#301 Posted by TheBournePoster (575 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: Batman was ambushed during Hush and didn't want to hurt Superman, misgivings he won't have here.

#302 Edited by dondave (34706 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: Batman was ambushed during Hush and didn't want to hurt Superman, misgivings he won't have here.

If he had planned ahead he could have easily turned the Kryptonite into a smoke variant which could have knocked him out or stunned him ala Lex Luthor, rather than nearly breaking his hand trying to punch him

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#303 Edited by dondave (34706 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

Also New Krypton WAS NOT A FULL SIZED PLANET,Luthor has never blown up a planet nor has he shown to be capable of performing such a feat,at best it was a big city and that's it. Luthor has also been one shotted by Superman which is why I have no idea why people are bringing up scans of Supeerman destroying Batman.

What are you talking about, New Krypton was planet, Kandor was a city, maybe you're confusing the two?

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#304 Posted by DigitalShooter9 (1491 posts) - - Show Bio
#305 Posted by DigitalShooter9 (1491 posts) - - Show Bio

Lex gets beaten to a bloody pulp then put in arkham, effortlessly by batman, get over it.........

#306 Edited by dondave (34706 posts) - - Show Bio
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#307 Posted by Saren (25332 posts) - - Show Bio

Also New Krypton WAS NOT A FULL SIZED PLANET,Luthor has never blown up a planet nor has he shown to be capable of performing such a feat,at best it was a big city and that's it.

New Krypton was a full sized planet. When it's created in AC 873 you can see the original city of New Krypton as a small blip on the planet's surface.

It's also repeatedly called a planet during Superman's stay and Brainiac's invasion. The Guardians acknowledged it as a planet as well, as did Sodam Yat and John Stewart. The city was just the only part of the planet that had been populated and was habitable. They were terraforming the rest of it when Brainiac attacked.

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#308 Edited by Omnicrono (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane said:

@entropy_aegis said:

Also New Krypton WAS NOT A FULL SIZED PLANET,Luthor has never blown up a planet nor has he shown to be capable of performing such a feat,at best it was a big city and that's it.

New Krypton was a full sized planet. When it's created in AC 873 you can see the original city of New Krypton as a small blip on the planet's surface.

It's also repeatedly called a planet during Superman's stay and Brainiac's invasion. The Guardians acknowledged it as a planet as well, as did Sodam Yat and John Stewart. The city was just the only part of the planet that had been populated and was habitable. They were terraforming the rest of it when Brainiac attacked.

Hmm...

Unless that city is just unbelievably large, the planet itself actually looks quite small for being a "full-sized" planet. Not gonna lie. Particularly when looking at it in the third panel.

EDIT:

If the city was the size of the speck (circled in green) it would a little more believable... to me at least... that this was a full-sized planet to begin with. Just saying.

#309 Edited by Saren (25332 posts) - - Show Bio

@omnicrono said:

@citizenbane said:

@entropy_aegis said:

Also New Krypton WAS NOT A FULL SIZED PLANET,Luthor has never blown up a planet nor has he shown to be capable of performing such a feat,at best it was a big city and that's it.

New Krypton was a full sized planet. When it's created in AC 873 you can see the original city of New Krypton as a small blip on the planet's surface.

It's also repeatedly called a planet during Superman's stay and Brainiac's invasion. The Guardians acknowledged it as a planet as well, as did Sodam Yat and John Stewart. The city was just the only part of the planet that had been populated and was habitable. They were terraforming the rest of it when Brainiac attacked.

Hmm...

Unless that city is just unbelievably large, the planet itself actually looks quite small for being a "full-sized" planet. Not gonna lie. Particularly when looking at it in the third panel.

EDIT:

If the city was the size of the speck (circled in green) it would a little more believable... to me at least... that this was a full-sized planet to begin with. Just saying.

The third scan is the city whilst the planet was still forming. You can see the city relatively shrinking in size as the planet develops. This is what the completed planet looked like.

Additionally there's a whole bunch of characters who have observed or visited New Krypton; all of them called it a planet. Not a moon, not a planetoid, not a mini-world, a proper planet. DC Earth's NASA considered New Krypton a planet. The Guardians of the Universe are literally experts on just about everything in the universe, and they felt alright calling it a planet. Why shouldn't anyone else?

There's also an arc in World of New Krypton where it's shown to be bigger than Callisto, a moon of Jupiter that's bigger than the Earth's moon and about as big as Mercury.

And honestly, it's not like it even matters. Batman has never displayed the ability to blow up even a country before, never mind an entire planet. Nitpicking about the size of the planet Lex destroyed doesn't change anything.

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#310 Posted by Omnicrono (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: I am not debating whether or not New Krypton was a planet. It was.

But, its size seems to be very debatable. You are right that it ultimately doesn't matter though, at least not as it pertains to this battle.

#311 Posted by entropy_aegis (14542 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@entropy_aegis said:

Seems to me people are bringing up an awful lot of PIS/badly written stories in Luthors favor too.

The Black Ring was all over the place,it may have had Lex fighting Larfleeze and killing Brainiac but lets not forget Grodd killed Lex and Deathstroke beat him(and almost killed him).

The scan where he's holding WW,BC and Vixen hostage is from Mcduffies JLA,Luthor had an army of major super villains backing him and he still got his ass kicked in a horrible one sided stomp.

