Baby Vegeta vs SSgod Goku

VS

are you serious???

SSJ4 Goku >>> Baby

SSJ God >> SSJ4

SSJ God >>>>> Baby

This is where your post started to fall apart.

@sheenlantern: Pfft, ok guy. Sure. Ignore the statements from Toriyama himself.

@jaken7: My sides, this is just too good to be true.

@sheenlantern: I'm cracking up at how sure of yourself you are.

@sheenlantern: SSJ God was always meant to be the strongest possible level of SSJ, and was announced as such. You're the only person I've met who disputes this indisputable fact.

@jaken7: Didnt Akira not make GT? so its not up to him to say SSG>SSJ4

@easternwind: He had as much creative involvement on GT as he did the Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z animes. And yes it is, he's the creator of that universe.

@jaken7: Huh, so why is it non cannon?

• Director: Minoru Okazaki
• Series Director: Osamu Kasai
• Episode Director: Hidehiko Kadoda, Hiroyuki Kakudou, Junichi Fujise, Kazuhito Kikuchi, Mitsuo Hashimoto, Osamu Kasai, Shigeyasu Yamauchi (ep 15), Takahiro Imamura, Yoshihiro Ueda
• Producer: Kōji Kaneda (Fuji TV), Kōzō Morishita, Seiichi Hiruta (Toei Animation)
• Assistant producer: Seiichi Hiruta
• Planning: Kenji Shimizu, Kōzō Morishita
• Series Composition & Chief Scenario Director: Aya Matsui
• Screenplay: Atsushi Maekawa, Aya Matsui, Daisuke Yajima, Junki Takegami (5 episodes), Masashi Kubota
• Storyboard: Shigeyasu Yamauchi (eps 15, 20), Kōzō Morishita (ep 61)
• In charge of production: Yuichi Suenaga
• Character Design: Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru
• Art and Design: Takashi Yoshiike
• Art design: Ryuuji Yoshiike, Tadanao Tsuji
• Art: Koji Sakaki, Tomoko Yoshida, Tsutomu Fujita
• Animation Director: Akira Inagami, Kazuya Hisada, Kazuya Kuda, Masayuki Uchiyama, Naoki Miyahara, Tadayoshi Yamamuro, Noboru Koizumi, Shingo Ishikawa, Takeo Ide, Toshiyuki Sugano, Yuuji Hakamada
• Music: Akihito Tokunaga
• Sound Director: Nobuhiro Komatsu
• Sound Effects: Hidenori Arai
• Editing: Shinichi Fukumitsu

Dont see him on there, im pretty sure he didnt create GT and it was Toei

@easternwind: It was up until BoG made it "one possible future." AKA alternate timeline/universe. People liked to claim it was non-canon because they vaguely remember watching a couple episodes on VHS and they didn't like it at the time. Also because it wasn't based off of a manga. That's the same argument used to denote filler episodes as non-canon.

Honestly though, there's a manga canon, and an anime canon. People seem to forget that.

@easternwind: He served as producer and consultant. You'll see a very similiar list if you pull up the Dragon Ball and DBZ credits.

Look up GT on the Dragon Ball wiki, it talks about there.

I don't think you understand the concept of diverging continuity.

My my my. Now I know your argument had no credibility but did you really have to resort to lying? Toriyama had minor involvement in the Dragonball anime, no involvement in the Dragonball Z anime, and GT was built completely from the ground-up by Toei.

@jaken7: im about 99% sure akira was not involved in GT except for aproving it for Toei.

The way I see the Cannon is there are 4 levels.

Manga

Non Filler anime + BOG

Filler Anime Other Movies and GT

Edit , Ive been corrected on that first part.

EDIT EDIT: I STAND DOUBLY corrected. He now says you are lying.

I assume you could be mistaken. Guess i have to look it up

@easternwind: You decide to take 2 seconds to actually look it up? :P

Baby Vegeta high-diff. Despite how bad GT is, it's simply on a whole other level of power from DBZ.

Power levels can still be compared. Ever visit the battles forums? Why is there a Thor vs. Superman debate if they aren't part of the same continuity?

Ground up eh?

"Toriyama's involvement and canon debate

Akira Toriyama is credited as author in the ending credits of Dragon Ball GT; he oversaw the series' production, this was the same process that was used during the production of the anime series Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. He drew a rough design for the GT logo, he designed the GT appearance of the series main cast, and he designed the appearances of Giru and the GT spaceship used in the Black Star Dragon Ball Saga. He also drew at least three color pictures of Goku, Pan, and Trunks adventuring on various planets (Monmaasu, Rudeeze, and an area in Hell).

Toriyama seems to have positive feelings towards his works' continuation, as he drew his own version of Super Saiyan 4 Goku (which was originally designed by Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru exclusively for the Dragon Box GT. Characters and events from GT have also been included in more recent Dragon Ball video games.

Despite these facts, some fans do not consider GT to be an official installment of the series, most often citing that the series was not directly adapted from a Toriyama manga. Like Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, GT contains minor elements inconsistent with prior anime events. However, GT has the fewest inconsistencies of all three anime series, making it difficult to burden the few that exist as a reason for the series to be set aside as unofficial."

