Batman vs Superman

Someone asked me this question earlier and I told them I'd figure it out

Then it should be obvious...by the way welcome :)

@meep189:

when you figure out give your opinion to the viner it'll be a riot as all ways

Superman uses laser vision and Batman dies

Batman can "potentially" slow down Superman, to completely incapacitate him would take a lot, and it's never been done. Even with a Kryptonite ring Batman was merely keeping him off balance as opposed to beating the crap outta him, which a lot of people have been led to believe. For Batman to win, you have to put it into a scenario, otherwise you have to do it so many times outta ten, and it's Supes 9/10. I love Batman, but he's human and people need to stop acting like he is the only one who can down Superman. Batman's good at a lot of things but going up against super powered beings isn't one of them, unless he's got a whole bunch of PIS in his utility belt.

Batman.

With prep

...how did Batman take down Superman in Tower of Babel? Its a story I am desperately trying to get hold of, but it seems to be out of print?

Basically TDKR shows us Batman needs a distraction or two, in this case a nuclear explosion and a kryptonite arrow from Green Arrow to weaken Superman to the point that he can deliver a KO.

He didn't, there is a common misconception that Batman defeated all of the JL members in that story but it was Ra's al Ghul who used Batman's plans to immobilize the other JL members and yes, that is a huge distinction.

Regarding Superman, Ra's used red kryptonite against him.

that's the common excuse for superman, that Batman had help / distractions. I think what we can safely assume is that Batman can come up with any random amount of devices / plots to dispense Kryptonite powder for Superman to inhale, therefore defeating him. Batman even said he held back the strength of the K powder, because any stronger would have killed Superman. Green Arrow / Ollie was just one way Batman used to delivered the powder, though it was quite extreme and theatrical way of doing it.

@batzilla: Assuming Superman just inhales the smoke...when he regularly just blows it away.

How did that work out for him the first time? lol

Besides, just being around the powder will weaken him, he doesn't have to inhale it, so a weak superman will probably have trouble blowing it all away.

@batzilla: Yeah, but like he said, Batman needs help...lots of help. Before the Kryptonite, Superman was fighting at 10% at most.

BTW, depends who the writer/which Superman is, but Kyptonite doesn't always drop Superman to the floor.

And that's just sloppy writing at best. Batman has taken straight hits from Doomsday without getting hurt, so I guess that means he can take hits for Superman without getting hurt either? I'm gonna assume you won't accept that, so I also won't accept that Kryptonite doesn't always drop Superman to the floor.

@batzilla: No where does it say Superman HAS to drop to the floor when Kryptonite is around. Kryptonite is radiation poisoning, not a gravity rock. All Kryptonite HAS to do is make Superman feel sick and, if he's exposed to it long enough, kill him. Those are the only rules whether you want to accept it or not. Whether he drops to the floor is determined by plot.

Plus, it depends on the Superman. The Golden Age, Silver Age, Post-Crisis and DCnU Supermen all react differently to it. DCnU Superman don't give a F, he'll still be able to walk around like a boss. PC + SA Supes are more seriously effected and GA Supes can easily will through it.

Superman's age also plays a role, an older Superman isn't effected by Kryptonite at all, though I see you're not upset that Miller didn't follow that rule, but you refuse to accept that he, like most other characters in comics, has the will to power through something.

@superguy1591: Do you mean new 52 superman when you say dcnu? And also, miller didn't follow a lot of rules about superman. It was his own noncanon interpretation of the character.

But Miller does follow that rule, Superman will always, always, no matter what, be weak against Kryptonite, nothing you or anyone else says can change that, its what DC wants and its what they say that matters, not what you want it or what you think will happen.

DC approved Miller's story, and therefore agreed with it, so that is what counts. No matter what you say, Batman defeated Superman in an absolute and definitive matter, there is no question about it, because that is what DC wanted and agreed to, therefore, it doesn't matter that you don't agree with it, it is ultimately what did happen and what CAN happen, simple as that.

The line that Batman uses that says he could have killed Superman if he used more Kryptonite still stands, because guess what, it was allowed by DC, and so that is what counts in the end. Sorry to burst your bubble.

@batzilla: So, you're just going to ignore countless future Superman stories where Kryptonite does nothing to him, right? The more sunlight he's exposed to, the less the effect Kryptonite has on him. See All-Star Superman and Kingdom Come and the canonical Infinite Crisis where Golden Age Superman makes it cannon.