While I do believe that Lex is capable of turning the sun red but to kill near a hundred thousand Kryptonians is just bull,it's clearly PIS.The writers wanted to end the New Krypton saga and restore the status quo as quick as possible.

Also Luthor killing that random Kryptonian by his lonesome isn't really impressive.K-nite,bullet,gas and solar flame? weak.Batman could have just as easily accomplished it.

AAAND finally Reign of Dommsday,I'm sorry but that dog crap should not even count,it's a craptastic story no matter how you look at it.

Luthor does win however.

Batman would lose to both Gorilla Grodd and Deathstroke.

It was acknowledged that he was leading a group of Super-villains but it was his plan of attack that they used to defeat the Justice League, not to mention he would have killed Superman if not for Firestorm.

Why is him destroying New Krypton PIS?

Batman could have used the same tactics on Superman during Hush, it just show that they apply their resources in different ways with Luthor's being more effective.

Whether the story was rubbish, the feat is till relevant and can't be discounted.

Batman losing to Grodd and Slade has nothing to do with my original point,it's pretty simple the same power suit that stood up to Larfleeze and Brainiac could not hold it's own against Deathstroke and last I checked Deathstroke was nowhere near either character.

That same comic had Roy Harper and Black Canary owning Fatality and Giganta,it had Grodd running around like a moron,it also had Superman one shotting Luthor,You cant just pick the feats that you like and discard the others.

If you had actually read War of the Supermen then you'd know that it was precisely PIS.PIS isn't just Batman beating Superman, a red sun doesn't make Kryptonians lose their powers instantaneously and that is exactly what happened.

I have a better question,why hasn't Luthor used those same tactics against Superman if they were so brilliant? gas,bullet,flare,unimpressive to say the least.Mind you if Batman DID use similar methods,fans are gonna go and cry PIS.They would go on and on about speed blitz,Superman's super lungs etc.

Reign of Doomsday was a dismal story where the plot and power levels made next to no sense.It absolutely should not count,even Luthors connection to the story was vague at best.

#312 Posted by entropy_aegis (14542 posts) - - Show Bio
#313 Posted by dondave (34706 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: Grodd sniped Lex when he wasn't even in his warsuit, it's not a low-feat, also he wasn't serious when he was engaging Deathstroke, he was making jokes about being Slade's daughter and trying to understand what the black lantern eenrgy was causing, not to mention it's not his main battlesuit, it's his portable battle suit which is inferior to the one he used against Superman

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#314 Edited by entropy_aegis (14542 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@entropy_aegis: Grodd sniped Lex when he wasn't even in his warsuit, it's not a low-feat, also he wasn't serious when he was engaging Deathstroke, he was making jokes about being Slade's daughter and trying to understand what the black lantern eenrgy was causing, not to mention it's not his main battlesuit, it's his portable battle suit which is inferior to the one he used against Superman

Grodd outsmarted Luthor and then killed him,there's no other way around it even though Lex started off with an advantage.

Luthor was not making jokes about being Slade's daughter,dont twist things,it was a battle tactic to,he intentionally mimicked Rose's voice to throw Slade off balance. and he still lost.That same battle suit held it's own against Larfleeze(scans of which have been posted to show how Luthor is so badass) so the portable excuse doesn't work.

#315 Posted by dondave (34706 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@entropy_aegis: Grodd sniped Lex when he wasn't even in his warsuit, it's not a low-feat, also he wasn't serious when he was engaging Deathstroke, he was making jokes about being Slade's daughter and trying to understand what the black lantern eenrgy was causing, not to mention it's not his main battlesuit, it's his portable battle suit which is inferior to the one he used against Superman

Grodd outsmarted Luthor and then killed him,there's no other way around it even though Lex started off with an advantage.

Luthor was not making jokes about being Slade's daughter,dont twist things,it was a battle tactic to,he intentionally mimicked Rose's voice to throw Slade off balance. and he still lost.That same battle suit held it's own against Larfleeze(scans of which have been posted to show how Luthor is so badass) so the portable excuse doesn't work.

He didn't outsmart Lex at all, Lex had already beat him and was leaving on his helicopter when Grodd shot him from the Jungle and I don't see how that correlates into outsmarting Lex. It's not the same suit, the suit he used against Deathstroke is portable suit and can be noted to be less bulky than the one the used against Larfleeze

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#316 Edited by BadVoodoo (381 posts) - - Show Bio

GOT DAM MOTHER FUCKER SO MUCH BIAS! Mostly bat bias with a dash of "i want batman to lose/ i wanna suck lex luthors dick) bias.

  • First, this is one of the few times Prep would kill batman. Mainly because Lex out techs him. Batman technological know how would be used for defense, not offense. (Surviving a hacking attempt by Lex or calculating the purpose of Lex gadgets.)
  • Second, The Tower of Babel feats should be included more, they are all extremely impressive and reasonable (except Flashes contingency plan) and you guys ignore it.
  • Third, Defeating brainiac is a notable feat but not turning the sun red since it doesn't help Lex in any way.
  • Fourth, Batman wouldn't go toe to toe with Lex's tech, batfags stop making batman go toe to toe with Lex in tech because he wouldn't do that.
  • Fifth, The Joker punks Lex. This is noteworthy but to be fair its because Lex underestimates the joker...

