Batgirl & Robin vs Punisher

Well I think that Frank can take them both. But what about you?

team 1 frank could beat either 1 on 1 but not together

Team

Team, He could take either alone but not together. No guns puts him at a disadvantage and he's not going to go all out against children.

Team because it's close combat and he has no weapons. If he had weapons the team would be able to survive an encounter with him and escape but would likely not be able to beat him. But I believe they can in this scenario

Team

Could go either way. Franks ability to take punishment is insane but Tim is more skilled

Leaning towards Frank though. Steph adds nothing

Team takes it.

Team - but they might lose a member in the process.

I can see Frank winning

@reaverlation: You see him winning without guns?

@dogsoldier88: This is a weird one.

Frank would own either in one on one, but together is too close to call.

He has put down gang members at their age.

Team wins H2H or with knock out gas.

Team definitely.

Team no doubt, only because it's H2H.

Jmarshmallow

Team takes it . Robin mostly doing all the work lol.

Could someone clarify which robin and which batgirl. But ill vote team either way.

I think Punisher can take on either of them but not both at the same time

I'll just put this out there: I think that the Punisher is waayytoo overrated when it comes to H2H fighting skills. He's better than your average joe but he doesn't come close to having the same vast martial arts knowledge and technical skill as characters like Daredevil, Batman, Black Panther, Snake Eyes, Shang Chi, etc. He's a brawler. People seem to forget this a lot. He seems to know martial arts only when it's relevant to the story. He knows how to fight, but that doesn't make him an incredible fighter. I really have doubts that he'd be able to beat either of them on his own and I certainly don't think he can take them together. At best maybe he'd get 1 or 2 hits in, but I think they would dance around him and beat him handily.

The pictures are Stephanie Brown and Tim Drake

Team

@allstarsuperman: oh so they are. late but thanks.

no problem, I think Frank wins 1 on 1, but the 2 could beat him.

This thread is hilarious. Frank demolishes them.

@cf12793: lol

If this was Spoiler (steph) and Robin (Tim Drake), i might said Punisher...but in the pictures they seem to be already, Batgirl (Steph) and Red Robin (Tim Drake), and if so, the team wins here easy...both characters got alot better since thei're past-selves...spoiler to batgirl...and robin to red robin.

@bat_girl_cc: Please explain to me how you think they win easily.

Well, They both got alot better, i mean, Stephanie was able to perform well against Huntress (Nell), she also stomped a league of shadows assassin, Prudence:

Tim, couldn't belive what he just saw, because he didn't knew that steph was that good already.

But she was. Also, here is another good showing of Steph as batgirl:

Read what is stated in the scan above.

And the same can be said for Tim Drake, even Batman wantted to test his skill level, because he knew Tim wasn't the same...he had progressed...and he considered Tim Drake (Red Robin) as already being good enough, for him to test himself against him in a fight:

So, as you can see, they had both progressed alot, besides, what combat feats does Punisher have?

*Edit*

If you can't see what's stated on the scans, then, just "zoom" the page, i tryed, and i could read it just fine.

@bat_girl_cc:

Stephanie was able to perform well against Huntress (Nell), she also stomped a league of shadows assassin, Prudence:

What makes Huntress formidable? The League of Shadows feat is good but not really beyond Frank's capabilities. (I'll get to those later).

Read what is stated in the scan above.

And the same can be said for Tim Drake

While training is indicative of skill, it isn't the be all and end all. Do they have better training than Frank? Yes. Do they have more, or better, experience and feats than Frank? Doubting it.

even Batman wantted to test his skill level, because he knew Tim wasn't the same...he had progressed...and he considered Tim Drake (Red Robin) as already being good enough, for him to test himself against him in a fight:

Eh, is that guy in the black armor with red visor really Batman? It more looks like Batman is watching a fight between the two seeing as he appears in a previous panel in his usual armor. Maybe I'm wrong, I haven't read the comic. But even then, the guy was beating the breaks off Tim on-panel. One off-hand statement about "testing my own skill level" doesn't necessarily mean that Tim is now formidable enough to pose a real challenge to Batman, that the "test" was carried out, and that Batman actually ever was tested at all. Still not really good enough.

So, as you can see, they had both progressed alot, besides, what combat feats does Punisher have?

