"Bane made his own style up supposedly, BT knows almost every style. That means one of them is coming to the fight full of BS and it aint Bronze Tiger. "
lol @ "supposedly." He's trained in various forms since childhood, so I'm not sure where your alleged information came from.
"@velle37: no he wont with venom he would snap his neck,and even without venom he is still physically superior. "
BT is much faster, and much, much more skilled than Bane. With Venom he'd still lose.
Bane couldn't even beat Batman (who is less skilled than BT) in a straight fight. He had to wear Bruce down for a week with a guantlet then amp himself with Venom to defeat Bruce.
Bane knows he can't beat Bats straight up, which is why he strategizes and attacks indirectly. If on venom he can't beat Bruce, then he wouldn't beat BT either.
"@velle37: no he wont with venom he would snap his neck,and even without venom he is still physically superior. "
BT is much faster, and much, much more skilled than Bane. With Venom he'd still lose. Bane couldn't even beat Batman (who is less skilled than BT) in a straight fight. He had to wear Bruce down for a week with a guantlet then amp himself with Venom to defeat Bruce. Bane knows he can't beat Bats straight up, which is why he strategizes and attacks indirectly. If on venom he can't beat Bruce, then he wouldn't beat BT either. "
I'm not sure why people always turn to the Knightfall example. Bruce and Bane have had numerous direct 1v1s since then, all being close matches.
@velle37: since when was BT more skilled than batman?maybe 30 years ago in the silverage,but bruces equipment ,armour,physical levels are all much better now .and bronze tiger didnt beat him anyway,his stooges in the league had to save his a$$ when he was on the losing end.bane has also dodged point blank batarangs from bruce,and last i saw bronze tiger(excluding the catman incident) he was struggling against a robot,bane smashed robots in secret six effortlessly and we dont go by the he lost to batman argument,if you want to go by that logic then benjie couldnt even beat an under trained lady shiva even though he had an army of ninjas,merlyn(green arrow level archer) and david cain for backup.in fact cain was the one who took her down. AND BANE RODE A T-REX HOW BADA$$ IS THAT.
What has he done with his fighting knowledge until Secret Six? Got his assed kicked and jobbed non stop. Couldn't even match Bruce straight up 90% of the time without tiring him out first or using venom.
"@k4tzm4n: What has he done with his fighting knowledge until Secret Six? Got his assed kicked and jobbed non stop. Couldn't even match Bruce straight up 90% of the time without tiring him out first or using venom. "
You're throwing forward such a strong opinion, but it's more than clear you simply haven't read enough of Bane's previous material, aside from Knightfall. I've informed you Bane has given Bruce a good match WITHOUT venom at least twice, so I'm not sure why you would ignore that in your reply post. Perhaps you should scan through my gallery. I have assorted Bane scans SOMEWHERE in there displaying his abilities.
@AMS: Thankyou for telling me that you know nothing about bane. and who did he job to ?cheetah yeah because bronze tiger could have taken her( rolls eyes) .if you use cheetah i can just as easily use the new god lashina whom bronze tiger couldnt even faze with his hits. and bane has done nothing feat wise in secret six so no as i recall except for knightfall bane has never worn him down he fought in legacy,no mans land and "bane" one shot ,he lost the first one barely,the second was a flat stalemate,third he would most likely lost had the fight not been interupted.which is better than BT whose only victory over bruce comes from cheapshotting him when he wasnt looking.
@entropy_aegis: Always nice to see another person knowledgeable on Bane. People tend to vastly overestimate or underestimate him. It's rare to find people who have a good understanding.
"@velle37: since when was BT more skilled than batman?maybe 30 years ago in the silverage,but bruces equipment ,armour,physical levels are all much better now .and bronze tiger didnt beat him anyway,his stooges in the league had to save his a$$ when he was on the losing end.bane has also dodged point blank batarangs from bruce,and last i saw bronze tiger(excluding the catman incident) he was struggling against a robot,bane smashed robots in secret six effortlessly and we dont go by the he lost to batman argument,if you want to go by that logic then benjie couldnt even beat an under trained lady shiva even though he had an army of ninjas,merlyn(green arrow level archer) and david cain for backup.in fact cain was the one who took her down. AND BANE RODE A T-REX HOW BADA$$ IS THAT. "
BT has beaten Shiva before. BT is still reputed to be more skilled than Shiva and Batman. Bruce has been beaten even with all of his armor and gadgets, even by far less skilled opponents (though this usually shouldn't be).
