AVATAR TEAM TOURNEY - ARCUS vs WBR17

Teams

@arcus: King Bumi, Huu, Ran, Combustion Man, Asami and Tarrlok

@wbr17: Lin, Ming-Hua, Appa, Azula, Mai and Yakone

- In character, Morals on but characters are willing to help their teams and defeat the opponents.

- All characters in their prime (best form in the show).

- Both teams have 1 day prep to create/pick gear, know the battlefield and/or try to modify the battlefield. prep day can start wherever is plausible for your team.

- Characters starts with the gears they are wearing, bringing with them.

- Teams have basic knowledge about each other.

Blood Bending Rules

- At anytime can throw away the aim of your opponent, but only for those that are aiming specifically on the blood bender

- Grapples will last 2 sec maximum to hurt, immobilize, throw. It'll take 5 sec to be able to do it again. You can use in one enemy at time

- You can't KO by blood bending

- Those rules are limited to other players characters only. Do not apply against other characters on the battlefield.

Battlefield

The fight takes place in Roku's Island in a snowing weather.

- Each team start in opposite sides of the island.

- The volcano will erupt in 5 minutes. They can't prep for that.

Victory by KO, Incapacitation, BFR or Death.

A volcano huh? Cool, that'll make things interesting. Is this on the level of Roku's volcano

Well, it's the same island so i think we can consider something similar to that?

@wbr17: So it is, sounds good, I'll try to have something up by tonight

Well for starters lets talk about prep time. Roku's island should be less than a day's journey from Republic City, meaning Asami can bring an airship with tech and weapons like a mecha tank or two (can't hurt to have a spare), and her electric gloves. She can get some jackets and other cold weather gear to help keep her team warm. Meanwhile, Huu will be communing with nature, gathering seaweed and other plants to form his monster. Bumi will shape the battlefield to suit my team's needs. He'll create a large, elevated platform for my team, maybe 5 or so feet high. In the center of that platform he will create a smaller, even higher platform for Combustion Man, allowing him to see everything and attack at range. Asami (in a mecha tank), Huu, and Bumi will be towards the edge of the lower platform where they can directly engage your team. Tarrlok will be between them and and Combustion Man's platform, allowing him to bloodbend at a safe distance and waterbend at your team too. He will have several pots of water as well as several full water pouches. Ran will be in the air circling my team, ready to rain down fire and strike wherever needed.

Now, about how your team stacks up to my team: Your team is very skilled, but so is mine, and in terms of raw power, mine has yours outclassed. Lets look at some matchups:

• Bumi vs Lin: Lin's good, and her metalbending gives her an advantage, but she's not in Bumi's league. He has incredible levels of earthbending power that dwarf anything Lin has ever done. Lin is agile, but Bumi can tag Aang, and in their battle he was just testing him. Metal won't help Lin overcome Bumi's overwhelming power
• Huu vs Ming Hua: Huu doesn't have many feats, but in his one major fight scene he was holding his own against both Aang and Katara. Ming is fast and agile, but so is Aang, and Huu managed to tag him repeatedly. She's a good waterbender, but so is Katara, and Katara's best attacks couldn't put Huu down. If Huu could handle these two master benders together, I don't see Ming Hua offering anything he couldn't manage
• Ran vs Appa: Ran doesn't have many showings, but from what we have seen, I think it's pretty clear he could take Appa. He dwarfs Appa in size, and he's been shown to be able to produce massive amounts of fire that could easily overwhelm Appa.
• Combustion Man vs Azula: With his position on top of the high platform, Combustion Man probably won't be directly engaging anyone. Instead he'll play more of a support role, sniping your team and offering support where needed. We've already seen how Aang, Toph, and Katara were useless against Combustion Man at a distance, and Zuko was just plain useless. Azula's good, but she's not that good. Even her lightning, which would be her best option against Combustion Man, is avoidable. CM's explosions, however, are massive; she'd be hard pressed to avoid them for long. Sure, Zuko blocked one, but it wasn't exactly easy for him. Even if CM doesn't take down Azula, he could keep her pinned down and at bay if he wanted to
• Asami vs Mai: Mai can't hurt Asami in a mecha tank, her projectiles won't penetrate it. Mai could maybe dodge the mecha tank's bolas, but she doesn't really have any agility feats that I can remember
• Tarrlok vs Yakone: As far as we know, Tarrlok mastered Yakone's bloodbending technique, so they should be even in that regard. Tarrlok has shown waterbending skills, while Yakone hasn't. If if came down to a waterbending fight, I'd have to give Tarrlok the edge.

This is just comparing our people, obviously it's not guaranteed to turn into these matchups. But as far as the different categories go, I believe my team is better than yours in just about every category

As for the volcano, I have a dragon, an airship, and the strongest non-Avatar earthbender we've seen. It'd be simple enough for Bumi to erect a few quick walls to block the lava while the rest of the team loads onto the airship. Then when they're set Ran will pick up Bumi and my team will take off. Bumi could bring some boulders with him, Tarrlok would have his water, and we could resume combat in the sky

This isn't as complete as I intended, but it should be a good start. This is gonna be fun, I like the inclusion of the volcano

@arcus: Sorry for bad grammar and typos and all. English isn't my native language.

You just overestimate your team and underestimate mine lol And you are right when you say that my team is skillful and I'll show that they have more skills than yours. We'll see.

Strategy wise

All right, this is a huge factor in this battle and my team outclasses yours here. I want to highlight that Azula is the best strategist in the entire show, as it was shown when she conquered Ba Sing Se, when she defended Fire Nation during Black Sun Invasion, those are the best feats but she has shown much more. Also we have Lin that is the Chief of Republic City Police that means that she is responsible for all police work in the city, that's a lot of things to handle, to plan and coordinate. Finally there is Yakone, the most powerful crimelord in Republic City history, he had to manage the organized crime, later he orchestrated his escape from the city, what he did unnoticed.

I'm defending that my team is capable to come up with a batter battle strategy than yours. Even if I can't bring something spectacular, they can. And we are debating whose team has more chances to win, not which debater can come up with better plan.

