#1 Edited by Nefarious (20435 posts) - - Show Bio

Setting: A Dojo that is located in Hell's Kitchen. 
 
> Unarmed combat.
> Elimination via Knock-out. 
> Both will fight, seriously. 
> Random encounter. 
> Close combat. 
> Who wins this fight? 
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
#2 Posted by pooty (11189 posts) - - Show Bio

What is this? A lack of feats contest? lol

Nevertheless, i'm going with the Chinamen over the Frenchmen.

#3 Posted by k4tzm4n (44427 posts) - - Show Bio

Shang Chi in a very entertaining battle.  I'd dispute he's more skilled, but Batroc's agility and respective level of skill will make this worth watching.

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#4 Posted by Nefarious (20435 posts) - - Show Bio
@pooty: Maybe. lol. 
 
@k4tzm4n: Indeed, it would be worth watching. 
#5 Posted by PaperRonin (1071 posts) - - Show Bio

Shang-Chi

#6 Posted by pooty (11189 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nefarious: Regardless of feats i'm going with Shang Chi in ANY h2H fight. what else does he have? batman, Iron fist, tchalla have money. Cap is an idol. Without being "The Master Of Kung Fu" Shang has nothing....and i'm not taking that away from him. Shang Chi solos everybody in H2H. Thank You

#7 Edited by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Does Shang-Chi have Chi in this battle? If he does uber curbstomp, don't mess with someone who has Chi. They will destroy your hellcarrier with a smile on his face, and Christmas Hat, it will go BOOM!! Oh wait, my bad that's Iron Fist. Snap, :( ( Trolling )

#8 Posted by Nefarious (20435 posts) - - Show Bio
@jeanroygrant: He has no Chi here.  
 
@pooty: Even against Deathstroke?
#9 Posted by pooty (11189 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nefarious: yes. i am a troll unlike any other when it comes to Shang Chi and Photon/Pulsar otherwise i'm pretty level headed.

#10 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nefarious said:

@jeanroygrant: He has no Chi here.

@pooty: Even against Deathstroke?

Interesting, he still wins IMO.

#11 Edited by Nefarious (20435 posts) - - Show Bio
@jeanroygrant: Yeah, the chi would make this spite. Cool. 
 
@pooty: That is quite interesting. It reminds me of the Storm fans that voted for Storm in every fight she is in. 
#12 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nefarious said:

@jeanroygrant: Yeah, the chi would make this spite. Cool.

Yep.

#13 Posted by Nefarious (20435 posts) - - Show Bio
@jeanroygrant: I have to say, this would be a tough fight. 
#14 Posted by pooty (11189 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nefarious said:

@jeanroygrant: Yeah, the chi would make this spite. Cool.

@pooty: That is quite interesting. It reminds me of the Storm fans that voted for Storm in every fight she is in.

First. What chi has Shang shown? secondly, storm fans are REASONABLE compared to how I feel about Shang and Photon.

#15 Posted by God_Spawn (37903 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: How is Shang more skilled?

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#16 Edited by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nefarious said:

@jeanroygrant: I have to say, this would be a tough fight.

I agree.

@pooty said:

@Nefarious said:

@jeanroygrant: Yeah, the chi would make this spite. Cool.

@pooty: That is quite interesting. It reminds me of the Storm fans that voted for Storm in every fight she is in.

First. What chi has Shang shown? secondly, storm fans are REASONABLE compared to how I feel about Shang and Photon.

Why.

#17 Posted by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@k4tzm4n: How is Shang more skilled?

Isnt he a master of more styles and techniques?

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#18 Posted by tg1982 (2715 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambler said:

@god_spawn said:

@k4tzm4n: How is Shang more skilled?

Isnt he a master of more styles and techniques?

Supposably he's a master of all kung fu, and to my knowledge, Batroc just knows savate. But I may be wrong about Shang's number of styles.

#19 Posted by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:

@Gambler said:

@god_spawn said:

@k4tzm4n: How is Shang more skilled?

Isnt he a master of more styles and techniques?

Supposably he's a master of all kung fu, and to my knowledge, Batroc just knows savate. But I may be wrong about Shang's number of styles.

Kung Fu is more then a single style is my point.

