Azula vs Katara End of Season 3

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UseYourName

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#1  Edited By UseYourName

All out battle in a huge earth battle arena surrounded by 4 massive pools of water.

R. 1. Full Moon and Sozin's comet (no bloobending) Sane Azula

R. 2. Both bloodlusted with Sozin's Comet and Full Moon (BB available)

R. 3. Regular level

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UseYourName

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Rijehu

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Round 1. Katara stomps.

Round 2. Katara Murderstomps

Round 3. Katara

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Arcus1

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1. Azula should win if she's thinking clearly. Katara only won because she could trick and trap Azula

2. Probably Katara, bloodbending

3. I'd give Katara an edge, she was beating Azula in the Crystal Catacombs

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NorrinBoltagonPrime21

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  1. Azula
  2. Azula
  3. Katara
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Arcus1

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@rijehu said:

Round 1. Katara stomps.

Round 2. Katara Murderstomps

Round 3. Katara

How?

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the_stegman

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#7 the_stegman  Moderator

Azula

Katara

Azula

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Rijehu

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@arcus: She's the better bender.

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Arcus1

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@rijehu said:

@arcus: She's the better bender.

Azula has Sozin's Comet...

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THUNDERBOLT30

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#10  Edited By THUNDERBOLT30

@arcus said:

1. Azula should win if she's thinking clearly. Katara only won because she could trick and trap Azula

2. Probably Katara, bloodbending

3. I'd give Katara an edge, she was beating Azula in the Crystal Catacombs

Pretty much this except I think Azula would take a majority in round 3.

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SirNeko

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@arcus said:

1. Azula should win if she's thinking clearly. Katara only won because she could trick and trap Azula

2. Probably Katara, bloodbending

3. I'd give Katara an edge, she was beating Azula in the Crystal Catacombs

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MetalJimmor

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Round 1: Azula stomps. She only lost because she wasn't thinking clearly. A clear thinking Azula with that much power wouldn't have fallen for Katara's trap, and Azula had much, much more raw power than Katara could ever dream of.

Round 2: I actually think Azula might take it again. Bare in mind Katara is still pretty new to bloodbending. While she definitely could catch Azula in her grasp all Azula has to do is unleash a dragon's breath attack. Amped by Sozin's Comet that would pretty much one shot Katara, and as we have seen Katara has to use her entire body to bloodbend. She can't defend herself while doing it.

Round 3: Katara takes a slim majority. Katara bested Azula once, but it wasn't a definitive victory and Azula was making some pretty careless mistakes. If Azula isn't underestimating Katara I see it as being pretty close, but as Katara has the track record of beating Azula both times they fought, Katara gets the majority.

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Rijehu

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#13  Edited By Rijehu

@arcus: She still loses since Katara is just a better strategist and bender than she is. After looking at the series overall, I realize that people, including myself overestimated Azula when it came to Katara.

Now, let's take all of Katara's one on one encounters with Azula and compare them. Even though Katara handed Azula her butt in the Agni Kai without even trying to hurt her or kill her, many don't consider that a victory because Azula was emotionally destroyed. But let's compare all their ONE ON ONE encounters. I won't count the showdown in which Azula was cornered into a wall by Team Avatar, Zuko, and Iroh, because that was obviously not one on one, the entire Gaang was sleep deprived, Katara had only a sliver of water from her pouch, and this was very early on when she had just finished her training. Anyway, let's count up the individual fights:

1. Ba Sing Se fight in the Catacombs: They fight for a while, Katara successfully defends against all of Azula's attacks, not getting knocked down even once. Katara then uses the water from the puddles to slice Azula's hair off, causing Azula to panic and get a look of complete fear and confusion on her face, as opposed to the sinister, calculating look that she always has. Suddenly, Azula gets knocked off her feet and lands on her butt as Katara uses the water beneath her to do this. Katara then slaps her down with a water while and Azula grunts in pain and horror. Azula tries to throw a fire punch, but Katara puts it out. Azula tries a fire kick, but Katara does the same. Katara picks her up with her water whips and Azula is screaming and panicking with that same look of horror from when Katara sliced off her hair, knowing that she is done for. Suddenly, Zuko jumps in and catches Katara off guard, so Katara's now instead turns to face Zuko and, as a result, she can no longer attack Azula and subdue her individually, as the fight is no longer one on one. Azula gives Zuko a look of approval for saving her from getting her butt pummeled into the ground.

Katara: 1

Azula: 0

2. It is Sozin's Comet. Zuko is on the floor, badly injured, and Katara wants to run over and save him. However, Azula is not going to let this happen. At least not so easily. Katara realizes that she now has three objectives: putting Azula out of action, protecting Zuko's body from her crazy attacks, and saving Zuko in time before his injury becomes lethal. Azula is definitely emotionally destroyed at this point and even tired from her fight with Zuko, but she is also fighting extremely ferociously, holding nothing back, doing whatever it takes to win, having no qualms about killing this "filthy peasant", going as far as to taunt her. Katara, however, has absolutely no intent of killing Azula and just wants to focus on saving Zuko, but knows that she needs to face Azula first. She does not even unleash her full potential, as she, being true master, has restraint over her attacks and knows better than to ferociously let loose, and yet is still able to evade all of Azula's attacks and keep Azula at bay. Azula keeps attacking ferociously with barrages of fire and lightning, but none make any contact with Katara, whatsoever. Katara is at no point injured or knocked down. Katara jumps to take cover and suddenly finds water. She waits for Azula to come in and then, with perfect precision, freezes her and chains her up WITHOUT HAVING TO KILL OR INJURE HER! Then, she rushes over to Zuko and heals him. Azula is helpless in the chains and cannot get out of them. She is panicking, screaming, and breathing fire recklessly. Katara even gives her a look of sympathy, feeling bad in a way for what she has just done. Katara was able to put down a comet enhanced Azula who stopped at no measure to kill her, while still maintaing her moral compass AND SAVING ZUKO IN TIME! Katara has put down Azula without killing her, saved Zuko before his injury became lethal, kept her at bay so that she could do no more damage to Zuko, and she has done all of this without a single scratch on her body. Oh yeah, and the fact that Katara had no advantage, whereas Azula was fighting under Sozin's Comet wasn't exactly a point to be ignored either. Being amped up to that power level far outweighs mental health issues.