Prep time

That might be a surprise because you have Asami but in this scenario my team is more resourceful than yours and it'll be a big deal.

We are in Fire Nation and Azula is the Fire Princess. That mean that I have at my disposal Fire Army/Navy technology. So in one day we can bring 2 Fire Nation airships, Fire Nation cruisers and 1 tank train ("The Chase" ep. it can be carried buy one cruiser). All Fire Nation stuff can be delivered by Fire Nation servants (but with you thinks it's out of rules to use than during prep day I can have only one cruiser, and the other stuffs). In one day they can learn the basic to use tank train, cruiser and the cruiser's trebuchet. The airships and tank train will start on my side, airships are flying but anchored to the ground. The cruisers will be distant enough to not be attack and in range to attack your team in the island and not be considered out of battlefield, and the trebuchet will be ready to fire.

Lin as Chief Police has access to those portable radios so she'll bring some.Lin will distribute some of those radios (Appa saddle, Yakone, Airships, tank train, cruisers). That's a major advantage because give me communication range that my team can use to coordinate efforts while separated if they chose to do it.

Ming-Hua will give some tranquilizer darts to Mai. Appa will wear his armor and carry two water barrels and two metal cable reels that can be easily found.

Of course everyone will use appropriated clothes for the cold weather.

The Confrontation

First thing to do is take down Ran. Your dragon is featless, Appa alone could bring him down. Seriously no one has doubt that Appa is the best animal character, with the best feats in the series. For what we know Appa is an air bender, has speed, agility and battle experience shows to secure that he can out maneuver Ran with easy. My team has a lot of possibilities to take him down: Azula's lightening; Mai tranquilizer darts or regular projectiles that pierce stones; Ming-Hua water tendrils that pierce throw steel with easy; Lin spike bended armor-gauntlet that pierces mech-tank with easy. To make things easier, Lin can use the metal cables attached on Appa to grab Ran and restrain its movement, if used around his mouth he won't use fire either, so after that Appa can drag him high in the sky (Appa dragged a giant beetle while tired and restrained, "Appa's lost days" ep) where Ran will only wait for his death. I know your team won't be sitting there watching but they can't do anything. They don't have the range to reach Appa in the sky, a 5 feet high platform isn't that high, also Appa has experience in fly under heavy attack ("siege on north", "the earth king", "black sun invasion" eps) and my team can block the attacks that he might not dodge with Azula, Lin and Ming-Hua. Mai can attack them from above, her projectiles will force your benders to assume defensive stances and not attack.

Well, my team can all ride on Appa and gang on Ran or they can split, so while some attacks Ran the others will make your team occupied with bombs that will be trow by airship like what happened during invasion on Fire Nation, this would keep you at bay. Whatever they judge that will be better.

After that we're going to break your airship, what Lin has done with easy with Equalists airship. Ow, that can be done as well with you try to use the airship to help the murder in the sky. In that case anyone inside of it will have a big trouble to stay on the battle.

They'll do that so you can't escape them. Like Azula did in the Black Sun invasion, she destroyed the subs but Gaang escape with Appa, and that's a mistake that she won't repeat, that's why we gonna neutralize your escaping ways.

I really don't know how much time that two steps would take, maybe the volcano already started to spill death. But it'll take a while for lava to come, there'll be tremors and smoke before.

I'll stop for now.

tag for votes! looks good! ^^

Oh no problem, don't worry about it

Azula's a very good strategist, but I think you might be overestimating her value here slightly. Her conquest of Ba Sing Se showed impressive political manipulation by being able to take advantage of the Dai Li and the Earth King's trust in Aang and his friends. However, there are no politics for her to manipulate here, no one she can impersonate, no rebellious elite Earthbenders to lead. Her conquest of Ba Sing Se doesn't really apply here. Her defense of the Fire Nation during Black Sun is more relevant, but it's still a different situation. She's not spending months preparing to defend against an invasion, she has a day to prepare to face my team with her own small team. She's a very good strategist, but her best showings of strategy don't apply here. Yes, Lin is the Chief of Police, but what has she actually accomplished. In Season 1, she completely failed to protect the pro-bending arena. In Season 2 she was basically useless and completely blind to Varrick's involvement, even when Mako tried to tell her, and she fell for Varrick's framing of Mako. She was useful in Season 3, but I don't recall her ever doing anything particularly strategic that would help here. Sure, she can run a police department, but that doesn't mean she can come up with an amazing battle plan to beat my team. As for Yakone, he rose to power because of his psychic bloodbending. It's easy to be a crimelord when you can bloodbend anyone who defies you into submission. Sure he escaped, but how is that helpful here? It doesn't show any kind of battle strategy.

Asami's Future Industries tech is far better and more advanced than the Fire Nation's tech. Personally, I think you would have been better going with Republic City police airships and tech, at least it's comparable to Asami's. So, are you planning on having your team be divided among the ships, the tank train, and Appa? Seems like kind of a waste to me, as the tank train and battleship don't pose any serious threat to my team. IIRC, the tank train never did anything combat-wise except transport Azula and co. As for the battleships, I'd like to see any of their projectiles get past Bumi and Combustion Man. If Toph can block their projectiles, then so can Bumi, while Combustion Man can just blow up whatever's coming towards my team. By putting your team in these machines you're greatly limiting their effectiveness, and by dividing them you're just making it easier for me to pick them off.

Asami can get portable radios if she wants too, they're either already in the airships or she could just pick some up. I don't foresee us really needing them, but if you're dividing your team we might decide to split up and take different groups down at the same time

Personally, I don't see those darts as being terribly effective for mid to long range combat in a setting like this, they seem like they'd be much harder for Mai to throw with any sort of power or accuracy over more than a couple feet.

