#1 Posted by King-Stranglehold da first (3224 posts) - - Show Bio

The rules of the debate are simple. Batman and The Punisher are locked in a room together. There is no way out. Batman does not have his utility belt or any gadgets, and The Punisher has no weapons of any kind. Neither is allowed to harm the other. Each must attempt to convince the other that their stance on guns and killing is wrong. Either Punisher walks out of the room vowing to never use guns or kill again, or Batman walks out to get a gun and kill every criminal in Gotham. Until then, they stay. Neither will be allowed to leave the room until one has 100% totally, completely, and irrevocably convinced the other that their stance is wrong and they should adopt the other stance instead. No tricks, no faking concession to be able to get out. So, which one convinces the other?

#2 Posted by HellionVulcan (3779 posts) - - Show Bio

Neither would change their mind on their stance on killing as Frank is pretty much insanely bent on killing criminals its what he lives for as batman should change his mind & realize that all those innocent life he failed to saved will just keep climbing higher & higher .

#3 Posted by eatmore_payless (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

Bats, because he got a Poisonous tounge, he can convince or rape the mind of some with his his magical words of wisdom

#4 Posted by utotheg38 (18883 posts) - - Show Bio

lol no.

#5 Posted by King-Stranglehold da first (3224 posts) - - Show Bio

@utotheg38 said:

lol no.

Why?

#6 Posted by utotheg38 (18883 posts) - - Show Bio

@King-Stranglehold da first said:

@utotheg38 said:

lol no.

Why?

When you were making this thread, You had to have known this was impossible, Right?

#7 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9728 posts) - - Show Bio

Neither are right 
Frank is to gung-ho. He'll probably kill you for selling weed 
Batman is too.....closed-minded in his sense of absolute justice and right vs wrong. Seriously, why hasnt he killed the Joker? 
 
And neither would be able to convince each other either

#8 Posted by King-Stranglehold da first (3224 posts) - - Show Bio

@utotheg38 said:

@King-Stranglehold da first said:

@utotheg38 said:

lol no.

Why?

When you were making this thread, You had to have known this was impossible, Right?

heh

#9 Posted by Kurupted13 (235 posts) - - Show Bio

Hellion Vulcan is right about Frank, that he is insanely bent on killing criminals and he would never change. Batman has said that once he goes down that dark alley and kills, he can never go back. So if bats kills one he won't stop, he is most likely to change his stance for Frank's

#10 Posted by Valkaad (2589 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Batman is smarter and a better speaker so on the surface it would seem Batman would win the debate. That being said, I think Batman is a man on the edge. Punisher could probably point out how many innocent lives have been lost as a result of The Joker alone. Add in all of Batmans other psycho rogues gallery and you are looking at thousands of innocent deaths that could have been prevented by taking the criminals life. In the end I think batman would see Franks side easier than Frank would see his.

#11 Posted by eatmore_payless (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000 said:

Neither are right Frank is to gung-ho. He'll probably kill you for selling weed Batman is too.....closed-minded in his sense of absolute justice and right vs wrong. Seriously, why hasnt he killed the Joker? And neither would be able to convince each other either

because he believed that the Joker is the best playmate a man could have. And it is the same way for the Joker

#12 Posted by utotheg38 (18883 posts) - - Show Bio

I always wondered why not give the joker brain damage?

Technically he's still alive, But a vegetable. Everyone wins. :D

#13 Posted by Chibio (920 posts) - - Show Bio

Punisher is right about the killing, but he would not be able to reason with Batman who saved even the Joker more then twice. I especially remember the comic where Nightwing killed the Joker and Batman revived him.

#14 Posted by Erik (32797 posts) - - Show Bio

Not a battle.  
 
But Punisher. 

#15 Posted by VanTesla (518 posts) - - Show Bio

@HellionVulcan said:

Neither would change their mind on their stance on killing as Frank is pretty much insanely bent on killing criminals its what he lives for as batman should change his mind & realize that all those innocent life he failed to saved will just keep climbing higher & higher .

I agree. They are both extremes on the stance of killing and thus are both wrong in my opinion.

#16 Posted by Erik (32797 posts) - - Show Bio

Punisher in Gotham would equal no more Joker or any other bad guy stupid enough to make a name for himself. It would not stop crime but it would curb the big stuff. 