@easternwind ^

@jaken7: Thank you for posting proof . Ill read it.

@easternwind: On your second edit, I wasn't lying (as you can see) he's just an a**hole.

@jaken7: I dont thin I said you were i said he said that so I was gunna look it up

@sheenlantern: What happened!? I was thoroughly enjoying your misplaced condescension, and your false confidence. C'mon back to the thread.

@easternwind: I know, I was just letting you know I'm not, even though he said I was.

Toriyama already stated that SSG is stronger than SSJ4 which is stronger than Baby Vegeta.

Its hard to say, if Akira didn't say that SSJG was supposed to be the strongest form of SSJ id lean towards Baby Vegeta but since Akira said SSJG is supposed to be the strongest, then I have no choice but to go with SSJG Goku.

@sheenlantern: Ha! ^ Those guys are not my alts. Funny how people have said the same thing I did, but you're still the only one that's claimed any different.

@easternwind:@jaken7:

allthough....db_gt and dbz_battle of gods were non-canon and canon, i have a way of powerscaling, which can not be denied..

and aside from the proof we got above, it can be proved through that powerscaling also..

1. omega shenron manhandling ssj 4 goku..

so atleast.. omega shenron > ssj 4 goku

2. now.. we all know... omega shenron was the dark entity of the original shenron.. allthough he was a major and powerful part of the original shenron, he wasn't the whole shenron..

so atleast.... the original shenron > omega shenron

3. now.. when shenron was summoned in the movie.. he told that he can not overwrite bills dids because bills' power exceeds his own

so atleast.... bills > the original shenron

4. and atlast, ssj_god goku fought bills with almost equality..

so atleast bills=/> ssj_god goku

thus from this.. we can get to the conclusion.. atleast.. ssj god goku >>> ssj 4 goku

@ssj_god: Thstd not really powerscaling, its ABC logic

I went for a swim. It's hot in Spain, you know.

Power levels can still be compared.

Never said they couldn't.

Akira Toriyama credited as author in Dragon Ball GT

Uh, yeah. Akira Toriyama wrote the DB mangas.

He drew a rough design for the GT logo, he designed the GT appearance of the series main cast, and he designed the appearances of Giru and the GT spaceship used in the Black Star Dragon Ball Saga. He also drew at least three color pictures of Goku, Pan, and Trunks adventuring on various planets (Monmaasu, Rudeeze, and an area in Hell).

Right, okay. So what makes Toriyama any different from the hundreds of artists hired by Toei who also worked on GT?

Super Saiyan 4 Goku, drawn by Akira Toriyama

Does this make me an unquestionable authority on DBGT?

some fans do not consider GT to be an official installment of the series

Probably because it's not.

yes.. ABC logic powerscaling.. but no one can deny the reasoning.

@sheenlantern: You're ridiculous. I proved you unequivocally wrong and you come back and...

...make me laugh!? How dare you!!!

Seriously though, you said he had no involvement, he had some medium involvement. I never said he was any different from those artists, except for the fact that he created it all. Also, not that it really matters, but he drew SSJ4 Goku to express his approval of the design.

Back to our original point of contention: Look up his quotes about SSJ God > SSJ4 if you really need to. You'll find it quite easily.

Whenever SSJG is mentioned a giant debate over canon2non-canon, SSJG vs SSJ4 always come up.

IMO, SSJ4 (Early) =< SSJG << SSJ4 (Limit Break)

Whether SSJ4 is stronger than SSJG or not, SSJG still beats Baby in his 2nd form because SSJ4 was already owning him, tanking his Revenge Death Ball without a scratch. The only way Baby wins is if he's in his Golden Great Ape form (which owned SSJ4), but he'd need outside help for it, so yeah, SSJG Goku should win this fairly easily.

@jaken7:

I proved you unequivocally wrong

This is news to me. You're trying and failing to prove that Toriyama had any creative involvement in GT. How that makes SSJ4 inferior to God, I have no idea.

Seriously though, you said he had no involvement, he had some medium involvement.

For god's sake, he was staff. He was paid to draw.

I never said he was any different from those artists, except for the fact that he created it all.

No he didn't. He drew what he was told to draw by the people in charge at Toei.

Look up his quotes about SSJ God > SSJ4 if you really need to. You'll find it quite easily.

Let's just pretend that I can't. (And that it would mean anything whatsoever) Why don't you show them to me?

Funny how people have said the same thing I did, but you're still the only one that's claimed any different.

I've learned not always to trust the majority opinion of a world that once elected Bush twice.

@sheenlantern: HE DESIGNED THE MAIN CHARACTERS! As well as the logo, spaceship, and some planets. "Drew what he was told-" Jesus Christ you're dense. You're just making sh*t up and speculating. You have no credibility and won't listen to evidence.

It has nothing to do with SSJ God > SSJ4, that's two different topics that we've each argued about.

Staff would be involvement yes? There's only staff and non-staff so I don't know what you were getting at with that comment.

