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#1 Posted by JokerandBats (2 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman is the caped crusader and knightwing was the boy wonder. They should fight to everything they have in the New 52, nothing before that. Who would win in a fight?

#2 Edited by dbatdog (541 posts) - - Show Bio

nobody beating the batman : /

#3 Edited by MasterDetective (832 posts) - - Show Bio

why would you want them to fight each other? violence is not the key

#4 Posted by patrat18 (9754 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman stomps.

#5 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

Most of their feats got to be carried over from pre 52 since a bulk of them weren't even retconned out.

#6 Posted by LordoftheNorth (1365 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce wins this hands down Dick is the slightly better aerolist but just so. and bruce has him beat pretty easily in everyother field

#7 Edited by ReachDestroyer (54 posts) - - Show Bio

Make it fairer, what about Dick as Batman with Damian as Robin vs Bruce as Batman ... with prep. That's the only way I see this fight being interesting, going solo Grayson doesn't have a chance.

#8 Posted by LordoftheNorth (1365 posts) - - Show Bio

@reachdestroyer: What does it matter if its dick as batman he has the same gadgets and abilites he had when he was Nighwing so him putting on the cowl adds nothing

#9 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (11570 posts) - - Show Bio

Battle thread.

Batman wins, that's just how it is. Unfortunate fate for Dick :-\

#10 Edited by PeppeyHare (4310 posts) - - Show Bio

Why does this thread always get made? Dick literally has no chance against Bruce. None

#11 Posted by THEOCITYLEGEND (1208 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman gives Dick quite the beating. This fight has also been done a dozen times before btw.

#12 Posted by JMG (224 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman. And it wont be close.

#13 Edited by ReachDestroyer (54 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthenorth: Obviously him being Batman isn't as important as having Damian with him in determining the outcome of a fight. It does, however, suggest that this is a Dick Grayson with more experience as well as give a reason for Damian to be with him.

I don't want to hijack the thread, just thought this is better than simply an endless stream of 'Batman wins' comments.

#14 Posted by JetiiMitra (8621 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing is Kryptonian, Batman isn't winning in a random.

#15 Edited by dondave (37362 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce

#16 Posted by dagmar_merrill (8532 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce

#17 Edited by Alak (926 posts) - - Show Bio

New 52 Nightwing doesn't really stand a chance. I could, however, make an argument that Pre-52 Nightwing could take the majority against Pre-52 Batman.

#18 Posted by LordoftheNorth (1365 posts) - - Show Bio

@alak: Pre-52 Batman is even more badass than he is now nightwing has never been Bruces' equal certainly not better

#19 Posted by deaditegonzo (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing

#20 Posted by danhimself (22539 posts) - - Show Bio

@reachdestroyer: What does it matter if its dick as batman he has the same gadgets and abilites he had when he was Nighwing so him putting on the cowl adds nothing

it actually hampers Dick as he even mentioned that it was harder to move with the cape

#21 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1638 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce

#22 Posted by Marionettegeist (1912 posts) - - Show Bio

@mitran said:

Nightwing is Kryptonian, Batman isn't winning in a random.

?!?

#23 Posted by deaditegonzo (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@dctv3363 said:

@mitran said:

Nightwing is Kryptonian, Batman isn't winning in a random.

?!?

Nightwing got his name from a Kryptonian super hero. Its a pretty good reference.

#24 Posted by Marionettegeist (1912 posts) - - Show Bio

@dctv3363 said:

@mitran said:

Nightwing is Kryptonian, Batman isn't winning in a random.

?!?

Nightwing got his name from a Kryptonian super hero. Its a pretty good reference.

Huh. The more you know.

