Batgirl & Robin vs Punisher

Bump.

Frank

So?...Superboy is a Superman clone!...if he gets distracted, then what?...he becomes human? lol, no.

Distracted or not, Superboy is still waaaaay stronger, waaaaay faster and waaaaay more durable than The Punisher...sure, Tim couldn't had done it, without his gear, but that doesn't count as using gadgets, he just used his standard gear, and only guns are not allowed here...could Tim Drake do what he did, if Superboy wasn't distracted? probably not...but saying that it's not a good feat because Superboy was distracted...lol, i would like to see Punisher making a "distracted Superboy", bleed...

@bat_girl_cc: Considering a distracted Superboy was cut by a wing and made to bleed by someone with Olympic athlete strength at best, I'm pretty sure Frank could do the same. He was tantamount to human in that instance.

Although of course you're going to do what plenty of devout bat family fans on this site do - twist context to hype your favourites.

If you seriously want us all to believe that Tim Drake can batter kryptonians you'll need to do a hell of a lot better than that.

Of course that's not what i'm saying...what i'm saying is, even if Superboy wasn't at the peak of his capabillities, (and he wasn't) he was still much stronger, much faster, and much more durable than Frank...(which means, that Tim Drake could also hurt him, and being more skilled, would basically make it a stomp) unless if when Superboy is "distracted" he stops being a kryptonian...but that was never stated anywhere, to my knowledge.

@bat_girl_cc: Right. So go ahead and tell me exactly how durable a distracted Superboy who isn't using his powers properly is.

QFT.

Superboy is 1/2 human. His power is tactile kinesis (which is a great nod to John Byrne's explanation Superman's flight and strength). If he is not using his power, like he was not in those scans, he is a teenager in body armor. Even if he is peak human, a possibility, his Kryptonian heritage manifests as the tactile kinesis. He doesn't any other of Superman's attributes or powers. When he is distracted, or not aware of a threat, his powers don't kick in. He himself said so:

He gets stunned by a tire iron, like I would be stunned by a football tackle. And we see Robin's wings slice into him the same as any human.

Frank was punched by people with real superhuman strength and fared better. US Agent, a 10 ton strength character, and Paladin, a 1-ton strength character, punch Frank and he withstands it (though hurt). He is able to stun US Agent with a punch. Here are the scans (from Punisher: No Escape) - My question is , what are Batgirl and Robin going to do to him that Paladin and US Agent can't.

Well, in the New 52 without using T.K Superboy easly benched 3 tons...he also managed to destroy an entire prison complex while he was unconscious.

The point is, "being distrated" doesn't make Superboy human...it just stops him from beeing 100% effective, since he depends on the using of T.K

@bat_girl_cc: Hmm... Your out of context over-hyping, or what was posted above....... very tough to pick a side on this one.

@dogsoldier88 said:

@i_like_swords said:

@bat_girl_cc: Right. So go ahead and tell me exactly how durable a distracted Superboy who isn't using his powers properly is.

QFT.

Superboy is 1/2 human. His power is tactile kinesis (which is a great nod to John Byrne's explanation Superman's flight and strength). If he is not using his power, like he was not in those scans, he is a teenager in body armor. Even if he is peak human, a possibility, his Kryptonian heritage manifests as the tactile kinesis. He doesn't any other of Superman's attributes or powers. When he is distracted, or not aware of a threat, his powers don't kick in. He himself said so:

He gets stunned by a tire iron, like I would be stunned by a football tackle. And we see Robin's wings slice into him the same as any human.

Frank was punched by people with real superhuman strength and fared better. US Agent, a 10 ton strength character, and Paladin, a 1-ton strength character, punch Frank and he withstands it (though hurt). He is able to stun US Agent with a punch. Here are the scans (from Punisher: No Escape) - My question is , what are Batgirl and Robin going to do to him that Paladin and US Agent can't.

Superboy is not a human with kryptonian powers...his DNA was cloned from Superman's, so like it or not, he's a kryptonian....what you're saying is like me saying, that because gohan is the sun of chichi, he' not a sayan...which is not true.

