Batman vs Ozymandias

@mrtrickster said:

batman with or without prep, but ozy could give him a good work out

@Jezer: Sorry. I misread your question. No, he wouldn't be able to take those bullets without any armor obviously. But neither would Ozymandias. However, he is far more durable than Ozymandias because of his batsuit and that is what matters in this scenario. Also, of course they are his high end feats, but why should that mean he is incapable of them? Has he ever been shown not to be able to kick through trees, etc.?

@HughJass said:

@Jezer: Sorry. I misread your question. No, he wouldn't be able to take those bullets without any armor obviously. But neither would Ozymandias. However, he is far more durable than Ozymandias because of his batsuit and that is what matters in this scenario. Also, of course they are his high end feats, but why should that mean he is incapable of them? Has he ever been shown not to be able to kick through trees, etc.?

True true, I was comparing their physical durability. Though, of course, we don't actually know how durable Ozy's outfit is.

Either way, I was comparing the fact that Ozy was able to block a bullet with his barehand to the fact that Batman wears armor specifically to block bullets because he wouldn't be able to block it with his barehand. I say block instead of catch because the bullet obviously struck his hand, and he didn't catch it by his fingertips, as evidenced by the blood all over his hand.

Then, I'd argue that durability goes hand in hand with strength - they correlate. The thing is rock hard and subsequently his potential for strength is greater than that of a human. And then, I'd point out that arguing against Ozy based on what he hasn't shown is a type of logical fallacy. So, I'd instead try to argue that Ozy may be stronger then Batman since his body must be denser/harder than Batmans if he's peak human - and his body by extension of his hand is durable enough that bullets don't pierce straight through it. As well as the idea that his strength hasn't been tested.

Alas, this type of argument wouldn't go over well at this forum. ('-' )

My point about high end feats vs. general level feats is that sometimes comic characters show more strength than they should be able. In that sense, if their strength levels aren't consistent with how they are written in only a few choice situations, I wouldn't conclude that they're always capable of them. In otherwords, high end feats are outliers - general feats show how strong the character is meant to be. If peak human Batman is meant to be able to kick down trees and bazooka proof glass, if he was meant to be stronger than a bazooka, then it's not high end to me.

@Jezer: Well, in the comic he actually catches the bullet against his chest like a football. You can see the blood is coming from under his shirt. So good point about Ozy's outfit. I agree what you're saying about muscle density and strength, but there are still other parts to strength such as the central nervous system. Batman has constantly shown to be able to compete with metas and accumulated quite a large amount of comparable feats so I wouldn't exactly say they are outliers.

@Jezer: If you wish to remove high -end feats from the debate, then how can you call Ozy bullet-proof. His general showings say that punches from normal humans hurt him. Does it reall make sense to you that The Comedian in his prime beat the snot out of him. He blocks and dodges street levelers because their attacks hurt him. Yet, bullets don't pierce his skin?

If you wish to remove Batman's high-end yet consistent showings, you must also take away the only feat that gives Ozy a chance to win this battle.

@HughJass said:

@Jezer: Well, in the comic he actually catches the bullet against his chest like a football. You can see the blood is coming from under his shirt. So good point about Ozy's outfit. I agree what you're saying about muscle density and strength, but there are still other parts to strength such as the central nervous system. Batman has constantly shown to be able to compete with metas and accumulated quite a large amount of comparable feats so I wouldn't exactly say they are outliers.

My mistake, I assumed he blocked the shot with just his hand - and that it was a headshot - like in the movies. Does anyone have the panel right before the one posted in the first page in this thread? My point was that Ozy is supposed to be peak human on the level of Batman. So his strength should be around peak human levels, and then that the bullet catch being the comparable feat between the two shows that he's more durable and probably stronger as a result, keeping in mind the fact that his muscle strength is supposed to be peak level.

Okay, then they are general feats. I wouldn't call them outliers.

@Void_Paladin said:

@Jezer: If you wish to remove high -end feats from the debate, then how can you call Ozy bullet-proof. His general showings say that punches from normal humans hurt him. Does it reall make sense to you that The Comedian in his prime beat the snot out of him. He blocks and dodges street levelers because their attacks hurt him. Yet, bullets don't pierce his skin?

