#1 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3688 posts) - - Show Bio

It is generally accepted that Batman with his gadgets would win the majority is 1v1s with these 2. However I've seen a lot of arguements from Batman fanboys (and girls), Cassandra fanboys(and girls), and Shiva fanboys that their respective fighter wins H2H.  
 
Effectively (Corrrect me with sound evidence if I am wrong) but Cassandra has never defeated Bruce once, they've had drag out fight, training, and the one across the city and he's beaten her before and they've tied while he was working on a plan. (It's Bruce he doesnt kill). 
 
Secondly Shiva behind Karate Kid and Maybe Dragon or Sensei (or both) is the best fighter in DC because she goes ALL out and doesn't heisitate on the kill. She's defeated Cassie before and the 2nd fight Cassie defeated her (though I hear there are special circumstances) 
 
Finally Bruce and Shiva have faught on equal ground, to a stalemate before Robin (Jason Todd) stepped in to tip the scale in Bruces favor. Fanboys argue for Bruce winning and people SOOO ademantly against Bats argue against him saying he's not as good. But theres only been hearsay proof since Shiva has never beaten Bats and vice verca (true win). Bruce has done a LOT of talking about Cass and Shiva and its gone both ways with him saying "even I haven't defeated Shiva" as well as stating he wonders who'd win a fight between the 2. Bruce also never compliments himself if you follow.
 
SOOOOOO 
 
Many of the threads I go to insist Batman would move up to > Shiva and Cain IF he'd finally give it all. Go for the kill (as he only has once in his tenure as the Bats), Ik he is one of 4 (used to be 3 but I hear Tim Drake knows it) that knows the Leopard Blow and Bats speed is typically underrated because of most of his mind games and patience in fighting. So if Batman is Bloodlusted because Shiva and Cassandra killed DICK, DAMIAN AND TIM (which you know they actually didn't but for the fights sake...) would he Kill these 2?  
 
All 1 v 1 fights round robin. Who wins?? Also on a sidenote... will Tim Drake eventually surpass all 3? Lady Shiva trained him and stated he is a fighting prodigy. She said something to the degree of a prodigal future or something. Seen the scan don't have it? what do you all think?  
 
please read all and try to keep the fanboyism at a LOW.  
 
 
#2 Edited by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

Cass wins in pure H2H.

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#3 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3688 posts) - - Show Bio
@CitizenBane
Okay... why? and did you read the OP?
#4 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

He stalemated her before she had any bat-training, and most of their sparring was after she lost her body-reading. Since she got it back, she can beat him. Won't be easy, though.

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#5 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@CitizenBane said:
Cass wins in pure H2H.
*Makes contemplative face*
 
Cass is no doubt one of the most deadly human combatants in the DC Universe; there's no denying that. However, if Bruce stripped off his morals and went into a fight with the sole intention of murdering his opposition, you have to wonder what would happen. It's a shame there are no feats of Bruce absolutely losing it and trying to kill someone (I mean, he's gone nuts against Penguin and Joker, but they're hardly competition). 
 
Shiva isn't really a factor in my opinion. I feel she gets talked up a bit too much - and this is based on some interesting scans I've seen. Twice she's been beaten by Tim Drake (albeit one he poisoned her) and she's apparently not aware of her surroundings enough to cop a chair to the back of the head (could be WIS as it was during Hush, but still). 
 
Overall, I'd give this to Bruce if he's not holding back. He helped train Cass (yes, I'm aware she knew how to fight long before she met him) but if Bruce has encountered so many different styles over so many bouts - how do you stop him?
#6 Posted by TheBatman586 (6316 posts) - - Show Bio

If he isn't holding back, Bruce would win.

#7 Posted by demifiend (3575 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheBatman586 said:
If he isn't holding back, Bruce would win.
agree.  cassie is really really good. but bat is not joke
#8 Posted by entropy_aegis (15317 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassandra Cain at her peak would win.Bruce and Shiva will end up with Bruce winning eventually,however i would like to add that Dragon is a featless character who's reputation is based off retconned stories,KK is from the future so only Sensei and Saars the ageless one are better than Shiva in pure h2h.

#9 Posted by nightwing91 (3912 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

Cassandra Cain at her peak would win.Bruce and Shiva will end up with Bruce winning eventually,however i would like to add that Dragon is a featless character who's reputation is based off retconned stories,KK is from the future so only Sensei and Saars the ageless one are better than Shiva in pure h2h.

This.

#10 Posted by Frozen (13241 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassie at hear peak would probably win, she had a long-streak of pulling off ridiculous crap that makes no sense. She has body-reading and can predict what a fighter will do next (Well, Shiva also has it), but she also had ridiculous reaction and movement speed, and in all likeliness, Cassie at her peak wouldn't tagged as much as Batman or Shiva would. Bruce v Shiva, Bruce usually ends up winning, I'm not sure on it though. 
 
