Azula, Ming Hua vs Zaheer, Kuvira

When these Avatar villains do battle, who will win?

Team 1: Azula, Ming Hua

Team 2: Zaheer, Kuvira

Standard gear for all.

Azula is sane

Starting distance is 30 feet.

All are in character. Victory by ko

Round 1:

Fight takes place in the Crystal Catacombs

No flight for Zaheer

Time is perpetual twilight

Round 2:

Fight takes place in Foggy Swamp

Zaheer has flight

Time is perpetual twilight

Which team will win?

@killerwasp@kidphillip@aressword@wbr17@korraspirit@gxrevolution96@jr_avatarexpert@dextersinister@thunderbolt30@nighthunder@metaljimmor@spartankobe@jacthripper@deathhero61@primebonnick@gizmorino@saint_sophie@rijehu@myerlanski@koays@useyourname@stormdriven@justthatkid@hypnosis@pirateking@johnfrank120@mitcheii@deranged_midget@highaccuser@abyssdarkfire@hatemalingsia@arv993@dreadpool10@batking200: @sirneko@loklegends@kingvenus@speedster101@marvelfan1992@martinceld@106me@therapist1

Toughie, I'd say that R1, Team 1 takes it and R2, Team 2 takes it. Flight really changes it up.

course Ming also has much more water round 2

@arcus: I seem to recall her getting electrocuted last time she was in that much water.

Neither Zaheer nor Kuvira have lightning, so...

Team 2.

Both rounds? Any reasons?

@arcus: oops, messed up the line-up

That really changes things though, the extra water can help her keep Zaheer at bay, and she could most likely wreck Kuvira. Azula could most likely keep Zaheer occupied while Ming Hua trashed Kuvira.

So yeah, may have to actually go with team 1 both rounds

Haha yeah, that's ok.

Why do you think she could wreck Kuvira that easily?

@arcus:

Zaheer should beat anyone in 1V1 in the first round. He shouldn't have any trouble dodging Azula's fire and overpowering Ming Hua's water arms. Kuvira VS Azula should be a good matchup, just a matter of who can tag the other first.

In round 2, flying Zaheer will never get tagged imo. As long as Kuvira and Zaheer can knock Azula out, Ming Hua should have trouble bringing Zaheer down to earth.

round 1: i think this could be a stalemate. As benders, I would put these 4 in the same league as each other, and their agility is also pretty evenly matched IMO.

round 2: I think this is a closer match than people are letting on. They are leaning heavily towards team 2 because zaheer has flight but lets not forget the conditions, its a foggy swamp. That means lots of big trees, branches, vines etc that could get in the way of zaheers flight, and its also foggy so he would have to constantly be bending the fog out of his way in order to fly properly, and even then he wont be able to see that far unless he produces huge air blasts that clear large sections of the fog but that would give his position away. Given that however, I still give the edge to team 2 because of zaheers flight, even if it may not be as effective as people are making it out to be, it would still give them a slight edge. Sure ming hua has more water, but she never really showed what she can do with big amounts of water aside from adding more arms which I dont think would give their team the advantage. tl;dr team 2 slightly

well said i agree with this statement as well.

Team 2

btw we definitely need an azula vs ming hua battle thread! Im surprised there isn't one yet haha. the most agile fire bender vs the most agile water bender!

Team 1 because they can just wet them and electrocute them...

Kidding. Although it still hurts me a little to imagine Azula losing another battle for fear she'd go even more off the deep end, I say Team 2 takes both rounds with with alooot of effort

@martinceld: and they're voiced by the same person. I'm surprised that hasn't been done yet @gizmorino: any reasons? @therapist1: why do you think team 2 wins?

@arcus: kuv is a bad b!tch and zaheer is just... zaheer, both are fast

Bump

Azula and Ming Hua shred the second time hard.

Ming Hua is a far more experienced bender than Zaheer and WAY more skilled and agile than Kuvira's ass ever has been.

Zaheer's taken on experienced benders before. What makes Ming Hua better than Kuvira?

