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Posted by k4tzm4n (48633 posts) 8 months, 10 days ago

Poll: Batman Battle of the Month VOTING: Batman vs. X-23 (398 votes)

Batman 41%
X-23 53%
Too close to call 6%

Does Bruce Wayne have what it takes to best Laura Kinney? Will his skill, gadgets and tactical mind be enough to compensate for her lethal mindset, healing factor and adamantium claws? Well, that's for you to decide. Yes, you. As these two duke it out, you'll have until Friday morning to think about how it would all go down. Can Batman earn a majority of wins or will X-23 outlast him in combat? Before voting, please be sure to read all of the following rules.

Match Rules

  • Combatants are in character.
  • This is a random encounter.
  • They're fighting in a generic downtown city setting. It's unpopulated, at night and all standard city lights remain on. Assume they start roughly 30 feet apart and visible. There's a fair amount of cover between them (parked vehicles, bus stops and such). The entire area is on limits. This means alleys, rooftops, building interiors, etc.
  • Standard gear.
  • Incapacitation, knockout or death all count as elimination.
  • Hey, you know what would be really cool? Treating everyone else in the debate with respect. If you think someone's saying something that just isn't true, go ahead and stick to the facts to point out why. There's no need at all to drop insults just because you disagree with someone. Seriously, this is just talking about a fictional fight, there's no need for immaturity and mudslinging.

Viners, you have the week to research, debate and vote! This means there's no reason to vote right away if you don't have all of the info you need to make an educated decision. Check the homepage Friday for an updated article with the following:

  • Thoughts from the staff.
  • A Viner Argument for both characters (can't include scans and must be in the poll thread).
  • If we're lucky, blurbs from industry talent.

Feel free to make future "Batman: Battle of the Month" suggestions in the comments below or via Gregg's Twitter page.

#151 Edited by Wolverine08 (43587 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

@jashro44: Oh yeah his suit won't protect him from the claws I was just saying she will have to put some power in her punches for them to go through. If she can even hit him at all

Not really.

#152 Edited by ClawFist (350 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman is a leading tactician and strategic mind. He's the world's greatest detective. He's a master ninja and he's studied every martial arts on. Planet. Earth. He's equipped with a utility belt that generally holds several batarangs, tracking devices, gas pellets, a grappling gun, tools, as well as other on hand devices, and his Bat-suit is basically flexible armor that is more or less always in communication with Alfred who has access to the Batputer (Yes I'm calling it that.) Needless to say, Batman is a comic book beast. How does he fair up against X-23?

The rules state that this is a random encounter, and combatants are in character. She's a 16 year old girl, I don't think Batman's initially gonna start throwing devices from his belt at her to test her out. He fought a majority of his rogue's gallery hand to hand during the Arkham Asylum break-out in Batman #1 - Knife Trick, using nothing from his belt but some smoke bombs to more or less blind his obviously outnumbering enemies. I'm more inclined to believe that X-23 would engage first, hand claws out. This is where he's gonna feel her out, hand to hand, if he uses smoke bombs they're going to be trumped by her ability to fight by heightened-sense alone. I think X-23's gonna be trying harder to hit Batman than he would be trying to hit her, Batman's trying to find and utilize a more peaceful solution to end the conflict. He's gonna be going for holds, he's gonna be going for a way to incapacitate or under extreme measures… knock her out, maybe even utilizing pressure points. Again, she's seemingly a 16 year old girl, with claws in her hands sure, but 16 nonetheless. Batman doesn't kill, and Batman doesn't go all out against children. X-23 has a computer-like mind that processes information and tactics in mid-battle. Batman's not gonna know this, but she's feeling him out too. So what's next?

Batman's looking for that opening, and he might get it, knock her down, get her in some kind of grapple, hit those nerves, but do we really think that's gonna take the fight out of X-23? If she got put down, she's getting back up. If she's in some kind of hold, she's gonna get out of it even if she has to break or dislocate her own arm to do so. Wether hit or not, Batman's next move is gonna be a tactical retreat. He needs to process what just happened and regroup, because that's what detectives do, they don't come up with assumptions, they don't insinuate, they process and regroup. You know what trumps his tactical retreat? Again, her superb heightened senses. He's not gonna be able to just disappear when she can track him, X-23 is gonna be strategically stalking Batman. Batman might have enough time to set-up a general trap if he realizes that he can't hide from her, which can be plausible, he's resourceful and no doubt intelligent. How long does X-23 really stay trapped though? Further more, she has a better chance of hiding from him than he does her. Avengers Arena #3 - Earth Girls Aren't Easy, X-23 stays hidden beneath the snow for what can be assumed to be hours, possibly even days just waiting for an enemy to come upon her. (Which should be noted, Talon's can not do, they freeze up, slow down, and shut down in extreme cold which was a tactic that Batman used against them. For all the X-23 / Talon comparisons.)

Let's say he trapped her, I mean he is Batman, right? She's gonna get free, her claws are going to be the deciding factor in that. Batman realizes his gas bombs don't work to blind her, his traps don't work to trap her, his stealth doesn't work to get the jump on her, his basic combat abilities don't work to incapacitate her, and he's more than likely already taken some if not a few heavy lacerations. Maybe sleeping gas will work? She's gonna run right through that. This is gonna come down to a hand to hand fight, and with standard gear and realizing this is a random in character encounter, Batman's not going to utilize every lethal or super martial arts move he has to bash on a 16 year old girl and he's not gonna have any choice but full tactical retreat to find out just what he's fighting (if he can) or go the way of Bane and have himself broken or worse. X-23 wins the battle.

My Opinion.

#153 Posted by Jayc1324 (12767 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: It takes some strength to cut through things even if the claws are sharp enough

#154 Edited by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

@wolverine08: It takes some strength to cut through things even if the claws are sharp enough

X-23 has peak human strength.

#155 Posted by Wolverine08 (43587 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@jayc1324 said:

@wolverine08: It takes some strength to cut through things even if the claws are sharp enough

X-23 has peak human strength.

The plot claws would do all the work anyways :D

#156 Posted by senglord (1568 posts) - - Show Bio

This is going to take a while to work out.

1. Both start 30 feet apart, Batman does have enough tech in his eye piece to detect the metal in X-23's arms and legs. This is a dead giveaway of metahuman/mutant status. If Batman moves first to close distance, X-23 will likely take the win. She is smaller and harder to hit, as well as faster than Batman. More than likely we will proceed to two.

