He somehow muzzled a being that was on his way to become God. But he's still just a celestial and the entire showing is ambiguous, so he gets two spots.
Eternity/ Infinity - Chaos King
These guys are the most powerful characters here. Infinity / Eternity are two sides of the same coin, Chaos King is his equal and Eternity can't act against him.
Chaos War Hercules
Runner up, he was the only being left in the cosmos that could fight Chaos King after most of the multiverse had been consumed.
Insane Genis Vell
This guy remade the universe with a Bang.
Abraxas - Galactus
Galactus has some power over Abraxas, namely why he belittled him so much when the real deal, 616 Galactus appeared before Abraxas giving him a heart attack. Lately Galactus outlasted the Celestials against his Cancerverse counter part and went one on four with 4 alternate Celestials, having only snacked on about 5 ish planets in advance to save up energy to handle these folks.
Death / Oblivion
Death and Oblivion if I remember correctly are two sides of the same coin, Death actually putting down a universe before. Galactus seems able to fight her off though.
Scathan
This is where he should be.
TOAA Celestial
Celestials in general are made out to be god god gods, when cubed beings start saying nobody celestials are infinitely more powerful than them, it means something. If Galactus hadn't taken on four of the damn things recently, even winning till they Voltroned him, then when Franklin came in they tagged team the heck out of them, these guys dropped a little lower on the totem pole for me.
Spectre - Parallax
These haven't been a good couple of years for the Spectre, he at the very least will beat the tar out of Parallax.
Tiamut
What happened to this guy? And why is he being "lobotomized" in an X-men comic?
Imperiex
Galactus clone without anywhere close to the same power.
Anti-Monitor
Sadly, I haven't seen this guy do much of anything to put him ahead of anyone here.
I vote Anti Monitor for pure physical strength and CK for destructive ability. I am not sure the combined physical power does anything to cosmic entities like Death, Oblivz, Eternity and Infinity, I think it has more to do with energy projection power. Specter never defeated him, Superman got wrecked. AM would wreck everyone on this list with the Chaos King as the exception. I really don't see anyone else on this list even phasing either of them. Poor Galactus would be shredded, hes nowhere near that powerful. That would be the scariest fight I can imagine and I think I would see that as a Juggernaut vs Hulk type thing. Immovable object vs unstoppable force, and superman already answered the outcome to that question
Celestials in general are made out to be god god gods, when cubed beings start saying nobody celestials are infinitely more powerful than them, it means something. If Galactus hadn't taken on four of the damn things recently, even winning till they Voltroned him, then when Franklin came in they tagged team the heck out of them, these guys dropped a little lower on the totem pole for me.
Those were the Mad Celestials from Earth-4280 . As far as I remember , Galactus is yet to go up against the Earth-616 Celestials , and his only decent feat in comparison to them was apparently outlasting them against the Galactus Engine . Not to mention , that in that arc only Aegis was shown to be outright killed , and in their most recent appearance , the 616 Celestials appeared on Earth when they sensed that the Dreaming Celestial had been compromised by Mr Sinister .
You're point? They were Celestials that planned to take over the damn Multiverse, lol.
As far as I remember , Galactus is yet to go up against the Earth-616 Celestials , and his only decent feat in comparison to them was apparently outlasting them against the Galactus Engine .
I'd describe it more so as, the Celestails made a run for it when the Galactus Engine scared them off. Leaving Galactus to essentially be the last guardian of the 616 universe, preventing it's restructuring by the many angled ones. And he's the one that's supposed to be the one with actual weakness that prompts up when he uses his power, his hunger. Hell the fact the cancerverse weaponized their version of the devourer speaks volumes to his value.
At the end of the day, what the entirety of the abstracts struggled to contain / halt, Galactus ends up holding out on by himself. That includes the TOAA Celestial, Arishem, etc. They literally made a run for it.
Not to mention , that in that arc only Aegis was shown to be outright killed , and in their most recent appearance , the 616 Celestials appeared on Earth when they sensed that the Dreaming Celestial had been compromised by Mr Sinister .
Aegis does kick the bucket, which is a shame I wanted to see more from the Elder God twins. Good bet Tenebrous died too.
You're point? They were Celestials that planned to take over the damn Multiverse, lol.
They planned to take over the multiverse by invading the Council's HQ since it was a bridge to all points of reality. They barely succeeded, most of them were killed by the assorted Reeds wielding Starbrands/Infinity Gauntlets (god, has Hickman dragged the IG down) and even guns that could one-shot Celestials. At the end of it, there were only four left, and they were killed by Franklin and Galan.
It's not like they could conquer the multiverse without the bridge or anything like that.
They planned to take over the multiverse by invading the Council's HQ since it was a bridge to all points of reality. They barely succeeded, most of them were killed by the assorted Reeds wielding Starbrands/Infinity Gauntlets (god, has Hickman dragged the IG down) and even guns that could one-shot Celestials. At the end of it, there were only four left, and they were killed by Franklin and Galan.
It's not like they could conquer the multiverse without the bridge or anything like that.
I don't have much issues, oddly, with a bunch of Reeds coming up with plot guns that can destroy celestials. Although the nerfing of the IG was unnecessary, it doesn't seem like Bendis gave a damn when he had the reality gem on it's own spawning multiple universes in Avengers.
I completely get that, but they seemed confident now that they had access to the Multiverse they could pull it off in a Dalek kinda way.
Why do you think she cannot; she is, after all, who she is; always has been, always will be, who she is.
Yea, i think some of the guys on the list aren't technically alive, and I'm pretty sure i read in a doc strange comic somewhere that Eternity was basically the most powerful abstract.
#24
Posted by Owie
(2727 posts)
- 1 year, 3 days ago
- Show Bio
@isaac_clarke said:
Scathan
He somehow muzzled a being that was on his way to become God. But he's still just a celestial and the entire showing is ambiguous, so he gets two spots.
Eternity/ Infinity - Chaos King
These guys are the most powerful characters here. Infinity / Eternity are two sides of the same coin, Chaos King is his equal and Eternity can't act against him.
Chaos War Hercules
Runner up, he was the only being left in the cosmos that could fight Chaos King after most of the multiverse had been consumed.