True, true. Can you give Azula her sanity and Sozin's Comet to even out Zaheer's flight advantage, please? It's just that, when he goes up against actual masters, like Tenzin, then he's clearly outmatched, as we saw. Remember that Tenzin was an airbending masterunlike Zaheer. Aang was also an airbendingmaster, but he struggled far more against Azula than he ever did against Azula, you know what I mean?

Well, I just feel that Ming Hua was so much more threatening, as Kuvira only ever took out fodder and a severely out of shape Korra, but Ming Hua was so deadly, accurate, and threatening. I won't lie, I am extremelybiased for characters voiced by Grey DeLisle because of the drive that they take me down Memory Lane XD But Kuvira just seems to have nothing special on her, whereas Ming Hua is someone with perfect bending fluidity despite being armless. I think that Ming Hua can take her, because she's taken out Dai Li agents, Desna Eska, and Mako and Bolin with no effort. Without plot device, I believe that she would've killed Mako as well. I honestly may be biased and perhaps debating this out will help us reach a common middle ground :) But I just feel that Ming Hua is so much deadlier, unique with her bending, and more threatening, you know?

@raimundopedrosa:

Aang never really used airbending against Azula for some reason, he generally fought with earthbending

Azula's already sane, I don't think they need Sozin's Comet but I'll see. Kuvira also fought roughly evenly with a healthy Korra, albeit in an advantageous environment

@arcus: I agree that the second fight was roughly even with an edge still going to Korra, BUT only because Korra was holding back and reluctant to kill rather than fighting all out and ferociously like Kuvira was. Not to mention that Korra had just expended a ton of energy fighting the huge robot and then fighting her way through all of Kuvira's security guards AND metal barriers. Hell, even before she started fighting Kuvira, she metalbent that barrier in her way and took out two of Kuvira's security guards. She had to continually do this on her way to Kuvira, while already having expended energy from fighting that titanium robot. So, Korra had expended a LOT of her energy, was clearly only fighting to stop and detain Kuvira, NOT severely injure or kill her, was in a less advantageous environment, and still got in one more hit and had no trouble getting around, whereas Kuvira was walking around like a drunk woman and needed Korra's support to even walk properly.

BUT the point of Kuvira fighting roughly even with Korra under all those conditions is still an extremely good one, and I'll put Kuvira and Ming Hua as evenly matched. I guess that I did underestimate Kuvira. She's very impressive herself.

But please, if you're going to give Zaheer flight, then please give Azula Sozin's Comet. It's only fair, to be honest.

And actually, I'm pretty sure that, in his first two fights with Azula, Aang definitely used primarily air.

@raimundopedrosa: Aang used solely earthbending on the drill and then relied on it again in the catacombs. He's never fought Azula 1 on 1 with strictly airbending.

@juiceboks: Wait, in their first fight at the town in "The Chase," Aang used only air, but he was completely beat and, thus, in no condition to fight. Plus, he wasn't even giving it his all and still held his own relatively well.

But yeah, maybe Azula can't beat Zaheer, to be honest.

I still think that, to be fair, in Round 2, she deserves Sozin's Comet.

Team 1 both rounds. As i allways say in these threads, its risky to mix TLAB and TLOK characters. TLAB vision of bending is much stronger than TLOK. Just remember what Katara could do with water bending, or Pakku. Unalaq looks mediocre compared to that, for example. Or how Zuko, Azula or Iroh could create enormous amounts of flames, whereas Mako or other firebenders in TLOK would use firebending in a more limited way. And theres Toph or Bumi, that are in a complete new level of earth bending compared to anything TLOK has.

Zaheer could stand Korra because she was heavilly poisoned, but remember that Tenzin totally rekt him on 1 vs 1. He just learnt airbending, and even when impressive, he still is no match for real air bending masters. And Kuvira has nothing to do against someone like Toph, and in TLAB each time theres been an Azula vs Toph fight, Toph won exclusivelly because of numbers (Aang, iroh, zuko, etc aiding her), except on the underground bunker. There Azula owned once she got fire bending back. Besides, flight isnt that good against a fire bender that can fight from large distances. And lightning is a very fast and precise attack. I also dont see Kuvira winning against Ming Hua, Kuvira was a good fighter, but was more of an strategist than a real prodigy in bending, and supposedly Ming Hua was one of the strongest benders out there.

