#1 Edited by MasterAction (632 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm really into Star Wars atm so I wanted to introduce a battle that decided who is the most powerful Sith/Jedi in the entire prequel trilogy (Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith). The battle itself is morals off and to the death with no prep time for any combatant. The participants are as follows;

Qui-Gon Jinn

Obi-Wan Kenobi

Ki-Adi-Mundi

Darth Maul

Darth Sidious

Anakin Skywalker

Mace Windu

Yoda

Count Dooku

Kit Fisto

Aayla Secura

Shaak Ti

General Grievous (bonus fighter)

In this massive free-for-all who reigns supreme and why?

#2 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going with Ki-Adi-Mundi, we don't really have many feats for him, but i like that guy

#3 Posted by KingAres109 (1249 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterAction: Is this EU Star Wars??If it is then Sidous easy!!

#4 Posted by ImBoredLetsDebate (456 posts) - - Show Bio

With all that dark side fueling Mace Windu's Vaapad, I think he would be the most likely to win. Second is Sidious, Yoda third, and the others are really debatable, but I'd go with those as the top 3

#5 Posted by Owie (3620 posts) - - Show Bio

Sidious and Yoda are well above everyone else. While I know you want this to be themed and find the most powerful, I'd personally cut those two out of the battle. I'd be curious to hear what people think about the ones that are left.

I'd guess that Aayla Secura is at the bottom of the Jedi/Sith. Also, Grievous is a very formidable physical combatant and would be a threat to most of these folks in pure H2H, but when the Force is included, he should be toast. Any one of them could lift him up and rip his body apart for a win.

#6 Posted by JediXMan (29563 posts) - - Show Bio

Palpatine is the strongest one here.

#7 Posted by Hyperlight (5455 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie said:

Sidious and Yoda are well above everyone else. While I know you want this to be themed and find the most powerful, I'd personally cut those two out of the battle. I'd be curious to hear what people think about the ones that are left.

I'd guess that Aayla Secura is at the bottom of the Jedi/Sith. Also, Grievous is a very formidable physical combatant and would be a threat to most of these folks in pure H2H, but when the Force is included, he should be toast. Any one of them could lift him up and rip his body apart for a win.

im with this go but mace isn't that far under yoda and sidious with lightsaber dueling. in fact, i was under the impression he was superior to both but somebody really knowledgeable tells me he isn't and it destroyed my life ( no emo)

#8 Posted by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImBoredLetsDebate said:

With all that dark side fueling Mace Windu's Vaapad, I think he would be the most likely to win.

No he doesn't.

@Hyperlight

: LOLz JedX, Silver, or shootingnova?

#9 Posted by Hyperlight (5455 posts) - - Show Bio

@KnightRise: jedi X.....

he really messed me up lol

#10 Posted by Alurvelve (3634 posts) - - Show Bio

Overall winner and then people coming in second, third, etc. (Also known as the first and second losers.) 1) Palpatine wins overall 2) Yoda 3) Mace (rolls eyes)

#11 Posted by ShootingNova (15546 posts) - - Show Bio

@KnightRise said:

: LOLz JedX, Silver, or shootingnova?

Oh, come on, mate. I wouldn't wreck somebody's life...... :(

@JediXMan said:

Palpatine is the strongest one here.

#12 Edited by ShootingNova (15546 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImBoredLetsDebate said:

With all that dark side fueling Mace Windu's Vaapad

The Dark Side does not fuel Vaapad. The narrowed focus and emotions that fuel Vaapad leads dangerously close to the Dark Side (hence why Sora Bulq and Depa Billaba failed to master Vaapad), but it is not actually directly related to the Dark Side.

Such narrowed focus comes dangerously close to the aggressive instincts that surface from the dark side.

-- Taken from Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

#13 Posted by JediXMan (29563 posts) - - Show Bio

@KnightRise said:

@Hyperlight

: LOLz JedX, Silver, or shootingnova?

Eh? I already gave my two cents.