Insane Genis Vell
This guy remade the universe with a Bang.
Abraxas - Galactus
Galactus has some power over Abraxas, namely why he belittled him so much when the real deal, 616 Galactus appeared before Abraxas giving him a heart attack. Lately Galactus outlasted the Celestials against his Cancerverse counter part and went one on four with 4 alternate Celestials, having only snacked on about 5 ish planets in advance to save up energy to handle these folks.
Death / Oblivion
Death and Oblivion if I remember correctly are two sides of the same coin, Death actually putting down a universe before. Galactus seems able to fight her off though.
Scathan
This is where he should be.
TOAA Celestial
Celestials in general are made out to be god god gods, when cubed beings start saying nobody celestials are infinitely more powerful than them, it means something. If Galactus hadn't taken on four of the damn things recently, even winning till they Voltroned him, then when Franklin came in they tagged team the heck out of them, these guys dropped a little lower on the totem pole for me.
Spectre - Parallax
These haven't been a good couple of years for the Spectre, he at the very least will beat the tar out of Parallax.
Tiamut
What happened to this guy? And why is he being "lobotomized" in an X-men comic?
Imperiex
Galactus clone without anywhere close to the same power.
Anti-Monitor
Sadly, I haven't seen this guy do much of anything to put him ahead of anyone here.
You're point? They were Celestials that planned to take over the damn Multiverse, lol.
Where was it mentioned that they planned to take over the multiverse ? To my knowledge they went insane because of the Council's "Solve Everything" crusade . Hickman has expanded upon this in the SHIELD arc . The Mad Celestials specifically targeted the Reeds . They invaded the 616 reality to kill the "final interloper" aka the 616 Reed .
@isaac_clarke said:
I'd describe it more so as, the Celestails made a run for it when the Galactus Engine scared them off. Leaving Galactus to essentially be the last guardian of the 616 universe, preventing it's restructuring by the many angled ones. And he's the one that's supposed to be the one with actual weakness that prompts up when he uses his power, his hunger. Hell the fact the cancerverse weaponized their version of the devourer speaks volumes to his value.
At the end of the day, what the entirety of the abstracts struggled to contain / halt, Galactus ends up holding out on by himself. That includes the TOAA Celestial, Arishem, etc. They literally made a run for it.
At the end of the day, its just Oblivion reciting a monologue, does Oblivion always tell the truth?
On an unrelated note, it was nice seeing Galactus, The Other and Scrier fight it out for a while :)
Except when you take into account both their respective natures , their relationship to Eternity , then its very difficult to dismiss this notion that Mikaboshi is an aspect of Oblivion . And Oblivion is talking to the reader here , what motive would he have to lie ? Not to mention that throughout the comic , his statements were spot on and honest , so why should he lie at this particular instance ?
Except when you take into account both their respective natures , their relationship to Eternity , then its very difficult to dismiss this notion that Mikaboshi is an aspect of Oblivion . And Oblivion is talking to the reader here , what motive would he have to lie ? Not to mention that throughout the comic , his statements were spot on and honest , so why should he lie at this particular instance ?
Well it doesnt add up to the feats Chaos King showed, i mean Oblivion = an abstract, Eternity has been stated to be the most powerful abstract and neither of them have what it takes to destroy 98% of the marvel multiverse, which Chaos King did. Also we know Mikaboshi as himself wasnt WOW powerful, he has been beaten before, it was after killing hell lords and stuffs like that he became what he actually was. His feats should put him well above oblivion, and hence him being a mere part of oblivion doesnt add up.
Except when you take into account both their respective natures , their relationship to Eternity , then its very difficult to dismiss this notion that Mikaboshi is an aspect of Oblivion . And Oblivion is talking to the reader here , what motive would he have to lie ? Not to mention that throughout the comic , his statements were spot on and honest , so why should he lie at this particular instance ?
Well it doesnt add up to the feats Chaos King showed, i mean Oblivion = an abstract, Eternity has been stated to be the most powerful abstract and neither of them have what it takes to destroy 98% of the marvel multiverse, which Chaos King did. Also we know Mikaboshi as himself wasnt WOW powerful, he has been beaten before, it was after killing hell lords and stuffs like that he became what he actually was. His feats should put him well above oblivion, and hence him being a mere part of oblivion doesnt add up.
No , Living Tribunal is the most powerful Abstract . Eternity/Infinity and Death/Oblivion coexist in an eternal stalemate , which is what makes sure that the LT never judges against their reality(s) , as LT maintains the multiversal balance . Also , in that same arc , Eternity essentially called Mikaboshi the "void that I m defined against" implying that they are equals .
It doesn't really matter what insane feats he had in Chaos War arc . His status has been officially retconned as being a mere aspect of Oblivion , and it is the latest , so I wouldn't try to dispute an on-panel fact .
No , Living Tribunal is the most powerful Abstract . Eternity/Infinity and Death/Oblivion coexist in an eternal stalemate , which is what makes sure that the LT never judges against their reality(s) , as LT maintains the multiversal balance . Also , in that same arc , Eternity essentially called Mikaboshi the "void that I m defined against" implying that they are equals .
It doesn't really matter what insane feats he had in Chaos War arc . His status has been officially retconned as being a mere aspect of Oblivion , and it is the latest , so I wouldn't try to dispute an on-panel fact .
Living Tribunal is a cosmic judge and not an abstract, but of course if LT was to be included its the most powerful, but apart from that Eternity/ Infinity who now are one and the same is the most powerful abstract in a universe, it has been so ever since Secret Wars way back. Remember when Thanos got IG? He was the most powerful in the universe and hence he was to replace Eternity as the supreme being of the universe, that is one reason why LT did not join the conflict during the IG saga, because to his eyes it was survival of the fittest.
All Eternity did was state himself to be the universe, while Chaos King to be the outer void, that no way implies they are equal. All it said was he walks hand in hand with Chaos King, and hence fighting him is like fighting himself. Eternity cant destroy 98% of marvel multiverse, which Chaos King did it simply put him above Eternity.
