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#1 Edited by laflux (16053 posts) - - Show Bio

Spiders

Healers

Rules and Rounds

Standard Morals

Win by K.O, Death, Incap, Submission

Round 1- All powers enabled.

Round 2- Spiders are not allowed to use webbing, Gorgon is not allowed to use his Stone Gaze.

Gorgon has a normal Katana- Assume Peter's stingers will be able to Parry them, and Gorgon likewise

Arena

Start 50ft away visible.

Who wins and why?

#2 Edited by laflux (16053 posts) - - Show Bio
#3 Posted by dondave (37646 posts) - - Show Bio

X-23 beats Miles Morales. It's debatable as to whether Tomi could beat Peter but with X-23 dropping Miles pretty easily, they can team up on Peter.

#4 Posted by Wolverine08 (42531 posts) - - Show Bio

Siding with X-23 and Gorgon here. I see Miles lack of experience letting him get dropped by X-23 then a team up ocurring on Peter.

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#5 Edited by homicidalmaniac (7664 posts) - - Show Bio

Leaning toward Peter and Miles

#6 Posted by Juiceboks (9110 posts) - - Show Bio

Gorgon should be able to handle Peter quite well and Miles would fall VERY quickly to Tomi. X-23 would likely lose to Peter after a while but would tear apart Miles. It pretty much comes down to Tomi and Laura vs. Peter and Peter should lose there.

#7 Posted by ComicNoob (74 posts) - - Show Bio

Can't Miles KO them with his Venom Blast? I mean it KOed Spiderman himself...

#8 Posted by Wolverine08 (42531 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicnoob: Peter wasn't even trying that hard to drop Miles, and he was sick also IIRC.

@jashro44 should know.

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#9 Posted by ComicNoob (74 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: I see, but how is Gorgon's durability? I know X-23 is like a female Wolverine, so she can probably tank it.

#10 Posted by jashro44 (21963 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicnoob: Peter wasn't even trying that hard to drop Miles, and he was sick also IIRC.

@jashro44 should know.

To be honest I haven't read the spider-men crossover. I really do need to pick it up. All though I don't believe Peter was sick. All though yea its pretty clear he was holding back, and he was also trying to figure out what was going on. I think they were more talking then anything.

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#11 Edited by jashro44 (21963 posts) - - Show Bio

As for the fight I have all ready stated gorgon will probably beat Peter for a majority with Bendis aside in the gorgon vs spider-man thread. Also in round 2 i don't think Miles is experienced enough with spider-sense to counter the stone gaze...

I think X-23 would beat Miles as well. I don't think miles has proven himself as capable in combat as X-23. And I should probably throw out the fact that X-23 also has a good showing against Peter as well so she has experience fighting spider-like enemies where as i don't think Miles has the experience to deal with someone as skilled as X-23.

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#12 Posted by laflux (16053 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

As for the fight I have all ready stated gorgon will probably beat Peter for a majority with Bendis aside in the gorgon vs spider-man thread.

I remember agreeing with you too in said thread, but remember this version of Peter is faster, stronger, with an heightened Spider-Sense, and the option for Penetrative damage in the form of stingers. I not saying Peter wins, but he is more likely to do better with these enhancements than with his reduced physicals he had pre issue 700, although he did have better skill and gear to compensate somewhat.

#13 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (20264 posts) - - Show Bio

I know this is a bit ABC logic-y, but Spider-Man and related characters have always had trouble taking down Wolverine. In SPIDER-MAN VERSUS WOLVERINE #1 (Marvel 25th Anniversary), Peter had plenty of trouble taking on Logan head on. The fight ended up as inconclusive/stalemate. Kaine, Peter's superior in terms of physical attributes, almost broke his hand in SCARLET SPIDER #17 when he punched him. Kaine is in the 30+ ton range. Now, Gorgon practically stomped both Wolverine and Elektra at once with relative ease, and was able to speed blitz both of them, taking out Elektra earlier in the game. Couple that with Gorgon's stone gaze and that would only make the fight more difficult, and seeing as none of the combatants in the Spider duo have anything reflective like Wolverine's claws or a bladed weapon, they have no counter to that. Sure, spider-sense would help them fight with their eyes closed, but against an enemy that has blitzed the Wolverine himself? That's not very good odds at all. I don't know much about X-23, but from what I've seen she has plenty of feats to back up she has a solid chance of taking out Miles or giving Spider-Man some trouble. Round 2 the Spiders definitely aren't winning. Webbing is their best chance at taking out Gorgon and X-23, since both have an extensive healing factor (Gorgon tanked Logan's adamantium claws and Elektra's sais with a a freakin' smile on his face), and with that gone, it'll only be a more uphill battle. Now, before anyone posts out-of-context scans of Spidey webbing up Logan and saying that "since X-23 is inferior to Wolverine the same happens", I'd like to say that Wolverine has consistently sliced webbing shot at him when they were right up to his face. Regarding the infamous scan of Peter webbing up Wolverine in a single page with his claws positioned to his brain, Logan was able to free himself from his entrapment the page after. Seeing as X-23 has the same power-set and formidable skill of her own, she'll be able to replicate the same counter to the Spiders' webbing, albeit with more time. Gorgon shouldn't have trouble slicing up the webs before they can latch onto him. He's certainly fast enough to do so, and his Godkiller Blade should be powerful enough to do the job. Not sure if a regular katana could do the same though. Overall, I'd say Gorgon and X-23 take a solid 8/10 majority. The Spider-Team has the strength, versatility, and more for the potential to snatch a few wins, but with Gorgon's skill, speed, and lethal fighting style should carry him and X-23 to victory. It also doesn't hurt that the Healers team..well...have potent healing factors.

