you guys are absolutely the best seriously. i've been on comicvine for about 3 or 4 years now and both of you are debating my heart away. from reading the feats you guys provided, this match up is looking more like a permanent stalemate. Even though i was looking for a clear cut winner, i actually came away respecting each hero more b/c of the groundwork, sleuthing, and dedication you 2 have put forth on this thread. not enough good things can said so i'll just say thank you for a great debate battle.
@comicstooge: What a helluva come back, i thought Wolverine08 had you for sure. Bravo to both of you.
Hey, I don't go down so easily. ;)
No you do not, but.
He's just lucky he gets the last response so I can't continuously wreck his arguments. That silly punk kid can't handle me in all my skinny, pale glory.
@comicstooge: What a helluva come back, i thought Wolverine08 had you for sure. Bravo to both of you.
Hey, I don't go down so easily. ;)
No you do not, but.
He's just lucky he gets the last response so I can't continuously wreck his arguments. That silly punk kid can't handle me in all my skinny, pale glory.
@comicstooge: What a helluva come back, i thought Wolverine08 had you for sure. Bravo to both of you.
Hey, I don't go down so easily. ;)
No you do not, but.
He's just lucky he gets the last response so I can't continuously wreck his arguments. That silly punk kid can't handle me in all my skinny, pale glory.
Your muscles are nothing next to the might of my brain.
Well, this is it. The final stand in this whole slugfest. We’ve fought, spilled blood, but Captain America still stands tall as shown in the picture below. Let us end this shing ding in a memorable fashion, eh?
Physicality:
Starting back at your counter, I’m not really understanding what you are trying to achieve by pointing out that Captain America would lose to Deathstroke. I and most people would not disagree with you on that. My whole point with regards to using Slade as an example was to demonstrate that the physical difference between Batman and Captain America will rear its head eventually. Slade has straight up admitted tangling against Batman without his enhanced strength is not an endeavor he would like to try out anything soon. The only reason Slade would actually beat Captain America is due to having deadlier gear like his blast staff and the mentality for using it. Steve can match Slade physically tit for tat, and most of the showings you listed for Deathstroke are like you said, PIS, and I can replicate things like that with Steve pulling off stunts like one shotting Rhino with a kick. Steve is not as ruthless like Deathstroke, but has a physical edge over Batman that is just as high as the one that Slade has, and he has overwhelmed other street levelers via his physicality before. The physical edge is an X factor here. Even if you don’t want to go with the Deathstroke example, I’ll just throw you Batman’s fights against Azarel. Just like Steve, Azarel is an enhanced human, and has blatantly given the Dark Knight problems due to his aforementioned physicals as seen below:
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“That quickness again”-Batman
This instance with Azarel and Batman’s fights with Deathstroke over the years demonstrate that even if your technical skill does not match up to that of the Dark Knight’s, being in a different weight class all around physically gives you an edge against Batman. Bruce’s superior skill will only ease the problem that Steve’s superior physicals bring by only so much at the end of the day.
Now unto the other aspect of Captain America’s physicality, his durability. Firstly, your comparison to Captain America tanking punches from classic Namor to Batman being able to pull off a stalemate is completely unfound. Being able to stalemate a class 100+ threat is a completely different step up from simply taking a short beating from a class 20. Even if the two aforementioned bricks are pretty similar characters :) Secondly, your comparison to classic comics is also extremely flawed when looked at thoroughly. For one, comics are still silly today. Peak humans are still capable of bench pressing 1,000 lbs., Wolverine is still able to heal from nothing but a skeleton even though the scientific principle that you can’t create matter from nothing should be stopping him every damn time. Things haven’t become any more realistic frankly. The comparison to Punisher fighting Captain America is flawed. Frank has a history of being able to fight foes out of his weight class due to tactics, grit(Cliché, I know), and context filled fights. Even then, Frank is not comparable whatsoever to Captain America in the department I am addressing regarding Captain America, physicality. Frank can run at 60 MPH per hour, he can’t see bullets move at slow motion, he doesn’t have a healing factor, he isn’t sub human physically like Steve is. Simple as that. Finally, Steve hasn’t received any major bump in terms of abilities since classic days. He is still portrayed today as he was back during the classic times, as a man whom is above humans in terms of capabilities.
Classic Captain America:
Calls himself superhuman, but not to the degree of another man.
