1)First of all, Batman has done better against Slade anyway
No he hasn't. He never took the upper hand on deathstroke in a straight up fight. Cass has actually done that in the scans I posted.
At least Batman has beaten him once(maybe twice) and I remember it really well.
He beat him once however in the same issue he was curbstomped by deathstroke twice. Yes it shows batman can beat deathstroke but it also shows Slade is his better. He knocked Slade out another time with a cheap shot from behind while Slade wasn't paying attention. The current standings between deathstroke and batman is 3-1 in deathstrokes favor. Here are the scans of the fight you are referring to:
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Batman kicks Slade by surprise and then on the 3rd page deathstroke states "Your last free shot batman" indicating he let batman hit him. Slade then proceeds to beat him down quickly and without much trouble....
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While deathstroke is trying to shoot his target batman uses stealth and gets the drop on slade he does hit him a few times and manages to hurt him but Slade beats batman again quite quickly.
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Batman finally beats Slade...But this was after Deathstroke pretty much stomped him twice.
Am I saying batman can't beat deathstroke? No. Batman can win a few but at the end of the day Slade has more wins on batman. So I wouldn't say getting stomped by Slade twice and then bating him a 3rd time compares to stalemating deathstroke in multiple showings when cass is at a disadvantage with her body reading not working on slade.
Cassandra has never beaten Slade.Their fights are interrupted or stalemates and I still haven't seen him going all out on her like he did with Batman when he realized he was going to lose.....
Go all out? There first fight which was decades ago maybe but there second battle which you brought up trying to prove batman has beaten slade, Deathstroke was focusing on his job as opposed to fighting batman. Comparatively Slade when to such lengths as to try and shoot cass and blow up the building to kill her. He has never attempted that with batman....
The body reading ability is another story.Cassandra without her body reading abilities lost to Nightwing,Tim Drake and also Batman.I also recall the Joker giving her a rough one.
I would appreciate issue references or scans of when nightwing and tim defeated cassandra cain. It doesn't really mater what happened without her body reading technique though. She has it here. And also you aren't mentioning that after she got her body reading ability back batman couldn't touch her in there next spar.
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She almost makes it look easy....
2)Well,you think Cassandra is just going to bleetz him like that?Even a very young Bart Allen wasn't able to do this,if you want to consider feats.....Anyway IMO both feats are PIS feats since human people cannot do that.
I don't think she will blitz him in the sense that batman wont even see him. I believe she will dodge and counter his attacks due to her suepioer speed and skill. She is harder to hit so I don't think she will be getting hit as much as batman would due to her speed and skill. The speed advantage is by a fair margin.
As for tagging flashes this feat only works if it is stated on panel or we have some indication of how fast flash was moving according to the battle forum rules. So I don't think it proves much. We all know bart is fast enough to blitz batman. IIRC he blitzed super boy prime. There is no way batman is as fast as super boy prime.
As for the feats being pis the thing is with cassandra cain its consistent. And in battle forums we go by consistency. Cass's feats are nonsense but there consistent nonsense so you can't really say those feats are PIS.
3)I get your point.....Batman has also been able to do this..
Batman is clearly dodging the bullets after they are fired.
I am not so sure about that but even if he is that doesn't make him faster then cass. Cassandra cain can side step bullets after they are fired and dodge bullets while standing in the same spot.
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And thing is everything I have posted so far has been either her blitzing and her dodging an attack after it is fired/thrown. None of it takes into account her body reading which may as well be considered precognition. She is going to know all of batmans moves.
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Shrike is on the ground, he isn't even in a fighting stance and she all ready knows his next move before he even thinks it....
4)Well IMO catching up with a speeding car is an impressive feat as a very small number of people can do.
Not as impressive as out pacing a bullet....
5)I can post Batman bullet dodging scans all day,if you want.I need to find some scans of new 52 young Bruce beating a whole bikers gang before they could even drop on the floor.Give me a while.....
I think your confused with the point of the I uploaded 9 months and 20 days ago. I didn't upload it because cass dodged a bullet. Everyone does that. I agree that wouldn't be impressive. But Cass basically out ran a bullet...
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Here are the scans so you can see the full thing again. Notice how the gun man is behind the guy in the white shirt and cass is in front of the guy in the white shirt. He fires the gun and cass hasn't closed in on him....She manages to punch the gun man and the bullet still hasn't reached the place where she was standing....
I haven't seen batman do that before....
As for the scans of batman beating up some bikers before the first one hit the ground if you can't get scans issue references could work.
6) Why did you brought up that PIS Darkseid crap anyway??We are arguing real sh!t here!:P(LOL sounded tough....:P)
Well I brought it up because its not PIS. Its just out of context. Darkseid was depowered but the batman capability site doesn't mention this. You really have to be careful with what you take from that site. They have been known to post scans from batman odyssey which isn't even canon for another example.
I really can't see anything Bruce not doing anything Cass has ever done ,man.
I can.
I strongly believe Batman has a small majority due to vast strength and durability over her.Now about their speed,I think they are on the same level or Cass is slightly faster.
I think it would be a good fight but he isn't taking a majority IMHO. She is faster by a fair amount and then there is the body reading technique.
And I need you to define what you mean by durability. If you mean his cowl then sure (all though I think she can bypass that with pressure points), but if you mean pain tolerance then I actually think thats debatable.
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Takes 4 bullets without even flinching....David Cain use to shoot her in the back as apart of her training....
I just feel Cass's body reading, speed, and skill will give her the win. Batman can give her a good fight....But I don't see him taking a majority.
It has been said that bats has been trained in every martial art in the world so I would imagine that that would give him an advantage over Cass though according to the site wiki on her she has been trained in by Bronze Tiger and the likes so yeah.
She has the ability to replicate martial arts. She has stolen a move from shadow thief (I think it was shadow thief I could be wrong) and bronze tiger. She can copy any one of his styles sort of like taskmaster only more serious.
1)First of all, Batman has done better against Slade anyway
No he hasn't. He never took the upper hand on deathstroke in a straight up fight. Cass has actually done that in the scans I posted.