2. Batman positions himself in an ideal position to relocate if things get too heavy, away from Laura and those unknown claws. Laura decides to either approach slow or fast. A slow approach will force Batman to initiate, a fast attack will show her healing factor if she pops the claws. Laura's best chance is to go in hard, as the Batmobile is a huge tank like thing that could blow her apart for long enough for her to lose the fight. (Batman's morals may not be a factor in her thinking)

3. X-23 leaps the entire distance and tries to end the fight with a claw kick to Batman's side. It is the more likely decision as her small size makes standard strikes against his armor a net liability. Batman evades the first strokes of her initial attack, getting grazed THROUGH his Kevlar/titanium armor. Batman unbalances her using his superior skill during the exchange to buy a split second to find a safe way to end the threat as soon as possible.

4. Laura swings her claws to prevent a follow up attack. Turns around, and sees nothing. Batman retreats to the shadows, while never losing sight of his opponent. Laura smells Batman, can hear his blood dripping slowly from the suit to the ground, and can see him in the shadows. She turns to walk away. Seeking a chance to catch her opponent unawares.

5. Batman deploys his sonics to slow down and distract X-23. His real attack will need to be precise.

Laura leaps onto a second/third floor ledge, pulls herself up, and disappears into the building. Batman scales the adjacent building, in darkness, and leaps onto the roof, using his cape to disguise his landing. He then uses his suit/Batmobile to determine the layout of the building and scan for heat signatures. Batman enters from a top floor window without making a noise to the human ear.

6. X-23 hears Batman enter. She knows how to avoid heat scanners, and is concealed within insulation. She is on the second floor and ready. Batman slows his breathing and heart to prevent his opponent's superhuman senses from having any more information than is unavoidable. He scans each floor for signs of movement or breath, with the Batmobile hacked into the city surveillance system to alert him if the hostile target should leave. From what he saw, Batman knows he will only have one chance to take down a metahuman like this. And that is if he does not mess up. He continues down. Slow. Silent. Sure.

7. Laura, smelling the blood and hearing each patient step of her skilled enemy decides how far she will go to be free. There will be no holding back. And no going back. This person has not tried to kill her, but she will kill him before she is ever caged again. He enters the third floor.

Batman enters the third floor from the opposite window that his target entered. He would not be caught on stairs or hallways against those claws. But what he walked into was little better. His sonar was able to detect that the support for the third floor was sabotaged. His keen balance immediately noticed the excess give when he set foot on the floor. Batman then lifted himself from the base of the window sill and struck his hands through the ceiling and wrapped his hands around the wooden floor/ceiling struts and proceeded to wall walk across the trap.

8. Laura heard the sound of the bizarre man as he punched his fingers through the third flor ceiling again and again, smart enough to know that the floor was weakened to leave him exposed to a lethal strike from below, the floor dampening any toys he might think to use. As the blood dampened the floor beneath him. His armor was a sharp tug of defense before it parted in their first exchange, the wooden floor would provide him nothing. He was close enough. Time to end it.

Batman's equipment detected movement before he himself did. Which was why he trusted it more than his own human instinct. In less than the blink of an eye the girl had jumped through the second floor roof and sunk her claws into mostly empty air where Batman mostly was just an instant ago. The air and ground was filled with his blood as they fell onto the ground of the third floor. Then fell through the second floor ceiling. The child was trying to kill him with her claws, and eventually would. But Bruce knew he had won the battle.

9. X-23 had done whatever it took to remain free and in control. In this case it was to mean killing a man with the best skills she had ever seen in a human that was not somehow more. A man dressed as a bat of all things. As they fell through the floor, she felt unusually cold. Not cool from the night, but blindingly cold. And then darkness.

Batman removed his arm from across the child's neck, and bound her up. The freezing pellets worked on her as it did on the Talons fortunately. It slowed down her body enough for him to get a choke hold and suspend blood flow to her brain. Even with Cryogenic pellets inspired by Mr. Freeze, this girl would be awake and ready to fight in less than thirty seconds, half frozen as she and most of the room were. The same insulation she had gathered to escape detection prevented heat from outside from seeping in, enhancing the cooling effects of the pellets. With the electromagnets to keep her claws from retracting, Batman was able to remove her claws with a few seconds to spare. The only question was if he would have help before she gets free of her binds, or he dies of his wounds. It took the most extreme of training techniques to keep viable until this point, he does not have much else.

My vote is too close to call. But I lean Batman due to tech and experience.

#157 Posted by Erik (33329 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik: ok thats just silly differeant weapons have differant advantages like a bow is a very good weapon at a distance up close its useless and for claws is the range of motion and you only have to act like you have claws like Logan to see what i mean first while stabing is fine the problem comes in when you slash and that is becuase all the power is only coming from the movement of your arms and when you a tempt to do a downward motion its even worse becuase the power in that is only coming from the shoulders not to mention that movemnet also leaves your whole body wide open

Yeah, that totally is how it works with Wolverine's claws. Completely ineffective when slashing. You are so right.

Wide open when doing a downward slash? Okay, so Batman can take advantage of this opening after he has been split in twain?

@erik: yes i have read the comics when her claws arnt extended she can flex her wrists

Both she and Wolverine have no trouble bending at the wrist when their claws are in or out. When the claws are sheathed, they are housed completely in the forearms. When extended, they are anchored in the hands. I don't know what comics you have read but it doesn't seem to have much to do with X-23.

#158 Posted by Wolverine08 (43587 posts) - - Show Bio

Have really liked this thread so far. Awesome arguments from both sides.

#159 Posted by senglord (1568 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: the issue I have is with Bruce not knowing that she has an advanced level of healing. Once he sees the claws pop, he would have to know. After Wolverine killable showed what would happen to someone with metal claws and no healing facror, I would bet good comic cash that Batman would know she can tank Talon levels of damage when she does not drop down in agony of slashing herself four dimes down her forearms several inches deep to get those blades out. And with little blood visible it would indicate that the wounds healed so fast and clean that the claws would seem to have always been out. And given Batman's clearly high tech body armor, Laura will only really score damage with the claws. Her feats do not put her much beyond the Talons in raw strength and speed. Their naturally acrobatic style of fighting makes an agility argument less viable. I think this will narrow out, as more people consider the detective aspect of Batman's fighting style.