People often say Katara only won because she tricked Azula. You do realize that Katara outsmarting Azula, one of the most tactical geniuses in the entire show known for her lethal intelligence, is still impressive, right? I can't think of one other Team Avatar member who has outsmarted her. Aang, Sokka, and Toph were all outsmarted by her during the comet. And even while she's emotionally reckless and insane here, she is smart enough to use Zuko's taunting and baiting to her advantage and know what it takes to beat him. Despite this tactical thinking, it did not work against Katara. To undermine the fact that Katara outsmarted one of the most intelligent people in the Avatarverse is absolutely ridiculous.

Katara: 2

Azula: 0

3. Every time in "The Search" whenever Azula started attacking them ferociously, as soon as Katara stepped in to face Azula, Azula was quickly and easily subdued and made Katara's lackey. Yes, Azula is definitely far gone and not herself at this point. However, that doesn't discredit that Katara still effortlessly subdues her and puts her in her place and that Azula is not able to get out of any of her attacks until someone undoes Katara's attacks. Katara, with a good fight, has been shown tone able to handle sane Azula and, with another good fight, insane but extremely powerful Azula and, with no effort at all, insane Azula on a normal day.

Katara: 3

Azula: 0

Azula even with Sozin's Comet couldn't kill Katara with lightning. Katara is pretty agile herself and was able to evade all her attacks. A feral, ferocious, and emotionally destroyed Katara during the full moon would have drowned Azula before she could have done anything. That, or she would have bloodbent her down on her knees. In fact, I would love to see Azula try to take Katara on during any night, let alone a full moon night. Katara took an entire fleet of firebenders and she had Zuko completely freaked out in this episode when she showed how aggressive she could be under a full moon.

So far, in every one on one encounter that Katara has had with Azula, she had her completely subdued.

I would love to see any form of Azula, sane or not, take on a feral, ferocious, emotionally restless Katara under a full moon. And this means like the Katara that we saw in "The Southern Raiders". Azula would be a casualty in moments.

That there says it all to me.

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Arcus1

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#14  Edited By Arcus1

@rijehu: I can accept Katara beating an unenhanced Azula or an insane enhanced Azula, but imo that doesn't translate to beating a sane enhanced Azula. Azula's raw power under Sozin's comet, when used by her while she's thinking rationally, would be too much for most benders imo. Now under a full moon with bloodbending is a different story, that's Katara's only chance

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pooty

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#15  Edited By pooty

This is like Thor(Katara) vs Silver surfer(Azula). even though Thor usually beats Silver Surfer, I think Silver Surfer should beat Thor. Same here. Even though Katara beats Azula in their fights. I think Azula has better feats overall. without a plot, I say Azula is better

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Rijehu

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#16  Edited By Rijehu

@arcus: Being that amped far exceeded any mental issues she had going on, and as stated, Azula was still cognitive enough to conclude that she couldn't beat Zuko at that point, and attempted to trick him by firing lightning at Katara and throwing a curve ball in the battle. She wasn't as mentally ill as people attempt to make her, even then, the power she had dwarfed her state of mind. Believe me, I used to make that excuse for her too, but it doesn't hold up anymore after watching their interactions. With all that raw fire and lighting power, she didn't even scathe Katara once and Katara herself wasn't even trying to harm Azula. Under circumstances where Katara is actually trying to end her, under a full moon, Azula is done for. And those confrontations have shown that Katara is a superior bender countless times in several different occasions. I am confident in that.

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Arcus1

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#17  Edited By Arcus1

@pooty said:

This is like Thor(Katara) vs Silver surfer(Azula). even though Thor usually beats Silver Surfer, I think Silver Surfer should beat Thor. Same here. Even though Katara beats Azula in their fights. I think Azula has better feats overall. without a plot, I say Azula is better

I would argue this, but I feel the same way about Azula and Aang so...

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Arcus1

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#18  Edited By Arcus1

@rijehu said:

@arcus: Being that amped far exceeded any mental issues she had going on, and as stated, Azula was still cognitive enough to conclude that she couldn't beat Zuko at that point, and attempted to trick him by firing lightning at Katara and throwing a curve ball in the battle. She wasn't as mentally ill as people attempt to make her, even then, the power she had dwarfed her state of mind. Believe me, I used to make that excuse for her too, but it doesn't hold up anymore after watching their interactions. With all that raw fire and lighting power, she didn't even scathe Katara once and Katara herself wasn't even trying to harm Azula. Under circumstances where Katara is actually trying to end her, under a full moon, Azula is done for. And those confrontations have shown that Katara is a superior bender countless times in several different occasions. I am confident in that.

She had tons of power, but she wasn't even using it strategically against Katara (partly because she underestimated Katara). Katara was trying to harm Azula, she just couldn't attack her much because she was too busy running

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Rijehu

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#19  Edited By Rijehu

@arcus said:

@pooty said:

This is like Thor(Katara) vs Silver surfer(Azula). even though Thor usually beats Silver Surfer, I think Silver Surfer should beat Thor. Same here. Even though Katara beats Azula in their fights. I think Azula has better feats overall. without a plot, I say Azula is better

I would argue this, but I feel the same way about Azula and Aang so...

But technically speaking, Thor with the Odin Force would be Katara with the Full Moon and Silver Surfer with the Cosmic Cube power in the Annihilation comics would be Azula with Sozin's Comet.

Thor > Silver Surfer. But I do understand what you are saying.

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Rijehu

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#20  Edited By Rijehu

@arcus said:

@rijehu said:

@arcus: Being that amped far exceeded any mental issues she had going on, and as stated, Azula was still cognitive enough to conclude that she couldn't beat Zuko at that point, and attempted to trick him by firing lightning at Katara and throwing a curve ball in the battle. She wasn't as mentally ill as people attempt to make her, even then, the power she had dwarfed her state of mind. Believe me, I used to make that excuse for her too, but it doesn't hold up anymore after watching their interactions. With all that raw fire and lighting power, she didn't even scathe Katara once and Katara herself wasn't even trying to harm Azula. Under circumstances where Katara is actually trying to end her, under a full moon, Azula is done for. And those confrontations have shown that Katara is a superior bender countless times in several different occasions. I am confident in that.