#25 Edited by Alak (926 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthenorth: I'd still argue the opposite. Dick was not only taught everything that Bruce knew, he arguably knows how the Batman thinks better than anyone else. When Batman magically obtained Superman's powers and went power hungry, Nightwing put up a better showing against him than anyone else in the Justice League. Not to mention the fact that Dick's in his physical prime (mid 20s) while Bruce was beginning to show his age (must've been in his 40s right up til Flashpoint). Both are fully aware of each others' capabilities, both have body armor that protects against fire, trauma, bullets, and electricity, and they both have similar gadgets. I'm giving this fight to the guy who's at his peak, the same one who managed to stalemate Deathstroke as Batman (something Bruce couldn't manage).

That's just pre-52, though. New-52 Nightwing hasn't shown that he could take on Bruce or anyone of his caliber.

***EDIT***

Oh btw, Nightwing's my favorite superhero so don't be surprised if you see me defending him pretty passionately. If I say something that sounds ridiculous, just brush it off as fanboyism :-)

#26 Posted by LordoftheNorth (1365 posts) - - Show Bio

@alak: 1.Batman taught everthing Dick knows not everything Batman knows

2. Dick might know how Batman thinks but Batman also knows how Dick thinks and Batman being the the better tacticson is already ten steps ahead of Dick

3. Nightwing had a good showing when Batman had supermans powers beucase Batman was out of his mind even than he didnt last long

4. Dick might be in his prime but Batman is more skilled and more experianced and even out of his prime Batman is still stronger than Dick

5. Ya Slade has also defeated the whole JLA does that mean Dick can beat the whole JLA i dont think so

#27 Edited by Alak (926 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthenorth: The first point is actually false since Dick left his tutelage at the age of 17-18, so his training went above and beyond what Bruce taught him. He also trained with the Teen Titans which had some pretty legit H2H fighters like Donna Troy and Starfire. I would also argue about Batman being 10 steps ahead of Dick, especially when Nightwing is widely accepted as the best leader in the entire DC Universe by both its fictional characters and its fans. As Robin, he's used his wits to beat metahuman opponents like Clayface, Mr. Freeze, and Blockbuster. As Nightwing, he overlooked entire battles and helped engineer the defeat of forces such as the Titans of Myth. I won't disagree with you that Batman is the better tactician, but to say that Nightwing is outclassed is borderline ignorant.

The example of Nightwing vs Superbat was just to show you that Dick has an understanding of Bruce that gives him more leverage than your typical opponent. That's why he was able to get a few hits in rather than being absolutely wrecked like everyone else in the Justice League. For point #4, Batman has the edge in experience, but comparing a guy in his 40s to a guy in his 20s is pretty obvious in who has the physical advantage. Especially, since Nightwing has a lot of consistent feats showing that he's faster and more agile than Batman, as well as having the strength to go toe-to-toe with powerhouses like Blockbuster II (the first one nearly killed Batman), KGBeast (who Batman couldn't beat in a fight), Deathstroke (who Batman couldn't beat in a fight), etc. Nightwing is one of the most severely underestimated street-levelers in the DC Universe. I honestly do believe his Pre-52 version could take the majority of wins against Bruce.

http://nightwingfeats.blogspot.com/

^ some good stuff regarding his feats in both pre-52 and new-52 timelines.

#28 Edited by LordoftheNorth (1365 posts) - - Show Bio

@alak: 1 Iam sorry thats just worng Batman wouldnt teach him everything he knows he would leave some things out just in case he ever had to take Dick down

2. Dick is not the best leader if he was he would be leading the JLA which is lead by Batman and Superman who are the best leaders, and this is on on one battle which means leadership is useless so the only thing that mattters is the tactics the use and batman being batman already has a plan for taking out Dick so ya sorry Dick is out classed in this regard

3. Batman was out of his mind when he fought Nightwing so really that point doesnt correlate

4. No its isnt if Dick was in his prime and Batman was in his prime Batman would wipe the floor with Dick. Dick fighting ability is always as an aerolist not a straight up in brawl so iam sorry but this isnt some sport this is combat where skill and experiance mean everything and Batman has the major edge in both.