#14 Posted by Alurvelve (3634 posts) - - Show Bio

On a related note. Which saber style do you think would be best suited for a all out battle royal?

#15 Posted by ShootingNova (15546 posts) - - Show Bio

@Alurvelve: Shii-Cho is strong against multiple enemies and blades, Soresu can shield oneself from onslaughts (but is not invincibility), so those are good. Makashi, Ataru and Juyo/Vaapad are better for one-on-one duels, with Juyo making one vulnerable to Force powers, so I doubt that would work.

Djem So and Niman aren't particularly strong against multiple enemies. Maybe Niman, but not to the extent of Forms I and III.

@JediXMan said:

Eh? I already gave my two cents.

He meant which one of us destroyed that guy's life in the past.

#16 Posted by Alurvelve (3634 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

Soresu

Favorite form!

#17 Posted by JediXMan (29563 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova:

I agree with your summary. Sums it up rather well.

For me, Soresu and Makashi are probably the best suited, depending on the skill of the user.

@Alurvelve said:

@ShootingNova said:

Soresu

Favorite form!

Makashi, right here! Awesome form, and my personal favorite - suits my style nicely.

#18 Posted by ShootingNova (15546 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: Makashi is bad against multiple enemies.

And since you do fencing, I would like to think that your favourite form is Makashi.

#19 Posted by guttridgeb (4831 posts) - - Show Bio

Sidious takes this.

#20 Posted by ImBoredLetsDebate (456 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@ImBoredLetsDebate said:

With all that dark side fueling Mace Windu's Vaapad

The Dark Side does not fuel Vaapad. The narrowed focus and emotions that fuel Vaapad leads dangerously close to the Dark Side (hence why Sora Bulq and Depa Billaba failed to master Vaapad), but it is not actually directly related to the Dark Side.

Such narrowed focus comes dangerously close to the aggressive instincts that surface from the dark side.

-- Taken from Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

I thought that the reason Mace was able to overcome Sidious during their duel was because he felt/fed on Anakin's fear, and Yoda said fear=dark side emotion, so I thought dark side (emotions at least) fueled Vaapad.

But anyway, even so, would all the narrowed focus and emotions from the others (specifically Darth Maul and Anakin) along with Sidious' rage/anger not amp him to a level higher than when he was amped in RotS?

#21 Posted by JediXMan (29563 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@JediXMan: Makashi is bad against multiple enemies.

And since you do fencing, I would like to think that your favourite form is Makashi.

Makashi, depending on the user, can be good against multiple enemies - again, as a fencer, I do know that (yes, I screwed around by fencing multiple enemies).

#22 Posted by JediXMan (29563 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImBoredLetsDebate said:

But anyway, even so, would all the narrowed focus and emotions from the others (specifically Darth Maul and Anakin) along with Sidious' rage/anger not amp him to a level higher than when he was amped in RotS?

That's not why he was amped; he was also channeling his inner darkness, because he was facing the fact that everything he knew was wrong - that the Republic, which he stood to protect, was in the hands of the Sith. There were many circumstances for this amp to even occur - and, as noted by Silver, even the amp could not protect Mace from lightning (before Anakin cut off his hand).

For further reading: here.

#23 Posted by ImBoredLetsDebate (456 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

@ImBoredLetsDebate said:

But anyway, even so, would all the narrowed focus and emotions from the others (specifically Darth Maul and Anakin) along with Sidious' rage/anger not amp him to a level higher than when he was amped in RotS?

That's not why he was amped; he was also channeling his inner darkness, because he was facing the fact that everything he knew was wrong - that the Republic, which he stood to protect, was in the hands of the Sith. There were many circumstances for this amp to even occur - and, as noted by Silver, even the amp could not protect Mace from lightning (before Anakin cut off his hand).

For further reading: here.