At least Batman has beaten him once(maybe twice) and I remember it really well.
He beat him once however in the same issue he was curbstomped by deathstroke twice. Yes it shows batman can beat deathstroke but it also shows Slade is his better. He knocked Slade out another time with a cheap shot from behind while Slade wasn't paying attention. The current standings between deathstroke and batman is 3-1 in deathstrokes favor. Here are the scans of the fight you are referring to:
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Batman kicks Slade by surprise and then on the 3rd page deathstroke states "Your last free shot batman" indicating he let batman hit him. Slade then proceeds to beat him down quickly and without much trouble....
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While deathstroke is trying to shoot his target batman uses stealth and gets the drop on slade he does hit him a few times and manages to hurt him but Slade beats batman again quite quickly.
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Batman finally beats Slade...But this was after Deathstroke pretty much stomped him twice.
Am I saying batman can't beat deathstroke? No. Batman can win a few but at the end of the day Slade has more wins on batman. So I wouldn't say getting stomped by Slade twice and then bating him a 3rd time compares to stalemating deathstroke in multiple showings when cass is at a disadvantage with her body reading not working on slade.
Cassandra has never beaten Slade.Their fights are interrupted or stalemates and I still haven't seen him going all out on her like he did with Batman when he realized he was going to lose.....
Go all out? There first fight which was decades ago maybe but there second battle which you brought up trying to prove batman has beaten slade, Deathstroke was focusing on his job as opposed to fighting batman. Comparatively Slade when to such lengths as to try and shoot cass and blow up the building to kill her. He has never attempted that with batman....
The body reading ability is another story.Cassandra without her body reading abilities lost to Nightwing,Tim Drake and also Batman.I also recall the Joker giving her a rough one.
I would appreciate issue references or scans of when nightwing and tim defeated cassandra cain. It doesn't really mater what happened without her body reading technique though. She has it here. And also you aren't mentioning that after she got her body reading ability back batman couldn't touch her in there next spar.
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She almost makes it look easy....
2)Well,you think Cassandra is just going to bleetz him like that?Even a very young Bart Allen wasn't able to do this,if you want to consider feats.....Anyway IMO both feats are PIS feats since human people cannot do that.
I don't think she will blitz him in the sense that batman wont even see him. I believe she will dodge and counter his attacks due to her suepioer speed and skill. She is harder to hit so I don't think she will be getting hit as much as batman would due to her speed and skill. The speed advantage is by a fair margin.
As for tagging flashes this feat only works if it is stated on panel or we have some indication of how fast flash was moving according to the battle forum rules. So I don't think it proves much. We all know bart is fast enough to blitz batman. IIRC he blitzed super boy prime. There is no way batman is as fast as super boy prime.
As for the feats being pis the thing is with cassandra cain its consistent. And in battle forums we go by consistency. Cass's feats are nonsense but there consistent nonsense so you can't really say those feats are PIS.
3)I get your point.....Batman has also been able to do this..
Batman is clearly dodging the bullets after they are fired.
I am not so sure about that but even if he is that doesn't make him faster then cass. Cassandra cain can side step bullets after they are fired and dodge bullets while standing in the same spot.
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And thing is everything I have posted so far has been either her blitzing and her dodging an attack after it is fired/thrown. None of it takes into account her body reading which may as well be considered precognition. She is going to know all of batmans moves.
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Shrike is on the ground, he isn't even in a fighting stance and she all ready knows his next move before he even thinks it....
4)Well IMO catching up with a speeding car is an impressive feat as a very small number of people can do.
Not as impressive as out pacing a bullet....
5)I can post Batman bullet dodging scans all day,if you want.I need to find some scans of new 52 young Bruce beating a whole bikers gang before they could even drop on the floor.Give me a while.....
I think your confused with the point of the I uploaded 9 months and 20 days ago. I didn't upload it because cass dodged a bullet. Everyone does that. I agree that wouldn't be impressive. But Cass basically out ran a bullet...
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Here are the scans so you can see the full thing again. Notice how the gun man is behind the guy in the white shirt and cass is in front of the guy in the white shirt. He fires the gun and cass hasn't closed in on him....She manages to punch the gun man and the bullet still hasn't reached the place where she was standing....
I haven't seen batman do that before....
As for the scans of batman beating up some bikers before the first one hit the ground if you can't get scans issue references could work.
6) Why did you brought up that PIS Darkseid crap anyway??We are arguing real sh!t here!:P(LOL sounded tough....:P)
Well I brought it up because its not PIS. Its just out of context. Darkseid was depowered but the batman capability site doesn't mention this. You really have to be careful with what you take from that site. They have been known to post scans from batman odyssey which isn't even canon for another example.
I really can't see anything Bruce not doing anything Cass has ever done ,man.
I can.
I strongly believe Batman has a small majority due to vast strength and durability over her.Now about their speed,I think they are on the same level or Cass is slightly faster.
I think it would be a good fight but he isn't taking a majority IMHO. She is faster by a fair amount and then there is the body reading technique.
And I need you to define what you mean by durability. If you mean his cowl then sure (all though I think she can bypass that with pressure points), but if you mean pain tolerance then I actually think thats debatable.
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Takes 4 bullets without even flinching....David Cain use to shoot her in the back as apart of her training....
I just feel Cass's body reading, speed, and skill will give her the win. Batman can give her a good fight....But I don't see him taking a majority.
It has been said that bats has been trained in every martial art in the world so I would imagine that that would give him an advantage over Cass though according to the site wiki on her she has been trained in by Bronze Tiger and the likes so yeah.
She has the ability to replicate martial arts. She has stolen a move from shadow thief (I think it was shadow thief I could be wrong) and bronze tiger. She can copy any one of his styles sort of like taskmaster only more serious.
