@childoftheatom: You mean my CaV using Daredevil vs Bane?
Batman (CS) vs Captain America (W08): VOTING!
Ok son, here we go for round 4 of one of Marvel and DC’s most famous matchups! Captain America is still going strong! He isn’t about to drop to this Dark Avenger!
Physicality:
Now we go going back to the topic of physicality, I don’t think you completely understood what I was trying to accomplish by referencing that earlier fight between Deathstroke and Batman. I don’t think Steve is as brutal as Slade, but he is someone willing to fight dirty to get an edge. He’s demonstrated so in his fight against Wolverine in which he has often cheated. I’m also not trying to argue that Steve could drop Batman sans physical enhancements. Oh no, the enhancements are a crucial part to leading Steve towards a victory. My whole point in referencing Deathstroke is to prove that the physical edge that I have demonstrated that Captain America holds over Batman will play a decent factor in this fight. Going back to Deathstroke, if you want a recent fight, check out their tussle in Detective Comics #710.
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Like I already mentioned, Deathstroke like Captain America really doesn’t have Batman’s technical edge in regards to martial arts. He’s training history and showings of skill are limited in comparison to Bruce, but his physical stats advantage gave him a clear edge throughout their encounters. In here, he wasn’t even trying to fight Batman. As indicated by him blatantly telling Batman, “Your last free shot Batman.” Despite this, he still managed to completely lay out The Dark Knight not once, but twice. This was all written under Chuck Dixon, one of the more premier Batman writers of the late 90s and early 2000s I might add. Now I am pretty sure you can get scenarios of Batman hanging with metas via his equipment and skill, but I do think his fights with Deathstroke illustrate that Steve’s technical skill while inferior Bruce’s compounded with his enhanced physicals can let him hang aptly compete with Batman on equal to, or superior scale.
Going back to analyze the aspect of durability, I do find multiple problems with your claims around the aspects of Captain America’s durability. First and foremost, the instances I posted are in no way “obviously high end” to be frank. The only real one I could say would constitute the idea of high end was his ability to take a beating from Namor, and I did even note that Namor was far weaker than during that time period than he is portrayed as of today. There dozens upon dozens of similar showings to the ones that I posted earlier that prove they are just consistent with Captain America.
Looking at his showing of being thrown into the massive brick John Steele by the class 100 War Machine, Steve has many other showings of falling from incredible distances that Batman could not hope to accomplish on his best day. One of my other favorite durability showings for Captain America is showing below.
Here, Steve while chatting with Nick Fury accidentally fell out of the Helacarrier they were aboard on. Captain America proceeded to fall over the borough of Manhattan at over 100 MPH per hour. When Steve finally completed this massive fall through the skies of Manhattan, he crashed right unto the class 100 brick the The Thing. After all this, Captain America still got up unfazed from this.
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Steve also has other numerous instances of jumping from high places only to land completely fine which come from Ed Brubaker’s Captain America run.
Here, after locating where the kidnapped Sharon Carter was, Steve was escorted to where she was via helicopter, and he jumped off using a helicopter for the first part then releasing himself into several men without injury.
Steve has even fallen from a helicopter without showing any signs of injury.
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These instances all show that Captain America’s feat of landing on John Steele is not high end, but a consistent feat of his durability.
Then in regards to Captain America’s healing factor, your referencing to Steve’s assassination during Civil War is somewhat of context. Steve did indeed die, but it wasn’t from that single shot. He needed to be shot three more times in the chest before he kicked the bucket. Then with Deadpool, I don’t really see what’s unimpressive about Steve getting his face bloodied by Wade when he nonchalantly karate chops trees in half.
If any non enhanced human like Batman had been forced to try to tank from someone like that whom was pissed, they’d probably end up with a dented in face let alone a bloody one. That instance if anything is a great testament to Steve’s enhanced durability. Even then, the healing factor has been shown to take instant effect before. Just look at Captain America vol 6 #11. While on escort mission, Steve got shot in the leg, and the only thing he needs to do is to cauterize the wound.
He even says what he mentioned after John Steele broke his leg:
"I heal fast."
Looking at your comments about common street levelers being able to take Steve’s blows and not get overwhelmed by his physicality, I am going to have to disagree. For every fight Crossbones has where he keeps up with Steve, he has fights like this one in Streets of Poison where he ends up getting put down succinctly.
