Batman vs Lady Shiva vs Cassie Cain. READ!!!

Cass wins in pure H2H.

He stalemated her before she had any bat-training, and most of their sparring was after she lost her body-reading. Since she got it back, she can beat him. Won't be easy, though.

Cass wins in pure H2H.

If he isn't holding back, Bruce would win.

If he isn't holding back, Bruce would win.

Cassandra Cain at her peak would win.Bruce and Shiva will end up with Bruce winning eventually,however i would like to add that Dragon is a featless character who's reputation is based off retconned stories,KK is from the future so only Sensei and Saars the ageless one are better than Shiva in pure h2h.

@entropy_aegis said:

Cassandra Cain at her peak would win.Bruce and Shiva will end up with Bruce winning eventually,however i would like to add that Dragon is a featless character who's reputation is based off retconned stories,KK is from the future so only Sensei and Saars the ageless one are better than Shiva in pure h2h.

This.

Cassie at hear peak would probably win, she had a long-streak of pulling off ridiculous crap that makes no sense. She has body-reading and can predict what a fighter will do next (Well, Shiva also has it), but she also had ridiculous reaction and movement speed, and in all likeliness, Cassie at her peak wouldn't tagged as much as Batman or Shiva would. Bruce v Shiva, Bruce usually ends up winning, I'm not sure on it though. 
 
But the latest version of Cassie, is NOT PEAK Cassie. She'd lose, her long-streak of good feats went down very quickly and she started to get more losses too. It's a shame the writers just plunged her down. 
 
But for the sake of, PEAK Cassie wins.

@entropy_aegis said:

Cassandra Cain at her peak would win.Bruce and Shiva will end up with Bruce winning eventually,however i would like to add that Dragon is a featless character who's reputation is based off retconned stories,KK is from the future so only Sensei and Saars the ageless one are better than Shiva in pure h2h.

I think Dragon's pre crisis history got retconned back into existence during 52.

Anyone Else? Remember its Bloodlusted peak Bruce not afraid to kill or holding back vs a Primed peak Shiva vs Primed peak Cass.

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

@entropy_aegis said:

Cassandra Cain at her peak would win.Bruce and Shiva will end up with Bruce winning eventually,however i would like to add that Dragon is a featless character who's reputation is based off retconned stories,KK is from the future so only Sensei and Saars the ageless one are better than Shiva in pure h2h.

I think Dragon's pre crisis history got retconned back into existence during 52.

Not sure,his entry in DC encyclopedia mentions things from both his books which is impossible.

Batman knows some many one strike kill moves it's not even funny.

Lady Shiva has been defeated by both Batman and Cassandra at least once.She doesnt have a snowmans chance in hell.

As for Batman and Cassandra,if Cass has access to her body reading powers,its a stalemate.If not, Batman stomps this fight.

Bump. On a recent thread there seems to be some dispute on a Morals off Bruce Defeating Shiva/Cain. My personal vote is Bats with Cain rounding out a close second and Shiva just behind.

Going all out, the winner would be Bruce, followed by Cassie, and then Shiva.

Batman > Cass > Shiva. Let's face it, among popular characters it's rare to have a clean win - especially between heroes, one or the other is ALWAYS mindcontrolled, etc. But Batman has beat Shiva, and never been beaten by her, and was able to disarm her in their fight in the desert before being interrupted. Cass has beaten Shiva, thoguh one could bring up Shiva's specific desire to be killed by her daughter, and also stalemated her. (Personally I think the two are neck and neck.) And Batman has stalemated and beaten Cass, while she has never beaten him. Again, the time he won was before she came under his wing and thus before he taught her anything, but I've seen many people say on the boards that he didn't teach her much and she was already a master at the time. And we are talking no holds barred Batman here. Anyway this is always a good, close fight and it's not a blow out for anyone - in an individual fight between any of the two, either combatant could win. But Batman would take the majority.

@Cochise: Nice post. But the very first time Cass and Batman squared off wasnt even a real fight, nor was she the fighter she became by the end of her series. Back to the original confrontation. Cass didnt believe Batman could defeat David Cain, so when she attacked him she used only David Cain's moves (this is illustrated by the double panel black and whites displaying Cain training Bruce Wayne). Its when Bruce dodges/deflects these attacks (using the same moves he dodged and deflected David Cain's as Bruce Wayne during his training) and strikes out with the pulled back finishing move of David Cain (the throat rip) that Cass understands Batman is capable of taking him down. Through the entire short exchange neither one uses a move that isnt depicted in flashback mirroring panels by David Cain, or defending against David Cain.

