Asgard vs LOTR Evil army (READ)

@the_knight_rhoden: man this is gonna go on for a while, Sauron is basically physically immune to every blow besides that which would cut off his finger with the ring on it. Tell me the enchantments on mjolnir, because as a hammer.. It cannot cut.. Therefore Sauron cannot be killed by Thor..

@THe_Knight_Rhoden: I had a post on my phone but it glitched and never posted lol anyway, I feel Gandalfs ALL of his feats aren't speculative they're just as impressive when you take all of them from every movie as Thor. Honestly, the first thor movie was his best feat with the bridge and destroyer, after that has done nothing that impressive honestly when you break it down but I suppose we'll disagree on that one. Balrog is not an ant, he's still a demon of middle earth a rather large one that Gandalf still killed in a brutal battle while falling down the pits of middle earth, then came back due to his mission not being complete even more powerful as gandalf the white. So I will count his boulder feats as well as his other feats beating Sauron from ridiculous distance, owning him in the deleted scenes. That dumb scene with the WK didn't really defeat Gandalf, all he did was shatter his staff and Gandalf fell over. He didn't even try to attack. But any who that didn't even happen in the book, all they did was grill each other if I'm not mistaken but moving on. I still think Gandalfs higher end feats balrog, beating saruman can make him compete with Thor. Definitely the others, Loki as I pointed out earlier did nothing impressive at all. He shot Thor with his magic staff and mind controlled a few humans. The wizards can do better than that honestly of LOTR.

Yeah I agree nobody is soloing here though the destroyer armor while strong does seem vulnerable to magic so perhaps the LOTR team can defeat it via it's magic, not saying it'll be easy though but if Thors hammer did the job I think Sauron's power and Saruman's magic can too honestly.

Yes I agree, the Ghost Army is too powerful and are not used here. I was only saying that to the other dude who said Thor can solo the entire LOTR movie universe or something or other...so I had to point that out.

Yeah, they changed a few minor things in the movie such as that. Elrond confirmed that the blade that chopped off Sauron's mortal form hand/fingers was enchanted and made by elves, where as the book the sword had a different origin but since you used movie versions I was just stating that.

That's true, indeed I'm just saying Sauron doesn't truly die or get defeated for good til you destroy the ring that's all. I think honestly you should have perhaps Thor without his hammer since Sauron in mortal form is vastly weaker in battle at least as oppose to his essence form where he's pretty much immortal.

You're not thinking in the context of the battle forums, movie Sauron has shown no feats which say that he won't be hurt by Mjolnir, he is never shown to be immune to physical blows, Thor should be able to kill him through sheer power.

Movie Gandalf still doesn't come close to movie Thor however.

Thor never beat the Destroyer using magic, e had to use its own magic against it to kill it, its just that powerful.

Well to be fair, the Asgardians are outnumbered many many times worse than the ratio at Helm's Deep so Mjolnir is very fair.

@The Knight Rhoden: Gandalf the white didnt job he would easily.

Ok, but machines we dont know what effect theyd have in LOTR.

Perhaps but those armies in Thor films weren't that all powerful either.

Movie Thor didn't job either, he simply faced foes that he horribly underestimated (Kurse) and foes against whom he didn't have the chance to unleash his true powers (Hulk).

The Destroyer is what it is, it is not some magically reprogrammable machine, it has solid quantifiable feats which show what its capable of, its beams would have quite the lethal effect on the LOTR evil army.

The frost giant and dark elf armies were entire leagues ahead of any of the evil armies, this is why we have the entire dark army vs Asgard or else this would be a horrible spite match, does Asgard have the cardio to defeat all of the dark armies? If we simply said Asgard vs Mordor it would be Galactus vs Aunt May.

@ the knightrhoden: Im saying in gandalfs case he jobs bigtime compared to his book counterpart. If he didnt hed take this mu team considering he held his own for a while vs sauron the necromancer and totally owned saruman.

Destroyer is impressive but i do think the lotr team can beat it albeit not easily.

Hmmm not sure id say leagues when sauron and sarumans power are more then formidable. I dont see whats stopping either from taking over the armies minds or saruman causing a avalanche spell destroying the asgard army.

