You say a well placed punch can take out Bats..I say the same for Shang Chi. "
Ah, but I said can; I'm open to the opposite as well. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree here. For the record though, I believe Shang did beat all of his masters as a final test to prove his worth to his father. He also beat Moving Shadow, a man who easily took out an elite squad team and is basically a younger, loyaler, but more evil version of Shang-Chi. "
The difference is the skill level of his masters.Shang Chi is THE master of Kung-Fu in Marvel.None of the other kung-fu masters are worth a crap.I don't doubt that Batman could strike the first blow and a good shot at that.Batman's speed showings are just as good an as anyone whom has beaten Shang Chi.
@Vance Astro: Anyone who has beaten Shang-Chi? The only guys I can think of off the top of my head are Wolverine and Hiroim, the former to which Shang had also gotten the upper hand over and the latter to which Bruce Wayne doesn't hold a candle to. And again, you're falsely assuming Shang knows nothing but Chinese kung fu. Various people have called him a master of wushu (武術), which is a precise translation of martial arts in general.
Even if we assume it was intended that he knew only Chinese martial arts, which is pretty unbelievable again given the weapons he's used and the fact that he has beaten martial artists of other disciplines, you yourself quoted his official profile as saying he's a master of "kung fu and all related styles". Related could include Japanese and Korean martial arts which developed from Chinese techniques, as well as Indian ones which acted as a progenitor to Chinese martial arts. Does it mean he's a master of every style? Most likely not. Does it mean he's a master of only Chinese kung fu? Again, most likely not.
" @Vance Astro: Anyone who has beaten Shang-Chi? The only guys I can think of off the top of my head are Wolverine and Hiroim, the former to which Shang had also gotten the upper hand over and the latter to which Bruce Wayne doesn't hold a candle to. And again, you're falsely assuming Shang knows nothing but Chinese kung fu. Various people have called him a master of wushu (武術), which is a precise translation of martial arts in general.
Even if we assume it was intended that he knew only Chinese martial arts, which is pretty unbelievable again given the weapons he's used and the fact that he has beaten martial artists of other disciplines, you yourself quoted his official profile as saying he's a master of "kung fu and all related styles". Does it mean he's a master of every style? Most likely not. Does it mean he's a master of only Chinese kung fu? Again, most likely not. "
Most of your response has nothing to do with my point.First of all it says in his actual comics he is the "greatest living practitioner of Kung-Fu" meaning beating other Kung-Fu masters is insignificant because these "masters" have no feats accept loosing to Shang Chi whom is labled the best in their style of combat.Shang Chi didn't have the upperhand on Hiroim or Wolverine.Hiroim got his punched blocked then easily manhandled Shang Chi and Tarantula with one hand.Shang clearly says "I told you to run" we can't win this.
My point is beating Kung Fu masters when you are the best in that area isn't comparable to beating or stalemating masters that are knowledgeable in hundreds of different styles and are proclaimed by other characters to not be the best in any one style but the best on their earth.In order for Shang Chi to duplicate that he would have to beat or stalemate....Gamora,Mantis,Mister X,Wolverine,Captain America,or Black Panther.He's already lost to one of them.
@Vance Astro: I specifically said the former, pointing to Wolverine in First Class, and he did have the upper hand during that battle. As for the other masters? He's received compliments from Captain America and Black Panther at least. Nevertheless, "Master of Kung Fu" is just a title, and I see a flaw in your argument when you say that there are no fighters in the Marvel Universe that are better than Shang at Kung Fu. What about Iron Fist? They are at least equal. Not to mention the Mandarin and Temujin, both of whom managed to beat Iron Man with bare fists.
But I digress, you are right that Shang has not fought any noteworthy "master" martial artists (aside from Wolverine). But even then, you can't go assuming that because X = Y, and A > B, that A > X. If you're going to compare two comic book characters that have never met and are from different universes, then all you really can do is compare their in-panel feats. And I firmly stick by the fact that Batman hasn't been shown to be more impressive than Shang enough to warrant this an easy fight.
" @Vance Astro: I specifically said the former, pointing to Wolverine in First Class, and he did have the upper hand during that battle. As for the other masters? He's received compliments from Captain America and Black Panther at least. Nevertheless, "Master of Kung Fu" is just a title, and I see a flaw in your argument when you say that there are no fighters in the Marvel Universe that are better than Shang at Kung Fu. What about Iron Fist? They are at least equal. Not to mention the Mandarin and Temujin, both of whom managed to beat Iron Man with bare fists. But I digress, you are right that Shang has not fought any noteworthy "master" martial artists (aside from Wolverine). But even then, you can't go assuming that because X = Y, and A > B, that A > X. If you're going to compare two comic book characters that have never met and are from different universes, then all you really can do is compare their in-panel feats. And I firmly stick by the fact that Batman hasn't been shown to be more impressive than Shang enough to warrant this an easy fight. "
1.Wolverine in first class was a less experienced and skill version.He's lost to a Feral Wolverine..basically an animal with Wolverine's body.Possibly less skill than a regular Wolverine at that point.Wolverine made quick work of him too.
2.He's never fought or beaten Cap or Black Panther.I didn't mention them to say they don't give him any credit.I said Batman fought DC's best and stalemated or beat them.Shang Chi didn't do the same in the Marvel U.
3.Iron Fist,the Mandarin,and Temugin's styles aren't specific to Kung-Fu.The "Mandarin's" are skilled in many styles.None really specified.Danny knows styles outside of Kung-Fu.Which is why Shang Chi is noted as the greatest living practioner of Kung-Fu because that's what his persona is based on.I didn't make this up.Shang Chi's writer did.A caption in one of his mini's clearly says "Shang Chi..the greatest living practioner of Kung Fu".My argument is based on a quote not something I pulled out of my ass for the sake of argument.All his masters..the people who trained Shang Chi are far below him.So beating them isn't comparable to what Batman has done.Ra's Al Ghul is one of the best if not the best swordsman in the DCU and Batman owned him...In a sword fight.
4.I'm not using ABC logic.I'm not saying because blank beat blank he can beat someone else.I'm saying Batman has a better display of skill because he's outfought people using their styles without being "the greatest living practitioner of that style".He's stalemated and or beaten the very best in his universe and he has shown to learn techniques from high level masters of combat..with in the fight using them to counter and win.Batman is not only a very skilled fighter but he's one of the smartest fighters around.Fighting Batman is like fighting Captain America with Reed Richards\Tony Stark level intellect..and that's in combat not in the general sense.
.................in the words of Mike Tyson..............."F*C* OFF!" "
You don't think we can tell you clearly don't know anything about the characters you're talking about.How can you can mad when it's obvious? You are either trolling for a reaction or seriously pretending to know what you're talking about which we can see you don't.
1.Wolverine in first class was a less experienced and skill version.He's lost to a Feral Wolverine..basically an animal with Wolverine's body.Possibly less skill than a regular Wolverine at that point.Wolverine made quick work of him too.
2.He's never fought or beaten Cap or Black Panther.I didn't mention them to say they don't give him any credit.I said Batman fought DC's best and stalemated or beat them.Shang Chi didn't do the same in the Marvel U.
3.Iron Fist,the Mandarin,and Temugin's styles aren't specific to Kung-Fu.The "Mandarin's" are skilled in many styles.None really specified.Danny knows styles outside of Kung-Fu.Which is why Shang Chi is noted as the greatest living practioner of Kung-Fu because that's what his persona is based on.I didn't make this up.Shang Chi's writer did.A caption in one of his mini's clearly says "Shang Chi..the greatest living practioner of Kung Fu".My argument is based on a quote not something I pulled out of my ass for the sake of argument.All his masters..the people who trained Shang Chi are far below him.So beating them isn't comparable to what Batman has done.Ra's Al Ghul is one of the best if not the best swordsman in the DCU and Batman owned him...In a sword fight.
4.I'm not using ABC logic.I'm not saying because blank beat blank he can beat someone else.I'm saying Batman has a better display of skill because he's outfought people using their styles without being "the greatest living practitioner of that style".He's stalemated and or beaten the very best in his universe and he has shown to learn techniques from high level masters of combat..with in the fight using them to counter and win.Batman is not only a very skilled fighter but he's one of the smartest fighters around.Fighting Batman is like fighting Captain America with Reed Richards\Tony Stark level intellect..and that's in combat not in the general sense. "
1. When you've lived as long as Wolverine, a few years of experience means nothing. The fact is Shang got the upper hand on him even after Wolverine's already gotten over 100 years of fighting experience, had his adamantium claws, and was fully "sane" in the head. The additional fact that Shang has held off Thing, taken on multiple meta-humans, and could hang with Spider-man makes his loss to Feral Wolverine even more PIS.