If you wish to remove Batman's high-end yet consistent showings, you must also take away the only feat that gives Ozy a chance to win this battle.

Nope, I didn't know The Comedian in his prime beat the snot out of him. I've gotten all my info on him from this thread, though I have seen the movie. Was the Comedian in his prime physically above him? Because if he's physically capable of blocking a bullet with his hand, and the Comedian is physically above him, then the Comedian's physical output would be greater than a bullets.

So, for clarification, I was under the impression that Ozy really had no real showings - and thus bulletblocking cannot be inconsistent with a physical standard that hasn't been set for him - that doesn't exist. Unlike Batman, who has enough consistent showings that you can compare his feats amongst themselves and the general physical standard that's been set for him.

Does that make anysense?

@Jezer: I understand what you're saying. If a character has only one showing. Then any discussion on said characters abilities/stats must be derived from said showing. This cannot be inconsistent as it is the only time the character displayed any ability/stat for us to discuss.

However, I believe Ozy had at least 4 fights that I can recall. Although it's still not much to go on. I'll see if I can dig up some more info on him later to discuss..

Okay, thanks. A lot of my preconcieved notions about Ozy come from the movie, where we only see him fight a couple of people - and only after they've all disbanded.

I imagine the graphic novel has more fights with Ozy, and simply more info about him general, that I'm not aware of.

Batman.

Bats

Bat stomp

Ozymandius takes this. he's willing to kill, if he can't subdue, and his speed and strenght combinations are really amazing.

I LOVE both characters.

But i dont see batman winning. With or Without prep.

Batman, but Ozzy is a King among men in his world.

Ozymandias would destroy batman With all his tech

Batman. One punch.

ozyyyyyyyyy

@jeanroygrant said:

ozyyyyyyyyy

Bruuuuuuuuuuuucccccccceeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

@Decoy Elite said:

@jeanroygrant said:

ozyyyyyyyyy

Bruuuuuuuuuuuucccccccceeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

i just get annoyed from batman alot

@jeanroygrant said:

@Decoy Elite said:

@jeanroygrant said:

ozyyyyyyyyy

Bruuuuuuuuuuuucccccccceeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

i just get annoyed from batman alot

And that makes Ozymandias win here how?

@Decoy Elite said:

@jeanroygrant said:

@Decoy Elite said:

@jeanroygrant said:

ozyyyyyyyyy

Bruuuuuuuuuuuucccccccceeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

i just get annoyed from batman alot

And that makes Ozymandias win here how?

kinda lol

@jeanroygrant: Kinda is not the answer to a question of how.

The detective wins

ozy can catch a bullet out of thin air. nuff said.

I think the caped curader will win here.

the movie version of ozy kills batman

Batman is a normal person with gadgets (also a good fighter, I know), but there's no way he can beat ozy

Batman takes Ozymandias to the wood shed.

Anyone that thinks that Ozy has a shot is just comparing movie Batman to movie Ozy. "Ozy seems almost superhuman in the movie" some of you have said. In basically every Batman comic he displays feats far beyond what any human could ever achieve.

@Morpheus_ said:

Batman. One punch.

@Alpha said:

are we talking about the movie versions here?

Ozy wins imo ...he's smarter and a Magnificent fighter...I know batman has morefeats but he has been around for decades so don't just give the old feats argument...Ozy appears to be beyond human in strength and intellect, and completely trounces niteowl and Rorschach without breaking a sweat this is my opinion not fact so please no hate mail,,I've read watchmen entirely multiple times and read a lot of batman,,,this would be a great fight but in the end I think Ozy culd win

Batman

With the various feats Ozy has shown in his new books, i have to say he does appear superhuman almost.

@nickthedevil said:

With the various feats Ozy has shown in his new books, i have to say he does appear superhuman almost.

Really? Do you happen to have scans?

@jashro44 said:

@nickthedevil said:

With the various feats Ozy has shown in his new books, i have to say he does appear superhuman almost.

Really? Do you happen to have scans?

Sadly, I do not. But to list some feats, He can effectively toss his crown like Captain America does, ricocheting and using the environment to his fancy. And at point blank range, a drug dealer had his gun to his chest and Ozy dismanteled it in a fraction of a second.

@nickthedevil: Interesting...

