@NEEK_03: Unless you can tell me how hard Superman is hitting, depending on the topic at hand it's irrelevant. That's the point. Deathstroke was an arbitrary comparison.
Anyways, I'd have to agree with Static on his points. I've exhausted myself in the discussion we are having as I don't see it getting us anywhere anymore. See you around.
H2H- Bats has the best and most numerous feats, and probably the most training, though I consider Steve his equal in h2h. BP is a distant third here.
Durability- Cap easily. His durability is superhuman. He can take more punishment, heal faster, and fatigues more slowly even than BP when he had the heart-shaped herb. Bats and BP have better armor, and are superior when so encased, but Steve doesn't need it as much, plus he has the shield which is better than their armor. Cap-BP-Bats
Tactics- Bats. This is similar to the h2h question. I think Cap is equal or very nearly so, but Bats has better feats in general. BP is again a distant third.
Prep- This is easily Bats, though I think BP has come a long way, and may be close to matching Batty Man. Cap brings up the rear here.
Weapons- Cap is better with his chosen weapon than the others, and is well versed in other weapons, but Bats is better with a greater variety of weaponry. BP again in third.
Agility- Cap is the only one who has legitimate superhuman agility stats. Bats and BP can never match Cap, even though they are usually portrayed as more agile fighter types. Cap-BP-Bats
Strength- Cap again. He has superhuman strength. Neither of the others can break Ironman's armor or throw a shield through a truck back to front, including the engine block. Cap is a fair way above, BP and Bats are pretty close to even.
Intellect- Batman wins here, but only barely edges out T'challa. Steve is a legit genius, but nowhere near the supergenius levels of BP and Bats.
Misc- Batman is the obvious answer here. He has the resources of being one of the richest people alive, he has an extensive array of contacts ranging from the criminal underworld to the JLA, JSA, and everywhere in between, not to mention some of the most accomplished scientific minds in the world, but T'challa has an entire nation's resources, is also extraordinarily rich personally, has diplomatic connections due to his royal lineage, and has connections with the Avengers and X-men and Fantastic Four. So due to having greater access to a broader range of power and intellect (Reed trumps anyone in DC), so I think Black Panther wins this category. Cap is a distant third here.
So in summation, Cap is physically superior, and in a naked fight should win. When you bring in prep and resource access it really comes down to Bats and BP probably with BP edging it out resources, and Bats edging out prep. But with standard gear for all, and no prep, it is still nearly anyone's game.
@CozyDaPrynce: Without the herb his strength, and agility suffer. ALong with misc things like speed,stamina, durability, reflexes.
@tg1982: no weapons. no tech. just wearing shorts and tshirt. who would win if these 3 ever fought one on one elimination style? classic version of all
@CozyDaPrynce: Without the herb his strength, and agility suffer. ALong with misc things like speed,stamina, durability, reflexes.
I acknowledged his strength wasn't up there w/out it. but strength isn't much of a factor in a h2h fight imo. If batman can stand up to cap's super serum strength T'Challa should be able to as well.
As far as speed, agility and reflexes go he was able to keep up with a juiced up uncle before the herb.
H2H capabilities, he knows all martial arts so I personally think he's above cap there but bats could be on par with him.
Durability? He's no worse than bats when he's not on the herb. Specially with his suit, ye?
Stamina? I don't think there are any showings of his stamina pre-herb in any comics but even if that were the case, I doubt he's got any less, naturally, than batman. I mean he was trained since much younger than bats even began to train so his physical endurance shouldn't be any less.
TBH tho I think that his suit and the herb are irrelevant. This BP guy is already a top contender, don't sleep on his talent or let his suit/herb cloud ur judgement.
For street levelers, these are the most creditable durability feats you can show. Not a backhand from a 100 tonner where it's obvious that they didn't hit him with 100 tons. These kinds of showings are controversial and questionable.
Okay. I have something better. This was before T'Challa acquired the vibranium suit.
@SlimJ87D said:
Cap takes the durability if they are unaided. Black Panther takes it if you include armor due to his vibranium plating.
Despite the light armor, it wouldn't make much of a difference.
Gallery
@jashro44 said:
I was mostly just curious why every one was saying captain america and batman for everything....It just seemed odd to me.
Everyone is uneducated about something. That's why. Add to the fact that more popular characters get most of the credit.
@Static Shock: I'm not trying to make up excuses, but Hulk, despite his monologue, has never truly tried to kill or harm anyone that was far below his power set bak in the day. But what I was truly getting at was that it's really hard to analyze how hard Darkseid, Superman and MM hit Batman. It's obvious they didn't hit him their fastest. So I was just explaining that it's really hard to interprut the durability needed for the feat. While I did post scans of Namor wrecking Steve earlier, I was analyzing the fact that Cap was getting slammed straight into boulders and his suit began to tear apart. From this fact I was able to tell that the force was great. We can see pieces of the hard rock being broken apart. At one point the side of his face, neck and shoulder is slammed against a wall too. This discussion came from another topic as Neek continued to post scans of Batman taking a hit from MM hitting Bruce across a room in response to my scans.
My point to NEEK was how hard (but not always impossible) it is to analyze a hit to a street leveler from a heavy hitter due to possible plot reasons or other factos. That was all. I did admit in my pos that I was ignorant on BP hoping to grab either you or Morpheus attention.
@CozyDaPrynce: Without the herb his strength, and agility suffer. ALong with misc things like speed,stamina, durability, reflexes.
I acknowledged his strength wasn't up there w/out it. but strength isn't much of a factor in a h2h fight imo. If batman can stand up to cap's super serum strength T'Challa should be able to as well.