Scenario 1. Being the worlds greatest detective this would be a one way mirror with Batman spying on Lex the entire prep. Lex would be unaware of this because of batmans secrecy. Using his tech Batman would try to counter whatever Lex cooks up. For example if Lex cooks up a giant robot batman would try to find a way to break Lexs out of the suit.

Scenario 2 More realistically Batman would start the fight earlier then 1 month and attack Lex while he's weakest.

Scenario 1 Batman would probably lose the battle, usually he would flee and fight another day but being Blood lusted he would stay and fight and get himself killed. Scenario 2 Batman would win.

Unless Lex has to take a moment to become arrogant (which he seems to do alot) and exposes his head, where he'll receive a batdart to the forehead =P.

#317 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (7230 posts) - - Show Bio

7 pages in one week good job OP you've created a mismatch flame war.

#318 Edited by ComicStooge (12070 posts) - - Show Bio
@badvoodoo said:

GOT DAM MOTHER FUCKER SO MUCH BIAS! Mostly bat bias with a dash of "i want batman to lose/ i wanna suck lex luthors dick) bias.

  • First, this is one of the few times Prep would kill batman. Mainly because Lex out techs him. Batman technological know how would be used for defense, not offense. (Surviving a hacking attempt by Lex or calculating the purpose of Lex gadgets.)
  • Second, The Tower of Babel feats should be included more, they are all extremely impressive and reasonable (except Flashes contingency plan) and you guys ignore it.
  • Third, Defeating brainiac is a notable feat but not turning the sun red since it doesn't help Lex in any way.
  • Fourth, Batman wouldn't go toe to toe with Lex's tech, batfags stop making batman go toe to toe with Lex in tech because he wouldn't do that.
  • Fifth, The Joker punks Lex. This is noteworthy but to be fair its because Lex underestimates the joker...

Scenario 1. Being the worlds greatest detective this would be a one way mirror with Batman spying on Lex the entire prep. Lex would be unaware of this because of batmans secrecy. Using his tech Batman would try to counter whatever Lex cooks up. For example if Lex cooks up a giant robot batman would try to find a way to break Lexs out of the suit.

Scenario 2 More realistically Batman would start the fight earlier then 1 month and attack Lex while he's weakest.

Scenario 1 Batman would probably lose the battle, usually he would flee and fight another day but being Blood lusted he would stay and fight and get himself killed. Scenario 2 Batman would win.

Unless Lex has to take a moment to become arrogant (which he seems to do alot) and exposes his head, where he'll receive a batdart to the forehead =P.

Lex's suit has a shield encompassing his head.

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#319 Posted by BadVoodoo (381 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Going by the games and cartoons and a few comic books he often takes it off to make a "haha i outsmarted you" remark.

#320 Posted by ComicStooge (12070 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Going by the games and cartoons and a few comic books he often takes it off to make a "haha i outsmarted you" remark.

Can you give me an example?

And games and cartoons aren't canon.

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#321 Posted by entropy_aegis (14542 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@dondave said:

@entropy_aegis: Grodd sniped Lex when he wasn't even in his warsuit, it's not a low-feat, also he wasn't serious when he was engaging Deathstroke, he was making jokes about being Slade's daughter and trying to understand what the black lantern eenrgy was causing, not to mention it's not his main battlesuit, it's his portable battle suit which is inferior to the one he used against Superman

Grodd outsmarted Luthor and then killed him,there's no other way around it even though Lex started off with an advantage.

Luthor was not making jokes about being Slade's daughter,dont twist things,it was a battle tactic to,he intentionally mimicked Rose's voice to throw Slade off balance. and he still lost.That same battle suit held it's own against Larfleeze(scans of which have been posted to show how Luthor is so badass) so the portable excuse doesn't work.

He didn't outsmart Lex at all, Lex had already beat him and was leaving on his helicopter when Grodd shot him from the Jungle and I don't see how that correlates into outsmarting Lex. It's not the same suit, the suit he used against Deathstroke is portable suit and can be noted to be less bulky than the one the used against Larfleeze

Luthor underestimated Grodd,either way Lex lost and in prep anything goes and that includes sneak attacks and cheap shots.

It was the same suit,unless you can prove otherwise.It was the same arc by the same creative team.

#322 Edited by spaceghost77 (29 posts) - - Show Bio

u r talking about sneak attacks and cheap shots with luthor....trust me luthor can teach batman these things...luthor stomps....