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This was a Steve with no enhancements to boot.
I also wouldn’t say that Batroc tanking a lot of hits from Steve is very consistent. He too has been absolutely wrecked by a serious Steve before. Case in point:
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Another Steve being able to physically dominate an inferior physical specimen comes from his fight with Daredevil from Streets of Poison. Steve here completely walked all over Matt during this fight and left him barely able to move.
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Granted, there is context around this fight and I will not omit it. Matt had been out of operations for a while, but was pretty good performance wise, and Steve was completely out of his mind on drugs. I also don’t think Steve is going to start going all out like that in this fight, but I do think it serves as a reminder what he can do when he’s letting loose. I would also like to remind you that writer Ed Brubaker has noted that Batman is more comparable to Daredevil physically than he is Steve, and you saw what happened when he wasn’t playing around.
He also recently completely pummeled the insane super soldier Nuke in Captain America vol 7 #14 after he became enraged when Nuke attempted to murder a news reporter. Pounded his face into the ground until Nuke was incapacitated really.
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Just how durable was Nuke? Durable enough to tank point blank military tank fire in the face and body while being completely unfazed.
He also tanked point blank grenades in the face as shown in his fight with Captain America, but despite all this, when an enraged Steve wanted Nuke to feel his punches, he got the beating of his life.
He also one shotted Gambit after he tanked a point blank explosion from him in Avengers vs X-Men #2.
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It appears to me that contrary to what your post insinuated, regular street levelers don't have such an easy time tanking those punches from Steve's enhanced human fists.
Just one more fight in which demonstrates his enhanced human striking power is from Steve Rogers: Super Soldier #3. Just after beating three super soldier serum enhanced men while he was 95 lbs. through pure skill, Steve got exposed to the Vita Ray projector again and took on more Super Soldier Serum enhanced men.
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I would like to call special attention to these words by Steve, “I don’t hold back. There’s no time.”Now, these are all super soldier serum enhanced men with enhanced physicals, including durability and they’re getting wrecked and even one shotted by a Steve whom wants to end things as quickly as possible. I think this shows something important here, Steve doesn’t start every fight trying to blow off everyone’s face. This why we’ve got non enhanced humans being able to hang with him a bit. He’s got morals, but when he does need to cut loose a bit, he’s a complete force. I know you’re probably going to ask me “Why would Steve cut loose a bit here?” I do think that you have shown that Batman is a formidable enough combatant that Steve is going to have to let loose a little more than usual to get the job done. If Steve wants Batman to feel his physical superiority, Batman is most definitely going to feel it.
Fighting skill:
Moving unto fighting skill, I do think that you need to look at Steve’s feat of defeating a martial artist whom had catalogued every fighting style that existed more deeply. The whole reason the author even mentions that the fighter had catalogued every fighting style was to establish his skill. You can argue if he mastered those fighting styles or not, but the wealth of knowledge itself made him a formidable opponent on its own.
Looking at more skill feats for Steve, he has managed to defeat the imperfect Namor clone N2 created by Mister Sinister.
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Mister Sinister himself also was completely shocked by Steve’s ability to beat such a dangerous foe as shown by his dialogue after witnessing the fight.
He also recently got the upperhand on Princess Zola in Captain America vol 5 #7.
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Princess Zola was equipped with a move reading ability via her use of the fighting style Taychon Fu that I would say that is very similar to that of Cassandra Cain’s. I would also add that at this time, Steve was in pretty bad physical condition. He had been in Dimension Z for 12 years with barely any rest to fuel him. Still, he was able to gain the upperhand on such a formidable fighter and even save a mutate while he was at it.
I already mentioned this before, but I'll do so again. Steve can play the pressure point game all day with Bruce.
He's affected Professor Hulk with pressure point attacks.
He's caused the 10 ton Super Soldier John Steele to scream in pain from his use of pressure points.
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He even left half of Spider-Man's body paralyzed with a pressure point attack during Civil War.
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With Steve’s tactical ability in fights, the idea that it only plays a role against dumb brutes is horribly incorrect. Just look at his fight with Spider-Man during Civil War.
