Batman (CS) vs Big Boss (Nickzambuto)

Well I've had plenty of practice.

@nickzambuto: Crap, I lost my post. Do you mind waiting another day or so?

I don't seem to have a choice do I? :P

@comicstooge
gets my vote.

They're not done yet.

They aren't done.

@wolverine08: @jashro44: Doesn't matter. Arkham games are my favourite along side with MUA and I have played MGS4.It wasn't that good.

Well, at least you're willing to admit your bias.....

@don_quixote: Your suppose to vote based on who debated better.......Not which character had the better game.

I know,man :p

Arkham games are more simplistic, sounds like you were too dumb for MGS4.

MGS4 isn't the most difficult game out there smart@ss.....

It certainly requires a bit more thinking than you seem willing to put out.

This doesn't mean it is a better game at all.GTA series require less thinking than Arkham series.Yet,they are rated as the best video-games in history (by the fans).

Alright

@comicstooge: See, I beat your battle for ya :P (kidding)

Round 2:

Physicals:

Me displaying Bruce's training method was just the framework for the rest of my argument. It wasn't actually something that was used as evidence to make him superior to Boss.

Still, the result of Bruce's training turned him into an absolute beast as you'll see later. Bruce didn't spend a few weeks doing a entrance exam, he spent every day of his life for many years getting trained by the best and pushing his body to the limit.

You want examples of Bruce's speed in combat with other characters?

Here you go...

He sidestepped and countered Azrael, despite the fact that Jean-Paul was a bullet timer himself and could deep pace with Deathstroke in a sword fight, to the point where they battled to a stalemate (the fight was inconclusive because a telepath put Slade to sleep mid-battle).

Gallery

Kept good pace with Cassandra Cain in a fight. It's worth noting both of them were bloodlusted on drugs (it didn't seem to hinder either of them at all). Cassandra's repeatedly dodged bullets inches from her face, outraced bullets, embarrassed Ravager and held her own against Deathstroke (all very well known feats that I'm sure you know). He demonstrates good strategic aptitude by leading her around, using gadgets against her in combat etc, despite being half out of his mind on drugs:

Gallery

Pre-New Nightwing couldn't even lay a hand on him, when he didn't want him to:

Gallery

Nightwing is perhaps the greatest human acrobat in DC and has some very impressive speed feats of his own, not limited to avoiding gunfire from Deathstroke, avoiding electrostatic discharge from the Electrocutioner, gunfire from Killshot and robotic tentacles that trapped the rest of the Titans (including Donna Troy and Jessie Quick) and dodging homing Batarangs of Batman One Million for a while etc.

From the looks of things, Boss might edge him out in speed slightly. Still, the edge is not too large for Bruce to contend with. He's kept up with some very fast opponents.

The gap between them is marginal at best.

For the record, Dick has moved faster than Nemesis could see and Tresser speculated he 'might be faster than the original', leaving it up in the air. Still, it's pretty obvious that Bruce too can move faster than the human eye can perceive:

And if nothing else those 'speedster feats' that are so hard to quantify should at least show that Bruce won't be blown away by Snake's sprinting speed and will be able to reacts if charges him.

I think you're kinda selling this feat short, though:

At the very least, he took 5 guns away (judging by the number he drops into the sewer). Given the fact that there were 10 or so men around him, why would he only take the weapons of half of them?

And considering they were all aiming at him and removed their weapons from them so fast that they didn't even know their weapons had left their hands, I'd say it's a lot more than just "a high school bully snatches someone's books away". They didn't get a chance to make any movements whatsoever.

And in regards to Bruce being in a similar situation in Don't Blink, I don't need scans. Realistically, that's just the nature of comicbooks. I've got an example of Daredevil saying he's incapable of reacting to or dodging bullets, yet, based off dozens of other showing, we know this not to be true.

Cassandra Cain's done this to a whole freaking legion of military guys and Bruce has managed to keep pace with her level of speed:

Gallery

If embarrassing a bunch of fodder soldiers is impressive, how about Bruce chumping Black Lightning, Major Force and Katana?

Or outreacting two turrets before they even fire?

Gallery

I'll respond to your feats about Big Boss's skill when I see more examples from him

Now, in terms of endurance, you've given some good examples from Boss, but Bruce still has a lot left in the tank (ha!) when it comes to these sorts of feats himself.

During RIP, Bruce was tortured, pumped full of military grade crack and heroin, poisoned by Joker's toxin and left to die in a shallow grave.