1)What do you mean the scans you posted???Slade was trying to test her skills.Give me a fight where Slade uses his full potential against her.What matters what Slade said?We can't base our arguements on simple statements.I 've heard a lot of false sentences in comics.In their first fight,Slade indeed was trying to focus on his mission,but when he realized Batman was going to ruin everything he went all out and thrashed him.Still his injuries where so bad that he got stomped by a tied up guy with no feats and barely average skill.I 've never seen Cass doing something like that to Slade.In the fight you posted Slade wasn't trying to fight her,but to escape as it seems,or else he wouldn't have used the grenade.I still want a scan where Slade really goes all out on her with no mercy or anything holding him back.I recall once when Deathstroke was fighting the whole Titans team with Donna Troy,Cass,Ravager,Nightwing and Tim Drake and made them look like second rate chumps.
2)I wasn't trying to prove Batman beat Slade...I was trying to prove Batman has given Slade better fights than Cass.You only posted stalemates with a holding back Deathstroke.
3)Of course it matters what happened when Cass lost her precog powers.You said Cass is more skilled than him while she depends too much on them to even win the simplest fights.I will post the scans,just give me a while cause I am posting through my phone right now.Anyway in this match it doesn't matter,but I want to prove Bats is more skilled.
4)As for Bart trying to blitz him,he was young,during the time he was Kid Flash.Apart from that scan,I haven't seen Cass doing that again,so it's not consistent.Anyway,I proved Batman can outran a bullet so.....
5)That fight with Darkseid was non canon anyway.I have also other sources for my Batman feats.
By durability I mean how much damage they can take before they go down.And Batman is clearly superior to her.I will post a lot of scans but not now.When I reach my PC.
And there's no point bringing up Cass losing a sparring match to Bruce without her move-reading when it was the first time she'd ever been in a situation like that and had no idea how to deal with it. It was also before her training with Shiva and the vast majority of her feats.
@stronger: Please use the reply feature if you aren't going to dissect my post. The scrolling is a pain for everyone and the responses are long enough.
1)What do you mean the scans you posted???Slade was trying to test her skills.Give me a fight where Slade uses his full potential against her.
He wasn't holding back on her there....Your thinking of there second fight.
What matters what Slade said?We can't base our arguements on simple statements.I 've heard a lot of false sentences in comics.
Apologies but what is this in response to? I don't recall bringing up any character statements in my arguement (all though I actually have been meaning to bring up the time Slade stated he has to get inside cains head in order to beat her but I actually forgot).
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Slade says the only two ways to beat her are from a distance and by getting inside her head.
But I honestly can't address this point until you tell me what you are responding?
In their first fight,Slade indeed was trying to focus on his mission,but when he realized Batman was going to ruin everything he went all out and thrashed him.Still his injuries where so bad that he got stomped by a tied up guy with no feats and barely average skill.I 've never seen Cass doing something like that to Slade.
He was still knocked out and he still lost to deathstroke....I don't recall cassandra cain losing to Slade ever. Having 2 stalemates is better then having 3 loses and 1 win.
In the fight you posted Slade wasn't trying to fight her,but to escape as it seems,or else he wouldn't have used the grenade.I still want a scan where Slade really goes all out on her with no mercy or anything holding him back.
How does using a grenade indicate he is holding back? He tried to shoot her in that fight...He was using weapons and he still couldn't win. Deathstroke has never used weapons or even lethal force on batman.I am pretty sure he was trying to escape because he was outmatched.
I recall once when Deathstroke was fighting the whole Titans team with Donna Troy,Cass,Ravager,Nightwing and Tim Drake and made them look like second rate chumps.
Your reffering to teen titans #46 and cassandra cain had been poisoned earlier in that story arc. She likely wasn't 100% at the time of that fight.
2)I wasn't trying to prove Batman beat Slade...I was trying to prove Batman has given Slade better fights than Cass.You only posted stalemates with a holding back Deathstroke.
No you did state batman defeated Slade.
This is what you stated:
And Slade wasn't holding back....
3)Of course it matters what happened when Cass lost her precog powers.You said Cass is more skilled than him while she depends too much on them to even win the simplest fights.I will post the scans,just give me a while cause I am posting through my phone right now.Anyway in this match it doesn't matter,but I want to prove Bats is more skilled.
Cassandra cains body reading technique is a part of her skill. Part of martial arts is being able to anticipate what move your opponent is going to make and countering appropriately. Cass has mastered this part of skill with her body reading technique which she incorporates into her fighting style.
And its irrelevant because after she got her body reading back she was dodging his attacks pretty easily. She has her body reading ability here so which fight is more relevant to this discussion?
4)As for Bart trying to blitz him,he was young,during the time he was Kid Flash.Apart from that scan,I haven't seen Cass doing that again,so it's not consistent.
Bart is still currently Kid flash...He has been stated to be the most powerful flash. Flashes don't always move as fast as they should which is why they have been tagged by street levelers when they really shouldn't.
Anyway,I proved Batman can outran a bullet so.....
No you didn't. You showed a scan of batman dodging bullets after they are fired. That isn't the same thing at all. If someone tosses a dodge ball at you, you can probably dodge it. However if someone asks you to actually outrun the dodge ball you wont do it. Its the same thing with bullets.
5)That fight with Darkseid was non canon anyway.I have also other sources for my Batman feats.
That would only further prove my point that site isn't that trust worthy....You have to be careful with the scans you use there.
By durability I mean how much damage they can take before they go down.And Batman is clearly superior to her.I will post a lot of scans but not now.When I reach my PC.
I agree batman has that due to his cowl however I think cassandra cain can still win. She has been able to kick through a few inches of quartz, she knocked out a bullet proof meta human IIRC. So I would say she can hurt batman and take him down.
I agree batman would probably win if he used gear but I don't consider it in character for him to use it against other skilled fighters. I think he would try hand to hand combat.
@jashro44: Yes, he would try that first and if it doesn't work (considering the comments above, i think it wont) he will eventually try something else like outsmart her or exploit her weaknesses or gear
1) Prove why he wasn't holding back.he seemed pretty sure for himself.
2)I am talking about that statement of Slade saying the only way someone can defeat cass is screwing with her head or keeping a distance.IMO it's false.
3)And I don't recall Cass delivering to him such damage.After all Slade never actually wanted to put down Cass.