Bane riding a T-rex is not applicable in any logical way to this battle. @k4tzm4n said:
"@velle37 said:
"@entropy_aegis said:
"@velle37: no he wont with venom he would snap his neck,and even without venom he is still physically superior. "
BT is much faster, and much, much more skilled than Bane. With Venom he'd still lose. Bane couldn't even beat Batman (who is less skilled than BT) in a straight fight. He had to wear Bruce down for a week with a guantlet then amp himself with Venom to defeat Bruce. Bane knows he can't beat Bats straight up, which is why he strategizes and attacks indirectly. If on venom he can't beat Bruce, then he wouldn't beat BT either. "
I'm not sure why people always turn to the Knightfall example. Bruce and Bane have had numerous direct 1v1s since then, all being close matches. "
I've seen a few encounters between them outside of Knightfall, but none ever seemed like Bane had the upper hand. He has always come off to me a below Bats. He is less skilled, less smart, slower, but much stronger.
BT has beaten Shiva before. BT is still reputed to be more skilled than Shiva and Batman. Bruce has been beaten even with all of his armor and gadgets, even by far less skilled opponents (though this usually shouldn't be).
Bane riding a T-rex is not applicable in any logical way to this battle. @k4tzm4n said:
"@velle37 said:
I've seen a few encounters between them outside of Knightfall, but none ever seemed like Bane had the upper hand. He has always come off to me a below Bats. He is less skilled, less smart, slower, but much stronger. I don't see him beating Bane. "
when did he beat shiva?who reputed him to be more skilled than either,and using less skilled opponents isnt going to get us anywhere as i recall BT was schooled by catman. never claimed that bane could beat bruce but he has multiple showings which show us his level compared to bruce,bronze tiger on the otherhand only has a 30 yearold silverage fight to his name which he didnt even win.
BT has beaten Shiva before. BT is still reputed to be more skilled than Shiva and Batman. Bruce has been beaten even with all of his armor and gadgets, even by far less skilled opponents (though this usually shouldn't be).
Bane riding a T-rex is not applicable in any logical way to this battle. @k4tzm4n said:
"@velle37 said:
I've seen a few encounters between them outside of Knightfall, but none ever seemed like Bane had the upper hand. He has always come off to me a below Bats. He is less skilled, less smart, slower, but much stronger. I don't see him beating Bane. "
when did he beat shiva?who reputed him to be more skilled than either,and using less skilled opponents isnt going to get us anywhere as i recall BT was schooled by catman. never claimed that bane could beat bruce but he has multiple showings which show us his level compared to bruce,bronze tiger on the otherhand only has a 30 yearold silverage fight to his name which he didnt even win. "
I sax a scan where he chopped her in the neck.
Someone said Shiva was the best in the world. Promethius replied that she was 3rd best actually, then dropped Shiva in 3 seconds, then asked the remaining birds of prey would they rather be killed by Bronze tiger or Richard dragon. Batman wasn't even in his top 3.
Catman VS BT was pure stupidity.... Catman wankery is annying, and the reasoning was stupid as well.... Because Catman supposedly didn't use a "style" (because BT has a response for every single style) BT didn't counter... That makes no sense.....
I was pointing out that Batman's "armor" doesn't translate into comics as any advantage as he has been ko'd by twoface with a chair... Though i agree with you that it should, since he is wearing armor.... but eh.....
"I've seen a few encounters between them outside of Knightfall, but none ever seemed like Bane had the upper hand. He has always come off to me a below Bats. He is less skilled, less smart, slower, but much stronger." His speed isn't an issue, and this is proven in the issue with Hourglass, as well as one of his fights with Bruce, when he effortlessly dodges a few batarangs. As I've said numerous tmes on this thread, Bane is not AS skilled as Wayne, but he's close, and his phsical attirbutes allow him to compensate, thus making the majority of their matches quite close.
@velle37: i know for a fact that shiva almost took his head off once. that wasnt prometheus it was loser named chad who got his a$$ kicked by hush,deathstroke and a few cobra guys and he could have easily been referring to himself as the best.