@CitizenBane said:

He stalemated her before she had any bat-training, and most of their sparring was after she lost her body-reading. Since she got it back, she can beat him. Won't be easy, though.

agreed

Cassandra cain.

Batman wins if he takes this seriously.

Meh! i am going with Lady Shiva :)

Based on everything that's in the op I am unsure about who wins. My guess would have to be Shiva though.

Batman wouldn't win because he's not well versed as a killer and most of his H2H combat knowledge of killing moves is on how to dodge and block rather than properly execute. Cassandra Cain is a better killer than Batman, if you count her whole drug thing, but has managed to pull out a draw with Shiva. I think Shiva would win just by having the most experience in killing techniques.

Batman knows how to kill and can do so just as easily as Shiva. He chooses not to - it's one of the things that makes him Batman. And even with rhise restrictions he puts on himself, he edges her out in a fight. Now if we remove those restrictions? And he's not holding back? Fuhgeddaboudit.

@Cochise said:

Batman knows how to kill and can do so just as easily as Shiva. He chooses not to - it's one of the things that makes him Batman. And even with rhise restrictions he puts on himself, he edges her out in a fight. Now if we remove those restrictions? And he's not holding back? Fuhgeddaboudit.

While I agree, didn't Shiva teach Bruce the Leopard Blow? Only 3 people including Bruce knew it until supposedly Tim learned.

@Supermanwithatan01 said:

While I agree, didn't Shiva teach Bruce the Leopard Blow?

No. She tried to and he wouldnt let her cause its a killing blow. He taught himself a modified non killing version of the attack.

Not sure how anyone can say Batman can kill as easily as Shiva having never proven the ability to do so....

Edit: <------This is Gambler. Just pointing it out so there is no claim that I'm trying to support me own argument with two accounts.

Because of years of narration that support him being that dangerous ("I know eight different ways to kill from this position", etc.), having trained with the world's best killers, recognizing esoteric killing techniques just by looking at the victim's body (and being a master H2H fighter himself), knowing how to defend against said techniques, being able to modify such techniques so that they are not lethal, and so on. I think on the contrary it's a bit off to say despite his insane level of H2H skills that he somehow is bad at killing, just because his character took an oath to not kill. Cass has only killed one person (well two if you count Shiva's temporary death) but I've never heard anyone say she'd be bad at killing.

@Black Coda said:

@Supermanwithatan01 said:

While I agree, didn't Shiva teach Bruce the Leopard Blow?

No. She tried to and he wouldnt let her cause its a killing blow. He taught himself a modified non killing version of the attack.

Not sure how anyone can say Batman can kill as easily as Shiva having never proven the ability to do so....

Edit: <------This is Gambler. Just pointing it out so there is no claim that I'm trying to support me own argument with two accounts.

Who's that in your avy?

Cassie.

Batman mainly because he holds back more than the others.

@Killemall said:

Meh! i am going with Lady Shiva :)

me too

@Cochise said:

Because of years of narration that support him being that dangerous ("I know eight different ways to kill from this position", etc.), having trained with the world's best killers, recognizing esoteric killing techniques just by looking at the victim's body (and being a master H2H fighter himself), knowing how to defend against said techniques, being able to modify such techniques so that they are not lethal, and so on. I think on the contrary it's a bit off to say despite his insane level of H2H skills that he somehow is bad at killing, just because his character took an oath to not kill. Cass has only killed one person (well two if you count Shiva's temporary death) but I've never heard anyone say she'd be bad at killing.