Saying Appa could definitely take Ran just because Ran has limited showings is a bit of a stretch. Sure, Appa's an airbender, but Ran is a firebending master revered by the Sun Warriors, firebenders who know more about firebending than the Fire Nation. He's strong, but he's never shown anything to guarantee that he could take down a dragon as big as Ran. The only thing he's really got going for him is speed and agility, and I'm not convinced that would keep him from being roasted by Ran for long. I'll try to get some good pictures to demonstrate, but Ran is huge, several times bigger than Appa. He's not going to drag him anywhere. Ran will be in the air, but he'll still be in range of the rest of my team so they can help out if he's being attacked. Remember, Combustion Man is even higher than 5 feet. Bumi can launch projectiles, and Tarrlok can bloodbend anyone who might be riding Appa. Appa's agile, but how effective do you think your team's bending will be if he's dodging and weaving around my attacks?

As for defense, my team is more than capable of defending against your attacks and continuing to attack. Huu, for example, can tank tons of damage and continue to attack by throwing boulders or other projectiles Bumi could provide for him. It takes a fair amount of concentrated force to break open a mecha tank, so Asami, like Huu, will be able to take your team's sporadic attacks and continue to attack on her own by launching electric bolas, or she could shield someone else on my team. Bumi could simply form an earth shield, then launch that shield as a projectile. Tarrlok might have a little trouble blocking Lin's attacks, but he can handle the rest, and as we saw when he fought Korra he can shield himself and attack. Combustion Man can blow up incoming attacks, but your team will be too busy dodging his explosions to come close and attack him

If Mai, Lin, Azula, and Ming Hua are all riding Appa, who do you have controlling the ships and catapults? Yakone can't do it by himself. It takes 2-3 people to fire one of the catapults, and you're saying you have 2 ships and a tank train.

Why are you assuming that my team's just going to let her wreck the airship? We'd have it close by, we could see you attacking it and go try to stop you. For that matter, why would Lin go after the airship at all? Your team's going to need everyone to face mine, and there's no logical reason for Lin to go after the airship since she doesn't know about the volcano. Our teams are in this fight to win, no one's going to try to escape. Cutting off escape routes was a logical plan during the invasion, but not here, unless your team knew about the volcano, which they don't.

@killerwasp: Will do. Thanks!

@arcus:

Smart, Deceiver and Adaptable

I just mentioned some cases of Azula's strategy but she has others like tracking Appa, double-crossing Gaang in New Ozai, and the others that and commented above. It shows that she knows when to be hit hard and when to be precise, elusive etc And in Ba Sing Se she orchestrated the assaults on Earth Generals. Sure, Lin had those problems but you can't assume that she fails in her job, Republic City looks like a safe city, also I want to point out that she lead the attack on Equalists underground base that rescued the metal-benders, she was there when the team planned how to deal with Red Lotus on the Air Temple. I just want to be clear that my team is smarter and can deceive yours.

Equipment

Asami never used a portable radio, there is nothing that can prove that future industries produce them and while there is a radio in airships it isn't portable, so if you choose to split your team you won't be able to communicate with each other.

The train tank is fast, protects my team, is capable to run in difficult terrain, has two harpoons with chains and that front that clean its path. It can tank your attacks.

The battleships will be there ready to shoot, my team only need to pull the lever that's all, no need to do anything more. They can active it in seconds.

Future industries airship looks modern but there is nothing that prove they are better than fire nation ones. Can we prove who is faster, more durable? No. The difference here is that fire nation airships are war machines. They have explosives that can be dropped with high explosive power. That's why a choose them.

You underestimate Mai's throwing power. Go back and watch "The Chase" again, Appa is flying on top of threes (pines, I guess), Mai throws her projectiles and they go even higher without sign that they are losing speed. She can throw it really fast and has long range.

Possibilities

What I brought in "Confrontation" is the many possibilities that my team have in this battle, they can choose the best option and change the plan if need to adjust to the scenario. On the other hand, your team only have one plan. I didn't say that they'll be split in each vehicle but they can use some of them if and when needed. I don't control my team, I just analyse them. Just keep in mind that I'm trying to cover a lot of possibilities, not defending one single tactic.

As I said the first goal is to take down Ran and the airship, so you can't escape but also gives me the aerial advantage, after that my team will be able to move freely in the sky, attacking from above. I'll address about Appa vs Ran later, now I want to point out that as soon as Lin touches your airship, it'll be wrecked beyond repair, you won't have time to avoid it. As I mentioned Azula's plan destroyed the invasion escape route but Lin also has wrecked Equalists airships to save air family, and in the battle with Red Lotus, Tonraq released the airship so they couldn't escape. I'm defending that it's a reasonable plan in avatar world.

Now picture that: what would your team do if suddenly there are two airships above them throwing explosives one after another with no time to breath (we saw that in "Invasion pt2" and how bad that went to Huu, also how they destroy earth as well), in conjunction with it there will be flaming projectiles rushing toward them from their flanks, projectiles powerful enough to create a giant hole on Northern Water Tribe walls and crushing metal ships ("the siege of the north"). I honestly don't remember Toph blocking nothing like that. Now you have to prove that your team has enough power to block those combine attacks and attack rate to keep up with that. For this plan work we need Appa, Azula and Mai flying over cruiser and Yakone, Lin, Ming-Hua on airships. One variation of that would be Lin on tank train ride direct to your airship taking advantage of your distraction to destroy your airship.

Now, tell me, can you do that while Yakone blood bend King Bumi and Lin metal bend Combustion Man's metal arm and leg? I pretty sure that once Lin sees CM she'll metal bend him and he'll drop on the floor useless.

Appa: The sky ruler

I'm not just saying that Ran loses because of zero feats but also because Appa is a beast (literally and metaphorically speaking). We can see how durable, strong, smart, powerful and skillful he is in "Appa's lost days". While tired and starving Appa knocked down a swarm of buzzard wasp with a air swipe, also in Si Wong desert he dragged a giant rhinoceros beetle while restrained. An beaten up Appa fought against a Boar-q-pine demonstrating fighting skills, Appa used his hands to throw away his attacker.

