Authority vs HP Doomsday

@nick_hero22 said:

Well, when I read the OP and some of the scans that have been posted I gotta go with Dooms still.   If Doomsday is faster than flash (or even comparable), then how does this team even get away from him if he is bloodlusted and starts 50 meters away?  Heck, this was a weaker version than HP when he got this compliment.  I always knew Doomsday was Superman level speed but this is surprising.  If BFR was allowed I'd give them the battle but the conditions certainly don't favor them.  This thread is definitely going to be a tough one to come to some consensus on.  Some people say Dooms is overrated, others say Authority is too untested to take his shots, still leaning towards Dooms slightly because of his track record of success.

@Baltoro said:

@Buckshot said:

@Baltoro: DD never evolved past that defeat (and it was said that he never could even if he'd had the chance). He was rescued from it. Assuming he'd be able to evolve past the end of time (which I don't think he could) he still wouldn't have had the opportunity to do it and be immune to that kind of attack so The Engineer doing it would work.

Yeah, I guess they might be able to send him to the end of time with your plan if the fight swings their way, still would require a lot of coordination and avoiding getting one shotted by him. Dooms isn't going to just stand still and get hit by that time machine weapon she makes without a fight. Also, reviewing the OP does says win is KO or Death only so BFRing him to the end of time would be a disqualification, I guess Dooms takes this under these conditions.

It wouldn't take much to not get one-shotted. Apollo and Jack (in the city) could both take hits from DD (and both are capable of instantly healing even if DD manages to hurt them), Midnighter could avoid his attacks all day long, and The Engineer can take his hits, put up shields, or just avoid the hits. Then there's the added bonus of Doors to keep them just out of DD's reach. If they all go to the end of time it's not really BFR so they could just take the journey with him and watch him die from inside a time-protected bubble created by the engineer. Heck, she could probably just connect her guns to the end of time and blast DD with "entropy rays" and beat him without going anywhere. My first post (again, second page) also suggests why I think The Engineer could win in an adaption war or just bypass DD's automatic evolution, I just went with the time thing because it's been proven to work.

@Baltoro said:

@nick_hero22 said:

Well, when I read the OP and some of the scans that have been posted I gotta go with Dooms still.   If Doomsday is faster than flash (or even comparable), then how does this team even get away from him if he is bloodlusted and starts 50 meters away?  Heck, this was a weaker version than HP when he got this compliment.  I always knew Doomsday was Superman level speed but this is surprising.  If BFR was allowed I'd give them the battle but the conditions certainly don't favor them.  This thread is definitely going to be a tough one to come to some consensus on.  Some people say Dooms is overrated, others say Authority is too untested to take his shots, still leaning towards Dooms slightly because of his track record of success.

Your taking Booster Golds word for DD being fast as the flash I have seen nothing to even put him close to Superman.Booster Gold just can't handle a speed blitz so any speedster seems fast as Flash to him.

@YoungGunna said:

@Baltoro said:

@nick_hero22 said:

Well, when I read the OP and some of the scans that have been posted I gotta go with Dooms still.   If Doomsday is faster than flash (or even comparable), then how does this team even get away from him if he is bloodlusted and starts 50 meters away?  Heck, this was a weaker version than HP when he got this compliment.  I always knew Doomsday was Superman level speed but this is surprising.  If BFR was allowed I'd give them the battle but the conditions certainly don't favor them.  This thread is definitely going to be a tough one to come to some consensus on.  Some people say Dooms is overrated, others say Authority is too untested to take his shots, still leaning towards Dooms slightly because of his track record of success.

Your taking Booster Golds word for DD being fast as the flash I have seen nothing to even put him close to Superman.Booster Gold just can't handle a speed blitz so any speedster seems fast as Flash to him.

How can he fight with Superman and kill him if he isn't in the same speed tier as him?  They were reacting to and landing shots on each other equally in the fight so their speeds were around the same level. 

@Baltoro: You've read the OP but it doesn't seem like you've read my posts even though that's where I directed you after you asked me for a summary. I suggest you do that if you want to talk about DD's speed. As for that scan itself, do you really think that if DD were moving faster than Flash in it Booster Gold would have had time to comment about it, much less be alive after blows from DD coming at him at Flash's speed? Stop and think about that for a second.

Again, it's not BFR if they go with him. BFR is when you send someone away from you. If they all go together it's not BFR. I even provided an alternate to the end of time in my last post and referred you to my other post where I gave yet more options.