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#20 Posted by God_Spawn (37903 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambler: I've seen most bios state he is just a Master of Kung Fu and related styles. I guess he is if you wanna be technical about it. Batroc is only supposed to be a master of Savate but given both Steve and Bucky solid fights when they know plenty of styles themselves.

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#21 Posted by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@Gambler: I've seen most bios state he is just a Master of Kung Fu and related styles. I guess he is if you wanna be technical about it. Batroc is only supposed to be a master of Savate but given both Steve and Bucky solid fights when they know plenty of styles themselves.

It may be ridiculous to bring up but Shang Chi's skill of the martial arts was shown allowing him to block and catch a punch thrown by one of the Hulks Warbound characters. Thats that kind of more skilled I'm referring to. Though that could be a PIS moment at its finest.

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#22 Posted by God_Spawn (37903 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambler: Didn't he chi amp to block Hiroim's punch though? I wouldn't necessarily call it PIS unless I check but I don't have my WWH comics on this laptop so I can't. Idk, I've never been impressed by Shang aside from a few feats every now and then like the Hiroim block and I find a lot of his stuff hyperbole or just word of mouth to make him seem greater than what he shows. Like Black Panther once said Shang was better than Iron Fist yet I have seen nothing that implies it to be true or them to even be really comparable, I think Danny has him by a decent margin. And when Shang goes up against the upper tier of Marvel he tends to fall flat. Wolverine bested him in 2 pages and I'd put Logan more on the level of Iron Fist and Cap than Shang. I guess Shang has Batroc in versatility of skill but whether the application of his greater variety makes him the better fighter here idk.

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#23 Posted by tg1982 (2715 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambler said:

@tg1982 said:

@Gambler said:

@god_spawn said:

@k4tzm4n: How is Shang more skilled?

Isnt he a master of more styles and techniques?

Supposably he's a master of all kung fu, and to my knowledge, Batroc just knows savate. But I may be wrong about Shang's number of styles.

Kung Fu is more then a single style is my point.

I know, I was agreeing with you. That's why I said "all kung fu" instead of just saying "kung fu".

#24 Posted by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: Beating or losing to Wolverine is a weak gauge in my opinion cause its inconsistent at best. Its been awhile since I read WWH but I'm fairly certain it was a normal block but I wouldnt guarantee it. I agree that Shang has more word of mouth feats then most but he has some really good showings. Like training SpiderMan during the Spider Island event. Although Spiderman was absent his spidersense he was still operating with his full level of agility and acrobatic prowess and Shang was right there with him. In fact if I can find the scan I think he showcases Batroc level acrobatics. Also, I dont wanna misrepresent the panel so I will state that at some point Shang develops Spiderman level abilities but I believe this takes place after the panel below.

Shang villain The Cat was stalemating Iron Fist and eventually beats him when he becomes distracted. Without sounding like I'm using ABC logic that alone should show that Shang is somewhere within the Danny Rand range. He also has a nice sparring feat against Cap in which he takes him down. His Heroic Age stat card labels him as an Absolute Master of all Chinese martial arts. Now that again points back to the notion of the word of mouth/written word feats as opposed to the visual ones, but as a B...C? list character you have to be willing to except a certain level of those.

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#25 Posted by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982: Cool, gotcha.

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#26 Edited by God_Spawn (37903 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambler: Let's just drop the Hiroim feat for now lol.

I don't think Wolverine was a weak gauge considering Logan was using his skill at the time and Shang made sure to point it out and I find Logan to be the better fighter. And I believe you are right about the Spider-Man scan being prior to Shang gaining powers considering he wore magnets to mimic Parker's wall crawling abilities at the time.

I still think Parker was holding back for the most part as to not completely overshadow Shang physically. When Parker managed to kick him, he did show concern over the kick but Shang was all good. The feat goes back to what I was referring to that Shang has pretty cool feats every now and then but I just can't seem to remember anything that really stuck out as far a skill goes ie defeating a great fighter except for Cat. And Parker has always seemingly had trouble against MA fighters for some reason. I believe Cap, Daredevil and Wolverine have all given trouble and even beaten him at times despite being massively overshadowed physically. Shang still holds a massive skill edge over Parker during that time of training which is pretty consistent with how Pete handles against MA fighters and in a spar he was probably holding back even more.

And referring to the Cap vs Shang spar, he did take Rogers down in that first exchange but in the 2nd one Cap returned the favor easily with a counter and a spinning back elbow to the head.