Good read. Thanks

#24 Posted by ascenscion (102 posts) - - Show Bio

Yoda and Sidious are the last two standing, beating out Dooku, Anakin and Mace and Maul. These guys are easily top 6, with the latter 4 looking like this (in order of best to worst): Mace, Maul, Anakin, Dooku. These 4 are still way better than any of the others. Yoda and Sidious are in different leagues. With these two the final combatants, I'd say Yoda could win because of Sidious' fatigue from fighting the numerically superior Jedi (assuming Anakin is good and Greivous gets dominated instantly) however Sidious is still fantastically strong, the most powerful Sith ever, etc, and has a good chance of winning.

#25 Posted by Manhunter_Prime (64 posts) - - Show Bio

I want to say Sidious, but if Yoda is aware of just how powerful Sidious is (which is not the case in their duel in RotS) and it's morals off then I say Yoda takes it.

#26 Posted by ShootingNova (15546 posts) - - Show Bio

@Manhunter_Prime said:

I want to say Sidious, but if Yoda is aware of just how powerful Sidious is (which is not the case in their duel in RotS) and it's morals off then I say Yoda takes it.

What......? Yoda knew he couldn't defeat Palpatine in RotS, as of the novelization.

@JediXMan: In general, the form is bad against great strength and heavily relies on successful outmaneuvering via footwork, the latter of which is difficult against many beings and the former, well, many beings have a lot of strength, so a Makashi user would get drained quickly.

Note that I am speaking from the view of an average master, not one of the greatest practitioners like Dooku.

#27 Posted by Manhunter_Prime (64 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova: He only figured that out at the end of the battle in the novel, he had no idea that Sidious was ready and waiting for him from the start. All I'm saying is that Yoda has a much better chance to win if he knows what he is getting into with Sidious. Which I suppose, if we are only using the prequel trilogy versions of the characters, he doesn't. In which case it doesn't matter and Sidious wins

#28 Posted by ShootingNova (15546 posts) - - Show Bio

@Manhunter_Prime: No, he doesn't. Sidious is just flat-out stronger than Yoda, has better feats, etc.

#29 Posted by Manhunter_Prime (64 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova: Well of course he has better feats, Yoda barely has any feats, especially after his battle with Sidious... so I guess in the context of a Battle Forum that only counts against him.

But I will concede that Yoda loses in the context of the prequel trilogy, especially since it is what actually happens....

#30 Posted by JediXMan (29563 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova:

That's a fair assessment. But I will say that quick footwork is incredibly affective in a duel, at least from a real-world perspective.

But yes, a master and a skilled user are different. So perhaps it's more fair to say that Makashi is good only if used by a skilled user. I feel like it would do better than Nimen or Shien (obviously better than Shien).

@Manhunter_Prime said:

@ShootingNova: Well of course he has better feats, Yoda barely has any feats, especially after his battle with Sidious... so I guess in the context of a Battle Forum that only counts against him.

But I will concede that Yoda loses in the context of the prequel trilogy, especially since it is what actually happens....

There is no reason to believe that Yoda was any stronger before the prequels. That was the first war the Republic had to fight in 1,000 years, and their first time encountering the Sith (as far a well know). So when would have have proven otherwise? And Yoda has very good feats; the fact that he lost to Palpatine is a good feat for Sidious, not a bad feat for Yoda.

#31 Edited by ShootingNova (15546 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: Yes, but Shii-Cho and Soresu are the best ones here.

And Yoda was in his prime during the Rise of the Empire era.

#32 Posted by JediXMan (29563 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@JediXMan: Yes, but Shii-Cho and Soresu are the best ones here.

Shii-Cho is too limited. It's very basic. If it's a skilled user vs other skilled user(s), then they're going to be left vulnerable; it might only be good amongst amateurs, or in one-on-one or even small groups of decent fighters. But amongst masters? I'd choose something else. I agree with Soresu. It's just personal preference on my part that I would choose Makashi - however, I do have a habit of hanging back and being defensive, so there's a little Soresu in me... and a bit of Ataru... I'm known for aggression.

#33 Posted by ShootingNova (15546 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: No, because Kreia explicitly states that Shii-Cho is the best form to fall back on when no other form will do (previously, I thought Niman might have been the better form, but I didn't know she said that until only a few years - 6 or 7 - ago).