I came up with this theory this morning after waking up, and it makes perfect sense, Odin built the Destroyer with a safeguard so Thor could destroy it, because the Destroyer's mouth perfectly fit Mjolnir and that Thor didn't try fighting like an idiot and actually used his versatility right from the get go even though he just got his powers back (people who get their powers back are more likely to job after just receiving them), it implies that Odin actually may have warned/taught Thor how to deal with the Destroyer if it ever got out of hand.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand, Gandalf's book version would probably solo if allowed to use the full powers of his Maiar heritage, but this is the movie version being used in a non PIS setting using actual high end feats. I will once again say that Sauron the necromancer and Saruman haven't really shown any feats of their own which put them above movie Thor in terms of strength, durability, speed and raw power. Gandalf did however show a very powerful feat when saving the dwarves, when he blasted all the goblins away, so that counts as a solid one.

The movie version of Saruman is pathetic and was never shown to have any real feats which are threatening (he only mind controlled one guy, who happened to be a man, and didn't have centuries of experience and didn't have 10000 other Asgardians backing him up), his tossing around of Gandalf was done using telekinesis and Gandalf did not use the powers he used in the Hobbit. Sauron is powerful yes, but this battle is not a long drawn out war, and the Asgardians are on par with elves in terms of experience and age and we never saw Sauron mind control elves in the movies thus he won't be able to mind control a race which has far more experience and willpower and know that he's coming.

The battle is at Minas Tirith and the Asgardians have completely outfitted it with their own defenses which we saw in Thor TDW so the avalanche won't work, the best he can do is cause a lot of rain, but then again Thor has quite some weather control using Mjolnir, so I doubt Saruman can simply do that with no interference.

Or perhaps just not know how to use their powers at first, ie Flash in the show first few shows he's still learning actually but has already come a long way in just a few shows but I see what you're saying. A lot of comic book characters in movies job compared to their comic versions no doubt. Odin probably did since he built it, that would make sense to teach Thor about prior knowledge to beat it.

Yeah, Gandalf in essense is actually more of an immortal angel(in the books at least) this is hinted and way more powerful then the movie version but since you're using movies everyone is toned down a bit. But Gandalf does have a decent amount of movie feats(nothing on par with his book version) Thing is Thor has shown nothing but physical strength and a few booms with his hammer, I don't see him beating Sauron the Necromancer honestly, since he's not even physical. Mortal form? Sure, but essence form? No way. I'd have to see proof of someone hurting him and I just don't see anyone from Asgard doing that but since you're using mortal form I'm sure they can manage for a while at least til he comes back.

Saruman it's true compared to the book didn't do much but just saying the few things he did do from distance spells I think he could deal with asgard team here with that to a degree at least. The gandalf fight I thought was bs because he was struggling so he took his staff for more power lol. After Gandalf came back he pretty much stomped Saruman on a few occassions though. I think Saruman if he preps since you gave them prep can make two staffs and amp his power using TK though we haven't seen Thor take on anyone using TK yet that Iow of in the movies. I'm just saying I don't know how he'd take a TK opponent.

Perhaps, there are other things wizards of middle earth can do though.

@fallingcliffs: what are the impressive feats of "book Gandalf" ?

@Leito: Does it really matter? Since the Movie versions are being used. I think it's already been established that most if not all of these characters have better book feats then movie versions.

@fallingcliffs: Just for curiosity... I often read that Book Gandalf would stomp Movie Gandalf, or that book Saruman is a beast and there is nothing in the books that suggests any of that.

@ Leito: the book was practically godlike at times compared to the movie version. Gandalf i mean and had more feats tgan the movie version.

Saruman by wizard regards is powerful but not on gsadalfs level but i assure you the book versions of gandalf is indeed way more powerful. If youd like i can post things hes done from the books. The op is using movie versions here however.

Thor knows all the ways to use his powers, its just that he never really faces opponents which actually physically challenge him so he rarely ever uses his versatility from the start, as he is used to winning through sheer power.

Have you seen the avengers? That'll show you how Thor has far more than just physical feats. The sheer amount of enemies he took out using that lightning blast was incredible.

