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#1 Edited by Fetts (4080 posts) - - Show Bio

Specimens 48712 and 48000; Day 9

Specimens 48712 (a.k.a. Boba Fett) and 48000 (a.k.a. Hei) handled their opponents quite well. Connor Hawke didn't have a prayer of tagging Boba with that superb jetpack speed and those awesome reflexes. And Fett's air and arsenal superiority proved to be too much for the archer. With a rising flame stalking up behind Yasuri, thus limiting his fighting ability, Hei was able to defeat him in a fantastic close combat fight. Truly we have picked some of the finest mercenaries in the Tree of Universes.

Day 17

Amongst these experiments we have discovered that one of our own was toying with the emotions of these mercenaries. Toying them into the point of homosexuality. His name was Nick. He was a son of a bi-....... He had issues. And we have reversed the homosexual attraction between the two. The two mercenaries were extremely disgusted with each other for several days, but managed to work it over on the seventeenth day.

Day 21

One morning, Hei woke up early and discovered a couple of magnificent beasts sitting in front of the shack. They were two Tumblers from The Nolan Universe.

Hei: Boba!

Boba: What?

Hei: Come out here.

Boba: ...This better be good.

*Boba steps out of the shack

Boba: What the hell are these?

Hei: They're like some type of automobile.

Boba: An auto what?

Hei: It's... Just forget it. Let's see how it work.

Specimens 48969 and 48020; Day 17

Specimens 48969 (a.k.a. Big Boss) and 48020 (a.k.a. Black Panther) were able to pull out a relatively easy victory as well. The combination of the boy known as Red Robin and the Holograph Man (who was mimicking the boy's appearance) brought some slight confusion to the specimen known as Big Boss. But in the end, his cunning enabled him to deduce the real and fake Red Robin; from there he defeated the real Red Robin with relative ease. Specimen 48020 did remarkably well against his foe. Even in his poisoned state, he was fending off Baron Zemo quite nicely. AoA Blink making a late appearance, and teleported the nearby antidote into Black Panther's bloodstream. From there, Black Panther was able to defeat the Baron with relative ease.

Day 22

Big Boss and Black Panther were out in the woods, hunting, on the twenty-second day. Big Boss was still upset over the loss of AoA Blink. He was on his way to give her aid in her battle, and as soon as he got there he had seen her teleported away, alive, back to her universe.

As the two were hunting, both of them felt a slight unease. The two spoke in low voices.

Black Panther: We are not alone out here.

Big Boss: I know.

Black Panther: Yet our stalker has not made his move yet. Perhaps we should find out why?

Big Boss: Perhaps... Take him.

Black Panther twisted around and hurled a couple of energy daggers at a tree branch. They could not see their stalker, but they knew he was there as he made some type of alien grunt as he hit the forest floor. Big Boss approached the creature's relative position with his pistol drawn out.

Big Boss: Show yourself.

The creature uncloaked. He held out a note reading "This is a Predator. Use wisely."

Black Panther: What does it say?

Big Boss: It says we have a new friend. Don't suppo-- *sniffs*

Black Panther: I smell it too.

The trio rushed through the forest with great speed. As they rushed into a clearing, they saw a mansion on fire. Their mansion.

Big Boss: Great.

Day 29

Boba Fett and Hei were driving their tumblers in a large open area, with many trees surrounding the area. They were on the hunt for wild boar, and were doing quite well at that. They had killed ten boar and started to pile them up.

Boba Fett: A job well done.

Hei: Ya.

Boba Fett: I'd say it's time to head back.

Hei: I agree. That's enough hunting for one day.

Boba Fett was surveying the area, when his HUD display picked up three figures moving through the forest.

Boba Fett: You may want to take that back. We have company.

He saw one figure appearing to aim some type of object.

Boba Fett: Get down!

He tackled Hei and they took cover behind the pile of wild boars. Guts and blood bursted as the boar were peppered with bullets.

Big Boss: Drop your weapons! You're outgunned!

Boba Fett (as he's setting his blaster to a higher setting): I beg to differ...

Boba Fett fired a shot at Big Boss. Big Boss dodged it. But Boba half expected that. Which is why he was aiming for the tall, thin tree behind Big Boss, which was now plummeting towards the trio.

Black Panther: Move!

Another battle began.

@nickzambuto @higorm @floopay In the great words of Tom Hardy: Let the games begin!

Tumblers

Boba Fett and Hei (Floopay and myself) get Tumblers. They include all of the weapons, gadgets, and accessories seen in the movies.

Predator

This is an average Unblooded Predator. So don't go on posting feats of Blooded Predators or Smiley or whatever, and expecting this Predator to be just as good.

He is equipped with only a cloaking device, wrist blades, shurikens, and a combi-stick. He is decently skilled, but not very experienced.

HigorM had this perk, but it's obviously shared between the two of you.

Fire

Snap! Your mansion has been burnt to ashes. This means you get none of the perks that came with it. You've had to sleep and eat in the forest for the last week.

Fight takes place in the relative midway point between spot 4 and 23 (at the red circle).

NOTE: As you may or may not have noticed, Floopay has been absent for quite some time. So I might call in somebody else to take his place.

Alright! Let's do this!

#2 Edited by nickzambuto (11423 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm Any chance you're a Predator fan...? Because the perk is pretty useless to me.

#3 Posted by HigorM (3236 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: lol, i´m not a fan but we can work this out, I got it.

let´s make some magic!

#4 Posted by Fetts (4080 posts) - - Show Bio
#5 Posted by HigorM (3236 posts) - - Show Bio
#6 Posted by Fetts (4080 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm Very well! Your funeral ;)

Firstly, I want to point out several advantages that our team has. While they may not necessarily come into play here, I feel as if I should go over them anyways.

One things is that your team will be pretty hard pressed to take out Boba. As @nickzambuto explained to me once, Big Boss has morals and tries to save his enemies. That is going to be a huge problem when facing Boba. Boba's armor has the durability to tank bullets, and his clothing is of a kevlar-like material. So bullets aren't going to take him down. And with Boba's jetpack, it'll be impossible for Big Boss to go H2H on him.

The biggest weapon your team has are Black Panther's energy daggers. I don't know exactly how powerful they are, but they are explosive yes? And if they are, Boba can take the force of an explosion quite nicely, and has jetapck speed to avoid the majority of one. Hei also has these specialized grapple things which have helped him evade powerful explosions before.

The Predator's cloaking is utterly useless in this fight. Boba Fett has powerful infrared scanners and audio filters to boot. Hei has dealt with invisible opponents before through pure tactical awareness. The rest of his weapons are throwing weapons, which would be useless against the reflexes of Boba and Hei. Your Predator's best bet is close combat. Boba Fett does have his jetpack to avoid close combat, but I could honestly make a case for Boba being able to take him in close combat. And Hei would destroy Predator in close combat. Here's a couple videos of his fighting ability:

Speaking of Hei, Hei is a pretty big player in this match. The dude has low-level matter manipulation, and can disable any gun Big Boss carries. Thus decreasing your long-ranged advantage much further. This would prove to be very difficult for your team, as Boba is one of the all-time best street-levelers when it comes to long-ranged advantages. The guy packs a series of explosives, blaster, and other goodies. Your team would be very hard pressed to close the gap.

Our Strategy

Boba Fett and Hei would change their cover from the pile of wild boars to Hei's Tumbler. From there, Boba would take out the remote control for his Tumbler. Meanwhile, Hei would be providing cover fire with his throwing knives.

I know what you're thinking. What remote control? The remote control that Batman used here:

With it, Boba will use it in attempt to ram your team.

Now, I'm going to assume your team would stick together. Big Boss and Black Panther are tactical geniuses, and it's safe to assume that they'd figure that their chances of winning are highest if they stick together.

As this jet-fueled beast is racing towards them, they'd most likely try to outmaneuver it rather than outrun it correct? None of them have the running speed to outrun one of these bad boys, so it's safe to assume they'd try to flip over it, roll out of it's way, something badass like that right? Well that's perfectly fine. Wanna know why? Because Boba's going to fire a mini-concussion missile right at it's rear end, towards that gigantic muffler.

Imagine, a mini-concussion missile with the blast radius of 30 yards (as per Tourney rules), igniting that awesome jet fuel within the Tumbler, causing one hell of an explosion. Your guys would most certainly be dead, or close to it at least. And if some of them are alive, Hei would be able to finish them off with ease.

I didn't bother digging up and posting a lot of feats and videos because I'm kinda lazy at the moment. But if there's anything you guys need me to verify, feel free to ask. I look forward to your response!

#7 Posted by nickzambuto (11423 posts) - - Show Bio

@fetts FYI in regards to Big Boss, he only shows mercy towards the foot soldiers he encounters since they're just regular people doing their jobs and aren't actually evil. Against his enemies though, John can be excessively brutal. Just because he isn't an a$$hole like Boba Fett doesn't mean he won't win by any means necessary.

Another thing worth bringing up is that Hei will not be able to automatically disable every single one of Snake's guns, because he can't conduct through empty space. That's why he uses the wire, as a conductor. And if Hei actually manages to snag one of Snake's guns with the wire, which won't happen since Naked Snake is not a complete dufus, but regardless if Hei does, then he might as well just snatch it away at that point, so the molecular control ability won't really come in handy during this match.

Also I wouldn't say the Predator's cloaking is useless. Yes I understand Hei was able to detect an invisible enemy once before, but honestly, I am sure that an alien warrior from another planet who is trained to be one of the most elite races in the galaxy will be a lot more quiet then some fatass. Boba's visor is a pretty obvious indication that he's equipped with a few extra vision modes, and if Big Boss has the deductive skills to reason that Professor Galvez was really working for the KGB based on just his outfit, then he'll surely be smart enough to send the Predator after Hei instead. As for who comes out the victor of that battle, I really can't say. Hei is clearly very athletic but I feel you're overestimating his actual hand to hand skills. He lost that first fight and only won later with prep and surprise, and he had to be saved when he fought the Frenchmen or else he would have had his heart ripped out. The second clip is really impressive, but I just don't think it's enough to warrant a win over somebody who can literally rip you in half barehanded.

On that note, I don't really see any way for Hei to substantially injure the Predator, so we'll leave it up to @floopay for now.

As this jet-fueled beast is racing towards them, they'd most likely try to outmaneuver it rather than outrun it correct? None of them have the running speed to outrun one of these bad boys, so it's safe to assume they'd try to flip over it, roll out of it's way, something badass like that right?

Darn straight, and just to prove without a shadow of doubt that this is an easily accomplished feat for The Legendary Mercenary, here's Snake diving out the way of the ROCKET FUELED Shagohad as it's speeding towards him at over 300 MPH.

0:50 - 2:05 speed of the Shagohad

4:30 Snake is like whatevs

As for your "blowing up the car" idea, I don't think that would work, simply for the fact that Big Boss and Black Panther can both jump so far!

Here's Big Boss jumping over Peace Walker and into the Mammal Pod, which is an admirable feat of leg strength.

And even if they can't clear the blast radius completely I doubt it's going to injure them too bad any way. Feats of Snake's endurance include:

  • Flying a high-speed drone at altitudes over 30,000 feet wearing only his field uniform, whereas the MiG pilots chasing him had to wear pressurized suits to survive
  • Muffling the liquid nitrogen leaking from Python's suit with his bare hands and no noticeable discomfort
  • Battling and defeating The Fury while the cave they fought in burned from the latter's rocket-fuel laced flamethrower
  • Surviving Zanzibarland's self destruct in his old age
  • Sustaining no damage from falling off the tip of a mountain at a height that was enough to kill a horse on impact, and then re-climbing said mountain again with his bare hands in seconds

And if none of that is enough for you,

Here's Snake standing at ground zero of an ICBM launch without having his atoms scrambled.

All this might seem pretty crazy, but Big Boss's soldier genes have always made him more than peak human.

Anyway after recovering from the explosion, Snake will whip out his only weapon capable of dealing a decent amount of damage to that pesky Mandalorian armor - The Patriot.

Boba Fett can resist explosions and gunfire pretty well, but sustained fire from the Patriot will eat through that armor in no time when it was powerful enough to cause a steel-plated drone to randomly explode.

Call it game mechanics if you want, but here's Old Snake blowing up cars with the gun.

The Patriot has infinite ammo to boot, and with the King of Wakanda as backup, who will undoubtedly have some nifty gadget or weapon to aid in the battle, Boba Fett's precious armor that he relies on so much will be eaten up in no time.

@higorm Tell 'em how it is Higgs.

#8 Edited by HigorM (3236 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: ok mate let me take from here..

Let´s drop some bombs..

Dear @fetts sorry but I don´t think you´re ready for the Panther Boss!

Boba Fett is great and all, possessing all those weapons and gear, skilled space mercenary and bla bla bla, that´s not enough here, especially when it comes to a guy called Black Panther. I can´t see a single one of those weapons being effective against the King T'Challa. The vibranium suit alone will be enough to protect him from all those attacks you mentioned.

Examples of said durability/resistance:

When black panther fought iron fist he took the force of a freight train. Here is the scan to confirm it:

Black panthers vibranium suit also allowed him to take a energy blast from stardust and remain conscious:

Black panther takes some hits from iron man with his vibranium suit. Also the last scan shows him taking a hit from namor:

Note that I don´t even start with the argument that he can dodge them all, the guy is used to dodge bullets, arrows (after it´s fired), catches bones that were thrown with the accuracy of bullseye (he only bothers to react when the bones were inches from his face), is fast enough to catch up to sabretooth (who is super human), takes down Cyclops before he can hit him with a optic blast, out maneuvers the human torch, leaps inside Sue's force field before it closes, also, while unenhanced he manages to jump out of the drivers seat of a car flips and lands on top of the car, when fighting Vlad the impaler who is an enhanced human remarked black panthers reflexes while he was unenhanced, he then free falls after some civilians and catches them both, etc, and so on..

Scans of everything I´ve just said:

In other words, Black Panther can and will dodge the enemy strikes, but even if he got hit, the vibranium suit will be there to save him.

As for the tumbler, Black Panther is skilled, experienced and most important, intelligent enough to figure out an easier way to quickly neutralize the vehicle, since he possess both energy daggers and anti-metal claws, he can just avoid being hit in the last moment while slice the tumbler, something like Morpheus did in Matrix movie.

Or, he can just fire several energy daggers with a single move from distance to destroy the tumblers, something like this:

That works the same for Boba Fett, who won´t be expecting such a devastating weapon comming at him at high speeds.. Also, like you said, Boba is used to tank hits but this time things will be different since the energy daggers aren´t just "explosive", let me explain:

Energy Daggers: energy constructed blades. The wielder has the ability to gauge between power levels, releasing a beam, powerful enough to slice through various structures and foe. This weapon can also be fired as a projectile. Energy daggers are T'Challa's default weapon of choice in armed combat situations.

  • First 2 scans show the energy daggers going intangible to phase through ultrons adamantium body
  • 3rd scan shows energy daggers deadening nerves of a skrull with reeds powers
  • Next one shows kasper cole swarming his energy daggers
  • Next one shows energy daggers can conduct with metal
  • Next shows energy daggers can bind people with a setting which kimoyo card can track
  • Next energy daggers cut through steal like government cheese.
  • Energy daggers being fired from the wrists
  • Black panthers energy daggers can shut iron mans force fields down
  • More cutting through force fields.

So what that means after all? That means Black Panther can either dodge or take hits from the enemy and still stand while the enemy can´t take hits since Boba Fett´s armor can´t prevent him from the almighty energy daggers.

In top of that, as far as I remember, Black Panther gear includes the cloaking device and teleporter, so tell me how Boba Fett will deal with a invisible teleporter as skilled as T'Challa who already possess superhuman speed of his own? Imagine the combinations he can make using those devices with the energy daggers..

Prep/Tactics

Just a quick example of a direct confront between two prep masters: T'Challa and Tony Stark..

Both had prep on the other...Doesn't end well for Tony.

In short, your team just doesn´t have what it takes to bring Black Panther down, let alone with Big Boss helping him, so that´s why:

PANTHER BOSS TEAM TRIUMPHS!

#9 Edited by Fetts (4080 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Edited by Dextersinister (5063 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: He wouldn't have the vibranium suit, it's way past the durability limit.

#11 Posted by nickzambuto (11423 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: He wouldn't have the vibranium suit, it's way past the durability limit.

T'Challa fits the limit, his suit is gear and falls under another category.

#12 Posted by HigorM (3236 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister said:

@higorm: He wouldn't have the vibranium suit, it's way past the durability limit.

T'Challa fits the limit, his suit is gear and falls under another category.

Exactly..

#13 Posted by Dextersinister (5063 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister said:

@higorm: He wouldn't have the vibranium suit, it's way past the durability limit.

T'Challa fits the limit, his suit is gear and falls under another category.

No it doesn't

No durability above Pre-52 Deathstroke's (w/ Promethium Body Armor) level

This armour isn't even bullet proof just bullet resistant, guns at close range can dent or tear, so what has been shown is way above the limit.

#14 Posted by HigorM (3236 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: Doesn´t matter what you think or not, especially at this point, if @fetts was okay with that from the beginning including now that he himself is facing my team and consequently Black Panther I don´t see/understand how, what or where do you wanna get here pestering us with your useless statements. Also taking into consideration that you could have said that from the start as well but rather prefer to drop it now, why now? Go take care of your own fight and let the big dogs fight in peace..

#15 Posted by Dextersinister (5063 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: I was hoping for a mature reply but I got this

When a piece of equipment is clearly over the rules then it's removed, do you think maybe Fetts didn't say anything because he hasn't had a chance to read about it or that 99% of the time pointing out that someone is over the limit they get grief like this.

Black Panther I don´t see/understand how, what or where do you wanna get here informing us with your valid statements.