@Void_Paladin said:

Batman. He lives in a world where he actually has competition. Ozy's never fought anyone even near his own level.

thank you very much this is what i have been trying to tell all these watchmen fans. if ozy fought anybody on batmans level then i would reconsider. people please stop saying he is smarter because he is not we talking about one of the most clever minds in the dcu not just a guy that is the smartest in his world.

@Void_Paladin: The Comedian was, when he was younger considering that he was defeated pretty badly by him.

Ozzy wins, he is beyond batman in strength and inteligence. I reckon the Comedian (in his prime) could beat Bats as well.

@nickthedevil said:

@jashro44 said:

@nickthedevil said:

With the various feats Ozy has shown in his new books, i have to say he does appear superhuman almost.

Really? Do you happen to have scans?

Sadly, I do not. But to list some feats, He can effectively toss his crown like Captain America does, ricocheting and using the environment to his fancy. And at point blank range, a drug dealer had his gun to his chest and Ozy dismanteled it in a fraction of a second.

@Xanni15: Any more scans of more Ozy stuff? That looks pretty awesome

@DangerousLoki:

@AmazingScrewOnHead: comedian in his prime beats bats i highly doubt that. and no ozy is not beyond bats in intelligence. who has comedian beat that can indicate that he can take bats?

@Xanni15: That's pretty awesome. I need to pick up that series.

@tjizz350: Whether Batman is more intelligent than Ozy remains to be seen. Ozy managed to block and avoid a man who can see the future. He managed to hold the entirety of his plan in check until it was too late to stop him. Etc. Ozy is implied at being somewhere above Sherlock Level of intelligence. Bats is implied as being just below. He's intelligent but most of that lies purely in combat startegies and not overall planning. He's been manipulated, misled, deceived, controlled, and other wise fooled by people of his intellect level such as Joker, Ra's, Riddler, Lex Luthor, and others. Whether you believe Ozy is smarter or not is debatable at the best of times, but I would personally give a battle of wits to Ozy 7 out of 10 times over Bats.

@DangerousLoki: ok ozy is intelligent he is the most intelligent man in his world his best competition is doctor manhattan. he didnt really outsmart manhattan either doctor m just aggreed with his tactics. batman on the other hand is in a world where he is competing against others who have intelligence that rivals his own. we talking about a human that beats superhuman opponents on a regular basis. he even made a plan of his own to stop the justice league in case they went rogue. something nobody has successfully been able to do by the way. guess who they called to stop it thats right batman. ozy has never even been really battle tested he just looks so great because he is so high above his opponents. yes batman looses some battles in his universe because he faces more skilled opponents. matter fact ozy has never even faced no where near the kind of threats batman has faced. ozy blew up a city because he felt like it was no other solution he has balls to do that. batman rerouted darksieds explosives(very high tech i might add) and threatened to blow up the entire planet just to convince darksied to let supergirl go i say it takes bigger balls to do that even darksied had respect for that. rather its battle stradegy or not ozy still has not done anything on this level. has ozy ever faced joker, riddler, lex luthor or anybody of that nature, no he hasnt so to assume he will easily win is just being bias he has never been in a situation like that. on top of that what kind of villians has he faced? how skilled were they? these are the kind of questions i ask with someone like him all i have seen are street thugs. besides batman is a detective so he is more than just a battle strategist anyway my friend. a good example of some one who only uses battle stradegy is captain america batman pretty much always plans ahead. batman is regarded as one of the best h2h combatants in the dc universe. yes there are people that are better but it takes great skill to even be considered on batmans level. ozy is never put in this category why because he is only in his world where there isnt any real competition. so people can posts scans all day but his handful of feats still dont scratch the surface of batmans many feats. catching a bullet does not equal being able to beat batman. he has defeated people faster and stronger than him many times before. its still debatable if ozy even surpasses him in these category because he is still listed as peak human. so at the end of the day batman wins end of story. i am not hating on ozy at all he has done some great things but to really put him on equal footing with bats he will have to be place with th rest of the dc universe. you wouldnt compare superman to someone who has limited battles would you. people will quickly say he hasnt shown enough pretty much like the blue marvel vs superman thread. blue marvel is great has some awesome feats hasnt really shown any limits but its still not enough to really say he can beat superman.