And many do agree that going all out, Batman has the means to win. And cold slows bodily functions, it does not directly damage the body. If X-23 were hit with massive amounts of cryogenics, she would slow down and eventually stop. Her body would not die, it would be perfectly preserved. But she would be incapacitated. Likewise for loss of oxygen, the healing factor would only be an issue in terms of bodily damage.

#160 Posted by Wolverine08 (43587 posts) - - Show Bio
#161 Edited by LordoftheNorth (1365 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik: i guess you didnt read what i said and decided to be sarcastic instead becuase no where in that statement did i say that slashing is completely ineffective and iam sorry but yes when you rise your arms above your head in martial arts it leaves the rest of your body exposed any first year karate student could tell you that and i explained the concept pretty freaking well maybe you should learn just becuase something is cool like wolverines dosnt mean its funtional or pratical did you ever think maybe their is a reason claws arnt that a commenly used weapon

#162 Posted by Erik (33329 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik: i guess you didnt read what i said and decided to be sarcastic instead becuase no where in that statement did i say that slashing is completely ineffective and iam sorry but yes when you rise your arms above your head in martial arts it leaves the rest of your body exposed any first year karate student could tell you that and i explained the concept pretty freaking well maybe you should learn just becuase something is cool like wolverines dosnt mean its funtional or pratical did you ever think maybe their is a reason claws arnt that a commenly used weapon

I was being sarcastic because your post was silly. I mean really, Wolverine and X-23's slashing attacks are problematic because they lose power? That's absurd and it speaks volumes of your knowledge on either character.

Also, it doesn't matter if it leaves them open because you can't counter-attack when you are dead.

#163 Edited by senglord (1568 posts) - - Show Bio

@mythiic: Batman's visor can detect metal like guns and knives. It is not just from the game. So the claws will be indicating either a metahuman threat or a suicide attack.

I know this will sound silly, but are her claws designed like animal claws to pierce and tear like Wolverine, or are they narrow to slash better. If her claws are like how Wolverine's are often drawn, she would need to push in to get through the armor quickly. If they are slashing, his titanium and Kevlar will provide some momentary resistance. One slash will not kill him outright, but much more than that will.

Batman tends to be a reactive fighter, while X-23 only goes on the kill when other options fail. Which would give Batman more opportunity to notice the extent of her healing factor. Most of these posts assume a morals on Batman walking in stupidly to face a murder minded X-23. Which is what gets thrown into most Batman vs. Wolverine fights. Which fits Logan well. He really is that kind of dude. But, Laura was always more in control without the scents messing her up. Naturally, I feel Batman loses if he makes the first move, as he would be open to a fight ending claw shot early. And the cryogenic tools will be used sooner not later.

Do not forget the metal binding wraps. They will only hold for a few seconds, but that is enough for heavier things to hold her down.

P.S. Incapacitation should be the reason that Spiderman beats Wolverine in any morals on battle. Wolverine can keep on coming, but a one off fight to death, ko, or webbing up. No contest. Battle to the death, Logan all day.

#164 Edited by Erik (33329 posts) - - Show Bio

@senglord said:

@mythiic: Batman's visor can detect metal like guns and knives. It is not just from the game. So the claws will be indicating either a metahuman threat or a suicide attack.

Scans of x-ray lenses and practical use in combat please?

#165 Edited by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthenorth said:

@mythiic: batman dosnt underestimate anybody and while he wouldnt know her abilities right away but he has faced foes like the Talons who having healing factors so thats so that not going to surprise him plus a single batarang that hits her means he will be able to see her healing factor

Batman has faced plenty of strong foes that dont use weapons why whould he underestimate her plus like Wolverine she dosnt tend to hide her claws plus the fact she cant move her wrists is kind of a dead give away that she is hiding something

batman wears a cape that covers his body plus see dosnt have x ray vision how does se know its armor and yet again all his gadgets are in conseled potches he could have gum in them for all she knows

Actually, Laura often keeps her foot claws hidden as an ace up her sleeve. And she moves her wrists very well...where did you get the idea that she can't?

Yep. Great point.

#166 Edited by LordoftheNorth (1365 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik: ok we where talking about claws and why they arnt effective weapons and i guess you know nothing about martail arts or the human muscular system becuase than you would know how silly your being

sorry but that second bit makes no sense

#167 Edited by senglord (1568 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik: that was on the Wolverine info page for a long time, but it got changed. And if they had flexibility in their wrist, how do they generate force? Unless adamantium laced claws are light sabers. Besides, since when did indestructible blades suddenly mean infinitely sharp? It used to be that Wolverine tearing into a sentinel looked like he pierced it with the tip and then ripped the rest of the metal out. Like an actual animal with claws. Only the front part was super sharp, the rest was to dig into prey. Now they are supposed to be these light saber like tools that pop out of his hands. Which is stupid.

The claws will cut anything, does not mean that they can cut through anything without resistance. A slash against Kevlar with an indestructible blade will cut the Kevlar to a degree. If it were infinitely sharp as most no effort accounts suggest a hilt less sword of adamantium dropped blade first would fall to the center of the earth as if falling through air.

#168 Posted by HushoftheWind (1108 posts) - - Show Bio

meh, if Batman loses i'll just image that its Geoff John's Batman and not give a damn, but Grant Morrioson's Batman on the other hand, pfffffffft yeah right. That's just not a fight Brucie loses. This really should have been Cassandra Cain vs Laura though i would have love to seen the debate war on that fight.

#169 Posted by Shawnbaby (10867 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik: ok we where talking about claws and why they arnt effective weapons and i guess you know nothing about martail arts or the human muscular system becuase than you would know how silly your being

sorry but that second bit makes no sense

Whatever you may think of claws as weapons in Real Life...Wolverine and X-23 have proven that in the Comic Book world adamantium claws are a pretty big advantage in a fight.

#170 Posted by Erik (33329 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik: ok we where talking about claws and why they arnt effective weapons and i guess you know nothing about martail arts or the human muscular system becuase than you would know how silly your being

sorry but that second bit makes no sense

Even if your accusation of me was correct, that is completely irrelevant. Wolverine and X-23 both have shown on several occasions that opponents cannot counter-attack when cut in half.