I didn't realize it was a bad thing to point out that someone has an unreasonable advantage against another opponent because they broke the rules in a tournament you are participating in.

Also taking into consideration that you could have said that from the start as well but rather prefer to drop it now, why now?

Your assuming me and Fetts read every fight, I simply assumed you had a bit of common sense and wouldn't use Black Panther equipment way over the limit so didn't know about it until now.

So enough with the cheek and follow the f*cking rules that your suppose to

#16 Edited by Fetts (4080 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm said:

@dextersinister: Doesn´t matter what you think or not, especially at this point, if @fetts was okay with that from the beginning including now that he himself is facing my team and consequently Black Panther I don´t see/understand how, what or where do you wanna get here pestering us with your useless statements. Also taking into consideration that you could have said that from the start as well but rather prefer to drop it now, why now? Go take care of your own fight and let the big dogs fight in peace..

This was an issue I was going to address in my counter. @dextersinister is right. I don't have time to go into a detailed research about every single character. Especially in a huge tournament like this was. As usual, people somehow manage to sneak characters above the limit. That's why I made this rule as a precaution:

-Anybody who somehow managed to get a character that is above the limits, will be reduced to the limits provided in whatever way they surpass the limits.

So no, Black Panther's vibranium suit won't be taken away. But its level of durability is lowered to the Promethium armor's level.

@dextersinister In all fairness, those were Deadshot's high-powered gauntlets at point blank range. I wouldn't quite say that it's unimpressive. And that Promethium armor has tanked bullets before.

#17 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4066 posts) - - Show Bio

@fetts:

Connor Hawke didn't have a prayer of tagging Boba with that superb jetpack speed and those awesome reflexes. And Fett's air and arsenal superiority proved to be too much for the archer.

Yada Yada Yada.

#18 Posted by Fetts (4080 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Connor's good in his own right don't get me wrong. Just not as good as Boba ;)

#19 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4066 posts) - - Show Bio

@fetts said:

@the_red_viper: Connor's good in his own right don't get me wrong. Just not as good as Boba ;)

I'll admit that a main reason of us losing the last round is me debating like sh!t. Lol =P

#20 Edited by HigorM (3236 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister:

When a piece of equipment is clearly over the rules then it's removed, do you think maybe Fetts didn't say anything because he hasn't had a chance to read about it or that 99% of the time pointing out that someone is over the limit they get grief like this.

No it´s not removed, it will be reduced to the limits provided.. which is fine because it won´t matter anyway.

I didn't realize it was a bad thing to point out that someone has an unreasonable advantage against another opponent because they broke the rules in a tournament you are participating in.

I didn´t break any rules or otherwise @fetts would have said it sooner or later, like he said, he was about to say it anyway until you came here, so as the tourney creator he was going to estabilish the limits and we would proceed the fight without any problem. So no, no one here possess an unreasonable advantage, I don´t need that to win a fight, never did..

When a piece of equipment is clearly over the rules then it's removed, do you think maybe Fetts didn't say anything because he hasn't had a chance to read about it or that 99% of the time pointing out that someone is over the limit they get grief like this.

I don´t assume you read anything, I never asked for your assistance or anything.. I´ve assumed that @fetts was okay with the whole think since this is the 3rd fight I´ve been using the character and If it happens to not be ok then he would tell me and it will be fine, he is an experienced member here and I trust his judgement.

So enough with the cheek and follow the f*cking rules that your suppose to

I´ve been following the rules since the first tourney I´ve been to. You don´t need to make a big deal about it and start using those words, don´t want to flag you about that, control yourself please, this is just a game.

#21 Edited by Dextersinister (5063 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

No it´s not removed, it will be reduced to the limits provided.. which is fine because it won´t matter anyway.

Same difference, it's effectively not the same item

I didn´t break any rules or otherwise @fetts would have said it sooner or later, like he said, he was about to say it anyway until you came here, so as the tourney creator he was going to estabilish the limits and we would proceed the fight without any problem. So no, no one here possess an unreasonable advantage, I don´t need that to win a fight, never did..

You where clearly over the limits, you broke the rules and you where perfectly willing to continue even when someone points them out, Fetts didn't need to establish the limits when they clearly written out.

I don´t assume you read anything, I never asked for your assistance or anything

I know you didn't, I wasn't assisting you I was assisting Fetts and just ensuring I wouldn't have to deal with this rubbish down the line

I´ve been following the rules since the first tourney I´ve been to.

Not from what I can see.

My one use of bad language to emphasis the obvious may have been harsh but your attitude was pretty hostile against who was simply pointing out the limits.

@fetts And that Promethium armor has tanked bullets before.

At range but at very close range he has even been wounded when shot in the chest even when wearing the updated suit which is why he normally dodges bullets.

#22 Posted by Fetts (4080 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Nah. You actually put up a better fight than I thought you would.

@higorm As I understand it, @dextersinister was merely pointing out a rule. I see no reason why either of you should be jumping down each other's throats about it. And I for one vote that you two drop it, as it's not going to accomplish anything.

If you absolutely feel like you have to argue about it, do it via PM please. No reason to clutter this debate with an off-topic debate.

#23 Edited by HigorM (3236 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister:

Like I said before I don´t care about you or what you have to say, my opponent here is @fetts

so I only expect him to counter my arguments because frankly, I´m sure he doesnt need an assistance as well. But feel free to point and interfere in this battle all you want but from now on you will be ignored. I kind of understand why you´re doing all this, seeing the possibility of facing my team you wanted to step in, that´s called fear. Sorry but you´ll have to wait and also, you have to deal with your own fight first.

One last thing, your use of bad language only shows you can´t handle a discussion without resort to such artifice, next time you´ll be flagged.

Now can you please step out and let the big dogs play?

@fetts sorry man I just wanted to make things clear, I don´t like saying outsiders stepping in another´s fight especially when they have interest in the outcome, I promisse it won´t ever happen again..

Also, we´re waiting for your counter :)

#24 Posted by Fetts (4080 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Bro, I think you're being a little harsh. True, I don't need assistance. But he's not really interfering with the debate. He's just pointing out a rule. It's something I actually encourage people to do so people don't get away with stuff they shouldn't. And while I myself didn't need him to point that out because I already knew, it seems he didn't know that I knew. At least that's my guess.

Also, you're jumping to conclusions without conclusive evidence. @dextersinister doesn't strike me as one to get afraid over CV debates. And telling him that's he's just scared, and then essentially telling him that you can say whatever you want, I'm just going to be ignorant of whatever you have to say about it... And then telling him that he's a noob when he really hasn't done much to show it... No offense but I don't think that's a very mature thing to do bro. I actually think that falls under the line of bullying, which is something that I'm not going to tolerate.

And I apologize for not getting on this. This week was PSATs for us, and I also have book report due Tuesday that I even started. And I'm helping out at this fall-fair-type thing. So ya, it's been hectic for me. But I think I'll be able to fit in a counter soon enough.

#25 Posted by HigorM (3236 posts) - - Show Bio

@fetts: that´s fine by me, like I said I don´t care about all that crap, never did, never will. We´re mature enough to handle this kind of situations for ourselves. That´s all, but I apologize if I´ve crossed the limits, I really do..

I will wait for your counter, this is my chance to tie our fight record.. :)

#26 Posted by nickzambuto (11423 posts) - - Show Bio
#27 Posted by Floopay (7700 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: @fetts: @nickzambuto:

Gonna copy/paste feats (easier), and then elaborate on the advantages I see so far.

Hei (Darker than Black)

The Black Reaper

Peak Human - Hei is at peak human physical condition, and possibly even slightly above.

Speed - Speed is one of Hei's greatest assets, allowing him to dodge bullets with ease, and outpacing other peak humans.

Agility/Acrobatics - Hei can contort his body in seemingly impossible maneuvers in order to gain an advantage over his opponents. He doesn't always rely on his acrobatics to defeat his opponents, but has shown that it can be a key tool towards his victory.

Superb Marksman - Hei can easily hit an opponent between the eyes while falling/suspended in air from over 20+ meters away with no problem, and simultaneously grapple a rail with the same maneuver.

Master Martial Artist - Hei has been disposing of Super Humans for several years, earning him the title the "Black Reaper". There have been little to no other contractors who can match Hei's level of skill.

Electric Manipulation / Molecular Manipulation - Hei has the ability to generate incredible amounts of electricity, which he often uses to kill his opponents in both ranged and melee combat. He cannot conjure bolts of electricity, but he can send his attacks across any conductive medium. Additionally, Hei can manipulate matter on a quantum level to a very lesser degree. When receiving an incredible amplification to his power, he was able to destroy a large portion of South America. However, at standard levels (as he is here), he has so far only used it to cause a trigger device in a handgun to malfunction. So, again, it's very minor.

Standard Equipment:

Mask - Hei wears a protective mask to protect his face and his identity. He usually has several, but only keeps one on his person.

Wire - Hei carries a wire on him that he uses both offensively and defensively. It has a couple dozen meteors or more of length to it.

Knife - Hei carries several knives with him, which he uses in both ranged and melee combat.

Hei's Coat - When combined with his power, it provides an incredible amount of resistance to piercing and slashing weaponry, but only a moderate amount of protection to blunt force.

As you can see Hei has some immense reflexes.

Wei can disintegrate anything his blood touches. Hei is able to fake his death here and defeat Wei later.

Should also be noted that blood is conductive, and Hei can send his electrical shock through blood.

Hei vs. Multiple Contractors simultaneously

Hei can deal with invisibles, he has in the past. This guy goes invisible at the beginning of the fight (completely invisible), and Hei is able to pinpoint his location with ease.

0:35 - 0:45 - Guy goes invisible, team begins attacking Hei

0:45 - 1:00 - Hei dodges a dozen or more projectiles with ease.

1:00 - 1:15 - Hei kills a guy with ranged and pinpoint accuracy

1:15- 1:25 - Hei's coat deflects all projectiles without damage, and he takes out a guy with one well aimed shot

1:25- End - Catches the invisible guy.

Hei vs. Contractors

Explains his coat, and shows off his wire, and overall skill and ability a bit.

Advantages

The Predator has cloaking, but Hei has already proven on a dozen or more occasions that he can fight invisible opponents, as well as track their movements, and dodge their attacks. Overall, I'd say Hei's situational awareness can even out or even give him an edge in most scenarios. Added to this, Tumbler's can track infrared and etc.

Black Panther wears metal last I checked, which is a huge disadvantage against a guy who can do AoE electric attacks. Hei can KO lots of people from distance with relative ease. Over and above this, Hei doesn't wear a lot of metal, and has a Cloak that wards off piercing/slashing very well, making BP at another disadvantage.

Hei's mobility, wire, and speed can match anyone else here (except Fetts).

Finally, Hei is no stranger to stealth, and should be able to negate any stealth advantages from the opposing team.

Small caliber bullets are useless, most normal knives are going to be useless, even advanced slashing weapons will be warded off to a great degree.

Finally, Hei just has to land a hit, grapple, or wire on either of his opponents and he can almost instantly end this match. Whereas his opponents have to actually score a kill shot. I don't think I need to elaborate as to why this is an advantage.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#28 Edited by Fetts (4080 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto

@fetts FYI in regards to Big Boss, he only shows mercy towards the foot soldiers he encounters since they're just regular people doing their jobs and aren't actually evil. Against his enemies though, John can be excessively brutal. Just because he isn't an a$$hole like Boba Fett doesn't mean he won't win by any means necessary.

Ah but Boba isn't a particular nemesis of John's is he? For all John knows, Boba's a stand-up guy. Big Boss wouldn't kill Boba. In a sense, you've already admitted this. When I made that story last round, where Big Boss was hesitant to kill Deathstroke, you said it was unrealistic because Big Boss goes out of his way to save his enemies. So if Big Boss wouldn't kill Deathstroke, why would he kill Boba Fett? Let me answer that for you: he wouldn't.

Another thing worth bringing up is that Hei will not be able to automatically disable every single one of Snake's guns, because he can't conduct through empty space. That's why he uses the wire, as a conductor. And if Hei actually manages to snag one of Snake's guns with the wire, which won't happen since Naked Snake is not a complete dufus, but regardless if Hei does, then he might as well just snatch it away at that point, so the molecular control ability won't really come in handy during this match.

It seems to me that you are making the mistake of assuming one power's limitations (electric manipulation) are the same limitations of another's (matter manipulation). Which doesn't make much sense.

Perhaps @floopay would like to post this gun disabling clip.

Also I wouldn't say the Predator's cloaking is useless. Yes I understand Hei was able to detect an invisible enemy once before, but honestly, I am sure that an alien warrior from another planet who is trained to be one of the most elite races in the galaxy will be a lot more quiet then some fatass. Boba's visor is a pretty obvious indication that he's equipped with a few extra vision modes, and if Big Boss has the deductive skills to reason that Professor Galvez was really working for the KGB based on just his outfit, then he'll surely be smart enough to send the Predator after Hei instead. As for who comes out the victor of that battle, I really can't say. Hei is clearly very athletic but I feel you're overestimating his actual hand to hand skills. He lost that first fight and only won later with prep and surprise, and he had to be saved when he fought the Frenchmen or else he would have had his heart ripped out. The second clip is really impressive, but I just don't think it's enough to warrant a win over somebody who can literally rip you in half barehanded.

Floopay countered most of this. But I just want to point out that whether Predator goes after Boba or Hei, it doesn't matter. Boba has his infrared either way, and can still shoot at Predator no matter who he chooses as an opponent.

Darn straight

I never doubted it.

As for your "blowing up the car" idea, I don't think that would work, simply for the fact that Big Boss and Black Panther can both jump so far!

Here's Big Boss jumping over Peace Walker and into the Mammal Pod, which is an admirable feat of leg strength.

It sounded like Snake had to do some climbing to me.

And even if they can't clear the blast radius completely I doubt it's going to injure them too bad any way. Feats of Snake's endurance include:

  • Flying a high-speed drone at altitudes over 30,000 feet wearing only his field uniform, whereas the MiG pilots chasing him had to wear pressurized suits to survive
  • Muffling the liquid nitrogen leaking from Python's suit with his bare hands and no noticeable discomfort
  • Battling and defeating The Fury while the cave they fought in burned from the latter's rocket-fuel laced flamethrower
  • Surviving Zanzibarland's self destruct in his old age
  • Sustaining no damage from falling off the tip of a mountain at a height that was enough to kill a horse on impact, and then re-climbing said mountain again with his bare hands in seconds

And if none of that is enough for you,

Here's Snake standing at ground zero of an ICBM launch without having his atoms scrambled.

You are confusing endurance for durability. Only the third feat can actually be considered as endurance. The other feats has nothing to do with willpower or fighting spirit or toleration, or anything like that. It has more to do with physique.

You have to keep in mind that all characters are subject to the durability limits. Meaning they would be effected by such an explosion. Now as far as true endurance goes, I don't deny the possibility that Big Boss has good endurance feats. I know Solid Snake has a healthy amount. But you have to give us actual feats to make us believe Big Boss has great endurance.

Either way, you and I can both agree that Big Boss would not be in top notch fighting condition afterwards.

Lastly, would you mind showing the underlined feats if possible?

All this might seem pretty crazy, but Big Boss's soldier genes have always made him more than peak human.

And? There's not a soul in this fight who hasn't dealt with foes that are above peak human. As you well know, Boba has dealt with Jedi and Sith.

Read from right to left

Scan 1: Boba Fett takes down Rahm Kota instantly. Rahm Kota, who is a respected and experienced Jedi Master. Rahm Kota is also a master of Juyo, the most challenging lightsaber form to master.

Scans 2-4: Takes on a deformed Starkiller clone. I just want to point one a couple of things here. One, Boba was expecting the actual Starkiller. Seeing a deformed version of Starkiller would have undoubtedly caught him off guard, thus tainting his reflexes. Despite that however, Boba very nearly gets a shot off. Which brings me to the second thing I want to go over. Some of you are probably thinking that Starkiller could have sliced Boba instead of the blaster. But that's not true. Boba almost got the shot off. Had the clone gone for his body (which would have been a longer reach and would have taken more time), he would have shot him. So the clone had to respond to the blaster in some way. So, he chopped it into two pieces.

Anyway after recovering from the explosion, Snake will whip out his only weapon capable of dealing a decent amount of damage to that pesky Mandalorian armor - The Patriot.

Boba Fett can resist explosions and gunfire pretty well, but sustained fire from the Patriot will eat through that armor in no time when it was powerful enough to cause a steel-plated drone to randomly explode.

Indeed Boba's armor is pretty durable. I know you've seen these plenty of times before, but I'm going to post them for the voters.

Read from right to left--Boba's armor is blaster proof.
Boba practically tanks a direct impact from a missile. He definitely feels it, but he receives no serious injuries. And before you ask, yes that is within the durability limits. Pre-52 Deathstroke has similar feats.
Read from right to left--Here's one you haven't seen nick. Boba gets into a high-speed speeder accident, and is thrown approximately 20 yards. Boba feels groggy for a couple of seconds, but nothing more. And as you can see, the guy can still pull ka-ra-te moves without any difficulty despite the recent accident.
This is something that just struck me recently. It's easy to forget, but Darth Vader does have superhuman strength. He's dented durasteel with a punch, crushed rock pillars, etc. I'd say his strength level is in the 1-2 ton range, unless there are better strength feats that I am forgetting. Nevertheless, here you have it. Boba shrugs off a superhuman punch.
Shows that Boba isn't on the ground, moaning in pain.

However, you are forgetting something nick. In my strategy, Boba takes cover behind the other Tumbler. Tumblers have several layers of armor, so it should be very sufficient cover.

Call it game mechanics if you want, but here's Old Snake blowing up cars with the gun.