@linark:

Mako and Korra have some solid raw power showings too, and ATLA firebenders didn't always use large blasts

Unalaq's showings in his fight with Korra were almost all his own power

Toph and Azula never had an actual fight. During Black Sun, Azula broke out of Toph's trap and ran away. Lightning really isn't that fast when you have to charge it like Azula

Kuvira was recognized as a prodigy by Su, she was able to hold her own against Korra in the finale

@arcus: Yea, ATLA fire benders didnt allways use huge flames, but they could if they wanted. TLOK ones just didnt. It was more like focused fire hits. Mako and Korra were good technically, cause thats what TLOK does better than ATLA, martial animations are awesome. But in terms of raw power, ATLA is a lot more spectacular.

And Unalaq without Harmonic Convergence/Dark Avatar state didnt do nothing too impressive. Lost against Korra twice. Just think of Katara or Pakku as i said. Think what they could do with water. Thats insane comapred to Unalaq, and Unalaq is supposedly one of teh best in TLOK.

Lightning is fast enough to hit people like iroh and Zuko, seeing how benders who are so proficient learn to redirect it instead of dodging it (that goes in favour to my argument about how fast lightning is), the apparent "slow" animation is just a dramatic effect used on a lot of cartoons. Just like when people in DBZ seem to be directing a punch for 5 seconds when its supposedly instant. Wouldnt take that too seriouslly. And still, each time Azula fought Team Avatar, she only lost when overwhelmed, except when she became crazy.

Suyin also said Bolin was a prodigy when he learnt lava bending. And Bolin was just good. And Kuvira held some time against Korra after Korra had been fighting an entire army and a giant robot. And ended loosing. Still, she didnt do anything impressive in terms of raw power. Dude just think about what toph, aang or bumi could do with earthbending.

@linark:

I'll post gifs of Mako and Korra's raw power later

Unalaq lost to Korra once in the AS. The first time he was beating her and Mako while they were firebending. Almost none of his feats in the final fight with Korra were AS

Zuko was fast enough to intercept Azula's lightning. Aang dodged Ozai's lightning and blocked Azula's

Su never called Bolin a prodigy

@arcus: No need, ive seen TLOK too dude. Korra in avatar state ok, but without it? Same with mako, tell me what have they done that can be compared to their ATLA counterparts.

Unalaq lost against Korra in their 1º fight, overwhelmed by her airbending. He was never beating Korra, he stood agaisnt her for some time, then got overwhelmed. Still, he did nothing impressive in that fight. You keep saying feats that are ok in TLOK universe, but that cant be compared to ATLA bending. Aang vs Korra has been done many times. Aang ALLWAYS wins. Allways. Doesnt mean Korra is a bad character, just that TLOK universe has another focus.

Zuko was trained by Iroh to intercept lightning. Still, they trained to INTERCEPT IT and redirect it, not to dodge it. Katara showed good reaction skills during the series and still would have died if it wasnt for Zuko. Remember how fast Zuko was anyway, he could take on several soldiers and benders using only conventional martial arts. Iroh didnt react also to Azulas lightning. And Iroh was one of the strongest characters in ATLA. And Aang is Aang, he basically dodged everything. He was the strongest out there.

Suyin didnt said the exact prodigy word, but said she knew Bolin had it in him. Lava bending was considered very strange and hard. That Bolin had mastered it was impressive. And still Bolin wasnt that impressive.

@linark:

Sorry I'm on my phone, gifs or videos will be provided

If you can run to intercept it, you can run out of the way. Same concept

Zuko was losing to that random earthbender without bending. He got overwhelmed by multiple soldiers

@arcus:

He knew where azula was aiming to, therefor having the advantage. Still, that wasnt Azulas best, she was in psyco mode! But still, a great feat.

Which random earthbender? cant remember that, sorry.

And the same as he got overwhelmed under those circumstances, he was able to do incredible skill feats as the Blue Spirit without bending

@linark:

He didn't know she was going to be aiming for Katara. Lightning is not unavoidable

In Zuko Alone, I can post the fight later

@linark:

@linark: This is just one of many debating websites lol and Aang doesn't always win in the other ones, like Lounge MVC or NarutoForums. Also, the creators said that Korra has surpassed Aang in powerset and ability, so redundant repeating that TLOK benders don't stand up to A:TLAB benders is false. Ghazan was EXTREMELY powerful with his bending, definitely on par with Bumi.