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Steve had been able to study Peter’s fighting style beforehand, and showed his tactical ability by leading Peter with his shield only to set him up for some nerve strikes that paralyzed his whole lower half of his body. Now, Peter is a complete genius with the potential to have intellect that would rival that of Reed Richards himself along with being noted many a times to have an extremely innovative fighting style to boot, and Steve was able to one up him here with his tactical ability. Peter even notes how Steve is controlling him through this fight, and he can't let him do so if he wants to win. Granted, Peter was suffering from a bit of heroworship during this fight, but it is still impressive nonetheless.
The tactical ability of Steve has been mentioned many a times by geniuses. I posted these instances earlier, but I’ll do so again.
Black Panther, the eigth smartest man on Marvel Earth was astonished by how Steve adapted to any fighting style thrown at him.
Kang the Conqueror another all around genius(Including in warfare) was flabbergasted by Steve’s ability to adapt to combat situations instinctively on the fly.
Look at Steve’s comment here about how his enhanced brain aids his tactical ability as he talked to a young soldier.
"My mind was enhanced to the point that I could remember any military tactic and apply it to any situation."
Steve’s tactical ability is great enough to have effects in combat situations and be recognized by geniuses of the highest degree. It will be a factor here along with his physicals, skill, and shield.
Gear:
Finally moving unto gear, I do think that you misunderstood what I meant about Batman and his use of his gear. I fully believe that Bruce will make use of his gear throughout this fight. It is one of his shticks overall really. I'm not going to seriously try argue that someone as smart as Bruce will have his gear to exploit, but won't. What I was trying to get at is that Batman will not throw out some of the higher end things in his arsenal because he usually does not unless a special situation comes along. Like with his heavier gear like his cryto pellets, tasers, etc. don't come out to play unless he is facing someone with a massive physical edge that he can't deal with in a straightforward way like with Killer Croc or Clayface.
Just look here with one of his famous fights with Bane.
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I use Bane as an example here because he like Captain America is physically superior to Batman(I would say that Steve's physical edge is higher though), but it isn't to the point that he can't trade fistcuffs with him. Because of this, Batman does not use some of the more extensive parts of his gear that I already mentioned. He does use some lower end gear like his batarangs though I might add.
Another perfect example is with Batman's fight against Brick that you posted. Brick is massively durable, and someone whom is far more physically potent than Captain America can hope to be. Far too physically imposing for Batman to deal with in a traditional fashion. Thatis when Bruce strategically making repeated use of higher end gear like those high grade explosives. I have succinctly proven that Steve is Bruce's physical superior by quite a bit, but I don't see the physical difference being so incredible that Bruce will feel like having to resort to higher end gear.
In regards to Steve's gear, I want to touch on his Marvel Now Armor. For Marvel's semi reboot in Marvel NOW, Steve got some fancy new armor that is shown below.
This armor along with Steve's already incredible natural durability and recovery, just further cements his vast durability advantage over Batman.
With his new armor so far, Steve has managed to tank a blast from the Avenger villain Aleph whom was even pushing the class 100 Hyperion with her blasts.
Steve got up fine from this hit in the next page and continued the fight. The new armor's durability was also greatly showcased through Rick Remender's recent Dimension Z storyline. Dimension Z was a space time dimension controlled by Arnim Zola that Steve got trapped in for the equivalent of 12 Earth years.
I already posted this fight earlier to highlight Steve's skill, but his fight with Princess Zola does highlight the armor's durability as well.
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Steve was able to take an extremely hard kick from Zola and keep going.
He was also to tank multiple punches from an angry Zola as well.
Just to let you see how strong Zola is, she easily rips steel doors in half.
He was also able to keep up with, and take a beating from Zola creatures whom were even stronger than him due to use of his super soldier serum, and negatively charged gamma rays.
He also fell from a massively high height during this time, and got right bakck up.
He fell from another great height, and got up again.
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This was also all done with a freshly torn rotator cuff.
He even impaled himself in the chest with a spear to get rid of the Zola virus in him, and was still able to continue.
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Wrapping up my look at the Marve NOW Armor, I would like to remind you that a majority of these feats were accomplished with the armor and Steve not being at the best of their abilities due to their 12 years stuck in Dimension. Steve's armor is far superior to that of Batman's.