It took quite a few bullets to produce that effect though. Meanwhile, it only takes one shot shot from Boba's EE-3 Carbine blaster rifle to produce even better fireworks.

The Patriot has infinite ammo to boot,

Really? And how is this accomplished? Black magic or gypsy magic?

@higorm We've discussed the durability bit, so I'm just going to skip that part here.

Note that I don´t even start with the argument that he can dodge them all, the guy is used to dodge bullets, arrows (after it´s fired), catches bones that were thrown with the accuracy of bullseye (he only bothers to react when the bones were inches from his face), is fast enough to catch up to sabretooth (who is super human), takes down Cyclops before he can hit him with a optic blast, out maneuvers the human torch, leaps inside Sue's force field before it closes, also, while unenhanced he manages to jump out of the drivers seat of a car flips and lands on top of the car, when fighting Vlad the impaler who is an enhanced human remarked black panthers reflexes while he was unenhanced, he then free falls after some civilians and catches them both, etc, and so on..

Scans of everything I´ve just said:

In other words, Black Panther can and will dodge the enemy strikes, but even if he got hit, the vibranium suit will be there to save him.

None of these scans show how Black Panther would fare against AoE (Area of Effect for all yall who don't know what that means) attacks such as explosions though. AoE attacks spread in all directions. They don't go in linear paths like projectiles do.

As for the tumbler, Black Panther is skilled, experienced and most important, intelligent enough to figure out an easier way to quickly neutralize the vehicle, since he possess both energy daggers and anti-metal claws, he can just avoid being hit in the last moment while slice the tumbler, something like Morpheus did in Matrix movie.

That's a very bad idea on T'Challa's part. The closer he is to the Tumbler, the less likely it is that he's going to survive.

Firstly, I'm not so sure a Tumbler would flip over like the SUV did there. Tumblers are heavier. So the muffler system would still be at an angle where Boba could shoot it. But even if it did flip over like that, the underside is also shootable. This would also cause an explosion like it did in the video. Only with jet fuel, thus much larger.

Or, he can just fire several energy daggers with a single move from distance to destroy the tumblers, something like this:

That works the same for Boba Fett, who won´t be expecting such a devastating weapon comming at him at high speeds.. Also, like you said, Boba is used to tank hits but this time things will be different since the energy daggers aren´t just "explosive", let me explain:

Energy Daggers: energy constructed blades. The wielder has the ability to gauge between power levels, releasing a beam, powerful enough to slice through various structures and foe. This weapon can also be fired as a projectile. Energy daggers are T'Challa's default weapon of choice in armed combat situations.

  • First 2 scans show the energy daggers going intangible to phase through ultrons adamantium body
  • 3rd scan shows energy daggers deadening nerves of a skrull with reeds powers
  • Next one shows kasper cole swarming his energy daggers
  • Next one shows energy daggers can conduct with metal
  • Next shows energy daggers can bind people with a setting which kimoyo card can track
  • Next energy daggers cut through steal like government cheese.
  • Energy daggers being fired from the wrists
  • Black panthers energy daggers can shut iron mans force fields down
  • More cutting through force fields.

So what that means after all? That means Black Panther can either dodge or take hits from the enemy and still stand while the enemy can´t take hits since Boba Fett´s armor can´t prevent him from the almighty energy daggers.

There are several issues with this. One, this falls under the morality disadvantage of your team. Black Panther wouldn't kill a man that he doesn't know. He might kill HAND ninjas and robots. But a man he doesn't know? T'Challa wouldn't risk it. So he'd have a hard time finding something powerful enough to effect Boba, but not kill him at the same time.

Secondly, those energy daggers have different settings yes? Something you might be overlooking is that Panther needs to set said energy daggers at a certain setting. So say if he wanted to use an intangible energy dagger on the oncoming Tumbler. He'd only be able to throw one, and not an entire flurry of them, since he'd have to set each individual one at the intangible setting first. And it would take a flurry of intangible energy daggers to disrupt the electronics in the Tumbler. The mass and wiring of a Tumbler are much larger than that of Ultron's head.

I know there's very little of your response left. But I really need to go to bed. So I'll just respond to that last tiny bit tomorrow if you don't mind.

#29 Edited by Fetts (4080 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm

In top of that, as far as I remember, Black Panther gear includes the cloaking device and teleporter, so tell me how Boba Fett will deal with a invisible teleporter as skilled as T'Challa who already possess superhuman speed of his own? Imagine the combinations he can make using those devices with the energy daggers..

Firstly, I think it's rather clear that BP either can't, or won't use both the cloaking and the teleportation at the same time. Secondly, Boba has counters for both devices. Boba has his infrared to counter the cloaking device, and his audio filters to pick up the teleportations.

@nickzambuto Also, I can't quite tell who's facing who here. Is Big Boss going after Boba or is Black Panther? If none of them are dead after the explosion, I sincerely doubt both of them would go after Boba. Especially with your Predator dead from the explosion or slaughterstomped by Hei.

Prep/Tactics

Just a quick example of a direct confront between two prep masters: T'Challa and Tony Stark..

Both had prep on the other...Doesn't end well for Tony.

In short, your team just doesn´t have what it takes to bring Black Panther down, let alone with Big Boss helping him, so that´s why:

There is no prep here. So I fail to see the relevance of this.

#30 Posted by HigorM (3236 posts) - - Show Bio

@fetts: Do you really want to sell this "explosion" idea?

@floopay: Eletrick attacks against a VIBRANIUM SUIT?

So Black Panther, an enhanced human being, with super human stats, wearing a vibranium suit, will simply fall for explosion and eletrick attacks? Seriously?? Come ON!

Did you guys really think his armor can´t protect him from that? Let´s start with He´s main power attacks:

So Black Panther easily withstood a lightning strike from Storm, nuff said.

Another proof that the suit doesn´t conduct eletricity:

Now talking about explosions, I don´t see a single reason that would indicate that he would have problem with it, he has endured hits from powerhouses including Hulk and Iron Man, taken lots of Iron Fist's chi-backed punches (as already posted), and was perfectly fine after being shot by numerous assault rifles at point blank range. So its safe to say that his suit is more than capable to resist an explosion for Boba Fett.

Tumblers vs Energy Daggers

First, I just pointed one of the many possibilities avaiable for T'Challa to neutralize the tumblers, that was one of them, most because I wanted to post the matrix scene that I like so much. He can throw them from distance, several of them at the same time if necessary. Those vehicles doesn´t have enough durability to sustain such damage, so they´ll be easily destroyed.

Energy Dagger easily cuts through steal like cheese:

The daggers can also compromise all the eletronic function of the tumblers, since they can conduct with metal, as shown here:

As for the settings, yes, they may vary, but BP can do it in a matter of seconds, alter the settings according to his need, they can be set to stun, kill, or even bind people with a setting that can be tracked later with the kimoyo card, as you can see here:

So he doesn't need days of prep to be prepared with several different daggers in his suit, all he need to do is adjust them any way he wants them to be..

One more thing, he doesn´t need to throw them, he can shoot them as well:

Now talking about time for preparation, I believe that although not especifically given, both characters will know they need to be ready for the next fight, they know that a new enemy approaches, so they will do their best to be prepared in the best way they can using everything at disposal. So considering that Black Panther is a genius, he can figure out how to deal with upcomming threats using available resources around him. He did something similar to that, by the time he was the Man Without Fear, using limited resources.

Still, T'Challa manage to best kingpin in tactics:

Some tech that black panther came up with in hells kitchen. Also nn the 1st scan Falcon states it took black panther 10 minutes to make a device to shut off typhoid marys powers:

So yeah, it´s quite relevant..

#31 Posted by HigorM (3236 posts) - - Show Bio

@fetts: Also, when it comes to morals, your teammates may be amazed if the fight comes to a close combat, with the result depending on how far Black Panther would go, I´m pretty sure that his morals won´t be a problem here at all:

As said by @k4tzm4n: T'Challa is a man that has no gripe ripping out eyes (Super Skrull) and, in NEW AVENGERS #1 (pictured above), he "basically ripped a dude in half" according to writer Jonathan Hickman.

#32 Posted by Fetts (4080 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm Sorry I haven't gotten back to this. But let's continue shall we?

Now talking about explosions, I don´t see a single reason that would indicate that he would have problem with it, he has endured hits from powerhouses includingHulk and Iron Man, taken lots of Iron Fist's chi-backed punches (as already posted), and was perfectly fine after being shot by numerous assault rifles at point blank range. So its safe to say that his suit is more than capable to resist an explosion for Boba Fett.

I'm pretty sure the Hulk feat is commonly accepted as PIS. As for the Iron Man and Iron Fist feats, he may have survived those but it is irrelevant. I have already discussed how BP's durability would be lowered in this fight.

Did you guys really think his armor can´t protect him from that? Let´s start with He´s main power attacks:

So Black Panther easily withstood a lightning strike from Storm, nuff said.


I know this is more of @floopay's point to counter, but I have to point out that this is from AvX... AvX feats shouldn't be taken seriously. I'm not necessarily saying that Black Panther can't insulate against lightning, as you did post another similar feat. But I just don't think this one should be taken seriously.

First, I just pointed one of the many possibilities avaiable for T'Challa to neutralize the tumblers, that was one of them, most because I wanted to post the matrix scene that I like so much. He can throw them from distance, several of them at the same time if necessary. Those vehicles doesn´t have enough durability to sustain such damage, so they´ll be easily destroyed.

Energy Dagger easily cuts through steal like cheese:

The daggers can also compromise all the eletronic function of the tumblers, since they can conduct with metal, as shown here:

Hm. I'm not entirely sure if the first setting could go completely through the multiple layers of armor the Tumbler has to offer. And I'm not so sure that was even a energy dagger to begin with in the second scan. Even still, I doubt the electricity could penetrate the Tumbler's electronics' while it's encased in armor.

I'm not denying that Black Panther couldn't handle a Tumbler. I just don't think you have the multitude of ways of neutralizing it that you think you have. And if the Tumbler was neutralized, it doesn't matter. Boba would have accomplished what he was planning to do: getting the Tumbler close to your team.

As for the settings, yes, they may vary, but BP can do it in a matter of seconds, alter the settings according to his need, they can be set to stun, kill, or even bind people with a setting that can be tracked later with the kimoyo card, as you can see here:

So he doesn't need days of prep to be prepared with several different daggers in his suit, all he need to do is adjust them any way he wants them to be..

You're kinda proving my point in saying this. Black Panther does have to set his energy daggers to a certain mode. And it'd take a couple of seconds. Precious seconds that Black Panther might not have before the Tumbler gets to him. In which case, he'd most likely decide to screw the dagger and just avoid the motor beast.

It doesn't matter either way whether you'd neutralize it or not. The Tumbler would still be close to your team. And from there, Boba could shoot it with his mini-concussion missile causing the massive explosion.

Now talking about time for preparation, I believe that although not especifically given, both characters will know they need to be ready for the next fight, they know that a new enemy approaches, so they will do their best to be prepared in the best way they can using everything at disposal. So considering that Black Panther is a genius, he can figure out how to deal with upcomming threats using available resources around him. He did something similar to that, by the time he was the Man Without Fear, using limited resources.

Ready? Expecting? Prepared? Sure. As is everybody else in this tourney is by now. But using the resources around him? Sticks? Stones? Vegetation? What device is Black Panther going to make out of these? Especially one that is superior to what he's already got in his arsenal? That's not something I see Black Panther doing. He doesn't need sticks and stones. He already has sufficient gear.

I don't know what other instance you're talking about, but I'll bet you he used the resources around him because he had to. Yes?

Still, T'Challa manage to best kingpin in tactics:

Tactics may be of relevance. But I don't think we're at that stage yet. We're more at the stage of "how your team is going to make it out of a huge explosion in one piece".

Also, when it comes to morals, your teammates may be amazed if the fight comes to a close combat, with the result depending on how far Black Panther would go, I´m pretty sure that his morals won´t be a problem here at all:

As said by @k4tzm4n: T'Challa is a man that has no gripe ripping out eyes (Super Skrull) and, in NEW AVENGERS #1 (pictured above), he "basically ripped a dude in half" according to writer Jonathan Hickman.

Though I will have to see the actual scan where he rips a dude in half, you're not exactly disproving my point with this. Like I said, Black Panther might be willing to kill people he knows to be evil. But he doesn't know Boba. Boba could be a hero for all he knows. And even if he did know Boba, "evil" isn't a word I'd use to describe him per se. Sometimes he is written as a villain. But he's usually written as an anti-hero. His moral code is more on the lines of the Punisher's moral code.

#33 Edited by Floopay (7700 posts) - - Show Bio

@fetts: @higorm:

Insulated Suit


For arguments sake, lets assume Black Panther does have an insulated suit. I want you to keep in mind Hei and Boba will be communicating with one another, and as shown in our previous round, our team is not scared to start forest fires.

Black Panther is running around the forest, mid-day, in an insulated suit, and wearing all black metal. At the same time, he's fighting a guy who commands electricity (and has been shown to be immune to it), which not only electrocutes, but also produces heat. Black Panther's body has no means of cooling itself down. I don't think I'm being ridiculous when I tell you between being immensely physically active (Hei prefers to fight at a distance, so Black Panther will be spending a good amount of time just trying to keep up with him), being out in the hot sun, dealing with electrocution, and dealing with Boba's missiles/flamethrowers, Black Panther's body and brain will give out on him pretty quick. Over and above this, as he begins to sweat more and more one of two things will happen. Either A) his insulated suit will become wet with sweat (which is highly conductive), or B) his insulated suit will trap in the hot moisture and only serve to overheat him more quickly. It all depends on what the material is made out of.

Boba and Hei together

I think it's become apparent both have the mobility advantage, and love to use it. Most guns and weapons won't be useful against either of our team members, as we both have armor that renders it relatively useless. Boba can take to the sky, which puts a huge damper on Black Panther's ability to hit him, or he can take the ground, and just burn a huge area in Black Panther's path, preventing him from having any chance of getting near him. Hei uses his wire to traverse from one area to the next, and prefers to stay at ranged combat. That being said, if forced into close quarter combat, he has shown that he's actually very adept at fighting.

Hei's fighting style and armor

I think Big Boss has no real means of harming Hei to be honest. Even with grenades and stuff, Hei has shown the ability to maneuver out of the way with relative ease. Most of his weapons can't penetrate Hei's armor, and in melee combat Hei can KO him with an omni-directional shockwave.

Black Panther also has to bypass Hei's armor, which is being held together via electron manipulation. His Anti-Metal claws are worthless, as it's Hei's power that holds his armor together, and it's not made of metal. Finally, him and Hei have shown comparable levels of fighting ability. The only difference, is Hei has a faster means of moving from one place to another. Which means his ranged abilities should prove pretty useful.

Over and above this, as I established earlier, Black Panther is on a very limited time clock. Hei may be wearing black, but his whole body has room to breath, and he's used to fighting in a jungle environment. Black Panther is used to the environment (moreso than Hei), and may even be used to the heat, but at the end of the day his body CANNOT BREATH, his insulated suit, by it's very definition, will suffocate his body.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#34 Posted by HigorM (3236 posts) - - Show Bio
@fetts said:

Sorry I haven't gotten back to this. But let's continue shall we?

No problem, let´s do it, things are starting to get more interesting now..

I'm pretty sure the Hulk feat is commonly accepted as PIS. As for the Iron Man and Iron Fist feats, he may have survived those but it is irrelevant. I have already discussed how BP's durability would be lowered in this fight.

Don´t see any indication of PIS, the guy wears a vibranium suit, which absorbs any vibrations and kinetic energy directed at it as its molecules behave as if at absolute zero.

Superhuman Durability: T'Challa's ability to endure and resist damage is exceptionally high. His body can withstand powerful crushing blows and puncture wounds. The effects of the Heart Shaped Herb, combined with a vibranium-laced suit, allows T'Challa to heal at an accelerated rate far superior to the average man. He also possesses a nigh-invulnerability to various diseases, poisons, virus/bacteria, etc.

I know this is more of @floopay's point to counter, but I have to point out that this is from AvX... AvX feats shouldn't be taken seriously. I'm not necessarily saying that Black Panther can't insulate against lightning, as you did post another similar feat. But I just don't think this one should be taken seriously.

He not only can as he already did it before, so I don´t get your point here, the vibranium suit absorbs energy, that´s a fact. Black Panther already manage to survive, even concious after being striked by Stardust blasts.

Hm. I'm not entirely sure if the first setting could go completely through the multiple layers of armor the Tumbler has to offer. And I'm not so sure that was even a energy dagger to begin with in the second scan. Even still, I doubt the electricity could penetrate the Tumbler's electronics' while it's encased in armor.

It is a dagger, you can read the issue to confirm if you want. Multiple layers means nothing to Black Panther, I´ve already presented scans that proves the dagger being more than capable of cutting metal with easy. An encased armor won´t prevent Tumbler for being compromised since the dagger conducts through metal.

I'm not denying that Black Panther couldn't handle a Tumbler. I just don't think you have the multitude of ways of neutralizing it that you think you have. And if the Tumbler was neutralized, it doesn't matter. Boba would have accomplished what he was planning to do: getting the Tumbler close to your team.

I´ve presented enough scans already. It´s time for you to show how great it´s durability is, prove me how the Tumbler can resist an energy dagger strike. Black Panther can do it from distance and is fast enough to avoid it if necessary, also, the anti-metal claws can tear the Tumbler apart before it manage to do anything. BP can always count on the suit for protection.

  1. Black panther uses his vibranium soles to rob the momentum of a car that was tossed at him by the Hulk.
  2. Uses his vibranium soles and anti metal claws to scale a jumbo jet

Black panthers anti-metal claws break down any metal instantly:

You're kinda proving my point in saying this. Black Panther does have to set his energy daggers to a certain mode. And it'd take a couple of seconds. Precious seconds that Black Panther might not have before the Tumbler gets to him. In which case, he'd most likely decide to screw the dagger and just avoid the motor beast.

