Laura has is her HF and Claws
Lady Shiva, Has Body reading, Skills and way more Experience.
@divell: and? the only reason she even cut him was because of her claws, Lady shiva pictures shows how smart she is an can use one own body against them. These two picture aren't even comparable.
That picture also shows what a hot head Laura is, something lady shiva can use to her advantage.
@jashro44: And? I'm aware that they were mind-controlled, but that clearly didn't matter when Bruce said this:
''REGARDLESS (key word) of wether ot not she's being mind-controlled, the question has always lingered; which is the better fighter betwee us...'' - It didn't really matter if she was being mind-controlled or not when Batman pretty much confirmed it.
No, it isn't debatable at all. Skill comes to every ability someone have, not just H2H. Batman's skill >>> Shiva's skill, he has a skill with pretty much everything lethal. Their skill in H2H is debatable, though, but Batman seems to be better in that regard as well, due to his training.
You do know laura is a master of lots of martial arts too and is probably just above black canary in skill or at the very least on par ....and laura has fought with a broke neck before and reattached limbs... how does Sandra fight with broken equipment? she can't cut through Laura's claws... Laura is low level super in speed... which is why I said stat wise she is faster.....Sandra will be hit by laura and Sandra will have to hit laura so many more times accomplish what laura can do in a couple hits...
All Laura has is her HF and Claws
She has a ton of skill also....
Lady Shiva, Has Body reading, Skills and way more Experience.
Her body reading isn't at a level where she does not get hit by opponents.... her skills are above laura but where Sandra is a 10 in skill,, laura is a 8.5 to 9...experience doesn't matter as much without knowledge.. Her experience considering she has never faced an opponent of this type before doesn't do anything for her while Laura has faced and beaten opponents with the skill level of shiva...
Like I said earlier,, I think prior knowledge and the match becomes something completely different as Sandra would know how laura fights and use that....
yeah dude I know bats is your guy and I see what you are saying as bats uses more skill not to kill than opponents use to kill, but shiva is technique,, that's all she does.. her skills really are not by anyone except val, sensei, and maybe dragon....she is that good
@divell: and? the only reason she even cut him was because of her claws, Lady shiva pictures shows how smart she is an can use one own body against them. These two picture aren't even comparable.
That picture also shows what a hot head Laura is, something lady shiva can use to her advantage.
dude Shiva has lost to the stupidest of all robins. while laura is also a expert strategiest as well not just a bruiser. plus her healing factor can help her support any punishment that shiva can give her and give minimum twice as much. Shiva don't have a ghost of a chance.
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