Superboy's "powers" work when he is aware of a threat...when he fought Red Robin, he was in the middle of battle against the Teen Titans, so i'm sure he was aware of the danger...so, his "powers" were working, he just wasn't at a 100% due to being distracted by Red Robin.

The Punisher feats that you provided are cool, but they don't really add much to the debate, since everyone here, agrees that Punisher is more durable than the team...but not durable enough to make him "harmless".

Batman who his "just" peak-human, has tanked hits from Deathstroke, and was able to trade a few blows with him, and D.S is easly a 10-15 tonner.

As you can see in the scan above, after getting punched and kicked several times by a 10-15 tonner, Batman was still able to back elbow him in the neck...which means that the feats that you provided are not above peak-human.

You can find some meta-human feats from him, but overall, Punisher has peak-human condition, and a meta-human pain-tolerance (not durabilly).

@bat_girl_cc:

STRAWMAN ALERT: "Superboy is not a human with kryptonian powers...his DNA was cloned from Superman's, so like it or not, he's a kryptonian....what you're saying is like me saying, that because gohan is the sun of chichi, he' not a sayan...which is not true."

Bravo for defeating your own argument. My statement was -

"Superboy is 1/2 human. His power is tactile kinesis (which is a great nod to John Byrne's explanation Superman's flight and strength). If he is not using his power, like he was not in those scans, he is a teenager in body armor. Even if he is peak human, a possibility, his Kryptonian heritage manifests as the tactile kinesis. He doesn't (have) any other of Superman's attributes or powers. When he is distracted, or not aware of a threat, his powers don't kick in."

Nothing in your Strawman refuted anything I said. I said he is only half human, which prevents him from having Superman's full range of Kryptonian attributes and abilities (see the bolded type). I will say again, his Kryptonian heritage manifests as the tactile kinesis. This is how he simulates a host of superman's abilities - like flight, super strength, a measure of invulnerability. With his TK field up, Robin's kick or his wing slice would have done ZERO damage. That guy's crow bar - ZERO damage. He also simulates Superman's super hearing and X-ray vision using his TK - something you'd know if you read N52 Superboy No. 2.

Did you also know that his psionic abilities manifest in powers that Clark and Kara don't posses? Did you read how Superboy learned Kryptonian after merely touching Kara in Superboy No. 6? He also has a TK blast that no other Kryptonian (except another clone - H'el) has. Oh, and if you read that issue then you already know that he can't breathe in space like Kara can. But UNLIKE Kryptonians, he is not affected by Kryptonite. This little fact is what Rose Wilson used to distract Superboy into lowering his TK field, allowing her to gut him with her sword and put him down. Without the TK, N.O.W.H.E.R.E. was able to keep him harnessed in a power dampening device and secured - because tactile TK is Superboy's only Kryptonian super power. Everything I just said is found in the pages of N52 Superboy No. 7. Here are the scans:

Gallery

Well now that THAT'S over...

Punisher CAN beat Robin and Batgirl, until they gas him. They will have to use all their gadgets, and why not? The ____-tarded OP is setup by another Bat-fan trying to nerf Frank and have a little stroke session disguised as a Battle.

Hand Barbara and Tim an unloaded AR, 5 clips each, same for Frank, and have them stand 50 yards apart. He will kill them bothwith head shots before they can properly load their first clips. Hell, give Frank a Berretta Neos .22LR pistol with 1 clip. At 50 yards, same result.

I'm done with this thread. You want to continue debating, PM me. Otherwise, enjoy.

Gallery

@dogsoldier88: You're a god damn animal man. Nice work.

@i_like_swords: @dogsoldier88: Well done both of you, I went into this thread thinking the team would have this, but you've convinced me that Frank should actually take this. I'm usually too stubborn to have my mind changed.

Team stomps

@granitesoldier: Ah, awesome. We're finally earning Frank the street cred he deserves, one bat-thread at a time.

@dogsoldier88 said:

@bat_girl_cc:

STRAWMAN ALERT: "Superboy is not a human with kryptonian powers...his DNA was cloned from Superman's, so like it or not, he's a kryptonian....what you're saying is like me saying, that because gohan is the sun of chichi, he' not a sayan...which is not true."