No at all, I just posted the scan to prove that he doesn´t need one year of prep to set his energy daggers to a different mode. He can do it without prep since they are already there for him to use. Black Panther is fast and skilled enough to deal with the Tumbler without being impaired.

It doesn't matter either way whether you'd neutralize it or not. The Tumbler would still be close to your team. And from there, Boba could shoot it with his mini-concussion missile causing the massive explosion.

Black Panther can and will neutralize it from distance, the guy did it against Iron Man, neutralizing his shields and compromising his armor in one single move, I hardly believe the Tumbler could do any harm against my team.

Ready? Expecting? Prepared? Sure. As is everybody else in this tourney is by now. But using the resources around him? Sticks? Stones? Vegetation? What device is Black Panther going to make out of these? Especially one that is superior to what he's already got in his arsenal? That's not something I see Black Panther doing. He doesn't need sticks and stones. He already has sufficient gear. I don't know what other instance you're talking about, but I'll bet you he used the resources around him because he had to. Yes?

Everybody starts at equal conditions, but what I was saying is that T´Challa is the most capable of all. Predator is there to share some advanced gear with him, he can make good use of his equipment. Also, just to reinforce what I said, the next scans shows some tech that Black Panther came up with in hells kitchen, on the first scan Falcon states it took him only 10 minutes to make a device to shut down typhoid marys powers.

Tactics may be of relevance. But I don't think we're at that stage yet. We're more at the stage of "how your team is going to make it out of a huge explosion in one piece".

Are you still insisting on this fail tactic? Your master plan is to use a "huge explosion" against someone with Superhuman Agility, Senses, Durability, who wears a vibranium suit which can absorb either the impact, heat, energy generated, not to mention that he can just teleport away from the explosion? Seriously? You really want to sell this idea? I don´t think so.

Though I will have to see the actual scan where he rips a dude in half, you're not exactly disproving my point with this. Like I said, Black Panther might be willing to kill people he knows to be evil. But he doesn't know Boba. Boba could be a hero for all he knows. And even if he did know Boba, "evil" isn't a word I'd use to describe him per se. Sometimes he is written as a villain. But he's usually written as an anti-hero. His moral code is more on the lines of the Punisher's moral code.

He already manage to rip Iron Man before, who was his friend, so why should be hold back against a stranger who is showing intent to attack him? Also, keep in mind both team went though past battles, so all that morals talk won´t work here. Specially when it comes to characters such as Big Boss (@nickzambuto can speak better for his guy than me) and Black Panther, they will do whatever it takes to accomplish their mission.

#35 Edited by nickzambuto (11423 posts) - - Show Bio

About Big Boss's morals, he likes to show mercy to innocent people, but only when he can. He's not Batman, and will not risk compromising himself, or the mission, just to save one person's life. To Snake, Boba Fett and Hei fall in the same boat as every member of the Cobra Unit did - a powerful, anonymous foe, who can not be taken lightly. And anyone who's played MGS3 should remember that Snake had no qualms about murdering every one of them. So there's no reason to believe that morals is going to save Boba and Hei in this fight.

But I just want to point out that whether Predator goes after Boba or Hei, it doesn't matter. Boba has his infrared either way, and can still shoot at Predator no matter who he chooses as an opponent.

I'm not saying Boba Fett is unskilled, but the feat of shooting a bullet timer while at the same time fending off two of the most heavily armed and trained warriors of their respective universes, seems a bit out of his league. Hei may have battled invisible enemies before, but still, claiming that being INVISIBLE does not put Hei at a disadvantage against the Predator seems silly.

You are confusing endurance for durability. Only the third feat can actually be considered as endurance. The other feats has nothing to do with willpower or fighting spirit or toleration, or anything like that. It has more to do with physique.

So you're saying that durability has nothing to do with surviving an explosion? The feats I posted were all elemental based to prove that Big Boss can tank this tactic without being too messed up. I mean, withstanding an ICBM missile launch at ground zero of the ignition point is pretty high end...

And to be honest it's kind of silly to call me out on that. You know what I meant.

Either way, you and I can both agree that Big Boss would not be in top notch fighting condition afterwards.

Call me crazy, but I actually would.

You have to keep in mind that all characters are subject to the durability limits. Meaning they would be effected by such an explosion.

The durability limit was actually Deathstroke, and he tanks crap like that all the time.

Now as far as true endurance goes, I don't deny the possibility that Big Boss has good endurance feats. I know Solid Snake has a healthy amount. But you have to give us actual feats to make us believe Big Boss has great endurance.

Your assumption is correct. Naked Snake has endured some truly inhuman punishment during his lifetime, both mental as well as physical, all of which eventually culminated into his transformation into the tyrant Big Boss. During Operation Snake Eater he encountered the physical embodiments of pain, fear, sorrow, fury, and oblivion, and conquered them all. Sorrow specifically proved Naked Snake's mental fortitude and indominable will, with the Cobra member forcing Snake to literally walk the river of sorrow, where he experienced the agony and anguish of every person who he has ever killed all at once.

The boss battle only reflects those that the player has killed (for obvious reasons) but by this point in the story, John has been a soldier for over a decade and is stated to have killed a lot of people by that point. The fact that he didn't go completely mad is a testament to his strength.

If you want something more combat-related then there's the famous torture scene.

Snake is beaten by the Boss so badly that he can't even fight back as the sadistic Colonel Volgin absolutely destroys his body with inhuman strength, and then fries him with lightning blasts of over 10 million volts (and that @floopay guy thinks Hei is gonna oneshot Snake with electricity. Please.) Keep in mind the fact that Volgin's fists have punched holes through the Shagohad's armor, so his bare hands pack more of a punch than missiles and RPGs. Considering Snake can tank that, Boba Fett's (admittedly massive) arsenal isn't going to oneshot him.

Anyway Snake is beaten half to death, not to mention loses an eye and gets shot in the leg, but retains enough of his wits and will to outsmart his captors and escape his prison cell, then sneak through the world's most heavily fortified military base with no gear, weapons, or clothing, and finally escape into the sewers where he outraced a squad of attack dogs and survived cannon balling down a 200 foot water fall. There's "endurance" for ya.

Here are those two feats you asked for:

Solid Snake defeats Big Boss at Outer Heaven and the whole facility goes off in a giant mushroom cloud. Big Boss survived (though not in one piece)

Naked Snake and his horse fall off a mountain. The horse dies instantly but Snake is just like lolk and then climbs the mountain bare handed.

Scan 1: Boba Fett takes down Rahm Kota instantly. Rahm Kota, who is a respected and experienced Jedi Master. Rahm Kota is also a master of Juyo, the most challenging lightsaber form to master.

Scans 2-4: Takes on a deformed Starkiller clone.

Does Rahm really have that many feats? He kinda gives me a jobberish vibe.

And zombies aren't that difficult to outsmart. Starkiller lost all his intelligence and skills - the things that actually make him powerful. Beating a berserker zombie Batman isn't really that impressive, for example.

And both of those fighters were forced to go close quarters with Boba Fett - a very bad idea when he can easily maneuver around them and use his weapons to their fullest advantage. Against Big Boss and Black Panther, range will be his worst enemy.

The Patriot has infinite ammo to boot,

Really? And how is this accomplished? Black magic or gypsy magic?

Because the feed mechanism is shaped like an infinity symbol, obviously.

BigBoss2

Boss2

I think Big Boss has no real means of harming Hei to be honest. Even with grenades and stuff, Hei has shown the ability to maneuver out of the way with relative ease. Most of his weapons can't penetrate Hei's armor, and in melee combat Hei can KO him with an omni-directional shockwave.

Like I've been over, the Patriot is not a regular rifle. I can not stress this enough, but some people just don't get it sometimes. The Patriot was The Boss's custom made personal firearm; it has far greater firepower than any other firearm in existence, but since The Boss was the only soldier on Earth who could actually handle the recoil, they never mass produced it.

Later Big Boss inherits the gun after killing his former mentor. As I've shown, the gun was powerful enough to cause a steel drone designed to withstand supersonic speeds and extreme pressures at thousands of feet above sea level, to literally explode. If all Hei's coat can do is protect him from regular bullets, then the Patriot will shred him in an instant. Boba has a bit more protection but would still get eaten up eventually. In the end if all else fails, Snake can just shoot him in the legs. I understand Hei is light on his feet, but he doesn't seem like much of a bullet timer, so he should be no problem for a master marksman like Big Boss.

Also, I can't quite tell who's facing who here. Is Big Boss going after Boba or is Black Panther? If none of them are dead after the explosion, I sincerely doubt both of them would go after Boba. Especially with your Predator dead from the explosion or slaughterstomped by Hei.

Snake and Panther vs Boba and Predator vs Hei. Worst case scenario Snake shoots Hei a few times then comes back.

@fetts @higorm Your blow-up-the-tumbler tactic will help you win a few rounds, but there is simply way too many variables to call it a definite win. Whether Panther just disables the vehicle before it gets anywhere near us, or we manage to dodge it, or we tank it, or hell, maybe the tumbler won't even explode (this isn't a movie after all, we'll most likely just be dealing with the effects of Boba's missile filtered through an armored tank, and honestly both of these warriors have taken far worse than that). But whereas that is your major advantage, team Panther Boss has one major edge over you at the same time, and that is the simple fact that if you lose track of us for just one moment - nay, all that needs to happen is one of us gets away - then it's basically all over for your team. Big Boss and Black Panther both posses the firepower and strategic mind to end this battle instantly, if afforded the chance through stealth, and keep in mind, they are both stealth masters.

Like I mentioned before, after getting his eye shot out and pretty much every bone in his body shattered, Snake escapes his cell and sneaks all the way through Groznyj Grad without being detected by any member of the entire army stationed there.

Naked Snake solos the Ocelot Unit using stealth, which is the elite task unit of the Spetsnaz (so basically the elite of the elite)

Naked Snake stealths Python, AKA the Anti-Snake (he was created to hold every conceivable advantage over Big Boss for the task of assassinating him) using the fog created by the latter's own cryo-suit (Python is literally Mr. Freeze if Victor was a special forces assassin)

Snake sneaks through a crowd of soldiers and gets right behind the ESP-enhanced super soldier Gene without him noticing.

Naked Snake's approach is subtle enough to eavesdrop on a precog.

And my favorite,

This is one of Snake's best. The End is an age-old legendary sniper heralded as basically creating the art of sniping. Don't let his age fool you; he's completely superhuman, and can literally communicate with the forest, not to mention conduct photosynthesis on himself for infinite stamina and match his body heat signature with his surroundings. Snake had absolutely no advantage in this battle, yet still managed to track The End down despite his abilities and camouflage making him nearly indiscernable from the landscape, holds him up, and steals his outfit for lulz. For Snake to outmaneuver The End, literally sneak by the forest itself, his stealth instincts must be straight up superhuman.

Snake clearly has the stealth skills needed to elude Boba and Hei - after all, jungle infiltration is his specialty. Yes Boba has his visor, but really he's hardly the first character with thermal imaging and a heart beat sensor to still be outwitted by Naked Snake. There's plenty of cover around, and since Snake is stated as specializing in camouflage, there's no way for Boba to spot him, if he doesn't want to be spotted. From there, it's just a matter of tactically trapping the area and probably blowing Hei up, and then moving on to Mr. Mandalorian armor.

#36 Posted by Fetts (4080 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto @higorm I sincerely apologize for not getting back to this yet. Life's been busy with high school. Plus Jokergeist's tourney is pretty demanding as it has a certain amount of days when you have to respond. I'll do my best to get on it this week. Thanksgiving vacation is coming up, so that should be easy. But just letting you two know that I haven't forgotten about this match.

#37 Posted by HigorM (3236 posts) - - Show Bio

@fetts: no problem, take your time bro :)

#38 Edited by Fetts (4080 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm Alrighty! I'm back.

Don´t see any indication of PIS, the guy wears a vibranium suit, which absorbs any vibrations and kinetic energy directed at it as its molecules behave as if at absolute zero.

Superhuman Durability: T'Challa's ability to endure and resist damage is exceptionally high. His body can withstand powerful crushing blows and puncture wounds. The effects of the Heart Shaped Herb, combined with a vibranium-laced suit, allows T'Challa to heal at an accelerated rate far superior to the average man. He also possesses a nigh-invulnerability to various diseases, poisons, virus/bacteria, etc.

Ya. It really is. It may be able to absorb kinetic energy and vibrations and whatnot, but not to that extent. This is the freaking Hulk. He easily packs a bigger punch than Iron Fist. Black Panther has had the wind taken out of him from far inferior opponents like Red Skull, 60's Captain America, a rhino, etc. Heck even Black Panther himself admitted that one blow from the Hulk should kill him!

Even if T'Challa could tank punches from Hulk so easily, it'd be against tourney rules anyways.

He not only can as he already did it before, so I don´t get your point here, the vibranium suit absorbs energy, that´s a fact. Black Panther already manage to survive, even concious after being striked by Stardust blasts.

Dude, the level of PIS/CIS there is like "Deathstroke tagging Flash" level. I mean it's a freaking Galactus herald! Do I really need to go into detail about this?

I'm sure I could go around digging for more scans that'd prove that Black Panther really should not have shrugged that off if you really wanted to. But I'm sure the vast majority of the votes won't need any proof, as I'm sure most know the power of a Galactus herald.

And it'd also break the durability limit by far if it wasn't PIS/CIS.

It is a dagger, you can read the issue to confirm if you want. Multiple layers means nothing to Black Panther, I´ve already presented scans that proves the dagger being more than capable of cutting metal with easy. An encased armor won´t prevent Tumbler for being compromised since the dagger conducts through metal.

I'm confused to which setting you're talking about now. Are you referring to the one that "cuts through government steel like cheese"? If so, my point is that multiple layers of armor should prevent an energy dagger from going all the way through. Keep in mind that this bad boy tanked tackled a freaking garbage truck, and then tanked an RPG.

Skip to 1:40

He only ditched it because he crashed and wasn't fully operational.

If you're referring to the the one that goes intangible, I've talked about how it's possible that it might take a flurry of them. These aren't electronics with the same small mass as Ultron's head. They're bigger. And even if one did the trick, the Tumbler would still crash near your team. That's all I'm trying to accomplish with that: Get the Tumbler close to your team. Whether you disable the electronics or make it crash is irrelevant. You can't dispute that the Tumbler wouldn't get close to your team, and you can't dispute that the jet fuel wouldn't be available for Boba to shoot.

I´ve presented enough scans already. It´s time for you to show how great it´s durability is, prove me how the Tumbler can resist an energy dagger strike. Black Panther can do it from distance and is fast enough to avoid it if necessary, also, the anti-metal claws can tear the Tumbler apart before it manage to do anything. BP can always count on the suit for protection.

  1. Black panther uses his vibranium soles to rob the momentum of a car that was tossed at him by the Hulk.
  2. Uses his vibranium soles and anti metal claws to scale a jumbo jet

    Black panthers anti-metal claws break down any metal instantly:

Ok you're not listening to what I'm saying. I'm saying that Panther could neutralize the Tumbler. He has a couple of ways, but due to the durability of the Tumbler it would probably take a certain special setting. And if T'Challa did have to spare even a couple of precious seconds to set the dagger, the Tumbler might already be too close for him to use it. In which case he'd have to avoid the Tumbler! The very point I was making in my opening post! I in no way believe that T'Challa couldn't avoid the mass of the jet-powered beast. I 100% believe that he couldl. But the explosion that'd happen immediately afterwards? It's not as likely.

No at all, I just posted the scan to prove that he doesn´t need one year of prep to set his energy daggers to a different mode. He can do it without prep since they are already there for him to use. Black Panther is fast and skilled enough to deal with the Tumbler without being impaired.

Can you please actually read my posts?

I never-ever said that BP would need a year of prep to set his energy daggers. In fact, I said it'd take just a couple of seconds to set one. My point is that Black Panther doesn't know what he's facing prior to the battle. He wouldn't necessarily have his energy daggers set to the desired setting he'd need as he walks into this battle. He might actually need to take seconds to configure the energy dagger to the desired setting. And you know the rest from there.

Black Panther can and will neutralize it from distance, the guy did it against Iron Man, neutralizing his shields and compromising his armor in one single move, I hardly believe the Tumbler could do any harm against my team.

Been over this too many times.

Everybody starts at equal conditions, but what I was saying is that T´Challa is the most capable of all. Predator is there to share some advanced gear with him, he can make good use of his equipment. Also, just to reinforce what I said, the next scans shows some tech that Black Panther came up with in hells kitchen, on the first scan Falcon states it took him only 10 minutes to make a device to shut down typhoid marys powers.

Oh bull! Throughout the majority of the AvP movie the Predator was killing the humans simply because they had his plasma caster. A Predator would never share his technology with another species. Black Panther would have to take it from him. But Black Panther would never start an unnecessary conflict. The only reason why he'd just take the tech is if a situation was pressuring him to do so. But you guys aren't in such a situation prior the the battle.

Furthermore, T'Challa would have undoubtedly had access to all of those wonderful Wakandan gismos and fancy science gadgets in that scan. There's not a snowball's chance in hell he'd be able to analyze an alien weapon and create something even more useful out of it without the necessary equipment. Equipment he doesn't have here.

Are you still insisting on this fail tactic? Your master plan is to use a "huge explosion" against someone with Superhuman Agility, Senses, Durability, who wears a vibranium suit which can absorb either the impact, heat, energy generated, not to mention that he can just teleport away from the explosion? Seriously? You really want to sell this idea? I don´t think so.