#14 Posted by laflux (16053 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: I see, but how is Gorgon's durability? I know X-23 is like a female Wolverine, so she can probably tank it.

Gorgon tanked multiple slashes from Elektra and Wolverine and recovered nigh instantly. He also took an RPG round as well, so he is pretty durable. X-23 doesn't have Logan's Adamantuim skeleton, only his claws, but she has quickly healed and stayed conscience while tanking building level explosions (with Daken), and was thrown in a wall by World War Hulk, and while knocked out, was otherwise okay IIRC.

#15 Posted by Wolverine08 (42531 posts) - - Show Bio

I know this is a bit ABC logic-y, but Spider-Man and related characters have always had trouble taking down Wolverine. In SPIDER-MAN VERSUS WOLVERINE #1 (Marvel 25th Anniversary), Peter had plenty of trouble taking on Logan head on. The fight ended up as inconclusive/stalemate. Kaine, Peter's superior in terms of physical attributes, almost broke his hand in SCARLET SPIDER #17 when he punched him. Kaine is in the 30+ ton range. Now, Gorgon practically stomped both Wolverine and Elektra at once with relative ease, and was able to speed blitz both of them, taking out Elektra earlier in the game. Couple that with Gorgon's stone gaze and that would only make the fight more difficult, and seeing as none of the combatants in the Spider duo have anything reflective like Wolverine's claws or a bladed weapon, they have no counter to that. Sure, spider-sense would help them fight with their eyes closed, but against an enemy that has blitzed the Wolverine himself? That's not very good odds at all. I don't know much about X-23, but from what I've seen she has plenty of feats to back up she has a solid chance of taking out Miles or giving Spider-Man some trouble. Round 2 the Spiders definitely aren't winning. Webbing is their best chance at taking out Gorgon and X-23, since both have an extensive healing factor (Gorgon tanked Logan's adamantium claws and Elektra's sais with a a freakin' smile on his face), and with that gone, it'll only be a more uphill battle. Now, before anyone posts out-of-context scans of Spidey webbing up Logan and saying that "since X-23 is inferior to Wolverine the same happens", I'd like to say that Wolverine has consistently sliced webbing shot at him when they were right up to his face. Regarding the infamous scan of Peter webbing up Wolverine in a single page with his claws positioned to his brain, Logan was able to free himself from his entrapment the page after. Seeing as X-23 has the same power-set and formidable skill of her own, she'll be able to replicate the same counter to the Spiders' webbing, albeit with more time. Gorgon shouldn't have trouble slicing up the webs before they can latch onto him. He's certainly fast enough to do so, and his Godkiller Blade should be powerful enough to do the job. Not sure if a regular katana could do the same though. Overall, I'd say Gorgon and X-23 take a solid 8/10 majority. The Spider-Team has the strength, versatility, and more for the potential to snatch a few wins, but with Gorgon's skill, speed, and lethal fighting style should carry him and X-23 to victory. It also doesn't hurt that the Healers team..well...have potent healing factors.

This version of Spider-Man has stingers to inflict stabbing damage with, but still a great post on your part mate.

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#16 Edited by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (20264 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: I'm aware of that. Kind of forgot to mention it though lol. Still, Kaine, like I said, in SCARLET SPIDER #17, had considerable trouble taking on Wolverine despite having superior strength, speed, and stingers. Unless BiB Spider-Man has his stingers constantly out, he'll have trouble tagging both Gorgon and X-23. Considering he even does manage to tag Gorgon, the man has endured much worse, from rockets to adamantium claws and a pair of sais simultaneously stabbing right through him. If the stingers are taking anyone down here, it's by ramming it right through their heart, a feat I've only seen Kaine do with an unexpected Wolverine. X-23 should also be safe, since her healing factor has enabled her to similarly tank a rocket, and has went through similar injuries before. If she gets taken out, she'll almost without a doubt be the first one to, and Gorgon is more than enough to hold his own in time for the clawed female fighter to recover/regenerate. And that's if she fights Peter head-on first. If she takes on Miles in 1v1 combat, I'm pretty confident she'd be able to defeat him. She's more skilled, uses more lethal force, and a healing factor. I also doubt the Venom Sting will be able to knock her out from what I've seen so far.

#17 Posted by jashro44 (21963 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@jashro44 said:

As for the fight I have all ready stated gorgon will probably beat Peter for a majority with Bendis aside in the gorgon vs spider-man thread.

I remember agreeing with you too in said thread, but remember this version of Peter is faster, stronger, with an heightened Spider-Sense, and the option for Penetrative damage in the form of stingers. I not saying Peter wins, but he is more likely to do better with these enhancements than with his reduced physicals he had pre issue 700, although he did have better skill and gear to compensate somewhat.

I don't know if the stingers make a huge difference. The only reason Gorgon may be able to tank hits from spider-man is due to the healing factor. Its hard to say if he can take a punch from Peter given Peters high end striking feats. And gorgon also does really well with stabbing damage. He is faster and stronger, thats true but I still feel gorgons reach and skill with a sword will compensate, and I still feel like his TP will balance spider-sense out.

It would be a incredibly close fight though and Peter does stand a better chance then most street levellers/super street levellers (unless you count guys like midnight and karate kid in that tier but I don't).