In other episodes and comics he has more feats like rushing and knocking down an armadillo bear, later he thrown it into the horizon with a air blast (armadillo bear has the same size of Appa); Appa knocked out Nyla; speedblitzed using head and paws the giant wolf spirit that was tanking attacks from Zuko and Katara with easy; broke two earth wall at the same time with easy; broke walls with his air bending; flew faster than airships; maneuvered under heavy artillery.

Note: Appa weight 10 tons and only flies by air bending. Animals that can fly need to be lighter, less body mass. Ran is huge but he isn't an air bender, so I assume that his body need to be biologically adaptable to fly what make me think that he is lighter than you would expect.

I think that's enough to make clear that Appa would finish Ran. He has feats of strength, speed, intelligence, endurance, fighting skill, bending power. In all series there is no match for Appa in animal kingdom.

To make things worst for you, Appa is wearing his armor that tanked fire blasts like they were nothing.

Appa alone could KO Ran but he is more than capable to carry all my team at once, providing a stable fly without compromising his maneuverability and making possible to my team attack. As I already stated on my first post, the other characters of my team has options to taking him down as well. That's only a matter of how they will choose to do it.

Addressing the point of Ran being close to your team. Appa rushes Ran taking it away from your team while my team attacks yours don't giving them chance to back up Ran.

Other stuffs

Lin Metal bends CM arm and leg, what are you going to do?

Yakone blood bending plus Azula's lightning or Mai weapons or Ming-Hua ice tendrils combo, how do you stop that?

We fight in a rough terrain what make it difficult to Asami ride the Mech Tank, it loses mobility, what'll stop Azula from electrocute her?

Mai's projectiles cuts clean through Huu algae form. Lin's metal cables can do that as well.

@wbr17: I'll address some of your other points later, but before we can go much further you need to clarify where exactly your team is. Because right now you've got them on the battleships, driving the train tank, and piloting the airships. As if that wasn't enough for 5 people to do, you also seem to have all of them riding Appa and attacking my team. Problem is, you can't do all of that at once, and the rules don't allow for outside help.

If you have someone driving the tank train or manning the catapults, they can't attack my team with their bending. They could maybe attack from the airships, but it would require some great effort to bomb my team a much as an entire, fully crewed fleet of airships (which is what you're saying you can do) and bend at my team at the same time.

Sure, you could try having people move to and from the vehicles and the battlefield, but that sounds unnecessarily complicated and only makes you more vulnerable

Unless you have a great explanation I'm not thinking of, you can't do half of what you're claiming to be able to do

@arcus I already said it before, I'm bringing all possibilities that my team can do. I'll not close my chances in only one plan. I'm debating my team chances, I'm not controlling them. So, they can do one thing or another. I never said that they would do everything at he same time or everything at all, just what will suit better for them. Until now i brought those viable plans:

1. airship bombing (Yakone, Lin, Ming-Hua) plus battleship attacks (Appa, Azula, Mai);
2. airship bombing (Yakone, Ming-Hua) plus battleship attacks (Appa, Azula, Mai) plus train tank to reach your airship (Lin);
3. Appa tackling Ran alone plus airship bombing;
4. Appa tacking Ran alone plus airship bombing plus train tank to reach your airship (Lin);
5. Appa tackling Ran with backup (variable) plus airship bombing (Yakone+);
6. all my team riding Appa and engaging Ran;
7. all my team riding on Appa and confronting yours face to face.

There is nothing indicating that it's needed a full crew to make rain bombs, we only see a hatch opening and bombs fall because of gravity. Also, airships can be pilot by one person alone, and can hoover without anyone helps.

The trebuchet in the cruiser will only be used as a distraction tactic to force you to take defense stance with the possibility to knock out your team or at least make them sweat, nobody will stay there, we can go there release fire and leave, it'll be used only one time. So, fly on Appa to get there and to go back immediately.

Plans 1-5 are ways to use my equipment in my favor.

1 - just a storm like attack to make you sweat and possible KO some while my team is safe.

2 - storm like attack to make you sweat and possible KO some while my team is safe and covering my plan to sabotage your airship.

3 - bombard to make you sweat and possible KO some while my team is safe to cover Appa while he finishes Ran.

4 - bombard to make you sweat and possible KO some while my team is safe to cover Appa while he finishes Ran and Lin sabotaging your airship.

5 - bombard to make you sweat and possible KO some while my team is safe to cover Appa while him and the rest of the team finishes Ran.

Plans 6 and 7 are ways to exploit my air dominance

6 - everybody ganging on Ran first than going for airship, later dealing with the rest of your team.

7 - straight up fight.

I guess you were expecting a debate more like what I'm calling plan 7 or 6. I'll get at that later but I want to point out that there are many other ways to my team brings war at you. The most probable scenario is we starts with one of plans 1-5 than goes to plan 7 but can also happens plan 6 followed by plan 7, the least probable is straight up to plan 7.

So I'm challenging you so make your case against my attacks using my machines, later we can debate how the fight would go without that, if your team can survive the first wave.

@wbr17: I've got homework and school occupying my time, so I might not address everything here, but I'll do what I can

First of all, you are your team's strategist. You can't just say "Azula will come up with a strategy that lets me win." But if we're going to do multiple strategies, I can do the same

It should be common sense that tech has improved over time, making Asami's airships better than the Fire Nation's. That's how technology works. However, she's not limited to airships. She also has planes, which as we've seen are very fast and agile, especially when piloted by Asami. If you want to make this an air battle, Asami can play that game too. She could go up in a plane with Combustion Man, allowing CM to blast your airships out of the sky while Asami dodges your attacks. The planes, which are the same ones used by the Equalists, can drop bombs too, and we saw what those bombs did to the United Forces ships. Between these bombs and Combustion Man, we can deal major damage to your ships. Honestly, I'm not sure why we'd need to bother with the ships though. If you want to have people leave the battlefield, leaving the rest of your team alone, go fire a couple shots that Bumi can easily block, and then return, go for it. Seems like a mistake to me, but that's your choice. .