#17 Posted by VanTesla (518 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kurupted13 said:

Hellion Vulcan is right about Frank, that he is insanely bent on killing criminals and he would never change. Batman has said that once he goes down that dark alley and kills, he can never go back. So if bats kills one he won't stop, he is most likely to change his stance for Frank's

The problem with Bats belief on that is he has killed before. It may be accidental, but he has killed villains and civilians unintentionally through his actions.

#18 Posted by Erik (32797 posts) - - Show Bio
@VanTesla:  
Where?
#19 Posted by eatmore_payless (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

I still go for Batman to win this debate, I mean seriously, Batman is smarter he would say a scenario which involves Franks family, Batman will say " what if one of your Family became a criminal, who murders, who steals, who do all the dirtiest thing a man could ever think of, would you go rather kill him/her just to satisfy your kind of justice, it's your choice Frank.." then Frank would be too busy realizing then end up getting Batman's point that killing is not the best way to do justice. ( man i sounded like Bruce Wayne )

#20 Posted by Erik (32797 posts) - - Show Bio
@eatmore_payless said:

I still go for Batman to win this debate, I mean seriously, Batman is smarter he would say a scenario which involves Franks family, Batman will say " what if one of your Family became a criminal, who murders, who steals, who do all the dirtiest thing a man could ever think of, would you go rather kill him/her just to satisfy your kind of justice, it's your choice Frank.." then Frank would be too busy realizing then end up getting Batman's point that killing is not the best way to do justice. ( man i sounded like Bruce Wayne )

No you did not.  
 
Being smarter does not mean you always make the right decisions. 
#21 Posted by VanTesla (518 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik: Example: chasing villains in the Batmobile and running over cars and destruction of building. You can't believe that every single building and car he has totalled had no people in it... Most deaths though are caused in the different Bat stories though and even though it may not be canon, there truly is no canon to speak of in comics... Also his inaction to kill villains like the Joker make him partially responsable for any deaths the Joker cause, that goes more so to the justice system, but the reason Batman is even around is because the system does not work.

#22 Posted by eatmore_payless (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

@eatmore_payless said:

I still go for Batman to win this debate, I mean seriously, Batman is smarter he would say a scenario which involves Franks family, Batman will say " what if one of your Family became a criminal, who murders, who steals, who do all the dirtiest thing a man could ever think of, would you go rather kill him/her just to satisfy your kind of justice, it's your choice Frank.." then Frank would be too busy realizing then end up getting Batman's point that killing is not the best way to do justice. ( man i sounded like Bruce Wayne )

No you did not. Being smarter does not mean you always make the right decisions.

I may not sounded like him, but i think its the same sentence Bruce would say, and Batman is smart in every aspects, plus Frank is not that cold hearted to not feel any pity on killing his Family, and if he does kill them he is still a human the memories will haunt him forever

#23 Posted by Erik (32797 posts) - - Show Bio
@VanTesla said:

@Erik: Example: chasing villains in the Batmobile and running over cars and destruction of building. You can't believe that every single building and car he has totalled had no people in it... Most deaths though are caused in the different Bat stories though and even though it may not be canon, there truly is no canon to speak of in comics... Also his inaction to kill villains like the Joker make him partially responsable for any deaths the Joker cause, that goes more so to the justice system, but the reason Batman is even around is because the system does not work.

Sure you can. Because things like that would be made very public. "News headline of the night, Batman runs over little old lady and 12 puppies. More at 11." 
 
Nothing like that has ever been stated. You are not using the facts, you are making up maybes and what ifs.  
 
Batman is not any more responsible for not killing the Joker than anyone else in his entire world. That is to say, not at all. 
#24 Posted by Erik (32797 posts) - - Show Bio
@eatmore_payless said: 

I may not sounded like him, but i think its the same sentence Bruce would say, and Batman is smart in every aspects, plus Frank is not that cold hearted to not feel any pity on killing his Family, and if he does kill them he is still a human the memories will haunt him forever

I do not think it is anything like what he would say. Batman is not smart in every aspect. He is no Reed Richards. 
#25 Posted by eatmore_payless (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

@eatmore_payless said:

I may not sounded like him, but i think its the same sentence Bruce would say, and Batman is smart in every aspects, plus Frank is not that cold hearted to not feel any pity on killing his Family, and if he does kill them he is still a human the memories will haunt him forever

I do not think it is anything like what he would say. Batman is not smart in every aspect. He is no Reed Richards.