It made no sense to you because you were too busy coming up with that totally impressive zinger about how I know nothing about martial arts or the muscular system. I would make you eat those words but hey, maybe it will be fun to hear you try to go on about how I am ignorant to both of these things.

@senglord said:

@erik: that was on the Wolverine info page for a long time, but it got changed. And if they had flexibility in their wrist, how do they generate force? Unless adamantium laced claws are light sabers. Besides, since when did indestructible blades suddenly mean infinitely sharp? It used to be that Wolverine tearing into a sentinel looked like he pierced it with the tip and then ripped the rest of the metal out. Like an actual animal with claws. Only the front part was super sharp, the rest was to dig into prey. Now they are supposed to be these light saber like tools that pop out of his hands. Which is stupid.

The claws will cut anything, does not mean that they can cut through anything without resistance. A slash against Kevlar with an indestructible blade will cut the Kevlar to a degree. If it were infinitely sharp as most no effort accounts suggest a hilt less sword of adamantium dropped blade first would fall to the center of the earth as if falling through air.

40 years of comics counter literally everything you said in this post.

#171 Edited by senglord (1568 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik: been reading Wolverine and X-men since the early 1990s. Back with the bone claws and onslaught and all of the awesome. The light saber claws are new to me. But then, Wolverine surviving a nuke head on seemed like bs. And then they did it. So yeah, I still do not believe in Wolverine being able to one shot Superman if he tries to slash him. Yeah, that is the flip side of infinite strength and infinite sharpness. It sounds retarded to say, how would he generate the force? He does not need to, because ADAMANTIUM.

Forty years of comics comply with Wolverine's claws being sharp enough to cut metal, but not cut heavy metal like butter. He ripped through the metal using his strength and power. He would punch through something and tear it out. That was what made him cool. He had these I breakable weapons that he would put into you. High end armor can take a couple of slashes at the strong points, but a super strength punch from Wolverine or X-23 will go through because that is how claws are designed.

And Wolverine has begun to have as many haters as Batman from some of the wank they have given him.

P.S. The wikis seem to indicate that Batman only has sonar, infrared, and night vision as standard to his eye visor. But, I think it is in his load out. It was used in a couple comics, but scans elude me.

P.P.S. Are you of the one shot camp for an X-23 win? Or the no effort school judging from your post.

P.P.P.S. You did not really ask why knowing who has a gun or knife would help in a fight did you? Really? There is a word to describe that, but I will reserve pronouncement.

#172 Posted by Erik (33329 posts) - - Show Bio

@senglord said:

@erik: been reading Wolverine and X-men since the early 1990s. Back with the bone claws and onslaught and all of the awesome. The light saber claws are new to me. But then, Wolverine surviving a nuke head on seemed like bs. And then they did it. So yeah, I still do not believe in Wolverine being able to one shot Superman if he tries to slash him. Yeah, that is the flip side of infinite strength and infinite sharpness. It sounds retarded to say, how would he generate the force? He does not need to, because ADAMANTIUM.

Forty years of comics comply with Wolverine's claws being sharp enough to cut metal, but not cut heavy metal like butter. He ripped through the metal using his strength and power. He would punch through something and tear it out. That was what made him cool. He had these I breakable weapons that he would put into you. High end armor can take a couple of slashes at the strong points, but a super strength punch from Wolverine or X-23 will go through because that is how claws are designed.

And Wolverine has begun to have as many haters as Batman from some of the wank they have given him.

P.S. The wikis seem to indicate that Batman only has sonar, infrared, and night vision as standard to his eye visor. But, I think it is in his load out. It was used in a couple comics, but scans elude me.

P.P.S. Are you of the one shot camp for an X-23 win? Or the no effort school judging from your post.

Wolverine does cut through heavy metals like butter. Whether this is because of his low-level super strength or the adamantium is unclear. But that doesn't really matter though because he does it regardless of what he owes it to. So does X-23.

I am on X-23's side. X-23 will have to put in effort but when she does, Batman is going to lose.

#173 Posted by senglord (1568 posts) - - Show Bio

I am still trying to see how a glancing slash will end this fight. Because that will be all she gets in a first strike with the claws. And Batman has never been the headstrong type to rush into a fight with an unknown unless PIS is on high. Add to this that X-23 is not in it for the kill and this should be a very close fight in terms of how it ends up. Between sonics, cryogenic weapons, and throwable restraints to bind low level metahumans, Batman has the tools to take a good portion of random encounters. Many posts supporting x-23 give a good argument. But some make it look like a casual backhand slash will cut Bruce in half. And that makes no sense. A few hard thrusts will end the fight shortly, but not before the ice comes into play. But an in character and not berserk Laura will try non Lethal options until her life seems threatened. Which is not the case here. It will be close, and the outcome is debatable, but the arrogance from a minority needs to be checked.

#174 Posted by senglord (1568 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik: What I am trying to say is that his claws used to shred through metal. They would tear through stuff like an effing animal. That was some awesome ish to read. And Kevlar wold be a limited protection against those kinds of claws. A slash will tear it up, but not casually cut through it as if it were not there. My issue was with using some plot adamantium to get a win as if X-23 were using light sabers in her arms. If adamantium claws=light sabers then so much of what I liked about wolverine before the bone claw mess is gone. And what is left is an incoherent mess of conflicting motives.

My entire contention boils down to if binders believe that Batman's armor can withstand a glancing slash of adamantium. Not a full goring. Because the op already establishes that neither character will start out going for the kill, we need to consider that it may not involve fast kill shots to end it from one or the other.

And batman has restraints strong enough to deal with killer croc level metahumans that he can carry on his belt. The issue then becomes if it is standard. If yes, he has a shot of full restraint for a few seconds; and therefore a win. If not, he has seriously good odds. Arguable odds to be sure, and he could die of injuries after scoring a KO, but good odds for a win.

And no, I am not saying he could take Wolverine in a random Death or KO. He would lose 10/10 long matches. But, with little doubt of the outcome.

P.S. A fight with morals strictly on to KO or incapacitation would turn this and many Wolverine vs threads tbh. He is in no way a hero, yet he gets marketed like one.