I don't see Radaghast the Brown doing it, so which other wizard of Middle Earth is there?

TK is just another form of physical attack, Thor's physical strength is too much for Saruman or Gandalf to overcome using telepathy and don't forget that Thor can simply fly right towards Saruman by throwing his hammer.

But at least we've established that movie Saruman is incapable of doing much here.

@ The Knight: He also seemed to be far weaker in the first movie without his hammer and with little power I've noticed if you remember. I do think Saruman could use his magic to choke Thor in the time Thor is swinging his hammer to do big damage, I don't believe we've seen Thor resistant to TK. But was just saying, they really stressed that whole "you're not ready for your powers etc" in the first one you know?

Yes, I've seen Avengers though he didn't exactly do everything himself. Hulk's super punch IMO was more impressive honestly than anything Thor did in that movie. I thought Thor did better stuff in Thor 2 personally.

No I mean Saruman since Radaghast isn't evil.

TK is physical but it's also not physical, meaning I don't see how Thor stops Saruman from say choking him via magic or tossing him around like he did to Gandalf(granted he took Gandalf's staff) but still. Book Gandalf would totally stop Thor though he has more powers than movie versions easily. Movie versions though I dont know, Gandalf the white was more powerful than Saruman and I believe saruman could give thor issues honestly.

He was not far weaker in the first movie, where do you get your facts from? Saruman could not choke Thor, even a full power punch from Hulk only gave Thor a nose bleed. He is durable enough to throw the hammer at Saruman while he's being choked. They never stressed such a thing in the first movie, they only the stressed the unworthy factor not the you're not ready factor.

You may have your opinion, but Thor's thunder killed 3 leviathans at once and destroyed dozens of their ships, so most people agree that Thor's lightning moment was far more impressive.

I know that Radaghast isn't evil but I mentioned him as a wizard of Middle Earth anyways, but I see your point.

Saruman has never shown any TK feats beyond throwing around an old wizard, it would take TK on a huge boulder level to hurt Thor. Saruman would give Thor no issues since he has never shown any feats which would indicate that he could do so.

Aye the book form of Gandalf would stomp movie Thor, but the comic version of Thor would galactus stomp both movie and book Gandalf, but since this is a movieverse battle I won't speak of it any further here.

The Knight: What I'm referring to...

Pretty sure Thor got shot by a tazer in Thor 1, do you not remember this? He was in the hospital hurt before he recovered or something of the sort before got his power...allow me to refresh your memory, watch the clip above...

I'm sorry but I will disagree, til I see proof of Thor resisting TK I'll still say Sauron can choke Thor. People here underestimate the LOTR team. If a tazer can KO Thor I think powerful magic can harm him.

Of course when he has his hammer and time to charge but I think an evil wizard would still prove a bit of a challenge, so long as he has his staff at least. But yeah I was referring to him not so much radagast.

Not exactly an "old wizard" in that regard, age of the wizards are really irrelevant in LOTR...they are still powerful regardless of 20 years old or 700 years old...just want to get that out there. If anything Saruman's age would probably give him an experience edge over Thor, I know Thor is an immortal or supposedly immortal god but it's been proven that Maia ARE indeed immortal by origin at least in the book. Also, while it wasn't TK per-se it was still his magic spell causing rocks to fall on the mountain upon Gandalf and the fellowship causing them to alter route. Now I'm sure Thor would just fly away from it but if he didn't have his hammer, he'd be crushed...

Depends, on the writer....Thor has been punked and KO by Hulk with little to no effort who is just a brute really. I'm talking just regular thor, he doesn't really do nothing too crazy unless he's amped via WM or Rune King etc. So I'd say book gandalf can take Thor on for sure. But I'm sure Thor's crazier feats would put him above Gandalf, though the ghost army would solo any version of Thor since they're ethereal beings/already dead so Thor isn't doing jack against them. But since this is movie versions that's a whole other story.

Sigh... have you watched the movie? The taser was when Thor was in a mortal body, not his true immortal form.

The taser knocked out mortal human Thor, Asgardian Thunder god Thor would not fall prey to TK.