he may not be, but he is smart in the aspects of life, justice, he was able to smart talk Lex, smart talk Darkseid, and some other entities who are smart in every aspects, so I guess debating with a man who believe in a twisted justice would like be debating on a one sided court and winning it by making them realize that their belief is just as crappy as a freakin super mario game

#26 Posted by Erik (32797 posts) - - Show Bio
@eatmore_payless:  
I do not even know how to respond to that. 
#27 Posted by eatmore_payless (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

@eatmore_payless: I do not even know how to respond to that.

hey how come? is my statement to idiotic? haha xD

#28 Posted by Void_Paladin (901 posts) - - Show Bio

Many have attempted to explain to Batman how many lives could have been saved if he relaxed his code. Jason Todd, Ra's, Joker, Huntress, and the list doesn't stop there. Why would Castle's all criminals deserve to die argument work any better.

However, I must question Batman's ability to reform anyone. Jason Todd and all of Arkham do a bit to discredit Bruce's ability to convince anyone to change their ways.

This is a stalemate. They both die of old age blaming the other for the amount of criminals they could have killed/stopped instead of being trapped here like idiots.

#29 Posted by VanTesla (518 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik: In the movies he has killed, in the JLU he has killed Black Manta (he was possessed by Dead Man though), He killed Darksied, he has killed in alternate versions of himself, his creations of AI have killed humans though he did not want that, having young teenagers like Jason fight with him and dieing is his fault, no sane person would have a kid risk their life and witness such vile.

#30 Posted by Erik (32797 posts) - - Show Bio
@VanTesla said:

@Erik: In the movies he has killed, in the JLU he has killed Black Manta (he was possessed by Dead Man though), He killed Darksied, he has killed in alternate versions of himself, his creations of AI have killed humans though he did not want that, having young teenagers like Jason fight with him and dieing is his fault, no sane person would have a kid risk their life and witness such vile.

Movies are not canon to the comics. He did not kill Darksied. He shot him to weaken him. He did endanger the lives of his Robins but he did not kill them. 
#31 Posted by Jezer (3129 posts) - - Show Bio

Lock me in a room with Batman; I'd convince him his no-kill should be changed.

*nods head*

#32 Posted by eatmore_payless (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

@VanTesla said:

@Erik: In the movies he has killed, in the JLU he has killed Black Manta (he was possessed by Dead Man though), He killed Darksied, he has killed in alternate versions of himself, his creations of AI have killed humans though he did not want that, having young teenagers like Jason fight with him and dieing is his fault, no sane person would have a kid risk their life and witness such vile.

Movies are not canon to the comics. He did not kill Darksied. He shot him to weaken him. He did endanger the lives of his Robins but he did not kill them.

what he mean is that lives of his Robins lies in his fateful hands, if im not mistaken

#33 Posted by VanTesla (518 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik: But like I said before, comics have almost zero canon and he has killed in alternate comics. Also I believe if you put people in danger and they die you are as much to blame for their death.

#34 Posted by Erik (32797 posts) - - Show Bio
@VanTesla said:

@Erik: But like I said before, comics have almost zero canon and he has killed in alternate comics. Also I believe if you put people in danger and they die you are as much to blame for their death.

Alternate reality comics are unimportant. So when you take your sister on a drive on the freeway and you hit a patch of black ice and crash, you think you are responsible for her death? You knowingly endangered her life by letting her get into your car that you knew would be driving at an excess of 50mph after all. 
#35 Posted by VanTesla (518 posts) - - Show Bio

@eatmore_payless said:

@Erik said:

@VanTesla said:

@Erik: In the movies he has killed, in the JLU he has killed Black Manta (he was possessed by Dead Man though), He killed Darksied, he has killed in alternate versions of himself, his creations of AI have killed humans though he did not want that, having young teenagers like Jason fight with him and dieing is his fault, no sane person would have a kid risk their life and witness such vile.

Movies are not canon to the comics. He did not kill Darksied. He shot him to weaken him. He did endanger the lives of his Robins but he did not kill them.

what he mean is that lives of his Robins lies in his fateful hands, if im not mistaken

Exactly. It can be considered as abuse and endangerment. Those are considered in court as murder.

#36 Posted by utotheg38 (18883 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jezer said:

Lock me in a room with Batman; I'd convince him his no-kill should be changed.

*nods head*

Dare I ask how?

