Batman and Solid Snake vs Wolverine

@higorm:

I doubt Logan would actually go feral during the fight, but I do see your point.

@wolverine08: Well, maybe not in the beginning, but, as the fight goes, after taking a few shots, batarangs, explosions, etc, I can see him going feral gradually..

If bat uses this they win if not wolverine wins 7/10

If your referring to wolverine going berserk he actually doesn't lose any of his skills. In fact when he went berserk he was able to defeat Ogun and mister X, and it was even suggested in savage wolverine #7 that he uses his skill to the best of his abilities in that state. He also doesn't feel any pain when he goes berserk.

@higorm:

He'll get mad and most likely try to rip Batman apart until he is a bunch of body parts all across the place (Most likely achieving his goal), but I doubt he'd really go feral.He doesn't do that often, and you really have to push him to go that far.

I don't take the Savage Wolverine showing that seriously to be frank. The moment saying that Wolverine can't fight well in the beginning of a fight is inconsistent with his performances against skilled fighters in my opinion.

That´s my point exactly, what I was trying to say. If the team doesn´t hit him hard from the start, he will eventually go berserk, since the duo is skilled enough to avoid the first strikes, but can´t do it forever, so he would end up tagging them in the end..

You know, that´s the scenario I´m picturing right now, Bruce and Solid will have to push him hard to bring him down, but they have to do it from the start, or they will be only contributing for his feral state. Since this is a random encounter, Im not sure if they can manage to do it, considering Wolverine can and will tank bullets, explosions and most of their weapons and gear, and the duo being high skilled characters, Wolverine will get mad and mad until there´s nothing more to think, only the killer instinct.

Not sure if I agree. There are a number of other instances which suggest that wolverine isn't very disciplined. And it is consistent with the current killable story. The reason is different however the same idea is there.

@higorm:

You know, that´s the scenario I´m picturing right now, Bruce and Solid will have to push him hard to bring him down, but they have to do it from the start, or they will be only contributing for his feral state. Since this is a random encounter, Im not sure if they can manage to do it, considering Wolverine can and will tank bullets, explosions and most of their weapons and gear, and the duo being high skilled characters, Wolverine will get mad and mad until there´s nothing more to think, only the killer instinct.

Agreed. I can see were you are coming from here. Bruce and Solid are going to be hard pressed to put Wolverine before he becomes too much to handle.

@higorm: All right my mistake. I should have read the previous page.

The lack of discipline part I fully agree with. That has been expounded upon a plethora of times throughout Wolverine's history (Manifest Destiny comes to mind regarding this topic). What I don't fully agree with is that he needs to berserk to be skilled. He has numerous moments where he has either defeated or held his own extremely well against skilled fighters without resorting to go feral.

I´m aware of that, but even if we go for another scenario, things don´t get better for the team IMHO. Either If Logan incline to use more of his skill than just jump after the team trying to cut them off, or continues to chase them taking anything they may deliver, thing will get ugly for them either way. The only chance is to strike him hard from the start, at specific points, but they can´t do it properly since they doesn´t know him, doesn´t know about the healing factor and adamantium, and since Batman doesn´t go for the kill when facing his enemies, Wolverine would eventually come on top after a good fight.

@jashro44: no problem :)

@wolverine08: glad we could reach an agreement :)

@wolverine08: I don't necessarily agree with the part about him going berserk however I do think it does sort of make sense he can't use his skill right off the bat. Realistically if Logan didn't train or practice that would mean his skills aren't imprinted in his muscle memory. In fact since Logan does do things like run through gun fire a lot this means that he would realistically rely on his healing factor more in combat due to muscle memory..

I do interpret what Wells is trying to say is that Logan is one of the best fighters in the marvel universe however because he relies on his healing factor he has to consciously think to use his skills. Wolverine doesn't just react the same way people like black panther, daredevil, and captain america do, he has to actually tell himself to dodge where as they just do it because of muscle memory. Logan has grown to rely on his healing factor and he uses it for a defense so he needs to kind of re-memorize his martial arts ability.

This is my belief about Logans style. I think he could be the best martial artist in marvel in terms of knowledge and training however when it comes to discipline he is lacking. I think Cornell is going to make Logan become more disciplined in the story arc after killable.

I agree. All I am saying is that all though some of what Wells said I do disagree I do think he has a fair point about Logans skill....

@jashro44:

Ah, well said. I think I could roll with that interpretation regarding Wolverine, his martial art skill, and his application of it. I do also agree that Cornell is seeming to be trying to go for a more disciplined Wolverine after his Killable arc, but I don't see how Logan using guns achieves that. Lol.