Shii-Cho is good against multiple opponents/blades, or blaster fire. That's it's purpose. For one-on-one duels, it is bad, hence why Fisto couldn't do anything against Palpatine (of course, the largest factor was still Palpatine's massively superior speed and skill), and then we have him faring well against Grievous, who was using four blades.

Niman sounds like a good style for me:

This form seeks to balance the strengths of the previous forms through a combination of moderation and calm. A Jedi who has mastered Form VI wields amazing lightsaber skill, but does not focus on power or aggression.

-- Taken from Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

And Obi-Wan is a master of Form VI.

According to the book (and we know most of this already), the following users have mastery, or at least, proficiency, in the following forms:

Kit Fisto - Shii-Cho

Count Dooku - Makashi

Luminara Unduli - Soresu

Anakin Skywalker - Ataru

Aayla Secura - Shien

Obi-Wan Kenobi - Niman

Mace Windu - Juyo/Vaapad

Of course, better examples could have been chosen for some (such as Obi-Wan for Soresu, Yoda for Ataru, Anakin for Djem So [which is strangely omitted in the guide]).

#34 Posted by JediXMan (29563 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@JediXMan: No, because Kreia explicitly states that Shii-Cho is the best form to fall back on when no other form will do (previously, I thought Niman might have been the better form, but I didn't know she said that until only a few years - 6 or 7 - ago).

Shii-Cho is good against multiple opponents/blades, or blaster fire. That's it's purpose. For one-on-one duels, it is bad, hence why Fisto couldn't do anything against Palpatine (of course, the largest factor was still Palpatine's massively superior speed and skill), and then we have him faring well against Grievous, who was using four blades.

Niman sounds like a good style for me:

This form seeks to balance the strengths of the previous forms through a combination of moderation and calm. A Jedi who has mastered Form VI wields amazing lightsaber skill, but does not focus on power or aggression.

-- Taken from Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

And Obi-Wan is a master of Form VI.

According to the book (and we know most of this already), the following users have mastery, or at least, proficiency, in the following forms:

Kit Fisto - Shii-Cho

Count Dooku - Makashi

Luminara Unduli - Soresu

Anakin Skywalker - Ataru

Aayla Secura - Shien

Obi-Wan Kenobi - Niman

Mace Windu - Juyo/Vaapad

Of course, better examples could have been chosen for some (such as Obi-Wan for Soresu, Yoda for Ataru, Anakin for Djem So [which is strangely omitted in the guide]).

Why is Obi-Wan listed as the example for Niman? Yeah, fine, he knows Niman and is a master with it, but he is best known for Soresu - that is his primary style. Unless the purpose of that list is just so show general masters, but that doesn't make sense when the other lists mostly just show users who are known for those styles.

Honestly, when I think Djem So, I think of Luke more than I think of Anakin.

#35 Edited by ShootingNova (15546 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: That's my point. Windu said Obi-Wan is "the" master of Soresu, yet he is thrown in for Niman. I think Unduli got that spot for her body-avoiding skills.

The picture was of AotC Obi-Wan too, and back then Obi-Wan wasn't nearly the master of Soresu that he was in RotS. Although I didn't realize he had mastered Niman by then, either.

#36 Posted by Manhunter_Prime (64 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: I wasn't saying anything about Yoda being stronger before the prequels, all I was saying was that it might be possible that Yoda could win if he had prior knowledge of Sidious' power and if his morals were off. Which I concede, as I have already said, is unimportant because Yoda would not have prior knowledge in context of his prequel trilogy version.

As for feats, I should have clarified that in comparison to Sidious, he has barely any feats, not in the grand scheme.

#37 Posted by JediXMan (29563 posts) - - Show Bio

@Manhunter_Prime:

What would prior knowledge have given him?

He doesn't have barely any feats, even compared to Palpatine. It's just that Palpatine has more and they are better, because Palpatine is stronger, not because Yoda is weaker or because the feats aren't there.