Secondly, TDKReturns is Elseworld, it doesn't count for anything except in its own Universe, that's why DC allowed it to happen.

Finally, again, even a Batman fan agrees. Check the post ahead of yours. Miller's Superman WAS NOT Superman. Why do you think Superman fans hate the story so much? People like to think that it was because Supes got beat, but it was really because Miller just wrote a bastardized(not a curse, it's a real word) version of Superman.

@jayc1324: Yes, the N52 is referred to as the DCnewU sometimes.

@superguy1591: lets go over what superman does in the comic

1. Stops an invading army from taking over an island thus saving the lives of the US solders and the people living on the island

2. Ties up a villian Batman is pursueing

3. When he talks to Bruce he is very civil and explans that its not their right to decide whats right or wrong

4. Saves said island again when the Russians launch a nuke at it most likely saving millions upon millions of lives and nearly dieing in the process himself.

5. Superman kills flowers

6. When ordered by the president to take down Batman he could have easily just flew down and captured him but instead gave Bruce a fighting chance

7. Fights Batman but the whole time is holding back and at some points trying to convince Batman to stop fighting

8. Even when his friend just nearly kills him and is monologing to him when Clark sees Bruce is having a heart attack he shows concern for Bruce and when Bruce seemingly dies he yells at the solders to stay away from them

9. After he hears bruce's heart beating he chooses to ignore it and even gives Carrie a wink

I dont know about you but this all sounds like stuff Superman would do. So to say this is a complete basteredized Superman is a rediculous statement besides for taking orders from the government everything he does is completely in character

Neither would really win. Neither is willing to kill the other. Superman might be able to physically stop Batman, but Batman has also been able to stop Superman but just talking him down.

@lordofthenorth:

1.) He shouldn't have been there in the first place. Outside of WWII, Superman doesn't intervene in wars. In fact, Superman, in character, would've stop both militaries from fighting so that they don't endanger the civilians. He wouldn't pick a side because he fights for the entire human race and not for the United States.

2.)Context is important, he intervened and wrecks Batman's plan. That was the point of Miller's Superman entrance, to make Superman look like a pest. This motif isn't isolated, it continues. Superman may not agree with Batman's ways, but he'll always respect Batman enough to let him handle it. He'll stand by and watch.

3.) You mean when he tells Bruce that he's a tool with no opinions or morals that the Kent instilled in him. He's just here to listen to the government? Yeah, not Superman. 50 years of Superman deciding right from wrong out the window.

4.) 1/9 ain't bad.

5.) Remember the pest motif? In that scene, Miller was trying to paint Superman as a leech (a pest) on the planet who sucks up as much with little regards for other. See why the Superman entrance isn't a good thing?

6.) Superman doesn't take orders, he also wouldn't hunt down his friend or side against him. This is against his character.

7.) See number 6.

8.) I prefer the JLU version of this scene much better where Superman and Captain Atom fought and Superman stood up and said "Don't touch him! He's Justice League!". That's in line with Superman's character, not working with a authoritarian government so that he could still play hero. Like in Kingdom Come, when Superman feels like he can't inspire anyone anymore, he'll stop being Superman... like in Kingdom Come. That's why Kingdom Come > TDKReturns, both characters got proper treatments.

9.) That would've been how Superman and Batman handled this situation in the first place. Have Batman fake his death and leave him to continue his fight in the shadows, without the fight. Plus, Miller just says F' U to that scene when he wrote TDKSA.

@superguy1591:

1. Your just being nit picky here the Russian Forces where the ones attacking they where the only ones he could do anything about tha only US Forces where the ones on the Island protecting the said Island

2. Yet again your being nit picky Superman has intervened a couple of times and has at times seen Bruce's methods as overly violent

3. Ok here you complete dont understand Superman's perspective in this story at this point heros are outlawed but Superman wanting to continue to help people decides to partner with the government and that time with the government was warped his views a bit

4. cool

5. You might see it that way but i shall that scene and only shall some one who just risked his life trying to survive

6. see point 3 and here Superman is just trying to keep the peace becuase the government now sees batman as just a disruptive force

7. The fight happened get over it you could clearly see the character of Superman throughout

8. See here its clear your main point of continsion is that he is working for the government so you cant look beyond that one single point. but i perfer TDKR over JLU becuase of the tragity that these best friends had to come to blows. I like Kingdom Come and TDKR about the same but the problem you arnt seeing is that Kingdom come is a JL story while TDKR is a Batman story

9. the problem is just faking his death is pointless it does nothing and if batman just wanted to fake his death he didnt need Superman to do that. See my thoughts on the last bit of TDKR has always been that Superman in the course of working for the government has lost his path and so is just going though the motions of being a hero and forgeting what that means so the ending fight is more about batman trying to humble Superman back to the man he was before and Batman just so happend to use that time to fake his death.