She had tons of power, but she wasn't even using it strategically against Katara (partly because she underestimated Katara). Katara was trying to harm Azula, she just couldn't attack her much because she was too busy running

That just solidifies that she isn't as good a bender as Katara. She used strategy against Zuko, but not Katara because as you said, she DID INDEED underestimate her as Katara was the better bender.

Azula had basically unlimited and massive Fire power, over a bender who is at a far disadvantage, and the fact that Azula was trying to kill her in ANY way she could and spamming these massive attacks while Katara wasn't even slightly harmed says more than enough. You told me once that agility could make up for lack of raw power. I feel the same about the amount of power Azula had compared to her little emotion problem. No combination of that power (Azula) with that little advantage (Katara) should have left any bender unhindered, yet Katara was evading and out maneuvering these attacks constantly while still coming up with a way to save herself and Zuko fast enough. Mind you, this wasn't even a full moon.

If Katara wants to kill Azula at any level on a full moon, even without BB, I have no doubt in my mind that she could and would do so. She has proven to be better overall. She could have killed her in that Agni Kai as Azula was completely done for once she was in that ice. She wasn't winning that battle at that point. Katara could have sent ice spikes through her body when she was incased in that flash freeze or forced the water into her lungs via her mouth and nose or simply melted away the ice around her nose and forcing her to eventually inhale and drown herself. Katara with normal morals at basic levels has subdued Azula at severals levels. A ruthless Katara under a full moon with and without bloodbending would wreck Azula.

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pooty

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@arcus said:

@pooty said:

This is like Thor(Katara) vs Silver surfer(Azula). even though Thor usually beats Silver Surfer, I think Silver Surfer should beat Thor. Same here. Even though Katara beats Azula in their fights. I think Azula has better feats overall. without a plot, I say Azula is better

I would argue this, but I feel the same way about Azula and Aang so...

Who do you feel is better between Azula and Aang?

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Arcus1

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@pooty said:

@arcus said:

@pooty said:

This is like Thor(Katara) vs Silver surfer(Azula). even though Thor usually beats Silver Surfer, I think Silver Surfer should beat Thor. Same here. Even though Katara beats Azula in their fights. I think Azula has better feats overall. without a plot, I say Azula is better

I would argue this, but I feel the same way about Azula and Aang so...

Who do you feel is better between Azula and Aang?

If Aang actually focused on his airbending, supplemented by his other elements, he'd do much better. Azula only got the better of him because he focused on his earthbending

@rijehu said:

@arcus said:

@rijehu said:

@arcus: Being that amped far exceeded any mental issues she had going on, and as stated, Azula was still cognitive enough to conclude that she couldn't beat Zuko at that point, and attempted to trick him by firing lightning at Katara and throwing a curve ball in the battle. She wasn't as mentally ill as people attempt to make her, even then, the power she had dwarfed her state of mind. Believe me, I used to make that excuse for her too, but it doesn't hold up anymore after watching their interactions. With all that raw fire and lighting power, she didn't even scathe Katara once and Katara herself wasn't even trying to harm Azula. Under circumstances where Katara is actually trying to end her, under a full moon, Azula is done for. And those confrontations have shown that Katara is a superior bender countless times in several different occasions. I am confident in that.

She had tons of power, but she wasn't even using it strategically against Katara (partly because she underestimated Katara). Katara was trying to harm Azula, she just couldn't attack her much because she was too busy running

That just solidifies that she isn't as good a bender as Katara. She used strategy against Zuko, but not Katara because as you said, she DID INDEED underestimate her as Katara was the better bender.

Azula had basically unlimited and massive Fire power, over a bender who is at a far disadvantage, and the fact that Azula was trying to kill her in ANY way she could and spamming these massive attacks while Katara wasn't even slightly harmed says more than enough. You told me once that agility could make up for lack of raw power. I feel the same about the amount of power Azula had compared to her little emotion problem. No combination of that power (Azula) with that little advantage (Katara) should have left any bender unhindered, yet Katara was evading and out maneuvering these attacks constantly while still coming up with a way to save herself and Zuko fast enough. Mind you, this wasn't even a full moon.

If Katara wants to kill Azula at any level on a full moon, even without BB, I have no doubt in my mind that she could and would do so. She has proven to be better overall. She could have killed her in that Agni Kai as Azula was completely done for once she was in that ice. She wasn't winning that battle at that point. Katara could have sent ice spikes through her body when she was incased in that flash freeze or forced the water into her lungs via her mouth and nose or simply melted away the ice around her nose and forcing her to eventually inhale and drown herself. Katara with normal morals at basic levels has subdued Azula at severals levels. A ruthless Katara under a full moon with and without bloodbending would wreck Azula.

Azula was insane, of course she wouldn't be thinking clearly. Underestimating Katara isn't a mistake a sane Azula would make after seeing her in action in the Crystal Catacombs.

Azula had more than a "little emotion problem." By the time she was fighting Katara she had completely lost it. Clearly she wasn't thinking, again making her power significantly less helpful. It's also worth noting that it's not like weaker benders haven't evaded stronger benders before (Ozai was able to evade the Avatar State, doesn't mean Ozai could beat Avatar State Aang)

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Jueix

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  1. Azula
  2. Katara
  3. Katara
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Koays

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Well, Azula can't win here.

4 massive pools of water? I get that firebenders are always with there element but that gives a huge tactical advantage to Katara....what's stopping her from pulling a tidal wave out that freezes Azula and the field?

In a fair or even fight Azula can beat Katara. Katara's wins over Azula are inconsistent for both of them, as Azula has powered through rock attacks at close range before and out maneuvered Aang and Toph in the catacombs for a short time. While Katara has struggled a lot or been of no help in a good number of conflicts when she held the edge.

Katara isn't a pushover by any means, but lets not forget that Zuko was able to thaw himself out of her ice during do to a sunrise in book one, and yet Azula couldn't do the same with comet power and all the hype of a prodigy behind her....PIS was in effect even with the crazy.

