Avengers vs. This Team

Thor , Quasar ,Sentry , Ms.Marvel , Iron Man ,Wolverine ,Vision VS.

Apocalypse ,Molecule Man , Onslaught ,Nebulon ,Awesome Andy, Hate Monger ,Hydro-Man

Morals off ,Location - DC Earth ,1 hour prep,Who wins and why?

Onslaught overpowers.

Molecule Man and Onslaught could both solo I believe

A,MM,O,N,AA,HM,HM

@beautifulrevery: Maybe Onslaught but not Molecule Man

@xmenhulk: Team 2, quite easily...

Team 2

Even with Void, Team 2 should stomp this. Mostly thanks to Onslaught's psionic powers. Nebulon by himself should be able to hold Thor.

Thats PIS and well written by Bendis.

1. In the same series MM kills Sentry three times before.

2. Molecule Man was distracted when Sentry got the upper hand

Gallery

3. Earlier in the series it was illuded that Molecule Man wanted to die

So that the conversation Molecule Man is having with being they created, Beyonder, Enchantress and Mephisto there were not the real version but what Molecule Man created.

4. In the same story, Molecule Man was actually fighting the whole Dark Avengers and making a joke out of them.

So even this isnt really a bad feat, then if you look at Molecule Man in the past to see how powerful he really is.

For example have a look at this:

"a feat greatest physicists of three thousand worlds would insist was impossible"

I could try and quote more stuffs, but more importantly here MM fights Beyonder, cause trans-multiversal damange, and easily beats Beyonder

Gallery

Really if Molecule Man is not jobbing you really think he cant even beat this team?

@killemall said:

@randomcharachter said:

@beautifulrevery: Maybe Onslaught but not Molecule Man

Thats PIS and well written by Bendis.

1. In the same series MM kills Sentry three times before.

2. Molecule Man was distracted when Sentry got the upper hand

Gallery

3. Earlier in the series it was illuded that Molecule Man wanted to die

So that the conversation Molecule Man is having with being they created, Beyonder, Enchantress and Mephisto there were not the real version but what Molecule Man created.

4. In the same story, Molecule Man was actually fighting the whole Dark Avengers and making a joke out of them.

So even this isnt really a bad feat, then if you look at Molecule Man in the past to see how powerful he really is.

For example have a look at this:

"a feat greatest physicists of three thousand worlds would insist was impossible"

I could try and quote more stuffs, but more importantly here MM fights Beyonder, cause trans-multiversal damange, and easily beats Beyonder

Gallery

Really if Molecule Man is not jobbing you really think he cant even beat this team?

It isn't PIS, since Void was never defeated by other molecular manipulator. And it doesn't matter if MM was distracted or not. He couldn't finish Void permanently. He was even asking Void how he is doing all these stuff. Void lacked skills, but his control over molecules was easily greater than MM's.

Void finished Reece. Owen couldn't finish Void.

If MM was still that powerfull at the moment, it only makes Void's feat greater...

It is indeed PIS because Void has no claim to being as powerful as a cosmic cube, let alone more powerful than the most powerful cosmic cube being in existence, someone whom Living Tribunal himself called one of the most powerful being in existence.

It does matter to some extent, although thats not a be all and end all thing. There is also the whole point that Molecule Man wanted to die, apart from the whole instance being a mega PIS written by Bendis.

And thats exactly why its a PIS. You are telling me Void has better matter manipulation than most powerful cosmic cube being in existence. Because if thats what you believe, that would put Void at level beyond Galactus and Celestial, while everything in the issue shows otherwise.

So either we are to believe Void is more powerful than a cosmic cube being, or its a crap work from Bendis.

To me its clear as day, its PIS.

Again PIS.

Given their other showing, MM was leagues and bounds more powerful than Void.

Or it just makes the feat PIS given there is no reasonable way Void would be beyond multiversal level and struggle to take down freakin Asgard which is the size of US contient, and he only fought the city of Asgard not even the entire Asgardia, so that lot smaller than city of Asgard.

So either i am to believe a being who just punked the most powerful cosmic cube being in existence couldnt take down the city of Asgard, or i go with the writers established history of it being a massive PIS.

@killemall:

It is indeed PIS because Void has no claim to being as powerful as a cosmic cube, let alone more powerful than the most powerful cosmic cube being in existence, someone whom Living Tribunal himself called one of the most powerful being in existence.

He needs no claim. No one needs in situation like that. Any new character who would fight and win with Galactus would be more powerfull than Galactus. If some character would first time use his powers in certain way, it would just prove what he can really do with them. Magneto never defeated anyone in way he did with Proteus, but we're not saying it was PIS. If Franklin would destroy Multiverse in next comic, no one should have problem with that. If Graviton would affect Destroyer so hard that he would crush him, it would be just a sign of his power, not PIS and not Destroyer's weakness. This is what IMO happened with Wanda in HOM, this is what happened with Emma when Tri-Sentnels attacked Genosha. She never had this power, she has shown it first time, but it isn't PIS.