Also, the Avatar is basically one entity and all Avatars have equal potential to master the elements. Korra is definitely one of the most talented benders in both shows, but so is Aang. I personally see them as evenly matched, because all Avatars have an equal potential for powerset and amount of power. Korra's raw power absolutely is on par with Aang's.

@arcus: Haha dude, I agree with you on everything, except one correction of a mistake that I also made :) Suyin didn't call Kuvira a prodigy haha but her protégé.

But yeah, Korra definitely stacks up to Aang in raw power.

People forget that all Avatarsare essentially the same being with equal potential, powerset, and abilities lol...

@raimundopedrosa

I wouldnt exactly say he is as powerful as Bumi. Outside of lava bending, his standard earth bending seemed subpar. He was quickly overwhelmed by the brothers when they ganged up on him, and was having difficulty with Bumi. But I Agree that he is an extremely powerful bender, and could cause Bumi and Toph some problems. Destroying the AT and one shotting the Ba sing sei wall were insane feats.

I personally have Korra and Aang as equals. Aang exceeds Korra in Earth and Air, while she exceeds him in Fire and Water. An argument can be made for either side winning a fight. Thats were I stand

Though Su did not say the exact words, she said that Kuvira was natural and quickly rose through the ranks.

@raimundopedrosa: Where did the creators said Korra surpassed Aang? want to see it.

And still, when has Korra, even on AS form done anything remotedlly similar to Aang vs Ozai? Never. Not even Vaatu vs AS Korra. You keep saying all avatars are the same, but one thing is what we hear, and other what we see. And what we see in TLOK is weaker raw power in every type of bending, except bloodbending. Call it writting PIS, or call it new focus for the series, but it happens. Kids just get angry when they hear their favourite heroe is weaker than someone else, and thats stupid cause that doesnt mean one show is worse than other. So please, dont be that guy.

Also, one thing that people tend to forget is that ATLA is focused in a war used society, while TLOK is focused in a urban progresive society.

Anyway, ATLA vs TLOK bending raw power:

Earth bending:

-ATLA: You see earth benders moving enormous blocks of earth, moving bang sin se's wall, creating rock armors, Toph and Bumi are leagues away from anything TLOK has, even Ghazan (what has he done thats so amazing apart from being able to lava bend compared to ATLA earth benders? nothing really), they can hurl several boulders at the same time, even big ones, and at high speed. That moment when they create a huge barricade using earth bending comes to mind also (when the volacno erupts).

-TLOK: Benders mostly use small rocks, or have to brake the bigger ones, even GHAZAN had to do this on several occasions, and mostly they were throwing one rock at a time. They used covers as ATLA earth benders, but the size and thickness was nothing near to what we see in ATLA. Their only pro is theyve got 2 lavabenders. Cheers for Bumi for being funny.

Fire bending:

-ATLA: This is in my opinion were i see the biggest difference. Mako and Korra use fire in a very precise and technicall way, but in terms of raw power? when have they engulfed something in huge flames? or used their fire bending as an inmense flamethrower? i remember how an angry Zuko could throw flames 4-5 times taller than him in a damn cone. And Zuko wasnt the stronger fire bender.

-TLOK: As i said, fire bending in TLOK is precise, like using a fire whip. Mako's boxing technique was considered amazing, and it was just him hurling small fire bursts to the enemies. Even Zuko seems weaker in TLOK. When he fights Ghazan the writters basically said "fuck ATLA". I guess thats why they tried to prevent showing old ATLAs characters in TLOK fighting to their full extent.

Water bending:

-ATLA: Katara and Pakku didnt just use small currents of water like benders did in TLOK, Pakku vs Katara is a nice example. Seems much more imaginative and diverse than TLOK water bending.

-TLOK: Appart from Korra, Kya vs Zaheer and some Unalaq moves (Unalaq wasnt that impressive most of the time), theres nothing spectacular in terms of water bending without Korra being in the AS.