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1) Azula

2) Katara

3) Azula

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Rijehu

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@arcus: Her "insanity" didn't stop her from being sane enough to scheme against Zuko. Her insanity didn't stop her from using a cognitive move of TRYING to take out the unaware bender (Katara) after realizing she couldn't handle the one she was fighting (Zuko) in order to turn the tides of the battle and throw Zuko off guard (or so she thought) so no, she was not insane to the point that she couldn't execute massive power attacks or use her power in deadly and dynamic ways because she still did just that. Azula didn't fail to land a single attack katara because she was insane or out of her mind, she actually was accurately firing at Zuko, he just learned to counter her raw power with his own and a mixture of his new identity with fire, she just wasn't the tactician or bender Katara was. I can't make excuses for the amount of power she had, adding that to the fact that she herself was a prodigy of fire bending and a highly intellectual master of scheming herself , her amount insanity or mental affliction wasn't enough to hinder her power and skill during that battle. She was just bested by a better bender who had less power (no full moon) and less of her element to bend.

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Arcus1

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@rijehu said:

@arcus: Her "insanity" didn't stop her from being sane enough to scheme against Zuko. Her insanity didn't stop her from using a cognitive move of TRYING to take out the unaware bender (Katara) after realizing she couldn't handle the one she was fighting (Zuko) in order to turn the tides of the battle and throw Zuko off guard (or so she thought) so no, she was not insane to the point that she couldn't execute massive power attacks or use her power in deadly and dynamic ways because she still did just that. Azula didn't fail to land a single attack katara because she was insane or out of her mind, she actually was accurately firing at Zuko, he just learned to counter her raw power with his own and a mixture of his new identity with fire, she just wasn't the tactician or bender Katara was. I can't make excuses for the amount of power she had, adding that to the fact that she herself was a prodigy of fire bending and a highly intellectual master of scheming herself , her amount insanity or mental affliction wasn't enough to hinder her power and skill during that battle. She was just bested by a better bender who had less power (no full moon) and less of her element to bend.

Azula slipped further after she took out Zuko. Katara only won because of Azula's insanity, which allowed her to lead Azula into a trap. Katara did try to attack Azula, but she could barely get time to attack because she was too busy running, and the one time she did get an attack in Azula was already gone.

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Rijehu

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#28  Edited By Rijehu

@koays: That Agni Kai wasn't PIS. Azula just wasn't going to win. The globe of water Katara froze Zuko in was not as strong or dense as the one in which she placed Azula in, also Azula was flash frozen while Zuko was slowly encased.

Another reason for this is because Azula was stuck in the middle of a Lightning Bending pose, which in itself requires focus. This was negated by the flash freeze before it could be released. Coupled with her mental state, Azula would not have been able to bend herself out of that with heat due to her having not been able to take in a sufficient amount of air to firebend before-hand, and Katara having taken her by surprise. That and you noticed that she lacked air when Katara released her from her frozen prison, when she tried to catch her breath desperately. If she attempted to firebend herself out, she would've sacrificed the last bit of air she had left to do so and, the attempt would have failed due to firebending not only being hindered by the presence of cold, but because of how little fire she would've been able to produce due to her lack of air. Zuko overcame this because he had air to breathe and/or took in a sufficient amount of air to melt a thin layer of ice. This ice was much thicker than what Zuko had to encounter and at best-- she would've waterboarded herself.

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Rijehu

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@arcus said:

@rijehu said:

@arcus: Her "insanity" didn't stop her from being sane enough to scheme against Zuko. Her insanity didn't stop her from using a cognitive move of TRYING to take out the unaware bender (Katara) after realizing she couldn't handle the one she was fighting (Zuko) in order to turn the tides of the battle and throw Zuko off guard (or so she thought) so no, she was not insane to the point that she couldn't execute massive power attacks or use her power in deadly and dynamic ways because she still did just that. Azula didn't fail to land a single attack katara because she was insane or out of her mind, she actually was accurately firing at Zuko, he just learned to counter her raw power with his own and a mixture of his new identity with fire, she just wasn't the tactician or bender Katara was. I can't make excuses for the amount of power she had, adding that to the fact that she herself was a prodigy of fire bending and a highly intellectual master of scheming herself , her amount insanity or mental affliction wasn't enough to hinder her power and skill during that battle. She was just bested by a better bender who had less power (no full moon) and less of her element to bend.

Azula slipped further after she took out Zuko. Katara only won because of Azula's insanity, which allowed her to lead Azula into a trap. Katara did try to attack Azula, but she could barely get time to attack because she was too busy running, and the one time she did get an attack in Azula was already gone.

That is speculation bro. Azula didn't "slip" to the point where she couldn't fight properly (if at all) and she wouldn't have done so in a few seconds after Zuko was downed. She was still in character here. She has always been deceiving and ruthless in her bending and her tactics, which you clearly saw in that battle. There was nothing "different" about her motives or her character so it wasn't like she was a completely different person incapable of fighting properly. She still had deadly and precise attacks and power here. She was just outclassed by Katara, who has proven consistently that she is the better bender. As I have shown you, she has already beaten sane Azula who can still shoot lighting and still possesses the same deadly intent. And as I said, Katara wasn't trying to seriously harm or kill Azula, she was more concerned with helping Zuko, which is why she didn't go all out against her. Katara had far less power (and still held back), and way less resources for bending, yet she still outclassed Comet enhanced Azula without being at her full potential, and walking away without a SINGLE singe.

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#30  Edited By Arcus1

@rijehu:

I think it should be pretty evident that Azula wasn't in her right mind and that it affected her performance

Proof that Katara was significantly holding back? You keep bringing that up, but I'm not seeing any evidence that she was holding back anywhere near as much as your suggesting. The only evidence you've offered is that she didn't kill Azula after she trapped her, which really only proves that Katara's not cruel. It doesn't mean Katara was significantly holding back

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@rijehu said:

@koays: That Agni Kai wasn't PIS. Azula just wasn't going to win. The globe of water Katara froze Zuko in was not as strong or dense as the one in which she placed Azula in, also Azula was flash frozen while Zuko was slowly encased.

Another reason for this is because Azula was stuck in the middle of a Lightning Bending pose, which in itself requires focus. This was negated by the flash freeze before it could be released. Coupled with her mental state, Azula would not have been able to bend herself out of that with heat due to her having not been able to take in a sufficient amount of air to firebend before-hand, and Katara having taken her by surprise. That and you noticed that she lacked air when Katara released her from her frozen prison, when she tried to catch her breath desperately. If she attempted to firebend herself out, she would've sacrificed the last bit of air she had left to do so and, the attempt would have failed due to firebending not only being hindered by the presence of cold, but because of how little fire she would've been able to produce due to her lack of air. Zuko overcame this because he had air to breathe and/or took in a sufficient amount of air to melt a thin layer of ice. This ice was much thicker than what Zuko had to encounter and at best-- she would've waterboarded herself.