BTW, from Your post it seems that You don't belive in recton to Beyonder and Molecule Man.

It does matter to some extent, although thats not a be all and end all thing. There is also the whole point that Molecule Man wanted to die, apart from the whole instance being a mega PIS written by Bendis.

It wasn't PIS, Void first time used his powers in this way. He never understood it before that fight. I am not sure why You're fighting so hard against this. MM thought that Reed will come and somehow finish him. He thought that he already finished Void. It was a chalenge for Owen, chalenge that was too great for him.

And thats exactly why its a PIS. You are telling me Void has better matter manipulation than most powerful cosmic cube being in existence. Because if thats what you believe, that would put Void at level beyond Galactus and Celestial, while everything in the issue shows otherwise.

So either we are to believe Void is more powerful than a cosmic cube being, or its a crap work from Bendis.

To me its clear as day, its PIS.

First of all, nothing in the issue says otherwise.

1.I belive in recton and I don't know Post-R MM too much, so it is hard to me, to judge if he is more powerfull than Galactus or Celestials.

2.Void lacks of skills. If You can prove that MM is really above Galan in power, than Void's mm has to be greater than Galan's. Do I belive that Void's offensive capabilities are greater than Galactus? No, I belive that they could be, if Void would learn how to use it. All of it considering that MM is above Galan. I don't belie that this Void can destroy galaxies, but if MM could, then sooner or later Void would reach that level. I would compare it to Graviton and Nova Prime. Nova can take Galactus Rage with his gravimetric powers, but he doesn't have as great control over gravity as Graviton, who doesn't have feats that proves that he can take GR.

So yes, Void has greater control over molecules than MM. If this means that he has it above all others beings in multiverse, then he is above all of them in this area too.

Again PIS.

Given their other showing, MM was leagues and bounds more powerful than Void.

No, it is only Your feeling that Void shouldn't be more powerfull than that. But since Void understood what he can do, no one best him in fight in this area. And I would remind You that Absorbing Man remembered Sentry and used his Cosmic Cube powers to separate Void from Sentry and considering context (as I remember it, I don't have comic in front of me) AM couldn't finish it in other way. And this was before Void's fight with MM.

Or it just makes the feat PIS given there is no reasonable way Void would be beyond multiversal level and struggle to take down freakin Asgard which is the size of US contient, and he only fought the city of Asgard not even the entire Asgardia, so that lot smaller than city of Asgard.

So either i am to believe a being who just punked the most powerful cosmic cube being in existence couldnt take down the city of Asgard, or i go with the writers established history of it being a massive PIS.

1.Where do You get that CC is above multiversal?

2.I never said that this fights makes Void's energy projection or strength greater than usual.

3.To my memory, Void never used molecule manipulation in Siege. It is not in his character. But if his single dark beam can go trough Mjolnir and KO/kill Thor, I would say that it was far from low showing.

You're messing Void's other powers with his molecule manipulation. Void can be taken out by magic and magic always really hurt him, so I don't see a reason why we should belive that Void should stomp all his enemies there. More - there was a special What if? that explained that Void would crush Earth and even kill Watcher if he wouldn't be weakned by Ares' magic.

Bottom top,

no i do not believe Molecule Man was retconned because his bios before and after addresses him as a cosmic cube being.

There is nothing to suggest Molecule Man power or scope was retconned, in fact in the exact same series he had a version of Set, Mephisto, Zarathos, Beyonder, Enchantress and a whole lot of other cosmic beings.

So using your logic, Spiderman is more powerful than FireLord,, Spiderwoman is more powerful than Chthon?

I dont agree, like AT ALL.

It was PIS, because nothing suggest Void power was anywhere close to multiversal level, let alone more powerful than Molecule Man. Had he even been 1/100th as powerful he would have stomped Asgard, norm stone or not, in seconds.

1. A simple logic would say otherwise, a being who LT himself classified as one of the most powerful being in the multiverse, a neo omnipotent being, and has a feat of affecting reality on "trans-multiversal scale" losing to Void makes no sense.

2. Simple as that i do not agree. Molecule Man cause trans-multiversal destruction while fighiting and owing Beyonder, he was also said to be one of the most powerful being in the multiverse, Kubik himself admitted Molecule Man power dwarfs his, the same guy who has held an entire universe in his hand and was about to crush it, the same person who wasnt even scratched by a whole bunch of planets thrown at him, the same person when a portion of his power was being access by Shadow theif , she teleported entire galaxies worth of stars to a pocket dimension.

Serious MM is insanely powerful.