But the latest version of Cassie, is NOT PEAK Cassie. She'd lose, her long-streak of good feats went down very quickly and she started to get more losses too. It's a shame the writers just plunged her down. 
 
But for the sake of, PEAK Cassie wins.

#11 Posted by Dex_Starr (4772 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

Cassandra Cain at her peak would win.Bruce and Shiva will end up with Bruce winning eventually,however i would like to add that Dragon is a featless character who's reputation is based off retconned stories,KK is from the future so only Sensei and Saars the ageless one are better than Shiva in pure h2h.

I think Dragon's pre crisis history got retconned back into existence during 52.

#12 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3688 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyone Else? Remember its Bloodlusted peak Bruce not afraid to kill or holding back vs a Primed peak Shiva vs Primed peak Cass.

#13 Posted by entropy_aegis (15317 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

@entropy_aegis said:

Cassandra Cain at her peak would win.Bruce and Shiva will end up with Bruce winning eventually,however i would like to add that Dragon is a featless character who's reputation is based off retconned stories,KK is from the future so only Sensei and Saars the ageless one are better than Shiva in pure h2h.

I think Dragon's pre crisis history got retconned back into existence during 52.

Not sure,his entry in DC encyclopedia mentions things from both his books which is impossible.

#14 Posted by vuviper (5531 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman knows some many one strike kill moves it's not even funny.

#15 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

Lady Shiva has been defeated by both Batman and Cassandra at least once.She doesnt have a snowmans chance in hell.

As for Batman and Cassandra,if Cass has access to her body reading powers,its a stalemate.If not, Batman stomps this fight.

#16 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3688 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump. On a recent thread there seems to be some dispute on a Morals off Bruce Defeating Shiva/Cain. My personal vote is Bats with Cain rounding out a close second and Shiva just behind.

#17 Posted by ImmortalOne (3448 posts) - - Show Bio

Going all out, the winner would be Bruce, followed by Cassie, and then Shiva.

#18 Posted by Cochise (707 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman > Cass > Shiva. Let's face it, among popular characters it's rare to have a clean win - especially between heroes, one or the other is ALWAYS mindcontrolled, etc. But Batman has beat Shiva, and never been beaten by her, and was able to disarm her in their fight in the desert before being interrupted. Cass has beaten Shiva, thoguh one could bring up Shiva's specific desire to be killed by her daughter, and also stalemated her. (Personally I think the two are neck and neck.) And Batman has stalemated and beaten Cass, while she has never beaten him. Again, the time he won was before she came under his wing and thus before he taught her anything, but I've seen many people say on the boards that he didn't teach her much and she was already a master at the time. And we are talking no holds barred Batman here. Anyway this is always a good, close fight and it's not a blow out for anyone - in an individual fight between any of the two, either combatant could win. But Batman would take the majority.

#19 Edited by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cochise: Nice post. But the very first time Cass and Batman squared off wasnt even a real fight, nor was she the fighter she became by the end of her series. Back to the original confrontation. Cass didnt believe Batman could defeat David Cain, so when she attacked him she used only David Cain's moves (this is illustrated by the double panel black and whites displaying Cain training Bruce Wayne). Its when Bruce dodges/deflects these attacks (using the same moves he dodged and deflected David Cain's as Bruce Wayne during his training) and strikes out with the pulled back finishing move of David Cain (the throat rip) that Cass understands Batman is capable of taking him down. Through the entire short exchange neither one uses a move that isnt depicted in flashback mirroring panels by David Cain, or defending against David Cain.

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#20 Posted by darktiger (4556 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

He stalemated her before she had any bat-training, and most of their sparring was after she lost her body-reading. Since she got it back, she can beat him. Won't be easy, though.

agreed

#21 Posted by jashro44 (21677 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassandra cain.

#22 Edited by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman wins if he takes this seriously.

#23 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

Meh! i am going with Lady Shiva :)

#24 Posted by cascadeking09 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

Based on everything that's in the op I am unsure about who wins. My guess would have to be Shiva though.

#25 Posted by Park (2976 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman wouldn't win because he's not well versed as a killer and most of his H2H combat knowledge of killing moves is on how to dodge and block rather than properly execute. Cassandra Cain is a better killer than Batman, if you count her whole drug thing, but has managed to pull out a draw with Shiva. I think Shiva would win just by having the most experience in killing techniques.