Wolverines going to be using guns?

Yup.

http://www.comicbooktherapy.com/wolvies-got-gun-cornell-stegman-relaunching-wolverine-170654

@wolverine08: Weird. I didn't notice wolverine was carrying a pistol on that cover....

Snake was 70+ year old body in MGS4, he was actually only in his late 30s, early 40s during the time. His Body was aged super fast.

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: @nickzambuto: @jashro44:

I can understand explosions. The real damage from explosions is the shock wave which pulps the body, or the shrapnel that catches you.

Skip to 12:15.

Wolverine can tank Explosions because the shock wave or minor shrapnel does nothing.

Now if you want to talk about Atmosphere re entry. That is different from Explosions as it is super heated burning that would burned wolverine into a skeleton.

Gallery

Wolverine is not fire proof. Not at all. Yet...

Gallery

Here he tanks with no problem heat so intense it melts steel!

BS and inconsistent. i call that PIS.

@cadencev2:

He tanked heat hot enough to burn most of his flesh away when he took that explosion from Nitro during Civil War and he was actively healing in New X-Men when he was standing beside the Sun with Jean Grey (As the Phoenix) in Grant Morrison's New-X-Men.. The Savage Wolverine feat really isn't that different from most of Wolverine's feats where he is tanking insane amounts of heat.

However what was the KO time frame? Im not saying he cannot heal fro a attack, Im saying in the Atmosphere re entry he never lost any flesh which is inconsistent with the Smelted Tank and Nitro feat. It in no way compares as it should.

Again, if Gorgon can KO Logan with fist and sword, how am I expected to believe Wolverine can tank a mini nuke explosion and be fine right after? That is foolish and illogical.

@cadencev2:

However what was the KO time frame? Im not saying he cannot heal fro a attack, Im saying in the Atmosphere re entry he never lost any flesh which is inconsistent with the Smelted Tank and Nitro feat. It in no way compares as it should.

He actually did lose flesh during the Savage Wolverine feat from my perspective. In the first picture in the second panel, Logan's face is clearly on fire and you can see he has lost flesh, in the second little picture of the second he is still injured, the third panel Logan's face looks a little better because he had begun healing, and in the fourth and final picture of the second panel, you can see that he is fully healed as he was free falling through the sky. Then the third panel began where he left off from the moment in sky full healed.

Again, if Gorgon can KO Logan with fist and sword, how am I expected to believe Wolverine can tank a mini nuke explosion and be fine right after? That is foolish and illogical.

You are looking for logicality in a grotesquely illogical medium mate. Gorgon used his noticeable superior physicals, great skill, and stabbing weapon to rip out and completely displace Logan's organs from his body. When he's tanking explosions and extreme amounts of heat consistently , his organs are just injured, not displaced from his body, still allowing him to heal and recover from those type of injuries.

@cadencev2: I looked at the gameplay.And his body does look old,it just looks likes its in the 50 or maybe 60s..Where doeit say 70?

See that is the problem with Wolverine high ends. The Heat from Nitro and from the Smelting Tank consistently burned that flesh off to the skelleton. Yet Atmosphere Reentry does not? The heat of atmosphere reentry burns so hot, that a solid rock the size of my car will be burned into the size of a pebble. Space Shuttles must be made from super heat resistant metals and tiles or the shuttle would melt.

Wolverine Flesh > Meteorites and most Metals on earth? No way. It is pure PIS.

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: @jashro44: and this goes for you 2 as well for bringing the feat up >_>

my grandfather who smokes and drinks looks younger than Snake and he is in his early 60s. Its logical how Snake looks in his 70s if not older.

Edit: also if you watched the end, Big Boss was in his 20s in MGS3, by time he met Snake he would have been in in his 100s! 100s!!!! And he looks same age as Snake and even overpowers Snake with his 100 year old body. Snake is at the least pushing 70+.

@cadencev2:

He was losing flesh throughout the Savage Wolverine feat. It's clearly evident in panel 2.

Losing Flesh should be Skeleton. He barely lost flesh in the feat.

He lost flesh. His face was clearly almost burned off. Making it consistent with his other feats where he loses flesh when he encounters explosions and extreme heat and manages to heal through them.

Atmosphere reentry is like throwing yourself in lava for a minuet. The feat is flat out PIS. You can try to justify it, I will not go against science.