Nothing has actually been retconned, marvel does normally announce when there is a big retcon. Also all Oblivion said was Chaos King was a mere aspect of Obvilion, doesnt mean he's less powerful than him, and thats because when he began as a Mikaboshi (a part of obvilion) he was nothing compared to powerful abstract, heck he wasnt even an abstract level. But in due process he start consuming energy, beating hell lords and his energy grow. So even if he started as a mere part of Oblivion, he has feats to prove he now is more powerful than Oblivion who's what Eternity's equal.
Where was it mentioned that they planned to take over the multiverse?
No idea why people ask questions to something a well searched google provides.
To my knowledge they went insane because of the Council's "Solve Everything" crusade . Hickman has expanded upon this in the SHIELD arc . The Mad Celestials specifically targeted the Reeds . They invaded the 616 reality to kill the "final interloper" aka the 616 Reed.
Why would Galactus put so much effort into stopping them then? Reed wasn't their only target and the council more or less wanted to sacrifice 616 to stop them from continuing their little quest for multiversal domination, that Reed also put high on his list of bad stuff.
How exactly does that contradict my point ?
You it was "outlasting" them, when there was a bit more context behind it. Essentially the entire force Celestials there ran away to avoid their demise at the hands of the Galactus engine. They left the entire universe's defense up to Galactus, who continued to hold off his weaponized counter part and he's the one with a limited amount of time to fight at that level by comparison.
In that depiction Galactus was more powerful than the Celestials.
Where was it mentioned that they planned to take over the multiverse?
No idea why people ask questions to something a well searched google provides .
And where exactly does it mention that they planned to take over the multiverse ?
@isaac_clarke said:
@Hyper_God said:
To my knowledge they went insane because of the Council's "Solve Everything" crusade . Hickman has expanded upon this in the SHIELD arc . The Mad Celestials specifically targeted the Reeds . They invaded the 616 reality to kill the "final interloper" aka the 616 Reed.
Why would Galactus put so much effort into stopping them then? Reed wasn't their only target and the council more or less wanted to sacrifice 616 to stop them from continuing their little quest for multiversal domination, that Reed also put high on his list of bad stuff.
Galactus explicitly told Reed that the availability of the Galactus Seed(and the potential risk of it releasing a new entity who could bring about the end of the universe) on Earth was the only reason he was willing to come to his aid , and the reason why he gave him the Arc. The Mad Celestials' destruction of Earth would have prematurely released the gestalt being within the seed , and Galactus was afraid that it would lack restraint and "everything would end sooner" .
@isaac_clarke said:
@Hyper_God said:
You it was "outlasting" them, when there was a bit more context behind it. Essentially the entire force Celestials there ran away to avoid their demise at the hands of the Galactus engine. They left the entire universe's defense up to Galactus, who continued to hold off his weaponized counter part and he's the one with a limited amount of time to fight at that level by comparison.
In that depiction Galactus was more powerful than the Celestials.
Again , how exactly does this contradict my point ? At the end of the day , Galactus did outlast the 616-Celestials during the battle against the GE , whatever way you look at it . That's his only decent feat in comparison to them .
And where exactly does it mention that they planned to take over the multiverse ?
Don't play dumb, it doesn't suit you. You know exactly what they are saying in that scan, you don't need me to translate what it meant.
Galactus explicitly told Reed that the availability of the Galactus Seed(and the potential risk of it releasing a new entity who could bring about the end of the universe) on Earth was the only reason he was willing to come to his aid , and the reason why he gave him the Arc. The Mad Celestials' destruction of Earth would have prematurely released the gestalt being within the seed , and Galactus was afraid that it would lack restraint and "everything would end sooner" .
That was one reason, Galactus however reveals he knows exactly what they're planning to do from the get-go of challenging them. The Celestials start flipping out Darlek style saying "IT KNOWS, IT KNOWS!"
Again , how exactly does this contradict my point ? At the end of the day , Galactus did outlast the 616-Celestials during the battle against the GE , whatever way you look at it . That's his only decent feat in comparison to them .
I added context, rather than just saying "he out-lasted" the Celestials, when the fact the Celestials literally retreated and left the saving of the cosmos to Galactus. That isn't his only decent feat by comparison, given the slew of times Galactus is preventing the destruction of the cosmos (sometimes even instigating it by fighting) or what have you while the Celestials do a lot of nothing.
No , Living Tribunal is the most powerful Abstract . Eternity/Infinity and Death/Oblivion coexist in an eternal stalemate , which is what makes sure that the LT never judges against their reality(s) , as LT maintains the multiversal balance . Also , in that same arc , Eternity essentially called Mikaboshi the "void that I m defined against" implying that they are equals .
It doesn't really matter what insane feats he had in Chaos War arc . His status has been officially retconned as being a mere aspect of Oblivion , and it is the latest , so I wouldn't try to dispute an on-panel fact .
Living Tribunal is a cosmic judge and not an abstract, but of course if LT was to be included its the most powerful, but apart from that Eternity/ Infinity who now are one and the same is the most powerful abstract in a universe, it has been so ever since Secret Wars way back. Remember when Thanos got IG? He was the most powerful in the universe and hence he was to replace Eternity as the supreme being of the universe, that is one reason why LT did not join the conflict during the IG saga, because to his eyes it was survival of the fittest.
Actually , the Tribunal is indeed an Abstract , as it represents all three fundamental concepts:Necessity,Equity,and Vengeance . So , you agree that Eternity isn't the most powerful Abstract ? Good . Now , Eternity and Death are indeed equals , and their stalemate is what ensures the balance of their reality , which prevents the LT from negatively judging against it . Eternity is the conceptual embodiment of all time , Infinity is of Space . They both represent Necessity . Death , by her name sake alone , represents death , and Oblivion embodies the empty Void , the abyss of nothingness , that was before all creation , and the void/emptiness to which everything will return at the end . Both Death and Oblivion are the embodiments of Vengeance , and their relationship mirrors that of Eternity/Infinity . Thanos with the IG was superior to Eternity , just as he was superior to every other Abstract under LT .