Well, that's it for my second to last response. Make your last response good, Steve will be waiting!
Dayum the debate is back and more fired up than ever. This should be entertaining :P
Time for my response, at last!
Physicals
Alright man, while the Deathstroke example definitely proves that a skilled opponent with enhanced stats will present heavy challenges for the Dark Knight, I think there's one thing we should take into account.
Now in regards to your points on Cap's durability.
I think the Namor showing is still a bit sketchy. How much weaker was Namor during this time? 10-tons? 20-tons?
How about this high-end feat from Bruce?
In regards to Steve's feats of durability involving falling from great distances, I don't think they match up to his feats against characters in an actual fight.
In your first example, that looks to be like an example of the craziness of older comics.
Even looking at the dialogue, it's pretty clear the Thing somehow "broke" Cap's fall (doesn't make sense to me either, but hey, it was a classic showing).
You want a modern example of Cap's ability to take hits from even high-end street/mid-tier superhumans?
Kinda contradicts the whole "jumping from planes and falling from great heights" type of feats, right?
Not only that, but the evidence of Deadpool's striking feats against Cap's durability only help solidify my point.
It's been said before and I'll say it again, if Cap can't translate his crazy high showings and feats against the environment, they mean little in his battles against street level heroes.
And Bruce has a way to match Cap's healing factor.
Crazy endurance.
Overall though, I think I've made it clear that while Bruce will indeed fatigue throughout the fight, it will not hinder him much (if at all). Steve's healing factor and enhanced endurance won't allow him to outlast Bruce, given the fact that, let's be honest, this fight won't last long enough for endurance to be a major factor.
Now, in regards to my point about Crossbones losing to a depowered Cap, it was pretty clear Steve was able to beat Rumlow due to utilizing techniques he never would have otherwise due to being depowered. So the "for every fight" argument doesn't really hold up when Brock has done better against Cap in every other fight they've had.
Especially when you consider that classic Brock was owning Bullseye and defeated Daredevil (albeit off-panel), so it's potentially also somewhat of a low showing.
And those scans of Batroc don't show Batroc getting "wrecked at all". Cap got one hit in against Batroc when he was distracting beating up Hawkeye and then he got as he put it "cut to ribbons" by Batroc's staff. I see no ownage going on in those scans.
You want ownage?
That fight basically debunks itself. Matt was heavily out of practice (a fact you even highlighted) and Cap was practically blood lusted.
Are you forgetting that they stalemated in Waid's run of Daredevil, when Matt was actually in fighting form and Cap wasn't bloodlusted? Cap couldn't touch Matt when Steve himself was the aggressor and DD was trying to reason with him. Oh, and Matt's radar sense was compromised due to some sort of gear Cap used against him before the fight began. I can dig up scans, if you'd like.
If Bruce is comparable to DD, and DD managed to hold his own against Cap just fine, then I have nothing to worry about, homie.
Those Nuke scans are highly impressive, no doubt. Lets not forget however, that Nuke's been doubled teamed by Bucky and Falcon on one occasion:
I've never really seen any impressive durability feats from Gambit, to be honest with you.
If Steve cuts loose and starts to overwhelm Bruce (assuming such a thing happens), there is something he can do. In fact, this little factor is actually my ace in the hole...
Stealth
This is essentially one of Bruce's greatest attributes.
Let's see what he's capable of in this regard, shall we?
So if Bruce decides to go ninja mode, I don't see Steve having too much of a chance at countering such a tactic.
Meanwhile, if Steve attempts to try to use stealth on Wayne, that won't work, considering Cassandra Cain (someone who's trained in the art of assassination her whole life and is slightly superior to Bruce when it comes to speed and technical skill) is incapable of sneaking up on Batman:
Checkmate.
Skill:
While Cap's nerve striking is impressive, Bruce does have a number of counters.
All things considered, Bruce's superior skill and insane knowledge of nerve strikes will allow him to recognize, counter and avoid Steve's utilization of nerve strikes.
And for the record, if we're talking high end showings of nerve strikes, Bruce has hurt freaking Wonder Woman!:
I'm about to head off to bed, so I'll respond to the rest of your points in a few hours.
Skill (continued):
There are still more examples of Bats' skill I've yet to show.