The biggest problem with your gripe ultimately fails when you consider the nature of comics themselbes. Comic book artists and writers rarely, if ever actively consider science when they are creating comics. Maybe in Ultimate Marvel Comics or in comics specializing in realism, but most major Marvel and DC comics could care less about adhering to science, so trying to judge feats based on science is going to pretty much make almost every feat ever accomplished plot induced stupidity. Powerhouses regularly lift large masses that according to science, should collapse on top of them due to their largely superior mass. Are you therefor going to really call every major lifting feat (Lifting planets) accomplished by powerhouses plot induced stupidity?

The biggest grip I have has do with with people who cannot distinguish PIS and Legit Feats. We are on a debating forum, how can you possibly debate anything if you apply inconsistent feats? Its retarded. Wolverine should never be KOed by anyone as some of these feats suggest.

Batman should be Mach 2 in speed as some feats suggest.

Superman should destroy all 9 planets with little effort as some feats suggest.

Problem is people tend to forget the average showing of feats (Which is taking into account low ends with high ends) as the standard.

Marvel and DC are the ONLY Culprits of PIS in 99% of these debates. Image, Dark Horse, Dynamite Comics, IDW, Vailant, and other Indie comics tend to have a consistent writer and feats. Most Mangas have consistent feats with minor exceptions like DDZ which was written by a idiot.

That is my gripe on the battle forums. People like Spider Man and his way of the spider becomes too much for say Ironman, or Majestic somehow moves planets with ease barely beats back Captain Atom. Or Black Adam mind resists Manhunters TP yet it works on Specter of all freaking people!

Its rampant. I do not put up with it and I do have a habit to call BS when I see it.

@cadencev2:

We go by consistency here. If Superman regularly has nanosecond reaction times, he react in the nanosecond range. If Batman can regularly dodge bullets and have reflexes to do things before people can register them by he can do it. If Wolverine regularly tanks explosions and extreme heat more often than he cannot, he can tank explosions. If Spider-Man, can regularly dodge 4000 FPS bullets, he can. We use consistency to deal with sporadic low showings that are inconsistent here.

Superman has trouble busting Moon. Consistent.

Batman aim dodges and disappearing in front of people is not super speed. Daken will tell you that!

Spider Man ONCE dodges 4000 FPS bullet and was tagged by guys like Bullseye and punisher other times. Consistent he is not 4000 FPS speed. most Bullets are 1200 FPS! huge difference and a major high end to his consistent feats.

What you obviously see as consistent is not.

I was speaking hypothetically in that if Superman did regularly blow up planets but had a showing where he is unable to blow up a planet , we would brush off that one showing and go for the more numerous and consistent times in which he "did" blow up planets. A real example would be if Superman does have consistent reaction times (Which he does have), we consider him in the nanosecond reaction range even if he gets one showing in which he can't react in the nanosecond range. I never called Batman's disappearing super speed.......

if you are talking Hypotheticals thats fine, however people tend to view these things as everyday facts.

True. In the end, I go with consistency. If a character has let's say, six plus showings of being to do something, yet gets two showings where cannot perform that particular feat, I'll side with the six plus moments.

@cadencev2: Could you give me a link where I can get all of this info??I thought the body armor he wore during the last mission improved his stats?

The Octo Camo improved his stats to compensate for his age. Then in the battle with Ocelot the suit was destroyed by the microwave hallway.

As read. Otocon then comments with it helping Snake as a crutch due to his age.

Skip to 2:15 to end.

I'm giving it to the team at least 7/10 times.

@kingares109: Want to know how Old Old Snake is?

Old enough that a normal man would be unable to stand. That is pushing 90+ years of age guy.

So when I say 70+ year old body, I am being very generous.

In this fight Snake is in his prime.

With all do respect, you must not have met many 50 or 60 year olds. Snake is clearly pushing his 80s just by the look in his face, and the novel confirms him to be around that age specifically, in addition to naming a multitude of age-related disorders Snake is victim to (arthritis, enlarged heart, hardened arteries, and something was wrong with his lungs)

That picture of Snake and Hulk is awesome. lol

Hell yeah!

@nickzambuto: With all due respect,you must have,or you just don't have a clue that all 60 and 50 are not the same.Snake is a video game character. so how the hell am I suppose to know his body age buy looking at a TV?Better yet what 70 or 80 year old goes around doing missions?Clown!

Regardless the Sub Title scans are there for ya future reference.

bump

Wolverine wins.

Wolverine stomps.

Healing factor + Adamantium equals invulnerability. Solid never had to fight anything like him before. If Batman uses prep time and makes a HF blade or uses the magnets the team die a terrible death.