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#18 Edited by OreoAssassin (5018 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 IMO

#19 Posted by Wolverine08 (42531 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Edited by laflux (16053 posts) - - Show Bio

I know this is a bit ABC logic-y, but Spider-Man and related characters have always had trouble taking down Wolverine. In SPIDER-MAN VERSUS WOLVERINE #1 (Marvel 25th Anniversary), Peter had plenty of trouble taking on Logan head on. The fight ended up as inconclusive/stalemate. Kaine, Peter's superior in terms of physical attributes, almost broke his hand in SCARLET SPIDER #17 when he punched him. Kaine is in the 30+ ton range. Now, Gorgon practically stomped both Wolverine and Elektra at once with relative ease, and was able to speed blitz both of them, taking out Elektra earlier in the game. Couple that with Gorgon's stone gaze and that would only make the fight more difficult, and seeing as none of the combatants in the Spider duo have anything reflective like Wolverine's claws or a bladed weapon, they have no counter to that. Sure, spider-sense would help them fight with their eyes closed, but against an enemy that has blitzed the Wolverine himself? That's not very good odds at all. I don't know much about X-23, but from what I've seen she has plenty of feats to back up she has a solid chance of taking out Miles or giving Spider-Man some trouble. Round 2 the Spiders definitely aren't winning. Webbing is their best chance at taking out Gorgon and X-23, since both have an extensive healing factor (Gorgon tanked Logan's adamantium claws and Elektra's sais with a a freakin' smile on his face), and with that gone, it'll only be a more uphill battle. Now, before anyone posts out-of-context scans of Spidey webbing up Logan and saying that "since X-23 is inferior to Wolverine the same happens", I'd like to say that Wolverine has consistently sliced webbing shot at him when they were right up to his face. Regarding the infamous scan of Peter webbing up Wolverine in a single page with his claws positioned to his brain, Logan was able to free himself from his entrapment the page after. Seeing as X-23 has the same power-set and formidable skill of her own, she'll be able to replicate the same counter to the Spiders' webbing, albeit with more time. Gorgon shouldn't have trouble slicing up the webs before they can latch onto him. He's certainly fast enough to do so, and his Godkiller Blade should be powerful enough to do the job. Not sure if a regular katana could do the same though. Overall, I'd say Gorgon and X-23 take a solid 8/10 majority. The Spider-Team has the strength, versatility, and more for the potential to snatch a few wins, but with Gorgon's skill, speed, and lethal fighting style should carry him and X-23 to victory. It also doesn't hurt that the Healers team..well...have potent healing factors.

You make alot of good points, but first off, Black in Black Peter is Kaine's physical equal, with a Spider-Sense that is even more heightened than normal, as well as having previous experience fighting Wolverine. So seeing how this version would fair against Wolverine is slightly unfair, espicially since the fight between Kaine and Logan was "staged".

You are completely right regarding Wolverine tanking Blunt Tramua from Peter. I've always believed that either Peter can't knock out Wolverine, or on does so on a small number of ocassions that it doesn't a effect the swing of comicvine style battle. Heck Back in Black Spider-Man sucker punched Wolverine during the dissambled arc, and it did much apart from send him flying and make him mad. But concerning Wolverine and Peter's extended fight in the graveyard, I don't like to refer to it exclusively for one of two reasons- First off Peter had no webshooters, second of all, Peter's feats have got alot better from that point onward. Not so much that Logan can't keep up, but there is a considerable difference between the way Peter was written then and in more modern times.

To eloborate on Wolverine's durabiity, I believed you extrapolated that onto Tomi

"Kaine, Peter's superior in terms of physical attributes, almost broke his hand in SCARLET SPIDER #17 when he punched him. Kaine is in the 30+ ton range. Now, Gorgon practically stomped both Wolverine and Elektra at once with relative ease"

You may not have meant this though- if you did, my mistake.

The thing is though and its a valid case nonetheless, is Logan has an Adamantuim skeleton. Tomi doesn't. Which means that he only has his healing factor and enhanced durability to fall back on. That isn't disastrous, as healers have high end durability feats by default- Daken tanked a sucker punch by Skaar and a clobbering by an Angry Thing (pun intended), and both Daken and X-23 Asforementioned have survived building levelling explosions. But healers have lower end feats too- I.e Deadpool being beaten senseless by Spider-Man, Bone Claw Logan being hit by a truck and having every bone in his body broken, and Daken being knocked by a slam by Peter into Electrical equipment (something Miles could replicate via his sting). Now Gorgon does have higher stats than most of these guys mentioned, but Blunt Tramua is a much more viable tactic than against someone like Logan. Will Gorgon and X-23 be one-shotted? I don't think so, but if Peter, and to a lesser extent Miles land blows, they will be felt.

You also talk about Gorgon Speed-Blitzing Wolverine and Elektra, and while it is true, Standard Peter and Logan share similiar Combat speed. This version of Peter is not only physically faster- to the level of Kaine, but has a heightened Spider-Sense- hence why I think comparisons with Kaine are slightly off. Needless to say that this Peter is quite a bit faster than Wolverine when it comes to Combat speed, and way ahead in Pure Speed and Avoidance. And to give credit to Logan, he was still able to land hits on Gorgon. I would also put Miles ahead of Elektra in speed too.

As for Miles, I think its debatable to see whether his Venom sting could do heavy damage. I'm still waiting for @cadencev2 to give his opinion, but Miles sting has taken out healers like Ultimate Omega Red, Venom as well as ultra durable guys like Ultimate Scorpion. Its totally in character for him to use as well, and while his invisibility will have limited efffectiveness due to Gorgon's and X-23's battle prowess and senses, a hit could change things. As for X-23, I don't think she is going to go straight for the kill against a 14 year old kid. She is more likely to go heavy headed against a laxed morals Peter, considering she has fought and beaten him before (granted Peter was holding back).