However , you should also note that Maelstorm , when he possessed the power of the entity Anomaly , along with the Nega Bands(and some other minor objects) , was able to withstand a direct blast from a PISSED OFF IG-Thanos . This same version of Maelstorm , a few issues later , was depicted as being inferior to Oblivion .Although , it could possibly be because of Maelstorm's status as an Avatar of Oblivion(similar to Thanos'statu as an Avatar of Death) . Just some food for thought .
@Killemall said:
@Hyper_God said:
No , Living Tribunal is the most powerful Abstract . Eternity/Infinity and Death/Oblivion coexist in an eternal stalemate , which is what makes sure that the LT never judges against their reality(s) , as LT maintains the multiversal balance . Also , in that same arc , Eternity essentially called Mikaboshi the "void that I m defined against" implying that they are equals .
It doesn't really matter what insane feats he had in Chaos War arc . His status has been officially retconned as being a mere aspect of Oblivion , and it is the latest , so I wouldn't try to dispute an on-panel fact
All Eternity did was state himself to be the universe, while Chaos King to be the outer void, that no way implies they are equal. All it said was he walks hand in hand with Chaos King, and hence fighting him is like fighting himself. Eternity cant destroy 98% of marvel multiverse, which Chaos King did it simply put him above Eternity.
Eternity explicitly mentions that the Chaos King is the "Void against which I am defined . Fighting him is akin to fighting myself " . And him destroying 98.76% of the multiverse is no big deal , considering how the Odin-Seth battle rocked the fabric of the multiverse , while the battle between 2 incomplete Cosmic Cube Beings(Post-Retcon Beyonder and Post-retcon Molecule Man) caused trans-multiversal damage to reality .
Nothing has actually been retconned, marvel does normally announce when there is a big retcon. Also all Oblivion said was Chaos King was a mere aspect of Obvilion, doesnt mean he's less powerful than him, and thats because when he began as a Mikaboshi (a part of obvilion) he was nothing compared to powerful abstract, heck he wasnt even an abstract level. But in due process he start consuming energy, beating hell lords and his energy grow. So even if he started as a mere part of Oblivion, he has feats to prove he now is more powerful than Oblivion who's what Eternity's equal.
Yes , it has been retconned , otherwise Marvel wouldn't bother to write an entire freaking Annual , and devote an entire page to a (forgettable)character from one of their biggest flop-events .
Sorry , but that's just the way it is . On-panel evidence > personal opinion .
And where exactly does it mention that they planned to take over the multiverse ?
Don't play dumb, it doesn't suit you. You know exactly what they are saying in that scan, you don't need me to translate what it meant .
"This place leads to all others-we would have all of it ." So they wanted to get to all the other Reeds and take over the Bridge(according to the scan you yourself provided) . Great . Now tell me ,where is the term "multiverse" mentioned in that scan ?
@isaac_clarke said:
That was one reason, Galactus however reveals he knows exactly what they're planning to do from the get-go of challenging them. The Celestials start flipping out Darlek style saying "IT KNOWS, IT KNOWS!"
@Hyper_God said:
Galactus explicitly told Reed that the availability of the Galactus Seed(and the potential risk of it releasing a new entity who could bring about the end of the universe) on Earth was the only reason he was willing to come to his aid , and the reason why he gave him the Arc. The Mad Celestials' destruction of Earth would have prematurely released the gestalt being within the seed , and Galactus was afraid that it would lack restraint and "everything would end sooner" .That was one reason, Galactus however reveals he knows exactly what they're planning to do from the get-go of challenging them. The Celestials start flipping out Darlek style saying "IT KNOWS, IT KNOWS!"
Considering , how later , in that very arc , the Celestials' purpose was revealed as the extermination of the final Reed , this scan from you again proves nothing .
@isaac_clarke said:
Again , how exactly does this contradict my point ? At the end of the day , Galactus did outlast the 616-Celestials during the battle against the GE , whatever way you look at it . That's his only decent feat in comparison to them .
I added context, rather than just saying "he out-lasted" the Celestials, when the fact the Celestials literally retreated and left the saving of the cosmos to Galactus. That isn't his only decent feat by comparison, given the slew of times Galactus is preventing the destruction of the cosmos (sometimes even instigating it by fighting) or what have you while the Celestials do a lot of nothing.
Still don't understand how this interpretation differs from him oulasting the 616 Celestials . And it is his only decent feat in comparison to the 616 Celestials , considering how kid Franklin Richards(confirmed twice to be an equal to a 616 Celestial) brought an AMPED Mephisto to his knees in the latter's own realm , and then when that amp got removed , shattered Mephisto's essence into 6 parts , while Galactus was only able to stalemate Mephisto under his own power , and had to eventually resort(at the Surfer's suggestion nonetheless) to devouring Hades to force Mephisto to give up his herald .
Plus Arishem wasn't even budged by Odin,Zeus AND Vishnu , while Galactus had his hands full with just Odin himself in their most recent confrontation .
As I said before , looking at such showings , it isn't far-fetched to assume that in the mainstream 616 universe , Galactus' only decent feat in comparison to the Celestials is the GE-cancerverse invasion incident .
"This place leads to all others-we would have all of it ." So they wanted to get to the all the other Reeds and , take over the Bridge(according to the scan you yourself provided) . Great . Now tell ,where is the term multiverse mentioned in that scan ?"
This is ridiculous, there's a different from Skepticism and being oblivious:
"THIS PLACE LEADS TO ALL OTHERS--WE WOULD HAVE ALL OF IT."
What was the place? The bridge gave them access to the multiverse, which they then say, will have all of. You trying to spin it into them wanted to "get" all the other Reeds is a bit silly when that isn't the case.
Considering , how later , in that very arc , the Celestials' purpose was revealed as the extermination of the final Reed , this scan from you again proves nothing .
Except Galactus knows exactly what the Mad Celestials are up to. Why would they care if he "knows" they are out to kill Reed?
Still don't understand how this interpretation differs from him oulasting the 616 Celestials . And it is his only decent feat in comparison to the 616 Celestials , considering how kid Franklin Richards(confirmed twice to be an equal to a 616 Celestial) brought an AMPED Mephisto to his knees in the latter's own realm , and then when that amp got removed , shattered Mephisto's essence into 6 parts , while Galactus was only able to stalemate Mephisto under his own power , and had to eventually resort(at the Surfer's suggestion nonetheless) to devouring Hades to force Mephisto to give up his herald .