The projectiles are made of earth, it should be common sense that Bumi, the most powerful non-Avatar earthbender we've seen, could bend them as we've seen him bend larger buildings with ease. I forget when exactly Toph blocked a projectile, I'm pretty sure it happened but I will check to see when it was.

We've also seen that Toph and other earthbenders during the invasion are capable of shielding themselves and others from Fire nation bombs. Should the need arise Bumi could easily do the same.

My team could also ride Ran if needed, or they could fight from the airship. You're not the only one with air power.

Look at the size of Ran here. Those tiny specks by their mouths are Aang and Zuko. Appa is maybe a little bigger than his head. What exactly makes you think Appa will be able to overpower Ran? He's never fought anything close to that size. You have no proof that Ran is significantly lighter than he looks, and he'd have to be much lighter to get taken down easily by Appa. Also, Appa will have to get close to Ran to take him down. However, that makes it that much easier for Ran to incinerate him with massive amounts of fire. Sure, Appa's armor can protect him from fire blasts from fodder Fire Nation soldiers. When you can show it protecting him from an amount of fire anything close to what Ran can produe, as shown to the right, then we can talk.

Even so, it's not like Ran will be alone against Appa. Ran's not flying out of range of my team, guys like Tarrlok or Bumi can always help him if needed.

Your tank train seems pretty useless except for defensive purposes. Can it drive when Bumi starts to turn the earth into quicksand, or when Combustion Man starts blasting it with explosions? Even if it can, what's it really going to do for you? Transport Lin? If you want to remove more people from the battle and weaken your team, that's fine.

This'll do for now, it's getting late here and I'm getting tired. Hope everything made sense, I'll address more tomorrow

@arcus Sorry, I was busy. I'll slow down the debate and be more detailed, I think It might be a little chaotic. I don't want to spoil the fun.

I'm not saying that I win because of Azula's plan. I'm just pointing out that my team can outsmart, outthink yours, so it's reasonable to assume that they'll be more efficient than yours and are capable of create those plans and analyse the situation. The multi-plans thing is that they can ride on Appa as soon at it starts and analyse the your position, strategy and work with that information choosing the best plan.

The war machines aren't there to end the game but are major advantage that gives protection and offensive power to my team. They'll at least distract your team and give mine the opportunity to strike.

Now, I'll debate the different strategies that you brought:

The base with a Tower

King Bumi, Asami (mech-tank), Huu, Tarrlok in a 5 feet high platform. CM in a higher platform in the middle. Ran flying near.

If Azula, Mai ride in Appa to the battle cruiser near enough to Azula put the projectiles on fire and Mai release them shooting her multiple arrows the only thing that you can do to spot that is Ran flying. But that would be 3 vs 1 in my favor. If Ming-Hua pilots one airship while Lin and Yakone pilot the other, both flying to your "base" the only thing that you can do is Ran attacks them but he never faced anything like that before, he wouldn't know how to efficiently fight against airships, there is no evidence that his fire can damage iron neither that he is strong enough to that.

By using the portable radios my team can coordinate the attack so in seconds there will be at least 3 flaming projectiles strong enough to destroy Northern Water Tribe wall going in your direction from your side while there will be several explosives dropping from above, explosives that could destroy earth walls and the submarines.

Now you have to say how your team can defend against it. Do they have enough power to do that? They are fast enough to defend against multiple attacks? I want to point out that while the projectiles from cruisers are made of stone, they are thrown with more strength and go faster than any earthbender can do, also they are on fire, if you touch than they'll at least burn you. Also, It's important to mention that Ran is a very big target, can he evade all those attacks?

To make things more challenging while you defend Azula and Mai can get there in time to shoot your team with fire, lightning, arrows, knives etc flying on Appa. Yakone can also bloodbend one of your team holding him for 2 secs, what is enough time to cause a major damage in this scenario. I guess your best defense option in King Bumi, so just for argument sake what would you do if King Bumi is bloodbended?

Airplane

Asami pilots the plane while CM is on the wing shooting.

I'll assume that the rest of your team will be in the same position as above but if not there is no problem because I just want to point out how my team can react to Asami and CM in an airplane.

First of all the airplane won't became faster neither more agile because Asami is piloting it. I't just a regular plane as the others. General Iroh II jump from one plane to another and used his firebend to reach it, Eska and Desna oneshot the plane that Asami was piloting, just pointing out that airplanes aren't untouchable in Avatar world.

For this argument I'll assume that Appa is as fast as an airplane neither of us can bring solid proves that one is faster than the other.

Once Asami and CM are on a plane they'll have a hard time to keep near to other team members because planes take a while to make turns, to maneuver an all so they will be alone at one point and other letting them vulnerable to attacks. Once noticing that my team won't use airships but all are going to ride on Appa. And Appa is way more maneuverable than your plane.

Now there are plenty of ways to defeat you plane:

• Yakone - bloodbend Asami she can't pilot and the plane crashes or bloodbend while CM will shoot changing the direction to the plane exploding it.
• Lin - metalbend the plane, it crashes; metalbend CM arm and leg he loses equilibrium; metalbend the thing that hold CM on the plane he falls; metalbend the cables attached to Appa to reach the plane.
• Azula - lightning and electrocute them; use fire to explode the plane; use fire to block CM explosions.
• Mai - hit them and the plane with her projectiles, one hit on Asami and she dies and the plane crashes.
• Ming-Hua - use hers tendrils that cut through metal and stone with easy to cut the plane or kill your team.
• Appa - rams the plane from beneath and can dodge CM explosions.

Now, the said things above can happen simultaneously with major effect.

You'll probably argue that Ran can back them up, sure, but my team is all together and have enough power/skill to hold Ran while they quickly finish your plane and later they will finish Ran too or vice-versa.

Ran

The picture that you provided shows the combined fire of both dragons, we can't say how big is the fire of Ran alone, neither his destructive power. Ran is a regular dragon that hides from a world that regular dragons are killed by some firebenders alone.