And anyway, that guy who supposedly cataloged every fighting style on Earth isn't Batman. Simply knowing a number of styles doesn't mean he knows how to utilize them nor does he clearly have Bruce's level of physical ability that allow Wayne to contend with enhanced humans.
Also, does this nameless martial artist have any other feats to his name then getting steamrolled by Cap?
Gear
Alright, I think an analyse of the Batsuit is long over-due.
On top of that, the suit is equipped with a multitude of sensors that ensure that if Bruce uses stealth on Cap, he'll be able to keep constant track of Rogers.
And let's not forget how Bruce can turn himself into a human taser, so that if Cap touches him, he'll get electrocuted.
And while you did show Cap getting hit with a "lethal" blow of electricity, it did take a LOT out of him:
And Hawkeye disabled him, as scans from a previous post show. I think it's pretty clear that powerful electrical attacks (such as the ones utilized by Batman) weaken Cap significantly.
Tactical skill:
I'm not sure the Spiderman feat is all that applicable to this fight. Parker's fought stronger, faster and more durable opponents and he's handled them fine. And I think "slight" hero-worship is a bit of an understatement considering Peter was practically kissing the ground Steve was walking on. He was clearly holding back and especially considering that he was amped by the Iron Spider suit, he should've demolished Cap with relative ease.
In a no-context fight against a Spiderman who's actually trying to his hardest to fight him, this is how Steve will end up looking:
And for the record, Spidey isn't nearly as good at studying opponents as Bruce is. He's recognized fighting styles in master martial artists, noticed the slightest discrepancies in the way his opponent fights and has adapting accordingly.
Bruce has even figured out advanced strategies and weaknesses in not only his opponent, but all the opposing members of a team the entire JLA was fighting against (the Hypotheticals) while fighting the living embodiment of hand-to-hand combat (as scans I previously posted depict).
And let I remind you that Bruce has indeed brought down opponents with enhanced brains.
Hell, Bruce has figured out the attack methods and patterns of combatants so far out out of his class it isn't funny, including the likes of Tezumak being that was blocking every move the Flash made.
All in all, I think in this particular area, Bruce indeed does hold an edge in terms of creativity, ingenuity and analyzing opponents on the fly and coming up with some rather unorthodox strategies. I mean sure, Cap's memorized every military strategy there is, but how would these work against Batman when his strategy will be specifically tailored to countering everything Steve throws his way from the moment the fight starts, thanks to his impressive deductive ability?
Cap adapts to fighting forms, which is highly impressive and will serve him well throughout the fight. However, Bats adapts to entire pitched battles involving multiple combatants on various fields all with different strengths and weaknesses.
I think Bruce's advantage is clear.
Countering the Shield
Alright, now while the shield throw is one of Steve's most common maneuvers, it's not as effective as people like to think:
It's pretty clear that if Cap attempts to throw his shield at Bruce, his attack either won't connect or he'll be losing it, given the speed feats I've already shown for him and how they match up against other similarly fast street levelers who've dodged and/or caught the shield.
Now anyway, before I wrap up this argument I want to highlight the whole "Bruce doesn't use his gadgets" argument. The fight you keep referencing with Bane was from from Detective Comics #701 - Gotham's Scourge, published in 1996. I think it's worth noting that a lot of Batman's advanced gear wasn't even invented until the 2000's, which is around the time that he started to utilize it a lot more. Particularly after he returned from him little trip through time and found his technology upgraded by Dick Grayson and Damian.
In any case, Batman uses his gear against threats that aren't so ridiculously out of his league such as Scarecrow, Man-Bat, Azrael, Black Canary etc. In actual fact, a taser is one of Bruce's most generic weapons considering he uses them against common, generic street thugs. And regardless, I see no reason why Bruce wouldn't attempt to utilize a high-end piece of gear (which, by the way, he can simply turn down the intensity of, hence why his explosives didn't leave Black Mask a big red stain all over the alley-way or regular humans don't get cooked like a Christmas ham when hit with his taser) such as an eletrical attack (through his suit, grapple gun or batarang) or light explosives or gas or even his grapple gun (something he's shown to use to incap street level threats that has a 15 ton breaking strain as shown previously).
Anyway, I'm finally done. I await your final response @wolverine08.
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@wolverine08 stomps He got this battle Epic Win!
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