TDKSA problem is that it came out in 2002 and is highly infulenced by 9/11 not to mention this is also the point Miller lost all the talent he once had that made every character look insane i mean not even batman got out of that one without looking like a sciopath

@lordofthenorth:

1.) There's no nitpicking, we're talking about Superman being in character. Intervention is not in character for Supes.

2.) Superman stopped intervening in Batman's ways after he got an understanding of Batman when they first met. Byrne wrote it this way, Waid wrote it this way in Kingdom Come and every good writer who knows the true characterizations of both characters knows this. Superman doesn't agree with Batman's methods all the time, but he knows it gets results and he respects that.

3.) Again, Superman doesn't take orders from anyone! He wouldn't neuter himself so that he could play hero, especially if his friends (Oliver) are being harmed. Miller knew this was bull, that's why he tried to say Superman had to conform because they held his family hostage. Even two bit hacks like Snyder and Goyer know that Superman doesn't take orders from the government. He won't fight them, but he won't work for them.

4.) Indeed.

5.) Then you missed the subtle undertones. What was the naïve pest of a doctor wearing who let Joker loose wear? I believe a Superman shirt, right?

6.) And again, you think Superman is weak willed and takes orders like a tool or machine. Why can't you see that Superman is a human being with a conscious and morals? He can decipher right from wrong, the government wouldn't ask him to hunt down Batman because he wouldn't do it. This Superman sold out his friends, his family and everything he represented to play hero and that disgusts Superman fans to their stomach. He wasn't a man, he was a worm. Which Miller caps off by having Batman humiliate him by calling him a joke because that's all he was in that story--which should be enough to prove he was written out of character.

7.) I don't deny the fight happened or that Superman didn't want to hurt Batman (Though Batman fans forget that). I just said that it shouldn't have happened.

8.) I prefer the one with the two characters being in character. Also, Kingdom Come is a Superman story featuring the DCU. Superman and Batman weren't friends in TDKReturns. At least not in Batman's mind.

9.) But that's just it, why include Superman in your Batman story only to make him the villain? Why intentionally write him out of character? What lessons did BATMAN, whose story this was, learn from this fight? Miller said he wrote this story to "give Batman his b@11$ back", so why was Superman there? I just can't ever wrap my head around why Superman was there.

lol, C'mon guy. Get real. DC also ABSOLUTELY, DEFINITIVELY, ULTIMATELY, ALLOWED this to happen

So I guess this means muggers > Darkseid....

@superguy1591:

1) Iam sorry that is nit picky This wasnt some fight in a war zone the Russians where the ones attacking the island. So Superman attacking the US troops who are only protecting said Island would be out of character

2) This one isnt that big of a deal this scence was more a showy way for Clark to get Bruce's attention nothing more you just interpret that from batman's words but Batman always talks like that when dealing with Superman

3) This is rediculous just becuase he is taking orders from the government dosnt mean he does it to play hero would you say that to a soldier i dont think so. Yes this is a differant Superman that is put in a place where the public and government dont want Superheros flying around doing what ever they want deciding whats moraly right by themselves. So decides to fight along side the government so he can help in any way that he can

4) Neat

5) i just think that scene is just how you interpret it, as for the docter why wouldnt he wear a Superman shirt to him Superman is everything Batman isnt a symbol of hope a protector ya he is a bit nieve but thats also a trait many writers give to Superman. but if you want to play that game the teenagers that become the Sons of Batman murder people i dont know about you but i would rather have someone who is nieve and trying to cure people of mental illness instead of a bunch of people killing in my name.

6) I dont think Superman is weak willed taking ordes from the government dosnt make him weak willed. Techicaly Superman is not a human being seeing as you have to be a homosapien to be a human which Clark is not. Again this is just how you Superman in this story i just see someone wants to help and any way that he can and has found himself in the postion of taking orders from the government.