Batman has beating all thous villians as well (dont know why you think he has never beat KG Beast) And i said before Slade has also beaten the WHOLE JLA does that mean Dick can beat the whole JLA sorry but no Slade is one of the most inconsistanly written characters on the face of the earth.

5. Dick might be one of the most underrated street level fighters but he isnt top teir Batman, Richard Dragon, Lady Shiva, And Bronze tiger are all in a world on their own above the rest of the DCU street level fighters (well at least before the reboot where everyone kind of sucks)

#29 Posted by Alak (926 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthenorth: I think you missed my entire point. My original statement was that if you take the two characters right up to flashpoint, then Nightwing would take the majority against Batman. That means Batman as NOT in his prime and Nightwing IS in his prime. Hence, why I'm so adamant that Dick is Bruce's physical superior. Also, you're missing the point with my other examples. You really need to read:

Superman/Batman #53-56

Robin: Year One

Batman: Ten Nights of the Beast

Most of the things I've stated are backed up in those issues, so I'm not sure where you're getting at saying that Batman did all those things I said he couldn't/didn't do.

#30 Posted by LordoftheNorth (1365 posts) - - Show Bio

@alak: 1. My point was that Bruce out of his prime is still nearly as good as nightwing

2.Understand you think nightwing would take the majority of fights its still bull shit

3. I have read all of those they prove nothing

Superman/Batman- like i said BATMAN WAS OUT OF HIS MIND at that point he wasnt takeing on batman but just some guy with Suermans powers

Robin Year One-Robin takes on abunch of guys batman has beaten to prove himslef to batman so what

Batman: Ten Nights of the Beast-batman beats KG beast by locking him away in a chamber so what that wasnt the last time batman fought him or beat him

#31 Edited by Funkypanda123 (115 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't want this batman will lose his dick

#32 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1638 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthenorth just to jump in, Dick's not leading the JLA because he doesn't, and usually doesn't, want to be on the team. He was shown on panel declining the offer, just as he has many times in the past. So him not leading the JLA has nothing to do with his leadership ability. Doesn't really matter since this is a fight not a leadership competition, but your reasoning for that doesn't hold up.

#33 Edited by Alak (926 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthenorth: ***Obligatory Warning: there's a lotta text :D***

"Still nearly as good" means that he's close but not on par with Nightwing. Given the feats that I've listed and linked to, the advantage of physicality goes to the protege even before he reached his prime. Also, the way you describe the the stories I've mentioned makes me wonder if you've actually read them or looked them up on Wikipedia. In Superman/Batman, Batman wasn't "out of his mind" in the sense that he was incompetent. He became corrupted with power which changed his philosophy on crime-fighting. He was still more than capable of pushing himself to the max in a fight, hence, why he curbstomped half the Justice League at once. The fact that he managed to beat Wonder Woman so easily shows that the "BATMAN WAS OUT OF HIS MIND" excuse is void. Just look at this battles topic to understand why:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/no-powers-batman-vs-wonder-woman-523706/

In Robin: Year One, Dick is already established as a sidekick that Bruce views as his heir. There's was no fight where Dick needed to "prove himself to Batman". Everything he did was in the typical daily life of crime fighting. Since I don't have a scanner, I'll just quote two important scenes:

Issue #1

Batman: "A neat little enclosure movement, Dick."

Robin: "Thanks, Bruce, but you took out three of them."

Batman: "But not with your... finesse. You make it look easy. Your speed. Your agility."

Issue #2

Batman: "Robin! My God! You took down Blockbuster!"

Robin: "I had to lead him away from you. He was going to kill you."