2. Yes, I'll concede to that fact. Shang has never fought Cap or BP, but unless he's actually lost to them you're just hypothesizing. The fact is they acknowledge him as a highly skilled martial artist, and in Marvel Knights, Shang's been referred to as the "Best empty-handed fighter alive". Also, Shang did show that he was vastly superior to Nick Fury and Jimmy Woo together. While I'm not sure of the latter, the former is definitely not a pushover having regularly sparred with Cap.
3. Temugin DOES use "Kung Fu". Iron Man specifically says, and I quote, "Last time he managed to beat me with nothing but his maxed-out kung fu." My point is that "Master of Kung Fu", as well as "Greatest living practitioner of Kung Fu" is only a title and doesn't impose restrictions just as it doesn't make him the absolute best - unless you want to agree to the fact that Shang is better than Temugin and subsequently also has Iron Man-busting skills.
4. Now I just don't understand your logic. You say Batman has beaten people with their own styles despite not being a master in that style; but in general terms, beating a master makes you a master. So ok, Batman's proved he's a master in a handful of martial arts styles - why does that make him better than Shang-Chi, who is also a master of several martial arts styles (and I don't care how you interpret the term, "kung fu" is not a style, neither are "all related styles")?
Not sure if he actually held him off. He was unable to actually hurt the Thing, and the Thing himself wondered if Shang Chi was seriously trying to hurt him. In regards to hanging with Spider-Man, it's just another instance of CIS on Spider-Man, since he has a habit of holding back against human level opponents. As a result, I don't find him holding his own against Spider-Man an impressive feat, because several others have done it, and some of them weren't even on Shang Chi's level. The feral Wolverine owning Shang Chi wasn't PIS at all, mainly because Wolverine was more experienced than he was in their previous encounter in First Class.
1. When you've lived as long as Wolverine, a few years of experience means nothing. The fact is Shang got the upper hand on him even after Wolverine's already gotten over 100 years of fighting experience, had his adamantium claws, and was fully "sane" in the head. The additional fact that Shang has held off Thing, taken on multiple meta-humans, and could hang with Spider-man makes his loss to Feral Wolverine even more PIS.
2. Yes, I'll concede to that fact. Shang has never fought Cap or BP, but unless he's actually lost to them you're just hypothesizing. The fact is they acknowledge him as a highly skilled martial artist, and in Marvel Knights, Shang's been referred to as the "Best empty-handed fighter alive". Also, Shang did show that he was vastly superior to Nick Fury and Jimmy Woo together. While I'm not sure of the latter, the former is definitely not a pushover having regularly sparred with Cap.
3. Temugin DOES use "Kung Fu". Iron Man specifically says, and I quote, "Last time he managed to beat me with nothing but his maxed-out kung fu." My point is that "Master of Kung Fu", as well as "Greatest living practitioner of Kung Fu" is only a title and doesn't impose restrictions just as it doesn't make him the absolute best - unless you want to agree to the fact that Shang is better than Temugin and subsequently also has Iron Man-busting skills.
4. Now I just don't understand your logic. You say Batman has beaten people with their own styles despite not being a master in that style; but in general terms, beating a master makes you a master. So ok, Batman's proved he's a master in a handful of martial arts styles - why does that make him better than Shang-Chi, who is also a master of several martial arts styles (and I don't care how you interpret the term, "kung fu" is not a style, neither are "all related styles")? "
1.Why are you still making a case for it.It wasn't even a real fight they were sparring.Experience means nothing to me anyway.Wolverine was obviously less skilled back then.Shang Chi never beat Wolverine...but Wolverine beat him.Case closed.
2.What people say and what Shang Chi does are two different things.Wolverine called Elektra the greatest ninja alive.Iron Fist gave Ronin props on his combat skills as did Cap for She-Hulk and her alter ego Jen Walters.Props mean nothing without showings in combat.Doesn't mean it's true.Things people say have to be backed up by evidence.When someone says "Shang Chi is the greatest living practitioner of Kung Fu" I can go with that because as far as just strictly Kung-Fu..there is obviously nobody better.
3.Temugin does Kung Fu but he has more styles than that under his belt.Wolverine also knows Kung Fu but nobody ever gives him props for it.Shang Chi is THE Kung-Fu master.Stop trying to make it seem as there are other powerful characters who focus solely on Kung-Fu.There isn't.Besting Nick Fury and Jimmy Woo isn't a feat that should even be mentioned here.It's a low level feat.Fury is old as hell and Woo was never that good to begin with.Shang Chi may be better than Temugin AT KUNG-FU doesn't mean he can beat him or that he's a better fighter over all.Temugin is superhuman in all areas..that's why he beat Iron Man,he was relying solely on martial arts.His attacks weren't him amping his chi he's just simply superhuman.
4.My logic is this.Shang Chi was trained since he was a child...he moved up the ladder,defeated various masters and eventually he became THE Master of Kung-Fu.As far as human level characters though there isn't a fighter that focuses solely on Kung-Fu that is better than him.So anyone "Kung Fu masters" he's beaten..it's not very impressive because all he did was become good enough to dominate the style as a whole.It's like a teacher beating his student at that point.Now.Batman is a master swordsman but not as good as Ra's Al Ghul.Several encounters between them haven't been in Batman's favor.Batman gets him one on one,just swords,owns Ra's Al Ghul and impales him.This is more impressive because Batman isn't the greatest swordsman in the DCU.He might not even be top 10 and he's not above Ra's.
Now you asked why Shang Chi isn't better than Batman because he's learned a handful of styles. A.He knows alot more than a handful of styles..over 127 styles is more than a handful. B.Batman has better displays of skill in combat.Shang Chi hasn't really fought anyone of significance accept Iron Fist and Wolverine. C.Batman is the more versatile and smarter fighter with peak human agility.Batman is a master tactician and a genius in combat.
What makes Shang Chi better or even close to him? When it comes to actually showing you can do something in a fight.Characters that people think are below Shang Chi have alot better showings in that area.And I don't want to hear that "He's not A-List" excuse because Shang Chi has his own comics a couple of mini's and plenty of appearences and time to prove he is what people say he is.This is the reason I keep mentioning him losing to Wolverine.Other than that he hasn't fought anyone that people would consider high tier in Marvel accept the Cat and Iron Fist...he didn't beat either of them.So please help me to understand why people think he can beat Batman and is so high tier?
1.Why are you still making a case for it.It wasn't even a real fight they were sparring.Experience means nothing to me anyway.Wolverine was obviously less skilled back then.Shang Chi never beat Wolverine...but Wolverine beat him.Case closed.
Please enlighten me as to how Feral Wolverine was more skilled, and why it's "obvious", because logically it doesn't make sense, and judging by what I saw in the comic it was more PIS than anything else. And just because experience means nothing to you doesn't mean it isn't important, quite the contrary as most professional fighters, be it in MMA or boxing, value experience more than skill.
2.What people say and what Shang Chi does are two different things.Wolverine called Elektra the greatest ninja alive.Iron Fist gave Ronin props on his combat skills as did Cap for She-Hulk and her alter ego Jen Walters.Props mean nothing without showings in combat.Doesn't mean it's true.Things people say have to be backed up by evidence.When someone says "Shang Chi is the greatest living practitioner of Kung Fu" I can go with that because as far as just strictly Kung-Fu..there is obviously nobody better.
I can't help but sense bias here. When people call him the "Greatest living practitioner of Kung-Fu" you take it to mean that he knows nothing but Chinese martial arts. When people say he's the "Greatest empty handed fighter alive," you say it means nothing. Of course, I already conceded to the fact that his lack of showings renders comments about him moot, so I don't see what's left to debate here.
3.Temugin does Kung Fu but he has more styles than that under his belt.Wolverine also knows Kung Fu but nobody ever gives him props for it.Shang Chi is THE Kung-Fu master.Stop trying to make it seem as there are other powerful characters who focus solely on Kung-Fu.There isn't.Besting Nick Fury and Jimmy Woo isn't a feat that should even be mentioned here.It's a low level feat.Fury is old as hell and Woo was never that good to begin with.Shang Chi may be better than Temugin AT KUNG-FU doesn't mean he can beat him or that he's a better fighter over all.Temugin is superhuman in all areas..that's why he beat Iron Man,he was relying solely on martial arts.His attacks weren't him amping his chi he's just simply superhuman.