In both of their defenses they were talking and both did manage to gain the upper hand on both parts of the exchange and it was a very brief spar. I still see a real fight if they just went h2h going much different with Steve controlling most of it. As far as handbooks and bios go, I've seen most rate him rated as a 5 in skill which is still under DD, Iron Fist, Wolverine, T'Challa etc and it describes it as a master of a single style. I recall one handbook stating he knew all martial arts but it still rated him a 5 on the grid scale under it which contradicted itself. The rest of the bios I have seen just state he is The master of Kung-Fu.

Cat beat Deadpool IIRC but DP has stalemated Iron Fist (twice I think?) as well but Danny had the upper hand in both fights. Yet Wade has been dispatched by Wolverine quickly on a few occasions. I still think Iron Fist has better showings than Wade, Cat and Shang but you do raise a good point that Shang is a C lister so he isn't going to have the stellar numerous feats Cap, Wolverine, T'Challa, Daredevil etc will have on a more consistent basis but even so, the ones he has, I still don't think he is up there in range with them and is a couple of tiers below. To me, he just has a lot to make up for or he has to start facing upper tier fighters and do well before I accept him in their range. I'm not trying to be ignorant or anything but that's just my stance on the subject.

But I'm heading out for the night soon, Gambler, I keep passing out at my keyboard. I'll pick it up tomorrow if I remember or if I'm in the mood for it. If not thanks for the info and debate.

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#27 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

*Grabs the popcorn and sits back*

#28 Posted by entropy_aegis (15324 posts) - - Show Bio

Finally a decent case for Shang.

#29 Edited by k4tzm4n (44427 posts) - - Show Bio
@god_spawn  said: 

@k4tzm4n: How is Shang more skilled?

To be honest, it's because of his potential on paper in combination with assorted feats regarding his physicals (speed to catch a fly, move out of a bullet's path, block a bullet / pain tolerance).  When it comes to facing off against notable opponents, Chi's track record isn't exactly an impressive one and that's why siding with him is quite an uphill struggle.  He got the better of Rogers during a spar, but Rogers then returned the favor immediately after.  In my eyes, that was pretty much a stalemate in Secret Avengers and sadly, that's the most impressive battle I can think of when it comes to Chi taking on a well known character.  He's wrecked Zaran, blocked a few attacks from Elektra, gave classic Spidey a hard time (who hasn't?) and so on, but his one-on-ones with big names leaves a lot to be desired.  We get Squirrel Girl sparring with Wolverine, but no Shang Chi sparring with Iron Fist?  What gives, Marvel bros?
 
Despite having a fair amount of appearances, there isn't really a lot to work with when it comes to placing Chi next to more popular characters with a lot of feats.  And somehow, Batroc falls in that category.  He's a master of numerous martial arts (most notably savate) and his agility is definitely worthy of praise.  We've seen him smack around Paladin, give Captain America and Bucky great fights, humiliate Hawkeye, and dance around Frank Castle's gunfire.  For a man widely treated as a joke (especially in Gambit's run), he's actually quite competent.  Despite this, I give the nod to Chi when it comes to the amount of skill he possesses.  I think The Leaper has what it takes to make this very interesting, and, to be completely honest, I'm not even very firm with this decision, but I do believe Chi's superior technical knowledge should eventually grant him the win. 
  

DP has stalemated Iron Fist (twice I think?)  


Yes, that's correct.  The first encounter was in Cable & Deadpool.  It was a back-and-forth (Deadpool was trying to talk them out of attacking Weasel) and it concluded with Iron Fist kneeing Deadpool in the nose.  Wade was fine after the attack, but that's how it ended.  So, it's fair to say Danny technically had the edge based on the final strike - but overall it was a good showing.  The second time Rand was in Daredevil's attire.  That was also a back-and-forth battle, and this time Danny pulled the same move (knee to nose).  Deadpool countered by grabbing Danny's ankle, but the fight was then interrupted.  
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#30 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

Batroc is underrated but he isn't as good as Shang-Chi.