Because the Celestials ran away out of fear, not because they ran out of power or Galactus was "outlasting" their power.
It's interesting when you call it stalemate when what allowed Mephisto to fight Galactus was the power of his realm, which the moment Galactus begins to devour Mephisto immediately concedes to all his demands. Sounds like someone won that confrontation. The Surfer cried out for Galactus to end the fight, not suggesting he devour the realm, because the fight was going to destroy the universe. Galactus at the time didn't give a damn and just budded heads with Mephisto till his former herald reached out.
It's funny you bring up Franklin though. He couldn't handle the Mad Celestials on his own with additional power added by his younger self. Even then after killing only one of them, the two of them blasting him had him resort to reviving Galactus, who proceeds to do the fighting for him until he gets blasted back and Franklin takes down the final Celestial by committing suicide for some reason.
Galactus came out in that fight looking a lot better overall than Franklin's future self.
Plus Arishem wasn't even budged by Odin,Zeus AND Vishnu , while Galactus had his hands full with just Odin himself in their most recent confrontation .
By hands full, you mean fighting each other in their heads, Galactus winning despite every advantage awarded to Odin. Odin then throws everything he has at him, they fall to Earth, Galactus gets up none worse for wear and Odin hops straight into the Destroyer to fight him, because he didn't have the power on his own to continue.
And this was a Galactus that more or less was still living off of a previous meal he had prior to the Surfer's arrival. Not to let these littler factoids get in the way of your narrative interpretations, but Galactus when he devoured four worlds was more or less a match four the four Celestials, prompting them to pull a manuever that has them fuse into a super being to beat him, using the corpse of their comrade. Galactus at these levels of power would have kicked Odin to the curb.
As I said before , looking at such showings , it isn't far-fetched to assume that in the mainstream 616 universe , Galactus' only decent feat in comparison to the Celestials is the GE-cancerverse invasion .
The Celestials need actual feats outside scaring cubed beings and punking out the Destroyer to say they look good by comparison to Galactus, since he actually gets stories to accumulate these feats. Even his alternate incarnations have better showings to boot then them.
The rule with abstracts is that they cannot supplant each other. If one dies, then an imbalance comes which leads to either his restoration or the change with all abstracts.
"This place leads to all others-we would have all of it ." So they wanted to get to the all the other Reeds and , take over the Bridge(according to the scan you yourself provided) . Great . Now tell ,where is the term multiverse mentioned in that scan ?"
This is ridiculous, there's a different from Skepticism and being oblivious:
"THIS PLACE LEADS TO ALL OTHERS--WE WOULD HAVE ALL OF IT."
What was the place? The bridge gave them access to the multiverse, which they then say, will have all of. You trying to spin it into them wanted to "get" all the other Reeds is a bit silly when that isn't the case.
Except , that entire arc , along with their subsequent invasion of 616 , clearly showed that were obsessed with getting to the Reeds . It is what it is . They saw that the place(i.e the Bridge) lead to all the other Reeds , and they wanted it all for themselves .
@isaac_clarke said:
@Hyper_God said:
Considering , how later , in that very arc , the Celestials' purpose was revealed as the extermination of the final Reed , this scan from you again proves nothing .
Except Galactus knows exactly what the Mad Celestials are up to. Why would they care if he "knows" they are out to kill Reed?
Yes , and they were there with the intention of killing the last Reed . Galactus also knows that Reed has a universally significant intelligence(its mentioned in that same panel in which Galactus revealed to Reed that he feared the outcome of a potential confrontation with Franklin) . Go figure .
@isaac_clarke said:
@Hyper_God said:
Still don't understand how this interpretation differs from him oulasting the 616 Celestials . And it is his only decent feat in comparison to the 616 Celestials , considering how kid Franklin Richards(confirmed twice to be an equal to a 616 Celestial) brought an AMPED Mephisto to his knees in the latter's own realm , and then when that amp got removed , shattered Mephisto's essence into 6 parts , while Galactus was only able to stalemate Mephisto under his own power , and had to eventually resort(at the Surfer's suggestion nonetheless) to devouring Hades to force Mephisto to give up his herald .
Because the Celestials ran away out of fear, not because they ran out of power or Galactus was "outlasting" their power.
It's interesting when you call it stalemate when what allowed Mephisto to fight Galactus was the power of his realm, which the moment Galactus begins to devour Mephisto immediately concedes to all his demands. Sounds like someone won that confrontation. The Surfer cried out for Galactus to end the fight, not suggesting he devour the realm, because the fight was going to destroy the universe. Galactus at the time didn't give a damn and just budded heads with Mephisto till his former herald reached out.
It's funny you bring up Franklin though. He couldn't handle the Mad Celestials on his own with additional power added by his younger self. Even then after killing only one of them, the two of them blasting him had him resort to reviving Galactus, who proceeds to do the fighting for him until he gets blasted back and Franklin takes down the final Celestial by committing suicide for some reason.
Galactus came out in that fight looking a lot better overall than Franklin's future self.
You think the Celestials fled because of fear . I think they retreated because they realized the futility of fighting the GE . The comic itself isn't completely clear as to why they retreated . However , either way , you look at it , Galactus was the last cosmic standing , and he outlasted those Celestials along with 2 Proemial Gods . A greater showing , no doubt , in his favor .
The Galactus-Mephisto fight was indeed a stalemate , until Galactus began devouring Hades (that too upon the Surfer's suggestion) . It was very clear in those panels , that the Surfer , while initially being ignored by Galactus , eventually managed to get his master's attention , and upon "understanding" from their communication , Galactus immediately began devouring Hades , which is what forced Mephisto to yield his herald .
As far Franklin goes , he DESTROYED Mephisto in Hades . Prior to that , when Mephisto was being AMPED by the additional power from the evil of the Dire Wraiths , Franklin brough him to his knees , smoldering in his own realm . Once the Dire Wraith amp was removed , Franklin pulverized Mephisto .