#37 Posted by Erik (32797 posts) - - Show Bio
@VanTesla said:

@eatmore_payless said:

@Erik said:

@VanTesla said:

@Erik: In the movies he has killed, in the JLU he has killed Black Manta (he was possessed by Dead Man though), He killed Darksied, he has killed in alternate versions of himself, his creations of AI have killed humans though he did not want that, having young teenagers like Jason fight with him and dieing is his fault, no sane person would have a kid risk their life and witness such vile.

Movies are not canon to the comics. He did not kill Darksied. He shot him to weaken him. He did endanger the lives of his Robins but he did not kill them.

what he mean is that lives of his Robins lies in his fateful hands, if im not mistaken

Exactly. It can be considered as abuse and endangerment. Those are considered in court as murder.

No they are not. If you endanger someone's life by taking them on some dangerous endeavor, you might get charged with manslaughter at worse if they die. 
#38 Posted by VanTesla (518 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

@VanTesla said:

@Erik: But like I said before, comics have almost zero canon and he has killed in alternate comics. Also I believe if you put people in danger and they die you are as much to blame for their death.

Alternate reality comics are unimportant. So when you take your sister on a drive on the freeway and you hit a patch of black ice and crash, you think you are responsible for her death? You knowingly endangered her life by letting her get into your car that you knew would be driving at an excess of 50mph after all.

That is not the same and is a bad comparison. You can't blame the driver for outside elements that are out of his control, but you can blame him for recluse driving by breaking the speed limit and chasing after violent people that is knowingly putting other people in danger.

#39 Posted by Jezer (3129 posts) - - Show Bio

@VanTesla said:

@Erik: But like I said before, comics have almost zero canon and he has killed in alternate comics. Also I believe if you put people in danger and they die you are as much to blame for their death.

This is true. That is Negligence. Batman is Dick Grayson's legal guardian, and as such has a duty of care to him.

Depending on the state; Batman should be put in jail. Truestory.

#40 Posted by Erik (32797 posts) - - Show Bio
@VanTesla said:

@Erik said:

@VanTesla said:

@Erik: But like I said before, comics have almost zero canon and he has killed in alternate comics. Also I believe if you put people in danger and they die you are as much to blame for their death.

Alternate reality comics are unimportant. So when you take your sister on a drive on the freeway and you hit a patch of black ice and crash, you think you are responsible for her death? You knowingly endangered her life by letting her get into your car that you knew would be driving at an excess of 50mph after all.

That is not the same and is a bad comparison. You can't blame the driver for outside elements that are out of his control, but you can blame him for recluse driving by breaking the speed limit and chasing after violent people that is knowingly putting other people in danger.

It is not a bad comparison. It is just as irrelevant as your comparison, which is the point. 
#41 Posted by Erik (32797 posts) - - Show Bio
@Jezer said:

@VanTesla said:

@Erik: But like I said before, comics have almost zero canon and he has killed in alternate comics. Also I believe if you put people in danger and they die you are as much to blame for their death.

This is true. That is Negligence. Batman is Dick Grayson's legal guardian, and as such has a duty of care to him.

Depending on the state; Batman should be put in jail. Truestory.

Batman would be put in jail in any state even if a Robin did not exist. 
#42 Posted by eatmore_payless (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

@VanTesla said:

@eatmore_payless said:

@Erik said:

@VanTesla said:

@Erik: In the movies he has killed, in the JLU he has killed Black Manta (he was possessed by Dead Man though), He killed Darksied, he has killed in alternate versions of himself, his creations of AI have killed humans though he did not want that, having young teenagers like Jason fight with him and dieing is his fault, no sane person would have a kid risk their life and witness such vile.

Movies are not canon to the comics. He did not kill Darksied. He shot him to weaken him. He did endanger the lives of his Robins but he did not kill them.

what he mean is that lives of his Robins lies in his fateful hands, if im not mistaken

Exactly. It can be considered as abuse and endangerment. Those are considered in court as murder.

No they are not. If you endanger someone's life by taking them on some dangerous endeavor, you might get charged with manslaughter at worse if they die.

Dude the Robins joined the Batman on his crime fighting knowing that they might get killed, So as a responsible adult Batman took all the responsibilities including the safety of their lives

#43 Posted by Erik (32797 posts) - - Show Bio
@eatmore_payless said: 

Dude the Robins joined the Batman on his crime fighting knowing that they might get killed, So as a responsible adult Batman took all the responsibilities including the safety of their lives

That does NOT make him their killer should they die through a villain attack or falling off a roof. 
#44 Posted by VanTesla (518 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

@VanTesla said:

@eatmore_payless said:

@Erik said:

@VanTesla said:

@Erik: In the movies he has killed, in the JLU he has killed Black Manta (he was possessed by Dead Man though), He killed Darksied, he has killed in alternate versions of himself, his creations of AI have killed humans though he did not want that, having young teenagers like Jason fight with him and dieing is his fault, no sane person would have a kid risk their life and witness such vile.