7) I didnt in fact i said that in my frist statement my problem was the fight clearly showed Superman in character

8) I disagree about Kingdom Come Superman my have been at the for front of that story but thats becuase he is freakin Superman a larger than life character but everything in that story is about so much more than just Superman mostly the future as seen at the end with Wonder Woman having a child. Maybe in TDKR Batman might not think they are friends but Batman never says anything to that effect in fact he just acts the usual way when Superman is around annoyed.

9) But he isnt a villain. this isnt Injustice where Superman was gone full dark side this is just a Superman that has just lost his way you can call him an antaginist but certainly not a villain. Some times a hero dosnt learn something from the fight sometimes he is trying to teach something to the person they are fighting. Superman was their becuase he is freakin Superman at the begaining of the story Batman is complete lost going though the everyday motions of life just hoping to die and than suddenly he finds he cant stand by and let everything he did just turn to garbage Superman is in a simular spot he is just going throught the motions of being a hero and helping people having lost track of what that means and suddenly batman comes back and shocks him back to realality at least thats the way i have always seen this story which is why i always shall that wink at the end as Superman being to be completely himself again and like batman begaining anew

Kindly point me to the stories where Kryptonite has no effect on him? Yeah great sunlight makes him stronger, you would think if that's the case, a human being that uses Kryptonite all the time wouldn't be his greatest enemy right? Ooops

Secondly, TDKReturns is only Elseworld because its set in the future, just like Batman Beyond is Elseworld. By DC allowing and approving the story, they are stating that they stand 100 % behind this Batman victory against Superman. DC is saying that this CAN AND WOULD HAPPEN. That's all that counts, not yours or my opinion, its what DC wants it to be, sorry to burst your bubble

Finally, Miller's Superman WAS SUPERMAN. I'm sorry that you are bitter about Superman losing. Everything about the TDKR Superman is 100% Superman, as agreed and allowed by DC.

@onemoreposter said:

@batzilla said:

@superguy1591 said:

@batzilla: No where does it say Superman HAS to drop to the floor when Kryptonite is around. Kryptonite is radiation poisoning, not a gravity rock. All Kryptonite HAS to do is make Superman feel sick and, if he's exposed to it long enough, kill him. Those are the only rules whether you want to accept it or not. Whether he drops to the floor is determined by plot.

Plus, it depends on the Superman. The Golden Age, Silver Age, Post-Crisis and DCnU Supermen all react differently to it. DCnU Superman don't give a F, he'll still be able to walk around like a boss. PC + SA Supes are more seriously effected and GA Supes can easily will through it.

Superman's age also plays a role, an older Superman isn't effected by Kryptonite at all, though I see you're not upset that Miller didn't follow that rule, but you refuse to accept that he, like most other characters in comics, has the will to power through something.

But Miller does follow that rule, Superman will always, always, no matter what, be weak against Kryptonite, nothing you or anyone else says can change that, its what DC wants and its what they say that matters, not what you want it or what you think will happen.

DC approved Miller's story, and therefore agreed with it, so that is what counts. No matter what you say, Batman defeated Superman in an absolute and definitive matter, there is no question about it, because that is what DC wanted and agreed to, therefore, it doesn't matter that you don't agree with it, it is ultimately what did happen and what CAN happen, simple as that.

The line that Batman uses that says he could have killed Superman if he used more Kryptonite still stands, because guess what, it was allowed by DC, and so that is what counts in the end. Sorry to burst your bubble.

lol, C'mon guy. Get real. DC also ABSOLUTELY, DEFINITIVELY, ULTIMATELY, ALLOWED this to happen

So I guess this means muggers > Darkseid....

Don't know the whole story or reasoning behind that scan, but if that's what DC agreed to publish, then guess it what, it can happen.

@lordofthenorth:

1.) Doesn't matter who started it, Superman doesn't intervene. Even if he planned to intervene, Superman wouldn't invade with an army. He doesn't pick sides, that's why Injustice's Superman was out of character, he intervened and forced his hand.

2.) Keep telling yourself that, but Superman and Batman don't often intervene in each others affairs. Superman had no reason to be there except for the fact that Miller wanted him to paint Clark as a pest for the readers to call a tool. See when Bruce and Clark go horse riding and Miller had Clark look like a total d0uche. Everything Miller did to Superman was done to make him look like a tool. Saying that the Soviets were the bad guys and Americans good is ignoring all the evils the United States committed in Vietnam for one.

3.) A Soldier is an employee of the government of the United States, Superman is supposed to represent all of humanity. The United States, like every other nation in the world, is not looking out for the best interest of humanity, but instead in the best interest of the United States. Superman picking to side with the United States makes him a tool, no ifs, ands or buts.