#175 Posted by Shawnbaby (10867 posts) - - Show Bio

@senglord said:

@erik: What I am trying to say is that his claws used to shred through metal. They would tear through stuff like an effing animal. That was some awesome ish to read. And Kevlar wold be a limited protection against those kinds of claws. A slash will tear it up, but not casually cut through it as if it were not there. My issue was with using some plot adamantium to get a win as if X-23 were using light sabers in her arms. If adamantium claws=light sabers then so much of what I liked about wolverine before the bone claw mess is gone. And what is left is an incoherent mess of conflicting motives.

My entire contention boils down to if binders believe that Batman's armor can withstand a glancing slash of adamantium. Not a full goring. Because the op already establishes that neither character will start out going for the kill, we need to consider that it may not involve fast kill shots to end it from one or the other.

And batman has restraints strong enough to deal with killer croc level metahumans that he can carry on his belt. The issue then becomes if it is standard. If yes, he has a shot of full restraint for a few seconds; and therefore a win. If not, he has seriously good odds. Arguable odds to be sure, and he could die of injuries after scoring a KO, but good odds for a win.

And no, I am not saying he could take Wolverine in a random Death or KO. He would lose 10/10 long matches. But, with little doubt of the outcome.

P.S. A fight with morals strictly on to KO or incapacitation would turn this and many Wolverine vs threads tbh. He is in no way a hero, yet he gets marketed like one.

You can use as much real world science as you like but real world science does not apply to comic book characters. You'd have to throw out everything you know about Batman if that were the case. No matter how "peak" any regular human is...he isn't going to be benching 1000 pounds or dodging bullets and he especially wouldn't ever be able to do both. He'd constantly be tripping over his own cape. He'd never have been able to master all those fighting styles. Or accumulate his massive knowledge on pretty much every scientific field.

Why exactly is Wolverine not a hero? He's saved the world on multiple occasions. Is it because he kills? Well then...I guess Soldiers and Police Officers can't be Heroes either.

#176 Posted by thatthomclancy (34 posts) - - Show Bio

Much as I would like to side with Batman, I have to go with X-23 in this fight. Batman is one of the best fighters in comic book history capable of some seriously amazing feats but his main strength has always been preparation. Why does Batman win when he fights Superman? Simple, he's had years of time to get to know how he fights, where his blind spots are, what he's weak to, etc... While I have no doubt that Batman would take a fight based entirely on skill, a match up between these two in this situation doesn't lend itself to Batman's strengths.

I see the fight breaking down like this, once initial contact is made, Batman will try and make it a fight on his terms. He'll go vertical, try and stay in the shadows, and observe. This will work for him to some extent but his stealth will be countered by X-23's enhanced senses. With stealth failing, Batman will take the fight to her. There will be a few good rounds before X-23 gets a good hit on the Bat. Even with the now canon twenty-four hour deathmatch that Bruce fought in prior to becoming Batman, he can't stand up to X-23's onslaught for that long. I give the fight to X-23 with Batman withdrawing to regroup, restrategize, and hit her again later with an electromagnet.

#177 Edited by Agent_Everyman (8 posts) - - Show Bio

I voted bats......

I think people tend to underestimate batman in the whole vs. wolverine fight sense but I don't think either of them would go for the kill on each other and only logan would given certain requirements that bats just would never meet for him. So let's work down from there... if neither of them are going for the kill here then how are they going to 'win' the fight? it becomes about either subduing the opponent or one escaping the other. so, logan will have bats beat on the ability to deal with pain, the healing factor and in terms of sheer brute strength but bats could still outsmart him and escape him in my mind. IF that's the case, then I think batman has what it takes to at least put a good amount of hurt on logan in order to retreat and as long as that does not count as batman being eliminated... I see batman getting the win there. if batman fleeing like a little girl would disqualify him there, then yeah he is defeated in fair combat between him and logan... but that's logan.

as for x-23, Batman has gone toe to toe with tougher people to kill then both logan or x-23 and laura doesn't have the level of skill and combat knowledge that logan does. He also offers much more in terms of physicality against batman then she does. she more then makes up for it in her speed and agility and it's fair to assume those abilities go far above batman's levels, but I think batman is a much more skilled and experienced martial combatant then laura and can subdue her before she would be able to stop him by any means.

in the end, all it takes is batman to realize that she can heal and regenerate and from there, all bats has to do is not feel guilty about how much pain he is going to cause her until she can't move any more. that's really not going to be a problem for him. she does heal faster and has less moral restraints then logan but where logan stands above laura on combat experience, skill and physicality, batman gains the edge overall in this fight despite laura's increases in healing, psychopathy, finesse, agility and speed. bats wins here... until logan runs out of beer and guts him.

*sorry about typos and anything else wrong grammatically here.... i have a demanding diva of a kitten on my wrist as I type here so this has been somewhat of a challenge.

#178 Edited by senglord (1568 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: Wolverine is not a hero because he has killed unarmed people because he does not like them. Not in self defense, just because they are evil and he felt the world would be a better place without them. It was a good call, but not his to make. That is why he is not a hero.

Hey, adamantium as you guys sell it would cut superman if wolverine really tried. Maybe seriously. The issue is not if Kevlar makes batman superman level, but at what point are adamantium claws able to act like light sabers. There was a time when they shredded through steel, tearing it open. Now, they are able to instantly slice through everything effortlessly. It is a comic book. I get it. I admit the obvious fact that they are coating sharp claws. But, the claws are not that sharp. If they were then they would cut through Batman's armor if they were just bone. That is the point. Ahem. Not science, just sense.

Light saber adamantium claws imply light saber bone claws. The process was similar to electro plating whenever it is on panel.

P.S. Is Deathstroke or Deadshot a hero because they have helped to save the world. No. Why? Because they kill people because they feel like it and not to defend themselves.

#179 Edited by VMole (635 posts) - - Show Bio

@senglord said:

@shawnbaby: Wolverine is not a hero because he has killed unarmed people because he does not like them. Not in self defense, just because they are evil and he felt the world would be a better place without them. It was a good call, but not his to make. That is why he is not a hero.

Hey, adamantium as you guys sell it would cut superman if wolverine really tried. Maybe seriously. The issue is not if Kevlar makes batman superman level, but at what point are adamantium claws able to act like light sabers. There was a time when they shredded through steel, tearing it open. Now, they are able to instantly slice through everything effortlessly. It is a comic book. I get it. I admit the obvious fact that they are coating sharp claws. But, the claws are not that sharp. If they were then they would cut through Batman's armor if they were just bone. That is the point. Ahem. Not science, just sense.