Also I want to say that there are short people that is stronger than people taller than them, also shorter fighters can win against bigger ones. In fights skill is a big deal and Appa has shown a lot of them while Ran never.

Look the size of the wolf spirit that Appa blitzed and knocked down. It was tanking Zuko and Katara attacks.

@wbr17: No problem, I understand. I'll try to get something up today or tomorrow, probably today

I wouldn't be so quick to count my team out so quickly. For someone with so few showings, Combustion Man is clearly pretty smart, managing to track the Gaang down and ambush them three times, including his plan to capture Toph and Katara to lure Aang out. (Granted he was also dumb enough to blow himself up, but Asami will make sure he doesn't do that again). Bumi's a mad genius, both strategic and unpredictable. Asami's an engineer, she might not have the strategic feats of the others, but she knows how to solve problems, and if this becomes a battle of machines being the only one with extensive technological knowledge could be a significant advantage

Toph shielded the Gaang from the airship bombardment during the invasion, no reason to think Bumi couldn't do the same. Huu and Tarrlok could block some stray bombs too, and Combustion Man could maybe even blow them up. I couldn't find a scene showing Toph actually bending the projectiles (which imo Bumi still should be able to do), but, in the first episode of Season 3 of ATLA, Toph blocked a fireship projectile with her own rock. Aang has also destroyed them with just airbending. Between Combustion Man and Bumi, I can handle your airships and battleships.

Azula and Mai won't get there with Appa until after we've blocked the ship's projectiles. Meanwhile, your airships will have to deal with Combustion Man, Ran, and Bumi. Airships are not solid metal, they can be taken down. Aang took down Ozai's airship easily with earthbending (which is inferior to Bumi's) and firebending (which despite being Sozin's enhanced is not the same as Combustion Man and Ran's)

If Yakone wants to bloodbend anyone he'll have to come into range, which means he's also exposed to attacks. Tarrlok is a bloodbender too, he's more than capable of immobilizing anyone on your team and throwing them into Combustion Man's line of sight or into Ran's mouth. He could also protect anyone on my team from being bloodbent. Bumi also has the advantage of being able to face-bend. If Yakone's not completely focused on keeping Bumi completely, totally immobile, Bumi could still manage to bend

Desna and Eska hit the plane after it had already been hit, which was after Asami and dodged dozens of other waterbending projectiles. She's not impossible to hit, but she's harder to hit than any random goon in a plane.

The planes don't take that long to turn, she managed it pretty quickly when attacking the water tribe

You've got a number of ways to take down the plane, and a lot of them could probably work. But my team wouldn't just sit by and let you attack my team as much as you want. If Appa tries to come close, CM will blow him up. Your team will have at least increased difficulty bending efficiently while Appa is busy dodging explosions, rocks, firebreath, and ice. We can lead you down into range of Tarrlok's bloodbending, or we can send Tarrlok up with Ran or Asami to bloodbend your team and/or counter Yakone.

Even on the ground, my team is capable of attacking at range, but if we want to all get airborne we all could between the plane, the airship, and Ran. Bumi can bring some boulders to block attacks and to pummel your team. Huu can entangle your team in vines or waterbend at you, and Tarrlok can bloodbend. Regardless of where my team is, no one will be isolated, and you can't attack any one group on my team without worrying about the rest

True, it's two dragons, but I think we could assume that Ran's fire is approximately half of that, which is still a ton of fire. Yeah, some dragons were killed by firebenders, but we're talking Iroh-level firebenders with legendary skills. While some dragons were killed, clearly Ran wasn't.

I think it's safe to say that Ran has at least some skill, he wouldn't be revered by the Sun Warriors as a master if he didn't know what he was doing with fire

That is a fairly large wolf, do you have any pictures showing it in comparison to Zuko?

@arcus

The base with a tower

Toph shield two explosives that forced her to reinforce her defense, in our case there will be multiple explosives what will demand more of Bumi, his full attention. Huu has shown difficult in dealing with multiple explosives he doesn't have enough agility to keep up with them so he'll eventually explode again. Tarrlok has a pretty bad aim, when he was fighting against Korra he attacked her multiple time to only land two hits and she was in front of him so he'll have a lot of problem to hit those targets. CM also hasn't any feat to prove that he can pick those targets falling in high speed.

Neither of your team has range to attack an airship that high, Aang did it but he was in a very high stone pillar, also King Bumi has never shown the same skill/move that Aang used that time. CM and Ran has never shown to be capable to pass through metal so they won't do anything against the airship either.

CM explosions are way overestimated has I point out before he never destroyed metal, he most impressive show was in his fist attack but people forget that they were fight in a area full of earth pillars that can easily crumble by attacking their base, any minor explosion would bring everything down, it's like Ghazan destroying the Ba Sing Se wall. Every other encounter with CM has not so impressive explosions, you can look again and you'll see that after those explosions we don't see any major alteration on the landscape. In comics he put an explosion inside a train and he keep going without problem. Zuko blocked one explosion and when he explode himself if he was so powerful he would be atomized but he wasn't.

The question is how can you do it all at once. King Bumi can't stop everything by himself. If he create a wall to shield your team he'll block your team view so they can't help.

Yakone can bloodbend looking at them while in the airship. Appa flies really fast so he'll be there while you are dealing with the dropping bombs.

Airplane

Eska and Desna were on the ground when the hit Asami, my team will be flying at the same speed it will be easier to hit your plane.

A plane take wide turns he can't instantly change direction, Asami won't be able to keep flying in a tight circle around your team for long, even more if we consider the volcano mountains that will force her to evade or she'll crash at them. Also, if she managed to do that she and CM won't be in position to attacks because they'll be dizzy with so much fast spins.

My team only need one member to take your plane down. Yakone give a thought and Asami will crush in the mountains. The rest can easily block your team attacks. Appa has experience in fly under heavy fire and it's easiest to say than to hit him. I already shown how CM won't have the chance to attack my team (Yakone or Lin), Tarrlok's bloodbend is nothing in comparison to Yakone, he needs both hands to blood bend if he does that he will fall of the plane, his waterbending will do nothing to Appa and can be blocked by my other members without problem. CM don't have enough power to put down Appa with a single shot, Appa is very durable, even more with his armor on.