• Non-lethally incapacitating what appeared to be two or more squads of SWAT with his bare hands.
• Despite them open firing on him with three machine guns at the same moment Frank was warned not to surrender to them, Frank slaughtered a full squad of SWAT/Military with only a knife, dodging all of their bullets. He then went on to do the same to another squad with just a knife, all of them armed with machine guns. And even though it isn't H2H combat, it is worth noting that he slaughtered the final squad, killing their leader by detonating an explosive in his escape chopper.
• Ragdolling a squad of SHIELD agents in the pitch dark, without night vision.
• Giving Daredevil a prolonged, even fight with no conclusive winner.
• Being depicted as being relatively even or approaching Daredevil in a few sources.
• Holding his own with Daken in CQC.

That only speaks in terms of skill (which he has plenty of). The other factor of this fight is that Batgirl and Robin have no real way of bypassing his durability. Frank is quite literally, a rock. He let Daredevil, someone strong enough to tip a limo, who is also a better fighter than either Robin or Batgirl, beat him to a bloody pulp - and he wasn't even phased. What are these two going to do? I can elucidate much further on his durability if need be. Then there's the fact he's much stronger than them to the point he can simply snap bones (like he's done to Daredevil), which would allow him to win via incapacitation.

It's a blessing, really, that Batgirl and Robin get to play the "we're just kids, go easy on us" card. Because if that wasn't present.. they'd be walking away from this fight with their eyes gouged out, genitals maimed and stab wounds covering them head to toe. Well, that's if Frank had a knife, anyway.

Fixed, unless you're trying to say that Frank is an inanimate stone and not a person.

" What makes Huntress formidable? The League of Shadows feat is good but not really beyond Frank's capabilities. (I'll get to those later). "

Huntress in not formidable, but she's good, and way better than some random SWAT agents, thei're generally, just cannon fooder...only if it serves the plot, they'll actually be doing something.

I never said that Stephanie far outclasses Frank, i said that, the team should win easy here, like in 2-on-1.

" While training is indicative of skill, it isn't the be all and end all. Do they have better training than Frank? Yes. Do they have more, or better, experience and feats than Frank? Doubting it. "

Of course that feats > statements, which doesn't mean, that statements should just be ignored...Both Steph and Tim, were trainned by the best...(Batman, and Cassie)...i think that's what Steph meant, when she said: "i was trainned by the actual most dangerous men and woman in the world"...on Tim's case, in adition to Bruce and Cassie, he was also trainned by Lady Shiva.

Yes, Frank is more experienced than both, so?...it's quality vs quantity...besides, it's not like Batgirl and Red Robin, are just a couple of young fools...Tim is actually (arguably) wiser, and a better detective than Bruce.

Punisher has indeed 1 or 2 feats that are above steph and Tim's league, but i'm undecided as to consider them legit or not.

" Eh, is that guy in the black armor with red visor really Batman? It more looks like Batman is watching a fight between the two seeing as he appears in a previous panel in his usual armor. Maybe I'm wrong, I haven't read the comic. But even then, the guy was beating the breaks off Tim on-panel. One off-hand statement about "testing my own skill level" doesn't necessarily mean that Tim is now formidable enough to pose a real challenge to Batman, that the "test" was carried out, and that Batman actually ever was tested at all. Still not really good enough. "

Yup, he's Batman:

Anyway, Tim wasn't there to win, he was there to give Prudence time to act...still i think that it shows that Bruce acknowledges Tim's evolution, and respects his "new" skill level.

" Non-lethally incapacitating what appeared to be two or more squads of SWAT with his bare hands. "

Very impressive, but it doesn't put Punisher's skill level above Batgirl's and Red Robin's, because like is said before, SWAT squads in comics are the same as stree-mooks...A.K.A - cannon-fodder.

" Despite them open firing on him with three machine guns at the same moment Frank was warned not to surrender to them, Frank slaughtered a full squad of SWAT/Military with only a knife, dodging all of their bullets. He then went on to do the same to another squad with just a knife, all of them armed with machine guns. And even though it isn't H2H combat, it is worth noting that he slaughtered the final squad, killing their leader by detonating an explosive in his escape chopper. "

Hum...can Frank REALLY dodge bullets, or just perform aim-dodging?...because they are 2 very different things...if he can really dodge them, than i would say he wins here, because of his combat speed, neither Steph or Tim can REALLY dodge bullets, they can only dodge their aim.

Frank doesn't have weapons here.

" Ragdolling a squad of SHIELD agents in the pitch dark, without night vision. "

Again, it's impressive, but it's nothing that would put him above his 2 opponents here.

" Giving Daredevil a prolonged, even fight with no conclusive winner.

Being depicted as being relatively even or approaching Daredevil in a few sources.

Holding his own with Daken in CQC. "

Ok, i'm not a Daredevil expert, but i'm gonna say this right away...that's some serious PIS there.