I'm aware that Zuko's containment wasn't as strong, I just think with the comet going she had a by far better power increase then the sunrise burst that puts the situations on about the same level. The shock from the flash freeze could be a good point though.

Azula though wasn't going for a lightning bending move though. Azula almost always bends with 2 fingers, but with lightning she leaves a trail of it behind her. Also she generally has a longer charge time then the length of the cartwheel she pulled....unless in her insanity she forgot, which is actually possible. Still, keep in mind that Azula tends to bend with minimal effort throughout the series. And exhalation of breath to heat the ice (especially as Katara swam through it) or to even continue her attack on katara isn't much of a leap. Judging by the way we've seen Firebending it seems that to do whatever she planned to do to Katara she would've needed to have already inhaled for the attack. I'm not saying she breaks out of it in force, but heating her body to escape seems within her capabilities with Sozin's comet above her and the levels she'd shown just prior to this moment.

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Azula

Katara

Stalemate

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#33  Edited By Rijehu

@arcus:

@arcus said:

@rijehu:

I think it should be pretty evident that Azula wasn't in her right mind and that it affected her performance

Proof that Katara was significantly holding back? You keep bringing that up, but I'm not seeing any evidence that she was holding back anywhere near as much as your suggesting. The only evidence you've offered is that she didn't kill Azula after she trapped her, which really only proves that Katara's not cruel. It doesn't mean Katara was significantly holding back

What you think and what IS, isn't the same thing though. Azula has NEVER shown herself to be the better bender against Katara one on one even sane. You saying she wasn't in her right mind isn't justifying the fact that she was still capable of both scheming, treachery, and still bending with enough precision and skill to make contact with Zuko so that he even had to counter her attacks in the first place. Azula still knew how to accurately fire bend on a prodigal level here and had the power boost to utterly roast any bender below that power level or at that great of a disadvantage in that Agni Kai. But Katara STILL outclassed her, because she is better.

And Katara was holding back because she didn't perform any of the offensive attacks or transmutation techniques she usually uses in other battles or fights. When she had Azula trapped, she could have pulled more water from underground and whipped Azula into submission or frozen only certain parts of her body in ice, leaving other exposed. She could have tossed Azula with a wave or wrapped her limbs in tendrils and slammed her as she was about to do in the catacombs. She actually didn't use any offensive attacks beside just chunking a wave at Azula, which Azula was mentaly capable enough to dodge, and we know Katara she is capable of MUCH more. Katara could have actually done anything she wanted to do to Azula (at least within the range of the amount of water she had) after she had trapped her but she didn't because she had no intentions on harming her or humiliating her to that extent. She wanted to subdue her and save Zuko, which is exactly what she did.

Azula literally tried everything in her power to kill a girl who didn't even want to truly hurt her. Look at the battle and the amount of agility Azula was using with the massive amount of power she had, yet Katara out maneuvered her with limited amount of water, at basic bending levels, while having more than one objective on her mind and rushing to save Zuko. You can't convince me she won simply by "chance" because Azula had a little slip when literally EVERY other battle they've had one on one says otherwise. Katara is a better bender, consistently proven, and thats without the power of the full moon or bloodbending, and Katara was never touched. So once again, if katara is given the full moon and has a desire to kill even a sane enhanced Azula, she will do so, because Azula is still just as treacherous, but also sometimes impulsive as she always has been. Katara has experience with all of Azula's "moods" and power levels without having her full capabilities, and has still subdued Azula down in EVERY one on one occasion in the books (several) and as we have seen, the TV shows as well.

I will preach it until Comicvine shuts down,being amped that far, exceeds any mental breakdown. Azula was not handicapped to where she couldn't even land a single hit on a water bender with little water and no power boost with the massive amount of fire and lightning she had at her endless disposal. Her power level or power execution was NOT affected by her mental state. Otherwise Zuko with his own enhanced fire power would have utterly stomped her with no opposition, yet we see she was still at least formidable for HIM even with her "slipping" so no, in those few seconds between targets, she didn't slip to the helpless, powerless, and thoughtless point that people wish for her to have been in order to justify her losing that battle. She lost to the better bender and it's just that simple.

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@rijehu:

It doesn't matter that Katara didn't torture Azula after she was trapped. That seems to be the only evidence you have to offer that Katara was "holding back" during the actual fight. Once Azula was frozen the fight was done. The rest doesn't matter

I'm not saying Katara won in the Agni Kai by chance, I'm saying she won because Azula wasn't in her right mind. I don't know why you're trying to just dismiss that fact when it was made very clear that Azula was going insane and that it affected her battle performance. Katara only won by trickery, something a sane Azula wouldn't fall for

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@rijehu:

You should go back and watch Azula's arc during book 3 and really pay attention to the nuances of Azula's descent into madness.

Naturally, Azula was never perfectly sane. She was a sociopath through and through. The only thing that really seemed to bother her was her mother's fear of her. Azula had issues with rejection and love. This peaked after Zuko's betrayal of the Fire Nation and the subsequent betrayal of Mai and Ty Lee, Azula's only friends. After that incident Azula's primary goal wasn't to capture the avatar anymore. She specifically states she wants to murder Zuko. Why kill Zuko? Because it was Mai's love for Zuko that drove Mai to betray Azula, which lead to Ty Lee betraying her as well. Azula's last two connections to any semblance of humanity was taken away because of Zuko.

"I'm about to celebrate becoming an only child!" Azula was never out to murder Zuko before this incident. Her goal was to capture him and bring him to her father, not to murder him. Later she even goes as far as to convince him to return to the fold. Now suddenly her entire motivation is to kill Zuko.

During their Agni Kai Azula was clearly overconfident, and why shouldn't she be? She had always beaten Zuko before. But this time was different. Zuko was not only holding his own but winning. You could see it in the look on her face. Even her superiority that she had so long coveted was being taken away from her. When Zuko challenged her to produce lightning she was in a rage, notable by the tone of her voice and the hasty strokes of her arms as she charged her lightning. At the very last second she made a desperate strike against Katara, out of rage from the look in her eyes, in hopes of killing someone. I don't personally think she expected Zuko to jump in the way. I believe she fully intended to kill Katara just to spite Zuko.