Nobody has ever bendend while riding a dragon. So your team won't do that either.

Spirit Wolf

Ran didn't died because he was hided and there is nothing saying that the firebenders that killed dragons was in the same rank as Iroh, also Sun Warriors revered than because they are dragons and make fire there is nothing implying power or skills.

Do you think this fight will end before the volcano erupt? We can talk about what would happen after that and close the debate. What do you think?

@wbr17: I'll make a full reply later. As for the volcano, I think there's a good chance the battle would go for over 5 minutes, so we should probably debate the volcano

Bumi has also shown greater raw power than Toph, and his shields held up to several Sozin's Comet blasts with ease, showing their strength. Huu doesn't need to deal with all of them, but he can help deal with the occasional explosive if needed. Tarrlok was using an AOE attack against Korra. Also, Korra can dodge and block, explosives can't. CM can just create explosions in the air, he doesn't have to actually hit the explosives to knock them away or even detonate them

Aang didn't do a special move, he just launched some rocks. Maybe we can't attack it that high on the ground, but we have a plane, an airship, and a dragon we can use when we see you're coming in the air. Bumi can also raise the ground or launch people into the sky. The airship's not solid metal: a large part of it is a giant balloon. It's also an intricate machine with parts that can be broken and can be easily disabled, as we saw with Aang

CM might not have faced metal, but he continually blasted apart rock. The pillars didn't just crumble, he vaporized them, same with Toph's attack. I haven't seen the comics, but I'm assuming he can control the size of the explosions. In the fight at the air temple, Toph said he was going to blast the temple off the cliff-side. If Toph, who can feel vibrations in the earth and know exactly where earth is and how its connected, says he was going to blast the temple off, he was going to blast the temple off. Now this temple is a masterpiece of architecture, built to be very stable and sturdy, it wouldn't fall off easily. Zuko barely blocked one. We don't know what happened to Combustion Man, for all we know he was vaporized

That's what the airship, plane, and Ran are for. Bumi can also go underground if needed.

Is Yakone's range that good? I don't think there's any proof that he can.

She managed fine when fighting the Water Tribe. If they didn't get dizzy there, I don't see why it'd be a big problem here. Sure, you might be able to take it down, but we'll make you work for it, especially with CM's range and power

Again, does Yakone have the necessary range and accuracy to do that to Asami? The only person who stands a chance at "easily" blocking CM's attacks is Lin via metal, and even then metalbenders have only blocked P'li's explosions-which are weaker than Combustion Man's. Appa can dodge, but constant movement will be more of a problem for your team than mine: CM and Tarrlok are psychic benders, most of your benders need to be able to move, and constant dodging could easily throw off your balance. When has Appa ever tanked at attack as powerful as one of CM's blasts? Tarrlok mastered the same psychic bloodbending technique used by Yakone and Amon, he sometimes uses his hands but that doesn't mean he has to.

Why couldn't anyone on my team bend while on Ran? CM is just as capable of shooting blasts sitting down as he is while standing, same with Tarrlok and Bumi

Spirit Wolf

Ran didn't died because he was hided and there is nothing saying that the firebenders that killed dragons was in the same rank as Iroh, also Sun Warriors revered than because they are dragons and make fire there is nothing implying power or skills.

Do you think this fight will end before the volcano erupt? We can talk about what would happen after that and close the debate. What do you think?

According to Zuko, only the greatest firebenders could hunt dragons, their skills were legendary. Iroh's the only one with the title Dragon, so he's the only comparison we have for the level of firebending needed to face a dragon. I think the Sun Warriors know what it means to be a master of firebending, they wouldn't call the dragons masters just because they were dragons. Obviously not every dragon is revered as a master

Airship

Here is the airship. I can only see metal, am I missing something?

You can see the fight between Tarrlok and Korra again, most of his attacks missed and Korra wasn't doing much, most of them she was stand still.

If CM explode the explosives it can backfire him, it'll create a bigger explosion and bigger and bigger (like a napalm, sort of) that he won't have control, so it has the possibility to explode your team. About Toph claim, he still shot multiple times and the temple did not crumble, maybe he could do it like the wind can level a mountain.

King Bumi blocked just one stream of fire with no concussive force, it's a good feat but not the same case here.

Plane

Asami make turns, dodge and all, that I know. I'm saying that she never flew in a continuous small circles around and around. She needs to do something like that to keep close to your team, if she can't eventually she will fly to a place distant to your team so she can make a wider turn to go back to your base.

To CM shot us down Asami needs to fly in a straight line with no variation of movement, otherwise it'll happen like the time when Zuko dropped on CM, his aim was lost and the explosion went to a complete different direction, the same happened to P'Li when attacked by Kai. So while she flies like take, it'll make easier to my team to take it down.

Appa will be flying at the same speed of the plane so it'll be easier to hit your team than it was to Eska and Desna, way more easy. Also we will have enough range to do all the attacks needed, just one actually.

Ran

We never saw a dragon carrying more than 2 persons at the same time, and we never saw someone bending riding a dragon. So we don't know if carrying more than 2 persons will hinder his flying ability or not.

Tarrlok isn't a psychic bender, he never bended without using his arms. And while King Bumi can bend with his face there is nothing that implies that he can do everything he can with just his face, so we can't assume that he can ride a dragon that high and bring rocks and throw them neither.

Zuko claims

Zuko also said that every Red Lotus member could beat any other bender alone, and them together would destroy the world. We know what happened after that. So I can't believe in everything he says.

@arcus Can we start talk about post eruption battle?