#26 Posted by Cochise (707 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman knows how to kill and can do so just as easily as Shiva. He chooses not to - it's one of the things that makes him Batman. And even with rhise restrictions he puts on himself, he edges her out in a fight. Now if we remove those restrictions? And he's not holding back? Fuhgeddaboudit.

#27 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3688 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cochise said:

Batman knows how to kill and can do so just as easily as Shiva. He chooses not to - it's one of the things that makes him Batman. And even with rhise restrictions he puts on himself, he edges her out in a fight. Now if we remove those restrictions? And he's not holding back? Fuhgeddaboudit.

While I agree, didn't Shiva teach Bruce the Leopard Blow? Only 3 people including Bruce knew it until supposedly Tim learned.

#28 Edited by Black Coda (27 posts) - - Show Bio

@Supermanwithatan01 said:

While I agree, didn't Shiva teach Bruce the Leopard Blow?

No. She tried to and he wouldnt let her cause its a killing blow. He taught himself a modified non killing version of the attack.

Not sure how anyone can say Batman can kill as easily as Shiva having never proven the ability to do so....

Edit: <------This is Gambler. Just pointing it out so there is no claim that I'm trying to support me own argument with two accounts.

#29 Posted by Cochise (707 posts) - - Show Bio

Because of years of narration that support him being that dangerous ("I know eight different ways to kill from this position", etc.), having trained with the world's best killers, recognizing esoteric killing techniques just by looking at the victim's body (and being a master H2H fighter himself), knowing how to defend against said techniques, being able to modify such techniques so that they are not lethal, and so on. I think on the contrary it's a bit off to say despite his insane level of H2H skills that he somehow is bad at killing, just because his character took an oath to not kill. Cass has only killed one person (well two if you count Shiva's temporary death) but I've never heard anyone say she'd be bad at killing.

#30 Posted by cascadeking09 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@Black Coda said:

@Supermanwithatan01 said:

While I agree, didn't Shiva teach Bruce the Leopard Blow?

No. She tried to and he wouldnt let her cause its a killing blow. He taught himself a modified non killing version of the attack.

Not sure how anyone can say Batman can kill as easily as Shiva having never proven the ability to do so....

Edit: <------This is Gambler. Just pointing it out so there is no claim that I'm trying to support me own argument with two accounts.

Who's that in your avy?

#31 Posted by JediXMan (30608 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassie.

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#32 Posted by agentxx (2533 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman mainly because he holds back more than the others.

#33 Posted by grimlock (1571 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

Meh! i am going with Lady Shiva :)

me too

#34 Edited by Black Coda (27 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cochise said:

Because of years of narration that support him being that dangerous ("I know eight different ways to kill from this position", etc.), having trained with the world's best killers, recognizing esoteric killing techniques just by looking at the victim's body (and being a master H2H fighter himself), knowing how to defend against said techniques, being able to modify such techniques so that they are not lethal, and so on. I think on the contrary it's a bit off to say despite his insane level of H2H skills that he somehow is bad at killing, just because his character took an oath to not kill. Cass has only killed one person (well two if you count Shiva's temporary death) but I've never heard anyone say she'd be bad at killing.

Good points, but, Cass has killed more then, "One person." She killed the fat gangsta, Lynx, Shiva, and that one chick (think she was from the Teen Titans) while she was under the influence of Deathstroke's serum. She tried to kill Supergirl and would have if not for some random back spike mutated ability. She shout David Cain point blank with the intention of ending his life (though he somehow survived). As member of the Justice League Elite she killed like 3 randoms as Kasumi. I also never said Batman would be bad at killing, just that I dont see how all the sudden he can flip a switch and kill as proficiently as Lady Shiva. Her attacks are already geared towards killing, she doesnt need to consciously alter anything. Her strikes have been repeated over and over. Its muscle memory at this point. Batman's strikes have been modified for non-lethal force meaning he'd have to alter em yet again, only during the heat of battle. A piece of his thought process would have to be devoted to fighting against the familiarity of throwing non-killing attacks. Alterations to the right or left, an inch higher or lower, targeting the side of the neck with an attack he's been trained to use on the shoulder. I just dont agree that someone who, "Knows a technique but never uses it" can simply flip a switch and utilize it on the same level as someone who, "Actually uses said technique everyday/battle."

#35 Edited by Cochise (707 posts) - - Show Bio

@Black Coda: Good points but Lynx was an accident; Cass didn't intend for her to die, as I recall Lynx was beheaded by her henchman while fighting with Cass and Cass was shocked. And shooting David Cain doesn't prove someone has experience with H2H killing techniques. I didn't know about the people she killed in Justice League: Elite though. Regarding Batman, I don't think Batman would be able to defend himself against people like Shiva unless he knew these same killing techniques very, very well - and he does use such defenses on a daily basis. The guy is one of the most highly trained H2H combatants in DC, and has trained with the best. The idea that he wouldn't know how to kill someone seems odd.