Now keep in mind, this is pre-52 Dick Grayson which means he was only 9-years old in his Year One series. In Ten Nights of the Beast, Batman only resorts to trap KGBeast in that room because he's incapable of actually beating the supersoldier in a fight. That panel of Batman slowly walking away is the most important one since we realize that he may have just let KGBeast die (which he didn't, it was later revealed that the latter was found by the GCPD and taken to Blackgate). That level of desperation demands respect for an opponent like KGBeast. Yet, during the Batman: Cataclysm arc, Nightwing was ordered by Bruce to infiltrate Blackgate and keep the prisoners in line. Nightwing encounters KGBeast (now armed with a weaponized prosthetic limb) and easily dispatches him by throwing him into a wall. Dick was nowhere near his prime during this storyline, and if memory serves me correct, he was only about a year into acting as a solo crime fighter.

All of these feats that I've provided you were performed when Dick Grayson was a child or a young adult. If you want me to name some feats he's performed in his-mid 20s (as Nightwing and as Batman), then I'll say that he has:

  • Soundly beaten (or gotten the upperhand) against Jason Todd in every encounter as Nightwing and as Batman. This was an opponent Bruce initially struggled to defeat.
  • Finally manages to stalemate Deathstroke. This is an opponent Bruce has never beaten in a 1v1 fight.
  • Decisively beat Ra's al Ghul in a sword fight, in which Ra's is using his signature weapon while Dick had to improvise. Ra's is considered to be an incredibly tough opponent for Bruce throughout his crime-fighting career (stalemating on multiple occasions), and is one of the dark knight's most iconic villains aside from the Joker.
  • Stalemated Cassandra Cain on two occasions (both interrupted), a top-tier DC fighter who even killed Lady Shiva in a h2h fight.
  • Beat The Sensei in a fight, and this guy nearly killed Bruce in the past.
  • Gained the upper hand against a fight with Bruce's resurrected clone before it spontaneously burned out and died.

That list is most of the noteworthy things he's done combat-wise (at least relevant to this battle) from his 2007 publications up until Flashpoint in 2011. This is the period in which Nightwing was in his prime. All my prior examples were just to show you how he understands Bruce, as well as how he has surpassed him in some instances.

***If you really think that an aging Bruce Wayne can beat a primed Dick Grayson, then I would ask that you list examples of Batman's feats from the mid-2000s publications up until Flashpoint. Also explain how those particular feats make you believe that Bruce would take the majority against Dick.***

Thanks for reading!

#34 Posted by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

#35 Posted by Spiderman1018 (12 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman would kill knightwing. I love knightwing but batman trained him. Think of this fight like the one from batman robin hood. Batman vs Jason todd. Batman wooped his a**

#36 Posted by entropy_aegis (15312 posts) - - Show Bio

@alak said:

@lordofthenorth: The first point is actually false since Dick left his tutelage at the age of 17-18, so his training went above and beyond what Bruce taught him. He also trained with the Teen Titans which had some pretty legit H2H fighters like Donna Troy and Starfire. I would also argue about Batman being 10 steps ahead of Dick, especially when Nightwing is widely accepted as the best leader in the entire DC Universe by both its fictional characters and its fans. As Robin, he's used his wits to beat metahuman opponents like Clayface, Mr. Freeze, and Blockbuster. As Nightwing, he overlooked entire battles and helped engineer the defeat of forces such as the Titans of Myth. I won't disagree with you that Batman is the better tactician, but to say that Nightwing is outclassed is borderline ignorant.

The example of Nightwing vs Superbat was just to show you that Dick has an understanding of Bruce that gives him more leverage than your typical opponent. That's why he was able to get a few hits in rather than being absolutely wrecked like everyone else in the Justice League. For point #4, Batman has the edge in experience, but comparing a guy in his 40s to a guy in his 20s is pretty obvious in who has the physical advantage. Especially, since Nightwing has a lot of consistent feats showing that he's faster and more agile than Batman, as well as having the strength to go toe-to-toe with powerhouses like Blockbuster II (the first one nearly killed Batman), KGBeast (who Batman couldn't beat in a fight), Deathstroke (who Batman couldn't beat in a fight), etc. Nightwing is one of the most severely underestimated street-levelers in the DC Universe. I honestly do believe his Pre-52 version could take the majority of wins against Bruce.

http://nightwingfeats.blogspot.com/

^ some good stuff regarding his feats in both pre-52 and new-52 timelines.