Absolutely. Here's the thing, by sending the Tumbler on a collision course towards your team, I've already forced you to utilize your agility prior to the explosion. So let me just give you an example of what it might look like: Boba uses the remote control and makes the Tumbler speed towards your way. Black Panther proceeds to flip over the Tumbler. Stop! Right there T'Challa has already utilized his agility. So he's in mid-air, flipping over the Tumbler. And as he's in mid-air, Boba shoots his mini-concussion missile into the large muffler of the Tumbler.

This makes it impossible for T'Challa to avoid the explosion since he was in the middle of avoiding the Tumbler. As for senses? I fail to see how superhuman senses are of any relevance in regards to avoiding the Tumbler or the explosion. An average man can clearly see a Tumbler coming towards him in the same scenario. I don't know what you're trying to get with that.

Durability and the whole "vibranium suit absorbing" bit are one and the same. There's no difference. Durability is how well you can take/absorb damage. The vibranium suit falls under durability. And with the durability limits of Deathstroke's Promethium armor, there's only so much Black Panther can take.

Read from right to left--Here we see an explosion roughly the same size as the one that's going to be produced in this battle. Slade definitely didn't shrug that one off.

Now you be able to make an argument where Black Panther might have better endurance than Slade, but's that up to you to make such an argument. Either way, BP would be far from his best-fighting condition.

As far as teleportation goes, I sincerely doubt BP would use it. He's hardly used it before. And he only used in fighting, not avoiding things. I sincerely doubt he'd reflexively turn on his teleportation device.

He already manage to rip Iron Man before, who was his friend, so why should be hold back against a stranger who is showing intent to attack him? Also, keep in mind both team went though past battles, so all that morals talk won´t work here. Specially when it comes to characters such as Big Boss (@nickzambuto can speak better for his guy than me) and Black Panther, they will do whatever it takes to accomplish their mission.

What the hell are you talking about? T'Challa has never killed Tony. He might have hurt him, but that's far from the same thing as killing him.

@nickzambuto

About Big Boss's morals, he likes to show mercy to innocent people, but only when he can. He's not Batman, and will not risk compromising himself, or the mission, just to save one person's life. To Snake, Boba Fett and Hei fall in the same boat as every member of the Cobra Unit did - a powerful, anonymous foe, who can not be taken lightly. And anyone who's played MGS3 should remember that Snake had no qualms about murdering every one of them. So there's no reason to believe that morals is going to save Boba and Hei in this fight.

Alright. That's a fair enough point. What you said in the last round sorta had me thinking otherwise. I don't think it'll matter too much in the grand scheme of things though.

I'm not saying Boba Fett is unskilled, but the feat of shooting a bullet timer while at the same time fending off two of the most heavily armed and trained warriors of their respective universes, seems a bit out of his league. Hei may have battled invisible enemies before, but still, claiming that being INVISIBLE does not put Hei at a disadvantage against the Predator seems silly.

So freaking what? Big Boss has different factors to face here with Boba. Boba not only has skill, he has an insanely lethal arsenal and jetpack speed to boot. That's like me saying "Big Boss may be skilled, but Boba has beaten a highly experienced and highly trained Jedi Master (he was trained before puberty, as all Jedi are) with superhuman speed and precognition (among other Force powers like telekinesis) with the upmost ease, so Boba outclasses Big Boss here". Now I could use that point in a certain argument like "Who's better at H2H combat: Boba Fett or Big Boss?". But not as a whole. Not "Who's better overall: Boba Fett or Big Boss?". For example if Big Boss could explode minds just by thinking it, H2H combat wouldn't mean jack squat. So really your whole "the feat of shooting a bullet timer while at the same time fending off two of the most heavily armed and trained warriors of their respective universes, seems a bit out of his league" argument is (no offense) stupid.

Furthermore, I know how much you like to take things out of context, so maybe you'd like to post this feat?

So you're saying that durability has nothing to do with surviving an explosion? The feats I posted were all elemental based to prove that Big Boss can tank this tactic without being too messed up. I mean, withstanding an ICBM missile launch at ground zero of the ignition point is pretty high end...

The durability limit was actually Deathstroke, and he tanks crap like that all the time.

Um... No? I was saying the exact opposite. Durability has everything to do with surviving an explosion, and nothing to do with endurance. You claimed that all of those feats were endurance. Most of them weren't. Now if we were talking about how well Big Boss performed after surviving an explosion, then we could say it's endurance. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about jumping off mountains unscathed and surviving missile launches at point blank range. That's durability. And I'm pretty sure both would be considered over the durability limit. And you have still failed to show me the first mountain instance.

But I somehow want call PIS on at least the latter one. I mean doesn't Big Boss dodge bullets? If Big Boss could really survive ground zero during the ignition point you'd think be able to simply tank bullets like the Hulk or something. But he doesn't so… Ya.

Either way, Deathstroke has most certainly never tanked an explosion like that effortlessly. Take a look at the two scans in my response to HigorM.

Here's the biggest explosion Deathstroke has ever survived (a.k.a. your definition of "tanking"):

Read from right to left--Firstly, there's no telling how close was. But we can guess he's fairly close judging from his tattered clothing. He was also among the others trapped in the rubble. So if he was at the center of it he would have either been vaporized or sent sky high across the block (if he was that durable that is). Secondly, he was KO'd. By default that means he didn't tank it. Thirdly, he nearly died.

Your assumption is correct. Naked Snake has endured some truly inhuman punishment during his lifetime, both mental as well as physical, all of which eventually culminated into his transformation into the tyrant Big Boss. During Operation Snake Eater he encountered the physical embodiments of pain, fear, sorrow, fury, and oblivion, and conquered them all. Sorrow specifically proved Naked Snake's mental fortitude and indominable will, with the Cobra member forcing Snake to literally walk the river of sorrow, where he experienced the agony and anguish of every person who he has ever killed all at once.

The boss battle only reflects those that the player has killed (for obvious reasons) but by this point in the story, John has been a soldier for over a decade and is stated to have killed a lot of people by that point. The fact that he didn't go completely mad is a testament to his strength.

While this is impressive, the ability to overcome emotional pain is of no value in this battle really. So yes I would prefer something more combat-related.

If you want something more combat-related then there's the famous torture scene.

Snake is beaten by the Boss so badly that he can't even fight back as the sadistic Colonel Volgin absolutely destroys his body with inhuman strength, and then fries him with lightning blasts of over 10 million volts (and that@floopay guy thinks Hei is gonna oneshot Snake with electricity. Please.) Keep in mind the fact that Volgin's fists have punched holes through the Shagohad's armor, so his bare hands pack more of a punch than missiles and RPGs. Considering Snake can tank that, Boba Fett's (admittedly massive) arsenal isn't going to oneshot him.

Anyway Snake is beaten half to death, not to mention loses an eye and gets shot in the leg, but retains enough of his wits and will to outsmart his captors and escape his prison cell, then sneak through the world's most heavily fortified military base with no gear, weapons, or clothing, and finally escape into the sewers where he outraced a squad of attack dogs and survived cannon balling down a 200 foot water fall. There's "endurance" for ya.

Believe it or not, but the voltage actually has very little to do with lethality. Volts aren't what kill people. It's a matter of how many AMPS there are, and if the power reaches your heart. It's why a taser can have so much as 500,000 to 1,000,000 volts and is still strictly considered non-lethal. Here are some examples of average people getting based by tasers with several million volts:

He doesn't do it until the end.

Nothing more than a bad sting. So again, it's really not as impressive as you think it is.

As for the punches, RPGs can indeed puncture the Shagohad's armor at the right places.

That's why Volgin had to get out and punch through the top and electrocute the wiring. The RPG rounds were damaging it too much. And it just so happens that Volgin punched through the weaker area if you watch the boss fight above.

Furthermore, when Volgin was punching Big Boss he was pulling his punches back for the most part. He wanted to make him suffer. And suffer Big Boss did. He didn't have the strength to fight back. He also wanted to keep him alive for interrogation.

So in conclusion, the explosion should at the very least have a good effect on John. At the very least, he'd be disoriented momentarily and thus giving Boba an opening.

Does Rahm really have that many feats? He kinda gives me a jobberish vibe.

And zombies aren't that difficult to outsmart. Starkiller lost all his intelligence and skills - the things that actually make him powerful. Beating a berserker zombie Batman isn't really that impressive, for example.

And both of those fighters were forced to go close quarters with Boba Fett - a very bad idea when he can easily maneuver around them and use his weapons to their fullest advantage. Against Big Boss and Black Panther, range will be his worst enemy.

Rahm Kota fought Starkiller, who was trained by Darth Vader himself for nearly his entire life and abuses use the of Force Speed. Keep in mind though that almost every single one of of Starkiller's victories were circumstantial. You can ask JediXMan and Silver if you want. I'm sure they'd love to write a novel about it… ;). He also fought a large variety of monsters for three days straight once, and he ripped a large part of a space station apart with TK.

The deformed Starkiller wasn't exactly a zombie, though funnily enough Boba's fought those too ;). And a beserker zombie Batman would still be a decent challenge actually. He still has a physique, his armor, and so on. And one could almost say that he would still have his H2H combat skill since it's practically a second nature. In fact, I remember a certain someone making that exact point once upon a time ;)

Not really… Jedi are highly skilled in CQC. One would think that a Jedi would demolish Boba, since their swordsmanship ability is heard of throughout the majority of the galaxy. But Boba was trained by Jango Fett, the man who developed an unnatural raw fighting ability that enabled him to kill 20 Jedi with his bare hands. Almost all unenhanced human beings don't have what it takes to contend with Jedi. But Boba does, and has done it several times.

And to be fair, Boba's H2H skill isn't really common-knowledge because he's known to be the galaxy's greatest bounty hunter, not the galaxy's greatest Jedi slaughterer.

Because the feed mechanism is shaped like an infinity symbol, obviously.

… Fair enough...

I still find Boba's arsenal far superior. The Patriot is your only prayer, and Boba has plenty of goodies that could easily wound, kill, incapacitate, or KO him. And he knows how to use them. Plus, the video says the Patriot inaccurate and has to be reloaded after 100 rounds. And he'd probably be even more inaccurate after feeling that explosion (assuming he lived). And since Boba has sufficient cover behind the Tumbler, I doubt that John will be able to do much to Boba by the time he has to reload. And once he does I honestly see Boba not giving him a chance to reload. Boba would unleash blasts from his EE-3 carbine blaster rifle, his Dur-24 wrist blaster, maybe an explosive or two, or maybe even his sonic detonator. Big Boss is also out in the open with no cover really, and I really don't recall any showing of Big Boss's agility that'd convince me that he'd last against such a payload out in the open.

And you said yourself that it'd take a while for John to get through to Boba.

Boba has a bit more protection but would still get eaten up eventually.

Snake and Panther vs Boba and Predator vs Hei. Worst case scenario Snake shoots Hei a few times then comes back.

Boba and Hei are on the same team… And you have the Predator. So that doesn't make sense...

Your blow-up-the-tumbler tactic will help you win a few rounds, but there is simply way too many variables to call it a definite win. Whether Panther just disables the vehicle before it gets anywhere near us, or we manage to dodge it, or we tank it, or hell, maybe the tumbler won't even explode (this isn't a movie after all, we'll most likely just be dealing with the effects of Boba's missile filtered through an armored tank, and honestly both of these warriors have taken far worse than that). But whereas that is your major advantage, team Panther Boss has one major edge over you at the same time, and that is the simple fact that if you lose track of us for just one moment - nay, all that needs to happen is one of us gets away - then it's basically all over for your team. Big Boss and Black Panther both posses the firepower and strategic mind to end this battle instantly, if afforded the chance through stealth, and keep in mind, they are both stealth masters.

No, there really isn't. I've discussed just about every single "variable" there. It doesn't matter if Panther stops the vehicle. The vehicle will still be close to you and Boba can still shoot the muffler. As for dodging, I expected you to dodge it. The thing you two can't get in your heads is that the explosion occurs while you're dodging the Tumbler. Read the example scenario that I gave Higor (second to last counter). I've discussed tanking it as well. There's only so much you can tank with the tourney rules. And I'm not convinced your team could tank the explosion regardless of the rules in the first place.

But it just not exploding? This isn't a movie??? Are you somehow implying that my strategy is unrealistic? And worse, not having any supporting evidence that it is??? How on God's green earth is an explosive not going to be amped up by jet-fuel? If you want I could go scan a page where Boba's mini-concussion missile (on a lower setting) snipes a dog by tracking it's heat signature. You saying my strategy is unrealistic and then not giving an ounce of proof of why it is unrealistic is really just… insulting.

And stealth is quite honestly a non-factor here. I mean didn't we go over this with the argument against Predator's cloaking? Not only are you out in the open, thus making it really impossible for John at least to utilize stealth at all, but we have several abilities that renders stealth useless. Not even the cloaking device of T'Challa would be of much help for numerous reasons. One, the heat and the inferno of the explosion would probably make him seeable anyways. Two, Boba has several methods of detection. He has vision modes such as infrared and HUD. And he also has sensitive audio filters which can pick up a whisper from about 30 yards away over the sound of a speeder, and can sense something as silent as the changing of the safety on a blaster from like 15 ft. above him in a rowdy cantina.

Read from right to left

Three, Hei has an uncanny sense of tactical awareness (as shown in the video earlier), and would probably find either person cloaking or no. But I'll let @floopay back up his guy.

Snake clearly has the stealth skills needed to elude Boba and Hei - after all, jungle infiltration is his specialty. Yes Boba has his visor, but really he's hardly the first character with thermal imaging and a heart beat sensor to still be outwitted by Naked Snake. There's plenty of cover around, and since Snake is stated as specializing in camouflage, there's no way for Boba to spot him, if he doesn't want to be spotted. From there, it's just a matter of tactically trapping the area and probably blowing Hei up, and then moving on to Mr. Mandalorian armor.

You haven't shown a single stealth showing that really concerns me. The last one was cool and all but it didn't show a counter against infrared. I fail to see how the hell you're supposed to counter that. You haven't shown a video where Naked Snake gets by somebody with infrared or anything like with stealth alone. You have to prove that Snake could really do that, and not just say he could without any proof that's relevant to him countering said infrared without any evidence. Furthermore, I highly doubt Big Boss has what it takes to outwit Boba. Boba is damn smart. He beat the freaking Darth Vader though his cunning, wits, and ability to gain a tactical advantage. Darth Vader, the guy who has murdered hundreds of Jedi in combat, the guy who can tear down cathedrals with the Force, start sand storms and avalanches, telepathy to communicate with Luke outside of a planet, etc. He is on a completely different level than most Jedi. And again, Boba beat him through pure wits.

Well… It should be mention that Boba didn't technically beat him, but it's revealed that he could have if he wanted to.

You're probably wondering "Wait, shouldn't have Vader have sensed that blaster bolt coming?". Well no. Several times, Vader's emotions has clouded his Force sense. Fear of losing the casket would explain why he didn't sense that coming. But anyways, Boba actually could have killed Vader after he shot him in the head, but didn't and thus Vader used the Force more aggressively. And from there Boba kicks the casket off in order to save himself and so on. But later (and I really gotta get the scan for this), it's revealed that Boba could have also killed Vader while he was retrieving the casket, but didn't because he knew if he killed Vader the whole might of the Empire would be on his head. And there'd be no profit in that.

Also, there isn't really any cover for your guys. Your guys are out in the open, and only the nearby fallen tree could be used for cover. Not that'd it help, as Boba's blaster could effortlessly shoot through that. And any type of cover period would most likely not save Snake from being detected. Boba can tune up his infrared if he needed to. And it has seen through things before.

Penetrates a Gorog's thick hide.

So ya, I don't see stealth being much of an issue for Boba at the very least. Again, I'll let @floopay make an argument for Hei.

#39 Edited by HigorM (3236 posts) - - Show Bio
#40 Posted by Fetts (4080 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Give him like a day or two. I can probably PM him.

#41 Edited by Floopay (7700 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: @higorm: @fetts:

Comicvine ate half my post, editing.

Honestly, 90% of my last post has yet to be addressed, and I have no reason to really make any new points, at this point, I'd just be reiterating what I've already said.

One of the big problems with debates like this, is that I myself find people just keep posting the same thing over and over again and nobody finds the time to read it anymore. So I'm just gonna post a summary and just a few relevant scans to prove whatever new points I'm making, and from here on I'm gonna keep things short and sweet, because nobody is going to care to read much more than a summary post anyway.

Summary:

Hei and Boba go in, set the Tumblers on Auto-Fire for both missiles and automatic weaponry. It has shown it can pivot it's turrets on some level, so they should sweep a good portion of the battlefield.

Boba creates fire and havoc. Targets the team, because of his auto-sensors, and uses his immense mobility and ranged advantage to pretty much take down two melee fights from a distance. Honestly, with his mobility I don't see how team 2 has any chance of tagging him, especially when he can fight from ABOVE the smoke, and use his extra sensory equipment to fight from above.

Neither of the opponents team has any real chance against him, and that's what's going to be the best advantage. Energy daggers are nice, but they are useless against someone who is fully armored in equipment that is quite literally designed almost specifically against explosives and energy weapons (lightsabers, blasters, grenades, rpgs, etc.). And neither of the other team can get high enough to melee strike him, because they have to jump through smoke and fire (which will blind them, burn their lungs, and burn their eyes, mostly the smoke doing this, not the fire), so there goes that. He can just sit and camp from above with absolute ease.

Then we have Black Panther. The guy is running around a forest, on a hot day, dressed in all black. Over and above this he is wearing an insulated suit, which is DESIGNED to....well....insulate. All of his body heat will be trapped within his hot black suit. Over and above this, he's running around in a forest fire, which is only going to exasperate the situation. T'challa is going to exhaust himself extremely quickly. Over and above this he has to cover a lot of ground to get to our Tumblers, and dodge around both their, and Boba's ranged attacks. Most of which contain fire.