Void being more powerful than him, potential or otherwise, makes little sense.

I am of a simple logic its PIS.

1. You replied to my post, did you not check to scan posted right there of MM and Beyonder causing trans-multiversal damage, across time and space, and MM owing Beyonder??

2. He did against Loki.

3. I have read the what if, you really think that all a cosmic cube can do, take over Asgard and kill watchers? Come on man, let alone the most powerful cosmic cube being in existence.

So...we calling this spite, or what? Thread lock maybe?

@killemall:

Bottom top,

no i do not believe Molecule Man was retconned because his bios before and after addresses him as a cosmic cube being.

There is nothing to suggest Molecule Man power or scope was retconned, in fact in the exact same series he had a version of Set, Mephisto, Zarathos, Beyonder, Enchantress and a whole lot of other cosmic beings.

So using your logic, Spiderman is more powerful than FireLord,, Spiderwoman is more powerful than Chthon?

I dont agree, like AT ALL.

What? Like... What???

Spider-Man beat Firelord and it is PIS, becuase spider-Man doesn't have power to hurt Firelord. Void's limits were never shown. LOL man!

Proemial Gods has no feats (in this level) besides beating Galactus, so they are in Galactus league. Void never even knew that his power is molecular manipulation.

Really bad analogy.

And just because they were affecting whole Multiverse, doesn't mean that they were multiversal level. Odin and Seth also did it, but they aren't multiversal level.

BTW, You didn't answer about my point about diffrences between power level and skills.

It was PIS, because nothing suggest Void power was anywhere close to multiversal level, let alone more powerful than Molecule Man. Had he even been 1/100th as powerful he would have stomped Asgard, norm stone or not, in seconds.

Nothing had to, since Void used this power FIRST TIME wisely.

And it is not in his character to do so whole the time, he better like to use strength and physical atributes. And they aren't as great as his mm. And it does matter if these were Norn Stones, because he shown weakness to magic.

1. A simple logic would say otherwise, a being who LT himself classified as one of the most powerful being in the multiverse, a neo omnipotent being, and has a feat of affecting reality on "trans-multiversal scale" losing to Void makes no sense.

It has, if Void is above him. I don't see a reason to not belive in this.

+ LT called him that, in MM's dreams. Post-R Beyonder isn't above LT, Pre-R B was.

2. Simple as that i do not agree. Molecule Man cause trans-multiversal destruction while fighiting and owing Beyonder, he was also said to be one of the most powerful being in the multiverse, Kubik himself admitted Molecule Man power dwarfs his, the same guy who has held an entire universe in his hand and was about to crush it, the same person who wasnt even scratched by a whole bunch of planets thrown at him, the same person when a portion of his power was being access by Shadow theif , she teleported entire galaxies worth of stars to a pocket dimension.

And? How does it limit Void in any way?

MM's feats doesn't matter here. Void simply won.More feats for MM - bigger power for Void.

1. You replied to my post, did you not check to scan posted right there of MM and Beyonder causing trans-multiversal damage, across time and space, and MM owing Beyonder??

My bad, because I remember that there was nothing that impresive in that fight. And pretty much this point stilll stands. I don't see them destroying a multiverse, but ok it was only a question about their power level. I can belive to You about Kubik (while this actually makes little sense for me, since it puts Cosmic Cubes above Galactus and Celestials, while Kubik himself said that Celestials are more powerfull than him and Galactus is more powerfull than Celestials)

2. He did against Loki.

But he didn't against Ares. And it made him vulnerable.

3. I have read the what if, you really think that all a cosmic cube can do, take over Asgard and kill watchers? Come on man, let alone the most powerful cosmic cube being in existence.

And? It was never meant to be his limit. Point is that only magic can hurt and kill Void. Nothing else ever could, so I belive that we have never seen his limit. Ergo - his limits are his best feats.

You're saying it like magic would first time really mess with powerfull people. Currently Thor's axe harmed Apocalypse and killed a Celestial, just because of some spell.

We don't, since Void could be game changer. Wait.

Wait what?

Void?

What?

I am really confused. The argument looks like it's about whether or not Molecule Man can solo.

(also I didn't even realize Void was on Team 1's roster...is that Vision Vs?)

Last version of Sentry had Void and without morals he is Void. And if Molecule Man is really that good, then it comes down to Void and MM. I tought he isn't, so I putted Onslaught above both and I gived team 2 win here.

Wait...so you both agree that Team 2 would win.

If you want to do Molecule Man vs Void, shouldn't you just do a CAV? That would actually be pretty cool, since this is a nice debate.

@thedarklordpandamonium:

Point is that no morals Sentry is Void, so Void is a part of Team 1.