Movies are not canon to the comics. He did not kill Darksied. He shot him to weaken him. He did endanger the lives of his Robins but he did not kill them.

what he mean is that lives of his Robins lies in his fateful hands, if im not mistaken

Exactly. It can be considered as abuse and endangerment. Those are considered in court as murder.

No they are not. If you endanger someone's life by taking them on some dangerous endeavor, you might get charged with manslaughter at worse if they die.

If you neglect your child and they die under your care it can be considered murder, not feeding them, taking them to a know place that people get killed in, sending them into places that will likely get them killed, and etc.

#45 Posted by Erik (32797 posts) - - Show Bio
@VanTesla said: 

If you neglect your child and they die under your care it can be considered murder, not feeding them, taking them to a know place that people get killed in, sending them into places that will likely get them killed, and etc.

This is not neglect. I do not think you know what neglect is. A parent living in detroit cannot be charged with neglect and murder because they allow their kid to walk to school in a city where it is very likely that they will be gunned down in a drive by. 
#46 Posted by progenitor (7541 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

Punisher in Gotham would equal no more Joker or any other bad guy stupid enough to make a name for himself. It would not stop crime but it would curb the big stuff.

That is, unless Killer Croc has a rock.

#47 Posted by eatmore_payless (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

@eatmore_payless said:

Dude the Robins joined the Batman on his crime fighting knowing that they might get killed, So as a responsible adult Batman took all the responsibilities including the safety of their lives

That does NOT make him their killer should they die through a villain attack or falling off a roof.

I think you are not getting my point. what Im trying to say is whenever the kids die from a villain attack or something stupid, Bat's is all to blame, know why? Because he has the full responsibility for the kids and he would go to jail weather he like it or not

#48 Posted by VanTesla (518 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

@VanTesla said:

@Erik said:

@VanTesla said:

@Erik: But like I said before, comics have almost zero canon and he has killed in alternate comics. Also I believe if you put people in danger and they die you are as much to blame for their death.

Alternate reality comics are unimportant. So when you take your sister on a drive on the freeway and you hit a patch of black ice and crash, you think you are responsible for her death? You knowingly endangered her life by letting her get into your car that you knew would be driving at an excess of 50mph after all.

That is not the same and is a bad comparison. You can't blame the driver for outside elements that are out of his control, but you can blame him for recluse driving by breaking the speed limit and chasing after violent people that is knowingly putting other people in danger.

It is not a bad comparison. It is just as irrelevant as your comparison, which is the point.

It is not irrelevant and it is a bad comparison. One has a human element as the main factor for the cause of death and the other has nature as the main cause of death.

You can't compare a humans actions to natural occurrences.

#49 Posted by VanTesla (518 posts) - - Show Bio

@eatmore_payless said:

@Erik said:

@VanTesla said:

@eatmore_payless said:

@Erik said:

@VanTesla said:

@Erik: In the movies he has killed, in the JLU he has killed Black Manta (he was possessed by Dead Man though), He killed Darksied, he has killed in alternate versions of himself, his creations of AI have killed humans though he did not want that, having young teenagers like Jason fight with him and dieing is his fault, no sane person would have a kid risk their life and witness such vile.

Movies are not canon to the comics. He did not kill Darksied. He shot him to weaken him. He did endanger the lives of his Robins but he did not kill them.

what he mean is that lives of his Robins lies in his fateful hands, if im not mistaken

Exactly. It can be considered as abuse and endangerment. Those are considered in court as murder.

No they are not. If you endanger someone's life by taking them on some dangerous endeavor, you might get charged with manslaughter at worse if they die.

Dude the Robins joined the Batman on his crime fighting knowing that they might get killed, So as a responsible adult Batman took all the responsibilities including the safety of their lives

Batman could have said no and keep them from doing so. He is a control freak and has done things to people before, little success though.

#50 Posted by eatmore_payless (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@VanTesla said:

Batman could have said no and keep them from doing so. He is a control freak and has done things to people before, little success though.

true