Finally, we have Big Boss. Who has no means of harming Boba as long as he keeps his height advantage, or stays at distance to be honest. Even in melee there's not much he can do to that Mandalorian Armor.

Now there's Hei. Big Boss can't hurt Hei unless he uses his explosives, which aren't very likely to hit him to begin with. In melee, on touch and Big Boss is dead. It doesn't matter if he stands up to volts or amps. Hei destroys somebodies central nervous system when he hits them. As long as Big Boss has a central nervous system, neural pathways, and etc. He'll be affected. Even Hei's Shockwave should at least stun him, and just one second of being off his game and Big Boss is going to in danger of death.

Then Black Panther verse Hei. Hei has the mobility advantage via his wire. Black Panther's energy daggers aren't over useful, as proven in my previous post, Hei's power disrupts energy weapons, and can actually destroy them (against the lightsabre chick). Over and above this Hei isn't wearing a big black insulated body suit in the middle of a forest fire, so he's got the stamina advantage. Finally, his skill can at least compete with Black Panther in a fair one on one battle, but add in the exhaustion factor, and Black Panther isn't doing much.

As for the Anti-Metal Claws, Hei's already shown that he can disrupt molecular decomposing attacks by stabilizing the atomic structure of his suit. Cutting though Hei is going to be extremely difficult, and though being Vibranium is an advantage, it's not an end-all against something like Hei's jacket in combo with his powers.

Relevant Scans.

Hei's Molecular Stabilizing Abilities:

As promised, here's the scans:

Hei Speed and Ability

Here's some more on Hei's skill and whatnot. This guy is superior to Hei physically in every capacity. The guy blasts through steel with the utmost ease, and so much more. He also has senses heightened to the point where he can tell what's happening a half mile or more away with absolute precision by feel, sound, and smell through this entire concrete structure. With such perfect senses, he can accurately predict everything that's going to happen before it happens. Yet Hei is still able to dodge around him, and fight with him relatively on par. Though initially he actually loses this fight, I'll explain more in the next set of scans after this:

Hei shows molecular manipulation on a very minor degree here, and it ultimately leads to him beating the other guy by taking him off-guard long enough to gain the upper hand (which is only a matter of half a second at best). Notice, he can only really use this from a range of about a meter, and it requires concentration (though in later scans he can do it while fighting, he doesn't seem to be able to take advantage of his other abilities and use it simultaneously). The most he does is making gunpowder less volatile.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#42 Edited by HigorM (3236 posts) - - Show Bio
#43 Edited by HigorM (3236 posts) - - Show Bio

@fetts

Alright let´s finish this shall we?

1. Sure, one blow from Hulk, HULK. There´s anyone on your side able to replicate the feat? I guess not. Not to mention that the version of Black Panther I´m using here possess a far more advanced suit and physical stats, so that comparison proves nothing. So basically T'Challa can tank as many punches or hits or whatever the tourney rules allow.

2. Multiple layers of armor means nothing for energy daggers, that won´t save your guy at all. Those feats also means crap, considering that the energy daggers act and react in a different way, so doesn´t matter if he tanked a garbage truck or a RPG, since the daggers doesn´t make blunt damage so those feats are really meaningless. Let me break it down for you:

  • Energy Daggers: energy constructed blades. The wielder has the ability to gauge between power levels, releasing a beam, powerful enough to slice through various structures and foe. This weapon can also be fired as a projectile. Energy daggers are T'Challa's default weapon of choice in armed combat situations.

3. I can dispute it very well. That´s a shortcoming tactics. I mean, trying to make a vehicle explode near a team composed by a superhuman character (superhuman agility/senses), who not only possess enough reaction speed, considering he was able to react fighting the likes of Wolverine and Spider-Man before, but also the best protection among the others involved here to take any damage it might display. Not to mention the most obvious options that is to neutralize the goddamm Tumbler from distance, since that´s also another option available for him, by using the energy daggers. Don´t forget that Black Panther is on pair with Tony Stark and has already taken him in a fight where he was wearing a suit made especifically for him, so I believe he is more than acquainted to dealing with armor and suits. Not to mention that with this silly tactic, Black Panther have a clear shot to take Boba down, considering he´s there trying to shoot the jet fuel of the Tumbler. T'Challa is smart enough to realize this and take the opportunity to neutralize him.

4. So Black Panther doesn´t know what he´s facing prior to the battle huh? How about your guys, did they know? In matter of fact, Black Panther is the only one here able to either track or sense the enemy beforehand, yes, that´s right, and you know why? I show you:

  • Superhuman Senses: The Heart-shaped Herb elevated T'Challa's sense of sight, hearing, and smell. His superhuman senses enables him to see within complete darkness and hear sounds that ordinary humans can not. T'Challa has memorized thousands of scents and is proficient in tracking them. His sense of smell is powerful enough to allow him to smell fear and detect if someone is lying, by sensing a change in their body odor.

Now you add his recent power level enhancement he received from the Panther Goddess and you have someone who can track your team by distance and be more than prepared to deal with them when the time comes. Also, the energy daggers are always previously setted for battle. Not matter what they were built for these kinds of situations, to rip metal, disable force-fields, etc. and he can shoot several of them at one single swing of his arm, so he won´t waste any time here at all.

5. I believe this scenario is more than a pressuring situation, considering my team already dealt with other enemies and are aware of the possibility to face even more enemies ahead, and the similiar particulars that all 3 of them (T'Challa, Naked Snake and the Predator) possess, they shouldn´t have any problem at all when the time comes for them to use their best resources for a bigger cause. Predators are smart enough to realize this instead of putting themselves into an unecessary conflict.

Also, about his preparation prowess, I believe you should read the arc Black Panther: The Man Without Fear which happened after the Shadowland event, the Daredevil series was renamed Black Panther: Man Without Fear beginning with issue #513 and Black Panther: The Most Dangerous Man Alive with issue 523.1. The premise of this series saw Black Panther take over as the protector of Hell's Kitchen after the events of Shadowland forced Daredevil to leave NY in order to deal with his own morality issues. This also spun out of the events of Doomwar, which left T'Challa needing to deal with his moral issues and leaving his nation in the care of his sister Shuri.

So basically this description of the first issue of the arc sums up what I´m talking about: In the wake of Shadowland, there’s a new protector of Hell’s Kitchen! He has no kingdom, no vibranium, and no high-tech safety net--just bloody knuckles and the will to prove himself in a foreign land where the fiercest of jungle predators stalks the most dangerous urban prey! His name is T’Challa, and in the aftermath of Shadowland, he will create a new life, a new identity, and learn what it is to be a different kind of hero.

6. Let give you another scenario. Boba uses the remote control and makes the Tumbler speed towards Black Panther, oh no! Boba has just been striked from head to toe by several energy daggers! Multiple shots to the body and he´s down! His armor/suit couldn´t take the damage and now the space mercenery is bleeding on the ground! He was not expecting that one, that´s for sure! I can´t believe you still insist with this, that´s just silly. T'Challa will just teleport away from the Tumbler and next to Boba and then he is out, simple as that, why should he bother using his agility to avoid it if he can just teleport away? Come on!

7. As far as durability, first, T'Challa isn´t packing the Promethium armor, so your point starts from a erroneous premise. The promethium armor doesn´t possess the ability to absorb damage, not to mention that with the recent upgrade, the suit is even more capable of dealing with such damage. It´s called the Panther Habit, as chieftain of the Wakandan Panther Clan, the ruler is crowned with a ceremonial regalia in the form of a vibranium laced panther habit. T'Challa received this crown-like garb after being judged by the Panther Goddess. This uniform has the ability to absorb vibrations via its vibranium lacing. It also has the ability to negate and/or lessen powerful kinetic based attacks such as bullets shots, penetrating blades, and crushing blows. The lenses in the mask cut glare and enhance the Panther's natural night vision. It also allows him to see in infra-red and other visual spectrum. The suit features cloaking technology. Second, yes, he have better endurance than Slade, also considering the upgrade, since even without it, T'Challa's ability to endure and resist damage is exceptionally high for a human. His body can withstand powerful crushing blows and puncture wounds. The effects of the Heart Shaped Herb, combined with a vibranium-laced suit, allows T'Challa to heal at an accelerated rate far superior to the average man. About the recent upgrade:

  • King of the Dead: As of late, T'Challa has relinquished his title as Wakanda Monarch to his sister, and has since then become the overseer of Wakanda's "City of the Dead" (The Necropolis). Upon becoming the "King of the Dead", the Panther Goddess granted T'Challa a blessing that elevated his power levels. The blessing also gave T'Challa the ability to access the knowledge and experiences possessed by previous Wakandan kings/queens.

As far as teleportation goes, I sincerely doubt BP would use it. He's hardly used it before. And he only used in fighting, not avoiding things. I sincerely doubt he'd reflexively turn on his teleportation device.

8. So he is packing a telportation device, which he used before in a combat situation, but he will not use here to "avoid things"? Come ON! REALLY?!

What the hell are you talking about? T'Challa has never killed Tony. He might have hurt him, but that's far from the same thing as killing him.

I never said killed, I said ripped, refering to his armor, and he did it twice already.

#44 Posted by nickzambuto (11423 posts) - - Show Bio

What a mess of a debate. I'm going to try and summarize my points quickly and concisely in hopes of salvaging a win. Final post time; I'll split it into two sections, one dealing with the scenario of my character (Naked Snake) taking on Boba Fett, and the other dealing with the scenario of my character taking on Hei, and explaining why, frankly, he wins either way.

Big Boss vs Boba Fett

I like Boba Fett. He's not the toughest soldier in the world, but he's smart, and he's efficient. Unfortunately for him, the little tricks and feints he usually uses to achieve victory won't work here because he's going up against the man who invented half of them, and pioneered the rest on recommendation from Kaz. There's a reason they call him Big motherfocking Boss.

Intelligence-

Like I said, both tactically and strategically, Boba Fett is out of his league against the original Snake. This man has singlehandedly brought the entire United States Government to it's knees with prep - twice. He's the only person alive who could challenge the Patriots themselves directly and live... or at least he was until his clone did the exact same thing. Not only that, but his 180 IQ has matched wits against some of the smartest people in all of Metal Gear, and almost always comes out on top - Major Zero, Gene, Hot Coldman, Vladmir Zadornav, even Revolver Ocelot. The trend seems to be continuing in Phantom Pain with Skull Face. And of course, all three of his clones went on to become prodigal military strategists themselves. Now, I will be the first to admit that Naked Snake was legitimately outsmarted several times throughout the series, but not only did he always come right back around and win in the end, but as he grew older, this stopped being a problem all together to the point where Boss was subtly manipulating all those around him by pretending to be manipulated himself, when really he had already planned 50 moves ahead.

Liquid Snake claims that Big Boss's "military mind" was "unparalleled throughout the world." And it's true; who else could build their own mercenary force from literal scraps into one of the most powerful nations on the globe, four times. Big Boss founded FOXHOUND, and under his leadership, the outfit became the most highly regarded and dangerous military agency in America that was strictly assigned only the absolute blackest of black ops, to the point that their agents were considered the modern day version of ninja. He's basically Ra's al Ghul in the army.

Strictly in terms of direct combat, Snake has been quoted as memorizing the Pupa's combat patterns in seconds, the Pupa being a HIGHLY advanced artificial intelligence battle tank designed to fight armies. The quote comes from the mech's main engineer, Huey Emmerich, which he immediately follows by stating that such a thing should be impossible. Snake is known for reading his opponent's moves and anticipating attacks. He adapts as he fights, and excels at thinking on the fly, displayed when he noticed a flaw in Revolver Ocelot's shooting technique almost instantly upon meeting him, and exploited said flaw to take out the entire Ocelot Unit. Additionally, Snake managed to deduce Null's identity based simply on his fighting technique, and also deduced Professor Galvez's true identity immediately after shaking his hand, then went on to further deduce that the mercenaries Galvez hired Snake to destroy were really CIA, and finally Snake wraps things up by easily deducing the CIA's exact plans in Costa Rica. Deduction skills are important against a foe who relies on his guile as much as Boba Fett does. All things considered, Snake should see through any ruse the bounty hunter attempts, and manipulate it to his own ends.

Weaponry-

This is close. On one hand, Boba Fett is second only to the dark knight in terms of pulling-whatever-the-situation-calls-for-out-of-your-ass-skills. But on the same note, I feel like most of his standard weaponry isn't a very big threat to Snake. Blasters? Snake has dodged gunfire from much better marksman. Missiles? As if John hasn't shot those down plenty of times. Flamethrower? Snake already beat The Fury. And it's not as if the soldier can't match all of this anyway. He's got a variety of pistols, machine guns, sniper rifles, shotguns - basically any firearm you can imagine, including revolvers which he can actually use to ricochet bullets to an extent. Snake is also a crack shot with an RPG, he's packing explosives of all kinds, C4, grenades, even flash bangs and incendiary grenades. The sneaking suit offers minimal ballistics protection and actively applies pressure to inflicted areas to minimize blood loss.

Not only does Big Boss have a military arsenal in his pants, but he's an expert at making use of highly unorthodox gear to suit his needs. Perfect example is the classic cardboard box.

Sure it might be more fetish than practicability, but Snake certainly finds some expert uses for it.

To top it off, all of his gear is wielded with the absolute upmost of skill to boot. Just look at the way he cleverly gets rid of a pursuing tank.

C4 isn't enough to destroy the tank, but blowing it off the side of a mountain gets the job done.

In the end, Snake's greatest weapon is his Patriot. I've already posted the feats for the gun - there really isn't much more to say. It should be obvious that Boba's armor is going to get eaten up. I mean, Mandalorian armor is tough... but Snake looks better in a tux.

Accuracy-

This is important since Snake and Fett will probably end up having a shootout. They each have advantages that level each other out - Big Boss is an expert bullet dodger and even a bullet timer on certain occasions. Meanwhile, Fett's armor protects him from that which he can't dodge. His jetpack grants him a certain amount of maneuverability but that thing can only remain airborn for 60 seconds anyway, plus it is infamously super sensitive. So sensitive in fact, that it resulted in Boba falling into the sarlacc pit - three times. In fact, that might actually be a weakness Snake picks up on and exploits. All it takes is a feather's worth of pressure and that thing goes crazy; Fett had better watch his back, literally.

Anyway, whereas each fighter has the ability to defend against a few blasts or gunshots, I am certain that Snake will end up doing the most damage. Not only is he a fantastic marksman, but Snake actually has plenty of experience fighting foes with air superiority. A perfect example is Cunningham, a skilled mercenary who blitzed around on a flyer shooting missiles at Snake. Sounds pretty similar to Boba himself actually.

Snake shoots down a cipher with an RPG from a distance of over 3,000 feet away.

Snake destroys the Chrysalis by shooting it's AI Pod through the thick fog while the mech is flying erratically, very very far away.

Snake solos a brigade of snipers

Big Boss is displays as extremely knowledgable in shooting techniques and maneuvers. Whereas Batman and Daredevil have technical knowledge on pressure points, Big Boss knows the tricks to firearms inside and out. He's been seen as not only recognizing the techniques used by Ocelot and EVA, but improving on them.

I see Snake as definitely a superior marksman to Boba Fett.

Big Boss vs Hei

I'm exhausted. Can I prove why Snake owns Hei tomorrow? ^.^ @higorm @fetts @floopay

#45 Edited by HigorM (3236 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay:

So let me respond to your last post ok?

1st paragraph:

While Hei and Boba waste their time in a futile strategy, Black Panther, Big Boss and the Predator will be already in motion, finding the best location to strike your team, after all, you are dealing with 3 expert hunters inside a favorable battlefield. Three expert hunters with the ability to become invisible, since T'Challa is packing a cloaking device, same to the Predator and Naked Snake possess camouflage abilities, not to mention that my guy can just teleport them away from the tumblers and next to the enemy team. Black Panther is the one with enhanced senses here, he is the one who can track your team from distance, using his superhuman senses to find them as soon as the battle starts. As said before:

  • Superhuman Senses: The Heart-shaped Herb elevated T'Challa's sense of sight, hearing, and smell. His superhuman senses enables him to see within complete darkness and hear sounds that ordinary humans can not. T'Challa has memorized thousands of scents and is proficient in tracking them. His sense of smell is powerful enough to allow him to smell fear and detect if someone is lying, by sensing a change in their body odor.

Not to mention that T'Challa manage to escape from a situation where he was unenhanced and protecting an innocent. First he need to fight against hand ninjas, who were there to slow and tire him, while Typhoid Mary and Lady Bullseye. He manage to dodge all attacks comming from them while holding the hostage and then use some sly shamens technique to escape. The scan also shows a car exploding next to him, which didn´t make any damage.

Not to mention the body language reading skills Black Panther exhibit before against the superskrull he tear down. It´s a good display of tactic and reflexes. It also proves he doesn´t possess the traditional heroes morals.

2nd paragraph:

Yeah the vain tactic still goes on. Well, I can´t see a clear reason to prove that this is actually an advantage for your team. Black Panther can really on his senses to track the enemy, and is skilled enough to tag the likes of Wolverine and Spider-Man. Not to mention that Boba Fett isn't a speedster, so I can´t see why T'Challa would have any trouble tagging him. Smoke means nothing to him, and I will show you why in the next paragraph reply.

3rd paragraph:

I don´t see that way. He isn´t armored against energy daggers, something totally knew for him, something he doesn´t expect to deal with. Not to mention that the last "fully armored" Fett end up without his head after dealing with a light saber, so bad chice of words my friend.