Why are the Authority "too untested to take his shots"? Hawksmoor has taken hits from a reality-warping-fanboy's version of Superman and been ok, The Engineer has traded blows with Captain Atom and tanked nukes (and that's without shields of any kind), and Apollo is plenty durable enough to take some hits (he's gotten up after being punched around the world a couple times, he's continued fighting after having the force of 10 hiroshima's blasted in his ears continually for maybe 30 seconds, he's tanked Captain Atom's blasts, he's walked in the core of the sun, he's fought on after being blasted by an absolute zero weapon, he's taken a combined beating from WW and MM, and he's already slugged it out with a Doomsday once and walked away). That's three members of the team that can take DD's hits (and one of them can make dozens of copies of herself and the other two can instantly be back to full power if they get hurt). That's all been said already. It's like you're not reading what I'm writing. Superman once avoided DD's attacks by vibrating himself intangible. The Engineer could duplicate that and solve the whole problem (if it were a problem) of the team not being able to take his hits.

@Baltoro: You've read the OP but it doesn't seem like you've read my posts even though that's where I directed you after you asked me for a summary. I suggest you do that if you want to talk about DD's speed. As for that scan itself, do you really think that if DD were moving faster than Flash in it Booster Gold would have had time to comment about it, much less be alive after blows from DD coming at him at Flash's speed? Stop and think about that for a second.

Again, it's not BFR if they go with him. BFR is when you send someone away from you. If they all go together it's not BFR. I even provided an alternate to the end of time in my last post and referred you to my other post where I gave yet more options.

Why are the Authority "too untested to take his shots"? Hawksmoor has taken hits from a reality-warping-fanboy's version of Superman and been ok, The Engineer has traded blows with Captain Atom and tanked nukes (and that's without shields of any kind), and Apollo is plenty durable enough to take some hits (he's gotten up after being punched around the world a couple times, he's continued fighting after having the force of 10 hiroshima's blasted in his ears continually for maybe 30 seconds, he's tanked Captain Atom's blasts, he's walked in the core of the sun, he's fought on after being blasted by an absolute zero weapon, he's taken a combined beating from WW and MM, and he's already slugged it out with a Doomsday once and walked away). That's three members of the team that can take DD's hits (and one of them can make dozens of copies of herself and the other two can instantly be back to full power if they get hurt). That's all been said already. It's like you're not reading what I'm writing. Superman once avoided DD's attacks by vibrating himself intangible. The Engineer could duplicate that and solve the whole problem (if it were a problem) of the team not being able to take his hits.

@Baltoro said:

That time thing seems to require too many steps and planning to pull off, Doomsday is starting 50meters and bloodlusted. I don't think she can whip up the time weapon, the time protected bubble and other contraptions required that quickly before her friends get put down. I only see Apollo being able to take him on man to man, rest of them are badly outclassed in speed and strength if Dooms is allowed superman or even flash speed here . Doomsday has that classic Occam's razor strategy of an old fashioned beatdown and he usually delivers.

You're simply not reading what's been posted...

@Baltoro said:

How can he fight with Superman and kill him if he isn't in the same speed tier as him? They were reacting to and landing shots on each other equally in the fight so their speeds were around the same level.

Lots of people who aren't nearly as fast as Superman fight him all the time. Superman doesn't always use his speed because it would end fights too quickly. I'm not saying DD isn't fast, but being able to fight Superman doesn't automatically make you as fast as him. In fact, in two later fights (one in HP) Superman's speed is clearly shown to be something that allows him to get ahead of DD. In HP Superman says he's able to hit him because he's going so fast (I said that earlier in the thread) and in a fight after that Superman's speed allows him to be untouchable when DD tries to hurt him.

@Baltoro said:

That time thing seems to require too many steps and planning to pull off, Doomsday is starting 50meters and bloodlusted. I don't think she can whip up the time weapon, the time protected bubble and other contraptions required that quickly before her friends get put down. I only see Apollo being able to take him on man to man, rest of them are badly outclassed in speed and strength if Dooms is allowed superman or even flash speed here . Doomsday has that classic Occam's razor strategy of an old fashioned beatdown and he usually delivers.

You're simply not reading what's been posted...

@Baltoro said:

How can he fight with Superman and kill him if he isn't in the same speed tier as him? They were reacting to and landing shots on each other equally in the fight so their speeds were around the same level.

