10pm in Gotham City. The streets are populated and the characters will begin at the opposite ends of Crime Alley. The Bat team cannot access any advantages such as safe houses, vehicles or other blatantly unfair advantages the home field advantage would offer.
What?
This is a random encounter and they're all in character. Both teams have basic knowledge. Team Bats knows X-23 has a healing factor and that Gambit has an explosive power. Gambit and X-23 know Batman and Nightwing are very skilled humans. Team Bats is pre-52 and Gambit will not use his death powers. Characters are eliminated by all standard methods.
Why?
Don't just say "x wins" and move on! Back that opinion up with some sexy facts! Why do you support a side? Have any scans to share? Make these threads an example for the community!
Batman and Nightwing. Together, their communication and teamwork could defeat a lot of opponents, even with standard equipment and knowledge. With prep, they're practically unstoppable!
I say yay. Batman's suit is armored up to the point where it has withstood (with nothing to show for it) a point blank explosion that could affect Brick, a guy who has shrugged off an RPG in the past. He can take Gambit's cards and assorted tricks long enough to knock him out, and they both have high powered electrical shocks built into their suits that can one-shot Remy. X-23 is the real issue.
Side note, the last time Batman and Nightwing teamed up in Gotham, they took down an Amazo prototype.
I say yay. Batman's suit is armored up to the point where it has withstood (with nothing to show for it) a point blank explosion that could affect Brick, a guy who has shrugged off an RPG in the past. He can take Gambit's cards and assorted tricks long enough to knock him out, and they both have high powered electrical shocks built into their suits that can one-shot Remy. X-23 is the real issue.
Side note, the last time Batman and Nightwing teamed up in Gotham, they took down an Amazo prototype.
I say yay. Batman's suit is armored up to the point where it has withstood (with nothing to show for it) a point blank explosion that could affect Brick, a guy who has shrugged off an RPG in the past. He can take Gambit's cards and assorted tricks long enough to knock him out, and they both have high powered electrical shocks built into their suits that can one-shot Remy. X-23 is the real issue.
Side note, the last time Batman and Nightwing teamed up in Gotham, they took down an Amazo prototype.
Since I'm sure @Erik will drop plenty of scans, I'll just help by giving the bolded a visual.
I say yay. Batman's suit is armored up to the point where it has withstood (with nothing to show for it) a point blank explosion that could affect Brick, a guy who has shrugged off an RPG in the past. He can take Gambit's cards and assorted tricks long enough to knock him out, and they both have high powered electrical shocks built into their suits that can one-shot Remy. X-23 is the real issue.
Side note, the last time Batman and Nightwing teamed up in Gotham, they took down an Amazo prototype.
An explosion that can hurt Brick? If Batman's suit was normally that durable, I see no reason why he bothers to dodge gunfire at all. Or any number of other dangerous attacks. And it is not like an exploding card is something you can just run through even if the armor worn can take the blast. Normal cards hold charges that can and will send the target flying. And after seeing the scans, I can only assume that is the explosion you were talking about. I did not see it have an effect on Brick, only that he admitted that it hurt. Stubbing my toe hurts but it does not have a noticeable affect on me. It certainly did not hurt him to the point that he felt the desire to lash out or lose control of himself, or even cry out in pain. Not to take away from the fact that Batman willingly blew himself up, but I do not think it was an explosion that was lethal. Batman does not use lethal. I feel strongly that the explosion would not have killed Batman even without the armor. Severely injured maybe, but I doubt kill. Furthermore, I am almost certain that the armor will be able to provide some protection but getting hit will still hurt a great deal and Gambit has killed armored individuals before without much trouble.
Yes they have shock devices that can hurt Remy but he is extremely fast. Faster than a normal human as a matter of a fact. Fast enough that he was able to keep up with Daredevil, who has superhuman reflexes and Gambit did it with his usual casual charm. I think hitting him may be a tad more difficult than your argument would lead me to believe.
All Team 1 knows about X-23 is that she can heal. They do not know the extent of her power so lethal attacks are still a no-no. And she has the element of surprise with her claws, which will cut right through that armor like butter. X-23 has taken on a recent "Try not to kill unless they piss you off" stance in life but that does not mean she cannot severely and even critically injure with her claws. Then there is the fact that she is extremely fast and powerful for her size. I see either one of Team 1 being surprised at her ability. They will not even know she can fight at the onset of the battle.