" That only speaks in terms of skill (which he has plenty of). The other factor of this fight is that Batgirl and Robin have no real way of bypassing his durability. Frank is quite literally, a rock. He let Daredevil, someone strong enough to tip a limo, who is also a better fighter than either Robin or Batgirl, beat him to a bloody pulp - and he wasn't even phased. What are these two going to do? I can elucidate much further on his durability if need be. Then there's the fact he's much stronger than them to the point he can simply snap bones (like he's done to Daredevil), which would allow him to win via incapacitation.

It's a blessing, really, that Batgirl and Robin get to play the "we're just kids, go easy on us" card. Because if that wasn't present.. they'd be walking away from this fight with their eyes gouged out, genitals maimed and stab wounds covering them head to toe. Well, that's if Frank had a knife, anyway. "

Hum...interesting, can you provide some scans of Punisher's durabillity?

@bat_girl_cc:

Huntress in not formidable, but she's good, and way better than some random SWAT agents, thei're generally, just cannon fooder...only if it serves the plot, they'll actually be doing something.

I never said that Stephanie far outclasses Frank, i said that, the team should win easy here, like in 2-on-1.

Calling them cannon fodder doesn't make the feat any less than it is. If Huntress is "good" I don't see what kind of mark this feat is against Frank. Several squads of SWAT and paramilitary soldiers could be described as "good".

Well you still have some proving to do, don't you?

Of course that feats > statements, which doesn't mean, that statements should just be ignored...Both Steph and Tim, were trainned by the best...(Batman, and Cassie)...i think that's what Steph meant, when she said: "i was trainned by the actual most dangerous men and woman in the world"...on Tim's case, in adition to Bruce and Cassie, he was also trainned by Lady Shiva.

Yes, Frank is more experienced than both, so?...it's quality vs quantity...besides, it's not like Batgirl and Red Robin, are just a couple of young fools...Tim is actually (arguably) wiser, and a better detective than Bruce.

Punisher has indeed 1 or 2 feats that are above steph and Tim's league, but i'm undecided as to consider them legit or not.

I'm not ignoring them, which is why I considered them in my post.

And quality is just what Frank has.

Well, I consider them legit because there isn't really anything to contradict them recently that I'm aware of.

Anyway, Tim wasn't there to win, he was there to give Prudence time to act...still i think that it shows that Bruce acknowledges Tim's evolution, and respects his "new" skill level.

Fair enough.

Very impressive, but it doesn't put Punisher's skill level above Batgirl's and Red Robin's, because like is said before, SWAT squads in comics are the same as stree-mooks...A.K.A - cannon-fodder.

Calling them fodder doesn't make them any less than they are. It's a feat to consider. And frankly, trashing special forces with your bare hands is very impressive.

Hum...can Frank REALLY dodge bullets, or just perform aim-dodging?...because they are 2 very different things...if he can really dodge them, than i would say he wins here, because of his combat speed, neither Steph or Tim can REALLY dodge bullets, they can only dodge their aim.

Frank doesn't have weapons here.

Well, I can't give any other explanation for how he wasn't shot here:

Again, it's impressive, but it's nothing that would put him above his 2 opponents here.

Okay.

Ok, i'm not a Daredevil expert, but i'm gonna say this right away...that's some serious PIS there.

PIS is when something that shouldn't normally happens, happens, for the sake of the plot i.e Darth Maul not killing Obi-Wan Kenobi in The Phantom Menace due to "overconfidence", despite the fact he's one of the most disciplined Sith in history. There was no critical plot point in either of the instances I'm citing that allowed Frank to do well against Matt - he just did, because that's how he was portrayed. In fact, one of them was just a flashback that had little to do with the story at hand.

Hum...interesting, can you provide some scans of Punisher's durabillity?

Certainly, gonna get something to eat then I'll scan some pages.

Naw, he's a rock. Made of very rocky materials.

I've never understood how punisher could kill the entire marvel universe, I mean I never actually read that comic to find out, so I'm pretty sure however he did it would blow my mind (maybe literally). In my opinion he could beat that particular robin 1 on 1, just because I don't see the purpose of Tim Drake (sometimes 3 is not the lucky number), but THAT particular batgirl would woop punisher so 2 on 1 and no guns puts him at a mean disadvatage.

Team 1.

It was a non-canon What If comic. Same as Deadpool kills the Marvel Universe. If he had actually killed the Marvel universe, we wouldn't have many comics to read,

Unless I'm missing something, Punisher is the one doing the whooping. She isn't any more skilled than him, isn't hurting him with physical strikes any time soon, and he can simply ragdoll her or snap bones with his far superior strength.