@wbr17: sure, I'll try to get something up tonight or tomorrow, probably tomorrow

@wbr17: I'm doing this on my phone, so sorry if it isn't organized as well

The airships are designed to float, they're like giant balloons. If they were solid metal, they wouldn't float as easily. Ozai's airship also wouldn't have been taken down as easily by Aang. Some of the outer frame is metal, but it's not impenetrable, and an engineer like Asami will know exactly where to strike to bring it down

It was an AOE attack, most of the needles weren't supposed to hit

CM would know not to hurt his own team by detonating the explosives while they were too close. However, he could detonate them on the airship

Actually he blocked several blasts iirc

Asami won't need to fly far away from my team, she was flying in circles around the water tribe base just fine

Combustion Man and P'li missed because their aim was thrown off by surprise. Combustion Man will be expecting Asami to be moving, and your airships are very large targets

If you can hit us, we can hit you

I see no reason why Ran won't be able to carry a few people, smaller dragons can carry a person just fine, and Ran is one of the largest dragon's we've seen (except for Shaw). Just because we've never seen someone bend on a dragon doesn't mean it can't be done. People have bent while riding other animals, this is no different

Tarrlok and Amon both learned Yakone's psychic blood bending technique, this allows them to bend without movement if necessary

Zuko's claim about the Red Lotus's potential is completely different from his statements about the facts of history.

Now, about the eruption. When the eruption starts, Bumi is more than capable of erecting walls and platforms for immediate protection from lava. We have a dragon, an airship, and a plane for flight. Tarrlok and Huu are also capable of helping us escape via water. They could form ice platforms for example and we could escape on them. Even if our airship or plane is broken, Asami is always capable of improvising the wreckage into a more durable boat if needed. Another possibility for us is commandeering one of your battleships. At the very least they would provide another area for our fight to continue if needed

Eruption

My team will be on the air already so no need to rush.

Your airship and plane will be useless against Lin and Azula's lightning. Your plane will only be useful if it's already in the air because you won't have time or room to make him fly. And again I have shown how easy my team can deal with it.

Asami won't have time to improvise anything either. She doesn't have the equipment for that, also the ground is shaking and there is that toxic smoke. She won't have time to think.

Going to water will help for a while but lava goes on water too.

Your best option is Ran. But that drastically hinders your bending skills.

My team still have the airships and our best option, Appa.

Appa can use his air bend to throw the smoke in your team or take Ran out of balance.

While your team still on the ground, Yakone can throw one of them in the lava or in the smoke. This also can be done while they are riding in Ran.

While in the air, King Bumi will be worthless, there will be no rock for him to bend. Asami also is worthless if she is riding Ran. She will only be useful piloting the plane. But I already presented how my team can take her out.

On the other hand, all my team members can fight while riding Appa, none became useless.

Once in the air my team is way more powerful than yours.

@arcus

@wbr17: I'll have a response to this up tonight hopefully. How many more posts do you want to do before we open up for votes?

Unless of course we bring down your airship. Aang could damage it with earthbending, no reason to think Bumi or Combustion Man couldn't either

Lin would have to be close to my airship to metalbend it. Either she's not getting that close, or she's leaving your team to go try to metalbend my airship, leaving you short one member.

She improvised fine when she, Korra, and the earth kingdom people were stranded in the desert. That airship had tools, so Asami's better quality airships would too. Bumi can help with the ground shaking and elevate the ground above the toxic smoke if need be

When Roku's volcano erupted the people seemed safe on the water while he was fighting the volcano

Why would riding Ran drastically hinder my bending skills? Tarrlok and Combustion Man don't even need to move to bend, they can do it just as easily sitting on a dragon as they could standing. Tarrlok mastered Yakone's psychic bloodbending technique. Even when he does move while bloodbending it's just some simple hand movements.

Bumi was able to bend with just his face while suspended in a metal cage above the ground in Omashu. He was able to bend rock up from the ground to break the cage open. If he can do that, I don't see any reason why he couldn't bend from Ran. He could even just earthbend some rock up with him while he was on the ground to have for the fight. Toph was able to create a shield of rocks to protect Appa when they were escaping the Northern Air Temple, showing that this is entirely possible.

Then there's the matter of range. With Combustion Man and Ran, I have the two best ranged attackers in this fight, with Bumi being right up there with them. We are more than capable of holding our own in an aerial fight should it come to that

Assuming Combustion Man and Bumi haven't downed your airships

Appa's airbending might be able to throw Ran out of balance, but there's no proof that it would have a significant effect. If Appa's close enough to airbend at Ran, then Ran's close enough to engulf him in a firebending inferno

Even half of this is more fire than Appa ever tanked with his armor, more than anyone on your team has ever had to deal with. Second image is just a reference showing how small Aang and Zuko are compared to the dragons, and to the fire they produce here.

This is the fire blast Aang used to take down one of Ozai's airship's motors. It certainly seems plausible that Ran could down an airship with a similar blast. Just another possibility. You're not the only one who can take down airships

You're also not the only one with a bloodbender. If Yakone is close enough to bloodbend my team, than Tarrlok can bloodbend your team, or he c an simply counter Yakone's bloodbending

Going back to the fight before the eruption, I believe you had Yakone flying one of the airships. As far as we know, his range isn't good enough for him to bloodbend outside the airship unless it's right next to the cockpit. This means that everyone else on your team who's riding Appa is vulnerable to Tarrlok's bloodbending

When it comes to bloodbending, my team is better suited to counter it than your team. Combustion Man (a psychic bender) and Bumi (a face-bender) could both arguably bend while being bloodbent if the bloodbender wasn't fully concentrated on them. Your team doesn't have anyone who doesn't require physical motion of their arms or legs to bend, so no one on your team is bending while being bloodbent.

So in conclusion:

• You're not guaranteed to have your airships when the volcano erupts. In fact, by bringing them into the fight, you're even less likely to have yours than I am to have mine
• Unless you can show me someone on your team exhibiting better range than Combustion Man, my team has a range advantage in this fight.
• We also have an advantage in raw power that can put your team on the defensive and which will be difficult for you to overcome
• You seem to keep forgetting that I have a bloodbender too, who can counter Yakone or bloodbend the rest of your team.

I was thinking maybe you write up a final post and then we open it up for votes? Seems like now's as good a time as any