#36 Posted by Black Coda (27 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cochise: I know which instance you are referring to (in regards to the beheading), but I'm talking about after the Second Crisis. Cass briefly assumed the role as leader of the League of Assassins and kills Lynx, dresses her up like Batgirl, and frames Robin for it. And I agree, I'm sure Batman knows plenty of killing techniques as well as how to defend against them. But so does Shiva. Knowing them and defending them doesn't automatically vault him to her level of killing expertise though. The fact that it was Shiva who introduced him to the infamous Leopard Paw death strike to began with shows that there is at least one example of a killing move he had not studied or heard of that she had.

Again, I'm not saying Batman doesnt know how to kill. I'm saying he hasnt shown the ability to do so on Lady Shiva's level. I agree he's one of, if not thee, most highly trained H2H combatants in the DCU. But Shiva is one of, if not thee, greatest martial arts killing machine in the DCU. Its all she does is look for top level fighters to kill. Call me fanboyish but I just cant bring myself to agree that a person that never kills can flip a switch and be as prolific as someone who all they do is death deal.

#37 Posted by Cochise (707 posts) - - Show Bio

@Black Coda: So would you say Shiva and Cass are at a disadvantage when they are fighting and trying not to kill their opponent, since they were trained to kill?

#38 Posted by The_MVPs (84693 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cochise said:

@Black Coda: So would you say Shiva and Cass are at a disadvantage when they are fighting and trying not to kill their opponent, since they were trained to kill?

Well, Cass did accidentally kill Shadow Thief without trying. She was able to revive him but it does show that it takes alot of effort and concentration (or did) for Cass to fight and "not" kill her opponent.

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#39 Edited by Supermanwithatan01 (3688 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump, the consensus seems to be Morals off Bruce over Cass. Shiva falling in last.

I would like to note (about Cassie accidentally killing Shadow Theif) that I believe it is a testament to the overall skill and prowess of Bruce's h2h skill. He has to fight and not kill someone who tries to kill him on a reuse basis. Clearly most of Batmans enemies h2h want him dead while he just renders them incapacitated. Controlling himself mentally and physically even when they deserve to die is a powerful statement. I feel that it's necessary to take this into consideration. Also I saw about Batman defeating Wonder Woman being PIS, this is incorrect. Bruce defeated her skill-wise so she resorted to brute force after being outmatched and once more Bats defeated her with calculated nerve strikes knowing he couldn't go blow for blow. Just wanted to clear that up.

#40 Posted by Jayc1324 (12215 posts) - - Show Bio

the better martial artist is this group is debatable, but bruce and cass have both beaten shiva fairly. Even if cass is a better MA bruce's intellienge and durbability makes up for it it.

#41 Edited by dondave (37409 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassie

#42 Posted by Erick_Williams (758 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane

said:

Cass wins in pure H2H.

*Makes contemplative face*

Cass is no doubt one of the most deadly human combatants in the DC Universe; there's no denying that. However, if Bruce stripped off his morals and went into a fight with the

sole

intention of murdering his opposition, you have to wonder what would happen. It's a shame there are no feats of Bruce absolutely

losing

it and trying to kill someone (I mean, he's gone nuts against Penguin and Joker, but they're

hardly

competition).

Shiva isn't really a factor in my opinion. I feel she gets talked up a bit too much - and this is based on some interesting scans I've seen. Twice she's been beaten by Tim Drake (albeit one he poisoned her) and she's apparently not aware of her surroundings enough to cop a chair to the back of the head (could be WIS as it

was

during Hush, but still).

Overall, I'd give this to Bruce if he's not holding back. He helped train Cass (yes, I'm aware she knew how to fight long before she met him) but if Bruce has encountered

#44 Edited by Cara_Hunter (3687 posts) - - Show Bio
#45 Posted by Bat_Girl_CC (2365 posts) - - Show Bio

my girl wins

cassie wins :)

it's very very close, but she's just more skiled than shiva, and bruce is bellow them in pure h2h skill, but not by much

#46 Posted by Cerberus369616 (769 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce has this without any morals. He has the better track record against them. This isn't just a question of pure skill, in terms of pure skill Shiva has this. But in a fight pure skill isn't the be all or end all. Knowledge of opponent goes to Bruce. Experience goes to Bruce. And he isn't far behind Shiva in skill and he is definitely above Cass in skill. They however have zero experience with a batman out to kill.

#47 Posted by MonsterStomp (17928 posts) - - Show Bio

My girl Cass got this!