And a final point, while I don't think that Incap is the be all and end all of this battle, Peter did have near unlimited and organic webbing during the Queen and Other Arc, enough to completely coccon Iron Man firing a Uni-Beam. So I don't think such a tactic should be ruled out completely either.

#21 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (20264 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

You make alot of good points, but first off, Black in Black Peter is Kaine's physical equal, with a Spider-Sense that is even more heightened than normal, as well as having previous experience fighting Wolverine. So seeing how this version would fair against Wolverine is slightly unfair, espicially since the fight between Kaine and Logan was "staged".

I was unaware that Back-in-Black Spider-Man had the same physical statistics of Kaine. The heightened spider-sense is nice, but it can also be countered accordingly by Gorgon's own impressive telepathy, which even Elektra, who has displayed the same ability on off-beat occasions, needed a psi-block in order to properly combat Gorgon. In fact, the moment Tomi broke the psi-block, he absolutely decimated Elektra in a matter of seconds, which Wolverine himself commented on. However, the fight being semi-staged doesn't change the fact that Logan would have fared much better if it was a real battle. Although Wolverine was surprised by Kaine's speed when he used his stingers to stab him in the heart, it is highly plausible that he could have parried it with his claws if he was serious enough.

You are completely right regarding Wolverine tanking Blunt Tramua from Peter. I've always believed that either Peter can't knock out Wolverine, or on does so on a small number of ocassions that it doesn't a effect the swing of comicvine style battle. Heck Back in Black Spider-Man sucker punched Wolverine during the dissambled arc, and it did much apart from send him flying and make him mad. But concerning Wolverine and Peter's extended fight in the graveyard, I don't like to refer to it exclusively for one of two reasons- First off Peter had no webshooters, second of all, Peter's feats have got alot better from that point onward. Not so much that Logan can't keep up, but there is a considerable difference between the way Peter was written then and in more modern times.

Peter actually did have his web-shooters (unless, prior to the encounter Parker remarked that he had a shortage on his web-supply, in which I do not remember).

Sure, Spider-Man has gotten a lot better since then. From learning Way of the Spider, to being a more hardened and experienced heroes over the decades, Peter is without a doubt one of the deadliest and formidable street-levelers out there. That being said, you'll have to recognize that Wolverine has arguably gotten a lot better as well. Not only are writers starting to recognize his martial arts prowess more (although still not nearly enough *cough* Cornell *cough*), but they're also not making him rely on his healing factor as much. Those aren't the only examples of Wolverine being able to stay in the same ballpark as Spider-Man either. IIRC, in MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS #48-50, the two fought briefly a number of times and it ended in a deadlock. Even with the physical amp and heightened spider-sense, I see Logan holding his own, so Gorgon should be able to do pretty well. The Godkiller blade would be able to parry the stingers, and would without a doubt cut right through the webbing.

To eloborate on Wolverine's durabiity, I believed you extrapolated that onto Tomi

"Kaine, Peter's superior in terms of physical attributes, almost broke his hand in SCARLET SPIDER #17 when he punched him. Kaine is in the 30+ ton range. Now, Gorgon practically stomped both Wolverine and Elektra at once with relative ease"

You may not have meant this though- if you did, my mistake.

I was more so comparing the two. Kaine, who has the same physical stats as Back-in-Black Peter, almost broke his hand and had significant obstacles in taking down a holding back Wolverine. BiB Spider-Man, although does have an improved spider-sense, should still have trouble taking down Logan similarly like Kaine did. The point was that, despite their huge physical advantage, webbing, and stingers, both Scarlet Spider and BiB Spider-Man should have a considerable struggle before being able to take any form of victory. When Gorgon fought Wolverine and Elektra however, he proved that such advantages are nothing to him. Wolverine's healing factor, durability via adamantium skeleton, jet-pack, and Elektra's psi-block were still not enough to be able to give Gorgon an even fight. Tomi was fast enough to relentlessly bash on them, soak up whatever damage was dished out, and continue on. He only lost when he used his stone gaze and Wolverine tricked them. I could see Spidey doing the same with his stingers and turn Gorgon to stone, but it's still a slim chance. Before Logan had the chance to pull off his reflective claws trick, he had already been stabbed numerous times; injuries a non-healer like the Spider-Team would not be able to endure. It's also important to note that, from what I know, only a heart and/or brain shot would take down Tomi for the count, and both Logan and Elektra weren't fast enough to pinpoint a hit precise as that.

The thing is though and its a valid case nonetheless, is Logan has an Adamantuim skeleton. Tomi doesn't. Which means that he only has his healing factor and enhanced durability to fall back on. That isn't disastrous, as healers have high end durability feats by default- Daken tanked a sucker punch by Skaar and a clobbering by an Angry Thing (pun intended), and both Daken and X-23 Asforementioned have survived building levelling explosions. But healers have lower end feats too- I.e Deadpool being beaten senseless by Spider-Man, Bone Claw Logan being hit by a truck and having every bone in his body broken, and Daken being knocked by a slam by Peter into Electrical equipment (something Miles could replicate via his sting). Now Gorgon does have higher stats than most of these guys mentioned, but Blunt Tramua is a much more viable tactic than against someone like Logan. Will Gorgon and X-23 be one-shotted? I don't think so, but if Peter, and to a lesser extent Miles land blows, they will be felt.