He does have his hammer, we're using the movie versions and the fight is at Minas Tirith, so no environmental tricks from Saruman except rain. Thor has also been fighting for centuries and has far more experince when it comes to battle.

The CV battles are a place to debate in a non PIS setting with actual high end feats from characters, Gandalf's highest end feats are no match for Thor's highest end feats. But enough of the comic versions, not here.

He was never KO'd by the Hulk, watch the Avengers and you'll see that he never used his true powers and the fight was interrupted.

@the_knight_rhoden: Yes, lol that's what I'm saying my point is Thor isn't always so powerful in the movie versions...

We'll have to disagree on that one, til I see proof of Thor reflecting TK I will say Saruman can use that at least against him. I mean come on, he's a powerful wizard not a chump...

That's still middle earth though where Saruman has lived far longer than Thor or most others here(besides Sauron being one of course) Saruman is also old, just pointing that out. Sauron is no doubt older than both Thor and Saruman.

Again debatable, Hulk and others weaker than Gandalf the white book version have KOed or beat thor just saying..regardless of pis, still canon.

Yes he was knocked out by hulk(comics I mean) not movie versions..here *sigh*

You were saying?

@fallingcliffs said:

@the_knight_rhoden: Yes, lol that's what I'm saying my point is Thor isn't always so powerful in the movie versions...

We'll have to disagree on that one, til I see proof of Thor reflecting TK I will say Saruman can use that at least against him. I mean come on, he's a powerful wizard not a chump...

That's still middle earth though where Saruman has lived far longer than Thor or most others here(besides Sauron being one of course) Saruman is also old, just pointing that out. Sauron is no doubt older than both Thor and Saruman.

Again debatable, Hulk and others weaker than Gandalf the white book version have KOed or beat thor just saying..regardless of pis, still canon.

Yes he was knocked out by hulk(comics I mean) not movie versions..here *sigh*

You were saying?

Those are all scans of Thor jobbing and not using his real powers in a fight, if he actually used the godblast which he used against Exitar I doubt Rulk or Hulk would be standing. Anyways, the battles on comic vine are debated using the highest end feats from characters, not some scans where they were beaten via PIS. But enough of comic scans this is not the place!

I can also call myself a really old wizard of Middle Earth, but its just a title, and at the end of the day until we see my feats I'm not much other than someone claiming a really badass title for himself, the same goes for Saruman, we've seen no feats from him which put him above Thor.

@The Knight Rhoden: lol Thor wasn't jobbing, clearly he was striking Hulk and Hulk punked him. It's canon, hate to disappoint ya. Thor is often overrated. PIS is relative, I mean people like to brag about Dr. Doom stealing Power cosmic and Beyonders powers(because that's totally not pis) yet when he got beat by squirrelgirl and others not powerful "it's PIS" I love the contradiction of some fanboys on here. Not you per-se just in general. Thor is one of those characters people tend to make excuses for when he loses... And how do you explain Hulk crushing his "might hammer"? I mean I know obviously that's silly, but it also shows perhaps Thor's mjorlnir isn't all that powerful? hmm

It's not just a title, they're maia essentially angelic, immortal and powerful race. They're NOT human...nor a mere man.

Its PIS because Mjolnir has taken far more than Hulk in the past and survived, him losing is due to CIS because he never uses his powers against Hulk, in this fight Thor is informed and in a non PIS and CIS setting. Shall I show you 5 other scans of Thor owning both of those?

The Knight: Maybe, but Hulk still beat him so PIS or not still canon...since Marvel hardly if ever retcons anything.

I'm sure Thor has beaten Hulk, but Hulk is gotten beaten by CA and Spiderman, yet Hulk has beaten Thor...

Asgard wins.

Hulk is actually considered to be a low level foe for Thor, considering we've seen him take on people like Mephisto, Exitar, Ego the Living Planet and Galactus. He's also beaten Silver Surfer quite a few times too, someone that beats the Hulk a lot. But ABC logic doesn't work here so I'm not using those as arguements.

My point is that THIS IS AN ASGARD VS LOTR EVIL ARMY THREAD NOT A COMIC THREAD!