Well, I suppose it really doesn't matter in this thread, but I'll clear up some problems with what you said here. For starters, it doesn't matter what styles Temugin knows because Tony Stark explicitly said that it was his "Maxed out Kung-Fu" that beat him (unless you want to concede to "Kung-Fu" covering more styles than you're assuming). Additionally, he does amp his chi - he did it against Iron Man, he did it against Living Laser, and he did it against the Hulk (with less than spectacular results); amping his chi is explained as what gives him the ability to pull off superhuman feats.
4.My logic is this.Shang Chi was trained since he was a child...he moved up the ladder,defeated various masters and eventually he became THE Master of Kung-Fu.As far as human level characters though there isn't a fighter that focuses solely on Kung-Fu that is better than him.So anyone "Kung Fu masters" he's beaten..it's not very impressive because all he did was become good enough to dominate the style as a whole.It's like a teacher beating his student at that point.Now.Batman is a master swordsman but not as good as Ra's Al Ghul.Several encounters between them haven't been in Batman's favor.Batman gets him one on one,just swords,owns Ra's Al Ghul and impales him.This is more impressive because Batman isn't the greatest swordsman in the DCU.He might not even be top 10 and he's not above Ra's.
Wait - so Batman is a weaker swordsman than Ra's Al Ghul, yet he beat him in a duel. Again, I don't understand what the logic is behind your argument. And really, if Shang had to defeat his masters in order to obtain the title for himself, why is it any less impressive? Kung-Fu, even in the western context of covering Chinese martial arts, is NOT a single style (in fact, in our world there are roughly 100 currently known styles of CMA). By saying Shang is a Master of Kung Fu and related styles, that's still a fair amount.
Now you asked why Shang Chi isn't better than Batman because he's learned a handful of styles. A.He knows alot more than a handful of styles..over 127 styles is more than a handful.
Like I said, even given your limited, low-range perspective of Shang's knowledge, he has still mastered close to 100 different styles. Sure, it's not over 100, but like you keep bringing up Batman isn't a master in all of the styles he knows, despite mastering the techniques, whereas Shang Chi is THE master. And once again, assuming that Shang knows no other styles aside from Chinese Kung Fu is just turning a blind eye to things.
B.Batman has better displays of skill in combat.Shang Chi hasn't really fought anyone of significance accept Iron Fist and Wolverine.
Ok, I'll give you that in terms of martial artists. But what about Spider-man, the Thing, Hiroim and Midnight Sun (who, by the way, is a martial artist despite his transformation)? I'll admit he only tied the former two and barely held against the latter two, but that's a lot more than what we've seen others do.
C.Batman is the more versatile and smarter fighter with peak human agility.Batman is a master tactician and a genius in combat.
Shang is also at peak human agility, even past it with chi manipulation, and he's hardly the stupid fighter you make him out to be. The latter, if you've read MOKF, then you should be well aware of. Overall he's nowhere near as smart as Bruce, but that means very little in a random hand-to-hand combat encounter.
What makes Shang Chi better or even close to him? When it comes to actually showing you can do something in a fight.Characters that people think are below Shang Chi have alot better showings in that area.And I don't want to hear that "He's not A-List" excuse because Shang Chi has his own comics a couple of mini's and plenty of appearences and time to prove he is what people say he is.
How so exactly? How often does Shang-Chi have a reason to fight someone like Cap or Black Panther? His story arcs usually follow his own cast of characters and direction, fighting against his devil-doctor daddy and his assassins. Back when he was popular he did go against some notable adversaries - namely Spider-man, Thing and Silver Samurai. If you want a more recent example he's fought and matched Wolverine; but in your eyes it just doesn't seem like anything aside from his out-of-place loss means anything. That blatant bias alone kills my motivation to argue with you any further.
This is the reason I keep mentioning him losing to Wolverine.Other than that he hasn't fought anyone that people would consider high tier in Marvel accept the Cat and Iron Fist...he didn't beat either of them.So please help me to understand why people think he can beat Batman and is so high tier? "
Shang Chi has defeated Cat, and I believe gained an upper hand on Daniel Rand in at least one confrontation (I'm personally leaning towards them being equals). On a different note, Batman had a chance to fight Captain America in the JLA/Avengers crossover and deduced that he would have probably lost if they fought seriously.
1.Why are you still making a case for it.It wasn't even a real fight they were sparring.Experience means nothing to me anyway.Wolverine was obviously less skilled back then.Shang Chi never beat Wolverine...but Wolverine beat him.Case closed.
Please enlighten me as to how Feral Wolverine was more skilled, and why it's "obvious", because logically it doesn't make sense, and judging by what I saw in the comic it was more PIS than anything else. And just because experience means nothing to you doesn't mean it isn't important, quite the contrary as most professional fighters, be it in MMA or boxing, value experience more than skill.
2.What people say and what Shang Chi does are two different things.Wolverine called Elektra the greatest ninja alive.Iron Fist gave Ronin props on his combat skills as did Cap for She-Hulk and her alter ego Jen Walters.Props mean nothing without showings in combat.Doesn't mean it's true.Things people say have to be backed up by evidence.When someone says "Shang Chi is the greatest living practitioner of Kung Fu" I can go with that because as far as just strictly Kung-Fu..there is obviously nobody better.
I can't help but sense bias here. When people call him the "Greatest living practitioner of Kung-Fu" you take it to mean that he knows nothing but Chinese martial arts. When people say he's the "Greatest empty handed fighter alive," you say it means nothing. Of course, I already conceded to the fact that his lack of showings renders comments about him moot, so I don't see what's left to debate here.
3.Temugin does Kung Fu but he has more styles than that under his belt.Wolverine also knows Kung Fu but nobody ever gives him props for it.Shang Chi is THE Kung-Fu master.Stop trying to make it seem as there are other powerful characters who focus solely on Kung-Fu.There isn't.Besting Nick Fury and Jimmy Woo isn't a feat that should even be mentioned here.It's a low level feat.Fury is old as hell and Woo was never that good to begin with.Shang Chi may be better than Temugin AT KUNG-FU doesn't mean he can beat him or that he's a better fighter over all.Temugin is superhuman in all areas..that's why he beat Iron Man,he was relying solely on martial arts.His attacks weren't him amping his chi he's just simply superhuman.
Well, I suppose it really doesn't matter in this thread, but I'll clear up some problems with what you said here. For starters, it doesn't matter what styles Temugin knows because Tony Stark explicitly said that it was his "Maxed out Kung-Fu" that beat him (unless you want to concede to "Kung-Fu" covering more styles than you're assuming). Additionally, he does amp his chi - he did it against Iron Man, he did it against Living Laser, and he did it against the Hulk (with less than spectacular results); amping his chi is explained as what gives him the ability to pull off superhuman feats.
4.My logic is this.Shang Chi was trained since he was a child...he moved up the ladder,defeated various masters and eventually he became THE Master of Kung-Fu.As far as human level characters though there isn't a fighter that focuses solely on Kung-Fu that is better than him.So anyone "Kung Fu masters" he's beaten..it's not very impressive because all he did was become good enough to dominate the style as a whole.It's like a teacher beating his student at that point.Now.Batman is a master swordsman but not as good as Ra's Al Ghul.Several encounters between them haven't been in Batman's favor.Batman gets him one on one,just swords,owns Ra's Al Ghul and impales him.This is more impressive because Batman isn't the greatest swordsman in the DCU.He might not even be top 10 and he's not above Ra's.
Wait - so Batman is a weaker swordsman than Ra's Al Ghul, yet he beat him in a duel. Again, I don't understand what the logic is behind your argument. And really, if Shang had to defeat his masters in order to obtain the title for himself, why is it any less impressive? Kung-Fu, even in the western context of covering Chinese martial arts, is NOT a single style (in fact, in our world there are roughly 100 currently known styles of CMA). By saying Shang is a Master of Kung Fu and related styles, that's still a fair amount.
Now you asked why Shang Chi isn't better than Batman because he's learned a handful of styles. A.He knows alot more than a handful of styles..over 127 styles is more than a handful.
Like I said, even given your limited, low-range perspective of Shang's knowledge, he has still mastered close to 100 different styles. Sure, it's not over 100, but like you keep bringing up Batman isn't a master in all of the styles he knows, despite mastering the techniques, whereas Shang Chi is THE master. And once again, assuming that Shang knows no other styles aside from Chinese Kung Fu is just turning a blind eye to things.