Modern Captain America:
Modern Steve is described as being the peak of human evolution.
You bring me one low showing of Captain America getting knocked out in one punch by Agent Venom? I bring you Steve being able to tank a punch from the angry 50 tonner Warrior Woman that sent him flying though the air, and not only stay conscious, but also complete an acrobatic flip through the air unto Black Panther's plane.
Agent Venom knocking out Captain America does not contradict Steve being able to jump out of planes and falling from great heights since Captain America does this stuff consistently. Why, here's just one more showing of the aforementioned durability.
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Steve creates craters just by landing on the ground.
Captain America has also been able to translate the durability showings to combat. For one, while Batman's striking power can indeed injure Captain America, he's already shown that he can take low level superhuman blows and keep going on. This example from the recent Dimension Z storyline exemplifies my point.
Remember Princess Zola, the woman with superhuman strength great enough to rip down steel doors?
Steve was first able to take a superhuman kick in the back, and even though he thought he couldn't take any more damage, had to be beaten in the face some more before he was put down.
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This was all done with Steve and his armor incredibly weakened from their extended time in Dimension Z.
He has also been able to take an extended beating from the Red Skull whom was wearing a superhumanly strong suit and have an entire building blown up on him.
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After all of this, all Steve needed was a few bandages and a sling.
Unto your claims that Captain America's physicality never play a role in his street level fights. For one, I do think you need to take one more good look at Captain America's fight with Batroc that I posted in one of my earliers posts.
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By time panel three had come around, Hawkeye had been removed from the fight by the slippery fight that was hindering both him and Captain America. Batroc had a fair one on one chance at Captain America, and what did he do? He got one shotted. Simple as that.
Steve has also broken the ribs of Mr. Hyde at the time that he was portrayed as a eleven tonner.
All those enhanced human physicals also allowed Captain America to manhandle the the 10 ton mutant Beast while he was mind controlled.
I mean, even John Steele, the 40 ton super soldier whom was durable enough to be completely bullet proof and tank punches from Valkyrie was actually bleeding and suffering noticeable discomfort from the force Captain America's enhanced human strikes bring.
With Daredevil being able to hang with Captain America physically meaning that Batman is easily capable of doing the same, this looks like an alright assertion at first glance, but one must consider how Daredevil managed to hang with Captain America. Look at their recent fight:
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Looking at their fight, there is one physical talent that let Daredevil hang with Captain America so aptly, his top tier avoidance. Due to his accident and the superhuman balance it granted him, Matt is one of the best avoidance men around Marvel street land along with the likes of Spider-Man. Batman is in no way whatsoever the same league as Daredevil in the avoidance or agility regard. He's going to have the luxury of having to engage Captain America up close unlike Matt did, and has to rely on his inferior physicals all around to try pull him through the slugfest.
With Captain America's Nuke showing, Nuke at the time that Captain America stomped him isn't comparable to what he was when he was facing Winter Soldier and Falcon. He was actually amped on physically enhancing red pills.
And we all now know what happened when Nuke tried to trade fistcuffs with a Captain America intent on saving a life:
Those enhanced human blows played a role once again.
All in all, Captain America is simply a physical weight class above Batman. Plain and simple really, and it's going to make a pretty big difference in this fight.
Skill:
For one, I do want to remind you that I am not trying to imply that since Captain America defeated that fighter whom had catalogued every fighting style in the world means that he will defeat Bruce. I'd also like to point out that Batman's feat of beating that cybernetic super solider is not very impressive in regards to his fight with Captain America. For one, that super soldier was clearly being thrown off by Batman's fighting prowess. Now, I'm not going say that Steve is going to be entirely unimpressed with Bruce's skill set, but he's been doing this superhero gig log enough that he's not going to be fondling over his skills, and get thrown off by his prowess.
With Bruce's nerve strike tanking ability, I'd argue that considering that Captain America has injured more durable beings than Batman like Professor Hulk:
and even US Agent:
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That his nerve strikes will be pretty hindering to Batman, and once he does injure Bruce, he won't allow him the time to try recuperate and fix himself.