Whe Zuko did go down Azula's entire demeanor changed. She was overjoyed. She had finally accomplished her goal in killing off her brother. She became joyous. Her first move was, of course, to attack Katara and finish the job.

Now you should note Azula's personality has changed dramatically from the start of this fight to this point. Azula is cackling like a mad woman where as before she was quiet and confident as she always is. When she went to shoot lightning at Katara she literally stopped on a roof, laid down while charging it, and casually shot at Katara while making a sarcastic quip about the family physician. This is not how Azula fights. She was carelessly tossing out fire blasts and spamming lightning with no thought to it.

By this point Azula was throwing wild shots. She wasn't thinking. So tricking her into a trap isn't especially impressive, and beating her via tactics in this instance doesn't translate well to beating Azula while she has her full mental faculties.

It's also worth remembering that Katara was running scared that entire fight. She couldn't erect lasting defenses against the sheer offensive power Azula was packing, and couldn't form an offense that could get past Azula's defense. Katara only won because Azula at the time was near brainless and seemed to be high off the good vibes from taking down Zuko.

I agree that Katara is better than Azula, but Azula under Sozin's Comet is MASSIVELY stronger than Azula without it. With a clear mind there aren't many benders that could survive five minutes with her, let alone win. Such is the nature of overwhelming power amps.

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Sane Azula wins, Katara takes second 2 rounds

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Why do people think Azula fired lightning at Katara because Azula didn't think she could beat Zuko? Azula saw she was out numbered and tried to even the odds before Katara had a chance to intervene. Azula had no way of knowing Zuko would sacrifice himself. I don't think Azula was scared of either of them. Katara beat Azula, both times, because of plot(the good guy has to win) or because Azula had a fighting style that Katara could exploit. Between her bending, agility and being able to spot weakness, Azula was overall the better fighter. Katara was just her kryptonite

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Does anyone know the location/terrain as it can be a crucial in this fight?

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@pooty: Azula challenged Zuko to the Agni Kai to remove the threat of Katara, and even then she clearly wasn't beating Zuko. Katara was just kinda standing there, she wasn't interfering, don't know why Azula would have been worried about her instead of Zuko

Azula might have been the better fighter, but considering her record against Katara I don't think it matters (under normal conditions where no one has a significant environmental advantage)

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#41  Edited By pooty

@arcus: Zuko was not winning against Azula either. She attacked Katara for a few reasons: She was an enemy of the fire nation. she was a friend of Zuko. If she beat Zuko she would still have to fight Katara. Any of those is enough reason for azula to attack. I admit Zuko was holding his own. But nothing indicates she attacked Katara out of fear of Zuko. Still, based on their track record, I say Katara wins all three rounds

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@pooty:

Well Azula was out of breath and hadn't landed a single attack, while Zuko was fine and had landed an attack. Why would Azula be more concerned about Katara than Zuko? And how does Katara beat a sane, Sozin's Comet amped Azula without bloodbending?

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@arcus: Landing one attack does not show superiority. And she was not out of breath because she had an entire fight with Katara immediately afterward. But you make a point. Azula had just fought a battle with Zuko, then immediately had to fight Katara. Azula could not have been 100% fresh when she fought Katara. And Azula was not concerned with Katara. But if Azula saw an opportunity to hurt any opponent,she would take it. Azula attacked her Brother and uncle. She wouldn't hesitate to kill Katara at any given chance. You're right about the one round. With the comet and her sanity and not being tired from fighting Zuko, Azula should win that round

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@pooty said:

@arcus: Landing one attack does not show superiority. And she was not out of breath because she had an entire fight with Katara immediately afterward. But you make a point. Azula had just fought a battle with Zuko, then immediately had to fight Katara. Azula could not have been 100% fresh when she fought Katara. And Azula was not concerned with Katara. But if Azula saw an opportunity to hurt any opponent,she would take it. Azula attacked her Brother and uncle. She wouldn't hesitate to kill Katara at any given chance. You're right about the one round. With the comet and her sanity and not being tired from fighting Zuko, Azula should win that round

Yes, actually, she was out of breath. Or at least she was gasping/breathing heavily-I would call that out of breath.

I guess it doesn't really matter why Azula attacked Katara, she's insane so who knows what exactly she was thinking.

I think Azula wins round 1, Katara wins round 3, round 2 with bloodbending and the comet is a tossup depending really on who acts first

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@arcus: Cool. I'm sure you remember better then I do. and it doesn't matter why she attacked Katara but every single post I've ever read says it's because she knew she couldn't beat Zuko. I was offering other reasons. I want to say Azula wins but Katara has beaten her with and without the comet.

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@pooty: I guess the main reason is she's just a crazy psychopath

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#47  Edited By Rijehu
@metaljimmor said:

@rijehu:

You should go back and watch Azula's arc during book 3 and really pay attention to the nuances of Azula's descent into madness.

Naturally, Azula was never perfectly sane. She was a sociopath through and through. The only thing that really seemed to bother her was her mother's fear of her. Azula had issues with rejection and love. This peaked after Zuko's betrayal of the Fire Nation and the subsequent betrayal of Mai and Ty Lee, Azula's only friends. After that incident Azula's primary goal wasn't to capture the avatar anymore. She specifically states she wants to murder Zuko. Why kill Zuko? Because it was Mai's love for Zuko that drove Mai to betray Azula, which lead to Ty Lee betraying her as well. Azula's last two connections to any semblance of humanity was taken away because of Zuko.

"I'm about to celebrate becoming an only child!" Azula was never out to murder Zuko before this incident. Her goal was to capture him and bring him to her father, not to murder him. Later she even goes as far as to convince him to return to the fold. Now suddenly her entire motivation is to kill Zuko.

During their Agni Kai Azula was clearly overconfident, and why shouldn't she be? She had always beaten Zuko before. But this time was different. Zuko was not only holding his own but winning. You could see it in the look on her face. Even her superiority that she had so long coveted was being taken away from her. When Zuko challenged her to produce lightning she was in a rage, notable by the tone of her voice and the hasty strokes of her arms as she charged her lightning. At the very last second she made a desperate strike against Katara, out of rage from the look in her eyes, in hopes of killing someone. I don't personally think she expected Zuko to jump in the way. I believe she fully intended to kill Katara just to spite Zuko.