As far as F4#604 is concerned , Adult Franklin marginally outperformed the 4 planet-amped Galactus , by tanking more intense blasts from 3 of them , while fatally shattering the first Celestial whom he killed , unlike the 4-panet-amped-Galactus who , while being able to kill a Mad Celestial , couldn't shatter its form , and the intact dead body of this Celestial was immediately used by the remainder to merge into a Computron-style Celestial .
Also , the blue orb supplied by kid Franklin was used for rejuvenating Galactus . Plus , adult Franklin never committed suicide in that arc . Where did you get that from ?
@isaac_clarke said:
@Hyper_God said:
Plus Arishem wasn't even budged by Odin,Zeus AND Vishnu , while Galactus had his hands full with just Odin himself in their most recent confrontation .
By hands full, you mean fighting each other in their heads, Galactus winning despite every advantage awarded to Odin. Odin then throws everything he has at him, they fall to Earth, Galactus gets up none worse for wear and Odin hops straight into the Destroyer to fight him, because he didn't have the power on his own to continue.
I know that Galactus won that fight . However , it wasn't the sort of humiliating stomp which the Celestials had against an Asgard+Odin-amped Destroyer .
As far as their telepathic battle is concerned , it was a stalemate up until the point where Galactus strode upon the Serpent-related memories of Odin . I would actually call it a high showing for Odin , considering how Oblivion described Galactus as having impenetrable thoughts in the recent Thor Annual .
@isaac_clarke said:
@Hyper_God said:
And this was a Galactus that more or less was still living off of a previous meal he had prior to the Surfer's arrival. Not to let these littler factoids get in the way of your narrative interpretations, but Galactus when he devoured four worlds was more or less a match four the four Celestials, prompting them to pull a manuever that has them fuse into a super being to beat him, using the corpse of their comrade. Galactus at these levels of power would have kicked Odin to the curb.
I don't understand what's the point of bringing this up , as I share this point of view , that a 4-planet-amped Galacus would own Odin , Destroyer or no Destroyer .
@isaac_clarke said:
@Hyper_God said:
The Celestials need actual feats outside scaring cubed beings and punking out the Destroyer to say they look good by comparison to Galactus, since he actually gets stories to accumulate these feats. Even his alternate incarnations have better showings to boot then them.
The few feats they do have , which include Arishem's showing against 3 skyfathers , Tiamut destroying the entire Horde , the High Evolutionary reversing the effects of Wanda's spell on Magneto's X-Gene using a minor component of a lobotomized Celestial , Kubik's testimony ,(all the Celestials I am using as an example here are mainstream 616 versions) put them individually above an average Galactus . A high-end Galactus , like the one from the original Secret Wars arc , who devoured his Worldship to battle the Beyonder , on the other hand , is a different story .
Since there's no BFR some of these characters CAN die. Them being Eternity, Infinity, Chaos King, IGV,Hal Jordan, Anti-Monitor, Imparilax, Galactus, Hercules, Spectre, Abraxus
They will be the 1st characters to die...
However some of them can't:
Celestial OAA: No one has ever "killed" a Celestial in comic history. Only destroyed their armor. Destroying an armor doesn't mean destroying a Celestial.
Death: Is what she is... You can't kill death
Oblivion: Is what comes after death. It is the point of non-existence and Oblivion is the one that takes all what existed and turns it into nothing. Memory doesn't even exist anymore when there's nothing to remember.
The one who's going to win in the end is of course Oblivion. 2nd would be Death. and the 2 Celestials are unknown.
Except , that entire arc , along with their subsequent invasion of 616 , clearly showed that were obsessed with getting to the Reeds . It is what it is . They saw that the place(i.e the Bridge) lead to all the other Reeds , and they wanted it all for themselves .
We aren't talking about the entire arc. You wanted to know when the Celestials ever established their goal to take over the multiverse. I posted a scan that says exactly that. Your interpretations of it however for some reason go to them wanting to get all the Reed Richards out there for themselves, which doesn't even make sense to begin with.
It was a bridge to all other realities, which they wanted everything there was.
Yes , and they were there with the intention of killing the last Reed . Galactus also knows that Reed has a universally significant intelligence(its mentioned in that same panel in which Galactus revealed to Reed that he feared the outcome of a potential confrontation with Franklin) . Go figure .
You're putting too much emphasis on Reed, rather than what Galactus was there to stop. Nothing I say will change that so I'll drop it, since you are more or less content with believing this nonsensical interpretation of events despite whatever I post, bar Hickman himself saying it.
You think the Celestials fled because of fear . I think they retreated because they realized the futility of fighting the GE . The comic itself isn't completely clear as to why they retreated . However , either way , you look at it , Galactus was the last cosmic standing , and he outlasted those Celestials along with 2 Proemial Gods . A greater showing , no doubt , in his favor .
The futility of the fight was a part of it, but also the fact the Galactus engine was putting their forces down and they left to leave Galactus on the battlefield shows their lack of resolve to keep fighting in order to keep themselves from perishing.
The Galactus-Mephisto fight was indeed a stalemate , until Galactus began devouring Hades (that too upon the Surfer's suggestion) . It was very clear in those panels , that the Surfer , while initially being ignored by Galactus , eventually managed to get his master's attention , and upon "understanding" from their communication , Galactus immediately began devouring Hades , which is what forced Mephisto to yield his herald .
Since when has Mephisto's realm been referred to as Hades? Actually you're right, the Surfer sent him a plea and a plan. Through that telepathic thought. It forced Mephisto to end the fight and submit to Galactus' demands.
How can people argue it's a stalemate when Galactus gets everything he wanted I have no idea.
As far Franklin goes , he DESTROYED Mephisto in Hades . Prior to that , when Mephisto was being AMPED by the additional power from the evil of the Dire Wraiths , Franklin brough him to his knees , smoldering in his own realm . Once the Dire Wraith amp was removed , Franklin pulverized Mephisto .
And an amped future Franklin with full access to his powers couldn't handle the mad celestials on his own and even with Galactus, killed himself to finish one off. Mephisto himself is a jobber so it doesn't matter what Franklin did in his realm.
