Avatar Wan vs The Red Lotus

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TheVivas

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#1  Edited By TheVivas
No Caption Provided

vs

No Caption Provided

-Fight takes place where Aang fought Ozai.

-No comet

-Morals on for each side

-Zaheer can fly

-Start 50 feet apart

-Basic knowledge, no prep

-Wan doesn't start in Avatar state, but can enter it if needed

Who wins and why?

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ssj_god

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if wan enters avatar state, he wins it... otherwise he looses.

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Koays

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Im going with Lotus. Even if Wan enters the avatar state and gets the power up, all Red Lotus have to do is recover from the initial overwhelming attack and get off a single good shot...and with Pli there's a very good chance of that. 5.5-6/10 Lotus

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hatemalingsia

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@ssj_god said:

if wan enters avatar state, he wins it... otherwise he looses.

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NorrinBoltagonPrime21

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Bruh

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Jacthripper

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Wan

He's much more powerful, and he's as agile as all of them, much more durable.

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Z___

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If Wan doesn't go into Avatar state fast enough, he get's seriously curbed.

@koays said:

Im going with Lotus. Even if Wan enters the avatar state and gets the power up, all Red Lotus have to do is recover from the initial overwhelming attack and get off a single good shot...and with Pli there's a very good chance of that. 5.5-6/10 Lotus

And even if he does, I'm going with this. ^

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jasonhawke

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Wan

It's pretty much a fact that the Avatar state is insta-win even if he doesnt start in it, he can instantly do it.

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vinomonster

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Actually Wan cannot bend other elements other than fire if he doesnt go to avatar state with the help of raava.. so Red Lotus got this.

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@vinomonster: once he bonded with Raava he could bend all 4 elements without the Avatar state

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anthp2000

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#13  Edited By anthp2000  Moderator

Any feats that prove he even bests someone like Ming Hua, flight Zaheer, P'Li or Ghanzan without AS? With AS he wins, it's almost unbeatable, but without it he is stomped really really hard.

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Veravin

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#14  Edited By Veravin

Avatar state for the win.. But zaheers flight ability might be a problem.. He'll last but not very long

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stormshadow_x

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I don't think any character other then an Aang in Avatar state could beat the entire Red Lostus Gang.

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Lejon

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Didn't wan have the entire power of shiva before it was weakened.

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Pr0tocol

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#17  Edited By Pr0tocol

@stormshadow_x said:

I don't think any character other then an Aang in Avatar state could beat the entire Red Lostus Gang.

Hes one of the strongest non-amped fire bender we've seen. His fire even without Ravaa was comparable to Sozin Comet enhanced fire benders. He didnt really use the other elements as much, but his control of his nimbus and moving tons of rocks with no movement is very impressive.

I think he'd get caught off guard by P'li, but I think he wins.

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anthp2000

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#18 anthp2000  Moderator

@pr0tocol: Excuse me? When did that happen? His firebending comparable to Sozin's Comet?

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@pr0tocol: Excuse me? When did that happen? His firebending comparable to Sozin's Comet?

When he separated Ravaa and Vaatu, his fire was bigger then a LOT we've seen, sure there are bigger ones like Zuko in the crystal cavern, or Jeong Jeong's ninja trickery, but Wan fully seperated them in one casual blast without really putting any effort into it.

He's also one of the only people we've seen do prolonged fire outside of Sozin's as well, it wasn't even touching him and this was before he actually trained with the dragons, meaning he'd only of gotten significantly stronger like Zuko did.

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anthp2000

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#20 anthp2000  Moderator

@pr0tocol: Nothing THAT impressive. Not even close to comparable to master benders like Ming Hua or other firebenders.

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#21  Edited By PrinceAragorn1

Avatar state wan quite solidly. Without AS, red lotus takes it.

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#22 anthp2000  Moderator

@z___ said:

If Wan doesn't go into Avatar state fast enough, he get's seriously curbed.