Light saber adamantium claws imply light saber bone claws. The process was similar to electro plating whenever it is on panel.

P.S. Is Deathstroke or Deadshot a hero because they have helped to save the world. No. Why? Because they kill people because they feel like it and not to defend themselves.

Sometimes it's left to some folks to do the dirty to some of the worst the world has to offer, it may as well be someone with an already stained history.

... or the Punisher, he's amazing at not giving a crap about that stuff.

To expand on that, Deadshot and Deathstroke were never considered heroes, they're mercs who do unscrupulous things for the sake of money, thrill, or whatever selfish ends they have and will never apologize for it, they've never been mistaken for heroes under any circumstance and should never be.

#180 Edited by senglord (1568 posts) - - Show Bio

@vmole: yet Deathstroke has saved the world solo. Something I have yet to see Logan do. I do not mean to say that he and Logan and Punisher are not cool and entertaining, but they are not heroes in any kind of moral sense. I was told that soldiers kill people as do cops, but those cases are either in self defense or to protect others when it is done legitimately. If a soldier kills someone they do not know just to get a paycheck, then they are a mercenary with no moral core to their actions. A hero fight for a cause in a manner that is honorable. Killing a defenseless, unarmed woman because they are evil as all he11 is something that should disqualify anyone for being a hero.

I would consider Logan to be an anti-hero. He has some heroic qualities, but some traits that are dead counter to what is seen as traditional heroic action.

And from the little I have seen of X-23, she started in a much worse position than Wolverine, yet is almost at the same place in trying to find a less violent path in life. She seems to be on a more heroic path than Logan in that respect. He all but brags at being the best killer in the world.

#181 Edited by Shawnbaby (10867 posts) - - Show Bio

@senglord said:

@shawnbaby: Wolverine is not a hero because he has killed unarmed people because he does not like them. Not in self defense, just because they are evil and he felt the world would be a better place without them. It was a good call, but not his to make. That is why he is not a hero.

Hey, adamantium as you guys sell it would cut superman if wolverine really tried. Maybe seriously. The issue is not if Kevlar makes batman superman level, but at what point are adamantium claws able to act like light sabers. There was a time when they shredded through steel, tearing it open. Now, they are able to instantly slice through everything effortlessly. It is a comic book. I get it. I admit the obvious fact that they are coating sharp claws. But, the claws are not that sharp. If they were then they would cut through Batman's armor if they were just bone. That is the point. Ahem. Not science, just sense.

Light saber adamantium claws imply light saber bone claws. The process was similar to electro plating whenever it is on panel.

P.S. Is Deathstroke or Deadshot a hero because they have helped to save the world. No. Why? Because they kill people because they feel like it and not to defend themselves.

Deadshot and Deathstroke kill people for money. They don't really care who they kill as long as there is a paycheck attached to it.

Wolverine kills people that are evil or are trying to hurt the people he cares for. He kills to protect the innocent and avenge the fallen. He doesn't kill randomly and senselessly. He kills so that others won't have to. He doesn't kill for money or pleasure. He doesn't kill people just because "he feels like it". The fact that he so often restrains from killing when killing has been programmed into him is proof of his heroism.

As far as morality goes...Its a false comparison to put Logan alongside Slade and Floyd.

#182 Edited by TheBlackHood (364 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby said:

@senglord said:

@shawnbaby: Wolverine is not a hero because he has killed unarmed people because he does not like them. Not in self defense, just because they are evil and he felt the world would be a better place without them. It was a good call, but not his to make. That is why he is not a hero.

Hey, adamantium as you guys sell it would cut superman if wolverine really tried. Maybe seriously. The issue is not if Kevlar makes batman superman level, but at what point are adamantium claws able to act like light sabers. There was a time when they shredded through steel, tearing it open. Now, they are able to instantly slice through everything effortlessly. It is a comic book. I get it. I admit the obvious fact that they are coating sharp claws. But, the claws are not that sharp. If they were then they would cut through Batman's armor if they were just bone. That is the point. Ahem. Not science, just sense.

Light saber adamantium claws imply light saber bone claws. The process was similar to electro plating whenever it is on panel.

P.S. Is Deathstroke or Deadshot a hero because they have helped to save the world. No. Why? Because they kill people because they feel like it and not to defend themselves.

Deadshot and Deathstroke kill people for money. They don't really care who they kill as long as there is a paycheck attached to it.

Wolverine kills people that are evil or are trying to hurt the people he cares for. He kills to protect the innocent and avenge the fallen. He doesn't kill randomly and senselessly. He kills so that others won't have to. He doesn't kill for money or pleasure. He doesn't kill people just because "he feels like it". The fact that he so often restrains from killing when killing has been programmed into him is proof of his heroism.

As far as morality goes...Its a false comparison to put Logan alongside Slade and Floyd.

So then you are arguing that Punisher is a hero? This is the big problem I have with Marvel and the loose morality of their heroes. You have characters like Daredevil and Captain America trying to arrest the Punisher, meanwhile they team up with Wolverine and put him on the freaking Avengers. Daredevil constantly goes after Punisher but bangs Elektra. There really is zero consistency in Marvel with who is a hero and who is an anti-hero or villain. Plus even before AvX Wolverine tried to kill Cyclops during Schism because he wanted to blow up the island and Cyclopes wouldn't let him. His first instinct during AvX was to murder a fifteen year old girl. If anything, Wolverine is MORE bloodthirsty than the Punisher. The only reason he seems to get away with it is that he kills Asian people in ninja costumes whereas Punisher kills Italian mobsters.

#183 Posted by youmessinwithme (1193 posts) - - Show Bio

X-23 she's so far Superior to him physically in every way. there's just no way he can stack up in direct conflict.

#184 Posted by Valdemocnij (613 posts) - - Show Bio

X-23... but wanna see that Batman win... although he can't do that.