"@velle37: i know for a fact that shiva almost took his head off once. that wasnt prometheus it was loser named chad who got his a$$ kicked by hush,deathstroke and a few cobra guys and he could have easily been referring to himself as the best. "
They may go back and forht, they're two of the best fighters on the planet.
It was a dude who downloaded the martial skill of the top 30 fighters in the world. Dragon and Tiger on top, Shiva and the rest on bottom. There have been at least three people to take the name/suit/technology of Prometheus. One of them took on the entire Justice League. That Promethius was the same one who fought in Birds of Prey.
@k4tzm4n
said:
"
"I've seen a few encounters between them outside of Knightfall, but none ever seemed like Bane had the upper hand. He has always come off to me a below Bats. He is less skilled, less smart, slower, but much stronger." His speed isn't an issue, and this is proven in the issue with Hourglass, as well as one of his fights with Bruce, when he effortlessly dodges a few batarangs. As I've said numerous tmes on this thread, Bane is not AS skilled as Wayne, but he's close, and his phsical attirbutes allow him to compensate, thus making the majority of their matches quite close.
"
I do think his physical attributes allow him to compensate, but i don't think Bane is even half as skilled as Bruce.
I would like to see this scan and the context surrounding it.
Someone said Shiva was the best in the world. Promethius replied that she was 3rd best actually, then dropped Shiva in 3 seconds, then asked the remaining birds of prey would they rather be killed by Bronze tiger or Richard dragon. Batman wasn't even in his top 3.
I never remembered Prometheus saying anything about Bronze Tiger, but his opinion is not indisputable fact. Gail Simone has no absolutely respect for or knowledge about Lady Shiva anyway; so why in the world you would even consider representing her appearances in Simone's work, I have no idea. Not to mention, in that same comic, Huntress landed hard blows on Prometheus. So, again, not a very credible comic to be mentioning showings from.
I was pointing out that Batman's "armor" doesn't translate into comics as any advantage as he has been ko'd by twoface with a chair... Though i agree with you that it should, since he is wearing armor.... but eh..... "
One, BatMan's armor has proven effective more times than ineffective. Two, writers do and always will ignore his armor when a hand to hand fight occurs, because otherwise, he could simply withstand any and every melee strike thrown. It would nullify the need for blocking and parrying, which ruins the fight. Three, the resiliency of the armor at the time when Tiger and BatMan's fight took place is questionable. Four, Tiger being superior to BatMan in combat skill is definitely debatable. He caught him off-guard and cheap-shotted him in their first fight. In their second, they stalemated until a dart was fired that knocked out Bats. Since these two fights however, BatMan has traveled the world twice reaffirming and increasing his fighting skill. His combat prowess has been augmented since then.
@velle37: No that prometheus who took on the birds of prey was chad graham.the real one was in a telepathic lockdown or something like that after the mageddon incident, when martain manhunter was killed by libra in final crisis that link was broken and prometheus returned in cry for justice.
@velle3: "I do think his physical attributes allow him to compensate, but i don't think Bane is even half as skilled as Bruce." His showings certainly prove otherwise.
I essentialy agree with what your saying, I like Bane and how he is getting restored past standard jobber fodder in S6 but yeah as we've already both concluded no dice ultimately in a fight with BT.
I would like to see this scan and the context surrounding it.
Someone said Shiva was the best in the world. Promethius replied that she was 3rd best actually, then dropped Shiva in 3 seconds, then asked the remaining birds of prey would they rather be killed by Bronze tiger or Richard dragon. Batman wasn't even in his top 3.
I never remembered Prometheus saying anything about Bronze Tiger, but his opinion is not indisputable fact. Gail Simone has no absolutely respect for or knowledge about Lady Shiva anyway; so why in the world you would even consider representing her appearances in Simone's work, I have no idea. Not to mention, in that same comic, Huntress landed hard blows on Prometheus. So, again, not a very credible comic to be mentioning showings from.