Lots of people who aren't nearly as fast as Superman fight him all the time. Superman doesn't always use his speed because it would end fights too quickly. I'm not saying DD isn't fast, but being able to fight Superman doesn't automatically make you as fast as him. In fact, in two later fights (one in HP) Superman's speed is clearly shown to be something that allows him to get ahead of DD. In HP Superman says he's able to hit him because he's going so fast (I said that earlier in the thread) and in a fight after that Superman's speed allows him to be untouchable when DD tries to hurt him.

@Baltoro said:

@YoungGunna said:

@Baltoro said:

@nick_hero22 said:

Well, when I read the OP and some of the scans that have been posted I gotta go with Dooms still.   If Doomsday is faster than flash (or even comparable), then how does this team even get away from him if he is bloodlusted and starts 50 meters away?  Heck, this was a weaker version than HP when he got this compliment.  I always knew Doomsday was Superman level speed but this is surprising.  If BFR was allowed I'd give them the battle but the conditions certainly don't favor them.  This thread is definitely going to be a tough one to come to some consensus on.  Some people say Dooms is overrated, others say Authority is too untested to take his shots, still leaning towards Dooms slightly because of his track record of success.

Your taking Booster Golds word for DD being fast as the flash I have seen nothing to even put him close to Superman.Booster Gold just can't handle a speed blitz so any speedster seems fast as Flash to him.

How can he fight with Superman and kill him if he isn't in the same speed tier as him?  They were reacting to and landing shots on each other equally in the fight so their speeds were around the same level. 

Doesn't mean Supes was fighting with his speed although DD is fast that still doesn't put him at Superman level speed and him being as fast as Flash is ridiculous. Show me some DD speed feats that put him in their league of speed i'll believe that.

@Baltoro: You think DD is going to kill them all before they can do anything when there's nothing to show that's true. Your only basis for him having the speed to do anything before they respond is a statement from Booster Gold while he was getting beat up and the fact that DD has fought Superman (even though tons of people have fought Superman without being as fast as him). My basis for DD not having the speed he'd need is that in the comics we're using to define his abilities (HP) he doesn't display that level of speed, numerous human level characters engage him, and Superman uses speed as a weapon against DD and explicitly states that he's doing so and shows that it's effective. You can't show HP DD showing the speed you think he has and that puts a hole in your argument that you can't cover up. What speed feats from HP do you have to support your claims about how fast DD can go through the team unanswered? You also haven't shown that DD can overcome their defensive measures. How does DD beat down Apollo when he's durable enough to take his hits and even if he got severely hurt, he could instantly be back to full strength simply by Dooring to the sun and back? How does DD beat down Jack Hawksmoor when he can wear an entire city (trillions of tons) as armor and even if he got severely hurt he could instantly heal by submerging himself in the city or Dooring to another one and coming back? How does he even hit Hawksmoor (who can alter gravity, teleport through windows, and disappear into the ground, not to mention his normal acrobatics and precog/omniscience in a city) or Midnighter (who sees every attack DD will make before he makes them) when you haven't established his speed? How does he hit any of them when they have Doors? I've asked some questions. Please answer them.

You questioned Angie's speed but she's created something she's never even tried before in five minutes (and she's done time travel already) and like I already said, replaced her lungs with new ones before her teammates could walk a few feet (and while talking about it), makes fully functioning duplicates of herself in between sips of coffee, figured out how to replay someone's short term memory in seconds, made machines to terraform an african plain in seconds, and normally makes things in single panels. Even if she didn't have 82 copies of herself to help out, she could create what she needs to before she got into trouble.

As for your comments about Superman, he's consistently written to overlook his speed. He doesn't always, but he regularly does. It's not because he chooses not to fight at full speed because he doesn't care about the consequences, it's more about writers wanting their fight to last more than a page. Is it easier for you to buy it when I phrase it like this, "Comic creator's want their product to be entertaining because it's a form of entertainment, and making fights knock down drag out affairs is more interesting that someone with super speed solving a problem in one panel"? Supes clearly states that he was given weapons and armor to fight DD by the motherbox. There is no mention of his speed being increased. Even if it were, there are still other examples of DD not demonstrating speed in HP besides when he says that he'd use his speed so DD didn't know what hit him (as he did so).

"DOOMSDAY WILL CRUSH HIS ENEMIES!!!!!!!"

Doomsday.

@TheGoldenOnesaid:

Doomsday.

@Billy Batson

said:

Doomsday

BB