#185 Posted by SlickyMike88 (226 posts) - - Show Bio

X23 has claws , I vote for the claws :)

#186 Posted by Supreme_Maj (299 posts) - - Show Bio

People are saying they have the same speed. Please are you joking or what? X might be twice faster than him and people are giving Bruce armor and all his gear how is he going to be faster than her? Guys you are starting to be like those writers at DC who don't know how to regulate a normal human being like Bruce always giving him so many feats (can fight 2 days without rest, 5 PHD or 12, in less than 20 years has master all forms of hand to hand combat(we must be serious), ), even with all of this Bruce stays always true to himself he can't harm a kid and that will be his downfall for sure

#187 Edited by micahparadise (491 posts) - - Show Bio

Laura takes this. Laura is more ferocious and quicker than wolverine. Also Laura never shows restraints and always goes for the kill. In a random encounter, Batman does have a chance. (I love Batman but he is really the king of prep. Without prep and prior knowledge of Laura, Batman,who does not kill, will try to incapacitate Laura but will find that is near impossible with the gadgets he would have on his person. )

Laura's ferociousness, relentlessness, skill, healing factor and speed and strength give her a superior advantage over Batman.

#188 Posted by senglord (1568 posts) - - Show Bio

@micahparadise: quicker in max speed is debatable. More agile, definitely. Laura has been trying to avoid going for the kill. It is part of why she even joined the X-men. Going instant psycho is going to lead to popping the claws at the start of the fight. And that is a path to failure. And last I heard her stats put her a peak human in terms of strength at least.

Short answer, if Batman could keep up with Cassandra Cain with her assassin training and body reading, Laura is not too fast for him.

P.S. How can people complain about the unrealistic ness of Batman in a comic world where someone can just move the moon to block out the sun, and the moon not fall to earth killing everyone?

Or a person born with animal claws, getting electroplated light saber claws that can affortlessly cut through feet of steel like air? There is a serious double standard here.

#189 Posted by Wolverine08 (43587 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby said:

@senglord said:

@shawnbaby: Wolverine is not a hero because he has killed unarmed people because he does not like them. Not in self defense, just because they are evil and he felt the world would be a better place without them. It was a good call, but not his to make. That is why he is not a hero.

Hey, adamantium as you guys sell it would cut superman if wolverine really tried. Maybe seriously. The issue is not if Kevlar makes batman superman level, but at what point are adamantium claws able to act like light sabers. There was a time when they shredded through steel, tearing it open. Now, they are able to instantly slice through everything effortlessly. It is a comic book. I get it. I admit the obvious fact that they are coating sharp claws. But, the claws are not that sharp. If they were then they would cut through Batman's armor if they were just bone. That is the point. Ahem. Not science, just sense.

Light saber adamantium claws imply light saber bone claws. The process was similar to electro plating whenever it is on panel.

P.S. Is Deathstroke or Deadshot a hero because they have helped to save the world. No. Why? Because they kill people because they feel like it and not to defend themselves.

Deadshot and Deathstroke kill people for money. They don't really care who they kill as long as there is a paycheck attached to it.

Wolverine kills people that are evil or are trying to hurt the people he cares for. He kills to protect the innocent and avenge the fallen. He doesn't kill randomly and senselessly. He kills so that others won't have to. He doesn't kill for money or pleasure. He doesn't kill people just because "he feels like it". The fact that he so often restrains from killing when killing has been programmed into him is proof of his heroism.

As far as morality goes...Its a false comparison to put Logan alongside Slade and Floyd.

So then you are arguing that Punisher is a hero? This is the big problem I have with Marvel and the loose morality of their heroes. You have characters like Daredevil and Captain America trying to arrest the Punisher, meanwhile they team up with Wolverine and put him on the freaking Avengers. Daredevil constantly goes after Punisher but bangs Elektra. There really is zero consistency in Marvel with who is a hero and who is an anti-hero or villain. Plus even before AvX Wolverine tried to kill Cyclops during Schism because he wanted to blow up the island and Cyclopes wouldn't let him. His first instinct during AvX was to murder a fifteen year old girl. If anything, Wolverine is MORE bloodthirsty than the Punisher. The only reason he seems to get away with it is that he kills Asian people in ninja costumes whereas Punisher kills Italian mobsters.

Why does it seem Wolverine rustles your jimmies so much?

#190 Edited by Supreme_Maj (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@senglord said:

@micahparadise: quicker in max speed is debatable. More agile, definitely. Laura has been trying to avoid going for the kill. It is part of why she even joined the X-men. Going instant psycho is going to lead to popping the claws at the start of the fight. And that is a path to failure. And last I heard her stats put her a peak human in terms of strength at least.

Short answer, if Batman could keep up with Cassandra Cain with her assassin training and body reading, Laura is not too fast for him.

P.S. How can people complain about the unrealistic ness of Batman in a comic world where someone can just move the moon to block out the sun, and the moon not fall to earth killing everyone?

Or a person born with animal claws, getting electroplated light saber claws that can affortlessly cut through feet of steel like air? There is a serious double standard here.

P.S Because them they are supposed to be Alien, Metas or Mutants (so anything can happen) if you want Batman doing all those things at least depict him as a meta or mutant not a regular human being like us in the regular world please it's comics but a little bit of logic is necessary for people to takes it

#191 Posted by Juiceboks (9766 posts) - - Show Bio

@senglord said:

@micahparadise: quicker in max speed is debatable. More agile, definitely. Laura has been trying to avoid going for the kill. It is part of why she even joined the X-men. Going instant psycho is going to lead to popping the claws at the start of the fight. And that is a path to failure. And last I heard her stats put her a peak human in terms of strength at least.

Short answer, if Batman could keep up with Cassandra Cain with her assassin training and body reading, Laura is not too fast for him.

P.S. How can people complain about the unrealistic ness of Batman in a comic world where someone can just move the moon to block out the sun, and the moon not fall to earth killing everyone?

Or a person born with animal claws, getting electroplated light saber claws that can affortlessly cut through feet of steel like air? There is a serious double standard here.

Cassie effortlessly dodged his punches and launched her own before he even knew it was coming in the most recent sparring session I can recall. That was after her fight with Shiva when Cass got her body reading back. It's pretty well established that she's faster than him.

#192 Posted by jwalser3 (5162 posts) - - Show Bio

Annndd X-23 stomps.

#193 Edited by CyberWarrior (1552 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

@cyberwarrior said:

@k4tzm4n: N'ah.

Okay, but his blood is on your hands if he loses.

Still too lazy to do this myself so... Wikipedia, may I?