Batman is faster than Nightwing,his feats of reflexes are easily better.Kg Beast was also beaten by Two-Face,humiliated by Bane and killed by Tally man,he was big in his debut but his cold war gimmick and Banes introduction left him obsolete. Nightwing beat a jobber simple as that,the Beast in his original incarnation would kick Dicks ass.

Just like the Beast your other examples such as Ra's,Cass,Slade and Blockbuster are awfully selective and predisposed to favor Nightwing.

Deathstroke has owned Nightwing more than half a dozen times,Dick doing well against him just once(in that poorly written Titans comic no less) means nothing,Batman has beaten Slade and if I follow your selective example style on one occasion even one shotted him. Ra's has beaten Nightwing twice,Catwoman has beaten Blockbuster but ultimately what matters is that Batman himself has beaten Nightwing so it's not really a matter of debate at all.

#37 Edited by _Atomikill_ (4266 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman vs. way under-trained-but-still-basically-Batman?

My vote seems to be pretty simple here.

#38 Edited by Alak (926 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: For starters, my argument is about what Nightwing can do in his prime vs. what Batman can do in his 40s. Therefore, trying to say how many times he's lost since he was a kid is absolutely irrelevant to my argument. Second, Nightwing is accepted in the DC universe as the faster combatant. Batman, Catwoman, and Nightrunner are examples of characters who have acknowledged this fact. As for those fights I mentioned being predisposed to favor Nightwing, you're essentially saying that the hero wins solely because he's the hero of the story. You've just described the majority of battles in every single comic book. Oh, and Batman has never beaten Deathstroke in a 1v1 fight. I would even challenge you to name me a specific instance where that's happened. The fact that Dick (as Batman) has even managed to stalemate Deathstroke is an incredible feat itself. If you want scans, I'll refer you to this "Batman vs Deathstroke" thread:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/batman-vs-deathstroke-534598/

Come to think of it, Nightwing actually also stalemated Deathstroke in his solo series (Nightwing #117). It was the issue where he breaks into Slade's house in order to tell Rose that her kryptonite eye is going to kill her. I'm sure you'll write that off as "awfully selective", but it's another feat I'm throwing in.

***EDIT***

When did Catwoman beat Blockbuster? I know I've mentioned both Blockbuster I and Blockbuster II, so maybe it's the first you're referring to because I'm pretty sure she's never faced off against the second (the one Nightwing solo'd on his 3rd try).

***EDIT #2***

Oh, and I realize that my opinion is in the minority here and that arguing Batman vs. Nightwing (regardless of circumstances) is a steep uphill battle. If I keep trying to debate you, it's not because I'm in denial that Nightwing would lose. It's just my way of trying better educate non-Nightwing readers as well as rectify the many misconceptions about the character and his capabilities. If there's one thing I can win here, it's winning respect for Dick Grayson.

#39 Posted by neale7 (124 posts) - - Show Bio

@alak: I'm with you. I think Nightwing could beat Batman. Dick Grayson is gifted. The only reason Batman gets this vote is because its Batman. This is coming from a big Batman fan. Nightwing has always been held back, to stop him becoming Batman's equal. You can't after all, have the apprentice beat the Master, especially if the Master is Batman. Batman, because of how he is written, almost has an untouchable aura about him. Though writers have hinted at how great Nightwing is. You posted facts of that yourself.

I'm in the minority who think that Dick is capable of beating Bruce. I'm not saying it would be easy, but it is possible.