@koays said:

Im going with Lotus. Even if Wan enters the avatar state and gets the power up, all Red Lotus have to do is recover from the initial overwhelming attack and get off a single good shot...and with Pli there's a very good chance of that. 5.5-6/10 Lotus

And even if he does, I'm going with this. ^

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Pr0tocol

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#23  Edited By Pr0tocol

@anthp2000 said:

@pr0tocol: Nothing THAT impressive. Not even close to comparable to master benders like Ming Hua or other firebenders.

I didn't say Wan was the most powerful bender, but he does have some of the best raw firebending feats we've seen.

Wan was not a master bender. Yes he trained from a Dragon but that only gets you so far. People like Ozai have centuries worth of history, techniques and training to use, while all that was largely unexplored at the time for Wan. Yes overall people like Ozai, Jeong Jeong, Azula, etc might use fire better then him, but that does not mean he isn't one of the strongest in raw capability.

Ming-Hua uses a different element.

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anthp2000

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#24  Edited By anthp2000  Moderator

@pr0tocol: All I'm saying is that any RL member alone can beat him without AS.

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deactivated-597fe3e7af56f

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@anthp2000: Really? I don't see any RL member except maybe P'li (because of top tier anti fire defenses) beating him.

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#26 anthp2000  Moderator

@mial42 said:

@anthp2000: Really? I don't see any RL member except maybe P'li (because of top tier anti fire defenses) beating him.

I personally rank Ming Hua higher than all of them tbh. Mostly due to her speed, acrobatic abilities, raw destructive water arm power and unpredictable psychic bending.

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deactivated-597fe3e7af56f

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@anthp2000: Wan's speed is better than Ming Hua, or pretty much anyone except Void Zaheer and maybe Aang. His raw firebending power is consistently very good as well. I see his combination of speed, firepower, and durability placing him well above individual RL members (except P'li, because she counters his offense very well and can reach him on his cloud).

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#28 anthp2000  Moderator

@mial42 said:

@anthp2000: Wan's speed is better than Ming Hua, or pretty much anyone except Void Zaheer and maybe Aang. His raw firebending power is consistently very good as well. I see his combination of speed, firepower, and durability placing him well above individual RL members (except P'li, because she counters his offense very well and can reach him on his cloud).

His speed is better than everyone's? Come again? By what measurement?

His firebending raw power (that you do seem to exaggerate a bit) will only get him this far. He lacks defence and versatality.

And you knoew well how I feel about the 4 elements thing, Ming Hua can take him with all of them that's what I'm saying, not just fire.

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deactivated-597fe3e7af56f

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@anthp2000: This is why:

:

This gif portrays him is moving as fast as Vaatu, who can cross mountain ranges in an instant. Even though that's mainly a style choice, his travel speed is quite clearly incredible based on that gif, as he almost instantly travels far above Vaatu's head, which is about the size of the Tree of Time.

Why would I need to exaggerate his power? His blasts are able to cover large portions of Vaatu's body, and even before growing Vaatu was comparable in size to mountains. He's got several feats on the scale that most firebenders (Roku, Sozin, Jeong Jeong, Korra) only reach once. He doesn't need defense when he can dodge almost everything and tank most of what he can't. His lack of versatility does hamper him, which is why people like P'li are able to beat him, but his combination of offense, mobility, and durability still makes him a huge powerhouse.

Ming Hua can't even reach him with all four elements, how's she supposed to beat him?

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anthp2000

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#30 anthp2000  Moderator
@mial42 said:

@anthp2000: This is why:

:

This gif portrays him is moving as fast as Vaatu, who can cross mountain ranges in an instant. Even though that's mainly a style choice, his travel speed is quite clearly incredible based on that gif, as he almost instantly travels far above Vaatu's head, which is about the size of the Tree of Time.

Why would I need to exaggerate his power? His blasts are able to cover large portions of Vaatu's body, and even before growing Vaatu was comparable in size to mountains. He's got several feats on the scale that most firebenders (Roku, Sozin, Jeong Jeong, Korra) only reach once. He doesn't need defense when he can dodge almost everything and tank most of what he can't. His lack of versatility does hamper him, which is why people like P'li are able to beat him, but his combination of offense, mobility, and durability still makes him a huge powerhouse.