Also, he doesn´t need to fly to strike him, he can just shoot the daggers against Boba. Now jumping through smoke and fire? Why should this be a problem for him? First, his superhuman senses enables him to see within complete darkness and hear sounds that ordinary humans can't, second, his vibranium suit possess air filters, so there won´t be not blinding or lungs and eyes burning, the suit covers and protects his entire body. T'Challa will just walk through all that like a terminator and strike him down hard.

Air filters scan that shows BP fighting 2 enemies in the middle of a smoke cloud:

There´s also another instance where he´s using a gas mask (which is as standard as the rest of his gear), while fighting Red Skull who was exposed to a contagion..

4th paragraph:

That´s quite funny, because frankly I can´t remember any instance or passage that shows this kind of issue with the vibranium suit. T'Challa already manage to fight against many enemies without any problem. Just to name an example, he already manage to take on Killmonger without his vibranium suit for 13 hours with only 1 hour breaks in between. Not to mention that at the time Killmonger has studied black panthers fighting style, and has shown skill enough to stalemate Deadpool. In this fight killmonger had been upgraded physically. Black Panther took punches from a guy strong enough to kill an elephant by tackling it and also demolished an oak tree.

Not good enough? How about the next feats? Black panther goes through the following with in 5 days:

Wounded from a previous battle manages to kill a white gorilla:

Spends 3 days in the desert tracking Sombre. His acidic touch reopens black panthers wounds from his previous battles. Black panther survives despite this.

Kills a t-rex and uses a palm tree as a sling shot:

Black panther is then bound to a cactus. He ignores the pain. And he gets attacked by a pterodactyl. He survives and defeats his captor and makes it to wakanda in 2 days. That is when black panther finally collapsed.

Remember that all that was done in 5 days.

So Black Panther will be exhausted? The King of Wakanda will be exhausted? The guy who not only uses the heart shaped herb but also received he upgrade from a Goddess? Are you freaking kidding me??

5th paragraph:

Sorry but you didn't proved anything so far. Black Panther can compensate any mobility advantage with his teleporter. The daggers aren´t the only weapon he is packing in this scenario, not to mention that I doubt Hei can disrupt a flurry wave of daggers trown at him. Again with that claim? I can´t believe Ié just read this, Hei gets the STAMINA ADVANTAGE!? Oh my GOD!!

  • Superhuman Stamina: Years of conditioning and training, combined with the effects of the Heart Shaped Herb, allows T'Challa to exert his body to higher degrees of stress.

So are you telling me that Hei possess superior stamina than I guy who was trained for several years, in the jungle, later eating a herb who granted special abilities, further enhancing all his physical stats, and and to top it off he was also blessed by the Panther Goddes which further elevated his power levels. I hardly disagree with Hei being superior to him in this area. The whole insulated argument makes no sense since the character didn´t had any problem with that before, so I hardly believe he´s going to have now. In top of all that, and just to show how pity the argument is, Black Panther doesn´t even have to waste his time running considering that he is packing a freaking TELEPORTER, so cut the crap please :P

Last paragraph:

T'Challa already managed to tag fast and agile enemies before. He possess ways to strike him from multiple direction, throw several daggers in one move, teleport to close the distance, become invisible (does Hei have an answer for invisibility?), and so on. Not to mention that his suit will prevent any attempt of attack Hei may use against him, that considering Hei will manage to tag him in the first place. Black Panther only need one single strike to put Hei down, but you can´t say the same for T'Challa, Hei will need to strike him a lot better than Iron Fist, and frankly I don´t see this happening without taking a proper counter strike back to his body. As far as I´m concerned, Hei doesn´t have a healing factor or another form of durability, so he´s going down first.

#46 Posted by HigorM (3236 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: no problem mate, I believe I´ve finished my part :)

#47 Posted by Fetts (4080 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm I have to be honest. I feel like you're ignoring much of what I've been telling you. It seems like you're repeating yourself with the very points I just countered, and using said points to somehow counter my counters. In other words, I kinda feel like I've been go around in circles with you. I hope that doesn't sound rude. But it's simply how I feel. Thus, I'm just going to quote myself in a good portion of this response.

1. @fetts

It may be able to absorb kinetic energy and vibrations and whatnot, but not to that extent. This is the freaking Hulk. He easily packs a bigger punch than Iron Fist. Black Panther has had the wind taken out of him from far inferior opponents like Red Skull, 60's Captain America, a rhino, etc. Heck even Black Panther himself admitted that one blow from the Hulk should kill him!

Even if T'Challa could tank punches from Hulk so easily, it'd be against tourney rules anyways.

Durability and the whole "vibranium suit absorbing" bit are one and the same. There's no difference. Durability is how well you can take/absorb damage. The vibranium suit falls under durability. And with the durability limits of Deathstroke's Promethium armor, there's only so much Black Panther can take.

Read from right to left--Here we see an explosion roughly the same size as the one that's going to be produced in this battle. Slade definitely didn't shrug that one off.

2. I'm not sure if you realize it, but I was referring to one specific setting when I brought the multiple layers of armor bit.

@fetts

Ok you're not listening to what I'm saying. I'm saying that Panther could neutralize the Tumbler. He has a couple of ways, but due to the durability of the Tumbler it would probably take a certain special setting. And if T'Challa did have to spare even a couple of precious seconds to set the dagger, the Tumbler might already be too close for him to use it. In which case he'd have to avoid the Tumbler! The very point I was making in my opening post! I in no way believe that T'Challa couldn't avoid the mass of the jet-powered beast. I 100% believe that he couldl. But the explosion that'd happen immediately afterwards? It's not as likely.

And even if one did the trick, the Tumbler would still crash near your team. That's all I'm trying to accomplish with that: Get the Tumbler close to your team. Whether you disable the electronics or make it crash is irrelevant. You can't dispute that the Tumbler wouldn't get close to your team, and you can't dispute that the jet fuel wouldn't be available for Boba to shoot.

3. @fetts

Here's the thing, by sending the Tumbler on a collision course towards your team, I've already forced you to utilize your agility prior to the explosion. So let me just give you an example of what it might look like: Boba uses the remote control and makes the Tumbler speed towards your way. Black Panther proceeds to flip over the Tumbler. Stop! Right there T'Challa has already utilized his agility. So he's in mid-air, flipping over the Tumbler. And as he's in mid-air, Boba shoots his mini-concussion missile into the large muffler of the Tumbler.

This makes it impossible for T'Challa to avoid the explosion since he was in the middle of avoiding the Tumbler.

Durability and the whole "vibranium suit absorbing" bit are one and the same. There's no difference. Durability is how well you can take/absorb damage. The vibranium suit falls under durability. And with the durability limits of Deathstroke's Promethium armor, there's only so much Black Panther can take.

Read from right to left--Here we see an explosion roughly the same size as the one that's going to be produced in this battle. Slade definitely didn't shrug that one off.

4. @higorm

So Black Panther doesn´t know what he´s facing prior to the battle huh? How about your guys, did they know? In matter of fact, Black Panther is the only one here able to either track or sense the enemy beforehand, yes, that´s right, and you know why? I show you:

  • Superhuman Senses: The Heart-shaped Herb elevated T'Challa's sense of sight, hearing, and smell. His superhuman senses enables him to see within complete darkness and hear sounds that ordinary humans can not. T'Challa has memorized thousands of scents and is proficient in tracking them. His sense of smell is powerful enough to allow him to smell fear and detect if someone is lying, by sensing a change in their body odor.

I feel I went over this somewhere in the beginning. Not sure though. Anywho, if this was Round 1, I'd agree that this tactic would be fairly ridiculous since it works so conveniently well. However this is not Round 1. While it's true that our team does not know of your team's abilities, our team has already encountered a variety of individuals with great speed and agility among their other gifts. Since they have come across similar people, it is only reasonable and realistic for Boba to both expect that your team also has enhanced speed and agility, and to make the precaution of using an AoE attack (his missile).

@higorm

So Black Panther doesn´t know what he´s facing prior to the battle huh? How about your guys, did they know? In matter of fact, Black Panther is the only one here able to either track or sense the enemy beforehand, yes, that´s right, and you know why? I show you:

  • Superhuman Senses: The Heart-shaped Herb elevated T'Challa's sense of sight, hearing, and smell. His superhuman senses enables him to see within complete darkness and hear sounds that ordinary humans can not. T'Challa has memorized thousands of scents and is proficient in tracking them. His sense of smell is powerful enough to allow him to smell fear and detect if someone is lying, by sensing a change in their body odor.

Now you add his recent power level enhancement he received from the Panther Goddess and you have someone who can track your team by distance and be more than prepared to deal with them when the time comes.

Irrelevant. The scenario I made for this match made each team perfectly aware of the other before the actual battle ensued.

5. @higorm

I believe this scenario is more than a pressuring situation, considering my team already dealt with other enemies and are aware of the possibility to face even more enemies ahead, and the similiar particulars that all 3 of them (T'Challa, Naked Snake and the Predator) possess, they shouldn´t have any problem at all when the time comes for them to use their best resources for a bigger cause. Predators are smart enough to realize this instead of putting themselves into an unecessary conflict.

That is not pressure at all. That is the awareness of possible danger, something they deal with every day of their lives. But that by no means puts them in a dire and pressured situation where they absolutely must have a special weapon. As for the Predators being that logical (which is saying a lot for a warrior race I hope you realize), prove it.

@fetts

Throughout the majority of the AvP movie the Predator was killing the humans simply because they had his plasma caster. A Predator would never share his technology with another species.

And protecting Hell's Kitchen has nothing to do with prepping. And with taking the Predator's plasma caster being an unrealistic option...

@fetts

using the resources around him? Sticks? Stones? Vegetation? What device is Black Panther going to make out of these? Especially one that is superior to what he's already got in his arsenal? That's not something I see Black Panther doing. He doesn't need sticks and stones. He already has sufficient gear.

6. @higorm

Let give you another scenario. Boba uses the remote control and makes the Tumbler speed towards Black Panther, oh no! Boba has just been striked from head to toe by several energy daggers! Multiple shots to the body and he´s down! His armor/suit couldn´t take the damage and now the space mercenery is bleeding on the ground! He was not expecting that one, that´s for sure! I can´t believe you still insist with this, that´s just silly. T'Challa will just teleport away from the Tumbler and next to Boba and then he is out, simple as that, why should he bother using his agility to avoid it if he can just teleport away? Come on!

My tactic is silly? Your scenario is by far more laughable. Firstly, it is completely unlike T'Challa to reflexively ignore the immediate threat completely. That alone makes your scenario unrealistic. A jet-fuel-powered Tumbler is raging towards him. He doesn't have time to ponder about less immediate threats when his natural training and reflexes would compel him to either dodge or attack the Tumbler.

Secondly, I find it very amusing how your strategy has taken such a drastic change. First we talk about Panther's ability to dodge the Tumbler. Then to neutralize the Tumbler. And when those all else fails since the first two don't save you what do you do? You make an unrealistic scenario where BP completely ignores the Tumbler that's about to send him to kingdom come, and instead diverts all of his attention to Boba, a far less immediate thread. A scenario that seemingly has the basis of knowing that Boba is going to fire his mini-concussion missile into the Tumbler despite the fact that BP has no precognition. A scenario that assumes that BP even knows he has a mini-concussion missile, despite the fact that they haven't faced anybody with one prior to this battle. And as such, he has no reason to make so much as a precaution. Constantly changing your story makes me think you're reaching. And I'm sure the voters will think the same.

Thirdly, considering the speed of the Tumbler there's no way he'd have time to both aim at a more distant and smaller target, throw them, and activate his teleportation device before he gets hit. Speaking of the teleportation device,

@fetts

As far as teleportation goes, I sincerely doubt BP would use it. He's hardly used it before. And he only used in fighting, not avoiding things. I sincerely doubt he'd reflexively turn on his teleportation device.

Fourthly, he wouldn't be aware that Boba is using a remote-control right off the bat if at all. So why would you think he'd attack him when he is not aware of the remote control, since Boba is controlling it from behind the other Tumbler and thus out of view?

Fifthly, the fact that you think Boba doesn't have the reflexes to dodge mere thrown objects, which are significantly slower than the speed of blaster bolts (which he's dodged on several occasions) is silly. Boba would easily avoid them.

7. @fetts

Durability and the whole "vibranium suit absorbing" bit are one and the same. There's no difference. Durability is how well you can take/absorb damage. The vibranium suit falls under durability. And with the durability limits of Deathstroke's Promethium armor, there's only so much Black Panther can take.

So yes, BP can "absorb" damage. But only to the same extent as Deathstroke's ability to absorb damage. I mean do you realize how unfair it'd be (and I speak for everybody in the tourney, not just myself) if I allowed Black Panther to be completely impervious to kinetic energy (ignoring the feats that disprove that)? BP must abide by the durability limits. Period.

8. @higorm

So he is packing a telportation device, which he used before in a combat situation, but he will not use here to "avoid things"? Come ON! REALLY?!

Correct. Throughout the entire history of Black Panther's appearances, he has avoided danger via his agility. We have not seen one single moment where we see Black Panther using his teleportation device to avoid danger. So if T'Challa has utilized his agility every single time to avoid danger and his teleportation device zero times, then his reaction would clearly be to dodge rather than teleport. It's been the way he's reacted for all these years, it's highly doubtful that'll change.

I'll get to @nickzambuto's post tomorrow or so.

#48 Posted by Fetts (4080 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto

I like Boba Fett. He's not the toughest soldier in the world, but he's smart, and he's efficient. Unfortunately for him, the little tricks and feints he usually uses to achieve victory won't work here because he's going up against the man who invented half of them, and pioneered the rest on recommendation from Kaz. There's a reason they call him Big motherfocking Boss.

To what tricks are you referring to exactly? You have me at a bit of a loss there. Boba uses his skill, speed, weapons, gadgets, and cunning to get him through his unique hunts. Whether it's a horde of zombies, a Hunter Trainer droid, a rancor, or Darth Vader himself, Boba gets by with his gifts that make him the greatest bounty hunter of all time. Not through some list of tricks he's concocted.

That opening paragraph sounds like a sexy salesman pitch and all, but let's take a look at the facts that we've been through and the facts soon to be brought up.

Intelligence-

Isn't going to save you from an explosion.

Like I said, both tactically and strategically, Boba Fett is out of his league against the original Snake. This man has singlehandedly brought the entire United States Government to it's knees with prep - twice.

And? That's just one country my friend. Boba's not only had the fate of entire planets in his hands (Concard Dawn, Solem, Traska, and so on), he's had the fate of the Galactic Empire in his hands when he had the chance to kill Darth Vader. He's also So if we really want to compare their track records for government-busting, Boba leaves Big Boss in the dust in that regard.

He's the only person alive who could challenge the Patriots themselves directly and live... or at least he was until his clone did the exact same thing. Not only that, but his 180 IQ has matched wits against some of the smartest people in all of Metal Gear, and almost always comes out on top - Major Zero, Gene, Hot Coldman, Vladmir Zadornav, even Revolver Ocelot.

Difference between Big Boss and Boba Fett: Boss has been an enemy of the Patriots (an organization that only has control over a fraction of a planet) and lived through it. Boba has been both an Enemy of the Empire, Enemy of the Rebellion, and enemy to nearly every single bounty hunter in the galaxy and lived through it. The first two alone are particularly large as their organizations run throughout the entire galaxy. And those are just his usuals. Nevermind he's outwitted Prince Xisor, a Faleen who was able to scheme right under the very noses of Darth Vader and Darth Sidious. Plus, he's not only blackmailed one, but two Hutts during a schism of there's. Hutts, as you probably know, are the top dogs when it comes to the massive galactic criminal underworld. And to go even further, Boba Fett manipulated the entirety of the Bounty Hunters Guild for his own ends.

Point is, Boba Fett has consistently outwitted key individuals who have used their wits to become some of the biggest and most successful people in the entire galaxy. And Boba Fett has consistently disrupted and/or manipulated the empires that stand behind them.

Now, I will be the first to admit that Naked Snake was legitimately outsmarted several times throughout the series, but not only did he always come right back around and win in the end, but as he grew older, this stopped being a problem all together to the point where Boss was subtly manipulating all those around him by pretending to be manipulated himself, when really he had already planned 50 moves ahead.

Big Boss won't get a second chance when facing Boba Fett.

Liquid Snake claims that Big Boss's "military mind" was "unparalleled throughout the world." And it's true; who else could build their own mercenary force from literal scraps into one of the most powerful nations on the globe, four times. Big Boss founded FOXHOUND, and under his leadership, the outfit became the most highly regarded and dangerous military agency in America that was strictly assigned only the absolute blackest of black ops, to the point that their agents were considered the modern day version of ninja. He's basically Ra's al Ghul in the army.

As off-topic as organization leadership skills are, Boba was the leader of the Mandalorian Protectors. Now, building up from scratch is a harder task I will grant you. But to be elected as leader of what was already regarded as an elite group of warriors is still impressive nonetheless. Think about that for a moment. Yes, Big Boss had a harder task to perform with training and whatnot. But what's more of a compliment? Having to build from scratch with your "little cheese" people and make them into "big cheese" people? Or being so impressive that you're nominated as leader of the "big cheese" people at the start?

Strictly in terms of direct combat, Snake has been quoted as memorizing the Pupa's combat patterns in seconds, the Pupa being a HIGHLY advanced artificial intelligence battle tank designed to fight armies. The quote comes from the mech's main engineer, Huey Emmerich, which he immediately follows by stating that such a thing should be impossible. Snake is known for reading his opponent's moves and anticipating attacks. He adapts as he fights, and excels at thinking on the fly, displayed when he noticed a flaw in Revolver Ocelot's shooting technique almost instantly upon meeting him, and exploited said flaw to take out the entire Ocelot Unit. Additionally, Snake managed to deduce Null's identity based simply on his fighting technique, and also deduced Professor Galvez's true identity immediately after shaking his hand, then went on to further deduce that the mercenaries Galvez hired Snake to destroy were really CIA, and finally Snake wraps things up by easily deducing the CIA's exact plans in Costa Rica. Deduction skills are important against a foe who relies on his guile as much as Boba Fett does. All things considered, Snake should see through any ruse the bounty hunter attempts, and manipulate it to his own ends.