Air bending:

This one is unfair as TLOK shows mostly untrained air benders, except Tenzin and sons. Still, Aang would piss easy on anything TLOK air bedners would throw.

Im not a TLOK hater, in fact, i really liked it. I think Zaheer is the best Avatar series villain, and Korras animations are 100 tiems better than ATLAs. But still, the overall impression after seeing TLOK was that "the creators decided to tone down bending raw power to focus more on technical martial arts". ATLA is more of an adventure, more mystic and more epic. TLOK is more political, giving more importance to what happens to the world while Korra has to struggle with ehrself and her responsibilities.

P.D: Looked in Lounge MVC and Narutoforum and didnt find anything that says TLOK universe is stronger or at par with ATLA.

@arcus: He still did good without bending against that guy, and even when he was a random earth bender, he was actually pretty good as you can see in the video! thats what i mean when i say ATLA shows better bending in general. Even a random bender can show some very nice bending skills. Just think he is hurling quite siezeable solid rocks at him, and at decent firing rate and speed, you just cant block that with swords, no matter how good your swords are. And once he went serious and bended, he curbstomped that guy.

And Zuko did knew he was aiming for Katara, he actually saw her and thats why he inetrcepted the lightning. Why would he jump into a lightning thats not going to hit him otherwise?

@linark: he didn't dodge at all (for some reason). The earthbender was decent, nothing spectacular

Yeah, he knew once Azula fired, he wasn't ready for that

@linark

And what we see in TLOK is weaker raw power in every type of bending, except bloodbending.

This is pure conjecture

-ATLA: This is in my opinion were i see the biggest difference. Mako and Korra use fire in a very precise and technicall way, but in terms of raw power? when have they engulfed something in huge flames? or used their fire bending as an inmense flamethrower? i remember how an angry Zuko could throw flames 4-5 times taller than him in a damn cone. And Zuko wasnt the stronger fire bender.

Really?

Katara and Pakku didnt just use small currents of water like benders did in TLOK,

You mean these...

Unalaq's Water currents were somewhat bigger and could easily obliterate large earth structures.

Seems much more imaginative and diverse than TLOK water bending.

What in particular about the bending was more imaginative? Katara and Pakku did not appear to be doing anything overly impressive.

Moreover, Unalaq and Pakku use the exact same style of fighting…

TLOK: Appart from Korra, Kya vs Zaheer and some Unalaq moves (Unalaq wasnt that impressive most of the time), theres nothing spectacular in terms of water bending without Korra being in the AS.

Thats funny. Because Korra's best water bending feats have been outside of the avatar state

Lmfao did you not watch the second season during her fight with Unavaatu? Also, we didn't see nearly as much impressiveness from her BECAUSE SHE WAS HOLDING BACK ON PURPOSE! Unlike Aang, she had control over her Avatar State perfectly and would only use it for life or death situations. Hell, she didn't even fight most of her fight with Unalaq using the Avatar State. And LMFAO I AM the one being upset that his favorite character is weaker?

Says the guy who can't accept the fact that Zuko got his ass handed to him fair and square by Ghazan. Now you're saying that all the Avatar characters got weaker? I can't stand Toph as a character, but you can't honestly watch Season 4 of Korra and tell me that Toph has gotten weaker and worse as a bender than how she used to be in the original Avatar series. She is clearly much stronger and more of a master in TLOK than in A:TLAB without a single doubt. Zuko didn't get any weaker, but Zaheer's gang was crazy. ZUKO HIMSELF ADMITTED THAT NO SINGLE BENDER COULD TAKE THESE GUYS ON! The last time that I checked, Zuko is... A SINGLE BENDER! Which means that ZUKO DOESN'T EVEN BELIEVE THAT HE HAS A CHANCE AGAINST ANYONE FROM THE RED LOTUS! If he did, then he would've said something like, "it'll take me, Katara, Toph, and the world's best benders to stop these guys"... but no, there's no way that I'm accepting your "fuck A:TLAB" excuse for Zuko getting whooped fair and square by Ghazan. Sorry.

LMFAO really? Look at any Korra versus Aang threads on those or Red Lotus versus original Team Avatar, and there are many, many arguments for the TLOK characters. I don't believe that you looked there, because many of those threads, especially since Seaosn 3, end in favor of the Korra characters and make extremely convincing arguments for them. It's just Comic Vine that doesn't see Korra as Aang's equal, although, by definition, every Avatar isequal.