I say yay. Batman's suit is armored up to the point where it has withstood (with nothing to show for it) a point blank explosion that could affect Brick, a guy who has shrugged off an RPG in the past. He can take Gambit's cards and assorted tricks long enough to knock him out, and they both have high powered electrical shocks built into their suits that can one-shot Remy. X-23 is the real issue.
Side note, the last time Batman and Nightwing teamed up in Gotham, they took down an Amazo prototype.
An explosion that can hurt Brick? If Batman's suit was normally that durable, I see no reason why he bothers to dodge gunfire at all. Or any number of other dangerous attacks. And it is not like an exploding card is something you can just run through even if the armor worn can take the blast. Normal cards hold charges that can and will send the target flying. And after seeing the scans, I can only assume that is the explosion you were talking about. I did not see it have an effect on Brick, only that he admitted that it hurt. Stubbing my toe hurts but it does not have a noticeable affect on me. It certainly did not hurt him to the point that he felt the desire to lash out or lose control of himself, or even cry out in pain. Not to take away from the fact that Batman willingly blew himself up, but I do not think it was an explosion that was lethal. Batman does not use lethal. I feel strongly that the explosion would not have killed Batman even without the armor. Severely injured maybe, but I doubt kill. Furthermore, I am almost certain that the armor will be able to provide some protection but getting hit will still hurt a great deal and Gambit has killed armored individuals before without much trouble.
Yes they have shock devices that can hurt Remy but he is extremely fast. Faster than a normal human as a matter of a fact. Fast enough that he was able to keep up with Daredevil, who has superhuman reflexes and Gambit did it with his usual casual charm. I think hitting him may be a tad more difficult than your argument would lead me to believe.
All Team 1 knows about X-23 is that she can heal. They do not know the extent of her power so lethal attacks are still a no-no. And she has the element of surprise with her claws, which will cut right through that armor like butter. X-23 has taken on a recent "Try not to kill unless they piss you off" stance in life but that does not mean she cannot severely and even critically injure with her claws. Then there is the fact that she is extremely fast and powerful for her size. I see either one of Team 1 being surprised at her ability. They will not even know she can fight at the onset of the battle.
Does the Bat-clan underestimate opponents? I know they dont even know about the adamantium claws so great advantage for team and like you said that they don know that she's enhanced-superhuman. Cant Gambit vary the strength of the charge as well?
That i don't know but he is able to charge buildings also i forgot which issue that was, but since there fighting in Crime Alley he does have a advantage of using almost everthing there as a explosive. Also both Batman and Nightwing don't know what his power is anyway.
An explosion that can hurt Brick? If Batman's suit was normally that durable, I see no reason why he bothers to dodge gunfire at all. Or any number of other dangerous attacks.
It depends on who's writing, honestly. Some have him dodging gunfire, others have his suit deflecting bullets like it is the easiest thing in the world.
Gallery
As far as other dangerous attacks go, he has endured explosions several times as well.
Gallery
This is a more recent example from the DCnU, not sure whether it counts because of the pre-52 stipulation, but still:
Gallery
And it is not like an exploding card is something you can just run through even if the armor worn can take the blast. Normal cards hold charges that can and will send the target flying.
It depends on whether the cards will hit them in the first place. Owen Mercer has genuine superhuman speed, and can move and throw his boomerangs faster than Gambit can move and throw his cards. He fought Nightwing and Dick dodged his boomerangs. And if the events of Batman #600 are to be given serious consideration, Bruce supposedly outclasses Dick so much that even with his vaunted agility, Dick cannot even touch Bruce unless Bruce allows him to do so.
And after seeing the scans, I can only assume that is the explosion you were talking about. I did not see it have an effect on Brick, only that he admitted that it hurt.
In an earlier issue of Green Arrow, Brick had one of his men fire an RPG straight at the place where he and a group of other Star City gangsters were assembled. IIRC, he did not even remark about whether the RPG affected him at all. He admitted that Batman's bomb thing hurt him. But the former example might have just been him not willing to admit if the RPG had hurt him or not, I suppose.