4.) Awesome.

5.) Superman isn't naïve, he's idealistic. This Superman was not idealistic; he gave up. In siding with the Government, Superman, himself, is saying that he can't win against them. Superman knows right from wrong, he was taught that by the Kent.

6.) Being a human being is much more than who your birth parents are. Your ideal, ethics and hopes are what make human beings...humans.

7.) Superman has never fought Batman in the main continuity when he wasn't under mind control, Superman didn't even do anything to him when Batman betrayed the team and built plans for them. Outside of their first encounter, Superman and Batman don't fight, why would Superman fight Batman because someone tells him to?

8.) Kingdom Come is a Supeman story, if Kingdom Come isn't a Superman story, what does that make Red Son? Superman stories will always feature the Justice League because Superman's supporting cast is weak. Lois Lane sucks, Jimmy is boring and Perry isn't very interesting. To combat that, Superman stories use the JL to surround him with good characters.

9.) You're right, he isn't the villain, he's the pawn of the villain. He's not even in this story fighting for what he believes in, he's a gun for hire.

Superman blows his nose on Batman and it blows Batman's head off.

Batman

@superguy1591: I wouldn't call kingdom come a superman story at all. He was a major player but it wasn't really his story. And miller was writing an out of continuity story so he could write superman however he wanted. That's the point of an else world's story, to write the characters how he wants to. Superman and batman appear in each others books from time to time, they are friends. So its not weird for superman to be there. It also allowed for the big fight at the end which is an iconic moment in comic history. I basically agree with everything else you said, especially saying that millers superman wasn't superman. It was a different version of superman (although superman does intervene in Batman's business from time to time, like in no mans land) but putting superman there made perfect sense.

@superguy1591: I think that TDKR has to be taken in context. At that time Batman went away from the Justice League because they had many rules of moving to other countries imposed by the US government. That is why Batman created the outsiders a group without control from the government. If you read A Death in the family Superman wont let Batman get his hands on Joker because he had political immunity.

So If we take it in context Frank miller was taking a critic with all the political bias in The justice league. It like what if this situation endured 10 years.

@superguy1591:

1) how can you not grasp that sitution the US Army is protecting an Island the Russians want that Island so they attack it is completely in character to stop that invading army from hurting people if the Russians where attacking Oragon would you be complaining i dont think so its the same situation. Really your going to complaining about the Injustice Superman he whole point of that story is a "what would happen" as in if Superman after a great tragety decided to become a dictator that would be like if i complained about the Flashpoint Batman that shoting and killing people.

2)... i have no words to discribe how freaking silly your being about this First boo freaking hoo Superman intervend in Batmans fight it isnt a big deal get over it. Second i didnt see Superman as a tool or a douche so your point is completely false. Third no one said the Soviats where the bads guys or Americans are the heros get off your freaking soup box what happend was situational see point 1

3) its an elsewords story ok so its alright if Superman decides become some part of the government your concern should be how they act in the sitution that they are put in not refuse to even look at anything beyond it becuase you cant leave this point alone.

4)woo hoo

5) and idealistic can be seen as naive batman on a number of occations has said this. Holy crap you finaly get it yes in this story Superman has given up but a point thou its what he sees as right and worng not what "is" right or wrong to say other wise is arrangance

6) Sorry thats just BS you can us that when discribing differant peoples on Earth but guess what Clark is an alien form outerspace his DNA is completely differant ours thus he isnt human if dogs started talking and having ideals and other stuff you mentioned i dont think you would you call them humans now would you

7) Yet again this is a differant Superman who sees working with the government as just part being a hero becuase the simple thing of accounability seeing as Superman is basicaly a god thats a lot of unchecked power that he wields on his own whims and moralities so doing things like bring in a vegalante that the public sees as a problem and stopping an invading army form distoring an Island helps ordenary citizens see Superman as a person on thier side becuase lets face it if a random person showed up in your country weilding god like power doing what ever his own morality decided apon i dought you would like them very much

8)Sorry their is no logic in that statement just becuase it stars Superman dosnt mean its about Superman yet again the story is about the future and what we decide to leave behide and do for it which was the whole point with the scene of making Bruce the godfather

9) really come on over dramtic much yet again get off you soap box i dont know what your deal is about the US government save it for someone who cares but no where in that story does it just show Superman as a gun for hire he is just a hero that thinks at the moment working with the government is what he has to do as you said yourself he is an idealist so he would try to think that at the very least the govenment is trying besides in Superman even says himself he wont kill batman

@superguy1591: Wow LordoftheNorth destroyed you, he definitely won this one. You are just repeating the same thing over again. As LordoftheNorth said, Superman is acting completely within his traits, and so is Batman, and fact is Batman beat with great planning and determination, get over it, stop being such a sore loser.

