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#101 Posted by Erik (29813 posts) - - Show Bio
@Hohenheim_of_light:  
The suit does vary but can you provide proof of which ones were ever just cloth? 
 
The effectiveness of the shield does not validate your point. 
#102 Edited by Dex_Starr (4772 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

@Hohenheim_of_light: The suit does vary but can you provide proof of which ones were ever just cloth? The effectiveness of the shield does not validate your point.

I'd assume the one's that human martial artist have torn through with punches and kicks aren't any more durable than Captain America's standard costume. It certain has never stopped bullets or blades from tearing or puncturing it. Those instances are far more frequent than Batman tanking explosions which I've only seen once in his entire career. so I'm not considering it equipment since other characters can still cause damage and it really is no more durable than another characters costumes. The only thing I've ever seen Batman line his suit with besides padding is lead, and that's hardly a difference maker.

No it doesn't, but I was simply pointing it out, I don't consider Batman's costume equipment unless we'd count every other characters costume as equipment as well. Most of the time it's kelvar yet it's been torn and punctured numerous times.

#103 Posted by Erik (29813 posts) - - Show Bio
@Hohenheim_of_light:  
That is not necessarily true. Tearing through fabric designed for stopping bullets is not proof that it is cloth. An arrow can pierce kevlar fairly easily because kevlar is not designed to stop an arrow. Would an arrow going through his suit mean that it is cloth? Of course not. Likewise, even if he were wearing a cloth suit, that is not proof that his gloves are not reinforced anyway.  
 
Back in the 90s, Batman took bullets to the chest more than a few times. Do you think that he just happened to wear the kevlar lined suit just for that night? Did he just get that lucky? 
 
I would consider other character's costume to be equipment when it serves more than being a colorful article of clothing. Is Wolverine's costume equipment? No, but Iron Man's is. So is Moon Knight's and Batwing's and many many more. 
#104 Edited by Dex_Starr (4772 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

@Hohenheim_of_light: That is not necessarily true. Tearing through fabric designed for stopping bullets is not proof that it is cloth. An arrow can pierce kevlar fairly easily because kevlar is not designed to stop an arrow. Would an arrow going through his suit mean that it is cloth? Of course not. Likewise, even if he were wearing a cloth suit, that is not proof that his gloves are not reinforced anyway. Back in the 90s, Batman took bullets to the chest more than a few times. Do you think that he just happened to wear the kevlar lined suit just for that night? Did he just get that lucky? I would consider other character's costume to be equipment when it serves more than being a colorful article of clothing. Is Wolverine's costume equipment? No, but Iron Man's is. So is Moon Knight's and Batwing's and many many more.

I know it isn't regular cloth, I'm saying that it's not so durable that it's a difference maker or any more durable than Captain America's costume. I'd also like to see any instance of Batman taking a round to the chest and not penetrating through his armor, because I'm fairly certain there are more instances of bullets penetrating his suit making it more consistent. Batman's suit isn't bullet proof and I can think of at least 2-3 instances off the top of my head that human characters have torn through it with punches and kicks.

I'm going by what's more consistent, a bullet proof Batman, or a Batman who's costume gives him some protection but not something that would give him an unfair advantage over other characters.

#105 Posted by Erik (29813 posts) - - Show Bio
@Hohenheim_of_light said:

@Erik said:

@Hohenheim_of_light: That is not necessarily true. Tearing through fabric designed for stopping bullets is not proof that it is cloth. An arrow can pierce kevlar fairly easily because kevlar is not designed to stop an arrow. Would an arrow going through his suit mean that it is cloth? Of course not. Likewise, even if he were wearing a cloth suit, that is not proof that his gloves are not reinforced anyway. Back in the 90s, Batman took bullets to the chest more than a few times. Do you think that he just happened to wear the kevlar lined suit just for that night? Did he just get that lucky? I would consider other character's costume to be equipment when it serves more than being a colorful article of clothing. Is Wolverine's costume equipment? No, but Iron Man's is. So is Moon Knight's and Batwing's and many many more.