Whe Zuko did go down Azula's entire demeanor changed. She was overjoyed. She had finally accomplished her goal in killing off her brother. She became joyous. Her first move was, of course, to attack Katara and finish the job.

Now you should note Azula's personality has changed dramatically from the start of this fight to this point.Azula is cackling like a mad woman where as before she was quiet and confident as she always is.When she went to shoot lightning at Katara she literally stopped on a roof, laid down while charging it, and casually shot at Katara while making a sarcastic quip about the family physician. This is not how Azula fights. She was carelessly tossing out fire blasts and spamming lightning with no thought to it.

By this point Azula was throwing wild shots. She wasn't thinking. So tricking her into a trap isn't especially impressive, and beating her via tactics in this instance doesn't translate well to beating Azula while she has her full mental faculties.

It's also worth remembering that Katara was running scared that entire fight. She couldn't erect lasting defenses against the sheer offensive power Azula was packing, and couldn't form an offense that could get past Azula's defense. Katara only won because Azula at the time was near brainless and seemed to be high off the good vibes from taking down Zuko.

I agree that Katara is better than Azula, but Azula under Sozin's Comet is MASSIVELY stronger than Azula without it. With a clear mind there aren't many benders that could survive five minutes with her, let alone win. Such is the nature of overwhelming power amps.

I'm going to touch on mainly the highlighted points.

The first few highlighted points are focusing around the fact that Azula wanted to kill Zuko after Mai betrayed her for his love and that she wanted to kill Katara to spite Zuko. If anything, that would indicate that she knew exactly what she was doing when she fired Lightning at Katara in that Agni Kai.

Scenario 1: Azula planned to kill Katara

If Azula's plan was to simply kill Katara first or at all, it could have been because she saw Katara as a legitimate threat that she had to take out. (Which would be plausible due to the conversation they had and the fact that they BOTH approached Azula).

{Z} "Sorry, but you're not going to become Fire Lord today. I am." {A} *laughs* "Your'e Hilarious." {K} "And you're going down."

Aula isn't an idiot and her battle from the catacombs would have easily let her know that Katara was serious. The fact that Katara actually got off of Oppa along with Zuko and made that threatening statement would have allowed Azula to know that she was ultimately going to take on both of them, initially anyway. Katara isn't a lightweight bender and Azula would have known this.

That would mean that Katara was NOT underestimated and Azula just lost to a better and more practical bender. For relevance purposes however, that wouldn't make much sense because she already had her hands full with Zuko one on one anyways so Katara wasn't needed.

Even without that motive, killing Katara wouldn't have been an effective idea because then Zuko would still have been alive and a contender, thus she was not going to become Fire Lord unless he was defeated anyway. You yourself admitted that he was already winning and that was without Katara's interference so she wasn't going to be able to kill Zuko either. It would have been completely pointless to simply want to "kill" a person that has no affect on not only the battle (due to Zuko being trouble alone), but her being crowned Fire Lord either since Katara isn't a threat to the throne.

Using that logic, If she had killed Katara, she still would have lost to Zuko, obviously meaning he isn't dead, and still have lost the throne due to him being alive in the first place and the superior fighter, accomplishing nothing at all. Not to mention that this very plot wouldn't have taken place so that happening without ulterior consequences would have been completely irrelevant.

With that being said, the ONLY way in which it would have made sense for Azula to "spite" Zuko by Killing Katara, even it it were a desperate move as you claim, (which the keen look in Azula's eyes before she fired it and the smile afterwards can easily say otherwise) is if she would have known that it would have had an effect on his own mental state by watching Katara get roasted alive and cause him to loose focus on the inevitable battle between the two of them which still had to have taken place anyway in order for both Zuko to die and her to become Fire Lord since she wanted these two things more than anything else and they were now a packaged deal, one automatically equating to the other. That would indicate that Azula was still indeed capable of cognitive functions such as deceit, proactive planning, and tactical scheming (emotionally damaging Zuko in an attempt to throw him off in battle) which means that she wasn't as incapable or mentally impaired as you are trying to make her, and not to the level where she couldn't properly aim, direct, or land one single blast.

In this case, she wouldn't have been "brainless" at all and would have only been surprised (which is not insane) when Zuko tanked the blast instead and that would indicate that she still lost to Katara simply because Katara was the better bender and a better tactician, meaning she was just outsmarted because she was simply bested, not because she was handicapped.

Scenario 2: Azula planned on Zuko tanking the blast

Let's assume that Azula knew Zuko would take the shot of lightning. This would still prove that she was cognitive enough to pre plan and concoct up a scenario in which she could successfully injure Zuko with an attack that she otherwise would not have harmed him with.

Although her attacks were landing and making contact in Zuko's area, he was countering them with his own. She knew she wasn't going to hit him with direct attacks anymore. Not to mention the fact, that before Azula even charged the Lighting, Zuko literally said "No Lightning today? What's the matter? Afraid I'll redirect it?" You can't tell me at that moment that Azula didn't KNOW she was incapable of landing a direct shot on Zuko and she didn't know that she would shoot her own self in the foot by firing that lightning at him. And even if she hasn't seen him redirect lightning in person, she saw how he was countering and redirecting her previous powerful attacks so even the idea that he could do the same with lightening would have been enough motive to plan around Zuko's scheme.

In THAT moment after the lightning was charged, it is more plausible to believe that she was still mentally healthy enough to make the decision to fire the lighting at Katara because:

1) She wasn't going to aim directly at Zuko and risk being fried by him redirecting it to her, yet we know she still wanted him dead as you claim.

2) She actually used his own plan against him, and coupled it with her own by not only changing the direction of her own blast, but sending it towards Katara to throw Zuko off and catch Katara off guard.

3) She was fully aware that Zuko cared enough for Katara (which is what this entire scenario is about) and knew that he would attempt to save her life, thus sacrificing his defensive bending, injuring himself, and thus his dominance in the battle. This is also plausible due to the same conversation as mentioned earlier.

After Azula asked Zuko to the Agni Kai.