As far as F4#604 is concerned , Adult Franklin marginally outperformed the 4 planet-amped Galactus , by tanking more intense blasts from 3 of them , while fatally shattering the first Celestial whom he killed , unlike the 4-panet-amped-Galactus who , while being able to kill a Mad Celestial , couldn't shatter its form , and the intact dead body of this Celestial was immediately used by the remainder to merge into a Computron-style Celestial .
Minus the fact Galan was fighting off all four of them attacking him at once, the fight prompting everyone to leave or be destroyed. The Adult Franklin amped tanked individual shots from them, not a combined shot. It only took two or three shots before he brought Galactus in to help him, who took on the rest of the punishment and fighting on his own till Franklin killed himself to finish the last one.
Galactus was tearing one of the Mad Celestials in half upon his rejuvenation in that fight, so this "inability" to shatter their form is redundant when Adult Franklin didn't punk out the super Celestial either, a plot gun the Reed's used did.
I know that Galactus won that fight . However , it wasn't the sort of humiliating stomp which the Celestials had against an Asgard+Odin-amped Destroyer .
They actually went to exchange blasts, so it's hard to say Galactus wouldn't melt down the Destroyer.
As far as their telepathic battle is concerned , it was a stalemate up until the point where Galactus strode upon the Serpent-related memories of Odin . I would actually call it a high showing for Odin , considering how Oblivion described Galactus as having impenetrable thoughts in the recent Thor Annual .
Odin was the first one to break it off to go out and attack Galactus because of his frustration during it, so I'd Galactus was winning that fight. And that was with Thor slamming into Galactus' head.
I don't understand what's the point of bringing this up , as I share this point of view , that a 4-planet-amped Galacus would own Odin , Destroyer or no Destroyer .
Okay then.
The few feats they do have , which include Arishem's showing against 3 skyfathers , Tiamut destroying the entire Horde , the High Evolutionary reversing the effects of Wanda's spell on Magneto's X-Gene using a minor component of a lobotomized Celestial , Kubik's testimony ,(all the Celestials I am using as an example here are mainstream 616 versions) put them individually above an average Galactus . A high-end Galactus , like the one from the original Secret Wars arc , who devoured his Worldship to battle the Beyonder , on the other hand , is a different story .
"Average" Galactus has better showings without having to devour anything however. Starving Galactus I'd understand.
These are from Fantastic Four 341 I believe. In this story arc, Galactus consume Tiamat. It is also revealed that Galactus is a weapon created by Tiamat in this story arc. Of course, Galactus these days is a leftover being from the previous universe, and I dunno if this Galactus is as powerful or more powerful than 616 Galactus, but it does show that "a" Galactus was capable of consuming Universes, and all of Time/Space.
Explanation of Tiamut creating Galactus:
Talks about him consuming Tiamut
Learn to combat him with his own weapon (UN)
Devour the Omniverse? Yeah, he can do that.
I will admit, Galactus has revealed that he is subject to Death's touch
Galactus has defeated the Phoenix (This one might be Jean as it's avatar)
Galactus teaches the Phoenix (I think Rachel is acting as it's avatar here)
Galactus teaches the Phoenix pt. 2 (I don't remember which avatar this is, sorry)
Galactus takes the Galactus Engine from the future (the Celestials were scared of it!)
Four Celestials Blast him (I think this kills him though) (this is in an alternate Universe where Galactus is defending the Earth, Celestials are there to take out Reed Richards)
Why I think full powered Galactus could take this:
Ultimate Nullifier - This weapon could threaten almost anyone else in this fight, it is one of the most dangerous weapons in the known universe.
Alternate Timeline Galactus - Galactus often states he only eats to satiate his hunger. I am not 100%, but it is possible that this Galactus is what may happen if Galactus fully gives into his hunger
I can't find the scan, but a bunch of abstracts come together and blast Galactus, and he survives
Galactus, to me, is the one who least afraid of confrontation. Galactus may be extremely confident, but he is also fearless. I think he would destroy and consume, and at the end of a fight with any of these beings, he'd come out stronger than where he started.
He's been going around eating Celestials when they sleep (which makes me laugh). Turns out, Galactus has been consuming newly created Celestials for a long time, and they've never risked a confrontation with him (which to me, means they are probably not too eager to confront him).
Except , that entire arc , along with their subsequent invasion of 616 , clearly showed that were obsessed with getting to the Reeds . It is what it is . They saw that the place(i.e the Bridge) lead to all the other Reeds , and they wanted it all for themselves .
We aren't talking about the entire arc. You wanted to know when the Celestials ever established their goal to take over the multiverse. I posted a scan that says exactly that. Your interpretations of it however for some reason go to them wanting to get all the Reed Richards out there for themselves, which doesn't even make sense to begin with.
It was a bridge to all other realities, which they wanted everything there was.
Except , within the scan you provided the term "multiverse" isn't mentioned anywhere . Hickman very clearly showed them being obsessed with those Reeds , and he has hinted in SHIELD that the "Solve Everything" objective of the Council was what drove those Celestials insane .
@isaac_clarke said:
@Hyper_God said:
Yes , and they were there with the intention of killing the last Reed . Galactus also knows that Reed has a universally significant intelligence(its mentioned in that same panel in which Galactus revealed to Reed that he feared the outcome of a potential confrontation with Franklin) . Go figure .
You're putting too much emphasis on Reed, rather than what Galactus was there to stop. Nothing I say will change that so I'll drop it, since you are more or less content with believing this nonsensical interpretation of events despite whatever I post, bar Hickman himself saying it.
Galactus made it clear to Reed in #600 , that he had Earth in his interests only because of the presence of the Galactus Seed on it . For this reason , he was willing to defend the planet . Those Mad Celestials came to 616 for the sole purpose of killing the final Reed , and this much was made clear in the subsequent arc . Its not a nonsensical interpretation , its a logical , literalistic interpretation of the on-panel evidence available at hand .
@isaac_clarke said:
@Hyper_God said:
The futility of the fight was a part of it, but also the fact the Galactus engine was putting their forces down and they left to leave Galactus on the battlefield shows their lack of resolve to keep fighting in order to keep themselves from perishing.