Despite that, he lifts 600 pounds off himself, crushes Hurt's goons and brings down his helicopter with his bare hands:

Gallery

Now, if this was a disease out-lasting contest, Snake might have an edge. It's not (obviously).

Still, Batman has a very impressive showing where he was injected with a toxin that would've killed him within a day:

Gallery

He still climbed a 50 story building despite his sickness that was causing him to lose his mind.

Gallery

He even survived a car crash, despite his condition:

Gallery

Regardless of his conditioning, he still uses his intellect to beat a group of thugs, gets shot multiple times but still managed to save the little girl he was after, while simultaneously catching and saving the ringleader:

Gallery

Or how about we look at Birth of the Demon?

Here, Bruce was knocked into a pit of toxic waste:

Gallery

And become extremely ill:

Gallery

Despite that, he engages Ra's Al Ghul in a brutal death match:

Gallery

Despite having a body riddled with disease, being lit on fire, smacked in the face with a shovel and impaled by that same shovel, he rises up and throws himself and Ra's into the Lazuras Pit, healing himself.

Pretty crazy feats for just a peak human.

All in all, I think it's clear Bruce won't be outlasted here.

Anyway, to finish this response, while Snake having a naked fistfight with a comrade (where they embrace in the end? Ew!) than how about Bruce beating Bane into submission? New 52 Bane is a physical titan. In Arkham War alone, he was beating up a properly written Killer Croc (who could toss cars around), wrecking squads of Talons eand generally sh*tting over the rest of Bruce's rouges gallery.

Bruce clobbered him (with a bit of help from a handy statue).

Gallery

I'll respond to stealth in my next post, but I think you can make your response now @nickzambuto.

@comicstooge

Round 3:

Physicality:

About endurance, I'm starting to think that line of conversation isn't going anywhere. They're both at the top of the game when it comes to will power, Snake regularly tanks gunshots, fights with broken bones, resists torture, denies mind control, endures poisons, the whole nine, whereas Batman... regularly tanks gunshots, fights with broken bones, resists torture, denies mind control, endures poisons, the whole... nine. Yeah.

I could post a list of feats for Big Boss when it comes to enduring tons of damage, but that would only be a waste of time because I'm sure you would follow that up with a list of feats for Batman doing the same. So I'm willing to admit that neither has the edge in will power here, and I hope you can admit the same. I mean, it goes without saying that Batman and Big Boss are two of the toughest mothers in fiction after all.

The recent Phantom Pain trailer shows Big Boss forcing his subordinate to stab him through the chest just to teach him a lesson about killing. The knife lands only a few inches away from his heart, but Snake doesn't even change his expression. Suffice to say, he's a pretty tough SOB, just like Mr. Wayne.

Now, whereas mentally they are equal, it's important to keep in mind that Big Boss still has the physical advantage. Keeping on the subject of durability, I've already shown that John can casually handle forces that would murder normal men, but while I'm at it let me preemptively talk about Batman's various gadgets for a bit and why they will ultimately be ineffective.

In reference to Bruce's batarangs and other piercing weapons, it's worth bringing up that Snake was able to survive being swarmed by The Pain's hornets for an extended period of time, with his only defense being a knife. Whereas all the soldiers around him were dying off almost immediately, Snake was coated with the insects for over a minute and literally wasn't even scratched.

Snake eventually escapes by leaping down a ravine which Major Zero had stated was too deep for him to survive. Now keep in mind, Major Zero is the guy who figured it'd be A-OK to strap Snake into a tiny pod 30,000 feet above sea level and send him rocketing towards Earth at mach 3. So it's safe to assume the hole was PRETTY deep if even he thought Snake wouldn't survive, yet Snake landed without a single injury, much to Zero's shock.

Now in regards to Batman's cryopellets and other such freezing weaponry, again Big Boss has a counter to that. Here's what liquid nitrogen is SUPPOSED to do to flesh:

And here's what it does to Snake. Spoiler alert: the answer is nothing.

I've covered explosive damage VERY extensively in my first post, and I believe surviving Volgin's electricity which was enough to power the Shagohad warrants Snake taking a few taser shots here and there. Does Batman use any fire-based weapons? It doesn't really matter if he does, considering Snake took on The Fury and his rocket-fuel laced flamethrower in an area that was coated with flames and came out on top.

He was also burned alive by Solid Snake in his old age, and even though he was in no fighting condition afterwards, it's worth mentioning that he survived.

Of course this is all assuming Batman gets EXTREMELY lucky and manages to tag Snake, because even after taking a crossbow bolt to the knee, Snake was able to roll out the way of several more bolts after they were fired, so the odds of Bruce ever tagging him are slim.