B.Batman has better displays of skill in combat.Shang Chi hasn't really fought anyone of significance accept Iron Fist and Wolverine.
Ok, I'll give you that in terms of martial artists. But what about Spider-man, the Thing, Hiroim and Midnight Sun (who, by the way, is a martial artist despite his transformation)? I'll admit he only tied the former two and barely held against the latter two, but that's a lot more than what we've seen others do.
C.Batman is the more versatile and smarter fighter with peak human agility.Batman is a master tactician and a genius in combat.
Shang is also at peak human agility, even past it with chi manipulation, and he's hardly the stupid fighter you make him out to be. The latter, if you've read MOKF, then you should be well aware of. Overall he's nowhere near as smart as Bruce, but that means very little in a random hand-to-hand combat encounter.
What makes Shang Chi better or even close to him? When it comes to actually showing you can do something in a fight.Characters that people think are below Shang Chi have alot better showings in that area.And I don't want to hear that "He's not A-List" excuse because Shang Chi has his own comics a couple of mini's and plenty of appearences and time to prove he is what people say he is.
How so exactly? How often does Shang-Chi have a reason to fight someone like Cap or Black Panther? His story arcs usually follow his own cast of characters and direction, fighting against his devil-doctor daddy and his assassins. Back when he was popular he did go against some notable adversaries - namely Spider-man, Thing and Silver Samurai. If you want a more recent example he's fought and matched Wolverine; but in your eyes it just doesn't seem like anything aside from his out-of-place loss means anything. That blatant bias alone kills my motivation to argue with you any further.
This is the reason I keep mentioning him losing to Wolverine.Other than that he hasn't fought anyone that people would consider high tier in Marvel accept the Cat and Iron Fist...he didn't beat either of them.So please help me to understand why people think he can beat Batman and is so high tier? "
Shang Chi has defeated Cat, and I believe gained an upper hand on Daniel Rand in at least one confrontation (I'm personally leaning towards them being equals). On a different note, Batman had a chance to fight Captain America in the JLA/Avengers crossover and deduced that he would have probably lost if they fought seriously.
"
1.When Wolverine had become Feral..he was already more skilled than when he first sparred with Shang Chi.Stop looking for excuse of why Wolverine can't beat Shang Chi.You give someone who hasn't really beaten anyone credible to much credit.Shang Chi has never done anything that would suggest he can take even Feral Wolverine because even that version of Wolverine has credible wins over top level fighters NOT just Shang Chi...and Shang can't match it.Experience isn't important.How long you've been fighting doesn't mean goddamn thing.What you've actually learned in that time period and the quality of training you recieved is important..which is while Marvel still rates Thor lower than Ares and Wolverine.All 3 have been alive way past human longevity but Wolverine and Ares are the better trained fighters.Experience doesn't mean anything in real life either...not in MMA and not in boxing.In fact the most experienced fighters end up losing to someone younger and more hungary for a win.
2.IT'S IN HIS DAMN COMICS!!! I didn't make up that title.He was called the greatest living practitioner of Kung-Fu in his own book.Since you're so you're so adamant on proving that he knows more than Chinese martial arts...PROVE IT! I'm tired or hearing people's hypothesis and theories.Prove something.Since the writers don't know what their talking about..prove them wrong.You don't se what's left to debate? I can actually show evidence that he's not the best empty-handed fighter in Marvel.You can't show anything to prove otherwise to the BS claim you're making!
3.It doesn't matter what Tony Stark says.He was briefly trained by Captain America in no set style.He doesn't know sh#t about fighting styles.Temugin's showings offensively against Iron Man actually had nothing to do with chi or physical strength.It's the same thing Daredevil used to break metal.Pinpointing weak spots in it and striking them.
4.How is progressively getting good enough to dominate one style more impressive than getting good enough on the fly to beat someone using the style they have passed you in? Since you want to pretend that like Shang Chi..Temugin and Iron Fist are on his level of Kung-Fu..then Shang Chi's road to becoming the best is in complete because there is still too very good fighters knowledgeable of the style and he hasn't beaten them.They only got better.If he had beaten them...it's alot more impressive than beating masters with no feats accept loosing to him.
5.How is assuming that Shang Chi knows nothing but Chinese martial arts turning a blind eye to things when nothing else has been stated or shown in comics and in the Official handbook there is nothing that says he knows anything other than Chinese Martial arts.You can call me ignorant or make all the speculation you want...I'm not going with it when you have no proof.
6.Spider-Man is a terrible fighter and the Thing is nowhere near Shang's level and people like Daredevil,Wolverine and Black Panther have fought the entire F4 and almost succeeded.Hiroim could have killed Shang Chi.He obviously wasn't going full on and Shang didn't so anything but chi amp and block and hold a punch.Midnight is the only impressive win you mentioned.This is going back years ago so obviously he wasn't as skilled as he could have been but I will give him credit for the win.However...there are several characters people would claim to be below Shang Chi..just in Marvel that have far more impressive wins.
7.Don't use the "own set of characters excuse with me" Iron Fist's comic has the goes by the same thing.All the characters that Iron Fist fights in those comics actually have showings in combat and accolades to let you know how good they are making his wins impressive.There aren't very many fighters that appear in the Hands of Shang Chi or Shang Chi master of Kung Fu that have any showings or accolades at all.So when Shang Chi beats them..you can't call it a feat because they haven't done anything.Batman has fought several super powered characters that would completely destroy everyone you just named.Still Batman looks more impressive.Like I was just saying about Iron Fist,Batman has beaten and stalemated masters with actual high level showings.The very top tier in the DCU.The best Shang has fought is Wolverine and he lost to him..badly.
8.He's never gained the upperhand on Danny.Every time he's fought Iron Fist they either didn't hit each other at all or got the same exact number of hits.I've never seen Shang Chi beat the Cat.Which still wouldn't make him better or even close to Bats.And crossovers aren't canon and even if they were Shang can't and hasn't beaten Cap either so you have no case to make for it.
@Vance Astro: I wish you were in the Bronze Tiger vs Lady Shiva thread, I totally agree what people say means very little if not backed up by actual events in comics or feats.
@Geno: Btw Batman is a master in all martial arts, not the master but he definitely is a master in all the styles. He has been described as perfecting each one or mastering it to an unheard of degree.
" @Vance Astro: I wish you were in the Bronze Tiger vs Lady Shiva thread, I totally agree what people say means very little if not backed up by actual events in comics or feats.
I would post there but I don't know as much about Shiva as I do Bronze Tiger.I know their are several people who are more knowledgeable on DC Martial artists than me.
" @Vance Astro: I wish you were in the Bronze Tiger vs Lady Shiva thread, I totally agree what people say means very little if not backed up by actual events in comics or feats.
I would post there but I don't know as much about Shiva as I do Bronze Tiger.I know their are several people who are more knowledgeable on DC Martial artists than me. "
I just didn't like that Gamblers main argument was that Bronze Tiger said that it would take the whole league to defeat Shiva while I was looking at feats, I eventually got him to post some Shiva feats I hadn't seen which makes me at least need to reexamine their abilities.
I know I've said this already, but Shang Chi being considered the greatest practitioner of Chinese martial arts is only relevant to his book and in the Marvel Universe. It has nothing to do with Batman, who is from a different universe. On top of that, there's isn't any evidence to prove that Shang Chi has mastery of fighting styles outside of Chinese martial arts, so I'm wondering why that's being debated.
" I know I've said this already, but Shang Chi being considered the greatest practitioner of Chinese martial arts is only relevant to his book and in the Marvel Universe. It has nothing to do with Batman, who is from a different universe. On top of that, there's isn't any evidence to prove that Shang Chi has mastery of fighting styles outside of Chinese martial arts, so I'm wondering why that's being debated. "
People can't get over the fact they gave Shang Chi more credit than he's worth.
" @Vance Astro: I wish you were in the Bronze Tiger vs Lady Shiva thread, I totally agree what people say means very little if not backed up by actual events in comics or feats. "
When its one of the actual characters involved talking about the other character involved, its huge. If you have a battle thread between Shiva and Bronze Tiger, and there's a scan that shows Bronze Tiger stating Shiva is better, what more argument is there? Its one thing if Batman says Plastic Man is the most powerful person in the World. Its another when you have one martial artist talking about another martial artist. Especially when they have thrown down.