#31 Posted by God_Spawn (37903 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: Fair enough. I can see where Shang wins then. I was just really curious if his application of skill is necessarily enough. I know more styles for the most part equals more skill but certain instances doesn't pertain. Daredevil only knows a handful of martial arts but against someone like Steve, Wolverine or T'challa who know virtually all of them if not all of them, but he can give them Hell. But on Batroc's side I still think he can pull a majority due to him actually having the feats to fight people that know x amount of martial arts and give them good fights. And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Batroc have the uncanny ability to start picking up traits and or adapting to his opponent's style? I seem to recall he mentioned something about to Cap and picked up on Bucky's style.

And thanks for the added info.

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#32 Posted by k4tzm4n (44427 posts) - - Show Bio
@god_spawn:  
 
 


Fair enough. I can see where Shang wins then. I was just really curious if his application of skill is necessarily enough. 

I think if we're going by one-on-one battles alone, then yes, I'd side with Batroc.  But taking physical feats into account and reputation/statistics, I think Chi's talent is key.  He doesn't have enough to justify besting the likes of Captain America or even Daredevil IMHO, but I think he has what it takes to take down The Leaper in a great fight. 


  know more styles for the most part equals more skill but certain instances doesn't pertain. Daredevil only knows a handful of martial arts but against someone like Steve, Wolverine or T'challa who know virtually all of them if not all of them, but he can give them Hell.  

We're in agreement here.

  


 But on Batroc's side I still think he can pull a majority due to him actually having the feats to fight people that know x amount of martial arts and give them good fights.  

That's fair and I definitely understand where you're coming from here. 

   


 And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Batroc have the uncanny ability to start picking up traits and or adapting to his opponent's style? I seem to recall he mentioned something about to Cap and picked up on Bucky's style. 

You're not wrong. 
 


And thanks for the added info. 

Always happy to chat about Wade.
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#33 Posted by God_Spawn (37903 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: Saw your edit and wanted to discuss something and a few more questions.

To be honest, it's because of his potential on paper in combination with assorted feats regarding his physicals (speed to catch a fly, move out of a bullet's path, block a bullet / pain tolerance). When it comes to facing off against notable opponents, Chi's track record isn't exactly an impressive one and that's why siding with him is quite an uphill struggle.

Off topic for a second. I consider Shang to be the Marvel street level version of Gladiator or Gamora. They have a lot of on paper abilities but the feats don't necessarily stack up.

He got the better of Rogers during a spar, but Rogers then returned the favor immediately after. In my eyes, that was pretty much a stalemate in Secret Avengers and sadly, that's the most impressive battle I can think of when it comes to Chi taking on a well known character.

I don't consider that much of a feat, it was a friendly spar while they chatted and Steve quickly turned things around when he felt like it. To be fair to Shang though, he did beat Wolverine in First Class but I'm almost 100% positive I recall it was being flashback setting considering Wolverine was seeking Shang out for training to defeat Sabretooth IIRC. We've seen Logan struggle with Sabes in the past but as the years progressed and as Logan got more skilled he has wrecked Sabretooth on a few occasions and in turn when he fought Shang-Chi in a later story line (continuity time wise) when he had no adamantium he schooled him. I think it showed Logan's growth over Shang.

blocked a few attacks from Elektra,

Didn't he beat her back in the day? And has Shang been surprised by any other mid tier streets skill? Moon Knight, Bullseye, etc?

Spidey a hard time (who hasn't?) and so on, but his one-on-ones with big names leaves a lot to be desired.

Agreed. Spidey's track record against more skilled people isn't exactly the best. I'm pretty sure Cap, Taskmaster, Daredevil and Wolverine have all gotten the upper hand, held off and or beaten Parker at times despite him holding the stat edge (mostly due to his morals and lack of combat expertise etc). It's the same thing as I said to Gambler, Shang still holds a massive skill edge over Parker and I see that coupled with Parker's typical morals and him wanting to be trained as a reason why Shang kept up with Parker during his Way of the Spider training in the first place. Spider-Man and martial artists has always been a...unique subject of it's own.

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#34 Edited by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

I don't think Wolverine was a weak gauge considering Logan was using his skill at the time and Shang made sure to point it out and I find Logan to be the better fighter. And I believe you are right about the Spider-Man scan being prior to Shang gaining powers considering he wore magnets to mimic Parker's wall crawling abilities at the time.