Superman can still insta-kill batman a any point. Batman has never come up with a way to actually deal with a morals off superman actually trying to kill him. Batman has no defense against HV from space, IMPing the planet, or just general super speed.

So what? Even in canon stories it's essentially the writers own interpretation. If not, there would be no difference between the PC and N52 superman really....

For the N52, the writing has been terrible for him lately, he survived a kryptonite bomb or something IIRC.... He seems to act as if kryptonite has absolutely no effect on him....

@digitalshooter9: But in canon stories superman still maintains basic parts of his personality and is essentially still the same character with the same themes. Miller changed him a lot.

And yes kryptonite seems to be affecting him less but he was extremely sick, turned green, and didn't have much control over his powers when he had a sliver of kryptonite in his brain in trinity war. If a sliver could do that then a small nugget would probably take him out.

They'd both die. Superman might instakill, but Batman would have a red sun/kryptonite bomb waiting at the Daily Planet, Fortress of Solitude, and Lois' apartment.

Well let's for a moment replace Bruce with Lex. He has prepped against Supes and while he might be successful at the start eventually Superman wins. Really Supes could kill Lex at any time since he is human.

Or even look at DeathStroke. He is an enhanced human, but no meta, but he has taken down the Titans before with prep. This has people like: Raven, Starfire, Superboy, Donna Troy, and Cyborg.

@lordofthenorth:

1.) Why aren't you getting this! Superman flew in with the U.S. military, he wasn't chilling at home, heard a nuclear bomb had been launched by the Soviets and decided to fly in and stop it. He was part of the U.S.' military intervention plan that, depending on how you interpret it, made the Soviets launch the nuke in the first place. Superman doesn't wear a banner for anyone nation, flying with the United States Military into war--even if the Soviet invaded, Superman, in character, would try to find a diplomatic way to get the Soviets to retreat first.

2.) Then you're missing the subtley! Batman was the hero we were associating ourselves with, his frustrations are supposed to be our frustrations. His victories our victories! When Batman angrily tells Superman why he intervened and explains that his plan was supposed to be to let them lead him to the Joker, the audience wasn't supposed to say "But Batman, Superman helped you" the audience is supposed to say "Superman is such an idiot and a douche." You may not have interpreted it that way, but that was Miller's intent. It's like the cool guy in a movie pushes a nerd when the cool guy notices the nerd talking to his girlfriend. In real life, you might say that the nerd had it coming for trying to get with the cool guy's girl, but wen the story is in the perspective of the nerd, we're supposed to say "That cool guy is a douche".

3.) If you're saying that this is an elseworld so it means the writer can write the hero how he pleases you are essentially saying that I am right, Superman was written out of character because it was an elseworld.

4.) Giggity.

5.) Would you take kindly to a story where Batman realizes that he can't ever stop crime in Gotham and so he gives up being Batman and works for the government exposing other heroes' SIDs because he believes that they can't win the fight either so crime fighting is better left to the police and law enforcementIf the answer is no, why the hell should I as a Superman fan be happy about a bastardized version of my favorite character?

6.) You truly are a Batman fan then. So you believe that John Wayne Garcy is more human than Jesus (Jesus, if the biblical version is to be believed, is not a homo-sapiens).

7.) AGAIN! SUPERMAN, IF HE THOUGHT THE PEOPLE OF EARTH AND METROPOLIS NO LONGER THOUGHT HE WAS A BEACON OF HOPE AND SAW HIM AS A THREAT WOULD STOP BEING SUPERMAN! HE WOULDN'T SELL OUT TO PLAY HERO! Why can't you understand this simple concept! And how is helping the Government of Miller's DCU going to paint Supes in a good light? The government was autocratic, they weren't looked upon favorable by the people.