3)Sorry,I meant could beat Slade.Obviously Slade wins the majority of the battles,but generally IMO Bats would win more matches than Cass.Still prove Slade wasn't holding back,cause from what it seemed,he was trying to escape rather than fight her.
4)Obviously the second,but a sparring is much different from an actual fight.And Batman and cass have fought to a stalemate.
5)Still isn't this a speed feat for Bats?
6)What?"He dodged the aim and not the actual beams so not impressive. When characters dodge bullets and such it is assumed they are dodging the aim and not the actual bullet. Its the same thing here. Unless it is clearly shown he is dodging the beam after it is fired he isn't.: "
That's what you said.....He dodged the bullet after it was fired.Same as Cass did.
Depends what you mean outrunning a bullet.Do you mean it hit it's target after Cass took down the shooter?
7)Anyway I don't know why you brought this up my friend.I didn't show you any irrelevant scan yet,did I?
8)Not only the batsuit is more durable but Batman has way more endurance feats.
Check out the Night of Owls arc in the New 52,where Lincoln March (Bruce's brother) delivers some major damage on him.
Also the Court of Owls had him trapped for days without food or water,and he still was able to defeat their greatest Talon(William Cobb),though he was drugged,starving,stabbed in the belly and driven nearly insane.
Sigh...this is what happens when you pluck scans off respect threads from issues you've never bothered to read.
STFU YOU ASS, TIM EASILY BEAT CASS!!
Cass and Tim staged that fight to fool the Penguin. It was all fake, and Tim himself stated it was rigged and he never defeated Cassandra.
Literally anyone who has actually read Batgirl #59 instead of pasting an out of context scan from a faulty respect thread would know the fight was rigged.
But Cass vs Nightwing! That was totally legit, right?!
Lol no. That was all the fight consisted of. Nightwing jumping out at Cass, in a rage, trying to knock her out while she tried to restrain him until Alfred showed up and told Dick to calm the hell down. Dick never defeated her here, nor did he even come close.
Ok, but it's not like Cass has ever embarrassed Dick in other showings, right? Right?
Depends, are we counting the time he attacked her in the Batcave and couldn't hit her even once?
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And Joker has not only given Batman a good fight on a couple of the 20 or so occasions they've fought, he's defeated him at least once as well. And Harley has one-shotted Batman with her hammer. Low showings go both ways.
While coming up with evidence, try not to rely on horrible sources like the batmanfeats blog. That place loves to omit context as and when it suits them.....with the results you can see above.
1) Prove why he wasn't holding back.he seemed pretty sure for himself.
He was using lethal force....When someone draws a gun on you and shoots you, you don't assume they are playing around. Why else would Slade shoot her?
And also the burden of proof isn't on me. Your the one making the claim Slade is holding back so thats for you to prove.
2)I am talking about that statement of Slade saying the only way someone can defeat cass is screwing with her head or keeping a distance.IMO it's false.
Earlier in the debate you said Slade stated "batman was the most challenging fight he ever fought" (that isn't what Slade said exactly but whatever) so why is it when it comes to slade stating that about batman its valid but his statement about having to get inside Cassandras head is invalid? I am curious.
So why is it when batman notes something about Slade its valid but when he notes something about Cassandra statements don't mean anything?
3)And I don't recall Cass delivering to him such damage.After all Slade never actually wanted to put down Cass.
The only time he wasn't trying to win was when he was leading her to ravager. There other fights he went to great lengths to kill her....She never dealt that much damage to Slade because he always ran away...They have never had a conclusive fight because of this. I have never seen batman dodge all of deathstrokes blows the way Cass did on the scans in the previous page.
3)Sorry,I meant could beat Slade.Obviously Slade wins the majority of the battles,but generally IMO Bats would win more matches than Cass.
He has all ready lost 3 matches and she has multiple stalemates....Cass has been able to match Slade and batman hasn't. The track record seems to favor Cassandra.
Still prove Slade wasn't holding back,cause from what it seemed,he was trying to escape rather than fight her.
That's for you to prove. All though honestly why would Slade use lethal force in a fight he was holding back in? Why try to shoot her or blow up the building if he was holding back?
4)Obviously the second,but a sparring is much different from an actual fight.And Batman and cass have fought to a stalemate.
Your the one that brought up batman defeating Cassandra cain without her body reading technique as proof he wins here. The fight you are referring to was a training session. All though I am pretty certain that batman said he didn't hold back in his spars with Cassandra cain.
A stalemate isn't a win. I don't think batman is going to get stomped I just don't see him taking a majority here.
5)Still isn't this a speed feat for Bats?
The scan of him dodging bullets you posted? Sure. Its not as good as cassandra cains feat.
6)What?"He dodged the aim and not the actual beams so not impressive. When characters dodge bullets and such it is assumed they are dodging the aim and not the actual bullet. Its the same thing here. Unless it is clearly shown he is dodging the beam after it is fired he isn't.: "
That's what you said.....He dodged the bullet after it was fired.Same as Cass did.
That statement was in response to you saying batman dodged beams of light. All he did there was dodge the aim and not the beams. I don't doubt that batman can dodge bullets after they are fired but the feat I posted was Cassandra out running a bullet basically.
Depends what you mean outrunning a bullet.Do you mean it hit it's target after Cass took down the shooter?
I mean the guy with the gun fired the bullet, and after the bullet left the barrel cass charged at him, she managed to punch the guy before the bullet reached the spot where she was standing.
7)Anyway I don't know why you brought this up my friend.I didn't show you any irrelevant scan yet,did I?
Because you posted the link and told me to check it. If you are educating people using that blog then it needs to be noted scans there aren't always in context.
8)Not only the batsuit is more durable but Batman has way more endurance feats.
Check out the Night of Owls arc in the New 52,where Lincoln March (Bruce's brother) delivers some major damage on him.
Also the Court of Owls had him trapped for days without food or water,and he still was able to defeat their greatest Talon(William Cobb),though he was drugged,starving,stabbed in the belly and driven nearly insane.