Sorry, I didnt mean a weak gauge for that particular fight. I mean a weak gauge for combat feats overall for anyone at anytime. Sometimes he's portrayed as a master martial artists and other times not. Sometimes he's portrayed as top tier and others he brawls it out with Creed. I dont hold much value in wins and loses against Wolverine, but while we're on the subject, would you happen to know if Wolverine First Class is considered or accepted as Canon? Cause there is a much more believable fight/spar/training session between a non feral Wolverine and Shang. Just as I can accept the idea of Spiderman holding back, I dont think its unreasonable to believe Shang was holding back against Logan in the infamous two page defeat. But I'm okay with accepting the defeat. Logan would stomp Batroc as well so it doesn't really prove much.

@god_spawn said:

I still think Parker was holding back for the most part as to not completely overshadow Shang physically. When Parker managed to kick him, he did show concern over the kick but Shang was all good. The feat goes back to what I was referring to that Shang has pretty cool feats every now and then but I just can't seem to remember anything that really stuck out as far a skill goes ie defeating a great fighter except for Cat. And Parker has always seemingly had trouble against MA fighters for some reason. I believe Cap, Daredevil and Wolverine have all given trouble and even beaten him at times despite being massively overshadowed physically. Shang still holds a massive skill edge over Parker during that time of training which is pretty consistent with how Pete handles against MA fighters and in a spar he was probably holding back even more.

And referring to the Cap vs Shang spar, he did take Rogers down in that first exchange but in the 2nd one Cap returned the favor easily with a counter and a spinning back elbow to the head.

I agree that Shang holds a massive skill advantage over Spiderman, it was more about illustrating his acrobatic and agility. it was displayed as adequate enough to follow Parker around the entire gym only getting tagged at the very end. This is relevant in the sense that acrobatics would be Batroc's only real advantage going into this fight. Its the only thing he has to hang his hat on. Theres really no way around the fact that Shang doesnt have alot of, "He beat so and so" feats but until recently he was an after thought. Barely a C-List character in most peoples mind I'm willing to bet. His original Hands of Kung Fu series was from a time when basic karate kid type stuff was the rage and his enemies and opponents were rarely, if ever, feature villains in other titles. Most were exclusive to his comic so all you have to base them off from was the writers dialog about how skilled and badass they were before Shang took em out. Like the Spiderman themed villain Darkstrider.

Speaking about beating or giving Spiderman trouble I believe in the Giant Size Spiderman and Master of Kung-Fu 2 Shang Chi did in fact hold his own with Spiderman until they stopped for some reason (its been a longtime sense I've seen the comic so forgive the lack of explanation). Also I didnt mean to sound like I was curbing the sparring session between Cap and Shang, it was just the question about whether or not Shang was shown around the same level as the top tier was raised. Exchanging take downs somewhat answers that. Yes Cap got him back but the question wasnt about Cap's ability against Shang, but rather Shangs ability/skill against the top tier. And because his showings against known opponents is either limited or suspect, panels and examples such as that need to be mentioned.

@god_spawn said:

In both of their defenses they were talking and both did manage to gain the upper hand on both parts of the exchange and it was a very brief spar. I still see a real fight if they just went h2h going much different with Steve controlling most of it. As far as handbooks and bios go, I've seen most rate him rated as a 5 in skill which is still under DD, Iron Fist, Wolverine, T'Challa etc and it describes it as a master of a single style. I recall one handbook stating he knew all martial arts but it still rated him a 5 on the grid scale under it which contradicted itself. The rest of the bios I have seen just state he is The master of Kung-Fu.

I agree Steve would more then likely control the fight but he's Captain America. He controls the fights against Batroc as well. And I think Shang would give him a much harder fight then the Leaper, who was embarrassed by Gambit even though he had help with him. Shang being rated as below the big names is okay with me. Those are the premiere names and with the exception of T'Challa they all have extra abilities that play a significant role in their combat elevated scores. As we've already agreed Kung Fu isnt a single style. Those old hnadbook entries are just sad reminders of the writers ignorance as it pertains to martial arts.

@god_spawn said:

Cat beat Deadpool IIRC but DP has stalemated Iron Fist (twice I think?) as well but Danny had the upper hand in both fights. Yet Wade has been dispatched by Wolverine quickly on a few occasions. I still think Iron Fist has better showings than Wade, Cat and Shang but you do raise a good point that Shang is a C lister so he isn't going to have the stellar numerous feats Cap, Wolverine, T'Challa, Daredevil etc will have on a more consistent basis but even so, the ones he has, I still don't think he is up there in range with them and is a couple of tiers below. To me, he just has a lot to make up for or he has to start facing upper tier fighters and do well before I accept him in their range. I'm not trying to be ignorant or anything but that's just my stance on the subject.