Why?

@bat_girl_cc:

Hum...interesting, can you provide some scans of Punisher's durabillity?

Certainly, gonna get something to eat then I'll scan some pages.

As promised. First, here's part of Frank's usual training regiment.

Yes - he dives head-first onto concrete as a training exercise. Now he feels zero impact when his head is smashed off concrete.

And here, he lets Daredevil give him two of his best and most acrobatic kicks, as well as slam his head off the concrete ground - doesn't phase him one bit.

Gallery

There's more, but it'd take quite a long time for me to scan/search for, so I hope this is enough to get my point across for now. Frank won't feel a single strike from either of these two. Not for a long portion of the fight anyway. And by then, the Bat-kids will have already been sent packing.

Does the team get a Pickaxe?

@i_like_swords: I know it's canon but that still does explain what power he could possibly possess that would allow him to pull that off. I'd go more into that but it seems like a different topic. As far as this Batgirl goes, if I'm not mistaken she's alternate world daughter of Batman and Huntress Batgirl, so she has a bit of an edge to her (not punisher edge by far but an edge nonetheless). I also don't know that much about punisher's skillset but I'm sure most of it involves more firearms and less hand to hand. I'm just saying this batgirl may have more hand to hand skills than he does, non-gun gadgets, and she could definitely match his intensity. Then there's the matter of red robin tagging along. . .

I was wrong thats stephanie brown xP

Oh well still 2 on 1. . . I'd say they're both just faster and more skilled than Punisher and go with that

@silent_knight: He doesn't possess a power that would allow him to do it - hence why it was an alternate universe comic. It wouldn't ever happen.

Being Batman's daughter or trainee is nice on-paper, but you couldn't take that alone and translate it to a fight. It doesn't really mean anything where actual accomplishments are concerned.

Frank is an expert in hand-to-hand combat, knife combat and firearms. Firearms take precedence most of the time, because that's the most efficient way to carry out his war on crime. However, that doesn't mean he's any less capable in unarmed combat.

"More" hand-to-hand feats doesn't necessarily mean better. I haven't seen anything from her yet to suggest she's a more effective fighter than Frank. Same goes for Robin. Just read what I've posted in this thread. Frank's given more skilled and physically formidable opponents solid fights in CQC before, so Batgirl and Robin really should be lower on totem pole for him. They can't phase him with physical strikes, he's stronger than them to the point he could start snapping bones, and his overall ferociousness, skill and efficiency should carry him through.

Based on what, exactly?

@allstarsuperman said:

Explain.

@i_like_swords: They flip around Frank, it being two on one and all, distracting him and engaging him at the same time He's going to take some punishment from them and give them a couple good blows, but not enough to put either down. Once that happens, they will realize he is a threat and likely resort to their gadgets to take him down, ie knock out gas.

If Punisher had guns, it would be different.

Or, alternatively, Frank uses his reaction time which has been sufficient to contend evenly with Daredevil, knock Caps thrown shield to the ground, shoot Daredevil's baton out of the air, dodge automatic machine gun fire and react to Spider-Man in CQC, to put one of them in an armbar, snapping their arm, while the other punches and kicks him to no avail, due to the fact he may as well be a wall of adamantium to them. At which point he does the same to the other, and they realize they are seriously outmatched physically and decide to run away.

They won't have time for knockout gas. They'll be knocked out cold by then. But really if we want to play the gadgets game, let me go look through my comics to find the pages about Frank's various tasers, flashbang/stun hybrid grenades ect that will leave them lying in a pile of their own drool.

@i_like_swords: Once he gets one of them in an armbar, I could see the gas coming out then. Tim is arguably smarter than any other Bat member and Batgirl is no slouche either. The second he starts to overwhelm one of them, which is likely going to happen eventually, they'll gas him or hit him with another gadget that can take him down.

I admire your love for Punisher though. It's nice to debate with someone who isn't blinded by their own fandom. Like I've said to you before, I don't know much about Punisher through what I've read in a couple scans. But I read most of the Gotham stories, which is why I believe they can take him, only because he doesn't have his guns and it is 2 on 1.

@i_like_swords: Both Robin and Batgirl were trained by either Batman and/or Nightwing in various forms of combat and acrobatics. Literally, h2h is they're trademark and they're not just sidekicks anymore. On top of that, I don't see Frank being able to keep up with them. Take a look at his track record against Daredevil. As far as h2h goes Punisher <<< Daredevil.

I'm starting to think gun or no he still wouldn't be able to match. ..