I was pointing out that Batman's "armor" doesn't translate into comics as any advantage as he has been ko'd by twoface with a chair... Though i agree with you that it should, since he is wearing armor.... but eh..... "
One, BatMan's armor has proven effective more times than ineffective. Two, writers do and always will ignore his armor when a hand to hand fight occurs, because otherwise, he could simply withstand any and every melee strike thrown. It would nullify the need for blocking and parrying, which ruins the fight. Three, the resiliency of the armor at the time when Tiger and BatMan's fight took place is questionable. Four, Tiger being superior to BatMan in combat skill is definitely questionable. He caught him off-guard and cheap-shotted him in their first fight. In their second, they stalemated until a dart was fired that knocked out Bats. Since these two fights however, BatMan has traveled the world twice reaffirming and increasing his fighting skill. His combat prowess has been augmented since then. "
I'll have to find it. Don't remember the context, but you ask a fair question.
He named the two fighter above Shiva as Tiger and Dragon. The only two who consistently hold the position as the best fighters on the planet are Tiger and Dragon. You're right about Simone, but this logic should be applied to every thread. If a feat happens in a comic, that someone thinks is WIS/PIS, it should be discounted, but where does the subjectivity end? It happened in the comics........ I do agree with you though. Especially that Huntress would be able to even touch him.
I'm sure there are many instances of Batman's armors durability, but there are also multiple inconsistnet showings as well. People should just use logic (as you have) to discern which feats to credit, and which ones to not. Tiger one shotted Bats, then Bats went away contemplating it like... How is it even possible that he did that to me? It was obviously a characterization scene, to establish BT as a credible fighter (a very common tactic in comics.... You want a character built up? Have them beat/have a good showing against an already established epitomized character... *cough* Huntress VS Shiva *cough* ). both fighters have augmented in skill. BT hasn't just been sitting around, else Promethius would have no reason to rank him above Shiva. Shiva said she learns 12 new disciplines each year. Bruce is typically obseesssed with Gotham, but trains in the cave, and took a year off to train with his children. They all train. But DC's hierarchy still has BT above Batman.
"@k4tzm4n: I essentialy agree with what your saying, I like Bane and how he is getting restored past standard jobber fodder in S6 but yeah as we've already both concluded no dice ultimately in a fight with BT. "
When was Bane ever treated as a jobber? I've honestly only seen one or two showings where he was downplayed or stomped.
" @k4tzm4n: Do you think Bane is stronger than BatMan without Venom? Because I always questioned that. "
Yes (but not by a significant difference), despite Bruce being "peak." That makes me question what Bane is classified as without his venom. A big issue I have regarding Bane is how artists handle him when he's off venom. We've seen him just being slightly taller and having more muscle mass than Bruce, to completely towering over him and having huge muscles.
"@k4tzm4n: I essentialy agree with what your saying, I like Bane and how he is getting restored past standard jobber fodder in S6 but yeah as we've already both concluded no dice ultimately in a fight with BT. "
When was Bane ever treated as a jobber? I've honestly only seen one or two showings where he was downplayed or stomped. "
@entropy_aegis: Exactly. Being destroyed by someone who outclasses you isn't jobbing. It's instead being downplayed when the character should be able to win. It's sort of like saying Deadshot jobbed in the Secret Six because he got rocked by Wonder Woman. No, he just got curbstomped because he attempted to take part in a battle which he had no place in (Class-wise, lol).
"@k4tzm4n: I essentialy agree with what your saying, I like Bane and how he is getting restored past standard jobber fodder in S6 but yeah as we've already both concluded no dice ultimately in a fight with BT. "
When was Bane ever treated as a jobber? I've honestly only seen one or two showings where he was downplayed or stomped. "
The way Bane came off early in his careeer was as a jobber. Which is why in some cartoon versions of him, he has that connotation. There are a few instances where he is included in just a group of villians as cannon fodder to be defeated, but those are few. This is probably part of the reason for the characterization scene with Ra's al Ghul, where Ra's is continuously complimenting bane's mind and analytical ability, to get away from this brute impression.
