Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) vs X-23

"Omg, okay, I have GOT to see this fight. A scenario I'm thinking of is, the two standing face to face 20 ft. apart and they're ready to do what it takes to KO the other, I don't think the dreaded plot device cape would save Tim from something like that."

"LegendaryKYJ said:

"Okay, I'll bite.... Why, good sir? I also want to add, when you pick one sentence of someones rebuttal and give one word answers that contradict said sentence, it comes across as bickering. Are you bickering?"

lol is that how it comes across? I'm simply pointing out your inaccurate statement.

"LegendaryKYJ said:

" the only instance of someone much much slower ever being able to touch her.

This is incorrect (sir :D) She's been touched by Green Arrow, knocked out by Nightwing, beat down by some scrub in her solo series, Blasted by Mr. Freeze's gun, and those are just off the top of my head.
"

Cassandra. Laura still has normal bones that Cassie can easily break and Cassie is by FAR a better fighter and faster

"Cassandra. Laura still has normal bones that Cassie can easily break and Cassie is by FAR a better fighter and faster "

" Cassandra. Laura still has normal bones that Cassie can easily break and Cassie is by FAR a better fighter and faster "

" @Son_of_Magnus said:

" Cassandra. Laura still has normal bones that Cassie can easily break and Cassie is by FAR a better fighter and faster "

Cassandra is just as fast, not faster. They are both peak human. "

" @erik said:

" @Son_of_Magnus said:

" Cassandra. Laura still has normal bones that Cassie can easily break and Cassie is by FAR a better fighter and faster "

Cassandra is just as fast, not faster. They are both peak human. "

I have seen better feats for Cassie. "

" @Lunacyde said:

" @erik said:

" @Son_of_Magnus said:

" Cassandra. Laura still has normal bones that Cassie can easily break and Cassie is by FAR a better fighter and faster "

Cassandra is just as fast, not faster. They are both peak human. "

I have seen better feats for Cassie. "

That is different. The issue where they were trying to classify Cassandra firmly rooted her in peak human while she was performing seemingly meta feats. It was not that she was faster than a normal person, her combined abilities and training just made it seem like she was.  "

" @Gambler: Are you saying she has actually outran a bullet? Or are you just saying she dodged one? Different things entirely. She is not meta.  "

" @Gambler:  Her abilities are within human range no matter what she does.  "

Funny how different peak humans can do different things.
 
How can Batman and Cassie both be peak human and yet she has pulled off speed/reflex feats he has never shown?

" @erik said:

" @Gambler:  Her abilities are within human range no matter what she does.  "

That statement doesn't even make sense. "

" @Gambler said:

" @erik said:

" @Gambler:  Her abilities are within human range no matter what she does.  "

That statement doesn't even make sense. "

You must be having trouble reading today then Gambler. :D "

" Funny how different peak humans can do different things.  How can Batman and Cassie both be peak human and yet she has pulled off speed/reflex feats he has never shown? "

" @erik said:

" @Gambler said:

" @erik said:

" @Gambler:  Her abilities are within human range no matter what she does.  "

That statement doesn't even make sense. "

You must be having trouble reading today then Gambler. :D "

How is moving faster then a bullet within human range? How is Cassandra performing feats that normal humans (within the DCU) cannot, still within human range? "

" @Lunacyde said:

" Funny how different peak humans can do different things.  How can Batman and Cassie both be peak human and yet she has pulled off speed/reflex feats he has never shown? "

"

Cassandra has ran in front of people they did not see her only felt her gust of wind

" Cassandra has ran in front of people they did not see her only felt her gust of wind "

" It did not write the garbage so you should not ask me. I am saying that they classify her as peak human. Therefore all feats she performs are peak human. Besides, normal human and peak human are very different things. I also find it funny that you are the one that posted those scans and now you are saying that they are not valid when used to point out her very human speed.  "

" @Son_of_Magnus said:

" Cassandra has ran in front of people they did not see her only felt her gust of wind "

So has Wolverine and X-23 is faster than him.  "

" @erik said:

" It did not write the garbage so you should not ask me. I am saying that they classify her as peak human. Therefore all feats she performs are peak human. Besides, normal human and peak human are very different things. I also find it funny that you are the one that posted those scans and now you are saying that they are not valid when used to point out her very human speed.  "

I'm not saying they are not valid, I'm pointing out that not only were they confused to begin with and seemingly contradict themselves in the same scan, but their information came from one fight. They didn't see her dodge/react to bullets they way they do and if they had, they may of come up with yet another explanation. It doesnt matter if she's slated as Peak Human. The truth is she routinely performs feats above Peak Human levels. "

" @erik said:

" @Son_of_Magnus said:

" Cassandra has ran in front of people they did not see her only felt her gust of wind "

So has Wolverine and X-23 is faster than him.  "

And dont they both have "superhuman speed?" Its kind of what we are saying about her performing feats above Peak Human. You yourself just compared one of her feats to the feats of two superhumans..... "

" @Gambler said:

" @erik said:

" It did not write the garbage so you should not ask me. I am saying that they classify her as peak human. Therefore all feats she performs are peak human. Besides, normal human and peak human are very different things. I also find it funny that you are the one that posted those scans and now you are saying that they are not valid when used to point out her very human speed.  "

I'm not saying they are not valid, I'm pointing out that not only were they confused to begin with and seemingly contradict themselves in the same scan, but their information came from one fight. They didn't see her dodge/react to bullets they way they do and if they had, they may of come up with yet another explanation. It doesnt matter if she's slated as Peak Human. The truth is she routinely performs feats above Peak Human levels. "

So you are saying that when they say her speed is strictly borderline human, that is false but her moving at 1400 feet per second (3.77 seconds per mile) is completely valid and not PIS? "

" @erik said:

" @Gambler said:

" @erik said:

" It did not write the garbage so you should not ask me. I am saying that they classify her as peak human. Therefore all feats she performs are peak human. Besides, normal human and peak human are very different things. I also find it funny that you are the one that posted those scans and now you are saying that they are not valid when used to point out her very human speed.  "

I'm not saying they are not valid, I'm pointing out that not only were they confused to begin with and seemingly contradict themselves in the same scan, but their information came from one fight. They didn't see her dodge/react to bullets they way they do and if they had, they may of come up with yet another explanation. It doesnt matter if she's slated as Peak Human. The truth is she routinely performs feats above Peak Human levels. "

So you are saying that when they say her speed is strictly borderline human, that is false but her moving at 1400 feet per second (3.77 seconds per mile) is completely valid and not PIS? "

Nope, not what I'm saying at all. "

" @Gambler said:

" @erik said:

" @Gambler said:

" @erik said:

" It did not write the garbage so you should not ask me. I am saying that they classify her as peak human. Therefore all feats she performs are peak human. Besides, normal human and peak human are very different things. I also find it funny that you are the one that posted those scans and now you are saying that they are not valid when used to point out her very human speed.  "

I'm not saying they are not valid, I'm pointing out that not only were they confused to begin with and seemingly contradict themselves in the same scan, but their information came from one fight. They didn't see her dodge/react to bullets they way they do and if they had, they may of come up with yet another explanation. It doesnt matter if she's slated as Peak Human. The truth is she routinely performs feats above Peak Human levels. "

So you are saying that when they say her speed is strictly borderline human, that is false but her moving at 1400 feet per second (3.77 seconds per mile) is completely valid and not PIS? "

Nope, not what I'm saying at all. "

Good so I will throw that bullet feat right out the window. "

" @Gambler said:

" @erik said:

" @Son_of_Magnus said:

" Cassandra has ran in front of people they did not see her only felt her gust of wind "

So has Wolverine and X-23 is faster than him.  "

And dont they both have "superhuman speed?" Its kind of what we are saying about her performing feats above Peak Human. You yourself just compared one of her feats to the feats of two superhumans..... "

I think that Wolverine and X-23's speed is debatable for superhuman.  "

" @erik said:

" @Gambler said:

" @erik said:

" @Gambler said:

" @erik said:

" It did not write the garbage so you should not ask me. I am saying that they classify her as peak human. Therefore all feats she performs are peak human. Besides, normal human and peak human are very different things. I also find it funny that you are the one that posted those scans and now you are saying that they are not valid when used to point out her very human speed.  "

I'm not saying they are not valid, I'm pointing out that not only were they confused to begin with and seemingly contradict themselves in the same scan, but their information came from one fight. They didn't see her dodge/react to bullets they way they do and if they had, they may of come up with yet another explanation. It doesnt matter if she's slated as Peak Human. The truth is she routinely performs feats above Peak Human levels. "

So you are saying that when they say her speed is strictly borderline human, that is false but her moving at 1400 feet per second (3.77 seconds per mile) is completely valid and not PIS? "

Nope, not what I'm saying at all. "

Good so I will throw that bullet feat right out the window. "

And what about all her other feats that put her above Borderline Human? You wanna throw those out as well, in exchange for one scan? isn't that what this debate started out as? Some users saying that although she's slated as Borderline Human that she has several feats that put her above that? "

" @erik said:

" @Gambler said:

" @erik said:

" @Son_of_Magnus said:

" Cassandra has ran in front of people they did not see her only felt her gust of wind "

So has Wolverine and X-23 is faster than him.  "

And dont they both have "superhuman speed?" Its kind of what we are saying about her performing feats above Peak Human. You yourself just compared one of her feats to the feats of two superhumans..... "

I think that Wolverine and X-23's speed is debatable for superhuman.  "

For however reliable the Encyclopedia is, X-23 has superhuman speed. "

"No. I just do not want you to use a scan for your own purposes and then shoot it down when someone uses your own scan to point out other valid points. They said in those scans that her physical speed in that "one fight" seemed impossibly fast for a human. One of the other men in it stated that the speed she performs is not physically impossible for humans, but it should be mentally. There it is. According to that scan which you used initially, everything she can do is physically possible for humans in the DCU. It is bad form to try and use a scan to prove one point and then monkey rage when someone else uses the same scan to prove another point. You should not try to discredit that which you already used as valid scans.  "

 @erik said:

" I did not know that. Scan? "

Im on the fence with this one. 
 
Even though Cassie is more skilled out of the two fighters, Im not sure she outclasses X-23 enough to completely avoid being tagged. Realistically, that's all X-23 needs is one clean swipe and the fight is over. 
 
If Batgirl had some bladed weapon then she would win forsure.

 great argument. -_-
 
do you mean she will rarely touch her or barely touch her either way all she needs is to hit her a few times to slow her down and kill her so it doesnt matter if she barely hits her.. batgirl wont see blades coming out from between her toes and have a slit throat. batgirls last thought would be i dodged her foot, how?!

" but nowhere near certain peak and enhanced or superhuman MU street lvlers "

" @castleking said:

" but nowhere near certain peak and enhanced or superhuman MU street lvlers "

Which Peak and or Enhanced Marvel characters is she nowhere near? I'm just curious. "

"  great argument. -_-
 
do you mean she will rarely touch her or barely touch her either way all she needs is to hit her a few times to slow her down and kill her so it doesnt matter if she barely hits her.. batgirl wont see blades coming out from between her toes and have a slit throat. batgirls last thought would be i dodged her foot, how?! "

 but she is also cocky letting certain attacks barely glance  her  b/c she is that good or just barely that fast to merely avoid it by mere inches if not centimeters ....

" @Gambler said:

" @castleking said:

" but nowhere near certain peak and enhanced or superhuman MU street lvlers "

Which Peak and or Enhanced Marvel characters is she nowhere near? I'm just curious. "

Captain America... near or =    begrudgingly i'll admit it  >( "

"  but she is also cocky letting certain attacks barely glance  her  b/c she is that good or just barely that fast to merely avoid it by mere inches if not centimeters .... "

"  but she is also cocky letting certain attacks barely glance  her  b/c she is that good or just barely that fast to merely avoid it by mere inches if not centimeters .... "