But I'm heading out for the night soon, Gambler, I keep passing out at my keyboard. I'll pick it up tomorrow if I remember or if I'm in the mood for it. If not thanks for the info and debate.

Wade is another character I dont weigh characters heavily against cause he's seldom if ever serious. Does he lose cause he lacks skill? Or simply lacks focus? During both losses to the Cat he's fanboying over him. Literally. He loves the dude which obscures the validity of the fight in my opinion. (I hate Deadpool lol). Being within range of these upper tier characters is subjective. I mean without quantifying exactly what I define as, "Within Range," it could be anything. Within range for me means that if Shang were to be shown defeating any of the top names, Cap, BP, Fist, Logan, I think it would be easily accepted by the majority of the comicbook community.

iight man peace. Haven't really debated in a minute now lol. I'll look to see if you responded later on today.

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#35 Posted by k4tzm4n (44427 posts) - - Show Bio
@god_spawn:  


Off topic for a second. I consider Shang to be the Marvel street level version of Gladiator or Gamora. They have a lot of on paper abilities but the feats don't necessarily stack up. 

That's a pretty fair comparison.
 


 I don't consider that much of a feat, 

Nor do I, I consider it a stalemate.  It was to further my point that it's his most impressive display against a well known character and it isn't even anything especially outstanding.

   


 Steve quickly turned things around when he felt like it.  

Saying that implies (at least to me) that Steve wasn't trying in the first half.  I don't agree with that.  I view it as a sparring match between the two and they both took the other down once.

  


 To be fair to Shang though, he did beat Wolverine in First Class but I'm almost 100% positive I recall it was being flashback setting 

It is.  the whole point was Logan was a terrible fighter at the time (thus Creed rocking his world).  So, Shang humiliating him at that point isn't really something worth discussing.  Once that was all set, Wolverine wrecked Sabretooth.  The point was simply he went from fighting like a brawler to learning some technique.

  


when he fought Shang-Chi in a later story line (continuity time wise) when he had no adamantium he schooled him. I think it showed Logan's growth over Shang. 

The funny thing is Shang doesn't know who Wolverine is when this happens. 

 Didn't he beat her back in the day?  


I only know of a casual encounter in a restaurant. 
 

And has Shang been surprised by any other mid tier streets skill? Moon Knight, Bullseye, etc?  


During a team-up with Marc, Shang had a caption complimenting Marc's moves.
 


 Spider-Man and martial artists has always been a...unique subject of it's own 

Agreed.  And for the record, I think a determined Spider-Man should wipe the floor with Captain America.
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#36 Edited by k4tzm4n (44427 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler:  

who was embarrassed by Gambit even though he had help with him.  


As much as I enjoyed that story (how could I not?  It included so many favorites), Fabian had rather inconsistent writing when it came to Gambit's match-ups.  One minute Bullseye is absolutely humiliating him and Gambit says there's no shame in it because Bullseye is better, then the next Gambit holds his own against Daredevil in an extraordinary display of agility and technique.  Meanwhile, he humiliates Batroc and Zaran at the same time, and even manages to hold his own against Crossbones.  Needless to say, I think Batroc was treated as a joke in the series and it was certainly a low showing for him.  After all, remember when he and Zaran bumped into Crossbones and they were overcome with fear?  Seems odd Batroc would relish a tough fight against Steve Rogers then cower before Crossbones. 
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#37 Edited by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

@Gambler:

who was embarrassed by Gambit even though he had help with him.


As much as I enjoyed that story (how could I not? It included so many favorites), Fabian had rather inconsistent writing when it came to Gambit's match-ups. One minute Bullseye is absolutely humiliating him and Gambit says there's no shame in it because Bullseye is better, then the next Gambit holds his own against Daredevil in an extraordinary display of agility and technique. Meanwhile, he humiliates Batroc and Zaran at the same time, and even manages to hold his own against Crossbones. Needless to say, I think Batroc was treated as a joke in there series and it was certainly a low showing for him. After all, remember when he and Zaran bumped into Crossbones and they overcome with fear? Seems odd Batroc would relish a tough fight against Steve Rogers then cower before Crossbones.