Blunt force would definitely be able to take down Gorgon and X-23. I was merely mentioning how strength in Spider-Man's league is futile against Wolverine and his adamantium skeleton to highlight Tomi's ability to still absolutely slaughter a geared Logan in a fight. That being said, they'll still have a tough time tagging Gorgon and X-23. One has shown the ability to speed blitz two top-tier Marvel street-levelers while smiling, and the other has shown that she can hold her own against the greats, and has sufficient showings to argue she can take on Miles. Also, whereas the Spider-Team have to land multiple blows an arguably faster opponent, Tomi, realistically, only has to land a single blow to win against either foe in the Spider-Team. Without a healing factor, I doubt Peter, even with enhanced statistics, would be able to tank a sword rammed through his chest. Miles for certain wouldn't be able to survive it. Regarding the Venom Sting, it probably won't take out Gorgon, but it is reasonable that it would be able to take out X-23 for a period of time. My point still stands though: Tomi has what it takes to hold his own against the duo for X-23 to heal back into the fight, especially considering there's a high chance one of the Spiders could already be dead with a gaping hole where their heart should be. X-23 is a similar case. Her claws could deliver more fatal blows, whereas Miles lacks the strength to immediately take anyone out of the fight, and the Venom Sting only a temporary solution. BiB Spidey's stingers are impressive, but they lack the strength of the Godkiller Blade, the numbers of X-23's claws, and the versatility of both. Parker and Morales' blows may be felt, but since the Healers are fast enough to not be tagged too often, they can shrug, or essentially heal, those said attacks off.

You also talk about Gorgon Speed-Blitzing Wolverine and Elektra, and while it is true, Standard Peter and Logan share similiar Combat speed. This version of Peter is not only physically faster- to the level of Kaine, but has a heightened Spider-Sense- hence why I think comparisons with Kaine are slightly off. Needless to say that this Peter is quite a bit faster than Wolverine when it comes to Combat speed, and way ahead in Pure Speed and Avoidance. And to give credit to Logan, he was still able to land hits on Gorgon. I would also put Miles ahead of Elektra in speed too.

It is true that Wolverine and Peter share similar combat speed, with both Kaine and Parker arguably superior in the field, but the fact is that Gorgon was toying with both warriors and still outpaced them. I firmly believe the spider-sense should be either countered or equaled by Tomi's telepathy, which trumps even Elektra's own telepathy. Keep in mind that Elektra's telepathy has been able to communicate with numerous people, read minds to a certain extent, and more. Wolverine was able to land a few hits on Gorgon, but he did shrug them off without much trouble. Add onto the fact that they were adamantium claws, and internal damage via extreme pressure shouldn't be too much of a burden to carry. Miles is ahead in Elektra in speeds too. Tomi definitely is not soloing the duo, but he has displayed in numerous fights against top-tiers that he has the capability to take on both of them and give them one hell of a fight. Not to mention Elektra isn't a good starting point for comparison when you take in account she was defeated fairly easily despite Gorgon not going 100%.

As for Miles, I think its debatable to see whether his Venom sting could do heavy damage. I'm still waiting for @cadencev2 to give his opinion, but Miles sting has taken out healers like Ultimate Omega Red, Venom as well as ultra durable guys like Ultimate Scorpion. Its totally in character for him to use as well, and while his invisibility will have limited efffectiveness due to Gorgon's and X-23's battle prowess and senses, a hit could change things. As for X-23, I don't think she is going to go straight for the kill against a 14 year old kid. She is more likely to go heavy headed against a laxed morals Peter, considering she has fought and beaten him before (granted Peter was holding back).

I'm not sure Ultimate Omega Red has healing feats on par with Gorgon and X-23 though. Gorgon was able to shrug off adamantium piercing straight through his body without the slightest grunt, whereas X-23 simply has better feats in that field from what I've seen. It's a valid tactic nonetheless, and coupled with his invisibility, certainly opens the chance of sneaking up on X-23 before she notices/uses her senses and gets stung. There's also to consider that X-23 could be in the heat of battle against Peter, so she'd be distracted. Miles is not going to be able to get the drop on Tomi with his telepathy though. The guy swung around and decapitated nearly ten SHIELD Agents in a single downward slash. I agree with X-23's morals though. She wouldn't kill Miles, but it's not too much to assume she could deliver a fatal blow to Spider-Man. Morals for both Morales (pun intended) and Peter hinder their abilities greatly, while Gorgon flat-out kills everyone on sight and X-23 is a bit more loose in that regard.

And a final point, while I don't think that Incap is the be all and end all of this battle, Peter did have near unlimited and organic webbing during the Queen and Other Arc, enough to completely coccon Iron Man firing a Uni-Beam. So I don't think such a tactic should be ruled out completely either.

Definitely not, but with someone as deadly as Gorgon as X-23's companion, I doubt either Spider has the time to continously web a single opponent. Not with someone as fast as Tomi. If Peter tried that he is not only leaving out his inferior teammate as open game, but also exposing himself to attacks (or even both). If Gorgon, however, gets snagged and webbed up, X-23 is definitely going down, and the Spider-Team would win.

Overall, I think it's a relatively close and very interesting fight. I still stick with the verdict of The Healers taking an 8/10 majority, but it's a hard-earned victory. Blood, sweat, and tears will no doubt be shed.

#22 Posted by Wolverine08 (42531 posts) - - Show Bio

Looks like YNCG got this thread on lock down.