Bravo for defeating your own argument. My statement was -

"Superboy is 1/2 human. His power is tactile kinesis (which is a great nod to John Byrne's explanation Superman's flight and strength). If he is not using his power, like he was not in those scans, he is a teenager in body armor. Even if he is peak human, a possibility, his Kryptonian heritage manifests as the tactile kinesis. He doesn't (have) any other of Superman's attributes or powers. When he is distracted, or not aware of a threat, his powers don't kick in."

Nothing in your Strawman refuted anything I said. I said he is only half human, which prevents him from having Superman's full range of Kryptonian attributes and abilities (see the bolded type). I will say again, his Kryptonian heritage manifests as the tactile kinesis. This is how he simulates a host of superman's abilities - like flight, super strength, a measure of invulnerability. With his TK field up, Robin's kick or his wing slice would have done ZERO damage. That guy's crow bar - ZERO damage. He also simulates Superman's super hearing and X-ray vision using his TK - something you'd know if you read N52 Superboy No. 2.

Did you also know that his psionic abilities manifest in powers that Clark and Kara don't posses? Did you read how Superboy learned Kryptonian after merely touching Kara in Superboy No. 6? He also has a TK blast that no other Kryptonian (except another clone - H'el) has. Oh, and if you read that issue then you already know that he can't breathe in space like Kara can. But UNLIKE Kryptonians, he is not affected by Kryptonite. This little fact is what Rose Wilson used to distract Superboy into lowering his TK field, allowing her to gut him with her sword and put him down. Without the TK, N.O.W.H.E.R.E. was able to keep him harnessed in a power dampening device and secured - because tactile TK is Superboy's only Kryptonian super power. Everything I just said is found in the pages of N52 Superboy No. 7. Here are the scans:

Gallery

Well now that THAT'S over...

Punisher CAN beat Robin and Batgirl, until they gas him. They will have to use all their gadgets, and why not? The ____-tarded OP is setup by another Bat-fan trying to nerf Frank and have a little stroke session disguised as a Battle.

Hand Barbara and Tim an unloaded AR, 5 clips each, same for Frank, and have them stand 50 yards apart. He will kill them bothwith head shots before they can properly load their first clips. Hell, give Frank a Berretta Neos .22LR pistol with 1 clip. At 50 yards, same result.

I'm done with this thread. You want to continue debating, PM me. Otherwise, enjoy.

Gallery

1) I have no-idea of what you meant by: "Bravo for defeating your own argument"...you were obviously implying that Superboy is basically a human with kryptonian powers, which is not true, by saying: "Superboy is 1/2 human. His power is tactile kinesis (which is a great nod to John Byrne's explanation Superman's flight and strength). If he is not using his power, like he was not in those scans, he is a teenager in body armor. Even if he is peak human, a possibility," which makes no sense, since his DNA was cloned from Superman's!...and i replyed to you, to tell you that.

2) " With his TK field up, Robin's kick or his wing slice would have done ZERO damage. That guy's crow bar - ZERO damage. He also simulates Superman's super hearing and X-ray vision using his TK - something you'd know if you read N52 Superboy No. 2.

Did you also know that his psionic abilities manifest in powers that Clark and Kara don't posses? Did you read how Superboy learned Kryptonian after merely touching Kara in Superboy No. 6? He also has a TK blast that no other Kryptonian (except another clone - H'el) has. Oh, and if you read that issue then you already know that he can't breathe in space like Kara can. But UNLIKE Kryptonians, he is not affected by Kryptonite."

And?...what has this to do with anything i said?...i know, that Superboy's T.K "amp" his abillities, and even allow him to do stuff that he wouldn't be able to do, without it...so?...all i said, is that Superboy without his T.K is still Superboy...and taking down Superboy with or without T.K is still very impressive, and way above the Punisher's league.

The crowbar make him feel a little pain, big deal...no damage, what-so-ever!...as for Tim Drake, his razor sharp wings, did more damage to Superboy's suit, than to Superboy himself.

Also i never said that Superboy is exactly like Superman, did i?...(totally irrelevant) Supergirl is also different from both of them...and so is Powergirl...but the basics remain the same, super-strengh, super-speed, invulnerabillity, etc.