Maybe, but I dont really see that as inconsistent in terms of the Bullseye and DD situations. One is against a known psychopath who isnt holding back and Gambit fears were as against DD its the classic hero vs hero. DD isnt really going all out martial arts nerve strikes, pressure points, gotta put Gambit down and fast. Armed with that knowledge its believable for Gambit to acrobatically keep up with him. I didnt really see an impressive display of actual technique as often depicted through open palm strikes, finger tip jabs, visually amazing kicks, etc. Its basically just alot of jumping. Unless you mean acrobatic/agility technique. Didnt Gambit just swat Crossbones with a kinetically charged piece of wood? I dont know if that constitutes "holding your own." The relishing a tough fight against Cap is a fairly recent and somewhat out of character feat isnt? Other then that werent the majority of their fights displaying Batroc as hating to face Cap? I thought I saw a scan of that somewhere.

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#38 Posted by TDK_1997 (14896 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm giving this to Shang Chi.

#39 Posted by God_Spawn (37903 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambler: First Class I believe is canon but kind of contradicts somethings. But regarding the Wolverine fight I find it believable. First Class was a flashback style series so it was when Wolverine was usually fighting like a berserker which is why he was always having trouble with Sabes. As time passed and Logan grew more skilled he's actually beaten Sabretooth soundly on a few occasions. I can accept the idea of Shang-Chi holding back a bit but I still think Logan is on a premiere level that I wouldn't find, based on feats at least, that he could have beaten him that fast. Logan's skilled enemy list is a long one and full of high level fighters. So back in the old days could Shang beat Wolverine like he did? I think so. Could Wolverine beat Shang like he did in their "second" encounter? I find that plausible too.

As for the rest, I really can't disagree with a lot of what you have to say save for a few minor things here and there. If Shang did beat one of the upper tier (probably 3 people give or take just to make it so people wouldn't question the validity of it) I probably wouldn't have a problem accepting it, the potential is there someone just needs to make use of it. I didn't come into this thread to say Shang loses or Batroc wins but I was curious to see what K4tz had to say and it spawned a pretty healthy debate between you and I. So I thank you for it lol.

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#40 Posted by God_Spawn (37903 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n:

Saying that implies (at least to me) that Steve wasn't trying in the first half. I don't agree with that. I view it as a sparring match between the two and they both took the other down once.

I'm not gonna say he was going easy. I'm saying that Steve was able to reciprocate the take down just as fast as Shang did. We don't know how things would necessarily go in a real fight but considering you and I don't see it as a real feat, we could probably drop the subject. I'm just clearing up what I meant.

isn't really something worth discussing.

Fair enough.

The funny thing is Shang doesn't know who Wolverine is when this happens.

Do you remember the issue number? I'd like to go over the issue if I have it somewhere, if not check the comic shop cheap bins.

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#41 Edited by k4tzm4n (44427 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler

but I dont really see that as inconsistent in terms of the Bullseye and DD situations.  


I do and now I'll bore you in explaining why. 
 

One is against a known psychopath who isnt holding back 

But he flat-out wreeeeeeeecked Remy (to be fair, it was after the sai strike).  I mean, we're talking a total curbstomp by Lester in hand-to-hand, meanwhile the title had LebBau holding his own in close range against Blade earlier.  Also, the writing surrounding his powers seemed quite off (ironic coming from that title, no?).  Charged cards were being deflected, caught, not exploding when blocked, etc.  Remy was pretty much humiliated and it was a stark comparison to the rest of his showings in the run.   
 
I've always been mixed on a Bullseye vs Gambit battle over the years, but I honestly think it's one Gambit should win.  Not saying Gambit should have won in that fight, it was just a general statement I felt was relevant.  
 

  and Gambit fears were as against DD its the classic hero vs hero. DD isnt really going all out martial arts nerve strikes, pressure points, gotta put Gambit down and fast. Armed with that knowledge its believable for Gambit to acrobatically keep up with him. I didnt really see an impressive display of actual technique as often depicted through open palm strikes, finger tip jabs, visually amazing kicks, etc. Its basically just alot of jumping. Unless you mean acrobatic/agility technique.  
 