#323 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (11836 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: Lex didn't "lose" to deathstroke, he was trying to snap him out of the black lantern anomaly's mental grasp and distracted himself with meaningless monologue .... CIS if anything. After he got flipped he decided not to even fight back and continued to monologue, got kicked in the face and it didn't even knock him out. That shouldn't even count as a loss since he was playing around trying to get Slade back to his senses without even keeping up his shields which have protected him from Larfleeze or handling him with enough force to snap Brainiac, after their scuffle he was fighting off mental assault and decided to fight that instead of Deathstroke. Lex obviously had the means to obliterate Slade but wasn't even trying to fight....It's PIS that Slade even landed those two hits that didn't even down Lex. Its the same thing as saying Deathstroke lost to Green Arrow

#324 Edited by entropy_aegis (14542 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: Lex didn't "lose" to deathstroke, he was trying to snap him out of the black lantern anomaly's mental grasp and distracted himself with meaningless monologue .... CIS if anything. After he got flipped he decided not to even fight back and continued to monologue, got kicked in the face and it didn't even knock him out. That shouldn't even count as a loss since he was playing around trying to get Slade back to his senses without even keeping up his shields which have protected him from Larfleeze or handling him with enough force to snap Brainiac, after their scuffle he was fighting off mental assault and decided to fight that instead of Deathstroke. Lex obviously had the means to obliterate Slade but wasn't even trying to fight....It's PIS that Slade even landed those two hits that didn't even down Lex. Its the same thing as saying Deathstroke lost to Green Arrow

Deathstroke's kick was able to penetrate Lex's force field and made him bleed(the invisible one).

Regardless a character that can apparently challenge Larfleeze and Brainiac shouldn't be struggling with Slade.The black ring was all over the place and I feel that people are using only parts of it in Luthors favor and disowning the other parts.I find all 3 fights(Deathstroke,Larfleeze and Brainiac) to be awfully written,I agree that Deathstroke should not be challenge but Lex shouldn't be able to snap Brainiac's neck either.

#325 Edited by dondave (34706 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@dondave said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@dondave said:

@entropy_aegis: Grodd sniped Lex when he wasn't even in his warsuit, it's not a low-feat, also he wasn't serious when he was engaging Deathstroke, he was making jokes about being Slade's daughter and trying to understand what the black lantern eenrgy was causing, not to mention it's not his main battlesuit, it's his portable battle suit which is inferior to the one he used against Superman

Grodd outsmarted Luthor and then killed him,there's no other way around it even though Lex started off with an advantage.

Luthor was not making jokes about being Slade's daughter,dont twist things,it was a battle tactic to,he intentionally mimicked Rose's voice to throw Slade off balance. and he still lost.That same battle suit held it's own against Larfleeze(scans of which have been posted to show how Luthor is so badass) so the portable excuse doesn't work.

He didn't outsmart Lex at all, Lex had already beat him and was leaving on his helicopter when Grodd shot him from the Jungle and I don't see how that correlates into outsmarting Lex. It's not the same suit, the suit he used against Deathstroke is portable suit and can be noted to be less bulky than the one the used against Larfleeze

Luthor underestimated Grodd,either way Lex lost and in prep anything goes and that includes sneak attacks and cheap shots.

It was the same suit,unless you can prove otherwise.It was the same arc by the same creative team.

How did he under estimate Grodd, it was the other way around it was Grodd who under-estimated Lex

He'd completely fooled Grodd and was leaving on his helicopter, when Grodd shot Lex, he didn't even kill him

The suit design that he used against Deathstroke was his portable suit which would be less likely to carry his whole arsenal in it, in his battle with a in his battle with Larfleeze at Lex Corp his suit is seen to be more bulky which would fall in line in with what his suit has been capable of such as killing Libra,making Superman bleed and beating up Brainiac. Also both issue were drawn by the same artist

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#326 Posted by MuyJingo (1585 posts) - - Show Bio

Just wanted to apologize for the delay in replying.

.

The Firestorm Matrix is an artifact possessing power on a universal scale. Manipulating it is an extremely impressive feat. If you think Batman has feats that rival that, present them.

I wasn't to familiar with that feat by Luthor, and was actually asking your opinion on if you think Batman has done anything similar. I'm still having trouble discerning details about Luthors feat, or more info about the firestorm matrix. Could you give or link to a quick summary, or just let me know the arc this occurred in?

Some of Batman's greatest science/engineering feats I think are:

  • Creating Brother Eye
  • Creating technology to hide from Superman
  • Designing a synthesized form of Kryptonite
  • Harnessing into Green Lantern corp energy and the Speed Force via the insider suit
  • Taking control of the entire Gotham communications system
  • Reverse engineering and controlling various alien technologies not previously encountered
  • Building a device to block Martian telepathy.
  • Built a teleporter that teleported him inside Luthor's secret satellite
  • Synthesizing a Lazarus pit
  • Quiet a few more I'm forgetting.

So, yes, I think he could put up an interesting challenge to Luthor. I'm not saying Bruce woudl win, I'm saying it wouldn't be a stomp. I think it would be a close fight.

Luthor can be more intelligent and better at science...Bruce is better tactically. Bruce has complete mastery over his mind and body which Luthor lacks, and the man is obsessed as much as a man can be....I think this make up for the intelligence advantage Lex has.

Batman has infiltrated Lex's secret headquaters, screwed with his plans and technology several times, and Lex hasn't been able to stop him. That should not be discounted. Nor should the fact that if Bruce can hide from Superman, then hiding from Lex is a whole lot simpler.

Action Comics 898. Scans are up ^.

Did you upload them, or did someone else? I only saw a scan of Larfleeze attacking Luthor on 1 page, while Luthor seemed to have a shield up.

Because it's not that trivial, and your stance here is one of the most ridiculous no-limits fallacies I've ever seen on this site. We can clone farm animals. We've never even moved beyond cloning a handful of human embryos. You think we can clone a Doomsday given his genetic material, alien DNA that we've never seen before and that is, in canon, hard to duplicate perfectly? Just because we cloned flipping Dolly?