#40 Posted by entropy_aegis (15312 posts) - - Show Bio

@alak said:

@entropy_aegis: For starters, my argument is about what Nightwing can do in his prime vs. what Batman can do in his 40s. Therefore, trying to say how many times he's lost since he was a kid is absolutely irrelevant to my argument. Second, Nightwing is accepted in the DC universe as the faster combatant. Batman, Catwoman, and Nightrunner are examples of characters who have acknowledged this fact. As for those fights I mentioned being predisposed to favor Nightwing, you're essentially saying that the hero wins solely because he's the hero of the story. You've just described the majority of battles in every single comic book. Oh, and Batman has never beaten Deathstroke in a 1v1 fight. I would even challenge you to name me a specific instance where that's happened. The fact that Dick (as Batman) has even managed to stalemate Deathstroke is an incredible feat itself. If you want scans, I'll refer you to this "Batman vs Deathstroke" thread:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/batman-vs-deathstroke-534598/

Come to think of it, Nightwing actually also stalemated Deathstroke in his solo series (Nightwing #117). It was the issue where he breaks into Slade's house in order to tell Rose that her kryptonite eye is going to kill her. I'm sure you'll write that off as "awfully selective", but it's another feat I'm throwing in.

***EDIT***

When did Catwoman beat Blockbuster? I know I've mentioned both Blockbuster I and Blockbuster II, so maybe it's the first you're referring to because I'm pretty sure she's never faced off against the second (the one Nightwing solo'd on his 3rd try).

***EDIT #2***

Oh, and I realize that my opinion is in the minority here and that arguing Batman vs. Nightwing (regardless of circumstances) is a steep uphill battle. If I keep trying to debate you, it's not because I'm in denial that Nightwing would lose. It's just my way of trying better educate non-Nightwing readers as well as rectify the many misconceptions about the character and his capabilities. If there's one thing I can win here, it's winning respect for Dick Grayson.

Richard Dragon is also accepted as one of the best fighters...doesn't change the fact that he is severely lagging in actual showings. Batman has superior reflex feats.

Batman defeated Deathstroke in Detective # 710,and he owned him with a single hit in the first Superman/Batman annual.Nightwing stalemated Slade in that terribly written Titan series,the same issue where Croc was going blow for blow with Osiris of all people. Other than that he's done well against him twice and by doing welI I mean not getting killed. Slade has humiliated him on half a dozen other occasions effortlessly. So yeah that showing IS awfully selective. Neither Nightwing nor Batman can beat Deathstroke simple as that but Batman has a better shot.

#41 Edited by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

@alak said:

Oh, and Batman has never beaten Deathstroke in a 1v1 fight. I would even challenge you to name me a specific instance where that's happened. The fact that Dick (as Batman) has even managed to stalemate Deathstroke is an incredible feat itself.

Batman has casually one-shotted Deathstroke on one occasion, so if you want to hang your hat on poor portrayals of Deathstroke......

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#42 Edited by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyway, Batman wipes the floor with him.

@alak said:

When Batman magically obtained Superman's powers and went power hungry, Nightwing put up a better showing against him than anyone else in the Justice League.

Herein lies the basis for the "selective reading" thing.......go back and read that story. Nightwing explicitly stated that the reason he did so well against SuperBat was because Bruce had been avoiding the sun for days, which depleted his power level since Superman's powers depend on sunlight. He fought the Justice League after traveling to the sun and soaking up its rays, restoring him to full power.

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#43 Posted by Wolverine08 (42174 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman 11/10.

#44 Edited by RustyRoy (12684 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce

#45 Posted by IheartZombies92 (2200 posts) - - Show Bio
#46 Edited by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

@iheartzombies92: This is a different set-up, it's New 52 showings only. As of right now it's a mismatch as far as I'm concerned, but people are bound to make this topic in the future, so this thread stays open and they can be directed here.