@Xanni15: Those are pretty impressive. Especially the scan of him disassembling the gun...

@tjizz350: That give an unfair biased to anyone whose had the longest run times. It's not about how many feats they have but the quality of feat. If Blue Marvel for instance shows the ability to punch out a sun with a flick of his wrist and with stand a punch from God himself then you could presume he could match Superman because while those feats are fewer they're as impressive as anything then Superman has done. Ozymandias has shown skill in hand to hand, you say it's not as impressive as Batman but that doesn't mean he can easily beat Ozy. Ozy handled to seasoned crime fighters, with ease and without exering much concentrated effort. He's fast enough to dismantle a gun before a man can pull a trigger. He can fire a stilleto point with enough accuracy to shoot it down the barrel fo a gun before someone can fire. These are impressive feats. Extremely so. Showing a speed and skill that while not making him on par with Batman perse, Batman has had difficulties with just about anyone with any amount of martial arts skill.Nonetheless, the question of intellect here, Ozymandias is the smartest man in the world. You say "While that's not the DC world" but again that's not fair. He was smart enough to create a plan to prevent a war between two countries, kidnap a collection of created artists and engineers to generate an alien menace, interefere and blow up a man who could see into the future, an attempt that only failed because Manhattan could reassaemble himself. You say that Batman's more impressive because he's done it more but that's a false statement. Ozymandias has shown considerable intellect and fair fighting talent as well as feats that border on superhuman.

Batman

@DangerousLoki: first off blue marvel has never even done any of that so trying to make it a point isnt really working anyway. i even commented on ozy skill myself and gave him respect i recall saying myself that he has done impressive things did i not. yes doctor manhattan reassembled himself which is actually something he should have been prepared for sice he was smart enough to know how his powers worked. next issues batman has struggle with people who actually have skills so for him to struggle is not a knock against him. not to mention that the people he has strgguled with have actually been great fighters themselves. also they tend to have powers to add to thier skill. i know very well about how he beat two seasoned crime fighters with ease. neither of those guys are near batmans level either. werent they like pass their prime come on. who have they fought that makes them so great? batman would likely do the same to them. i doubt either of them are above nightwing. yes it is fair to compare them based on feats because you are speaking on ozy feats trying to compare him to batman so why cant i speak on batmans feats to counter it. so no its not bias its just being realistic if batman out weighs him in feats so badly why even make a case. the point is simple batman has faced people like ozy before intelligent with great fighting skill ok. on the other hand ozy just has never been in that situation no matter how you try to turn it nothing will change that. once again i repeat even if i give him the nod and say he is faster and stronger than batman how many times have we seen batman face someone with those same odds and still come out on top. what about his tools and weapons the guy has everything from a can opener to an explosive equipped to put down a person with high durability. has ozy ever defeated a superhuman opponent? i think not. has he even faced someone who is as skilled or intelliegent as himself? i think not. you even tried to go as far as try to say batman doesnt really plan things out he mainly uses battle stradegy. when batman biggest asset is how he preps. he has even faced a guy just like himself (owl man) and came out on top. he is even able to get to his opponents by talking to them and finding out what makes them tick causing them to loose focus. i say that batman is more impressive not just because he has done more but because he has also done it at a higher level of difficulty. his opponents simply out class any opponents ozy has faced. its like playing a game on easy and playing it on hard one person does it without a challenge while the other works for it. but the person who beats it on easy doesnt get the same respect as the if they beat it on hard. it doesnt matter if you got all perfects yea its cool and all makes you look good but it wasnt even a challenge because you were on such a higher level than your opponents. now if you beat it on hard yes its tougher and you have to work harder you barely get wins but the fact that you beat it on a higher level places you above them its just that simple. matter fact if the person who plays on easy all of a sudden goes to hard its a big adjustment the moves that easily worked dont work anymore, flaws that you never saw in yourself get exposed. you may catch it you may not either way its a big adjustment and something you have never encountered before, which makes things more difficult to you. while the person who has been doing it on hard is like hmm i have seen this challenge before so im ready for it. now once again ozy is a cool character i have the watchmen movie in my collection. i just cant put him on equal footing with batman. those characters are basically in their own world if they came to batmans universe and saw people flying around, running at ridiculous speeds, and lifting skyscrapers. they would all be in a state of shock.