Of course I have to mention the fact that the first bolt only tagged him because he was caught off guard by an invisible opponent.

What else does Batman use offensively? Flash bangs? Admittedly I don't have any direct counter to this besides the fact that Snake has gone up against opponents who used flash bangs in the past, but keep in mind, Snake is ALSO equipped with flash bangs, as well as a plethora of other weaponry. In the contest of gadgets vs guns, it should go without saying that Big Boss is in another league, and I'd be willing to bet he can actually shoot Bruce. Snake has already tagged super humans, most notably The Fear who was fast enough to run on water, so a peak human should be no problem. You can post as many bullet timing feats as you want, but until Batman faces a man skilled enough to solo entire military bases, down an attack chopper sent to kill him in seconds with just a few bursts of precision fire, and outgun the inventor of sniping, he should not be able to dodge John's gunfire.

Batman's record against skilled marksman isn't phenomenal anyway. When Deadshot was serious he knocked Batman out with a coin, and the first half of his fight with Red Hood was mostly running away. On that note I'd say Big Boss is closer to Deadshot thanks to Reflex Mode, which allows him to drastically slow down his perception for precision shots.

In this official Konami gameplay presentation, Big Boss is able to score a headshot, shoot out a search light a distance away, and score another headshot before the soldiers could move a few inches. If Snake is seeing Batman like this, than Bruce will be riddled with holes before he can react.

It's not just a gameplay mechanic either, Kojima made sure to integrate this new ability into cutscenes as well.

An RPG travels at around 965 feet per second, but Big Boss is seeing it move like a turtle. Then after the rocket goes off at close range, Snake recovers in time to headshot the enemy soldier before he can get another shot off.

Snake was actually portrayed as having advanced perception as early as MGS3, which allowed him to pull out his rocket launcher and shoot falling debris before they could hit the ground, from a moving motorcycle.

And in Peace Walker there's slow motion during CQC, so it helps outside of shooting too.

Bottom line is, with Reflex Mode, Batman can't dodge fully automatic gunfire for long.

On the subject of speed, let me address those feats you posted for Batman. As impressive as they are on their own, I'm afraid to say they don't match up with what's been shown for Big Boss.

He sidestepped and countered Azrael, despite the fact that Jean-Paul was a bullet timer himself and could deep pace with Deathstroke in a sword fight, to the point where they battled to a stalemate (the fight was inconclusive because a telepath put Slade to sleep mid-battle).

Interesting how Snake and Batman are performing very similar feats.

So on the surface they seem even, but let's look deeper. The big hype surrounding Jean-Paul is his ability to deflect bullets, as you've shown. Unfortunately for him, not only can Null also deflect bullets, but he did it from Big Boss, and I just went over how great a marksman he is.

So already Null is looking a lot quicker and more skilled than Jean-Paul, but there's more. All Batman did was sidestep him, that's one movement, one kneejerk reaction. Snake had a prolonged battle dodging and countering numerous attacks and eventually beating him to the brink of death. So once again, we come to the conclusion that Batman's knee jerk reactions = Big Boss's actual combat speed. Pretty disadvantageous.

Keeping pace with Cass is good, but Batman spent that entire fight on the defensive, running away and barely scraping by. I don't think he actually landed a single hit. Not to mention...

I don't think Batman is anywhere near as fast as Cassy, and there really isn't any proof otherwise. Besides, she couldn't hold a candle to Gene anyway. Cass is a good bullet dodger but show her doing something like this.

0:35-0:40

Also FTR Bruce wasn't "out of his mind on drugs", I'm sure you know this but he was totally conscious and wanted the fight to happen. The drugs just gave him an excuse.

And then there's the Nightwing feat. Very impressive speed, but again, a few factors that need to be considered. For one Batman had all his energy focused on running away, it's not like they were fighting and he just danced around everything Dick tried, so it's still not proper combat speed. Also Bruce used his grapple gun and Dick still managed to grab him. It's been said on panel three times now that Nightwing is faster than Batman, so even though it's a good feat I don't think it matches up with Big Boss.

From the looks of things, Boss might edge him out in speed slightly. Still, the edge is not too large for Bruce to contend with. He's kept up with some very fast opponents.

Slight? The advantage is larger than that and something tells me you know that too!

And if nothing else those 'speedster feats' that are so hard to quantify should at least show that Bruce won't be blown away by Snake's sprinting speed and will be able to reacts if charges him.