" @Vance Astro: I wish you were in the Bronze Tiger vs Lady Shiva thread, I totally agree what people say means very little if not backed up by actual events in comics or feats. "
When its one of the actual characters involved talking about the other character involved, its huge. If you have a battle thread between Shiva and Bronze Tiger, and there's a scan that shows Bronze Tiger stating Shiva is better, what more argument is there? Its one thing if Batman says Plastic Man is the most powerful person in the World. Its another when you have one martial artist talking about another martial artist. Especially when they have thrown down. "
" @Vance Astro: I wish you were in the Bronze Tiger vs Lady Shiva thread, I totally agree what people say means very little if not backed up by actual events in comics or feats. "
When its one of the actual characters involved talking about the other character involved, its huge. If you have a battle thread between Shiva and Bronze Tiger, and there's a scan that shows Bronze Tiger stating Shiva is better, what more argument is there? Its one thing if Batman says Plastic Man is the most powerful person in the World. Its another when you have one martial artist talking about another martial artist. Especially when they have thrown down. "
" @Vance Astro: I wish you were in the Bronze Tiger vs Lady Shiva thread, I totally agree what people say means very little if not backed up by actual events in comics or feats. "
When its one of the actual characters involved talking about the other character involved, its huge. If you have a battle thread between Shiva and Bronze Tiger, and there's a scan that shows Bronze Tiger stating Shiva is better, what more argument is there? Its one thing if Batman says Plastic Man is the most powerful person in the World. Its another when you have one martial artist talking about another martial artist. Especially when they have thrown down. "
I disagree, because, as you showed, Batgirl and Batman both did not think they could beat Shiva yet both have. Still I concede because of the feats.
" @Vance Astro: I wish you were in the Bronze Tiger vs Lady Shiva thread, I totally agree what people say means very little if not backed up by actual events in comics or feats. "
When its one of the actual characters involved talking about the other character involved, its huge. If you have a battle thread between Shiva and Bronze Tiger, and there's a scan that shows Bronze Tiger stating Shiva is better, what more argument is there? Its one thing if Batman says Plastic Man is the most powerful person in the World. Its another when you have one martial artist talking about another martial artist. Especially when they have thrown down. "
I disagree, because, as you showed, Batgirl and Batman both did not think they could beat Shiva yet both have. Still I concede because of the feats. "
When Batgirl thought that, Shiva killed her. And Batman's never defeated Shiva without Robin's help. (except in Superman/Batman which was bs)
" @Vance Astro: I wish you were in the Bronze Tiger vs Lady Shiva thread, I totally agree what people say means very little if not backed up by actual events in comics or feats. "
When its one of the actual characters involved talking about the other character involved, its huge. If you have a battle thread between Shiva and Bronze Tiger, and there's a scan that shows Bronze Tiger stating Shiva is better, what more argument is there? Its one thing if Batman says Plastic Man is the most powerful person in the World. Its another when you have one martial artist talking about another martial artist. Especially when they have thrown down. "
I disagree, because, as you showed, Batgirl and Batman both did not think they could beat Shiva yet both have. Still I concede because of the feats. "
When Batgirl thought that, Shiva killed her. And Batman's never defeated Shiva without Robin's help. (except in Superman/Batman which was bs) "
So was that the same issue where Shiva revived her and then lost? because that means she still estimated wrong because she did not improve any from being "killed"
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about whether Batman beating Shiva is BS. Personally I think his character history and his feats make beating shiva very plausible.
" @Vance Astro: I wish you were in the Bronze Tiger vs Lady Shiva thread, I totally agree what people say means very little if not backed up by actual events in comics or feats. "
When its one of the actual characters involved talking about the other character involved, its huge. If you have a battle thread between Shiva and Bronze Tiger, and there's a scan that shows Bronze Tiger stating Shiva is better, what more argument is there? Its one thing if Batman says Plastic Man is the most powerful person in the World. Its another when you have one martial artist talking about another martial artist. Especially when they have thrown down. "
I disagree, because, as you showed, Batgirl and Batman both did not think they could beat Shiva yet both have. Still I concede because of the feats. "
When Batgirl thought that, Shiva killed her. And Batman's never defeated Shiva without Robin's help. (except in Superman/Batman which was bs) "
So was that the same issue where Shiva revived her and then lost? because that means she still estimated wrong because she did not improve any from being "killed" I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about whether Batman beating Shiva is BS. Personally I think his character history and his feats make beating shiva very plausible. "
That's debatable. Cassandra can copy moves, having faced her twice she could have very easily picked up moves she didn't have before. And she barely won. Lets be honest, at the end Cassandra collapsed right next to Shiva.
And I agree that Batman should be able to beat Shiva from time to time. But the way it happened in Superman/Batman was bs.
1.When Wolverine had become Feral..he was already more skilled than when he first sparred with Shang Chi.Stop looking for excuse of why Wolverine can't beat Shang Chi.You give someone who hasn't really beaten anyone credible to much credit.Shang Chi has never done anything that would suggest he can take even Feral Wolverine because even that version of Wolverine has credible wins over top level fighters NOT just Shang Chi...and Shang can't match it.
If Feral Wolverine had taken out other credible fighters, then why, out of all of the people he's beaten, is Shang suddenly the lowest ranked?
Experience isn't important.How long you've been fighting doesn't mean goddamn thing.What you've actually learned in that time period and the quality of training you recieved is important..which is while Marvel still rates Thor lower than Ares and Wolverine.All 3 have been alive way past human longevity but Wolverine and Ares are the better trained fighters.Experience doesn't mean anything in real life either...not in MMA and not in boxing.In fact the most experienced fighters end up losing to someone younger and more hungary for a win.
Eh... you've got a point there.
2.IT'S IN HIS DAMN COMICS!!! I didn't make up that title.He was called the greatest living practitioner of Kung-Fu in his own book.Since you're so you're so adamant on proving that he knows more than Chinese martial arts...PROVE IT! I'm tired or hearing people's hypothesis and theories.Prove something.Since the writers don't know what their talking about..prove them wrong.You don't se what's left to debate? I can actually show evidence that he's not the best empty-handed fighter in Marvel.You can't show anything to prove otherwise to the BS claim you're making!
What's the bullshit claim that I'm making here? That Shang Chi knows more than just Chinese martial arts? I've already supported it with the fact that Shang uses weapons from other disciplines outsideof CMA, and if that's not enough, what else is there? It's not as though he's explicitly used a real-world CMA style during combat. Like I said though, Chinese martial arts still consists of close to 100 unique styles, including San Shou and Jeet Kune Do - both of which use a wide variety of "foreign" techniques taken from boxing, judo and muay thai. And frankly, Shang's upbringing has always been referred to as one in "Martial Arts" by his father - he never even once, to my knowledge, used the term "Kung Fu". Of course, I keep telling you that Kung Fu can refer to more than just Chinese martial arts, but I see you have a way of ignoring that fact. Oh, and then of course there's the Official Marvel word on the matter...
Before you accuse me of questioning the writers, maybe you should check your own sources.
3.It doesn't matter what Tony Stark says.He was briefly trained by Captain America in no set style.He doesn't know sh#t about fighting styles.Temugin's showings offensively against Iron Man actually had nothing to do with chi or physical strength.It's the same thing Daredevil used to break metal.Pinpointing weak spots in it and striking them.
Except he did amp his chi - it was in the damn comic. Still not enough evidence? He does it again in Agents of Atlas when he fights the Hulk. Tony Stark may not have known what he was talking about, but I doubt the writers intended to have his speech mislead the reader into thinking Temugin used something to beat him that he really didn't. Honestly, he could have just said "martial arts", but he didn't. The same could be said for the Mandarin.
4.How is progressively getting good enough to dominate one style more impressive than getting good enough on the fly to beat someone using the style they have passed you in? Since you want to pretend that like Shang Chi..Temugin and Iron Fist are on his level of Kung-Fu..then Shang Chi's road to becoming the best is in complete because there is still too very good fighters knowledgeable of the style and he hasn't beaten them.They only got better.If he had beaten them...it's alot more impressive than beating masters with no feats accept loosing to him.
And I agree. If I had any creative influence on the way Marvel makes their comics, I'd have at least another match between Shang and Iron Fist, regardless of the outcome.
5.How is assuming that Shang Chi knows nothing but Chinese martial arts turning a blind eye to things when nothing else has been stated or shown in comics and in the Official handbook there is nothing that says he knows anything other than Chinese Martial arts.You can call me ignorant or make all the speculation you want...I'm not going with it when you have no proof.
Refer to my answer to part 2 of this quote-war.