And those are only a few of Batman's feats.
Fair enough I guess. I don't think the gap is very big though. Batman can still be knocked out.
Now as for the scans I owe you:
Nightwing vs Cass (Batman and the Outsiders #14)
Sorry but I couldn't make them links...I don't know what happened....Maybe a malfunction..
I have seen this fight and nightwing didn't win. It was a stalemate. And citizenbane also uploaded scans of cass dancing around nightwing.
Tim Drake vs Cass
Citizenbane addressed this as well. Tim and Cass were faking.
Joker vs Cass
P.S I never said Joker won that fight.....He just gave her a good fight.
The scan doesn't state her body reading isn't working. It states jokers body reading is gibberish.
Basically she was getting false signals from the joker. For example she would read him as going for a right punch but in actuality he would be throwing a left punch. Since she thought the punch was going to the left she moved to the right and moved into the punch because she thought she was moving away from the punch.
Its not that she didn't have her body reading its that her body reading was working against her in her fight with joker.
Yes, he would try that first and if it doesn't work (considering the comments above, i think it wont) he will eventually try something else like outsmart her
or exploit her weaknesses or gear
He never did that the last time. Last time he tossed a few batarangs but that was it as I recall it. He usually seems to go hand to hand. He has gone hand to hand with deathstroke, shiva, JPV, KG beast, NK demon, and a few other. When I do see him use gadgets he seems to mostly use batarangs.
1) I can give you many cases where guns are used only to slow down someone(with Punisher,Red Hood etc),if you want.
2) I did state that.You are forgetting that it wasn't just a statement.Deathstroke injuries where the best proof.So it's not just pointless statements only made to praise Batman for being a good opponent.
3)You know Deathstroke fought her along side the Titans,don't you?.....He didn't really seemed worried.
Just a question.Do you believe Cass could take Deathstroke even in h2h?
4)Deathstroke usually runs away from her cause it's either Deathstroke vs the whole Titans team or it's Ravager job to put him down and he doesn't want to involve himself.In that fight you posted ,it seemed like Deathstroke only used the grenade as a cover of his escape.He wasn't trying to end her.IMO if Slade wanted to end her,he would have done it a long time ago.
5)I didn't bring that as a proof of Batman beating her here.I brought it as proof Batman is more skilled than her without her powers.
6)Another question.In your opinion,how many victories would Batman get over Cass out of ten battles?
The question are just made to check your perspective.
7)And batman managed to hit his target before the bullet hit him.
8)Sure Bats can be knocked out.If it was a durability contest,Batman would take it no doubt.Cass will need more strike to put him down than he would need to put her down.
9)I am really sorry about the scans,but the people there ensured me Cass didn't have her body reading powers.
People there were typing "Tim beating Cass without powers", and I thought it was the right scan.
Anyway,Batman losing to Joker happened once in the whole Batman's career.Also,Joker's fighting ability depends on the writer.Others portray him as worse than common thug,and other portray him as an equal or even better than Batman himself.
As for the "Harley Quinn knocking out Batman with a hammer",I ensure you it is as irrelevant as my other scans.If it's that we are talking about......
First of all,Harley got him from behind.
I recall Talia knocking Lady Shiva out from behind with a chair,she was previously all tied up.Do you want the scan?
From the same story arc,just a couple issue before, I also recall Harley Quinn trying to get Batman from behind with a hammer the same way she did on that scan.
Do you know what happens next?Harley gets one-shotted and knocked out by a kick in the stomach.
@stronger: Apologies for the late response. I haven't checked my inbox until today.
1) I can give you many cases where guns are used only to slow down someone(with Punisher,Red Hood etc),if you want.
When punisher fights heroes its not so much he misses on purpose so much as he is shooting to shoot to wound. And the difference is this is part of his morals. The same can't be said for deathstroke. When he is trying not to kill other heroes he usually just fights them hand to hand. He doesn't draw weapons. And this was the first time he met Cassandra I believe so he didn't know who she was.
2) I did state that.You are forgetting that it wasn't just a statement.Deathstroke injuries where the best proof.So it's not just pointless statements only made to praise Batman for being a good opponent.
Yes but you brought up the statement first IIRC. But it doesn't really matter as batman lost that fight...
3)You know Deathstroke fought her along side the Titans,don't you?.....He didn't really seemed worried.
maybe because Cassandra was poisoned? He even references the fight when he states the only way to fight her is by getting inside her head or from a distance like the last time he poisoned her. So by his own admission the poisons played a role.
Just a question.Do you believe Cass could take Deathstroke even in h2h?
I am uncertain. Slade probably would win a slight majority. But he would take less wins on cass then he would on batman as far as what has been shown so far.
4)Deathstroke usually runs away from her cause it's either Deathstroke vs the whole Titans team or it's Ravager job to put him down and he doesn't want to involve himself.
Neither of these circumstances applied to the fight I posted.
In that fight you posted ,it seemed like Deathstroke only used the grenade as a cover of his escape.He wasn't trying to end her.IMO if Slade wanted to end her,he would have done it a long time ago.
Problem being this is an assumption. I could say the same thing about slade and batman. This needs a statement to back it up.
5)I didn't bring that as a proof of Batman beating her here.I brought it as proof Batman is more skilled than her without her powers.
She doesn't have powers. Her move reading is an ability she was taught (she was raised to read body language as opposed to speak and write)
She has her body reading here so batman being better then her without her body reading doesn't matter.
6)Another question.In your opinion,how many victories would Batman get over Cass out of ten battles?
The question are just made to check your perspective.
3-4/10.
7)And batman managed to hit his target before the bullet hit him.
Your scan doesn't show batman outrunning a bullet. It shows him dodging bullets in mid flight. Again there is a pretty big difference. Ask your friend to toss a ball at you and wait until after the ball is thrown to dodge the ball. Then ask your friend to throw a ball at a target and after the ball is thrown try to out race the ball to the target. Assuming your friend is of average strength the second task should be a lot harder. Its the same thing here. Cass out running a bullet is more impressive then batman dodging bullets in mid flight.