I know it isn't regular cloth, I'm saying that it's not so durable that it's a difference maker or any more durable than Captain America's costume. I'd also like to see any instance of Batman taking a round to the chest and not penetrating through his armor, because I'm fairly certain there are more instances of bullets penetrating his suit making it more consistent. Batman's suit isn't bullet proof and I can think of at least 2-3 instances off the top of my head that human characters have torn through it with punches and kicks.

I'm going by what's more consistent, a bullet proof Batman, or a Batman who's costume gives him some protection but not something that would give him an unfair advantage over other characters.

I do not keep scans. But you can bring in Citizen Bane of Entropy to confirm my statement on the matter. 
#106 Edited by Dex_Starr (4772 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, until then 3 instances of his suit didn't stop a bullet from penetrating were Dark Victory, Odyssey and The Cult. There's probably more out there.

#107 Posted by entropy_aegis (13615 posts) - - Show Bio

The suit's durability varies from writer to writer,however it should be bulletproof to an extent.The chest/torso has shown to be the most armored and his gauntlets/gloves have been seen deflecting bullets.The legs are prolly the least protected area.

#108 Posted by Erik (29813 posts) - - Show Bio
@Hohenheim_of_light said:

Ok, until then 3 instances of his suit didn't stop a bullet from penetrating were Dark Victory, Odyssey and The Cult. There's probably more out there.

Not sure what that proves really. There are real world instances where kevlar just does not hold up. That is why kevlar is not called bulletproof these days. It is stated as either bullet resistant or virtually bulletproof. And again, that does not prove cloth nor does it disprove any other statement I made. Batman has had to wear reinforced body armor since Bane out of pure necessity. This was stated right after he was soundly defeated by an opponent that stomped on Batman's back. He stated the reinforced body armor saved him. I cannot remember the issue since I am not a huge Batman reader but when it happened, the issue ended with Batman face down with a giant boot depression on his back. Were he not wearing armor then, he likely would have been killed. 
#109 Posted by Erik (29813 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis said:

The suit's durability varies from writer to writer,however it should be bulletproof to an extent.The chest/torso has shown to be the most armored and his gauntlets/gloves have been seen deflecting bullets.The legs are prolly the least protected area.

Thanks for clearing that up for the both of us. 
#110 Posted by entropy_aegis (13615 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

Ok, until then 3 instances of his suit didn't stop a bullet from penetrating were Dark Victory, Odyssey and The Cult. There's probably more out there.

Not sure what that proves really. There are real world instances where kevlar just does not hold up. That is why kevlar is not called bulletproof these days. It is stated as either bullet resistant or virtually bulletproof. And again, that does not prove cloth nor does it disprove any other statement I made. Batman has had to wear reinforced body armor since Bane out of pure necessity. This was stated right after he was soundly defeated by an opponent that stomped on Batman's back. He stated the reinforced body armor saved him. I cannot remember the issue since I am not a huge Batman reader but when it happened, the issue ended with Batman face down with a giant boot depression on his back. Were he not wearing armor then, he likely would have been killed.

Yes he started using armor after Bane,that brute who stomped on his back was Bat-Bane,and he was saved thanks to some special backbrace or something.

#111 Posted by Erik (29813 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis said:

@Erik said:

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

Ok, until then 3 instances of his suit didn't stop a bullet from penetrating were Dark Victory, Odyssey and The Cult. There's probably more out there.

Not sure what that proves really. There are real world instances where kevlar just does not hold up. That is why kevlar is not called bulletproof these days. It is stated as either bullet resistant or virtually bulletproof. And again, that does not prove cloth nor does it disprove any other statement I made. Batman has had to wear reinforced body armor since Bane out of pure necessity. This was stated right after he was soundly defeated by an opponent that stomped on Batman's back. He stated the reinforced body armor saved him. I cannot remember the issue since I am not a huge Batman reader but when it happened, the issue ended with Batman face down with a giant boot depression on his back. Were he not wearing armor then, he likely would have been killed.

Yes he started using armor after Bane,that brute who stomped on his back was Bat-Bane,and he was saved thanks to some special backbrace or something.