6.Spider-Man is a terrible fighter and the Thing is nowhere near Shang's level and people like Daredevil,Wolverine and Black Panther have fought the entire F4 and almost succeeded.Hiroim could have killed Shang Chi.He obviously wasn't going full on and Shang didn't so anything but chi amp and block and hold a punch.Midnight is the only impressive win you mentioned.This is going back years ago so obviously he wasn't as skilled as he could have been but I will give him credit for the win.However...there are several characters people would claim to be below Shang Chi..just in Marvel that have far more impressive wins.
I can't comment on the F4, so I'll take your word for that. As for Hiroim? He was going full on - he dashed straight at Colleen out of pure rage. Not only did Shang block that punch, but he held his own for a couple of panels. On the other hand, Iron Fist was taken out by Hiroim in a single punch, which shows that both Shang's reflexes and durability are at peak levels (if not beyond). I don't however, question the fact that had the fight been more "serious", then Shang wouldn't have made it out alive.
7.Don't use the "own set of characters excuse with me" Iron Fist's comic has the goes by the same thing.All the characters that Iron Fist fights in those comics actually have showings in combat and accolades to let you know how good they are making his wins impressive.There aren't very many fighters that appear in the Hands of Shang Chi or Shang Chi master of Kung Fu that have any showings or accolades at all.So when Shang Chi beats them..you can't call it a feat because they haven't done anything.Batman has fought several super powered characters that would completely destroy everyone you just named.Still Batman looks more impressive.Like I was just saying about Iron Fist,Batman has beaten and stalemated masters with actual high level showings.The very top tier in the DCU.The best Shang has fought is Wolverine and he lost to him..badly.
So what would you consider "showings" and "accolades"? Shang has fought an enhanced assassin with three times the speed possible of a normal human, he easily handled Zaran despite the latter being able to block machine gun fire from multiple simultaneous gunners in the same issue, he's defeated people that smash through brick and metal as easily as he does, he used pressure points to beat a giant sumo wrestler immune to his usual blows, and he's beaten the Cat, who's most impressive feat was defeating Deadpool two times in a row. I could name off many more if I went through his old comics, but I'd like to first hear what YOU consider to be "high level showings".
8.He's never gained the upperhand on Danny.Every time he's fought Iron Fist they either didn't hit each other at all or got the same exact number of hits.I've never seen Shang Chi beat the Cat.Which still wouldn't make him better or even close to Bats.And crossovers aren't canon and even if they were Shang can't and hasn't beaten Cap either so you have no case to make for it. "
My point was simply that Batman can't beat Cap, therefore whether or not Shang could beat him has no bearing in this match. As for his fights with Iron Fist, they do generally end up even - hence why I said I believe they are equals. But here's the thing - people Shang have matched or beaten (in particular Spider-man and Iron Fist) have defeated Wolverine, so I still don't see how his three-panel loss was justified as a proper display of Shang's limit.
If Feral Wolverine had taken out other credible fighters, then why, out of all of the people he's beaten, is Shang suddenly the lowest ranked?
Eh... you've got a point there.
What's the bullshit claim that I'm making here? That Shang Chi knows more than just Chinese martial arts? I've already supported it with the fact that Shang uses weapons from other disciplines outsideof CMA, and if that's not enough, what else is there? It's not as though he's explicitly used a real-world CMA style during combat. Like I said though, Chinese martial arts still consists of close to 100 unique styles, including San Shou and Jeet Kune Do - both of which use a wide variety of "foreign" techniques taken from boxing, judo and muay thai. And frankly, Shang's upbringing has always been referred to as one in "Martial Arts" by his father - he never even once, to my knowledge, used the term "Kung Fu". Of course, I keep telling you that Kung Fu can refer to more than just Chinese martial arts, but I see you have a way of ignoring that fact. Oh, and then of course there's the Official Marvel word on the matter...
Before you accuse me of questioning the writers, maybe you should check your own sources.
Except he did amp his chi - it was in the damn comic. Still not enough evidence? He does it again in Agents of Atlas when he fights the Hulk. Tony Stark may not have known what he was talking about, but I doubt the writers intended to have his speech mislead the reader into thinking Temugin used something to beat him that he really didn't. Honestly, he could have just said "martial arts", but he didn't. The same could be said for the Mandarin.
And I agree. If I had any creative influence on the way Marvel makes their comics, I'd have at least another match between Shang and Iron Fist, regardless of the outcome.
Refer to my answer to part 2 of this quote-war.
I can't comment on the F4, so I'll take your word for that. As for Hiroim? He was going full on - he dashed straight at Colleen out of pure rage. Not only did Shang block that punch, but he held his own for a couple of panels. On the other hand, Iron Fist was taken out by Hiroim in a single punch, which shows that both Shang's reflexes and durability are at peak levels (if not beyond). I don't however, question the fact that had the fight been more "serious", then Shang wouldn't have made it out alive.
So what would you consider "showings" and "accolades"? Shang has fought an enhanced assassin with three times the speed possible of a normal human, he easily handled Zaran despite the latter being able to block machine gun fire from multiple simultaneous gunners in the same issue, he's defeated people that smash through brick and metal as easily as he does, he used pressure points to beat a giant sumo wrestler immune to his usual blows, and he's beaten the Cat, who's most impressive feat was defeating Deadpool two times in a row. I could name off many more if I went through his old comics, but I'd like to first hear what YOU consider to be "high level showings".
My point was simply that Batman can't beat Cap, therefore whether or not Shang could beat him has no bearing in this match. As for his fights with Iron Fist, they do generally end up even - hence why I said I believe they are equals. But here's the thing - people Shang have matched or beaten (in particular Spider-man and Iron Fist) have defeated Wolverine, so I still don't see how his three-panel loss was justified as a proper display of Shang's limit.
"
1.I don't understand the point of the question.Wolverine beat him.There's nothing more to talk about.I only mentioned him beating other credible fighters because you are acting as if it's impossible to have beaten Shang Chi while feral because of the state he was in.
2.You cannot prove Shang Chi knows more than Chinese martial arts.I don't want to hear about weapons.That doesn't prove anything.Pretty much any MA fighter in Marvel,DC,or any company uses weapons outside of their fighting style.Nice try.You can go on and on with the speculation but until you have some actual evidence that Shang Chi knows more than Chinese Martial arts\Kung-Fu.You got nothing.Oh and next time you take a clipping from a handbook be sure to read the whole thing.
Gallery
A.The first scan is Vol.2 of the OHOTMU and it only claims he knows Kung-Fu B.The second one is the entire page from the clipping you posted.Shang Chi is rated a 5.The descriptions says he's a master of all known martial arts but in order to be that..he would be ranked a 7 like Wolverine and Cap also said to be masters of all known martial arts. C.The Last one is the master edition of the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe.Made for corrections.Also claims Shang Chi only knows Kung-Fu and related styles.
Just in case you thought I was lying about the rating system,in the fact Shang would have to be a 7 to be a master of all known martial arts.Here's the key in which the handbook is based on. (This will also prove Shang Chi only knows one style...Kung Fu).
3.I'm not going to keep going on and on about Temugin.The bottom line and the point i'm trying to make is that Shang Chi is the top rung in Kung-Fu so beating other martial arts masters..humans especially with the use of Kung-Fu isn't a big deal.If he happened to actually beat Temugin or Iron Fist,I could give him his due even with them not being the "greatest living practitioners of Kung-Fu" because they are powerful but he's never fought Temugin and has only stalemated Iron Fist on 3 different occasions.
4,Why do you keep mentioning Hiroim as if Shang Chi won? He could have killed that whole team honestly.Shang Chi and nobody else could have stopped him.Blocking the punch is an impressive feat (not considering Hiriom giving his attention to an entire team gave him the chance to amp up) but it's nothing to be mentioned here.He didn't get an impressive win over someone who was ridiculously powerful or on a level of skill above him.He got owned.Iron Fist being taken out by Hiroim doesn't mean sh#t.That's ABC logic.Just because A beat B doesn't mean A can beat C.Shang Chi isn't Hiroim.If he could beat Iron Fist he would have done it by now.Unlike Shang Chi,Iron Fist has beaten high level demons,characters with ridiculous chi amping abilities.characters whose attacks cause massive destruction to the environment around them just from the impact of blocking it.Shang Chi can't do half of what Iron Fist has done.