Wow. You're calling my stance ridiculous, but did you even read what you wrote? You''re basically asserting our real world universe and the DCU are equivilent when it comes to technological advancement. Now, that's ridiculous. Yes, in the real world we are only just beginning to understand cloning. In the DCU, that isn't the case. Cloning is advanced enough that a team of scientists can create a new being by splicing human and kryptonian DNA, and then rapidly age it. Do I even have to point out all the other man made tech that exists that we are no where even near, to show the discrepancies in tech levels?

Talia al Ghul, with all the scientific knowledge money can buy, couldn't clone Damian Wayne properly; she created a malformed freak with a body accelerated far beyond its mind. Evidently cloning a Doomsday is not as simple as you would like to pretend. Your position is akin to claiming that if you can cook something as simple as an omelette, you can automatically and by correlation cook a perfect three-course meal that could be served in a Michelin-starred restaurant. Come on.

That just makes Talia look less capable. Damian is but a human. A small team of dedicated scientists was able to create SuperBoy, a Kryptonian/Human halfbreed. I'm pretty sure NOWHERE had less resources than the league. So what's Talia's excuse for not being able to clone a human when a group with less resources do something far more advanced?

And cloning Doomsday has been portrayed as a scientific feat. Darkseid himself couldn't figure out how to clone Doomsday perfectly, and he's Darkseid. The guy has created beings more powerful than Orion and Lightray put together and bombs that could unravel time itself. Doomsday's genetic structure was something he couldn't wrap his head around; all the clones he created were weak imitations of the original. So he went to, you guessed it, Lex Luthor, and told him that if Luthor cloned him a perfect Doomsday, Earth's war debt to Apokolips would be cleared. Luthor delivered.

Fair enough. It sounds like PIS to me, although I havent read the arc. Why would Darkseid have trouble understanding something a lesser being created?

And what is this spaceship, anyway?

Spaceship is in Superman/Batman. It was also in Batman and Robin in the New 52. There's also a scan of Batman in a small flying saucer craft floating around, although I don't know which issue it is from.

Perhaps if you came up with a more pertinent example, your claim of flawed logic might work.

I don't need a more pertinent example. Arguing that Lex can beat Bruce because Lex killed a bunch of Kryptonians by catching them by surprising with a red sun, is a flawed argument. Lex being able to blow up a planet -- all but irrelevant. You're paragraph above listing Lex's scientific feats is far more impressive and helps your argument far more.

Of course I disagree. Designing a spaceship has absolutely nothing to do with destroying a planet. Batman did not design the Watchtower. It was built on the foundations of the old JLA Satellite Base, and then with modified technology harvested from the Hyperclan's base in the Still Zone. Steel and Martian Manhunter have had more input on the Watchtower's design than Batman. Batman designed portions of the post-Watchtower Hall of Justice, but according to Wonder Woman most of the designs were John Stewart's work. The Insider Suit is not even capable of destruction on a city-level basis. Nothing Batman has ever built has ever exhibited that level of destructive capability. Period.

Designing a spaceship indicates a certain level of scientific and engineering prowess. I didn't say designing a spaceship had anything to do with blowing up a planet, I said I think they require a similar amount of skill. Essentially, if you can design a spaceship on your own, you can probably blow up a planet.

As far as blowing up a planet? Here's where I bring up the Supergirl from Krypton arc. Bruce managed to infiltrate an alien military base on one of the most advanced planets in the galaxy, reverse engineer and reprogram the hellspores and set them to detonate, which would most assuredly have destroyed the planet. It was only by Darkseid agreeing to Batman's terms that this was averted. Given Batman's technical prowess I don't think it is too unlikely that he could return to apokolips and take a hellspore and use it. I see that as at least one plausible way Bruce could destroy a planet.

It appears I was wrong about the watchtower. I think I had been going by the JL/JLU cartoons, where Bruce is said to have designed the watchtower. Thanks for setting me straight.

The Insider suit to me is impressive not because of how powerful it is, but because of the technology and science feats Bruce accomplished in creating it. He managed to make something that was not a GL ring, yet could still tapp into the same energy and make constructs. Has Luthor or anyone done anything similar? Professor Ivo perhaps. I think that is an extremely impressive feat. Likewise, he tapped into the speedforce in a controlled manner and was able to utilize it for short periods of time.

Fine. Forget I said anything. Lex blows up the planet. Batman dies.

Has Lex ever demonstrated suicidal and/or genocidal tendencies?

Please keep in mind, I'm not arguing that Batman would win. I'm simply arguing that I don't think it would be a stomp. I think Bruce could win.

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#327 Edited by Dextersinister (5805 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo: Just going to correct 2 points as I'm lazy.

Superman only hides from Supermans hearing which is fairly unimpressive as sound dampening tech is common as muck, sneaking up on Superman is one of the most common forms of PIS used against him as it should be next to impossible. A bubble of soundlessness would stand out, he see's in multiple spectrums not to mention having obscenely good eyesight but he still gets jumped otherwise guys like parasite would be a laughable threat.

Batman going over all the villains tech is one of those moments that's been contradicted, all the tech that the JL defeated was actually being used by the world governments. There was a fairly recent arc around it pre-flashpoint.