And then for one more showing of Steve's skill, after he got knocked down once by Shang Chi in their sparring match in Secret Avengers, he was able to return the favor to Shang just one page later:
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Then in regards to Captain America's showing against Spider-Man in Civil War, it it wholly legit in every way possible. For one, I was not trying to insinuate that Captain America could beat Spider-Man in a one on one fight. Secondly, strategy is not just about doing well in even fights. It's about taking advantages of mishaps and slip ups of your opponent and turning them in your favor. Captain America should great strategic skill during with his fight by using his knowledge of his fighting style and the fact that Peter was holding back to his advantage to one up Parker in that instance. Before I leave the skill section, I'd also argue that Captain America's fight against Crossbones in Streets of Poison is also another great showing of his battle sense.
(Posting again for reference)
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Here, Steve was able to recognize the disadvantage his lack of physical enhancements presents, and adapts to the situation at hand to win and not even give off the fact that he is lacking his physical enhancements to boot.
Then two more things regarding Captain America's strategic ability and his adapting. For one, he doesn't just adapt to fighting styles only. No, Steve's combat genius has allowed him to adapt to battle situations as well as the aforementioned fighting styles. Just look again at the example with Kang the Conqueror.
Captain America had never been in zero gravity combat up until that point on the ship, but with only a few tries at the zero gravity combat, he was already doing it better than people who had been at it for decades. This means that Batman can't try throw Steve off by pulling him into situations he has never experienced before. He'll step back, and be at it like a pro in no time.
For my final point regarding Captain America's strategic ability, I bring up this early tidbit I presented earlier in my argument. The fact that Captain America's brain works faster than that of a regular human's. Shown below:
This means that in terms of combat, Captain America will always be one step ahead of Batman in terms of quick thinking.
Gear:
Even though I do acknowledge that Batman will be using gear throughout this fight as it is a staple of his abilities, I would like to point out that there have been instances where he has forgone the heavier parts of his gear like the bombs, etc. to user lighter things like batarangs, or engage up close in a close quarters style fight. And inn regards due to you mentioning that Bruce got new gear during the 2000,s, every fight here is post 2000.
He has failed to use the gear twice against Philo Zeiss.
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Both fights here occurred after 2000.
He has also failed to utilize it in his JLA #38 fight with Prometheus.
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This fight with Prometheus was in exactly 200.
He's again failed to use the gear against Lady Shiva during the time she was mind controlled by Gorilla Grodd.
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This fight with Lady Shiva was from 2003.
Like I said before, I feel that Bruce tends to utilize the higher end stuff of his gear when facing opponents that have massive physical advantages over him.
Like with Frankestein:
Or with Mr. Freeze:
And for one thing regarding Batman's suit, even though it is bulletproof, it still has been destroyed greatly enough by Deadshot's hollowpoint rounds to completely dislocate Batman's shoulder and break his ribs.
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Meanwhile, like I mentioned earlier, Steve's suit has been able to take a blast from a Builder whom was using the same blasts to push back the class 100+ Hyperion with the aforementioned blasts.
So I would still say that Steve's Marvel NOW armor has a pretty noticeable edge in terms of toughness over Batman's Batsuit.
With my final thoughts on gear, I though I have some nitpicks in regards to Captain America's shield being disabled. For one, the instance of Punisher being able to block Captain America's shield is purely PIS. I mean, unless Frank's guns have recently been upgraded to adamantium, there is no reason whatsoever that the shield shouldn't have easily blown through it and cut his head off of his shoulders. With Hawkeye, just because Clinton can shoot the shield put of the sky does not in any way mean Bruce can replicate such a feat. For one, Hawkeye's accuracy feats are for superior to that of Bruce's. Aim and accuracy are his two shticks. Just look at how he still has world class aim with one arm:
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I have seen nothing from Bruce that puts him on this level of world class trick shooting.
With Gambit, remember that world class avoidance guy I mentioned in my post earlier, Daredevil? Yeah, well Remy is actually sporting avoidance skill that's even on par with Daredevil. He even managed to stalemate him in a fight using the combination of his superhuman agility and avoidance about ten years ago in his own solo book. So again, Gambit being able to agilely maneuver around the shield does not equate to Batman being able to do so. This also applies to Batroc the Leaper as well. Extremely agile based fighting style with his Savate.
There are also many instances of the shield being used with extreme tactical skill to give Steve an edge.
He tricked Spider-Man during Civil War by using the shield as bait to set up another flurry of attacks.
He used his shield to alter the trajectory of the genius combatant Cable.
He has also used as a decoy to throw Wolverine off guard.