5.What do I consider showings\accolades.Getting respect from characters of a high caliber but respect because you've beaten them.Beating characters that are considered the best and have showings to back it up.Beating characters that are more powerful than you on skill and putting your abilities to good use.Batman fought King Snake.Named one of the best in the world at the time.Batman completely embarrassed him.King Snake at one point was called "The most dangerous man alive".Batman fought Ra's Al Ghul,one of the best swordsmen in the world if not the best.Batman beat him in a sword fight.Batman fought the Sensei..basically DC's version of the Mandarin.Batman was mortally wounded but still won.See you can't do this for Shang Chi.You can't name a bunch of masters he's skillfully beaten because he's pretty much beaten none.Batman has held his own against DC's very top tier.Shang Chi has not done that in Marvel.
You say Shang Chi handled Zaran? So did Deadpool,Daredevil,Moon Knight,and Hawkeye.Also I might add they were fighting 3 or more other villains at the time.Batman beats better fighters than Zaran on the regular.In fact...he has trained characters to be better than Zaran. Blocking Machine gun fire from multiple shooters..so has Batman. Defeated people who can smash through bricks and metal as easily as he does...Who hasn't? Used a pressure point to take down a sumo wrestler? Batman used it to temporarily block a person's short term memory. Beat the Cat? Batman stalemated Bronze Tiger.Whom is not only named one of the best in DC,has the feats to back it.The Cat hasn't done anything.Defeating Deadpool isn't a high level feat.Deadpool barely has any training.
6.Batman not being able to beat Cap is irrelevant.Shang Chi isn't above Cap nor has he beaten him.Unlike Shang Chi Captain America has showings comparable to that of Batman.This is the bottom line.Batman is the more skilled and the smarter fighter.All of his physical ability feats are attributed to his actual physical ability and not some bullsh#t chi amps.He is on Cap's level of physical ability yet he's not a supersoldier.He achieved peak human levels through training.Batman is a genius in combat.This was noted by other masters.Let me know when Shang Chi does something we can actually compare to Batman's resume.As far I see Shang Chi barely compares to Marvel's mid level street levelers let alone DC's top.
1.I don't understand the point of the question.Wolverine beat him.There's nothing more to talk about.I only mentioned him beating other credible fighters because you are acting as if it's impossible to have beaten Shang Chi while feral because of the state he was in.
I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying it doesn't add up to being a logical outcome. Feral Wolverine has every right to be able to defeat Shang, but not in three panels in an attack that honestly wasn't that impressive compared to what we've seen Shang defend against.
2.You cannot prove Shang Chi knows more than Chinese martial arts.I don't want to hear about weapons.That doesn't prove anything.Pretty much any MA fighter in Marvel,DC,or any company uses weapons outside of their fighting style.Nice try.You can go on and on with the speculation but until you have some actual evidence that Shang Chi knows more than Chinese Martial arts\Kung-Fu.You got nothing.Oh and next time you take a clipping from a handbook be sure to read the whole thing.
Gallery
A.The first scan is Vol.2 of the OHOTMU and it only claims he knows Kung-Fu B.The second one is the entire page from the clipping you posted.Shang Chi is rated a 5.The descriptions says he's a master of all known martial arts but in order to be that..he would be ranked a 7 like Wolverine and Cap also said to be masters of all known martial arts. C.The Last one is the master edition of the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe.Made for corrections.Also claims Shang Chi only knows Kung-Fu and related styles.
Ok, so on one hand you accept that he's the "Greatest living practitioner of Kung-Fu and an expert in related martial arts", on the other hand you completely discredit the fact that he knows anything other than Kung-Fu. Please explain why, because that just isn't clicking. And again, Kung Fu is NOT A STYLE. How hard is it to accept that? Kung Fu, in your terms, refers to all Chinese Martial Arts which like I keep bringing up, is close to 100 unique martial arts disciplines. As for his rating of 5 in fighting skills, Black Panther, Blade, and Daredevil are all 5's. The only characters (from Marvel Knights) that have fighting skills of 6 are Iron Fist, Nick Fury, and the Punisher. Shang has matched Fist and completely schooled Fury, and if you ask me both Black Panther and Daredevil are masters of more than one style. The power grids can be argued against with clear examples, whereas you claiming the fact that Shang knows nothing aside from a single style Kung Fu is not supported by any.
4,Why do you keep mentioning Hiroim as if Shang Chi won? He could have killed that whole team honestly.Shang Chi and nobody else could have stopped him.Blocking the punch is an impressive feat (not considering Hiriom giving his attention to an entire team gave him the chance to amp up) but it's nothing to be mentioned here.He didn't get an impressive win over someone who was ridiculously powerful or on a level of skill above him.He got owned.Iron Fist being taken out by Hiroim doesn't mean sh#t.That's ABC logic.Just because A beat B doesn't mean A can beat C.Shang Chi isn't Hiroim.If he could beat Iron Fist he would have done it by now.Unlike Shang Chi,Iron Fist has beaten high level demons,characters with ridiculous chi amping abilities.characters whose attacks cause massive destruction to the environment around them just from the impact of blocking it.Shang Chi can't do half of what Iron Fist has done.
I never once in there claimed Shang could beat Iron Fist - quite the contrary if you've read my post. And again, I never denied the fact that Hiroim could have wiped out the whole team - but why discredit it completely? His loss to Hiroim was inevitable, but he held up better against him than he did Wolverine, which is why I keep saying the latter was out of place. And for the record, he did not "amp his chi" to block that attack. All he did was distribute the damage done by the blow across his body - hence why he was bruised up all over.And yes, Iron Fist has faced people with attacks that cause "massive destruction to the environment", but Shang has done the same against giant robots, a Doombot on two occasions, and a dragon also on two occasions.
5.What do I consider showings\accolades.Getting respect from characters of a high caliber but respect because you've beaten them.Beating characters that are considered the best and have showings to back it up.Beating characters that are more powerful than you on skill and putting your abilities to good use.Batman fought King Snake.Named one of the best in the world at the time.Batman completely embarrassed him.King Snake at one point was called "The most dangerous man alive".Batman fought Ra's Al Ghul,one of the best swordsmen in the world if not the best.Batman beat him in a sword fight.Batman fought the Sensei..basically DC's version of the Mandarin.Batman was mortally wounded but still won.See you can't do this for Shang Chi.You can't name a bunch of masters he's skillfully beaten because he's pretty much beaten none.Batman has held his own against DC's very top tier.Shang Chi has not done that in Marvel.
Like you keep saying, what someone calls a character means nothing - what are some of King Snake's feats that put him above the people Shang has dispatched? And Batman's fight against Ra's, while impressive, is not that far beyond Shang's fight with Moving Shadow, a character explicitly said to be everything Shang is and more, but younger. Admittedly, Shang hasn't fought anyone on the level of the Sensei (if he really is like the Mandarin).
You say Shang Chi handled Zaran? So did Deadpool,Daredevil,Moon Knight,and Hawkeye.
Funny you should bring that up, since a few issues later Moon Knight fights Zaran and after a short scuffle, gets launched away with three knives in his torso and one in his arm. Afterwards, both Shang and Daredevil laid down a beating on Zaran.
Beat the Cat? Batman stalemated Bronze Tiger.Whom is not only named one of the best in DC,has the feats to back it.The Cat hasn't done anything.Defeating Deadpool isn't a high level feat.Deadpool barely has any training.
So why does Batman stalemating Bronze Tiger mean more than Shang-Chi stalemating Iron Fist? And Deadpool barely has any training? I do believe it was explicitly said he was a master of multiple forms of combat, both armed and unarmed. But regardless, he also has his physical enhancements, and the way Cat completely dominated him to the point where Deadpool resorted to taking a hostage says at least something.
6.Batman not being able to beat Cap is irrelevant.Shang Chi isn't above Cap nor has he beaten him.Unlike Shang Chi Captain America has showings comparable to that of Batman.This is the bottom line.Batman is the more skilled and the smarter fighter.All of his physical ability feats are attributed to his actual physical ability and not some bullsh#t chi amps.He is on Cap's level of physical ability yet he's not a supersoldier.He achieved peak human levels through training.Batman is a genius in combat.This was noted by other masters.Let me know when Shang Chi does something we can actually compare to Batman's resume.As far I see Shang Chi barely compares to Marvel's mid level street levelers let alone DC's top. "
You keep bringing up "bullshit chi amps" when most of Shang's abilities - be it dodging bullets or breaking hard objects - is just as physical in nature as Batman's, and required just as much training. Shang has also been referred by other martial artists as one of the greatest hand-to-hand combatants alive, although you're right he has yet to get a notable win. The thing is, Shang has made roughly 200 appearances since his first conception - the majority of which were in his own series back in the day. Batman has close to 2000 appearances, hence why he can build up his resume here.