Entropy to the rescue yet again. :)
#112 Posted by entropy_aegis (13615 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik: No prob.

#113 Edited by Dex_Starr (4772 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

Ok, until then 3 instances of his suit didn't stop a bullet from penetrating were Dark Victory, Odyssey and The Cult. There's probably more out there.

Not sure what that proves really. There are real world instances where kevlar just does not hold up. That is why kevlar is not called bulletproof these days. It is stated as either bullet resistant or virtually bulletproof. And again, that does not prove cloth nor does it disprove any other statement I made. Batman has had to wear reinforced body armor since Bane out of pure necessity. This was stated right after he was soundly defeated by an opponent that stomped on Batman's back. He stated the reinforced body armor saved him. I cannot remember the issue since I am not a huge Batman reader but when it happened, the issue ended with Batman face down with a giant boot depression on his back. Were he not wearing armor then, he likely would have been killed.

You said there were instances of Batman's suit stopping bullets, I asked for them, you told me to ask someone else for scans, so I listed instances of bullets penetrating his suit. I never stated it was cloth, I stated that it's no where near as durable as you're making it out to be and it isn't an advantage like Captain America's shield is. Even if it is reinforced, that doesn't make it bullet proof, and assuming there are instances of his suit withstanding bullets, you'd need several of those to offset Batman's suit consistently getting penetrated by bullets.

@entropy_aegis said:

The suit's durability varies from writer to writer,however it should be bulletproof to an extent.The chest/torso has shown to be the most armored and his gauntlets/gloves have been seen deflecting bullets.The legs are prolly the least protected area.

Could you show the scans of his suit stopping bullets? I'd imagine that it offers some protection around the chest but I haven't read any instance of Batman taking a round without any noticeable damage.

#114 Posted by Erik (29813 posts) - - Show Bio
@Hohenheim_of_light:  
See above post from Entropy. If you want to argue about it, I give him permission to assume command of my Batman debate. 
#115 Posted by Dex_Starr (4772 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

@Hohenheim_of_light: See above post from Entropy. If you want to argue about it, I give him permission to assume command of my Batman debate.

I've already asked him about it.

#116 Posted by entropy_aegis (13615 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

@Erik said:

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

Ok, until then 3 instances of his suit didn't stop a bullet from penetrating were Dark Victory, Odyssey and The Cult. There's probably more out there.

Not sure what that proves really. There are real world instances where kevlar just does not hold up. That is why kevlar is not called bulletproof these days. It is stated as either bullet resistant or virtually bulletproof. And again, that does not prove cloth nor does it disprove any other statement I made. Batman has had to wear reinforced body armor since Bane out of pure necessity. This was stated right after he was soundly defeated by an opponent that stomped on Batman's back. He stated the reinforced body armor saved him. I cannot remember the issue since I am not a huge Batman reader but when it happened, the issue ended with Batman face down with a giant boot depression on his back. Were he not wearing armor then, he likely would have been killed.

You said there were instances of Batman's suit stopping bullets, I asked for them, you told me to ask someone else for scans, so I listed instances of bullets penetrating his suit. I never stated it was cloth, I stated that it's no where near as durable as you're making it out to be and it isn't an advantage like Captain America's shield is. Even if it is reinforced, that doesn't make it bullet proof, and assuming there are instances of his suit withstanding bullets, you'd need several of those to offset Batman's suit consistently getting penetrated by bullets.

@entropy_aegis said:

The suit's durability varies from writer to writer,however it should be bulletproof to an extent.The chest/torso has shown to be the most armored and his gauntlets/gloves have been seen deflecting bullets.The legs are prolly the least protected area.

Could you show the scans of his suit stopping bullets? I'd imagine that it offers some protection around the chest but I haven't read any instance of Batman taking a round without any noticeable damage.

In Brubakers run he allowed himself to be shot in the torso 5 times or so,he damaged his ribs though.I think it's logical for him to protect his chest and his arms(for blocking measures).The cowl is also protected to some extent,but that and the back brace have only been mentioned once.Ofcourse if he was shot by an assault rifle(or a weapon with similar power) then i'd think he be damaged regardless of the armor.