8.) You;ll get the same response. The entire story is Superman's TDKR, it's to show off why he fights and what the appeal of his character is. The entire plot is dependent on Superman quitting, Superman returning and Superman finding a way to inspire once again. I don't know how anyone can say that this isn't a Superman story when the entire story is about Superman. The rest of the Justice League are secondary characters. Diana is his love interest, Batman his yang and the one who is driving him to inspire and FFS, the big bad is Lex Luthor. How can anyone say that this story is NOT a Superman story? This is almost the formula Red Son copied and it is a Superman story. The story ceases to be Kingdom Come without Superman. Without Batman and Wonder Woman, the story will still exist. Just have a different outcomes.

9.) Why was Superman in this story? Whenever Batman is in a Superman story, and they have to fight, Batman is there to remind Superman what it means to be human. In most Superman elseworlds where Superman faces Batman, it is Superman who is misguided and in need of guidance. See, Batman ideals, even in most elseworlds aren't curropted and he serves a function. See Kingdom Come, Red Son and Injustice.

In Miller's story, Superman is put in the story just as something for Batman to beat up. Basically, a giant fan service. He's not here to serve our hero a cautionary tale of what going down this path would lead to, he's simply here to be spoken down to. You know what would've been a better story? Had Batman killed Joker, Superman been came to stop him, having Batman beat Superman and then having Superman remind him of his humanity. That's called giving your character and arc, but what do I know?

@black_arrow: Fair enough, the Justice League was going political, but would it have been hard to create a JL allegory to pit Batman against if that were truly his plan? Isn't that what good writers often do? See Alan Moore's Watchmen, they're all allegorical heroes he made to fit his world. It wasn't, Miller wasn't trying to paint a message at all. He lost out on writing Action Comics to Byrne the year before and this was his strikeback.

@jayc1324: The entire story is Superman's TDKR, it's to show off why he fights and what the appeal of his character is. The entire plot is dependent on Superman quitting, Superman returning and Superman finding a way to inspire once again. I don't know how anyone can say that this isn't a Superman story when the entire story is about Superman. The rest of the Justice League are secondary characters. Diana is his love interest, Batman his yang and the one who is driving him to inspire and FFS, the big bad is Lex Luthor. How can anyone say that this story is NOT a Superman story? This is almost the formula Red Son copied and it is a Superman story

@superguy1591: I think of it as a justice league story where superman is a major player but not his story. It wasn't in a superman series, doesn't have his name on it anywhere, and you don't take a story with the entire justice league in it and say its a superman story.

This whole thing needs to die. I know the bat fans and DC won't because it stands for so much more than just a battle between 2 characters. However to think a man (however trained and prepped) he may be, can take down what is for all intents and purposes a god is very silly. Superman wins this and will always win this.

He used modified red krypronite which made supermans skin transparent. This caused him to absorb solar energy much faster and gain much more power. He lost complete control of his sensory powers and couldn't focus on anything specifically. A morals off Superman would still be able to planet bust in those conditions.

@superguy1591:

1) Freakin god it seems my only reposne to you can be rubing my face against the key board your whole argument is just based on him working for the government BOO FREAKIN HOO try seeing it from a differant persective for god sakes this Superman works fro the government now are his actions inline with how Superman would act

2) thats a horrible anology it fails completely becuase its only from yet again from your perspective how your veiw the story

3)No iam not what iam saying is since its in elseworlds story you can fiddle with a characters actions a little like in Injustice Joker tricked Clark into killing his family and that story had Superman crack and become a tirant

4) Awsomesauce

5)It depends and how the story is written if lets say Batman was betrayed in someway or he mental cracked i would be ok with it hell one elseworlds story has Batman turn into a Vampire and murder people and that was neat

6)Yes they are both human becuase of DNA (if Jesus did exist that is) yet again if a dog started talking and doing all the BS you mentioned before would you call him human

7)What Superman would stop saving people if they no longer shall him as a beacon of hope? wow your Superman is a dick and HE"S FREAKIN SUPERMAN that why people look at him as a beacon of light its not like the moment he joins the government people start think his lame

8) And you just distoryed your own argument in your last sentence thank you

9) And this one came out before all of those so you should complain more about them and iam sorry to tell you this but the human taking down the near invincable god is far more interesting than the oppisate becuase even thou it expected the underdog winning just gives people a better feeling

Iam sorry but Bruce went throught multiply arcs be it deciding to become Batman again even at his age dealing with his pride with the mutant leader, putting old ghost to rest and finaly having to change maybe even begain working towards something greater then he would have before

If Superman didn't have a high moral standard Batman would be dead already.

What's Batman going to do when Superman starts lobbing aircraft carriers like softballs?