1.I don't understand the point of the question.Wolverine beat him.There's nothing more to talk about.I only mentioned him beating other credible fighters because you are acting as if it's impossible to have beaten Shang Chi while feral because of the state he was in.
I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying it doesn't add up to being a logical outcome. Feral Wolverine has every right to be able to defeat Shang, but not in three panels in an attack that honestly wasn't that impressive compared to what we've seen Shang defend against.
2.You cannot prove Shang Chi knows more than Chinese martial arts.I don't want to hear about weapons.That doesn't prove anything.Pretty much any MA fighter in Marvel,DC,or any company uses weapons outside of their fighting style.Nice try.You can go on and on with the speculation but until you have some actual evidence that Shang Chi knows more than Chinese Martial arts\Kung-Fu.You got nothing.Oh and next time you take a clipping from a handbook be sure to read the whole thing.
Gallery
A.The first scan is Vol.2 of the OHOTMU and it only claims he knows Kung-Fu B.The second one is the entire page from the clipping you posted.Shang Chi is rated a 5.The descriptions says he's a master of all known martial arts but in order to be that..he would be ranked a 7 like Wolverine and Cap also said to be masters of all known martial arts. C.The Last one is the master edition of the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe.Made for corrections.Also claims Shang Chi only knows Kung-Fu and related styles.
Ok, so on one hand you accept that he's a "Greatest living practitioner of Kung-Fu and an expert in related martial arts", on the other hand you completely discredit the fact that he knows anything other than Kung-Fu. Please explain why, because that just isn't clicking. And again, Kung Fu is NOT A STYLE. How hard is it to accept that? Kung Fu, in your terms, refers to all Chinese Martial Arts which like I keep bringing up, is close to 100 unique martial arts disciplines. As for his rating of 5 in fighting skills, Black Panther, Blade, and Daredevil are all 5's. The only characters (from Marvel Knights) that have fighting skills of 6 are Iron Fist, Nick Fury, and the Punisher. Shang has matched Fist and completely schooled Fury, and if you ask me both Black Panther and Daredevil are masters of more than one style. The power grids can be argued against with clear examples, whereas you refuting the fact that Shang knows nothing aside from a single style Kung Fu is not supported by any.
4,Why do you keep mentioning Hiroim as if Shang Chi won? He could have killed that whole team honestly.Shang Chi and nobody else could have stopped him.Blocking the punch is an impressive feat (not considering Hiriom giving his attention to an entire team gave him the chance to amp up) but it's nothing to be mentioned here.He didn't get an impressive win over someone who was ridiculously powerful or on a level of skill above him.He got owned.Iron Fist being taken out by Hiroim doesn't mean sh#t.That's ABC logic.Just because A beat B doesn't mean A can beat C.Shang Chi isn't Hiroim.If he could beat Iron Fist he would have done it by now.Unlike Shang Chi,Iron Fist has beaten high level demons,characters with ridiculous chi amping abilities.characters whose attacks cause massive destruction to the environment around them just from the impact of blocking it.Shang Chi can't do half of what Iron Fist has done.
I never once in there claimed Shang could beat Iron Fist - quite the contrary if you've read my post. And again, I never denied the fact that Hiroim could have wiped out the whole team - but why discredit it completely? His loss to Hiroim was inevitable, but he held up better against him than he did Wolverine, which is why I keep saying the latter was out of place. And for the record, he did not "amp his chi" to block that attack. All he did was distribute the damage done by the blow across his body - hence why he was bruised up all over.And yes, Iron Fist has faced people with attacks that cause "massive destruction to the environment", but Shang has done the same against giant robots, a Doombot on two occasions, and a dragon also on two occasions.
5.What do I consider showings\accolades.Getting respect from characters of a high caliber but respect because you've beaten them.Beating characters that are considered the best and have showings to back it up.Beating characters that are more powerful than you on skill and putting your abilities to good use.Batman fought King Snake.Named one of the best in the world at the time.Batman completely embarrassed him.King Snake at one point was called "The most dangerous man alive".Batman fought Ra's Al Ghul,one of the best swordsmen in the world if not the best.Batman beat him in a sword fight.Batman fought the Sensei..basically DC's version of the Mandarin.Batman was mortally wounded but still won.See you can't do this for Shang Chi.You can't name a bunch of masters he's skillfully beaten because he's pretty much beaten none.Batman has held his own against DC's very top tier.Shang Chi has not done that in Marvel.
Like you keep saying, what someone calls a character means nothing - what are some of King Snake's feats that put him above the people Shang has dispatched? And Batman's fight against Ra's, while impressive, is not that far beyond Shang's fight with Moving Shadow, a character explicitly said to be everything Shang is and more, but younger. Admittedly, Shang hasn't fought anyone on the level of the Sensei (if he really is like the Mandarin).
You say Shang Chi handled Zaran? So did Deadpool,Daredevil,Moon Knight,and Hawkeye.
Funny you should bring that up, since a few issues later Moon Knight fights Zaran and after a short scuffle, gets launched away with three knives in his torso and one in his arm. Afterwards, both Shang and Daredevil laid down a beating on Zaran.
Beat the Cat? Batman stalemated Bronze Tiger.Whom is not only named one of the best in DC,has the feats to back it.The Cat hasn't done anything.Defeating Deadpool isn't a high level feat.Deadpool barely has any training.
So why does Batman stalemating Bronze Tiger mean more than Shang-Chi stalemating Iron Fist? And Deadpool barely has any training? I do believe it was explicitly said he was a master of multiple forms of combat, both armed and unarmed. But regardless, he also has his physical enhancements, and the way Cat completely dominated him to the point where Deadpool resorted to taking a hostage says at least something.
6.Batman not being able to beat Cap is irrelevant.Shang Chi isn't above Cap nor has he beaten him.Unlike Shang Chi Captain America has showings comparable to that of Batman.This is the bottom line.Batman is the more skilled and the smarter fighter.All of his physical ability feats are attributed to his actual physical ability and not some bullsh#t chi amps.He is on Cap's level of physical ability yet he's not a supersoldier.He achieved peak human levels through training.Batman is a genius in combat.This was noted by other masters.Let me know when Shang Chi does something we can actually compare to Batman's resume.As far I see Shang Chi barely compares to Marvel's mid level street levelers let alone DC's top. "
You keep bring up "bullshit chi amps" when most of Shang's abilities - be it dodging bullets or breaking hard objects - is just as physical in nature as Batman's, and required just as much training. Shang has also been referred by other martial artists as one of the greatest hand-to-hand combatants alive, although you're right he has yet to get a notable win. The thing is, Shang has made roughly 200 appearances since his first conception - the majority of which were in his own series back in the day. Batman has close to 2000 appearances, hence why he can build up his resume here.
"
1.Shang Chi hasn't beaten anyone on Wolverine's level.Stop trying to take the feat away from Wolverine.He got embarrassed because he's an inferior combatant.He has done nothing to suggest the outcome should have been different as far as skill.Defending against unskilled marksman and class 100's doesn't mean you won't get owned by Wolverine.
2.The stats used in that Marvel Knights handbook were possibly based off that from other handbooks.Daredevil I know for a fact was a master of only one style for most of his career.The ratings in that book aren't current but unlike Shang Chi,people like Black Panther and Daredevil were said to be masters of several styles passed the point of this book being published.For the second time....beating Nick Fury doesn't mean anything at all.When you show me some actual evidence of the styles Shang Chi knows then we can talk about it.I can show that for Black Panther,Daredevil,and Batman..actual proof that they know several styles and what the styles are.Since you can't do that for Shang Chi..I don't see why you are pursuing it. Destorying Doombots are nothing.Mindless drones.Batman defeated robots programmed with martial arts skill and swordsmanship.
3.You don't have to claim Shang Chi can or did beat Iron Fist.The fact of the matter is he didn't.If he had then you would have some actual evidence to what level of fighting skill he was on.The point I have been making to you this whole time is Batman has better showings of skill than Shang Chi does.
4.All I'm getting out of you for Shang Chi's skills is him surviving against certain people and then you comparing it to what that character is done.Where is the actual feats? And for the record stalemating Bronze Tiger does mean more than stalemating Iron Fist..yes,it does.Because Iron Fist has also been stalemated by people who aren't as good as Shang is.The feat then means nothing for Shang.Also for the record Deadpool is NOT a master of several styles and if he is..it's a recent development because he wasn't before.And when I say before I don't mean in the 90's I mean after that.
5.I don't want any excuses about appearences.I can name people with fewer showings than Shang Chi with better fighting skill feats.
Log in to comment