Not to take away from the fact that Batman willingly blew himself up, but I do not think it was an explosion that was lethal. Batman does not use lethal. I feel strongly that the explosion would not have killed Batman even without the armor. Severely injured maybe, but I doubt kill.
I wish I hadn't tossed away all those comics, because I think Ollie might have given Bruce a heads-up on Brick so he knew what he was going up against. But I could be wrong. Batman carries a lot of lethal things, actually. He carries them because while they might be lethal to regular humans like him, they are not lethal to the metahumans that he encounters.
Furthermore, I am almost certain that the armor will be able to provide some protection but getting hit will still hurt a great deal and Gambit has killed armored individuals before without much trouble.
Sure, but Gambit fought another armored individual recently and we know how that ended.
Yes they have shock devices that can hurt Remy but he is extremely fast. Faster than a normal human as a matter of a fact. Fast enough that he was able to keep up with Daredevil, who has superhuman reflexes and Gambit did it with his usual casual charm. I think hitting him may be a tad more difficult than your argument would lead me to believe.
It's not like people slower than Daredevil have never been able to lay a finger on Gambit. I could bring up Nightwing keeping up with Captain Boomerang, who is much faster than Gambit, or keeping up with Deathstroke, who is also faster than Gambit, or dodging a bolt from Starfire, who is also faster than Gambit, or dodging several blasts of heat vision from SuperBat, who is also faster than Gambit, but it's not like you need to have Boomerang/Slade/Starfire/SuperBat level speed to get your hands on Grayson.
All Team 1 knows about X-23 is that she can heal. They do not know the extent of her power so lethal attacks are still a no-no.
Funnily enough, Bruce currently fights a whole bunch of people who can heal, in fact the only thing he knows about these random people is that they can heal, and he electrocuted one of them just because he knew he could heal. His exact words were that their ability to heal meant he could play rough for a change.
team 2 wins hands down X-23 gauges the Bats eyes and Gambit blows Nightwings into oblivion or Gambit slips a charged card under the Bat's mask and blows his head off and X-23 rips Nightwings heart out
Hey look, another opportunity to drop a Brick scan!
In an earlier issue of Green Arrow, Brick had one of his men fire an RPG straight at the place where he and a group of other Star City gangsters were assembled. IIRC, he did not even remark about whether the RPG affected him at all. He admitted that Batman's bomb thing hurt him. But the former example might have just been him not willing to admit if the RPG had hurt him or not, I suppose
I think the bat team can actually take the slight majority here.
@CitizenBane said:
@Erik:
An explosion that can hurt Brick? If Batman's suit was normally that durable, I see no reason why he bothers to dodge gunfire at all. Or any number of other dangerous attacks.
It depends on who's writing, honestly. Some have him dodging gunfire, others have his suit deflecting bullets like it is the easiest thing in the world.
Gallery
As far as other dangerous attacks go, he has endured explosions several times as well.
Gallery
This is a more recent example from the DCnU, not sure whether it counts because of the pre-52 stipulation, but still:
Gallery
And it is not like an exploding card is something you can just run through even if the armor worn can take the blast. Normal cards hold charges that can and will send the target flying.
It depends on whether the cards will hit them in the first place. Owen Mercer has genuine superhuman speed, and can move and throw his boomerangs faster than Gambit can move and throw his cards. He fought Nightwing and Dick dodged his boomerangs. And if the events of Batman #600 are to be given serious consideration, Bruce supposedly outclasses Dick so much that even with his vaunted agility, Dick cannot even touch Bruce unless Bruce allows him to do so.
And after seeing the scans, I can only assume that is the explosion you were talking about. I did not see it have an effect on Brick, only that he admitted that it hurt.
In an earlier issue of Green Arrow, Brick had one of his men fire an RPG straight at the place where he and a group of other Star City gangsters were assembled. IIRC, he did not even remark about whether the RPG affected him at all. He admitted that Batman's bomb thing hurt him. But the former example might have just been him not willing to admit if the RPG had hurt him or not, I suppose.
Not to take away from the fact that Batman willingly blew himself up, but I do not think it was an explosion that was lethal. Batman does not use lethal. I feel strongly that the explosion would not have killed Batman even without the armor. Severely injured maybe, but I doubt kill.