I'd say Gambit is at least Matt's equal in agility and reflexes, so I've got no gripe with the two of them matching pace when they flip across rooftops.  It was the fact that they went blow-for-blow perfectly.   Despite me being a Remy fanboy (I blame X-Men TAS), I just can't agree that Remy should be able to hold his own for an extended period of time against Murdock.  I think he'd beat Matt, but only by including his powers.  Remy is excellent with stick fighting and savate, but at the end of the day he isn't even a master of either.  Daredevil's mind was elsewhere because he was trying to save a life, but Gambit was an obstacle that he needed to get out of the way as well.  As a fellow Gambit fan, I'm sure you're aware that this is pretty much Remy's top hand-to-hand display, but I think it's worth questioning. 
 

Didnt Gambit just swat Crossbones with a kinetically charged piece of wood? I dont know if that constitutes "holding your own."

It was a short encounter, yes, but Fabian's captions are worth noting.  It was something like "This guy has stood toe-to-toe with Captain America... and walked away!  How am I going to handle this?" Easily!"   He then disabled Crossbones' guns.  Brock knocked him away with a strike, but Remy promptly returned by smacking him in the head with a charged piece of debris.  Before the fight could go any further, the officer placed a gun to Brock's head.  So I understand why you'd question the use of "holding your own there" since it was such a short battle that literally only consisted of 3 moves total (including charging Brock's guns). 
  

The relishing a tough fight against Cap is a fairly recent and somewhat out of character feat isnt? 


Nah, Batroc has always been a rather respectable fighter and sought out a challenge.  He even lured Cap into a rematch once.
 

Other then that werent the majority of their fights displaying Batroc as hating to face Cap? I thought I saw a scan of that somewhere. 
 

If he has another objective, yeah.  Cap isn't exactly an easy obstacle to overcome, hah.  You might be thinking about his encounter with Bucky.   These two pages give a good look into his personality.
 
  
 
Anyway, the whole real point about me bringing Remy's run up was because I think Batroc was pretty much a joke in that run and wasn't a very accurate portrayal or his skill or agility.  Funny and entertaining, but not a good measuring stick. 

@god_spawn:  


 I'm not gonna say he was going easy. I'm saying that Steve was able to reciprocate the take down just as fast as Shang did. We don't know how things would necessarily go in a real fight but considering you and I don't see it as a real feat, we could probably drop the subject. I'm just clearing up what I meant. 

Of course.  The point wasn't used to help Chi - it was used to mock his appearances vs popular characters. 
"Hey, here's his best showing in that regard - and it's not even that impressive nor a victory!  And it's a friendly match!"
  

Do you remember the issue number? I'd like to go over the issue if I have it somewhere, if not check the comic shop cheap bins.


 
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#42 Posted by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

Anyway, the whole real point about me bringing Remy's run up was because I think Batroc was pretty much a joke in that run and wasn't a very accurate portrayal or his skill or agility. Funny and entertaining, but not a good measuring stick.

I was going to respond to your entire post but as the things I disagree with are minor and seem to have more to do with the terminology used as much as anything else, I'll just respond to this part briefly. Although I dont know a great deal about Batroc, I do know his CIS is a staple of his character. Such as the time he fought Hawkeye and refused to use his Savante against him cause he deem Clint unworthy of a gentlemens artistic form of combat. Subsequently he gets knocked out. In Gambit's series they showed Batroc in his trademark jump kick pose landing it on Gambit so I wouldnt say he was inaccurately portrayed. He put Gambit down then got cocky and had his mustache blown up in his face Ha! silly. But it was a brief encounter and wasnt like it showed Batroc getting destroyed without a fight or being unable to keep up with Gambit.

(sidenote: About the cards not exploding during his fight with Bullseye, I never understood that. But, this is the run in which New Sun arrives and Gambits powers through the series arent what they are today. He blow up Batroc's mustache by looking at it. Same with Zaran's sword. So maybe his powers were fluctuating and that explains the debunked cards. Or not lol)

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#43 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

Jesus...Great debate the 3 of you!

#44 Posted by God_Spawn (37903 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strafe Prower: Thank you.

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#45 Posted by gunmetalgrey (1269 posts) - - Show Bio

"Both will fight, seriously." I'm scared to see what Batroc can do if he ever fought seriously.