Ming Hua can't even reach him with all four elements, how's she supposed to beat him?

The size of the tree of time?????

No Caption Provided

I don't see how he moves as fast as Vaatu, and tbh I don't even recall Vaatu being that fast. When did he cross mountain ranges in seconds and who says he was going full speed here anyway?

No he doesn't.
Yeah he has raw power above the likes of Korra but not even close to Sozin/Jeong Jeong/Roku.

By being the superior bender that's how.

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deactivated-597fe3e7af56f

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@anthp2000: You showed Vaatu coiled up in Wan's elemental sphere... Here's what he looks like right after escaping the Tree of Time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PzgcaRUepA

They're clearly moving at comparable speeds. When Wan separated Vaatu and Raava he instantly moved a huge distance, although it was a single mountain, not a mountain range.

He does. He has at least 3, possible four. Anything covering a large portion of Vaatu/Raava's (pre shrinking) body is on that scale. What makes Jeong Jeong, Sozin, and Roku so much more powerful? They each only have one gigantic feat to their name, and none of those are from the middle of combat (Sozin's was a surprise attack, Jeong Jeong was a fire wall before Zhao arrived, and Roku was just showing off), let alone after taking a major beating.

That's not an answer lol. How will she tag Wan if she can't reach him?

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anthp2000

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#32  Edited By anthp2000  Moderator

@mial42 said:

@anthp2000: You showed Vaatu coiled up in Wan's elemental sphere... Here's what he looks like right after escaping the Tree of Time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PzgcaRUepA

They're clearly moving at comparable speeds. When Wan separated Vaatu and Raava he instantly moved a huge distance, although it was a single mountain, not a mountain range.

He does. He has at least 3, possible four. Anything covering a large portion of Vaatu/Raava's (pre shrinking) body is on that scale. What makes Jeong Jeong, Sozin, and Roku so much more powerful? They each only have one gigantic feat to their name, and none of those are from the middle of combat (Sozin's was a surprise attack, Jeong Jeong was a fire wall before Zhao arrived, and Roku was just showing off), let alone after taking a major beating.

That's not an answer lol. How will she tag Wan if she can't reach him?

Wait. So you're measuring his height with this video? You do realise the distance is so insanely huge with the tree to measure anything. Here's how big he is in comparison to the tree:

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

He's not even 1/4 of the tree.

Elaborate?

Nothing Vattu and Raava size is on that scale or even remotrely comparable. Roku made an enormous building sized blast with a gesture:

No Caption Provided

As for JJ, that's insane:

No Caption Provided

The boats are as big as 20+ human bodies, making the wall's size to be 2.000+ human bodies in size. Vaatu on the other hand, is basically as big as one of these boats, and even then, Wan never covered his body size. All he did was throw some addmitedly big blasts that spread upon conduct.

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deactivated-597fe3e7af56f

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@anthp2000: When Vaatu first enters the spirit world, he looks larger than the Tree of Time, when he's actually farther relative to the camera: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAvK2PmXAoI (0:50)

The point is, Wan's in-combat travel speed is immense, and some of the best in the verse.

Roku and Jeong Jeong each have one feat better than Wan's feats, but they're still comparable in size. Wan's definitely in that league as far as raw power is concerned, and his biggest blast is after taking a severe beating from the spirit of darkness while dying. Jeong Jeong's firewall also took longer to create, and was easily parted by Zhao of all people. Sure, the fire spreads, but since he has a height advantage on almost any opponent, it doesn't really matter.

Still think Ming Hua can beat Wan?

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anthp2000

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#34 anthp2000  Moderator

@mial42 said:

@anthp2000: When Vaatu first enters the spirit world, he looks larger than the Tree of Time, when he's actually farther relative to the camera: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAvK2PmXAoI (0:50)

The point is, Wan's in-combat travel speed is immense, and some of the best in the verse.