Well, yeah I'm not saying Big Boss can speedblitz Batman, but why would he just charge him anyway? That's not in character at all, Metal Gear is a stealth game. Big Boss won't engage in H2H combat until he's forced to.

If embarrassing a bunch of fodder soldiers is impressive, how about Bruce chumping Black Lightning, Major Force and Katana?

Eh. Justice League Batman. No comment.

Or outreacting two turrets before they even fire

Actually he drew the batarangs preemptively, indicating that he was ready to take down the turrets. Still impressive, but it's not like Big Boss doesn't gun down groups of soldiers before they can pull the trigger all the time.

Anyway, to finish this response, while Snake having a naked fistfight with a comrade (where they embrace in the end? Ew!) than how about Bruce beating Bane into submission? New 52 Bane is a physical titan. In Arkham War alone, he was beating up a properly written Killer Croc (who could toss cars around), wrecking squads of Talons eand generally sh*tting over the rest of Bruce's rouges gallery.

Bruce clobbered him (with a bit of help from a handy statue).

It's called a bromance you hater.

I'll let the Superman/Batman feat slide, but I gotta call this one out. Didn't Bane stomp Batman in his very first appearance in the New 52? Like, utterly, hopelessly, totally and completely with no hope for salvation obliterstomp him? And now suddenly Batman can win? Very inconsistent, they've only had two fights to go on, one where Batman couldn't do jack and another where he just barely won, so this feat isn't entirely reliable to say the least.

Besides, Batman needed the statue to knock him out. Snake beat Volgin with just his bare fists, Volgin who tanks bullets, RPGs, aircraft hangar busting explosions, and even a bolt of lightning. Snake ruptured his organs and had him puking up blood, unarmed.

Now you might bring up the fact that Volgin easily beat Snake before this, just as Bane beat Batman, which would make me a hypocrite. However it's important to note that right before Volgin originally beat Snake, Snake had just had a fight with The Boss and was exhausted. Also, that was before Snake got his eyepatch.

I'll respond to your feats about Big Boss's skill when I see more examples from him

Well let's start with Volgin, a man who's physical strength was enough to shatter the armor of the Shagohad and could generate beams of electricity. Compared to him, Bane is a lil' pussycat, both in power and ruthlessness. But that's not all, Volgin was ALSO faster than Snake to boot, based on his ability to easily outreact EVA.

When you think about it this way, it's pretty amazing that Snake was able to go close quarters with this guy and not get crushed. I mean, with the speed to avoid strikes it might be easier to swallow, but Jack didn't even have that! And it's not like Volgin was an idiot either, he was a championship boxer and ranked Colonel-class in the Soviet military, making him an exceptional combatant in his own right on top of everything else. I don't think Batman has ever been able to defeat an opponent who was this physically imposing.

If you're looking for feats against skilled fighters rather than powerhouses though, I've already gone over Null and Gene, two super-fighters with enhanced stats on top, and Big Boss still murked them. He has literally mastered all aspects of close quarters combat, and I mean mastered, to the point where even someone as top tier as Solid motherf***ing Snake was defeated in just an instant.

Combat against Big Boss is a chess game. Every move is thought out, every strike is part of a plan, and to match him, you need a mind as superhumanly strategic as Revolver Ocelot's.

Of course Ocelot is the guy who mastered CQC just by watching people do it and outprepped The Patriots. At the time of this fight he was a triple agent on all sides of the iron curtain, ranking high in the KGB, GRU, and CIA all simultaneously, and if you know anything about the Cold War then you know that is absolutely insane. Skillwise he easily bested Raiden in a few moves despite his old age, and absolutely destroyed Solid Snake in armed combat.

Now I know you're probably going to respond with all kinds of pressure points nonsense and a list of martial arts Batman has mastered, and while I could go into Big Boss's technical knowledge like the fact that a properly executed CQC slam hurts twice as much as a regular slam, I believe that efficiency speaks louder than on paper statements.

Nice

@comicstooge I understand if you don't want to continue, so would you mind if we just opened it up for votes? I rather enjoyed this debate and I don't want it to go to waste.

Oh man, I totally forgot about this!

I wanna keep going, I'm just super busy as it is with school. In a few weeks, I'll continue this, if you want

If you're really game then so am I, I still have a lot more I could say on the topic.

Great CaV. If you two actually go through with it, definitely tag me.

Bump bump bump

These are two of my favorite fictional characters, I want to see the ending.

New game feats.......should get finished now

Come on guys. Are we just voting now or what?