Get off your high horse you pretentious pr*ck.

@jaken7:

HE DESIGNED THE MAIN CHARACTERS!

So?

As well as the logo, spaceship, and some planets.

My god, this suddenly proves SSG>SSJ4.

"Drew what he was told-" Jesus Christ you're dense. You're just making sh*t up and speculating.

Right, so he just took it upon himself to draw for a project he had no part in? Or, more likely, he drew as part of his job as a graphic designer like he is credited for being.

You have no credibility and won't listen to evidence.

What evidence? You've just been copy/pasting random bollocks from the Dragon Ball Wikia.

It has nothing to do with SSJ God > SSJ4, that's two different topics that we've each argued about.

Well, not really. Since your entire argument on SSJG > SSJ4 relies on Toriyama having authority over GT, which he clearly doesn't.

Staff would be involvement yes? There's only staff and non-staff so I don't know what you were getting at with that comment.

My Uncle works for Microsoft, that doesn't make him Bill Gates.

Get off your high horse you pretentious pr*ck.

We're arguing about kid's TV shows, don't you think you're taking things a little too seriously?

Baby doesn't even need Vegeta. He owns him.

I love dbz and hate every movie, gt, fake, non canon BS that was ever made.

SSG

@jaken7:

So after seeing you feign ignorance and pretend to not understand the evidence that's been given to you so you don't have to admit you're wrong (anyone with a pair of eyes and an IQ above 50 can see that clearly) for the billionth time,

Amazing, just incredible.

One last retort: Yeah guy, if you're paid to draw something, it automatically strips you of all claim to creative credit over said drawing.

Really? You know that's not what my point was. You're just making yourself look like an idiot at best and an obnoxious bell-end at worst.

Also, what other evidence do you need!? "Bollocks!?" Does that mean you're refuting it then?

You know, the hardest thing to understand when reading your comments is what exactly you hope to achieve by spouting this nonsense. You know it doesn't prove anything (At least I hope you do, Jesus.).

The most involvement Toriyama had with GT didn't come anywhere close to plot, script, or anything that would give him any kind of authority over it. He was an artist. So his opinion (I haven't even seen any proof of these wild accusations about SSJG>SSJ4 that people claim to be stated by him) holds no more merit than those of any of the hundreds of other artists who worked on GT.

If you'd like to have a real argument, based on something that might actually reach a viable conclusion, like feats and powerscaling, then I'm sure that would be far more productive than continuing this charade based on wild, and in all likelihood made-up statements.

Lastly, go f*** yourself. ^_^

I feel like a kindergarten teacher sometimes. These forums will be the end of me.

@sheenlantern: You know it disproves everything you've said (at least I hope you do Jesus).

He oversaw the whole series' production (something you conveniently left out when addresing my quote). That means overseeing the writing as well. Also, character designer =/= random staff artist.

That wasn't your point? Then what was. Nothing? That's what I thought. You're just making yourself look like an idiot at best and an obnoxious bell-end at worst.

@jaken7:

You know it disproves everything you've said (at least I hope you do Jesus).

*Sigh*

He oversaw the whole series' production

Yes, and? You keep spouting this nonsense and expecting me to suddenly throw down my arms in defeat. What does this prove, exactly?

something you conveniently left out when addresing my quote

No shit. Because it's something I would have completely expected from the creative consultants. This doesn't make him the writer or producer, this makes him the creator of the source material, something I never disputed in the first place.

character designer =/= random staff artist.

If you'd like to break that down for me, and explain exactly why that is the case. That'd be great.

That wasn't your point? Then what was. Nothing? That's what I thought.

How about I'll explain it to you?

Now, let's imagine I'm an artist, and I've been contacted by Image, and they want me to provide the art for a new series of Spawn and Darkness comics. I do so, and I get paid to do so.

Now when I get home, I jump on the Internet and go to the ComicVine Battle Forums, go to a Spawn vs. Jackie Estacado thread, and type in "I hold creative authority over both of these characters, and I say that Estacado would win without doubt!". That wouldn't stop people from disproving my argument like the idiot I was, would it? No, it wouldn't. The only difference being Toriyama actually does hold creative authority over SSJG. Thus making this akin to Stan Lee just randomly announcing on his Twitter: "Spider-Man would totally kick Superman's ass!".

Except, I still haven't seen any proof of these claims by Toriyama, despite multiple requests to have them shown to me.

wtf...-__- know your facts before you post them people .

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/production/toriyama/#gt

they hired toriyama to draw all the main and side characters such as bulma vegeta,tien ,trunks...etc.even freaking drew the space ships and alien planet terrain

.

he EVEN CAME UP WITH THE NAME GT.

HE HAS OPENLY STATED HE SEES GT AS A PART OF DRAGONBALL.

just think it as if it was canon now its irrevelent

Lol, GT isn't canon.

.... LMFAO.

@jaken7:

i'll quote my previous logic again :)

"Why are DBZ stuff banned I don't understand!? It's not fair"

** Enters this thread and witnesses an off topic argument

Cosigned. It seems there are even heated debates amongst DBZ threads themselves.