8)Sure Bats can be knocked out.If it was a durability contest,Batman would take it no doubt.Cass will need more strike to put him down than he would need to put her down.
@jashro44: No worries.I enjoy a good debate any time.
1)Well Deathstroke's morality isn't that complicated.He is what we would call in one word,neutral.He uses his skills and abilities only to benefit himself and noone else.He doesn't care if his actions affect other people's lives positevily or negatively.He is neither a hero nor a villain.So he doesn't generally shoot to kill.Only when he has no other chance.And by common sense,as a merc,he should avoid unesesairy deaths.
2)IMO it matters because it shows the potential damage Batman would do to DS.It's a good feat for both Deathstroke and Batman.
3)Fair enough.
4)The fight you posted showed clearly Slade holding a grenade and then run away.He wasn't exactly bloodlusted....
5)IMO Slade's skill combined with his enhanced stats would give him a decent 7/10 victories over her.
6)Agreed
7)Fascinating example yet I don't see how we are saying anything different.Batman managed to hit the target he was aiming before the bullet hit it(the target). I am sorry for the wrong expression.
I would probably have say a stalemate or Batman might take a small majority due to being able to utilize more intimate information about Cassandra Cain to really get understand her skin during this little hand-to-hand bout.
1)Well Deathstroke's morality isn't that complicated.He is what we would call in one word,neutral.He uses his skills and abilities only to benefit himself and noone else.He doesn't care if his actions affect other people's lives positevily or negatively.He is neither a hero nor a villain.So he doesn't generally shoot to kill.Only when he has no other chance.And by common sense,as a merc,he should avoid unesesairy deaths.
As you said Slade doesn't care about his actions. He fights to win. May I ask what your evidence is that he doesn't shoot to kill? Slade will do whatever benefits him and I believe he wasn't even expecting cassandra to be there (that was there first meeting). He really had no reason to care if cassandra would live or die.
2)IMO it matters because it shows the potential damage Batman would do to DS.It's a good feat for both Deathstroke and Batman.
A good feat but he still lost....As I have said the only time cass really lost to slade was when she was poisoned (all though technically she was knocked out by nightwing but whatever).
4)The fight you posted showed clearly Slade holding a grenade and then run away.He wasn't exactly bloodlusted....
There is no such thing as a bloodlusted slade. He kills all the time when plot allows him to use his weapons. He used the grenade to escape because he was losing. Unless you have evidence confirming otherwise....
5)IMO Slade's skill combined with his enhanced stats would give him a decent 7/10 victories over her.
Fair enough. He would beat batman for a majority as well.
7)Fascinating example yet I don't see how we are saying anything different.Batman managed to hit the target he was aiming before the bullet hit it(the target). I am sorry for the wrong expression.
Can you repost the scan you are referring to? I must of some how missed this scan.
I would probably have say a stalemate or Batman might take a small majority due to being able to utilize more intimate information about Cassandra Cain to really get understand her skin during this little hand-to-hand bout.
David cain and deathstroke have both gotten under her skin and they haven't beaten her (granted she hasn't beaten deathstroke all though I would say her track record is better against him then batmans).
Deathstroke made a comment that the only way he could beat her was if he played to his advantage of getting under her skin, so my rationale for my claim is that since Deathstroke obviously believes that he is capable of getting the upperhand against Cassandra Cain by making references to appeal to her more emotional side then theoretically wouldn't Batman be capable of performing the same tactics to make her sloppy since he would have a much more personal relationship with her? I have seen scans of Batman stalemating Cassandra Cain without using such tactics. Could doing such tip the odds more in his favor?
Deathstroke made a comment that the only way he could beat her was if he played to his advantage of getting under her skin, so my rationale for my claim is that since Deathstroke obviously believes that he is capable of getting the upperhand against Cassandra Cain by making references to appeal to her more emotional side then theoretically wouldn't Batman be capable of performing the same tactics to make her sloppy since he would have a much more personal relationship with her? I have seen scans of Batman stalemating Cassandra Cain without using such tactics. Could doing such tip the odds more in his favor?
Possibly. Problem is despite slade getting in her head she has still contended with him and she knows that if she is going to be fighting batman he is going to pull this off so she can ignore him. Her biggest issue was her daddy issues but that didn't really stop her from beating david cain so she has shown she can get passed that. What you also have to take into account with her fights with slade is she can't read him so she is at a disadvantage against him that she isn't with batman. As for the stalemate all though it shows batman can hang with Cassandra I don't believe one fight should dictate how all there fights will go as they are written by multiple different writers with multiple different opinions.
@jashro44: I normally consider this match to be a tossup between the two, but using any means necessary in character to incapacitate the other? In that case i would edge a slim majority to Bruce.
Bruce, over the years has shown more than avid ability to keep up with opponents with the speed of Cassandra Cain, also the pre-cog and martial ability. He is also stronger, and tactically smarter (arguably). Most importantly, he has much better feats using gear against other opponents through out the years. If he is really trying to put Cass down by any means necessary, Bruce's plethora of non-lethal gear puts her at a huge disadvantage.
@jashro44: I normally consider this match to be a tossup between the two, but using any means necessary in character to incapacitate the other? In that case i would edge a slim majority to Bruce.
Bruce, over the years has shown more than avid ability to keep up with opponents with the speed of Cassandra Cain, also the pre-cog and martial ability.
I think the argument of "so and so has shown he has the ability to keep up with characters with similar speed as this character" isn't really enough.The same could be said for cassandra. She has been able to keep up (and even stay head of) characters who are just as fast if not faster then batman (lady shiva, deathstroke, etc). Another problem with this argument is that all though batman does have feats of fighting people at cassandras speed there are also showings of people slower then cassandra cain keeping up with him.
He is also stronger, and tactically smarter (arguably).
I agree with this.
Most importantly, he has much better feats using gear against other opponents through out the years. If he is really trying to put Cass down by any means necessary, Bruce's plethora of non-lethal gear puts her at a huge disadvantage.