Okay well yes but you just said you give Team 2 the win, as does the first guy. So arguing whether or not Molecule Man soloes is irrelevant, we can lock this and you guys can do a CAV.

Because I didn't tought that Molecule Man was THAT powerfull when he faced Void. I thought that he was in Silver surfer league. If he is above Onlsaught, then it comes down to Void vs MM.

Wait, so do you think Team 2 would win or not? I mean, you said they would win.

@czarny_samael666: So we wont agree on this, like at all, so lets just leave it.

Few things though, he was said to be most powerful person in the Multiverse, by LT in Fantastic Four Annual 27, what dream are you talking about?

Void or not, I'm still betting on the guy with the power of Franklin Richards plus.

...who is...?

Onslaught.

Okay yeah I brain-farted for a second there.

Obvious mismatch.

Dream mentioned by Kubik, when he told Beyonder and MM that they never chalenged Abstracts.

BTW, which Void's lost battle suggest to You that his potential was ever limitted?

You are talking about the fight on Secret Wars which was referred to as an illusion for Beyonder , and i am talking about Fantastic Four Annual 27, leagues apart mate.

It was pretty clearly thru out the saga that Void was never made to be anywhere close to cosmic cube in terms of power level. The very fact that a bloodlusted Void had problem stomping Asgard is one.

Molecule Man is the most powerful cosmic cube being in existence, so i am to either believe Void was actually just as powerful as him (which to me is utter nonesense) or Void beating him is PIS (written by Bendis make more sense to me).

I am just going towards rational logic there.

Lets just list some feats from Cosmic Cube and Cosmic Cube Beings and why i believe Sentry/ Void beating Molecule Man was PIS and Bendis .

Firstly Kubik power is copied by Super Adaptoid because one of the energies used to create SA was cosmic cube.

Apart from Super Adaptoid claiming he is the master of all reality, and given he is a robot and he doesnt normally lie, look at this statement

"Unless you want to involved all of existence in a war neither of us can win , begon"

So their fight would threaten all of existence.

It could be universe, multiverse or omniverse, but it was at the least multiverse, why..

Because this is what Kubik says the next issue

"The resulting reality war would shed the fabric of all existence, extending into infinite dimension and adjacent universeS."

So that could be from omniversal to multiverse damage, being conservative i am going to say multiversal.

Thats the kind of power Kubik has. What has this got to do with Molecule Man well here:

So when Molecule Man asks if Kubik is willing to fight him he says

"No, that would be the height of futility. Though our power is theoretically equal, your potential dwarfs my own"

Molecule Man is more powerful than Kubik, pretty straight forward, to a point actually fighting him would be "height of futility".

Furthermore when Kubik is fighting Beyonder this happens:

"You and your universe, all of it , a sphere in my hand, a sphere i now crush"

So not only did he held an entire universe in his hand he was about to destroy it.

Then other generic cosmic cube feats.

Korvac with a cosmic cube, re-booted reality 100 times over.

Furthermore, when Dr. Doom stole the power of Galactus, used it to stomp Odin, plus other powers he added to his own which includes: the ultimate machine, the secret helix of Radac and the cosmic control rod, get stomped by Reed Richard with cosmic cube

Gallery

So in short given the power cosmic cube and cosmic cube has shown i think its more prudent to think Void being more powerful than Molecule Man was just horrible writing from Bendis, but if one wants to believe Void was genuinely more powerful than a cosmic cube/ cosmic cube being i suppose that's ok, i just dont.

Get rid of Molecule Man and give team 1 Hulk. That would be more fair.

Onslaught still.

@killemall:

Molecule Man is the most powerful cosmic cube being in existence, so i am to either believe Void was actually just as powerful as him (which to me is utter nonesense) or Void beating him is PIS (written by Bendis make more sense to me).

I am just going towards rational logic there.

No, You're not using logic. You just can't stand a thought that being that didn't understand its own power, would jump on whole different level just by understanding it.

It doesn't matter what You will show with Molecule Man. Void already won. If Void would later lose a battle with other molecular manipulator, like Silver Surfer, because SS's mm would be greater than his own, then one of these battles would PIS. And it would be one between SS and Void, not Void and MM.

It is not logic, when You simply choose to not belive in facts.

Facts? These are facts:

1.Void won with Molecule Man in contest of molecule manipulation

2.Void never fought in battle like that before, because he didn't know that his powers are based on mm.

3.Void didn't struggle against Asgard. He destroyed it.

4.Void is weak against magic and Ares' magic made him very vulnerable. In other reality without this vulnerability it was said that he will kill a Watcher.

PIS is when some writer is makin something impossible. Bendis didn't create any impossilbe story, because it was NEVER shown how Void is doing what he is doing.

In this way, any feat and any battle could be called PIS.

bump

Team 2

Team 2 stomp

Team 2 curve stomps.