Moderator Online
#47 Posted by Alak (926 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis:

Detective #710 actually wasn't a fight (when Bruce apprehended him). He sucker-punched him with a rifle when the guy wasn't paying attention. Earlier in that same book, Slade beats Batman in an actual fight. In the Superman/Batman annual, Batman knocks Slade out with a kick while he's in the middle of ranting to Deadpool about his dad and free will. I personally don't consider either of those to be Batman beating Deathstroke in a fight, but since you did list examples of Batman being strong enough to one-punch a metahuman so I'll give you major props for that.

@citizenbane:

How were my earlier references to Deathstroke "poor portrayals"? I listed two fights that ended in a stalemate (interrupted) between him and Dick, and they actually lasted for several pages rather than being ended on with one punch/kick. I'm not saying (nor will I ever) that Nightwing can actually beat Deathstroke. I am using the stalemate as a feat because that's extremely impressive in its own right. Secondly, I'm fully aware of the context of those Superbat fights but it's also the context that keeps that particular showing admirable. Sundipped Superbat faced a small army of heroes led by Wonder Woman (Bruce described her as the best melee combatant on Earth). Non-dipped Superbat solo'd Nightwing (former Robin). Which of these two instances sounds like an easier time for Bruce? If you still want me to justify myself for using this as a feat, then I'll list some points for you:

  • Bruce still had access to all of his memories, experiences, fighting techniques, etc. At the worst, he was still Batman: a character that 99% of comic readers seem to agree could stomp Nightwing in a regular fight.
  • Bruce still had access to Superman's powers: speed, flight, strength, durability (skin withstood Catwoman's attacks), and heat vision.
  • Let's say he was sun-dipped, would that change the fact that Nightwing dodged all his attempts at using heat vision? Would it somehow make those shots move that much faster? Would Superbat have dodged that ricocheted escrima stick that stuck him in the back of the head?
  • Nearly everyone on DC's superhero/supervillain roster knows where Superman's powers are derived from. Yet, if memory serves me right, Dick's the only person to have deliberately attack him at night. Sure, he lasted less than 60 seconds in that fight and was bed-ridden as a result of it, but it still shows that he always thinks tactfully when engaging opponents more powerful than him (not unlike his mentor, if I might add). That's the big take away message with this fight: his approach to combat, not the capability itself.

#48 Edited by SilverPool (1488 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce would win because he's obsessive to the point where he's nearly a master of everything physical that could help him in a scenario.

But it would be a hell of a fight and I'd love to see it.

I'd personally have to root for Dick though.

#49 Edited by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

@alak said:

@entropy_aegis:

Detective #710 actually wasn't a fight (when Bruce apprehended him). He sucker-punched him with a rifle when the guy wasn't paying attention. Earlier in that same book, Slade beats Batman in an actual fight. In the Superman/Batman annual, Batman knocks Slade out with a kick while he's in the middle of ranting to Deadpool about his dad and free will. I personally don't consider either of those to be Batman beating Deathstroke in a fight, but since you did list examples of Batman being strong enough to one-punch a metahuman so I'll give you major props for that.

@citizenbane:

How were my earlier references to Deathstroke "poor portrayals"? I listed two fights that ended in a stalemate (interrupted) between him and Dick, and they actually lasted for several pages rather than being ended on with one punch/kick. I'm not saying (nor will I ever) that Nightwing can actually beat Deathstroke. I am using the stalemate as a feat because that's extremely impressive in its own right. Secondly, I'm fully aware of the context of those Superbat fights but it's also the context that keeps that particular showing admirable. Sundipped Superbat faced a small army of heroes led by Wonder Woman (Bruce described her as the best melee combatant on Earth). Non-dipped Superbat solo'd Nightwing (former Robin). Which of these two instances sounds like an easier time for Bruce? If you still want me to justify myself for using this as a feat, then I'll list some points for you:

  • Bruce still had access to all of his memories, experiences, fighting techniques, etc. At the worst, he was still Batman: a character that 99% of comic readers seem to agree could stomp Nightwing in a regular fight.
  • Bruce still had access to Superman's powers: speed, flight, strength, durability (skin withstood Catwoman's attacks), and heat vision.
  • Let's say he was sun-dipped, would that change the fact that Nightwing dodged all his attempts at using heat vision? Would it somehow make those shots move that much faster? Would Superbat have dodged that ricocheted escrima stick that stuck him in the back of the head?
  • Nearly everyone on DC's superhero/supervillain roster knows where Superman's powers are derived from. Yet, if memory serves me right, Dick's the only person to have deliberately attack him at night. Sure, he lasted less than 60 seconds in that fight and was bed-ridden as a result of it, but it still shows that he always thinks tactfully when engaging opponents more powerful than him (not unlike his mentor, if I might add). That's the big take away message with this fight: his approach to combat, not the capability itself.

You're using a stalemate from a book that was notorious for horrible writing; under the same writer, Killer Croc was beating up Osiris. Pick and choose feats as you please, but let's not pretend Dick and Slade don't have a history that extends beyond the examples you decided were worthy of mention. Nightwing once jumped out a window and ran away rather than try and fight Slade in what he knew would be a losing battle, and years later he attacked an unarmed, unarmored Slade on the street and was laid out by one punch. You want comparative analyses to justify the validity of the feat? Fine. Nightwing and Arsenal have fought three times. One fight was a sparring match that ended in a stalemate, the second fight was a brutal no-holds barred fight that again ended in a stalemate, and in the third fight, Dick defeated Roy while he was on drugs and hallucinating. The only legitimate outcome Nightwing and Arsenal have ever had, coupled with the sparring match before it, draws the inference that they are roughly equals. Meanwhile, Deathstroke curbstomped the hell out of Arsenal when they fought in the most recent pre-Flashpoint Outsiders run. Nightwing was chumped twice by Bane; Batman has defeated or gained the upper hand on Bane twice. Elliot Caldwell stomped Nightwing by turning his own weapon against him and nearly killing him in the process. Batman stalemated Caldwell twice, and at one point had Caldwell on the ropes before Dick entered the fight and was nearly killed, forcing Bruce to save him while Wrath escaped. Lady Shiva took Nightwing down with one hit during Brotherhood of the Fist. Batman's record against her is much better. Comparative analyses will not work out well for Nightwing. Everyone he's "done well" against invariably possesses a better track record against common opponents than he does.

Batman wasn't just "non-sundipped" in that showing, he was severely weakened by the lack of sunlight to the point that he even acknowledged Nightwing's blow had hurt him. Unless you're of the opinion that Nightwing can hurt Superman, "non-sundipped" is yet another selective description.

Bruce had access to all his skills and was still in possession of a depleted form of Kryptonian abilities. He simply didn't want to fight Nightwing. He literally tried to talk Dick out of the fight before it started, telling him that he knew he was afraid and that the fight would only end badly for him. Nor was Bruce sundipped when he fought the League, that term implies an amped level of power from Superman's base. He had simply replenished himself to 100%. Would he have dodged the escrima stick under those circumstances? Quite likely. His senses and speed would have been much, much greater.

And no other hero attacked Batman before Dick did. He was the first. It's not like there was this laundry list of people who attacked Bruce and failed before Dick had the genius idea of fighting him at night. Plus "guy who gets powers from sunlight = I'll have a better chance at night" seems like kindergarten logic if you ask me; I don't see what's so tactically impressive about it. It's common sense, and I should hope Dick was capable of figuring that much out. Batman's idea of fighting tactically is beating an opponent much more powerful than himself, like Composite Superman, by literally talking said opponent into committing suicide in front of him. That strikes me as a lot more impressive than Nightwing making a logical connection I would expect most five-year-olds to manage.

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#50 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (20238 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: Actually in the pre-Flashpoint Outsiders run, I personally believe Nightwing won since he pulled out the gun on Harper to show that he was still traumatized. It wasn't a big win by any means but I just wanted to point that out. Agreed on all your points though. Excellent write-up too if I say so myself.