Roku and Jeong Jeong each have one feat better than Wan's feats, but they're still comparable in size. Wan's definitely in that league as far as raw power is concerned, and his biggest blast is after taking a severe beating from the spirit of darkness while dying. Jeong Jeong's firewall also took longer to create, and was easily parted by Zhao of all people. Sure, the fire spreads, but since he has a height advantage on almost any opponent, it doesn't really matter.

Still think Ming Hua can beat Wan?

This is very vague imo. We can't tell exactly where he is located comared to the Tree of Time. On the other hand, we've seen how he is both right outside of it and even in it. I don't see how we see that.

Because?

  • lol no, did you see how big that fire wall was? It's far above anything Ozai pulled out with the comet. It's ridiculous. Wan's not on that league.
  • Jeong Jeong has 2 other feats better than Wan's too. That fire wall thing he did when the Gaang met the White Lotus in Bang Sing Se, and that fire thing he did to escape Zhao's guards.
  • JJ effortlesslyy made that fire wall in a second. Wan cannot reach that.
  • Please don't lowball the feat by bringing Zhao up.
  • What does height advantage have to do with sheer size?

Yep.

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deactivated-597fe3e7af56f

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@anthp2000:

When Vaatu was right outside of it (like when he escaped) he looked significantly larger. When Vaatu was significantly farther (when he entered the portal) he looked slightly larger. The only time he looked smaller was when Wan/Korra trapped him in an elemental sphere.

Because the background was showing the speed-line effect (I don't know the word)? Because he was moving at approximately the same speed as Vaatu, who can cross mountains in seconds (just before he fires the blast I posted below, he was speeding away from Vaatu and dodging his hits on his nimbus)?

Jeong Jeong looks like a speck relative to the amount of fire he produced, Wan looks like a slightly larger speck for his. At that scale it's difficult to accurately judge relative size.

Neither of those was better than Wan's.

It took him two seconds, more or less. Wan can shoot fireblasts which can actually do something other than stop some boats on a similar (if smaller) scale immediately.

It's a good raw power feat, but that firewall isn't really a combat applicable move, as Zhao showed.

It means that the all of that spreading out will hit people below him.

Want to CAV Ming Hua vs Wan?

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anthp2000

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#36  Edited By anthp2000  Moderator

@mial42 said:

@anthp2000:

When Vaatu was right outside of it (like when he escaped) he looked significantly larger. When Vaatu was significantly farther (when he entered the portal) he looked slightly larger. The only time he looked smaller was when Wan/Korra trapped him in an elemental sphere.

Because the background was showing the speed-line effect (I don't know the word)? Because he was moving at approximately the same speed as Vaatu, who can cross mountains in seconds (just before he fires the blast I posted below, he was speeding away from Vaatu and dodging his hits on his nimbus)?

Jeong Jeong looks like a speck relative to the amount of fire he produced, Wan looks like a slightly larger speck for his. At that scale it's difficult to accurately judge relative size.

Neither of those was better than Wan's.

It took him two seconds, more or less. Wan can shoot fireblasts which can actually do something other than stop some boats on a similar (if smaller) scale immediately.

It's a good raw power feat, but that firewall isn't really a combat applicable move, as Zhao showed.

It means that the all of that spreading out will hit people below him.

Want to CAV Ming Hua vs Wan?

You found 1 showing of him entering the spirit world in a questionable distance and you call it a day?

I don't remember that happening.

Boats. BOATS. We know the size of those boats. The fire wall JJ created in a second is 1000 vaatus combined.

This certainly is:

No Caption Provided

I would but I'm in too many CaVs already. I want to do it though.

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@anthp2000: Okay. PM me if/when you're ready to do it.

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#38 anthp2000  Moderator
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Without avatar state the red lotus would stomp, but with it wan stomps. We have never really seen a bender overpower an avatars avatar state besides when korra had poison killing her.