" This little fact is what Rose Wilson used to distract Superboy into lowering his TK field, allowing her to gut him with her sword and put him down."

PIS, that sword should have been broken into 2.

And just as a side note: The Ravager that fought Superboy is a beast in the new 52:

" Without the TK, N.O.W.H.E.R.E. was able to keep him harnessed in a power dampening device and secured "

So?

" because tactile TK is Superboy's only Kryptonian super power. "

Is that so?...then how do you explain this?:

Superboy is unconscious, and his "kryptonian metabolism" is still working...noticed his healling factor?...now, where did he get that from?...did he got it from his human half?...i doubt it!

Superboy effortlessy kicked that truck away without any T.K whatsoever...face it! Superboy is Superboy..."distracted", sleeping, unconscious, with T.K without T.K whatever.

3) " Punisher CAN beat Robin and Batgirl, until they gas him. They will have to use all their gadgets, and why not? The ____-tarded OP is setup by another Bat-fan trying to nerf Frank and have a little stroke session disguised as a Battle.

Hand Barbara and Tim an unloaded AR, 5 clips each, same for Frank, and have them stand 50 yards apart. He will kill them bothwith head shots before they can properly load their first clips. Hell, give Frank a Berretta Neos .22LR pistol with 1 clip. At 50 yards, same result. "

This Batgirl is Stephanie Brown, and not Barbara Gordon...look at the image pic on the O.P.

Punisher can beat Batgirl and Robin, if guns are allowed, sure...but to make it a fair fight, then, Batgirl and Robin would have to use their gadgets...anyway, in order to further debate this matter, ask to the O.P's creator if he wants to allow guns and gadgets in this fight, if he says "ok"...then, i have no problem keeping this up, but it's not up to me...as for now, let's stay on topic.

@bat_girl_cc: I'm still waiting on an answer.

Exactly?...i can't tell...but i can tell, that he's still much stronger, much faster, and much more durable than Frank.

I mean, just take a look to my previous post...even without his T.K he can still send a truck flying with one kick...he also still has an insane healling factor, which works even if he's unconscious, etc.

Is that cassandra cain? If it is then team, if not then Frank.

@bat_girl_cc:

Exactly?...i can't tell...but i can tell, that he's still much stronger, much faster, and much more durable than Frank.

I mean, just take a look to my previous post...even without his T.K he can still send a truck flying with one kick...he also still has an insane healling factor, which works even if he's unconscious, etc.

Mmhmm. So you're using an unquantifiable at best feat. And realistically speaking, we're dealing with a feat where Tim Drake is beating up on a depowered Superboy. It's not a feat for Drake, because all you're doing is misconstruing and exaggerating Superboy's kryptonian heritage. His kryptonian powers are embedded in his telekinesis. His telekinesis is how he powers everything else - strength, durability, flight, all of it. Unless you're seriously now trying to suggest that Superboy, a kryptonian who's physicals are obviously far beyond Frank's, can now be beaten on by Tim Drake who isn't even strong to begin with, never mind enhanced to the point he can batter mid/high tiers.

Fact is you can't prove anything about Superboys power level in this state one way or the other. For all we know he's a 27 tonner or powerless. Considering Tim Drake beat on him, and a wing drew blood from him, me and anyone else with common sense or a lack of obvious bias is leaning towards the latter.

Please, start being a bit more realistic and stop reaching for the hills.

Nope, Stephanie.

It should be current versions unless it was current as of over 3 years sgo which was a little right before new 52 started

Puinisher breaks the rules and wins via sword gun.

@i_like_swords: Thought so :P. I can see Frank winning this, stephanie suckzz.

Someone had to say it.

@i_like_swords: I'll turn it into a trademark from now on.

- Stephanie suckzz

@eisenfauste: I like it. Take the capital s away too, just to add spice.

No guns? wtf team stomps, they are much more skilled h2h.

@i_like_swords: Gotcha.

-stephanie suckzz

@keenko said:

Puinisher breaks the rules and wins via sword gun.

Lmao

Fair enough...you're right, and i don't have a good counter to this :P

I'll put up another argument for the team...for now Punisher wins.