2 scenarios.

Azula vs. Kuvira - Metal projectiles restrict Azula's movement.

Ming vs. Zaheer - Damn. I'd go with 50/50, too even.

~~~

Azula vs. Zaheer - Very close, but I'd go with Zaheer barely if he has his staff (since standard gear).

Ming vs. Kuvira - Man this is hard, but I'd have to go with Ming. I think she can create 4 arms with the water provided in the catacombs. Plus it'd be really hard for Kuvira to restrict Mind's movement because water arms! And 4 of them will be hell.

So in the first scenario, Kuvira finishes Azula and come's to Zaheer's aid and win's the battle with him. Team 2 wins..

Second scenario, Ming beats Kuvira and come's to Azula's aid to finish off Zaheer in a close one. Team 1 wins.

I think this also depends on the better tacticians, and Team 2 is consisted of leaders. While Azula was a leader she was impatient and she should not be credible for this.

I'd have to say Team 2 win in a very close battle due to their tactical experience. P.S: This is for Round 1.

Flying zaheer solos round 2.

@arcus1: Funny thing: both Kuvira and Zaheer are known for their fastness while no one can compete on Ming Hua's level.

Ming Hua, in the foggy swamp, could easily take down Zaheer (remember when Appa tried to fly in the foggy swamp? sure he's an enormous beast but still Zaheer will have to be aware of the lianas). The great amount of water gives her limitless source and see what Ming Hua was already able to do with a simple swimming pool against a firebender and an earthbender at the same time. Plus, we all feel like Ming Hua's way to fight with waterbending is extremely dread against airbender (Kya proved how she could take on Zaheer's flying with water tentacles).

Azula could give Kuvira a good fight, she's not Korra after all, she's very confident, she's not poisoned and she's sane. She has the lightning that used to destroy every Toph's rocks (even at night), Kuvira will had to separate from metal to deal with it. Also, Kuvira earthbending is limited to mudbending since every single earth in the swamp is mud. Azula can take this.

Ming and Azula both rounds.

Team 1. Zaheer is the weak link and will only make things harder for Kuvira once Ming-Hua "Tenzin stomps him".

Round 1

Ming Hua vs Kuvira: Even if Ming gets tagged by a metal strip she can still fight back since she can bend without movement, and shes agile enough to avoid them for a long time anyway. Ming 7/10.

Azula vs Zaheer : Without flight Zaheer is really not that impressive. We all saw what happened when he went up against a master. Azula 8/10

Round 2

Ming Hua vs Kuvira: Same thing really, but the environment favours Ming more. Ming 8/10

Zaheer vs Azula: I see this ending in a tie. I still dont think Zaheer is strong enough to take Azula, especially with all the vines impeding flight in the swamp, but he can force a stalemate and dodge her forever. 50/50... until Ming comes and double team him for the win.

Team 1 both rounds.

Alternatively....

Round 1

Ming Hua vs Zaheer: Ming is a better fighter, a more talented bender, and without Zaheers flight she is more agile. Ming 7/10, but it takes her a while considering Zaheer is slippery.

Kuvira vs Azula: Kuvira bobs and weaves Azulas attacks until she sees an opening, attacks the opening with lightning fast precision, and Azula gets tagged once and is ragdolled around until she dies. Kuvira 7/10, but I see this ending faster than Ming vs Zaheer, so Kuvira finishes Azula then cleans up Ming.

Team 2 win

Round 2

Ming Hua vs Zaheer: Zaheer can do nothing even with flight considering the environment. Ming hua goes octopus form then chases the Zaheer down like a spider chasing a fly.

Kuvira vs Azula: If Azula can utilize the environment for cover, long enough to charge up a lighting strike, then she wins, if not, same as round 1. 50/50

Ming beats Zaheer then team 1 tag team Kuvira for the win

TLDR: Zaheer is a weak link, neither of team 2 are that effective against Ming Hua. Team 1 more often than not. With prep I think team 2 stands a better chance as they have 2 talented strategists and tacticians compared to team 1's 1.