Good points, but, Cass has killed more then, "One person." She killed the fat gangsta, Lynx, Shiva, and that one chick (think she was from the Teen Titans) while she was under the influence of Deathstroke's serum. She tried to kill Supergirl and would have if not for some random back spike mutated ability. She shout David Cain point blank with the intention of ending his life (though he somehow survived). As member of the Justice League Elite she killed like 3 randoms as Kasumi. I also never said Batman would be bad at killing, just that I dont see how all the sudden he can flip a switch and kill as proficiently as Lady Shiva. Her attacks are already geared towards killing, she doesnt need to consciously alter anything. Her strikes have been repeated over and over. Its muscle memory at this point. Batman's strikes have been modified for non-lethal force meaning he'd have to alter em yet again, only during the heat of battle. A piece of his thought process would have to be devoted to fighting against the familiarity of throwing non-killing attacks. Alterations to the right or left, an inch higher or lower, targeting the side of the neck with an attack he's been trained to use on the shoulder. I just dont agree that someone who, "Knows a technique but never uses it" can simply flip a switch and utilize it on the same level as someone who, "Actually uses said technique everyday/battle."

@Black Coda: Good points but Lynx was an accident; Cass didn't intend for her to die, as I recall Lynx was beheaded by her henchman while fighting with Cass and Cass was shocked. And shooting David Cain doesn't prove someone has experience with H2H killing techniques. I didn't know about the people she killed in Justice League: Elite though. Regarding Batman, I don't think Batman would be able to defend himself against people like Shiva unless he knew these same killing techniques very, very well - and he does use such defenses on a daily basis. The guy is one of the most highly trained H2H combatants in DC, and has trained with the best. The idea that he wouldn't know how to kill someone seems odd.

@Cochise: I know which instance you are referring to (in regards to the beheading), but I'm talking about after the Second Crisis. Cass briefly assumed the role as leader of the League of Assassins and kills Lynx, dresses her up like Batgirl, and frames Robin for it. And I agree, I'm sure Batman knows plenty of killing techniques as well as how to defend against them. But so does Shiva. Knowing them and defending them doesn't automatically vault him to her level of killing expertise though. The fact that it was Shiva who introduced him to the infamous Leopard Paw death strike to began with shows that there is at least one example of a killing move he had not studied or heard of that she had.

Again, I'm not saying Batman doesnt know how to kill. I'm saying he hasnt shown the ability to do so on Lady Shiva's level. I agree he's one of, if not thee, most highly trained H2H combatants in the DCU. But Shiva is one of, if not thee, greatest martial arts killing machine in the DCU. Its all she does is look for top level fighters to kill. Call me fanboyish but I just cant bring myself to agree that a person that never kills can flip a switch and be as prolific as someone who all they do is death deal.

@Black Coda: So would you say Shiva and Cass are at a disadvantage when they are fighting and trying not to kill their opponent, since they were trained to kill?

@Cochise said:

@Black Coda: So would you say Shiva and Cass are at a disadvantage when they are fighting and trying not to kill their opponent, since they were trained to kill?

Well, Cass did accidentally kill Shadow Thief without trying. She was able to revive him but it does show that it takes alot of effort and concentration (or did) for Cass to fight and "not" kill her opponent.

Bump, the consensus seems to be Morals off Bruce over Cass. Shiva falling in last.

I would like to note (about Cassie accidentally killing Shadow Theif) that I believe it is a testament to the overall skill and prowess of Bruce's h2h skill. He has to fight and not kill someone who tries to kill him on a reuse basis. Clearly most of Batmans enemies h2h want him dead while he just renders them incapacitated. Controlling himself mentally and physically even when they deserve to die is a powerful statement. I feel that it's necessary to take this into consideration. Also I saw about Batman defeating Wonder Woman being PIS, this is incorrect. Bruce defeated her skill-wise so she resorted to brute force after being outmatched and once more Bats defeated her with calculated nerve strikes knowing he couldn't go blow for blow. Just wanted to clear that up.

the better martial artist is this group is debatable, but bruce and cass have both beaten shiva fairly. Even if cass is a better MA bruce's intellienge and durbability makes up for it it.

Cassie

my girl wins

cassie wins :)

it's very very close, but she's just more skiled than shiva, and bruce is bellow them in pure h2h skill, but not by much

Bruce has this without any morals. He has the better track record against them. This isn't just a question of pure skill, in terms of pure skill Shiva has this. But in a fight pure skill isn't the be all or end all. Knowledge of opponent goes to Bruce. Experience goes to Bruce. And he isn't far behind Shiva in skill and he is definitely above Cass in skill. They however have zero experience with a batman out to kill.

My girl Cass got this!

BATGOD WINS!

PRAISE BE TO OUR LORD AND SAVIOR!!!!