I have seen instances in comics aside form those of Bane's strategies. But it's still usually indirect. Like when he had Zsasz attack Matches Malone in jail while he was sleeping. @Silver2467 said:
" @k4tzm4n: Do you think Bane is stronger than BatMan without Venom? Because I always questioned that. "
Bane is stated to be one of the strongest non-metas without venom, but so is Bruce. I'd give it to Bane, but not by much. Bruce does have better strength showings off venom than Bane though. @k4tzm4n said:
"@velle3:"I do think his physical attributes allow him to compensate, but i don't think Bane is even half as skilled as Bruce." His showings certainly prove otherwise. "
When Bane was chilling out, playing chess with Ra's al Ghul, i beleive he was stated to have mastered multiple martial arts. In a few profiles i read i think it was somewhere between 6-30 different styles (if that). Batman has mastered hundreds. People like to quote his recent scan of teaching Cassandra the major 127 styles, but there are over 200 styles of Kung Fu alone, plus Bruce didn't say this was the extent of his martial knowledge. I remember years ago i read Batman had mastered 329 styles. It's mainly to give the impression that Bruce has mastered them all, or nearly all of them. @entropy_aegis said:
"@velle37: No that prometheus who took on the birds of prey was chad graham.the real one was in a telepathic lockdown or something like that after the mageddon incident, when martain manhunter was killed by libra in final crisis that link was broken and prometheus returned in cry for justice. "
Regardless of his name and who took him out afterward, he stated BT and RD to be above Shiva, and Batman by default, since he wasn't even named.
" @Silver2467: Bane is two tons+ on Venom I think, could be more. "
I said without Venom. I know how strong he is with it.
@velle37
said:
He named the two fighter above Shiva as Tiger and Dragon. The only two who consistently hold the position as the best fighters on the planet are Tiger and Dragon.
Dragon, I agree with. Tiger, prove it, because Shiva is consistently shown and stated as the only possible equal to Dragon or slight inferior, taking place of second. Tiger being listed as such is not supported anything. Not feats, not established traits.
You're right about Simone, but this logic should be applied to every thread. If a feat happens in a comic, that someone thinks is WIS/PIS, it should be discounted, but where does the subjectivity end? It happened in the comics........ I do agree with you though. Especially that Huntress would be able to even touch him. "
This is self-contradictory. You ask me how extensively PIS or poor writing in general can be claimed, only to concur on the notion that Huntress landing hits on Prometheus is poor writing.
I noted that citing Simone on anything relating to Shiva is not credible because of how she consistently writes Shiva in comparison with Shiva's overall showings. Simone has done nothing but repeatedly have Shiva job to characters throughout her series. Huntress, Canary, Prometheus. Using her writing as an example on the matter can be easily disregarded by proving the holes in her knowledge on the character.
I'm sure there are many instances of Batman's armors durability, but there are also multiple inconsistnet showings as well. People should just use logic (as you have) to discern which feats to credit, and which ones to not. Tiger one shotted Bats, then Bats went away contemplating it like... How is it even possible that he did that to me? It was obviously a characterization scene, to establish BT as a credible fighter (a very common tactic in comics.... You want a character built up? Have them beat/have a good showing against an already established epitomized character... *cough* Huntress VS Shiva *cough* ). both fighters have augmented in skill. BT hasn't just been sitting around, else Promethius would have no reason to rank him above Shiva. Shiva said she learns 12 new disciplines each year. Bruce is typically obseesssed with Gotham, but trains in the cave, and took a year off to train with his children. They all train. But DC's hierarchy still has BT above Batman. "
All of this is wrong. The simple fact that BatMan was able to stalemate Tiger later on weakens everything you said. Tiger beat him the first time circumstantially as he caught him off-guard. In a straight hand to hand fight later on, Tiger never gained an advantage over him. Show an example of Tiger increasing his skill. Just because a character is still active does not mean they are becoming more powerful, knowledgeable, skillful, etc. It simply means they are still active. BatMan has traveled twice, specifically for the purpose of his skill-level. That would be an establishment of him gaining a skill increase. Tiger has no such showings. And, no, Tiger is not set as a more skillful combatant than BatMan. Once again, Prometheus stating that says nothing. If I remember correctly, in Simone's run, Canary was stated as a better fighter than BatMan, an assertion not supported by combat showings. She has no credibility when it comes to DC's top fighters, given her lack of understanding of Shiva's capabilities and her consistently proven bias toward Huntress and Canary. Even if Tiger is better than BatMan though, there is nothing to suggest it would be by any significant margin. In fact, BatMan has better combat feats than Tiger does. He has fought and held his own and/or defeated more numerous and, in some cases, more skillful fighters. Taking that into consideration, on top of the fact that they stalemated before, I have yet to understand why you assume that Tiger is a superior fighter.
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