As far as speed, agility and reflexes go he was able to keep up with a juiced up uncle before the herb.
H2H capabilities, he knows all martial arts so I personally think he's above cap there but bats could be on par with him.
Durability? He's no worse than bats when he's not on the herb. Specially with his suit, ye?
Stamina? I don't think there are any showings of his stamina pre-herb in any comics but even if that were the case, I doubt he's got any less, naturally, than batman. I mean he was trained since much younger than bats even began to train so his physical endurance shouldn't be any less.
TBH tho I think that his suit and the herb are irrelevant. This BP guy is already a top contender, don't sleep on his talent or let his suit/herb cloud ur judgement.
His suit/herb are there for a reason. They enhance his physical abilities. And in a fight with these two every asset helps. With the herb tchalla is on a level playing field with Bats/Caps. Back in the day, before tchalla had the herb, he beat some people with unknown skill levels or feats. Classic Tchalla (herb/suit) not only could compete with Bats/Steve but may have been their superior in a fight. Current Tchalla(without herb/suit) can still compete with Cap/Bruce no doubt. But he can't beat them. The herb/suit take tchalla from possibly being number one to definitely being number 3.
@SlimJ87D: Make sense. On another note, I'm glad Cap isn't written to take the majority in his fight with Namor there. He's been written to get away with way too much.
@tg1982: I kinda agree with you. For some reason I see Bats coming in 3rd. Either Cap or BP would win and i'm leaning SLIGHTLY toward Cap. But BP could win it also.
@Static Shock: Iv always been of the thinking that Cap was Peak Human (This is a stretch) or slightly meta.I believe that T'challa has higher stats
Even though Steve said that they were equal? I mean, even based on showings, T'Challa doesn't outshine him.
I dont like to use what people say in comics because the writers use a lot of hyperbole. In terms of showings yes your correct but im not a fan of ties so im im giving it to T'challa since his other stats are higher and it seems logical that that would be as well (On a side note i must be a glutton for punishment to be having an argument with you about Black Panther)
In a debate over acutal skill in h2h and weapons...i think Bats is the clear winner. he has Mastered 127 different types of MA, where does it say that cap and bp can equal that? also batman has mastered multiple if not every type of weapon training as well, he just chooses not to use them.
strength is debatable, i guess i always assumed all 3 were peak human, now it seems steve has bumped into "enhanced human" which is slightly above but still below meta. when i thnk enhanced though i think slade, and in my opinion he beats cap out in physically. after looking at some of the feats it appears cap is stronger, though its only slightly. with gear i still give durability to BP then bats. batman is also highly resistant if not immune to most gases and toxins, due to training himself to be so.
when it comes to tactics i say bats, he is always the one coming up with on the spot plans to beat the JLA foes.
since BP has prepped for galactus and mephisto i give him the slight edge in prep.
im yet to see agility feats from BP but i think cap and bats are =. i havent seen anything caps can do that batman cant match.
misc skill, batman has a HUGE list of them. like i mentioned he can compress a full nights sleep into 3 days, he is a supreme inventor, master detective, stealth and escape artist. he can decrease the blood flow to an area, his will power and intellect are of the charts.
I see a lot of folks giving Bats the Prep Win but who has he actually beaten with prep? His plans against the JLA failed, his "killing" of Darkseid didn't actually stop anything (it actually made the situation worse) and he's never beaten Superman with it. The Biggest Bad I can think of is beating the Hyper-Adapter but that was with help. I'd say T'challa's wins are much more impressive.
I was gonna post this but you beat me to it. So I'll post this instead I'm pretty sure it is cannon but if not then I apologize in advance.............
I'm not talking about the outcome since both were holding back, but rather what BP is thinking about Steve how he adapts instictively to every situation and every fighting style. That combined with the other post seems to show that Steve knows more than "a few martial arts", IMO
@tg1982: Rumor has it that Contest of Champions II isn't canon, but I don't know for sure. After all, the both of them have had fights in which they were both holding back (they are both 1 - 1). They've never really had a serious fight. As far as skill, I haven't see anything that would make Cap more skilled. I have read documentation (like the scan of him say that he's adept at every fighting style), though.
@Static Shock: Yeah, I know they both holding back I posted the scan for BP's thoughts on Steve being able to adapt to every fighting style. Which, I guess, is moot if it's non-cannon. Also I know in Secret Avengers it was stated that Cap could master any weapon in seconds, I'll look for the issue, but if that's the case then he being adept at every martial art is certainly possible.
I see a lot of folks giving Bats the Prep Win but who has he actually beaten with prep? His plans against the JLA failed, his "killing" of Darkseid didn't actually stop anything (it actually made the situation worse) and he's never beaten Superman with it. The Biggest Bad I can think of is beating the Hyper-Adapter but that was with help. I'd say T'challa's wins are much more impressive.
Exactly.
@NEEK_03 said:
im yet to see agility feats from BP
Okay. I have all of these for now. I'll post more later, since I have a lot of comics to sift through. Note: These are just speed and reflex feats.
Is this black panther wearing his vibranium uniform? If so Durability is his. Why do people keep saying cap has better durability? Even without the Vibranium uniform for BP Batman still beats him (durability wise) because of his armour.
@Blacklightning13: Question. I have seen Erik Killmonger, Red Skrull, Iron Fist all get past BP's armor with just fist and knives. Can you name any circumstances where the armor stopped or lessened an attack? And it was stated that the armor was the reason?
@pooty: No because i'm not a BP reader. i never have been and probably never will be. But ask someone else. Also that is kind of stupid. Vibranium is meant to be about as good if not better then adamantium.
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