#38 Posted by Tiamat (2087 posts) - - Show Bio

I know this is supposed to be a 'free for all' and morals are off, but I am wondering if the Jedi still would not team up first to take out the Sith in this competition and then fight amongst themselves.

#39 Edited by ShootingNova (15546 posts) - - Show Bio

@Tiamat: What stops the Sith from doing the same? While the other Sith keep the Jedi distracted, Palpatine could speedblitz several Jedi (since none of them except for Yoda can even react).

#40 Edited by ImBoredLetsDebate (456 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@Tiamat: What stops the Sith from doing the same? While the other Sith keep the Jedi distracted, Palpatine could speedblitz several Jedi (since none of them except for Yoda can even react).

There are only 3 Sith, 4 if you count GG.

Yoda could, arguably, react in time to stop him from speedblitzing several jedi, and narrow it down to 1-2, if any, or he could possibly speedblitz Maul, Dooku, and/or GG himself. And, if all of these people are at their highest power from TPM, AotC, and RotS, then Yoda can hold off Sidious for awhile, Mace Windu can defeat Dooku, he could defeat Maul, or he could hold of Sidious for a little (since he would be as powerful as he was when he was able to duel Sidious. Not before when he could have gotten speedblitzed, but when they were actually fighting, and he was able to react to Sidious when Anakin couldn't even see Sidious' strikes), Anakin and Obi-Wan can defeat Maul or possibly Dooku. I don't know if they would be able to defeat Dooku since he would be amped like he was on Vjun(?). Not sure how amped he was there. Fisto could take GG (again). And the rest of the jedi could come in where/when needed.

Also, I know on wookipedia it says that Quin-Gon was able to defeat/stalemate Windu/Dooku, but is there any truth to that?

#41 Posted by ShootingNova (15546 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImBoredLetsDebate: Umm..... not sure about Dooku. There's been more claims about Windu, but I don't know for certain. It might be in one of those junior reads - Jedi Quest or whatever it was called.

#42 Posted by Tank. (2063 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

What stops the Sith from doing the same? While the other Sith keep the Jedi distracted, Palpatine could speedblitz several Jedi (since none of them except for Yoda can even react).

Nothing. But as what was mentioned they are out numbered. If the battle was every man for himself. It seems majority all agree that Palpatin would end up winning this. However the what if, is that anyone who knows anything about mass battles. They are never fair and people gang up on others all the time. So would factoring this in have an effect on the end?

What I am trying to do is factor in these people 'In character' as if they were all dropped in this situation. How would it play out and who would go after who first. Could enough of them hold off Palpatine or possible take him out?

Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Ki-Adi-Mundi, Darth Maul, Darth Sidious, Anakin Skywalker, Mace Windu, Yoda, Count Dooku, Kit Fisto, Aayla Secura, Shaak Ti, General Grievous.

These are our contestants and now to fix them into the puzzle.

Windu could lead a contingent of most the Jedi here (Kit, Aayla, Shaak, and Mundi) to confront Sidious. (We saw how this turned out in the movie/novel. Most of them are doomed, but perhaps Windu can keep him busy long enough to be reinforced.)

While they try to defeat or contain the powerful Sith Lord. Yoda would engage Dooku, and I believe Yoda should be able to defeat Dooku.

Obi-Wan takes on Greivous just as he did in episode three, and we know the victor.

This leaves Anakin and Qui-gon to take on Maul. Which they should be able to do. Depending on which version of Anakin this happens to be is if I believe one of these Jedi die in the encounter.

---------

The survivors so far. Windu, Palpatine, Yoda, Obi-wan, Anakin, and Qui-gon. The question is can the remaining Jedi defeat the dark lord together? I would hope so, but I am honestly not sure.

If they can things get more technical from there.

#43 Posted by ShootingNova (15546 posts) - - Show Bio

@Tank.: Windu won't be keeping him occupied because Windu can't react. He was heavily amped during RotS.

#44 Posted by Tank. (2063 posts) - - Show Bio

@Tank.: So is the entire rumble a mismatch then? Would the entire group not have a chance?