I have always maintained that it was a better showing for Galactus than for the Celestials , in that particular arc .
@isaac_clarke said:
@Hyper_God said:
Since when has Mephisto's realm been referred to as Hades? Actually you're right, the Surfer sent him a plea and a plan. Through that telepathic thought. It forced Mephisto to end the fight and submit to Galactus' demands.
How can people argue it's a stalemate when Galactus gets everything he wanted I have no idea.
Read my words again . It was a stalemate up until Galactus began devouring Mephisto's realm .
As far Franklin goes , he DESTROYED Mephisto in Hades . Prior to that , when Mephisto was being AMPED by the additional power from the evil of the Dire Wraiths , Franklin brough him to his knees , smoldering in his own realm . Once the Dire Wraith amp was removed , Franklin pulverized Mephisto .
And an amped future Franklin with full access to his powers couldn't handle the mad celestials on his own and even with Galactus, killed himself to finish one off. Mephisto himself is a jobber so it doesn't matter what Franklin did in his realm.
I have already mentioned that the blue orb was used for rejuvenating Galactus . Adult Franklin fought the Mad Celestials under his own power . He never killed himself . Both he and Galactus were able to kill 2 Celestials each , however , while Franklin kill-shattered both under his own power , Galactus was able to do so to the 2nd Celestial , only after getting young Franklin's power -up .Mephisto wan't just in his realm when Franklin destroyed him , he was also being amped by the Dire Wraiths' evil .
@isaac_clarke said:
@Hyper_God said:
As far as F4#604 is concerned , Adult Franklin marginally outperformed the 4 planet-amped Galactus , by tanking more intense blasts from 3 of them , while fatally shattering the first Celestial whom he killed , unlike the 4-panet-amped-Galactus who , while being able to kill a Mad Celestial , couldn't shatter its form , and the intact dead body of this Celestial was immediately used by the remainder to merge into a Computron-style Celestial .
Minus the fact Galan was fighting off all four of them attacking him at once, the fight prompting everyone to leave or be destroyed. The Adult Franklin amped tanked individual shots from them, not a combined shot. It only took two or three shots before he brought Galactus in to help him, who took on the rest of the punishment and fighting on his own till Franklin killed himself to finish the last one.
Galactus was tearing one of the Mad Celestials in half upon his rejuvenation in that fight, so this "inability" to shatter their form is redundant when Adult Franklin didn't punk out the super Celestial either, a plot gun the Reed's used did.
When Galactus fought them , their blasts weren't as intense as those against Franklin . Also , in the very first panel of his fight , Franklin tanked 2 combined shots from 2 Celestials at the same time , both of which were much more intense than what Galactus got .
Galactus tore the Mad Celestial , after he got rejuvenated by the blue-orb supplied by kid Franklin . Thus Galactus was able to do what he did , when he was being empowered by kid Franklin's power .
@isaac_clarke said:
@Hyper_God said:
I know that Galactus won that fight . However , it wasn't the sort of humiliating stomp which the Celestials had against an Asgard+Odin-amped Destroyer .
They actually went to exchange blasts, so it's hard to say Galactus wouldn't melt down the Destroyer.
Actually , Galactus and the Destroyer only stared each other down , along with exuding golden and purple streaks of energy from themselves , each trying to intimidate the other . Galactus was ready to get it on with the Destroyer , until Surfer telepathically informed him that the Seed was gone(had been hidden by Loki) . So Galactus , seeing no further point in continuing the conflict , teleported away .
@isaac_clarke said:
@Hyper_God said:
Odin was the first one to break it off to go out and attack Galactus because of his frustration during it, so I'd Galactus was winning that fight. And that was with Thor slamming into Galactus' head.
Odin did so only after Galactus strode upon his Serpent-related memories . Galactus apparently hit a soft spot there , which is why Odin angrily headbutted him(and ended up KOing himself) . So , for all intents and purposes , Galactus managed to get the better of Odin in their telepathic battle , but Odin made him work for it(seeing how both of them were sweating midway through their telepathic battle) .
And , as I said before , this is actually a high showing for Odin , considering how Oblivion described Galactus as having impenetrable thoughts in the recent Mighty Thor Annual .
@isaac_clarke said:
@Hyper_God said:
The few feats they do have , which include Arishem's showing against 3 skyfathers , Tiamut destroying the entire Horde , the High Evolutionary reversing the effects of Wanda's spell on Magneto's X-Gene using a minor component of a lobotomized Celestial , Kubik's testimony ,(all the Celestials I am using as an example here are mainstream 616 versions) put them individually above an average Galactus . A high-end Galactus , like the one from the original Secret Wars arc , who devoured his Worldship to battle the Beyonder , on the other hand , is a different story .
"Average" Galactus has better showings without having to devour anything however. Starving Galactus I'd understand.
Four Celestials Blast him (I think this kills him though) because he's been going around eating Celestials when they sleep (which makes me laugh). Turns out, Galactus has been consuming newly created Celestials for a long time, and they've never risked a confrontation with him (which to me, means they are probably not too eager to confront him).
That's from Fantastic Four # 603 .Those Celestials are the Mad Space Gods from Earth-4280 . They aren't the 616 guys . Galactus didn't consume any Celestials(4280 or 616) in that arc . He was there to defend Earth from the Celestials , because their arrival(they had come with the intention of killing Reed) threatened to destroy Earth, and prematurely release the entity within the Galactus Seed(referred in Mighty Thor # 1-6) . Plus , he had also devoured 4 worlds prior to this confrontation .
Nekron is considered one of the 3 sides of death and is officially the most powerful big bad in the DC universe so until that's retconned away death win's this until a writer changes that or a Marvel comic announces the same and I will call a draw between those 2.
@Dextersinister: I don't think is Nekron, this is Death, the Abstract from the Marvel Universe.
@Hyper_God: Ah, I was just trying to point out that Galactus can be beaten by Celestials. When I point out a character's strengths, I like to include his weaknesses (pointing out both, in my eyes, is what proves an argument is based on a strong foundation and not bias).
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