#117 Posted by daredevil21134 (9097 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: The True Batman Expert

#118 Posted by entropy_aegis (13615 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134 said:

@entropy_aegis: The True Batman Expert

I'm sure there are more knowledgeble guys,i came across one on CBR.

#119 Posted by Andy Steven Summers (4987 posts) - - Show Bio

From my time on the Vine. If I ever wanted to know something I didn't about Batman. I asked this guy. Vuviper. His knowledge, and collection of scans to back his claims is impressive.

#120 Posted by entropy_aegis (13615 posts) - - Show Bio

@Andy Steven Summers said:

From my time on the Vine. If I ever wanted to know something I didn't about Batman. I asked this guy. Vuviper. His knowledge, and collection of scans to back his claims is impressive.

He's retired sadly.

#121 Posted by Andy Steven Summers (4987 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: He has posted in debates not just 10 hours ago.

#122 Posted by entropy_aegis (13615 posts) - - Show Bio

@Andy Steven Summers said:

@entropy_aegis: He has posted in debates not just 10 hours ago.

I meant to say that he does'nt appear as frequently as i would like him to.He does have some really nice scans.

#123 Posted by Andy Steven Summers (4987 posts) - - Show Bio

The only real question I see for this debate is. Can Batman defeat Captain America & Black Widow together?

The answer. No.

As many people have already mentioned. Catwoman is the weak link here, and Black Widow should be more than capable of taking her down. Debates between Bat and Cap have gone on here forever. A match up between them any way you cut it would be a lengthy one. So neither one of these two are taking the other out fast enough to help their partner.

So this falls on the partners to make the deciding factors. In which case Black Widow gives her team the win. She is just better than Catwoman. It's that simple.

#124 Posted by marvelman27 (112 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman could beat Captain America with or without equipment and Black Widow would beat Catwoman, So it could come down to Black Widow vs Batman, if its equipment then Batman would win, but he would of had to use quite abit of his equipment from the utility belt, so Black Widow would take it depending on how much equipment has left in his utility belt

#125 Edited by adhd_assassin (524 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvelman27: no, i garantee that the bw and cw fight will be over far before the ca and bm fight is. Either way, ive always said cap beats batman, so adding black widow to the mix would make it a sweep

#126 Edited by dondave (26665 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1

#127 Posted by Batman242 (4800 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman and Catwoman

#128 Edited by SlimJ87D (8913 posts) - - Show Bio

Catwoman = Weakest link.

Team 2.

#129 Posted by mcool135 (413 posts) - - Show Bio

Catwoman beats Widow then she helps Batman beat Captain America.

#130 Posted by Cara_Hunter (3687 posts) - - Show Bio

It ends in... SEX | Blatantly Obvious Batman

#131 Posted by mcool135 (413 posts) - - Show Bio

With both BlackWidow and Selina Kyle while Captain America helplessly watches. Why? Because he's Batman!

#132 Edited by Cara_Hunter (3687 posts) - - Show Bio

@mcool135 said:

With both BlackWidow and Selina Kyle while Captain America helplessly watches. Why? Because he's Batman!

EXACTLY!

#133 Edited by batmannflash (6109 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh great now you have a picture to go along with that lol

#134 Posted by Cara_Hunter (3687 posts) - - Show Bio
#135 Posted by SlimJ87D (8913 posts) - - Show Bio

I highly doubt Catwoman beats Black Widow. People forget that Natasha actually has a variation of the Infinity Formula + Super Soldier Serum which gives her beyond a woman's peak human strength. On top of her strength, I highly doubt Catwoman is more skilled either. I wouldn't even put Catwoman at Elektra's level, but Black Widow stalemated Elektra once WHILE SHE WAS INJURED. She had just gotten out of the hospital and had a huge cut in her stomach.

She's listed at being capable of lifting more than 500 lbs with ease, that's much more than any athletic woman could dream of lifting. She's been shown to throw grown men around like rag dolls.

So let me know what Catwoman can do to match Black Widow in strength and skill. I'm open to it.