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#328 Posted by logy5000 (5655 posts) - - Show Bio

With a month of prep?

Lex Luthor wins this.

#329 Edited by pein2010 (94 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo Those are all the feats you list, lex did some feats which are on par or better. Those list above is nowhere near best lex feat level.

  • Creating Brother Eye: simple satellite with steath setting, got hacked by Ra's al Ghul. bat lost the trust of JL. so pathetic
  • Creating technology to hide from Superman: superman did not even try.
  • Designing a synthesized form of Kryptonite: take YEARS to develop. Lex Luthor and ra's al ghul also developed it. all non-canon.
  • Harnessing into Green Lantern corp energy and the Speed Force via the insider suit: no deep knowledge about this so no comments but i know this armor is weaker than lex suit.
  • Taking control of the entire Gotham communications system: lol this is not impressive at all. Current technology of OUR WORLD can do similar things.
  • Reverse engineering and controlling various alien technologies not previously encountered: you use this feat to compare with someone who masters krypton technology enough to rebuilt brainiac or fuse with him ? seems so pathetic.
  • Building a device to block Martian telepathy. magneto helm or juggernaut helm ... not even close to impressive feat at all. prof.x is on par if not better than mm in telepathy (does this need to be explained ?)
  • Built a teleporter that teleported him inside Luthor's secret satellite. Luthor DID create a teleporter too.

I better give my vote to the one who can create cancer cure in 1 lunchtime, killed thousands of kryptons, have a regular level 9 intellect and 12 after brainiac "fixed" him.

With any prep time >=1 hour, lex wins. With any prep time >=1 day, lex stomps. My reply count reaches limit, any arguments pm me.

#330 Posted by TheBournePoster (575 posts) - - Show Bio

@pein2010:

I understand that your reply count reached a limit, but I can wait.

The first one, I kind of agree, Brother Eye was overrated to some extent.

I'm afraid that you're baseless conjecture and speculation has no place in this debate, sorry.

Okay, a couple equally impressive feats, he created a lazarus pit in the batcave, as well as a formula that turned concrete into water "smelling like milk and honey"

It it not as impressive as it sounds.

Yeah, this isn't on par with other feats.

No, it doesn't. It sounds on par.

Simply because the feat was replicated in another universe against lesser telepaths doesn't make this feat unimpressive.

So, on par.

I better give my vote to the one who could reconstruct Red Tornado and turn a plant (Poison Ivy) into a human.

#331 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (11836 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman only hides from Supermans hearing

I think an edit is in order ....

#332 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (11836 posts) - - Show Bio

Lex still wins easily

#333 Edited by Dextersinister (5805 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days: Your right.

Telepathic blockers are also as common as muck. Heroes that are in a team with any amount of resources really should wear them as standard but they won't because a rogue telepath is an endless source of drama.

If you where to take a shot for every time that the MM, Professor X and Jean had said out loud that something was blocking or messing with their telepathy you would rupture.

High school kids had telepathic blockers that stopped the Prof for crying out loud.

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#334 Posted by Lvenger (18496 posts) - - Show Bio

Why is this thread still going? Lex stomps fairly easily.

#335 Posted by Elendil743 (10 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

Why is this thread still going? Lex stomps fairly easily.

Yup... Batman has just some toys while Luthor has a couple of weapons which simply stomp Batman

#336 Posted by i_like_swords (13300 posts) - - Show Bio

I read through every page of this thread and came out with a headache.

Look, I don't own any comics featuring Batman nor Luthor, but based on the arguments given in this thread, it's obvious Luthor wins.

It's not about "Batmans more tactical" or "Batman could do this without morals", its about listening to reason. Being biased to a character and refusing to put your hands up and say "okay, you got me" will get you absolutely nowhere.

Let the thread die, and your fanboyism with it.

#337 Posted by dondave (34706 posts) - - Show Bio
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#338 Posted by Lvenger (18496 posts) - - Show Bio

I read through every page of this thread and came out with a headache.

Look, I don't own any comics featuring Batman nor Luthor, but based on the arguments given in this thread, it's obvious Luthor wins.

It's not about "Batmans more tactical" or "Batman could do this without morals", its about listening to reason. Being biased to a character and refusing to put your hands up and say "okay, you got me" will get you absolutely nowhere.

Let the thread die, and your fanboyism with it.

QFT.

#339 Posted by godzilla44 (2702 posts) - - Show Bio

We all know what batman can do know imagine a batman that's willing to kill. Lex Luthor is screwed

#340 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (11836 posts) - - Show Bio

We all know what batman can do know imagine a batman that's willing to kill. Lex Luthor is screwed

you really don't read many comics, do you.....

@lvenger said:

@i_like_swords said:

I read through every page of this thread and came out with a headache.

Look, I don't own any comics featuring Batman nor Luthor, but based on the arguments given in this thread, it's obvious Luthor wins.

It's not about "Batmans more tactical" or "Batman could do this without morals", its about listening to reason. Being biased to a character and refusing to put your hands up and say "okay, you got me" will get you absolutely nowhere.

Let the thread die, and your fanboyism with it.

QFT.

this

#341 Posted by TheBournePoster (575 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days: I guess you missed the part were he told you to let the thread die.