Thing is they are also in character. The most I usually see batman do with his gadgets on skilled fighters is toss baarangs. Even in instances like in court of the owls where he was near death he went hand to hand. You could argue he didn't need gadgets there but even against someone like deathstroke he still goes hand to hand.
You could argue thats its just plot but I would say in superman/batman when he fought lady shiva he said something along the lines of "I always wondered which one of us was better". I think because this is his conscous thought that it is more so his character as opposed to his plot.
1.Deathstroke has always held back on Nightwing,Green Arrow and the Titans.There are some circumstances he could have killed them,but he chose not.
2.Deathstroke didn't even bother with Cassandra in that fight.
3.As I said Deathstroke has held back for other characters,apart from Cassandra.
Just to address all these points at once:
Deathstroke holds back on nightwing because nightwing isn't a threat to him. Its not so much holding back as it is toying with him.
Green arrow deathstroke has a personal grudge with. He wanted him to suffer before he killed him.
The titans I don't think he holds back on. If anything I would say there the same category as green arrow and he wants them to suffer because his son died fighting the titans IIRC.
2. Because she was poisoned....Its like me saying bane owned batman in knightfall. The only reason bane beat him was because batman wasn't 100%. Its the same deal in that fight where slade was taking on the titans. 3. If your arguing that Slade holds back on everyone so therefore he holds back on cassandra cain then that would mean his morals had him holding back on batman....In which case cassandra cain still comes off looking better.
4.I never said opposite.Deathstroke would also win the majority of the victories against Batman as well.
That doesn't show batman outracing a bullet. It shows him dodging bullets. We don't see when the bullets hit the wall behind him we just see batman dodge them. He isn't beating them to the target. Where as in the scan I posted we see where cass is standing, we see the guy fire the gun and cass punches the guy, before the bullet reaches the spot where she was standing. That is the difference.
The other bullet dodging scan and the one with freeze seem to be basic dodging feats. I don't think those are special.
The last one is impressive but I don't think its as impressive as the stuff I posted to be honest.
1.Characters like Deathstroke don't go full out on other main characters is because of the fact that he would just kill them.So there is mainly plot infused.I highly doubt that without PIS any hero would survive a bloodlusted encounter with Deathstroke.
2.IMO dodging bullets is a good feat but doesn't really show much.If Cassie was that fast at all,why couldn't see defend herself against Batman when she lost her body reading moves?
As another viner said,bullets are the biggest jobbers in comics. And there is absolutely zero difference in objectivity between a fighter dodging another fighter and a fighter dodging a bullet in comics, since both are the result of a writer's imagination.
I mean her speed advantage which is by a very small margin,is IMO overwhelmed by Bruce's durability and strength.
1.Characters like Deathstroke don't go full out on other main characters is because of the fact that he would just kill them.So there is mainly plot infused.I highly doubt that without PIS any hero would survive a bloodlusted encounter with Deathstroke.
I can agree Slade doesn't kill for the sake of plot but that doesn't mean he is trying to win. If your argument is that deathstroke holds back on everyone then that means batman lost to what you are calling a holding back deathstorke and cassandras feat is still more impressive.
2.IMO dodging bullets is a good feat but doesn't really show much.If Cassie was that fast at all,
Again the feat I am referring is not bullet dodging.It is out running a bullet. There is a huge difference between the two feats.
why couldn't see defend herself against Batman when she lost her body reading moves?
Plot. Its the same reason she ran through gun fire as opposed to dodge gunfire despite several feats of reacting to bullets after they are fired.
And again when she got her body reading back she side stepped batmans attacks. So I wouldn't use that as a showing for batman beating cassandra cain.
As another viner said,bullets are the biggest jobbers in comics. And there is absolutely zero difference in objectivity between a fighter dodging another fighter and a fighter dodging a bullet in comics, since both are the result of a writer's imagination.
Thing is what I have been trying to tell you this entire debate is the feat I have been going on about isn't bullet dodging. It is out running a bullet....There is a huge difference.
I mean her speed advantage which is by a very small margin,is IMO overwhelmed by Bruce's durability and strength.
1.You know,there is much difference between being bloodlusted,which means you go for the kill, and going all out,which means you are fighting at the best of your ability.Deathstroke didn't want to kill Cassandra and Batman but at least in the fight with Batman,he was fighting at the best of his abilities.If he wanted to kill them he would have done.Also there is no indication that Deathstroke was either fighting at his best or not in that fights with Batgirl which you posted.I admit I cannot prove he was fighting at best.Can you prove otherwise? I mean,I have seen DS holding back a lot of times just to check the opponent's abilities and skills.For example,in the new 52,his fight with Kosche,who was immortal.I don't know if you read any Deathstroke or if you are familiar with the fight I am reffering to.
2.I never showed Batman beating Cassandra as a feat of him beating her.I posted it as a feat of him being more skilled without powers,which you mentioned that are not exactly powers etc.So there is no point bringing it up again.
3.I see.
4.Well I don't think we need to strech it any more.We said what we wnted to say.We posted what we wanted to post.Well now it's just anyone's opinion. I don't think that there is any point to continue that......
1.You know,there is much difference between being bloodlusted,which means you go for the kill, and going all out,which means you are fighting at the best of your ability.Deathstroke didn't want to kill Cassandra and Batman but at least in the fight with Batman,he was fighting at the best of his abilities.If he wanted to kill them he would have done.Also there is no indication that Deathstroke was either fighting at his best or not in that fights with Batgirl which you posted.
What makes you say he was fighting at the best of his abilities? There first fight they were talking. IIRC Slade just wanted batman to leave him alone. There second battle he was focused on his job. I am not sure what makes you think he wasn't going full out against casandra. There isn't any indication he was holding back....
I admit I cannot prove he was fighting at best.Can you prove otherwise? I mean,I have seen DS holding back a lot of times just to check the opponent's abilities and skills.For example,in the new 52,his fight with Kosche,who was immortal.I don't know if you read any Deathstroke or if you are familiar with the fight I am reffering to.
Why would he not try to fight at the best of his abilities? Why would he hold back? Your the one making the claim so the burden of proof is on you to prove slade was holding back.