"Batman relies on "his own scientific knowledge, detective skills, and athletic prowess." In the stories, Batman is regarded as one of the world's greatest detectives, if not the world's greatest crime solver. In Grant Morrison's first storyline in JLA, Superman describes Batman as "the most dangerous man on Earth," able to defeat a team of superpowered aliens by himself in order to rescue his imprisoned teammates. He has spent a significant portion of his life traveling the world and acquiring the skills needed to aid in his crusade against crime. His knowledge and expertise in almost every discipline known to man is nearly unparalleled by any other character in the DC Universe.

Batman is an expert in interrogation techniques and would often use law enforcement methods. Batman has been repeatedly described as one of the greatest martial artists in the DC Universe; his skills in martial arts are said to rival such notable martial artists as Bronze Tiger, Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon.

Batman has the ability to function while tolerating massive amounts of physical pain, withstand telepathy and mind control. He is a master of disguise, often gathering information under the identity of Matches Malone, a notorious gangster. Also, his ninjutsu training has made him a master at stealth where he can can appear and disappear in rather impossible situations. He is efficient with observation skills, deductive reasoning, and forensic investigation.

- "For The Win Bruce."

#194 Posted by Lvenger (20691 posts) - - Show Bio

Too many good arguments have been made for Laura in this thread so I feel obliged to show that support in my vote. Laura is definitely faster, more lethal and too difficult for Bruce to put down in character. Plus her being a seemingly innocent teenage girl will keep him from truly going all out whereas Laura won't have too many problems slashing a wackjob in a bat costume from her perspective. Batman's skill, stealth and gadgets will make things hard for Laura but her enhanced senses, healing factor and claws should enable her to take a majority of in character wins. Out of character though, an all out Batman would win IMO.

#195 Posted by Praetor_fenix (222 posts) - - Show Bio

X-23 they're both relentless, cunning, skilled and vicious fighters, if not for Laura's HF Batman should win. But an HF is not something to underestimate, besides, relentless + HF = nightmare.

#196 Edited by theodixon9 (542 posts) - - Show Bio

This is how I think the battle would play out:

  1. Batman throws tear gas in front of him to slow X-23 down. However, X-23 dashes through the gas towards Batman.
  2. Batman and X-23 fight with each other in hand-to-hand combat. Batman starts to defeat her with some difficulty and this is when she brings out the claws.
  3. Batman struggles to avoid X-23's claws and is eventually slashed. The strike slices through his armor and this is when he realizes that this girl is very dangerous.
  4. Because Batman has trained and worked with so many younger martial artists including all of the Robins, Batman knows how deadly juveniles can be so he starts using more and more deadly moves like nerves strikes. However, X-23 just keeps getting back up. The Dark Knight guesses she has some kind of healing factor.
  5. To test his theory, Batman throws every regular batterang he's got at her and his theory is proven right when she heals from every cut in a few seconds.
  6. Now Batman knows about X-23's powers, he can go all out to defeat her. However, he's been fighting for a while and is starting to get tired from dodging so many attacks.
  7. Batman knows he can't keep this up for much longer so uses a sonic grenade which gives him time to get out of arms range.
  8. After a short time, X-23 gets back up. However, Batman throws more deadly types of batterang (any kind will do) and his opponent avoids them via backflips, twist and turns.
  9. This is when Batman throws his ice pellets at X-23. As she is a little distorted and dizzy from avoiding all those batterangs, X-23 cannot dodge all of the pellets and is frozen.
#197 Posted by jashro44 (22796 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said:

Annndd X-23 stomps.

No she doesn't.

#198 Posted by senglord (1568 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: This was to show her skills. And when she did have her body reading she could not beat Bruce before he trained her. That is fact. Claiming one high showing of a sparring match says nothing of an actual fight. Bishop beat Wolverine in a sparring match, means nothing in a real fight. ABC logic would have so many people able to catch Cass after that high showing that it could be seen as an all time high mark. Note, her mother held back when she fought, and when it was serious she beat her. It was only after being brought back by the Lazarus pit that she was strong and determined enough to really defeat her. Making the fact that Cass is indeed faster than Bruce not as important as the fact that he could beat or stalemate someone very near to her level of martial arts ability. Making most of the sparring a matter of demonstration of how awesome Cass was as a character. Actual fights with credible opponents never went that way.

Regarding Laura's speed, I feel certain she is not as fast as Cassandra Cain. But, aside from sparring matches, there is more evidence that Bruce could hold his own against Cass in a hand to hand fight than him getting blitzed in two seconds. Making the blitz argument shaky at best.

And for the record, it has been shown on panel what anyone with sense would know about having retractable claws embedded in your forearms. That secret is that you need an INSANELY high healing factor to use them and not kill yourself. Seriously, just look up Wolverine: Killable. When those claws pop --bloodlessly-- Batman will know he is fighting an opponent with Talon plus level durability. Cryogenic weapons and restraints will be the only way out.

#199 Edited by k4tzm4n (48633 posts) - - Show Bio

Finding Viner Arguments of the Week shall not be fun...

#200 Posted by Juiceboks (9766 posts) - - Show Bio

@senglord

This was to show her skills. And when she did have her body reading she could not beat Bruce before he trained her. That is fact. Claiming one high showing of a sparring match says nothing of an actual fight. Bishop beat Wolverine in a sparring match, means nothing in a real fight. ABC logic would have so many people able to catch Cass after that high showing that it could be seen as an all time high mark.

They never fought before he trained her and helped her lose the body reading so she could communicate more clearly IIRC. When did Bishop beat Wolverine in a sparring match? Context? It matters when your opponent literally can't land a single hit on you, which was evident from the sparring. We know Cass isn't more skilled than Batman, so it's obviously chocked up to her advantage in speed and body reading. It wasn't an "all time high mark" because her speed feats such as outrunning bullets and effortlessly sidestepping sniper fire inches from her face suggest she is faster than Baman. I don't know why ABC logic would be applicable here..or why would you'd even bring it up.

Note, her mother held back when she fought, and when it was serious she beat her. It was only after being brought back by the Lazarus pit that she was strong and determined enough to really defeat her

She only held back the time when she killed Cassie, and at that moment Cassie was emotionally conflicted. When she came back Shiva lost in a good match. After that, Cassie went back and stomped her and had the opportunity to kill her but chose not to. My main point is that Cassandra is indeed faster than Batman, and while Bruce could probably hold his own in a fight he would still be at a significant speed disadvantage and would have to resort to other strategies to win. He never could "keep up" with her in h2h as that would imply that he's as fast as her..which he's not.