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#23 Edited by Strider92 (16523 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: Gorgon is one of the few street levelers who could beat Spider-man but it would be close and could shift to either's advantage (providing Peter is taking the fight seriously or is morals off). So this is going to go one of two ways. If Gorgon instantly engages Peter then the Spider-Team has a shot. However if he decideds to take Miles then the Spiders are in trouble. Mailes has never taken on someone with the kind of speed, experience and utter ruthlessness Gorgon has. A lot of people downplay Miles (ncluding myself sometimes) but in this case I can quite honestly say that if Gorgon decided "i want that guy dead" he could most likely kill him before Miles even realized what was going on. Gorgon is stupidly fast and Miles isn't very in tune with his spider-sense (as seen when he called it annoying and got himself caught instead of dodging when his SS told him too). However he does have that venom blast and sufficient stats to give X-23 a good fight and probably even win.

Having said that I noticed one other thing. Your using BiB Spider-man. I think it would have been better to use standard Spider-man with No Morals for the simple reason that BiB Spider-man is FAR faster as we saw when Kaine decked out a bloodlusted SpOck with almost no effort. Peter has some serious speed feats prior to getting the "Other" Upgrade defintiely enough to cause Gorgon trouble. If you use a version that outright stomps standard Spider-man in speed despite all the prior speed feats he has then I don't see this ending well for the healers.

My thoughts on this fight go thusly:

Round 1: The healers take round one providing that Gorgon uses his stare If he doesn't BiB Parker with less morals and increased stats is going to prove too much to handle imo if he engages. If he takes out Miles off the bat then the healers will win as long as Peter doesn't take out Laura in the same amout of time (which is entirely possible) then the healers will win.

I'm going to give the win to the healers tentatively due to Gorgon's stare. Without it they'd be in trouble.

Round 2: Against standard Spider-man Gorgon has at least speed on par with his and maybe a little faster in physical speed. This allows him to give Spider-man a lot of troulbe and keep him on the defensive. With BiB Parker suddenly he doesn't have this advantage. He's out-classed in strength by and even larger margin, in reaction time by increased spider-sene and possibly even in speed given what we've seen the Other upgrade accomplish. Throw in Peter laxed Morals from BiB I don't see this ending in Gorgon's favor.

I give it to the Spiders in a more comfortable win than the Healers would have got in round 1.

Imo it would be best to make Standard Peter Morals Off or Grim Hunt version. I think the "Other" is just a little too much especally now we've seen first hand the stat gap between normal Spider-man and Kaine and Kaine didn't even have a spider-sense.

#24 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: Team Spider Wins. I already fully believe the spider String would temporary KO Healers with no trouble, add in web incapacitate to it and it can be a sure win for Miles against X-23. Miles against Gorgon is iffy at best as I hear Gorgon is suppose to be that damn good. But I have yet to see many scans of his prowess and battle ability, I believe he uses TP to move read which is why he seems so dominate IIRC.

Anyway, I have the link with the important battles and scans. Judge for you self.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/ultimate-spider-man-tribute-1456204/

#25 Edited by Wolverine08 (42531 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Yeah, along with his ridiculous natural speed, he has battle telepathy that lets him reads his opponents moves. I wouldn't place my money on Miles being able to hang with him at all.

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#26 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Yeah, along with his ridiculous natural speed, he has battle telepathy that lets him reads his opponents moves. I wouldn't place my money on Miles being able to hang with him at all.

There ya go.

Does anyone on this site have the full battles of him vs Logan and Electra? Anyone?

#27 Posted by New_World_Order (13235 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh do I love Gorgon!

#28 Posted by Wolverine08 (42531 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2: Yeah, along with his ridiculous natural speed, he has battle telepathy that lets him reads his opponents moves. I wouldn't place my money on Miles being able to hang with him at all.

There ya go.

Does anyone on this site have the full battles of him vs Logan and Electra? Anyone?

I can't seem to find mine.

@god_spawn Could you lend a hand?

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#29 Edited by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (20264 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2: Yeah, along with his ridiculous natural speed, he has battle telepathy that lets him reads his opponents moves. I wouldn't place my money on Miles being able to hang with him at all.

There ya go.

Does anyone on this site have the full battles of him vs Logan and Electra? Anyone?

I can't seem to find mine.

@god_spawn Could you lend a hand?

Poof.

#30 Posted by Wolverine08 (42531 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Nice. I think this also shows how much Damage and attacks to vital organs can cause Wolverine to slow down alot in a fight.

Also what is the deal with Gorgon's sword? Is it Adamantium? Why did Wolverine not slash that sword to pieces?

#32 Edited by Wolverine08 (42531 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Nice. I think this also shows how much Damage and attacks to vital organs can cause Wolverine to slow down alot in a fight.

Also what is the deal with Gorgon's sword? Is it Adamantium? Why did Wolverine not slash that sword to pieces?

Well, he was still functioning pretty well and dishing out if I say so myself. You also have to factor in that Gorgon's vastly superior physicals let him put so much constant punishment on James that it was getting a bit tiring. Most street levelers do not ridiculously out stat him in the way Gorgon does to replicate the same thing.

I actually forgot which sword Gorgon was using during that fight. Pretty sure it was his God Killer blade. Eh, plot. Can't have Logan ending a fight so soon, and he's usually disarmed people like Deadpool of their swords during fights. Couldn't pull that same trick off on someone like Gorgon who is just as skilled, and a much better physical specimen.

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#33 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (20264 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Agreed. Regarding Gorgon's sword, he's wielding the Godkiller Blade, a specially forged sword that was given to Zeus himself.

@wolverine08: I am now! Muahahaha!

#34 Posted by Wolverine08 (42531 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (20264 posts) - - Show Bio
#36 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Nice. I think this also shows how much Damage and attacks to vital organs can cause Wolverine to slow down alot in a fight.