{Z} "Your'e on." {K} "What are you doing? She's playing you. She knows she can't take us both so she is trying to separate us." {Z} "I know, but I can take her this time." {K} "But even you admitted to your Uncle that you would need help facing Azula." {Z} "There is something off about her. I can't explain it but she's slipping. And this way, *looks at Katara* noone else has to get hurt."

Even here, both admit that not only does Azula know she can't take the both of them on, but that she was trying to separate them. So no, Azula wasn't in such a remedial state that she couldn't use reasoning skills to know that she was outmatched or plan a way to even the playing field, and as I stated earlier, she couldn't have thought Katara was a subpar bender because they already battled before in which Katara got the upperhand. Azula is FAR more aware and cognitive of whats going on than people are giving her credit for.

And Zuko admits that "no one (referring to Katara) else has to get hurt." Even in her "slipping" state, Zuko knew Azula was still capable of AT LEAST harming Katara even with both of them fighting her because that is JUST HOW POWERFULLY AMPED she was.

4) Going with the desperation excuse you are trying to use, as I stated earlier, she may have indeed saw Katara as a threat so she could have been attempting to pull off a win win in a deadly manner, meaning if the blast hit Katara, she died, and if Zuko attempted to block, he would be killed, meaning that either way she would have taken at least one down in an attempt to once again, even the playing field, which is still a showing of her not being "insane" to the point that she can't function on a fairly clever level.

So in either of these scenarios, Azula wasn't crazy to the point that she was incapable of being deadly or precise, since both the actuall battle and the dialogue says otherwise. The reckless firing you mentioned Azula was doing had nothing to do with the fact that she was amped enough to utterly eradicate Katara even without direct blasts because the area of affect of those things were HUGE, but she couldn't because Katara was outclassing her the whole time. Even when Azula stopped shooting lighting and actually jumped down to chase Katara, she attempted to melt the ice Katara was sliding on but Katara was too fast. Azula even did some type of athletic flip move (which look pretty precise and awesome to me) in which she shot a huge blast of fire from her feet and two more from her hands that all conjoined together in a massive area blast and Katara STILL outmaneuvered that fire power.

And I could care less if Katara was running scared the entire fight. Katara could have actually urinated herself and that wouldn't have changed anything, in fact that would only make it worse for Azula's case.

If you have an individual who is that terrified of you and is frantically running all over the place with that much fear consuming their minds, but can still maneuver in such a way that you still can't even singe them with literally all the power in the world, that says a lot. Katara was not solely afraid of Azula (if at all) to the point that you are making it seem because instead of running after Zuko was hit, the FIRST thing she did was go to his aid in spite of Azula being RIGHT THERE and Katara even dodged a closed ranged blast then. So no, even if Katara was running for her life, much of it was because Zuko was only going to live if she saved him and she could only do that if she was alive. THAT was her entire purpose after he went down. If she wanted to attack Azula, she would have done so after she struck Zuko, but she was focused on saving his life, which she did.

Katara outsmarting Azula was impressive regardless of who doesn't agree. As I have explained , Azula wasn't "dumb crazy" because she was still able to scheme and plot, and she was actually the most brilliant minded villain on the series. Katara was just better here.

So no, I don't care what mental health excuses are used for Azula. Katara handed her butt without even killing her. Katara was able to hold back, show restraint, and still put her down while saving both her and Zuko's life. No extreme amount of water, no full moon, no intent to kill, but still a flawless victory. And no, Azula being crazy doesn't take away the fact that, under Sozin's Comet, she was more powerful than we'd ever seen her throughout the whole show. She was bested by Katara and always has been regardless of her mental state. The writers wrote Katara as the better bender, you don't have to agree with it, but that is how it is.

She has dealt with sane Azula, insane Azula, and Sozin's Comet amped Azula all without ANY power boost and fairly easily compared to many other battles. Give her a full moon and an intent to K.O. or kill, any Azula goes down.

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Rijehu

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#48  Edited By Rijehu

@arcus: Here's the thing. You can argue that Azula would have never been "tricked" if she was sane countless times, but the thing is, Katara has beaten even sane Azula without trickery, where Azula hasn't shown herself capable of handling any of Katara's basic level skills in battle.

Even being insane, Azula had more than what it took to end Katara and any other non amped bender. I already told you, being that amped greatly overshadowed any mental issues. You act like Azula was such an idiot that she couldn't aim properly or perform deadly attacks. Katara was outclassing her the entire battle even while running and trying to save Zuko, and she was only running because Azula was still dangerous. Katara just outsmarted her and it wasn't because Azula was completely handicapped either, (even if it was, that would have only been a part of why she lost, since she still should have at least harmed Katara) it was because Katara was the better bender.

And Katara was holding back because she has several disadvantages against her, limited amount of water opposed to the amount needed for extreme situation, no full moon, not performing feats of raw power that she has shown several times, she really had no choice but to hold back even if she didn't want to. Even if she didn't that changes nothing. Azula was doing all she can to kill Katara while Katara was trying to save someone else and she didn't get touched once, ONCE, and you really think Azula was that insane? No, I'm not buying it and you aren't convincing me.

I have given you evidence that even basic level Katara can subdue Azula in any mental state and power level. You argue that a sane Azula with Sozin's Comet wouldn't have been tricked, but that would imply that Katara would only use trickery.

Let's say she did trick Azula. I can easily say, and would be more justified than you due to evidence, that Katara under a full moon wouldn't even have to trick SC sane Azula because she has handled every thing Azula has, Power, Mind, and even her insane antics and has proven superior to all without the full moon. Amped sane Azula is still an Azula that Katara has subdued, with power that Katara has outmaneuvered and outclassed.

Due to past battles, Katara's feats of water even without the full moon (which were already near OP), and now, with the Full Moon and intent to KO or Kill, she wins.

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gunswordfist_

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I think even sozin's comet Azula wins. Thanks to Korra, I no longer think it's impossible for anyone to break out of bloodbending grip. Freaking Mako broke out of it and Amon is probably the strongest bloodbender of all time (I have a theory that his father was stronger but that's for another time). Anyway, full moon is the only time Katara can bloodbend so it's nothing special and Amon in the daytime is more powerful than full moon Katara. While this is Sozin's Comet Azula we are talking about. Yep, I say that Azula wins all 3.

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TheLurker

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All of this debating reminded me why I loved A:TLA so much!