I wish I hadn't tossed away all those comics, because I think Ollie might have given Bruce a heads-up on Brick so he knew what he was going up against. But I could be wrong. Batman carries a lot of lethal things, actually. He carries them because while they might be lethal to regular humans like him, they are not lethal to the metahumans that he encounters.
Furthermore, I am almost certain that the armor will be able to provide some protection but getting hit will still hurt a great deal and Gambit has killed armored individuals before without much trouble.
Sure, but Gambit fought another armored individual recently and we know how that ended.
Yes they have shock devices that can hurt Remy but he is extremely fast. Faster than a normal human as a matter of a fact. Fast enough that he was able to keep up with Daredevil, who has superhuman reflexes and Gambit did it with his usual casual charm. I think hitting him may be a tad more difficult than your argument would lead me to believe.
It's not like people slower than Daredevil have never been able to lay a finger on Gambit. I could bring up Nightwing keeping up with Captain Boomerang, who is much faster than Gambit, or keeping up with Deathstroke, who is also faster than Gambit, or dodging a bolt from Starfire, who is also faster than Gambit, or dodging several blasts of heat vision from SuperBat, who is also faster than Gambit, but it's not like you need to have Boomerang/Slade/Starfire/SuperBat level speed to get your hands on Grayson.
All Team 1 knows about X-23 is that she can heal. They do not know the extent of her power so lethal attacks are still a no-no.
Funnily enough, Bruce currently fights a whole bunch of people who can heal, in fact the only thing he knows about these random people is that they can heal, and he electrocuted one of them just because he knew he could heal. His exact words were that their ability to heal meant he could play rough for a change.
Citizenbane summed it up. People really underestimate Batman and call anyone who thinks he'll win "fanboys" when the truth is he would actually probably win.
Citizenbane summed it up. People really underestimate Batman and call anyone who thinks he'll win "fanboys" when the truth is he would actually probably win.
No one has called anyone else a "fanboy" here, so please don't bring down the quality of discussion by starting a conversation with that. People will be tempted to dispute it or defend it. It'll do no good. Let's keep this to feats and logical reasons. Thanks :)
Um, I'm sorry but you arn't my mother bud. I was referring to people in this discussion mind you, I just said people in general. So please, do not scold me.
It depends on who's writing, honestly. Some have him dodging gunfire, others have his suit deflecting bullets like it is the easiest thing in the world.
As far as other dangerous attacks go, he has endured explosions several times as well.
This is a more recent example from the DCnU, not sure whether it counts because of the pre-52 stipulation, but still:
I never said Batman did not have sections that are bulletproof. I know his cowl, chest and gloves and boots are protected. But those are the only things I have ever seen protected against bullets or blade attacks. In fact, I have seen Batman's suit torn on several occassions where he fought a particularly difficult opponent and aside from the parts I mentioned, there is no apparent protection underneath the cloth.
It depends on whether the cards will hit them in the first place. Owen Mercer has genuine superhuman speed, and can move and throw his boomerangs faster than Gambit can move and throw his cards. He fought Nightwing and Dick dodged his boomerangs. And if the events of Batman #600 are to be given serious consideration, Bruce supposedly outclasses Dick so much that even with his vaunted agility, Dick cannot even touch Bruce unless Bruce allows him to do so.
Are we certain that Owen Mercer can move faster than Gambit? I am not talking about travel speed like running. I am talking about reaction speed. The kind of thing that allows Gambit to block multiple point machine gun fire point blank and catch projectiles fired at hundreds of miles per hour at him right out of the air. Very clearly super human reaction speed. I fully suspect that Batman can dodge one or two cards, Gambit is no Bullseye. But to assume that Batman will never get hit despite Gambit's abilities is a bit of a stretch. And what would Batman's strategy be? Close the gap and take it H2H? Get up close and personal with the guy whose touch can kill him? Throw a batarang at him when surely Gambit could catch and send it back charged?
In an earlier issue of Green Arrow, Brick had one of his men fire an RPG straight at the place where he and a group of other Star City gangsters were assembled. IIRC, he did not even remark about whether the RPG affected him at all. He admitted that Batman's bomb thing hurt him. But the former example might have just been him not willing to admit if the RPG had hurt him or not, I suppose.