Also what is the deal with Gorgon's sword? Is it Adamantium? Why did Wolverine not slash that sword to pieces?

Well, he was still functioning pretty well and dishing out if I say so myself. You also have to factor in that Gorgon's vastly superior physicals let him put so much constant punishment on James that it was getting a bit tiring. Most street levelers do not ridiculously out stat him in the way Gorgon does to replicate the same thing.

I actually forgot which sword Gorgon was using during that fight. Pretty sure it was his God Killer blade. Eh, plot. Can't have Logan ending a fight so soon, and he's usually disarmed people like Deadpool of their swords during fights. Couldn't pull that same trick off on someone like Gorgon who is just as skilled, and a much better physical specimen.

So what are gorgons stats then? I get he has a insane healing factor and faster than Wolverine by a small margin, but whats his strength then?

@cadencev2: Agreed. Regarding Gorgon's sword, he's wielding the Godkiller Blade, a specially forged sword that was given to Zeus himself.

So its a magic blade.

#37 Edited by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (20264 posts) - - Show Bio
#38 Posted by Wolverine08 (42531 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Handbooks say he's a 2 tonner like James, but that's kind of iffy for me really. He was using his strength to slap around James physically like he was a weakling. Also, Gorgon isn't slightly faster than Wolverine. Due to his own great natural speed, he's been able to blitz Wolverine before he could even process that he was just attacked. The dude has conversions at the speed of thought and was able to casually deflect rounds of bullets from 4 automatic machine guns just by spinning his sword around. He is significantly faster than Logan.

Crazy natural speed, and battle telepathy for the win.

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#39 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio
#40 Edited by jashro44 (21963 posts) - - Show Bio

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Nice. I think this also shows how much Damage and attacks to vital organs can cause Wolverine to slow down alot in a fight.

Also what is the deal with Gorgon's sword? Is it Adamantium? Why did Wolverine not slash that sword to pieces?

Something that should be noted is that when he beat wolverine and Elektra he was just hit with an RPG.

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#41 Posted by ComicNoob (74 posts) - - Show Bio

Well if Gorgon can mindrape and turn the spider team to stone, I kinda think the rules should be edited...

#42 Edited by TheAmazingImmortalMan (3157 posts) - - Show Bio

Gorgon goes toe to toe with BIBSM until Laura finishes off Miles and helps Gorgon take the victory.

#43 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Gorgon goes toe to toe with BIBSM until Laura finishes off Miles and helps Gorgon take the victory.

Its funny cause you think Miles would lose to X-23. Good one.

#44 Posted by TheAmazingImmortalMan (3157 posts) - - Show Bio

Its funny cause you think Miles would lose to X-23. Good one.

you can make statements like that one or make a case for Miles and i'll either debate it or agree depending on how compelling your argument is

#45 Posted by Wolverine08 (42531 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't see Miles beating X-23 at this point honestly. His relative lack of experience and slight ineptness in battle combined with X-23's high aptitude in battle situations, and experience with dealing with someone like Miles before (616 Spider-Man) should let her take the win IMO.

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#46 Posted by jashro44 (21963 posts) - - Show Bio

Well if Gorgon can mindrape and turn the spider team to stone, I kinda think the rules should be edited...

Gorgons TP is only used for mind reading.

Also for future reference it should be noted the term rape is against the rules so you should probably use a different word.

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#47 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@theamazingimmortalman said:

@cadencev2 said:

Its funny cause you think Miles would lose to X-23. Good one.

you can make statements like that one or make a case for Miles and i'll either debate it or agree depending on how compelling your argument is

Fair enough.

First let me go ahead and post everything Miles here.

Miles is a 13 year old kid whose Uncle was the world famous thief known as the Prowler. Stealing from Oscorp one day, the Prowler took with him one of the Genetic Spiders like the one that bit Peter. Miles visiting his uncle later that day was bit by this Spider and given all the powers of Peter and 2 new ones. After Peter's death, Miles decides he could have help Parker if he was not afraid using his own powers, with that in mind he started to fight crime as any awkward 13 year old could with powers. Nick Fury and spider woman pick him up shortly and decide to train him right so what happen to Peter did not repeat itself. Thus a new Spider Man was born

Strength

While at the moment Miles does not have the same strength feats as Peter he does have couple of ton strength.

1-2) KOes Giant woman with a punch to the face.

3) Lifts a heavy frame Cop Car over his head with ease.

Speed and Agility

Miles is Proven as Agile and as Peter as well.

1) Miles moving to fast to be hit by multiple trained Hydra, Hydra who are professionally train by Nick Fury himself.

2) Miles dodges the very highly train SHIELD, and you can see moves as fast as the bullets are traveling.

3) Moves faster than the accurate Targeting Computers and fire power of these Warmachine Suits.

Durability

Miles Durability as a 13 year old is nothing short of incredible.

1) Miles takes kicks from Batroc who can crush Concrete Roads with his leg power.

2-3) Miles takes a vicious slam from Giant woman that only stuns him. Giant Woman has shown to lify easy 60+ tons, so winding her hand back and slamming Miles with all her strength is a major feat.

4-5) Miles tanks a large Explosion at point blank range.

6) Miles tanks another Large Explosion in his face.

7) Scorpion has Super Human Strength and Durability. As seen he can crush super hard concrete floors with his fist and leave craters. He punches Miles in the face and it just causes Miles to see stars for a second.

Webbing

Miles like Peter does not skimp of the Web Spam.

Miles web spamming SHIELD troops while dodging bullets.