And before you say that Wolverine is not a very intelligent combatant:
His brain functions during battle work at the equivalent of an Olympic athlete completing a gold medal winning routine while simultaneously beating four chess computers in their head.
The shield has also been used with extreme tactical skill to cage in Captain America's opponents:
And with Captain America sporting ridiculous aim at this level:
Tactics like the ones shown above are going to be effective.
Conclusion:
In conclusion, this has been a great CaV and one of the most evenly matched fights around Marvel/DC land. I believe Captain America can get a slight majority over DC's Dark Knight for the following reasons. Firstly, as I have shown in succinct detail throughout this debate, Captain America is an all around physically superior specimen to Batman. No, he's not just a peak human like Bruce, he's a legit superhuman foe with the feats to back it up. Running at 60 MPH per hour, seeing bullets in slow motion, pulling down helicopters, throwing a shield hard enough to decapitate 16-20 ton tank turrets, be thrown unto bricks like John Steele by War Machine and bounce up fine are things real peak humans in comics simply cannot do, but Captain America does on a regular basis. In terms of technical skill, I did admit from the get go that Batman is Cap's superior in that regard, but this is not a crippling disadvantage. Steve is still He's still praised as one of the best hand to handers around Marvel land, and has the showings to back it up. Steve's shown that he can bang out of his physical weight class with physical bricks like John Steele with commendable performances. He's been able to defeat competent fighters like Crossbones without the aid of his enhancements. Steve doesn't have the technical skill of Bruce, but he's a genius combat. He's walking around with a top notch ability to instinctively adapt to any fighting style an opponent brings to the table, and a mind enhanced to the point where he can remember every military tactic and apply it to any situation. In regards to gear, doesn't have the variety that Batman has, but I think the shield is still a very versatile, and dangerous weapon that Captain America has shown that he can wield with a sub human accuracy. I think everything noted here is enough for the First Avenger to win.
Alright, now while my opponent has done some ridiculously good debating on behalf of Captain America, I still firmly believe this is Bruce's fight to lose, if the gap between them is so small it's practically nonexistent. Batman, while not on Cap's level physically, is perfectly capable of contending with Rogers' enhanced human physicals utilizing a combination of his highly impressive peak human physicals and his superior skill. While true, he has struggled against guys like Azrael (on occassion - he's had mixed showings) and Deathstroke, it's worth noting that neither of these guys are Captain America and Bruce didn't utilize tech or stealth as he's been shown to use in plenty of other fights. Cap's adaptability in combat is something Bruce has shown he can keep up with, as evidenced by his fights with Cassandra Cain (who has the ability to read the moves of her opponent and can also copy their moves, much like Taskmaster) and Philo Zeiss, a guy will full-blown metahuman senses who viewed the world in slow motion and has already studied Batman, yet he was totally unable to beat the Dark Knight. In terms of tactical skill, Bruce has formed complex, multi-layered plans while in combat, analysed and figured out the weaknesses in an opponent that was blocking the Flash's movement, he's recognized styles with a glance and spends practically every moment of a fight studying his opponent, figuring out their strategy and finding ways to win. On top of that, his vast wealth of gear ensures that he'll always have something to surprise Cap with, whether it be a grenades, smoke, a taser, grapple gun, tranquilizers, liquid nitrogen pellets or any one of the magnificent toys Bruce has in his belt (it's worth noting two examples you used in your last post for gear are of the New 52 and aren't applicable). Furthermore, it's worth noting that Bruce simply has a major wildcard to fall back on, with stealth. If he begins to feel pressured by Cap's assault, he can adjust his strategy and go ninja mode, striking Cap from the shadows with everything he's got and wearing him down for the victory. While the shield my be trouble, Bruce is certainly fast enough to dodge it, note the trajectory and remove it from play using a grapple gun or another such gadget. Cap might have the ability to use his shield to crash through trucks, but being the outstanding pillar of virtue that he is, he'd never use it.
Overall, I think Bruce simply has a wider array of ways to win besides simply beating his opponent into submission and he's got the intelligence to use them when the chips are down. If they fought 100 times, honestly, I think it may come down to Bruce winning 51/100, that's how close the fight is and I think we've done our best to portray it that way.
@wolverine08: @comicstooge: @reply me again so this is in my notifications. I won't have time to read it right now all though it does look interesting.
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