I have read every issue in the new 52. His first fight with the unkillable man he was testing his strength and he let himself get hit. He was only trying to get a gauge the unkillable man. He wasn't doing that with cassandra as he didn't know who she was. There second fight he curbstomped him and had the villagers beat on the unkillable man in order to make him want to kill himself.
2.I never showed Batman beating Cassandra as a feat of him beating her.I posted it as a feat of him being more skilled without powers,which you mentioned that are not exactly powers etc.So there is no point bringing it up again.
No offense but your the one who keeps bringing it up.
4.Well I don't think we need to strech it any more.We said what we wnted to say.We posted what we wanted to post.Well now it's just anyone's opinion. I don't think that there is any point to continue that......
@stronger: @jashro44: Wow. Its been a great debate guys and I appreciate the feedback.!
Unfortunately, in my greener days I made this as a blog post.So I've been recieving every single post in my inbox twice. Lol, its kind of rough going through them all. I really thank you guys for the entertainment and knowldege I recieved. I'll be asking a mod to lock this soon, so any final staements I would love to hear them.
@knightrise: To be honest I think we are going in circles at the moment. It was a pretty good debate but I don't see what I can really say that I haven't said all ready. I still stand by what I stated and that cassandra cain should win a majority IMO. And yea apologies for spamming up your inbox.
If Cassandra has superspeed, why was Batman able to literally ragdoll her when she lost her body reading ability? She should have just been able to dodge around him.
Why hasn't she shown superspeed to the extenbt of outrunning a bullet when she has fought with Batman, Joker, Robin, Nightwing, Deathstroke, etc?
Why did she get shot when she lost her movereading? If she had superspeed, she'd just be able to... dodge.
What is the in-story basis for her superspeed? Karate Kid can do stuff like that through training but he's literally traveled the universe learning martial arts.
Also, Batman has ALSO blocked bullets. We still don't say he can move at the speed of a bullet when in a fight.
@stronger: @jashro44: Wow. Its been a great debate guys and I appreciate the feedback.!
Unfortunately, in my greener days I made this as a blog post.So I've been recieving every single post in my inbox twice. Lol, its kind of rough going through them all. I really thank you guys for the entertainment and knowldege I recieved. I'll be asking a mod to lock this soon, so any final staements I would love to hear them.
Thank you very much.I think we both said what we wanted to say and it's now up to other users to decide.Sorry for the spamming.
If Cassandra has superspeed, why was Batman able to literally ragdoll her when she lost her body reading ability? She should have just been able to dodge around him.
Why hasn't she shown superspeed to the extenbt of outrunning a bullet when she has fought with Batman, Joker, Robin, Nightwing, Deathstroke, etc?
Why did she get shot when she lost her movereading? If she had superspeed, she'd just be able to... dodge.
What is the in-story basis for her superspeed? Karate Kid can do stuff like that through training but he's literally traveled the universe learning martial arts.
Also, Batman has ALSO blocked bullets. We still don't say he can move at the speed of a bullet when in a fight.
Good arguements,but I don't think Jashro44 meant she had superspeed.She has unexplainable vast velocity movements.
Cass having the speed to move unseen is a matter of body reading. And the same respect threads that take things out of context have Batman throwing someone through a steel door designed to withstand nuclear blasts. The comic that posted this sweetness was Batgirl. They exaggerate some core stats to be entertaining. Batman is not a ten tonner. Cassandra does not have full blown metahuman speed. Her skills are so high that it appears to be that way. And that is why Deathstroke did all the things he did to her. She was able to do as well as she did because he acted as though she did not have body reading. When he did not want her to read him, she could not. As it should be.
Pure H2H would give Cass a slim majority. Bats is a beast at finding gaps in technique. He would only need a mistake to capitalize on. And he has Bane (no venom) level durability.
Bump. I still believe Bruce is more skilled. Cassie is gifted with her body reading and is faster, I admit it but she fights like Damien, more contrived from her passion and lets loose. Bruce with those type of morals and without reservations would take the majority via being the more skilled, intelligent fighter. She's second only to him in the Batfam but she IS second. Were it h2h in character in I would give the majority to Cassie though
Batman wins. While Cassie is the superior fighter Batman is simply far more intelligent. Cassandra is still a child while batman is more than just a fighter. He's a master tactician, disguise and escape artist, strategist, master of stealth and detective with decades of experience over her. Not to mention he has the god of all tool belts around his waist that Cass just has absolutely no answer for. Cassandra is a top tier fighter and can predict strikes through muscle tensing and some such nonsense but can she predict what he'll pull out of his belt next? Can she tell what he's thinking? Batman isn't one of the most dangerous people in the DC Universe because of his fighting skill it's because of his intellect. Batman has means of beating people he can't fight head on Poison Ivy, Bane, Man-Bat, Grundy etc and this would be no different. She is a child and he would out think her and defeat her because he's not just a man HE'S BATMAN!
@lilbroomstick: Nonsense. You don't just take Batman's belt. That's like saying she'd just take Cap's shield, Thor's Hammer, Or Hal's Ring. If it were that easy then it wouldn't even be useful for him to carry it. The belt is Usually bolted to the suit and requires several things to be undone before he can take it off. do you think he'd just stand there and let her. As for reaching in the belt that's not the issue the issue is that she doesn't know #1 What he'll pull out of the belt? #2 What's even in the belt? and #3 what his plan is? Say he reaches for his belt. He could pull out a sonic disrupter, emp, taser, batarang, grappling hook, The Sun? Anything's possible. Example, what's stopping him from just putting his rebreather on and dropping a sleeping gas pellet on the ground while fighting. Cass would be out in moments before she even knew what hit her. Even without the belt tho he'd still have the upper hand having years of experience. like I said he's beaten others like bane and shiva that are stronger and more skilled than him because he's smarter than them. Point is I keep saying Batman Is older, more skilled in several areas, stronger, and downright smarter. The only thing that Cass has is her fighting skill but as a wise Jedi once said "There are alternatives to fighting"
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