I dont know how exactly superboy got pulled into this (I seriously hope the argument wasn't frank can also beat superboy :p) but im not gonna try to look into it. As far as the initial fight goes I'm starting to see better examples of why frank might win against the team, but call me a skeptic if i root for the underdog(s)

Punisher has no chance here actually. He's down to hand to hand here and Tim is better than him. Tim also has better gear and gadgets. Stephanie probably won't do much but she'll be a nice distraction.

@jayc1324: Nothing you said in that post countered the arguments presented for Frank.

Well, New 52 Tim Drake easly toke down Superboy, but New 52 Superboy depends alot of his Tactile T.K and for that, he has to focus, and Tim knows it, and keeped him distracted, long enough to take him down...now, the question is, is a depowered Superboy still above Frank's league? i think he is!...he has some very good showings even without using his T.K...but i can't prove it, because there's no way to know how powerful Superboy is, in a situation where he's depowered...mainly due to the New 52 still being a child...but given enough time, i belive that Superboy will keep proving that he doesn't need his T.K and his feats without it, will become more consistent....then, i will say, that a depowered Superboy could still stomp any street-leveler, with or without his T.K

As for this thread, i keep my original opinion, the team takes it, due to being more skilled, and due to this battle, being 2-on-1.

@bat_girl_cc: Only Tim is more skilled, and neither of them have the strength to even hurt Frank. You haven't yet refuted this.

Nope, i'm pretty sure that Steph is also more skilled than him, she's more and better trainned in M.A than Frank is, and so he's Tim...even tho, neither is a superb fighter.

i can see them, out-maneuvering Frank.

They don't have to hurt him right away...they could target a specific spot on Frank's body, and then, lay hit, after hit, on that spot, which would eventually give in, if anything, for the pain, itself.

Of course not, just my opinion, if i had already proved all of my points, we wouldn't be here, still debating :p

@i_like_swords: I didn't actually read through the thread, I just came back and realized I had changed my mind. Why do you think he wins with no weapons?

Frank gets owned.

@bat_girl_cc: She doesn't have better skill feats than him. He's more skilled than her. Frank isn't going to let them jump about like fairies and hit one spot repeatedly. That's what would happen if the fight went exactly how you want it to go. Realistically, Frank starts breaking bones and knocking them out with his far superior strength, and soaks anything they land with his durability that allowed him to soak straight beatings from Daredevil, Captain America and even US Agent. The duo can'tin their wildest dreams generate that much power even if they were allowed to target one spot.

@jayc1324: See above.

@i_like_swords: NUH UH!

Stephanie was trained by BATMAN! Thus she's more skilled.

trololol

Pretty sure Frank wins with or without weapons.....in fact,he wins easier with them.

@cameron83: Its unavoidable that simply being a member of the batfamily gives you massive amounts of leeway on the battle forums. All you can do is fight the batfactor.

Right??

I love the benefits that many characters get just by association....because some of the fans make the most dumb arguments I've ever seen.

Seriously why would the Punisher play with a bunch of kids for? He would go hard the entire battle

The guy who speedblitz Zadkiel.

Actually stephanie has a sufficient amount of training. I get why people are tired of hearing the "trained by batman argument" partly because the argument is used the wrong way. But don't forget that beyond the over use she still had what it took to enter the batfamily in the first place. That at least means she showed promise in the eyes of Batman for however much that means.

Then there's Tim Drake. As the boy wonder he was able to defeat Lady Shiva in a sparring match with a bo staff. Lady Shiva happens to be one of Dc's most skilled martial artists and she does not lose often. She also trains most of the mercs and assassins Dc has including batman and tim drake.

So my new argument is (Tim Drake) Robin > Shiva (kinda) Red Robin >= Punisher Red Robin+Batgirl > Punisher

@silent_knight: Training means little in comparison to actual feats. Frank's feats are simply better. Again, being in the Batfamily is just something people use as an excuse to elevate Bat-characters to levels which they don't belong.

You're obviously leaving context out of that sparring match, otherwise Tim Drake is DC's best martial artist. But then, that isn't anything new when it comes to Bat-threads.

My argument is he same one that hasn't been refuted properly yet.

@silent_knight:

I've literally never seen any feats from Shiva, I've only seen her getting beaten by others as feats.