#342 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (11836 posts) - - Show Bio
#343 Edited by Saren (25332 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

I wasn't to familiar with that feat by Luthor, and was actually asking your opinion on if you think Batman has done anything similar. I'm still having trouble discerning details about Luthors feat, or more info about the firestorm matrix. Could you give or link to a quick summary, or just let me know the arc this occurred in?

I think I've pointed out which arc this appeared in and elaborated on the details at least once in this thread already, if not multiple times, and even posted scans of the feat on previous pages, but I will nonetheless repeat myself: it happened at the beginning of the Injustice League arc that took place right after the Lightning Saga crossover. As for more info about the Firestorm Matrix, here's the statement of it being the power of the Big Bang and the force that restarts the universe:

Lex was capable of understanding and making sense of the mechanism behind a metaphysical artifact that is, as Ronnie so eloquently put it, a Ctrl-Alt-Delete button capable of rewriting the entire universe, and then neutralizing said artifact. I'd say that's a pretty major technological achievement beyond most anything Batman's ever done.

Some of Batman's greatest science/engineering feats I think are:

  • Creating Brother Eye

Brother Eye didn't really do much under Batman. All the impressive stuff it ultimately did took place after Earth-3 Alexander Luthor stole it away from Bruce and augmented it with his own coding, making it more capable than it initially was. A lot of the OMAC tech came from Max Lord.

  • Creating technology to hide from Superman

Lex built an entire secret transport system under Metropolis that was designed to be impenetrable to Superman's senses.

  • Designing a synthesized form of Kryptonite

Lex was experimenting with kryptonite before he hit puberty. He's created all forms of synthetic kryptonite. Ask Metallo where all the multi-colored gems embedded in his body came from.

  • Harnessing into Green Lantern corp energy and the Speed Force via the insider suit

Impressive, but manipulating foreign energies is a game Lex can play at. There's this one time he made himself omnipotent by harnessing the energy of a cosmic entity called the Zone Child? Made himself a universal reality warper.

Entropy is literally the most powerful force in the universe; far more powerful than Oan energy or the Speed Force, and Lex just......cancelled entropy. He deleted it from the entire universe. Nothing would ever die, nothing would ever decay or disintegrate unless Lex said so. A bit more impressive than harnessing miniscule portions of Oan energy or Speed Force-lightning.

  • Taking control of the entire Gotham communications system

Why on Earth would this be impressive for people like this?

  • Reverse engineering and controlling various alien technologies not previously encountered

Lazy Sunday afternoon in the Luthor household.

  • Building a device to block Martian telepathy.

That will help if Lex decides to attack him......telepathically.....for some reason......

  • Built a teleporter that teleported him inside Luthor's secret satellite

I'll get to this below. But remind me when this happened.

  • Synthesizing a Lazarus pit

I cannot for the life of me understand how this is more pertinent than blowing up a planet.

So, yes, I think he could put up an interesting challenge to Luthor. I'm not saying Bruce woudl win, I'm saying it wouldn't be a stomp. I think it would be a close fight.

Luthor can be more intelligent and better at science...Bruce is better tactically. Bruce has complete mastery over his mind and body which Luthor lacks, and the man is obsessed as much as a man can be....I think this make up for the intelligence advantage Lex has.

Sorry, but most of this is rather generic, unspecific on exactly how these attributes play a factor and hard to actually comment on.

Batman has infiltrated Lex's secret headquaters, screwed with his plans and technology several times, and Lex hasn't been able to stop him. That should not be discounted.

Yes, and while we're talking about that, let's also talk about the time Lex built a tiny toy robot in his spare time that infiltrated the Batcave, hacked all of Bruce's tech with no effort whatsoever and nearly killed Bruce and Alfred.

Please list these several instances, pretty sure Bruce had help with some of them and at least one was a Lex robot and not the real deal.

Did you upload them, or did someone else? I only saw a scan of Larfleeze attacking Luthor on 1 page, while Luthor seemed to have a shield up.

I uploaded them and I'm honestly a little exasperated considering they're pretty easy to find on this thread, but I'll post them again.

Wow. You're calling my stance ridiculous, but did you even read what you wrote? You''re basically asserting our real world universe and the DCU are equivilent when it comes to technological advancement. Now, that's ridiculous. Yes, in the real world we are only just beginning to understand cloning. In the DCU, that isn't the case. Cloning is advanced enough that a team of scientists can create a new being by splicing human and kryptonian DNA, and then rapidly age it. Do I even have to point out all the other man made tech that exists that we are no where even near, to show the discrepancies in tech levels?

I did, actually. I'm very aware of the level of technological advancement in the DCU. You're just not following my point. Cloning superhumans on the level of even Superboy has been demonstrated to be very hard to do in the DCU, forget about cloning superhumans on the level of a Bizarro or Doomsday. That is very much the case in the DCU. Your Superboy point is wrong from start to finish. Details below.

That just makes Talia look less capable. Damian is but a human. A small team of dedicated scientists was able to create SuperBoy, a Kryptonian/Human halfbreed. I'm pretty sure NOWHERE had less resources than the league. So what's Talia's excuse for not being able to clone a human when a group with less resources do something far more advanced?