I do not doubt Brick's durability. I doubt the strength of the bomb and the design of the suit as you seem to be leading me to believe. Batman is no Iron Man. I am fully willing to accept that the armor can save his life in certain explosive situations. I am not willing to accept that his suit can sustain artillery attacks in sections other than the ones I have been shown are protected. It makes no sense that the cloth of Batman's suit is heavy duty armor when we have seen key areas of it damaged and destroyed as normal cloth would be.
I wish I hadn't tossed away all those comics, because I think Ollie might have given Bruce a heads-up on Brick so he knew what he was going up against. But I could be wrong. Batman carries a lot of lethal things, actually. He carries them because while they might be lethal to regular humans like him, they are not lethal to the metahumans that he encounters.
Okay. I will give you that.
Sure, but Gambit fought another armored individual recently and we know how that ended.
And if that armored individual had not been enhanced to super human capabilities, he might have been hurt or even killed.
It's not like people slower than Daredevil have never been able to lay a finger on Gambit. I could bring up Nightwing keeping up with Captain Boomerang, who is much faster than Gambit, or keeping up with Deathstroke, who is also faster than Gambit, or dodging a bolt from Starfire, who is also faster than Gambit, or dodging several blasts of heat vision from SuperBat, who is also faster than Gambit, but it's not like you need to have Boomerang/Slade/Starfire/SuperBat level speed to get your hands on Grayson.
Peak level agility can only take you so far and I suppose I would appeal to your reason on the matter over the grand, high-end feats. I would not go as far as to say that Dick could not tag these opponents in fair fights but I would go as far as to say that excluding moments of PIS/CIS, Dick SHOULD not be able to tag some of the above mentioned individuals. Especially when Batman, who so far outstrips Dick that Dick cannot lay a finger on him unless Bruce wills it, is only peak human speed.
Funnily enough, Bruce currently fights a whole bunch of people who can heal, in fact the only thing he knows about these random people is that they can heal, and he electrocuted one of them just because he knew he could heal. His exact words were that their ability to heal meant he could play rough for a change.
And when he goes in for a little rough play, X-23 could end up surprising him with several of her lethal assets. X-23 is roughly on par with Wolverine in speed and Wolverine is faster than Gambit. So without getting too into an entirely different debate, logic would dictate that X-23 is about as fast as Gambit, maybe a little faster. That in addition to her exclusively lethal training will make her a handful when pressed. I doubt she would start with her best though due to her newfound desire for humanity though, so I do believe there is a window of opportunity for her opponent to close her down since she will not be utilizing the full extent of her training initially but I also do not think that window is going to last long. Especially if Gambit is losing against his opponent.
Let's not forget Bats and Nightwing's stealth advantage. i'm sure they could either stall long enough to gain the upper hand or spring some traps for the two.
Let's not forget Bats and Nightwing's stealth advantage. i'm sure they could either stall long enough to gain the upper hand or spring some traps for the two.
Random encounter and it says in the OP team 1 cannot access any safehouses, vehicles or extra equipment. Also, X-23 has superhuman senses. I doubt they could sneak up on her if they tried to run around them at some point or even had a stealth edge.
The roofs of Gotham are not safehouses. And if they couldn't get X-23, they would seperate Gambit and X-23 and take out Gambit. Also, will her supersenses alert her to traps they set?
The roofs of Gotham are not safehouses. And if they couldn't get X-23, they would seperate Gambit and X-23 and take out Gambit. Also, will her supersenses alert her to traps they set?
I didn't say the rooftops were safehouses. I'm saying it's a random encounter and won't have a chance to set any traps or get any extra equipment to spring traps. X-23 and Gambit are perfectly capable of keeping on the team so they can't get too far away and Gambit isn't stupid enough to get separated in the first place. You make it seem as if team 1 has the time to get lost, get off of Laura's radar and come up with a plan to set traps everywhere.
Lol. Besides, even if traps were set up for Team 1, it is not like Gambit is incapable of handling them. What with him being a trained thief since birth and all. Traps are part of the deal.
You do realize the Batman and Dick are master escape artists? Did Gambit and X-23 travel the world and train extensively in how to track someone, let alone two of the greatest hide-and-go-seek players of all time?
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