Indeed. Deduction skills would be useful against an opponent like Boba. However Big Boss is most likely not going to get the chance to utilize said deduction skills. Not with the whole "Tumbler-explosion" tactic that would make his brain rattle at the very least. Of course, that's assuming he still possesses consciousness.

This is close. On one hand, Boba Fett is second only to the dark knight in terms of pulling-whatever-the-situation-calls-for-out-of-your-ass-skills. But on the same note, I feel like most of his standard weaponry isn't a very big threat to Snake. Blasters? Snake has dodged gunfire from much better marksman. Missiles? As if John hasn't shot those down plenty of times. Flamethrower? Snake already beat The Fury. And it's not as if the soldier can't match all of this anyway. He's got a variety of pistols, machine guns, sniper rifles, shotguns - basically any firearm you can imagine, including revolvers which he can actually use to ricochet bullets to an extent. Snake is also a crack shot with an RPG, he's packing explosives of all kinds, C4, grenades, even flash bangs and incendiary grenades. The sneaking suit offers minimal ballistics protection and actively applies pressure to inflicted areas to minimize blood loss.

Blaster bolts: I wholeheartedly agree Big Boss could dodge.

Missiles: Really? I think you're bluffing. I personally think you would have brought this up by now if he really has done it so often. Why don't you show us a feat or two? And is there a feat where's he's both dodging one projectile (like say a Tumbler) and showing such accuracy at the same exact time?

Flamethrower: Big Boss beat the Fury in an enclosed environment with corridors, twists, turns, and so on did he not? I think Big Boss would have more trouble with Boba's flamethrower in an open environment.

Every single firearm you mentioned would be useless. Bullets wouldn't get through that Mandalorian armor, let alone the Tumbler. As I believe I already posted, Boba has tanked blaster bolts and practically tanked a missile.

C4, RPGs, and all of those explosives are good and all but they're not as nearly as good as Boba's explosives. Boba's explosives are maneuverable and easy to use. Where as goodies like RPGs and C4 are more complicated to use. Also, I don't think flash bangs would work very well against Boba. I think his helmet would pretty much negate the effects of them.

Not only does Big Boss have a military arsenal in his pants, but he's an expert at making use of highly unorthodox gear to suit his needs. Perfect example is the classic cardboard box.

I fail to see the relevance of this.

To top it off, all of his gear is wielded with the absolute upmost of skill to boot. Just look at the way he cleverly gets rid of a pursuing tank.

C4 isn't enough to destroy the tank, but blowing it off the side of a mountain gets the job done.

Gameplay isn't applicable because it's non-cannon.

In the end, Snake's greatest weapon is his Patriot. I've already posted the feats for the gun - there really isn't much more to say. It should be obvious that Boba's armor is going to get eaten up. I mean, Mandalorian armor is tough... but Snake looks better in a tux.

I've been over this.

@fetts

The Patriot is your only prayer, and Boba has plenty of goodies that could easily wound, kill, incapacitate, or KO him. And he knows how to use them. Plus, the video says the Patriot inaccurate and has to be reloaded after 100 rounds. And he'd probably be even more inaccurate after feeling that explosion (assuming he lived). And since Boba has sufficient cover behind the Tumbler, I doubt that John will be able to do much to Boba by the time he has to reload. And once he does I honestly see Boba not giving him a chance to reload. Boba would unleash blasts from his EE-3 carbine blaster rifle, his Dur-24 wrist blaster, maybe an explosive or two, or maybe even his sonic detonator. Big Boss is also out in the open with no cover really, and I really don't recall any showing of Big Boss's agility that'd convince me that he'd last against such a payload out in the open.

This is important since Snake and Fett will probably end up having a shootout. They each have advantages that level each other out - Big Boss is an expert bullet dodger and even a bullet timer on certain occasions. Meanwhile, Fett's armor protects him from that which he can't dodge. His jetpack grants him a certain amount of maneuverability but that thing can only remain airborn for 60 seconds anyway, plus it is infamously super sensitive. So sensitive in fact, that it resulted in Boba falling into the sarlacc pit - three times. In fact, that might actually be a weakness Snake picks up on and exploits. All it takes is a feather's worth of pressure and that thing goes crazy; Fett had better watch his back, literally.

Actually, I've been recently informed that blaster bolts go at relatively the same speed as bullets do. Most people think blaster bolts are much slower based on the original movies. But apparently in the majority of showings they're supposed to move as fast as bullets.

Anywho, do I seriously have to go through the 60 second time-limit thing with you again? I could swear I've been over this with you several times. Boba's jetpack has no such limit. The only places it is stated in is from some encyclopedia book and Wookiepedia (which used said encyclopedia book as a reference). However, feats say otherwise. Boba's jetpack has carried him through canyons, mountain ranges, been at high altitudes while trying to snipe Starkiller from a falling Star Destroyer, and then flying out of the way of said Star Destroyer (which would take time since it's very large). Every single feat would suggest that Boba's jetpack has no such limit.

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*sigh* You're usual over-exaggerating and twisting of stories yet again. This gets tiring nick. In fact, I'm willing to bet you don't even know how he fell into the Sarlacc the other time (I thought it was three times originally but apparently it was just twice). In the first instance, as we all know, Han accidentally triggered the jetpack. That whole thing was due to plot device since Boba did not need all day to aim at Luke, nor would he have forgot about or ignore his arch nemesis Han and his waling rug Chewy lying right next to him. Realistically he would have just shot them. In the second time, a Jawa sandcrawler crashed into the Sarlacc Pit with him inside. Had nothing to do with his jetpack. Boba's jetpack has been hit by a blaster bolt and it didn't randomly ignite. I could get the scan if you wish. But it was really the one PIS instance in the movies.

Anyway, whereas each fighter has the ability to defend against a few blasts or gunshots, I am certain that Snake will end up doing the most damage. Not only is he a fantastic marksman, but Snake actually has plenty of experience fighting foes with air superiority. A perfect example is Cunningham, a skilled mercenary who blitzed around on a flyer shooting missiles at Snake. Sounds pretty similar to Boba himself actually.

Well you shouldn't be. Not only does Boba's durability in both his armor and his kevlar-like clothing limit his options, Boba has great reflexes, a Tumbler for cover, air superiority, and great air maneuverability.

Snake shoots down a cipher with an RPG from a distance of over 3,000 feet away.

Please stop making crap up. Nobody's going to believe that that RPG missile just traveled 10 football fields in that video.

Snake destroys the Chrysalis by shooting it's AI Pod through the thick fog while the mech is flying erratically, very very far away.

Snake only successfully hit it when it was visible, close-by, and stationary.

Snake solos a brigade of snipers

He can snipe goons with sniper rifles. It's good but not astonishing.

Big Boss is displays as extremely knowledgable in shooting techniques and maneuvers. Whereas Batman and Daredevil have technical knowledge on pressure points, Big Boss knows the tricks to firearms inside and out. He's been seen as not only recognizing the techniques used by Ocelot and EVA, but improving on them.

Boba's arsenal is alien to Big Boss. He wouldn't know the ins and outs of Boba's arsenal.

Boba's Arsenal

You know, it just occurred to me that I haven't given a proper showing of Boba's weaponry. So without a further ado:

Boba has arguably one of the most lethal arsenals in the world of street-levelers to go with that awesome skill of his.

Here are a couple scans that showcase the weapons he packs with him on his way to work (the ones that are legal in this tourney that is).

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Weapons Shown:

-EE-3 Carbine Blaster Rifle: His pride and jewel. The higher settings on this baby are capable of obliterating large vehicles and disintegrating people (hence the famous Darth Vader quote "No disintegrations").

-Thermal Detonator: Not to much more powerful than the typical frag grenade really. But it's nice to have a pocketful of explosives.

Forgot to add this one to the list. Yes, the flame nearly engulfed half the fortress, but as you can see there is little structural damage and thus the force of the detonator isn't that astounding.

-Sonic Detonator: A grenade that releases high frequency sound waves designed to incapacitate. It's even effective against sophisticated technology such as the droid PROXY.

-Z-X Flamethrower: The ultimate cooking machine. This thing actually has unique properties that allow the flame to set non-combustible items ablaze (such as durasteel, glass capsules, etc.). On a higher setting, it has enough concussive force to snap large, thick flames. Impressive for a flamethrower no?

-Dur-24 Wrist Blaster: A neat trick up Boba's sleeve… See what I did there? ;)

-Stun Dart Agents: Knocks a target out unconscious upon contact.

-Mini-Concussion Missile: On it's highest setting, it can completely obliterate a large droid the size of an X-Men Sentinel. That setting of course, will not be used here as per tourney rules. But having a missile launcher that can be fired very quickly is certainly useful.

-Wrist Cord: For grappling purposes.

-Jetpack Missile: As shown, it's powerful enough to blow up a large portion of an alleyway.

-Concentrated Deeb Spray: Releases a toxin that knocks a person out instantly. It has after effects as well. More specifically it makes the person feel strange. The man who was knocked out by it in this scan said that he felt like he had extra thumbs.

Boba is also infamous for being "the man in the Mandalorian armor". That Mandalorian armor is made of a fine duraplast material that enables him to tank blaster bolts easily, and resist a direct impact from an explosion. Note that I say resist and not tank. While it's practically tanking, it's not completely tanking. Boba certainly felt the impact and certainly had a helluva stomach ache. So he is in tourney limits.

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Boba's helmet is also very handy. It has several vision modes such as HUD (Heads Up Display) and infrared. It also has sensitive audio filters, gas filters, and an oxygen supply for when he has to go out into space.

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My Conclusion and Analysis

Alright, I've played your little game. Now it's my turn.

You have made a critical error. In your "response" you pretty much gave us an introduction to your character. Something most debaters would intelligently do in the beginning of the debate. Instead, you gave us a list of feats and abilities of Snake and completely failed to address the problems he would face in this battle. Either you forgot or you can't counter them successfully. Let's run through the problem John faces again.

-Big Boss is going to have a Tumbler come at his way. As we agreed he would use his agility to avoid it. While both he and Black Panther are utilizing their agility to dodge the Tumbler, they will be unable to do anything about the missile fired into the muffler system of the Tumbler causing a massive explosion that'd catch both John and T'Challa. This explosion would either kill, KO, or seriously injure John.

-If John is still conscious after that, he will not be in his best fighting condition by far. Both Boba and Hei could easily take him. Although, as we have been doing throughout this debate, a legitimate case could be made for Boba or Hei beating Big Boss wounded or not.

-If John faces Boba, his only hope is the Patriot. Due to Boba's durability, reflexes, and speed, John's best bet is something that is both powerful and easy to maneuver. Thus, the Patriot is his only hope. But as I've discussed, the Patriot is inaccurate to begin with. And in John's weakened state, he will be all the more inaccurate. Furthermore, Boba is behind a Tumbler, which is very sufficient cover. And lastly, Boba completely outclasses Big Boss in terms of weaponry.

-If John faces Hei, Big Boss's firearms will be useless against Hei in several ways. One is that Hei has minor matter manipulation, and has the ability to disable any firearm John wields as he has disabled firearms with this power before. Also, Hei has a cloak that should be able to shrug off anything John fires at him as @floopay has proven. Thus, this will go into close combat, where Hei undoubtedly will win due to his speed, combat skill, and his ability to one-shot him with his electricity manipulation. John may have resisted electrical attacks before, but none like Hei's.

Honestly, I think I'm done. I'm sure @floopay would like to get in another word, but I think I'm ready for voting. Assuming my evil nature of responding to counters that I said I would not respond to does not take over.

#49 Posted by nickzambuto (11423 posts) - - Show Bio

To what tricks are you referring to exactly? You have me at a bit of a loss there. Boba uses his skill, speed, weapons, gadgets, and cunning to get him through his unique hunts. Whether it's a horde of zombies, a Hunter Trainer droid, a rancor, or Darth Vader himself, Boba gets by with his gifts that make him the greatest bounty hunter of all time. Not through some list of tricks he's concocted.

By "tricks" my point was that Boba Fett often defeats his opponents with tactics and guile more than anything else, which isn't a bad thing. But my entire post was about how Big Boss isn't outmatched in that department, and so he won't be taken off guard. He's a consistent bullet timer, and avoiding things like missiles would be a simple task for him considering he destroyed Metal Gear RAXA while it was enhanced by Ursula, with her powerful telepathy and precognition.

Gene even went on to say that only Snake could have destroyed it as the FOX Army gawk over his amazing feat in utter shock.

And later on, he destroyed the even more powerful Peace Walker which was piloted by an extremely advanced artificial intelligence, and equipped with virtually every weapon imaginable ranging from gatling guns and drill missiles and rocket launchers, to flamethrowers and S-mines, to an EM pulse field and paralysis beam.

Point: Big Boss can dodge anything Boba Fett throws at him, considering he's dodged pretty much the exact same arsenal from a precog and an AI automatic targeting system, both of which would be much more accurate than the bounty hunter.

Meanwhile, Boba Fett isn't much of a bullet timer. Yeah he can fly through blaster bolts to a degree, but that's while going full speed on his jetpack. In a combat situation he can't do that, least of all against an expert marksman. The Patriot will either eat his armor away, or cause Boba to explode like it did to the drone in my first post.

The Tumbler still isn't a problem since like higor and I said, they can either A) jump away and avoid the blast completely, B) survive it with minimal injuries just like Snake survived RAXA's explosion at 12:20 of the first video, or C) Black Panther can teleport us all away in an instant.

Please stop making crap up. Nobody's going to believe that that RPG missile just traveled 10 football fields in that video.

Actually, an RPG missile travels 900 FPS, just short of a bullet. It took nearly 4 second since Snake launched it to hit the Cypher, so therefore over 3,000 feet :) the scene follows the missile so we can't really tell how far it's traveling, but the time it took tells us everything.

And what do you mean about the Patriot being inaccurate? It's true that's the reason it wasn't mass produced, because no normal soldier could handle the recoil. But the entire point behind the gun is that The Boss could handle it, and fire with pinpoint precision onehanded no less, much to Sigint's astonishment, and when Boss passed the gun down to Snake, he inherited that skill too, since he surpassed her.

#50 Edited by Fetts (4080 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: You're lucky I checked on this cause you forgot to tag me.

By "tricks" my point was that Boba Fett often defeats his opponents with tactics and guile more than anything else, which isn't a bad thing. But my entire post was about how Big Boss isn't outmatched in that department, and so he won't be taken off guard. He's a consistent bullet timer, and avoiding things like missiles would be a simple task for him considering he destroyed Metal Gear RAXA while it was enhanced by Ursula, with her powerful telepathy and precognition.

Gene even went on to say that only Snake could have destroyed it as the FOX Army gawk over his amazing feat in utter shock.

And later on, he destroyed the even more powerful Peace Walker which was piloted by an extremely advanced artificial intelligence, and equipped with virtually every weapon imaginable ranging from gatling guns and drill missiles and rocket launchers, to flamethrowers and S-mines, to an EM pulse field and paralysis beam.

Point: Big Boss can dodge anything Boba Fett throws at him, considering he's dodged pretty much the exact same arsenal from a precog and an AI automatic targeting system, both of which would be much more accurate than the bounty hunter.

I don't think I need to counter the vids really. I think they can speak for speak themselves, and they don't impress me. The bosses either couldn't aim, the weapons weren't as fast and efficient (I'm talking about the missiles from the Peace Walker), Big Boss had cover, and/or he took damage (and probably would have been dead outside of gameplay mechanics). None of those will factor here.

Meanwhile, Boba Fett isn't much of a bullet timer. Yeah he can fly through blaster bolts to a degree, but that's while going full speed on his jetpack. In a combat situation he can't do that, least of all against an expert marksman. The Patriot will either eat his armor away, or cause Boba to explode like it did to the drone in my first post.

You just said he can avoid blaster bolts while flying… That hypothetical is a combat situation. And again, the Patriot is inaccurate.

The Tumbler still isn't a problem since like higor and I said, they can either A) jump away and avoid the blast completely, B) survive it with minimal injuries just like Snake survived RAXA's explosion at 12:20 of the first video, or C) Black Panther can teleport us all away in an instant.

No. Jumping out of the way it what you're already doing with the Tumbler. Neither of your characters have means of self-propulsion in min-air. So the blast will catch you. Also, the blast is going to be too large to simply jump out of the way anyways. Due to durability limits, Big Boss can't shrug it off with minimal injuries. And I don't think he was standing too close to it anyways. As for the teleportation, I've been over it.

Actually, an RPG missile travels 900 FPS, just short of a bullet. It took nearly 4 second since Snake launched it to hit the Cypher, so therefore over 3,000 feet :) the scene follows the missile so we can't really tell how far it's traveling, but the time it took tells us everything.The video you posted said that the Patriot was inaccurate.

Eh. Fair enough.

And what do you mean about the Patriot being inaccurate? It's true that's the reason it wasn't mass produced, because no normal soldier could handle the recoil. But the entire point behind the gun is that The Boss could handle it, and fire with pinpoint precision onehanded no less, much to Sigint's astonishment, and when Boss passed the gun down to Snake, he inherited that skill too, since he surpassed her.

The video you posted said it was inaccurate.

Skip to 0:36.

@floopay @higorm Either of you want to say something else or do you want to start the voting?