Wrong again. Superboy was not created by any of the scientists working at N.O.W.H.E.R.E, he was created by Harvest, a man stated to possess the greatest technological knowledge of the 30th century. Harvest stole the dormant body of Superman and Lois Lane's future son Jon Kent, and then acquired DNA from Clark and Lois in the past and then stitched the three strands of DNA together to create Superboy. Read his origin story in Superboy #19 and then get back to me.

Specifically, pay attention to this moment:

See the part where Harvest states that the creation of Superboy was something that the most advanced science of modern-day DC would need decades to unravel? He's literally stating that cloning superhumans is stupendously hard to do, forget about cloning superhumans by splicing strands of DNA from disparate species together. Given that one of the smartest men from 900 years in the future thinks cloning superhumans is hard, Talia can be forgiven for doing a less-than-stellar job with the Heretic (and the Heretic was superhuman, just a more street level-ish kind of superhuman and not as powerful as someone like Superboy). And a reasonable element of doubt can be cast upon the notion that Batman can do it because it's oh-so-easy. It's not.

And before I forget to bring this up: this is another one of your examples that doesn't work out because it's factually incorrect.

Fair enough. It sounds like PIS to me, although I havent read the arc. Why would Darkseid have trouble understanding something a lesser being created?

I wouldn't call Lex's intellect lesser.

Spaceship is in Superman/Batman. It was also in Batman and Robin in the New 52. There's also a scan of Batman in a small flying saucer craft floating around, although I don't know which issue it is from.

The one in B&R certainly wasn't flying FTL. Cite the issues of SM/BM, I'll check them out. Lex built a spaceship that flew six and a half thousand light-years in a couple of hours. When has Bruce's spaceship done that?

I don't need a more pertinent example. Arguing that Lex can beat Bruce because Lex killed a bunch of Kryptonians by catching them by surprising with a red sun, is a flawed argument. Lex being able to blow up a planet -- all but irrelevant. You're paragraph above listing Lex's scientific feats is far more impressive and helps your argument far more.

The first feat was more to illustrate the lengths Lex will go to. The second feat, I've heard a lot of people telling me it's irrelevant, but no one ever feels like elaborating on why. Lex blows up the planet. Bruce dies. Objective fulfilled. Explain to me how this is irrelevant.

Designing a spaceship indicates a certain level of scientific and engineering prowess. I didn't say designing a spaceship had anything to do with blowing up a planet, I said I think they require a similar amount of skill. Essentially, if you can design a spaceship on your own, you can probably blow up a planet.that Batman would win. I'm simply arguing that I don't think it would be a stomp. I think Bruce could win.

This makes absolutely zero sense by anyone's standards. Explain to me how the techniques and scale involved in building a spaceship lend themselves to blowing up a planet. I cannot think of a fully-formed sentence that makes any less sense than "if you can design a spaceship, you can blow up a planet."

As far as blowing up a planet? Here's where I bring up the Supergirl from Krypton arc. Bruce managed to infiltrate an alien military base on one of the most advanced planets in the galaxy, reverse engineer and reprogram the hellspores and set them to detonate, which would most assuredly have destroyed the planet. It was only by Darkseid agreeing to Batman's terms that this was averted. Given Batman's technical prowess I don't think it is too unlikely that he could return to apokolips and take a hellspore and use it. I see that as at least one plausible way Bruce could destroy a planet.

It's completely implausible given that it is literally impossible to travel to New Genesis or Apokolips without a Mother Box (actually it is, but you'll end up being the size of an ant while everyone and everything else is the size of a skyscraper; weird Fourth World matter-conversion issues). Hence why Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman secured Barda's help in that arc; she was a New God herself and they needed her Mother Box. Bruce does not have a Mother Box, and prep typically does not extend to asking allies for help or equipment. Try again.

Has Lex ever demonstrated suicidal and/or genocidal tendencies?

Killing a planet of Kryptonians would imply genocidal tendencies. Suicidal; considering he can simply leave the planet before the detonation? Lex doesn't need to demonstrate genocidal tendencies anyway; per the OP he's bloodlusted here and thus such options are open. Battle Forum Rules, who can figure 'em?

Please keep in mind, I'm not arguing that Batman would win. I'm simply arguing that I don't think it would be a stomp. I think Bruce could win.

Alright. I'm arguing that if we started comparing and contrasting the wackiest things both of them have done with prep, Lex has feats that make Bruce look like a kid playing scientist.

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#344 Posted by MichaelKai1 (163 posts) - - Show Bio

batman because i remenber he outsmarted braniac before

#345 Posted by dondave (34706 posts) - - Show Bio

batman because i remenber he outsmarted braniac before

So has Lex

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#346 Posted by MichaelKai1 (163 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: but batman can figure out riddlers riddles in seconds so he can figure out how to beat lex in seconds. i'll be back in probally 2 hours

#347 Posted by Lvenger (18496 posts) - - Show Bio

@michaelkai1: ...Are you seriously saying that because Batman can figure out the Riddler's riddles, this means he can figure out how to beat Lex? Wow, just...

#348 Posted by MichaelKai1 (163 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: well yeah batman is preety smart enough to beat lex

#349 Posted by Lvenger (18496 posts) - - Show Bio

@michaelkai1: He's not even in the same category mate. Lex outclasses Bruce in every conventional way.

#350 Posted by Batfan4445 (47 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman wins

If Batman is going for the kill, nobody can stop him