Spider Sense

Just like Peter, Miles has a Spider Sense to warn of general danger.

1-2) Warns him of the Cops ready to shoot.

3-4) This is to show it even works on other Spider man powered people, like Spider Woman who is a near exact clone of Peter.

Invisibility

This Spider man has a new power in Stealth. A useful ability he uses in Combat.

1) Goes Invisible on Cops.

2-3) Goes Invisible on 616 Peter, then uses it for a sneak attack.

4) Uses it on Prowler to get some space and counter attack.

Venom Sting

This is the best power a Spider Man character can ask for. Works by utilizing a undentified energy generated by Miles body that causes immense pain. It has KOed super Human durable beings with a touch. however it also has a second delay reaction at times. This Venom Sting works on anything whether Organic or Non Organic.

1) Blows up a plastic Lego set.

2) Conductive through Peter's electric proof webbing. This larger Venom Sting also KOed 616 Peter for hours.

3) KOes the Super Durable Mutant Omega Red.

4) Destroys the Mech Suit Rhino.

5) KOes the Super Durable and High Pain Tolerance Scorpion through his boot.

6-7) One shots Venom.

Battles

Miles very first battle against Electro. Who in this battle was spanking the Ultimates.

His second battle is with Omega Red. Same mutant who gave a season Peter a hard time every time.

Beats the Ringer while learning his own limits still.

This is the battle of Prowler and Scorpion, just to show how skilled Prowler is and how Super Human Scorpion is. After this battle Prowler decides to enlist Miles help. He then gets in a scuffle with Miles to test his nephew out. Miles stats were way too much.

Miles fights the Super Human Scorpion and his little King Pin empire. Once he realize the Durability, Venom Sting.

Here Miles proves that he will do what it takes to put someone down, even his Uncle the Prowler who is the greatest Thief in America and proven quite the skilled fighter with the Tinkerers best toys.

The whole fight of the Mainstream peter vs Miles. In this both are holding back, however it is a great showing of Miels advantage of his added powers in both Invisibility and Venom sting that allow Miles to beat the way more skilled Mainstream Spider Man.

Miles and the mainstream Peter team up against Mysterio who turns out to be mechanical suits operated by the Mainstream Mysterio the whole time.

Miles second encounter with Mysterio. Mysterio was pulled into the Ultimate universe and it was Miles who proceed to beat the snot out of him while everyone else was suffering from illusions.

After this the Divided We Fall and United We Stand event happens.

Miles vs Batroc, a being with legit Super Strength and Agility.

Miles comes across a battle between Cap and Rhino. He intervenes and quickly ends the battle.

Miles battles for his life when Hydra sneak attacks the Ultimates home base. Proving himself capable to Cap he becomes part of the Ultimate Team.

Miles is part of the massive final battle of SHIELD and the Ultimate vs Modi and Hydra. Miles saves Captain America by destroying a group of Warmachines, but gets knocked far away from the main battle. Trying to make his way back, he comes across a Giant Woman who is loyal to Hydra. Already tired and fatigue, he battles the SHIELD train traitor and comes out on top.

Miles faces one of Peters greatest foes, Venom.

Now all the feats are out, what can we determine? Miles fails in train skill. However he has training and is considered a natural fighter by Spider Woman who has the majority of Peter skills as a clone of Peter. What Miles lacks in skill he makes up in raw stats of speed, strength, durability (not to Stabbing of course), and a Spider Sense to help with dodging attacks.

How does he beat Laura? He has 2 easy ways. Web Incap is possible and he can indeed use it. Another is the Spider Sting. The Spider Sting is a attack that has KO beings with insane durability and healing factors with ease. It has NEVER FAILED in taking a foe down to this day. No reason why a few all out Stings will not put Laura down, and she has no clue every light touch of the fingers is a delayed timed attack to put her down until it is too late. Add in Stealth Invisibility to further increase chances of landing hits or dodging attacks all more increase his chances of a win.

Add in In character, how willing is X-23 to kill a child? Especially one who appears not to be using lethal force at all? I doubt she will in character will go all out or attempt to go for kills on Miles. More advantages for Miles to exploit.

All in all I give Miles 7/10 over Laura.

#48 Edited by ComicNoob (74 posts) - - Show Bio

Does anyone know if Miles has ever spammed Venom Blast? Because honestly I can't see X-23 tanking more than 3... Without X-23 I see the Spider team overwhelming Gorgon with BiB Spiderman holding him off and Miles tagging him with VBs.

Edit: NOOOO post limit...

#49 Posted by Wolverine08 (42531 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Add in In character, how willing is X-23 to kill a child? Especially one who appears not to be using lethal force at all? I doubt she will in character will go all out or attempt to go for kills on Miles. More advantages for Miles to exploit.

X-23 is quite morally ambiguous and emotionally cold really. A bit more so than her father Wolverine IMO. I don't think she would try to completely kill Miles in character, but she would most likely still leave him drastically injured/half dead. Miles himself isn't a ruthless combatant either.

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#50 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Add in In character, how willing is X-23 to kill a child? Especially one who appears not to be using lethal force at all? I doubt she will in character will go all out or attempt to go for kills on Miles. More advantages for Miles to exploit.

X-23 is quite morally ambiguous and emotionally cold really. A bit more so than her father Wolverine IMO. I don't think she would try to completely kill Miles in character, but she would most likely still leave him drastically injured/half dead. Miles himself isn't a ruthless combatant either.

No, Miles is not ruthless and does not need to be, his powers and attack are not killing at all.

Also she may slice and dice, but she would still more than likely hold back which is a key advantage for the kid.