Lets go back to that, in summary since movie Saruman has shown no feats which put him at Thor's level we must assume that he is no match for him, he may have a snazzy title and supposed experience but at the end of that day we use feats on CV.

@ The Knight: I'm sure via power ranks that's true, I'm just posting facts concerning canon MU via comics. I don't believe thor has ever actually beaten Galactus though(not normal Thor at least), I think SS has beaten Thor too if I'm not mistaken.

I know, I only pointed that out since you said "Hulk never beat Thor"

But anyway, I'll keep my stance said previously.

Aye, and I won't argue comics here anymore, but Saruman has shown no feats with TK which will ever put him at Thor level so you can keep your stance but the logic speaks for itself.

@ theknightrhoden:Well true but logic also says thor has never faced anyone doing such, so til i see him doing sucj. Its not out of the realm of possibility that saruman can use tk against thor.

Now that I look at the rules, I really dont think the destroyer was necessary if you're so confident Thor can beat this team alone what's the point then? Seems like a biased made match then...

Guys, the destroyer is in this battle. It will incinerate legions at a time. It took Thor repelling its own blast back into its mouth for it to die. No one in Middle Earth can do anything like that. Sif outright impaled it and nothing happened. Asgard in a stomp.

@Havenless: If that is true...Then this is obviously a mismatch if that's true ^ with a predetermined winner...I don't believe Asgard nor LOTR team stomps though.

Thor cannot beat the team alone. We're arguing Saruman vs Thor, and although Thor hasn't faced TK he still wins 8 out of 10 due to him having 20x more individual feats. I never said Thor would solo, and he never will.

@the_knight_rhoden: Ok, was just going by what you were saying earlier about Thor's feats and such. Since this is a team match I suppose other players will make a difference. But sure fair enough I guess.

I was just saying what Saruman COULD do, not saying he's fair or succeed. I think the match itself as before could really go either way depending.

It could go either way indeed, but Saruman won't be the key player here Sauron will be. The question is whether Sauron can damage the Asgardians enough to demoralize them by taking out their key players, and then the rest of the evil horde finishes the job. Thor vs Sauron would be a very good fight.

It's a team battle right? So I think overall most will be a player, but some more than others. i'm sure some would argue both Saruman and Loki are weaker links here.

The fight between Thor and Sauron will determine the fight between Sauron and Odin, if Thor can beat Sauron then it's all well and good anyways, but if Thor loses, he will at least wound Sauron enough that he'll be defeated by Odin. But yes Loki is the weakest link on the Asgardian team, but he's an insanely strong weak link who's able to toss around people like Captain America and use magic of his own, so I doubt he'll be easily taken out by the evil army, since he's also backed up by 10000 other Asgardians and heroes.

@ The Knight Rhoden:I see, not to downplay Loki I think him fighting Thor was impressive but CA ehh he's just an average metahuman so I don't consider that a great feat personally. I think The LOTR team would toss him around too honestly. The Thor vs. Loki fights were good. But yeah I dont see either team being taken down easily here.

He's not terribly great, but nothing short of a cave troll will give him trouble, so bring them out. I can definitely see Saruman using TK on Loki though, and Sauron would kill him with one mace swing.

The evil army's main asset is their sheer numbers, not their quality or anything. I'll once again say that all the defenses from Thor TDW are outfitted on Minas Tirith, so expect thousands of evil army soldiers to be killed by the second.

The question is whether 10000 Asgardians can win against against an army of millions.

The_Knight_Rhoden: The Cave Trolls are annoying but can be taken down, now a Balrog would be more interesting against Loki lol. Well outside of Sauron and Saruman, they're quality like Destroyer and Thor. Loki ehh he's alright, the LOTR has the army but most of them are just grunts. Curious though, for the army amount it's in the millions? Or are you going by just some movie shots where I think they confirmed in TTT that there was 10,000+ or 100,000 roughly? Or is that your rules of millions? Cause that's a lot lol

I mean millions by the combined might of Mordor at Pelennor and the Black Gates, plus the Uruks at Helm's Deep, plus all the mercenaries who aided them alongside the Rhun and goblins of Moria who attacked the dwarves and elves of Mirkwood up north.

So yes, it is in the millions.